The White House Tacks Right On Illegal Immigrants In Health Care Reform

[Updated below]

Little noticed amid all the hubbub over Rep. Joe Wilson’s “You Lie!” screech last week was the decision by Obama’s senior advisers to plant the White House to the right of both House and Senate Democrats on the issue of illegal immigration in the health care reform bill. To understand how, one must get a bit in the weeds of the policy debate.

In his speech last Wednesday, Obama announced that “the reforms I am proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.” To this, Wilson screamed that Obama was lying. Most reporters and fact checkers, including me, determined that it was Wilson who was wrong. That’s because both the House and Senate bills, as laid out last week, included language explicitly banning federal insurance subsidies from going to illegal immigrants.

Republicans like Wilson, however, say those bans are not enough, for two broad reasons–enforcement and indirect subsidies.

As for the first issue, they worry that there will not be clear enforcement mechanisms to prevent illegals from violating the law and getting away with it. In response, lead health reform negotiator, Max Baucus, the Montana Democrat, has subsequently announced that social security numbers, or a documentary equivilent, may be required to get the subsidies. Some Republicans are still not satisfied, but most observers say there is little risk anyway of illegal immigrants trying to join the program in any large number.

The second objection, indirect subsidies, involves the health care exchange. The exchange will be established by the government, but it will function like a private store, primarily offering insurance products from the private sector to individuals who have trouble getting insurance, and others who cannot afford insurance. (Liberals in Congress, and the president, hope that the exchange will also offer a “public option,” which will be a government run health plan sustained by paying customers, though the likelihood of that plan passing the Senate is in serious doubt. The exchange might also offer “co-op” plans, which would be private non-profit companies established with public assistance.) The federal subsidies I mentioned above are designed to be spent in the exchange. Qualifying citizens would be allowed to enter the exchange, pick an insurance product that meets certain benchmarks, and then have the federal government pay part of the tab. Non-citizens would not qualify for the subsidies.

But would illegal immigrants be able to purchase insurance on the exchange with their own money? This is where the White House has diverged from the House Democrats’ bill and from the early framework of the Senate Finance Committee. The House bill and the Senate framework from last week were silent on the question of whether or not illegal immigrants could spend their own money in the exchange. (Admittedly, this is a largely hypothetical dilemma, since there are not a large number of illegal immigrants who are likely to use this option.) But last week, the White House took a stand on exactly this question, issuing this statement:

Under President Obama’s plan, undocumented immigrants would not be allowed to enter the exchange. People who are lawfully present in this country would be able to participate in the exchange.

Though the political reasons for taking this position are not in doubt, the White House stand does present a potential policy irony. The purpose of the exchange, and health care reform as a whole, is to decrease the number of people who avoid insurance and choose instead to get health care in hospital emergency rooms, a cost that is eventually picked up by the local, state and federal government. By frustrating the opportunities for illegal immigrants to purchase insurance with their own money, the White House position suggests that those here illegally could continue to cost public money by using emergency rooms. In other words, by banning illegal immigrants from paying their own way on the exchange, it is possible that the taxpayer cost of health care for illegal immigrants would be higher, not lower. Though the signs from the Senate are a bit mixed, the Finance Committee is likely to adopt Obama’s no-exchange standard.

There is another argument, which has been made in some corners, by opponents of the President’s plan: Illegal immigrants will benefit from the insurance reform components of the health care overhaul. Under the current bills, for instance, insurance companies would be forced to stop dropping people from coverage, or barring people from signing up for new coverage, because of pre-existing conditions. These reforms would apply even in the non-exchange private insurance market, where no law bars illegal immigrants from buying coverage. But then this argument could be applied to almost any sort of regulation by the federal government. There is, after all, no way to prevent illegal immigrants from benefiting from broad policies, like regulations reducing the amount of lead in children’s toys or the amount of  air pollution.

UPDATE: Rep. Luis Gutierrez, an Illinois Democrat, blasted Obama Monday, in Spanish, for his decision to bar illegal immigrants from entering the health insurance exchange to use their own money. ABC News has this report:

Referring to the Obama Administration, Gutierrez said: “Those who should be our friends, our allies, are more and more giving Rep. (Joe) Wilson, R-S.C., exactly what he wants to continue with this prejudice against our community.”. . .

She continued:

“What is the administration’s answer [to Wilson]?” asked Gutierrez. “To give him exactly what he said from his hatred. . . “

Related Topics: exchanges, joe wilson, Barack Obama, Health Care
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  • square1

    Honestly, I understand why Americans do not want to pay for the medical care of people who are not legally in the country. But if we are going to prevent people from PURCHASING medical insurance, why stop there?

    Why should illegal aliens be served in restaurants or buy movie tickets or buy from clothing stores? Clearly the only solution is national I.D. cards that must be produced to purchase any good or service.

    I look forward to the day when every purchase is as safe and patriotic as passing through security at an airport. There may be a learning curve as our entire retail sector adjusts to checking various passports and visas. However our economy will soon be humming along without the spectre of illegal aliens buying anything.

    I can only imagine a few minor hiccups. Like our courts getting bogged down with litigation over whether a sick person who purchased a health insurance policy while on a work visa but who has overstayed their visit may subsequently have payment for treatment denied. Or whether a family policy is valid if some members are legally here but others aren’t. But that is contract litigation, not tort litigation, so it is good.

  • gysgt213

    I’m just wondering when it became necessary to turn a healthcare bill into an immigration and enforcement bill.
    .
    The federal government can not track who is here illegally and who is not. Who is authorized to work and who is not. Yet now, so how the health insurers are going to be expected to?
    .
    What happens when stolen social security numbers kick off actual legal Americans? What is the recourse for them? Another list you can’t get off of like with the TSA claiming 2 year olds and elder grandmothers are terrorists.

  • jcapan

    Greenwald:

    “What’s really happening with these protests is that the genuine rage and not unreasonable economic insecurity of these citizens is being stoked, exploited, distorted and manipulated by movement leaders for entirely different ends. The people who are leading them — Rush Limbaugh, the Murdoch-owned Fox News, Glenn Beck, business-dominated organizations of the type led by Dick Armey — are cultural warriors above everything else. They’re all in a far different socioeconomic position than the “middle-income Americans” whose anger they’re ostensibly representing. Their principal preoccupation is their cultural contempt for various groups (illegal immigrants, the “undeserving” poor, liberals) and their desire to preserve the status quo whereby the prime beneficiaries of government policies remain themselves: the super rich and the interests that control Washington. It’s certainly true that many of these protesters are driven by the standard right-wing cultural issues which have long shaped that movement — social issues, religious fears, cultural and racial divisions, and hatred for “liberals” as Communist-Muslim-Terrorist-lovers. For many, all of that is intensified by the humiliation of being completely thrown out of power, at the hands of the first black President. But much of it is fueled by the pillaging of the corporations and Wall St. interests which own their government.”

    He goes on to quote extensively from my all-time favorite Taibbi post.

  • Ivy_B

    Some Republicans are still not satisfied,

    Why is so much nonsense being expended to try to appease those who will never be satisfied?

  • gysgt213

    This is new:
    .
    Doctors on Coverage — Physicians’ Views on a New Public Insurance Option and Medicare Expansion
    .
    In the past few months, a key point of contention in the health care reform debate has been whether a public health insurance option should be included in the final legislation. Although polls have shown that 52 to 69% of Americans support such an option,1 the views of physicians are unclear. Physicians are critical stakeholders in health care reform and have been influential in shaping health policy throughout the history of organized medicine in the United States.2
    .
    The voices of physicians in the current debate have emanated almost exclusively from national physicians’ groups and societies. Like any special-interest group, these organizations claim to represent their members (and often nonmembers as well). The result is a well-established understanding of the interests of physicians’ societies but little, if any, understanding of views among physicians in general. Faced with this absence of empirical data, we conducted a national survey of physicians to inform federal policymakers about physicians’ views of proposed expansions of health care coverage.
    .
    Overall, a majority of physicians (62.9%) supported public and private options (see Panel A of graph). Only 27.3% supported offering private options only. Respondents — across all demographic subgroups, specialties, practice locations, and practice types — showed majority support (>57.4%) for the inclusion of a public option (see Table 1). Primary care providers were the most likely to support a public option (65.2%); among the other specialty groups, the “other” physicians — those in fields that generally have less regular direct contact with patients, such as radiology, anesthesiology, and nuclear medicine — were the least likely to support a public option, though 57.4% did so. Physicians in every census region showed majority support for a public option, with percentages in favor ranging from 58.9% in the South to 69.7% in the Northeast. Practice owners were less likely than nonowners to support a public option (59.7% vs. 67.1%, P<0.001), but a majority still supported it. Finally, there was also majority support for a public option among AMA members (62.2%).
    .
    http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1790&query=home

  • stuartzechman

    …And, as Duncan Black sez:
    Other People Are Getting The Goodies
    .
    Just adding on to Glenn’s post, much opposition to the government actually doing anything decent for people comes from the idea that the government is going to take my tax money and give it to people who don’t deserve it. The problem is that for decades the Dems have tried to get around this by making sure policies and programs were relatively small and incremental, everything targeted and means tested. But doing that effectively confirmed the critics’ point. The big (giant) government programs which are most popular are the ones which are universal – Social Security and Medicare – and other less controversial government programs, like highway spending, are also perceived to benefit people across the board.
    I then tweeted:

    @atrios sez “giant programs most popular are universal-SocSec & Medicare-perceived to benefit people across the board.” //Also Defense (War)

    War and war-related spending are the ultimate, universal, popular government programs, no matter how effective or disastrous those programs are in practice.
    .
    I guess GE was pretty smart to buy NBC…

  • square1

    Here’s the irony. Immigration reform is a typically Republican issue that the majority of Americans support. However, the GOP has gone off the rails. They are way more concerned with racist craziness, like hunting immigrants along the borders, and counter-productive and spiteful measures, like predicating the purchase of health insurance on citizenship, than on practical, realistic, and fair reforms.

    This has given the Democrats a tremendous opportunity. If the Democrats treated the issue like adults (i.e. passed an immigration reform package that focused on the demand side by targeting employers who hire undocumented workers), they could steal an issue from the GOP and we would be talking about Obama Republicans for the next 20 years.

    But, no. They pander to the crazies, who will never support them, and allow their agenda to get hijacked by the interests of the minority party. The stupid. Ouch.

  • Matt

    Better to cave on small issues than allow the right to carry this innocuous thing around as a way to kill reform.

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • carotexas1

    This is a great link on why we need a strong Public Plan and how it would work.

    I have to give thanks to Mark Halprin who provided it in an announcement for a conference call for Rockefeller and Jacob S. Hacker tomorrow on the Public Option.

    This is in PDF

    http://www.ourfuture.org/files/Hacker_Public_Plan_August_2009.pdf

  • Ivy_B

    gunny, I heard a feature on All Things Considered on that survey of doctors. They, of course, took care to point out that the researchers who did it were supported by those in favor of reform, but still…

    It will be interesting to watch the coverage of it.

    Good to see after reading Greenwald’s depressing column linked by jcapan above.

  • jcapan

    I’d hardly say universally popular, but such cash cows with octopi tentacles stretching across the map… From (link) Chris Hedges excellent “The Disease of Permanent War” back in May:
    .
    “In ‘Pentagon Capitalism’ Seymour Melman described the defense industry as viral. Defense and military industries in permanent war, he wrote, trash economies. They are able to upend priorities. They redirect government expenditures toward their huge military projects and starve domestic investment in the name of national security. We produce sophisticated fighter jets, while Boeing is unable to finish its new commercial plane on schedule. Our automotive industry goes bankrupt. We sink money into research and development of weapons systems and neglect renewable energy technologies to fight global warming. Universities are flooded with defense-related cash and grants, and struggle to find money for environmental studies. This is the disease of permanent war.
    .
    Massive military spending in this country, climbing to nearly $1 trillion a year and consuming half of all discretionary spending, has a profound social cost. Bridges and levees collapse. Schools decay. Domestic manufacturing declines. Trillions in debts threaten the viability of the currency and the economy. The poor, the mentally ill, the sick and the unemployed are abandoned. Human suffering, including our own, is the price for victory.
    .
    Citizens in a state of permanent war are bombarded with the insidious militarized language of power, fear and strength that mask an increasingly brittle reality. The corporations behind the doctrine of permanent war—who have corrupted Leon Trotsky’s doctrine of permanent revolution—must keep us afraid. Fear stops us from objecting to government spending on a bloated military. Fear means we will not ask unpleasant questions of those in power. Fear means that we will be willing to give up our rights and liberties for security. Fear keeps us penned in like domesticated animals.”

  • shepherdwong

    “As for the first issue, they worry that there will not be clear enforcement mechanisms to prevent illegals from violating the law and getting away with it.”
    .
    Gosh, and here I thought they were worried they’d keep losing elections if they weren’t able to rally their brainwashed, ever-aggrieved, racist base with ridiculous, ginned-up controversy. But our steely-eyed and skeptical press corps. wouldn’t ever let them get away with a cheap, lying trick like that.

  • apollyon07

    The reason why illegal immigration had been brought into a health care debate (when, while both are very, very important, they should be looked at as separate issues) is because of the federal government’s complete failure of their responsibility on the illegal immigration issue.
    .
    What makes me so mad about this is the ludicrous amount of double-talking the federal government does on this. They declare reasonable state statutes against illegal immigration as unlawful because it’s the fed. govt’s responsibility, while at the same time leaving it up to the south-western states (like Texas) to control the borders! Which one is it?!
    .
    How to fix illegal immigration? Well, it can never completely be fixed, but the situation can be vastly improved. Here’s a good start:
    .
    1. Get AS MUCH CONTROL AS POSSIBLE over the border (building the double fence, more guards…whatever it takes, remember this is a national security issue as well)
    .
    2. Make it near-impossible for illegal immigrants to find work here, through more sophisticated ID’ing and quit preventing local law enforcement from doing their jobs
    .
    3. Crack down on dirt-bag employers who knowingly take advantage of illegal immigrants. Put an effective watch-dog system in place, find out who is doing it, and lay down MASSIVE fines, and even prison time, on them.
    .
    4. Reform the legal immigration system in order to make it easier for the honest, law-abiding ones (ie, the vast majority) to get in here illegally. It shouldn’t take upwards of 5, 10 years for someone to get in here legally when all they want to do is come in and contribute with honest, hard work. Why is there so much red tape and confusion in legal immigration? Simple- the federal government is involved. But that just takes us back to my point before my list.
    .
    Anyway, I’m sure criticism (constructive and otherwise) can be given on this. Lay it on me guys.

  • stuartzechman

    apollyon07:

    The reason why illegal immigration had been brought into a health care debate (when, while both are very, very important, they should be looked at as separate issues) is because of the federal government’s complete failure of their responsibility on the illegal immigration issue.

    I respectfully disagree.
    .
    As I remarked in a thread a few days ago:

    The authors [of HR 3200] make it eminently clear that the purpose of the legislation is to provide an exchange where private and public insurers compete for qualified applicants’ premium dollars.
    .
    The idea that an entire new Federal bureaucracy dedicated to examining and verifying proof of citizenship should be a part of health care reform is a really dishonest way to throw a wrench in that system. There is no such thing as “simple” proof of citizenship without a Department of Motor Vehicles type bureaucracy devoted to processing required documents paperwork –and slowing things down.
    .
    If such huge new state bureaucracy is needed to pass each American applicant into enrollment in a public option –like so many shoe-less air travelers in line before the TSA– then there should be calls for the private insurers and Medicare and Medicaid to have new state agencies, too.
    .
    In order not to place the public option plan at a disadvantage to the insurance industry, we should probably be talking about a new Department of Homeland Security-style agency devoted to the task of asking all American citizens applying for insurance of any kind to show the bureaucrats their papers. After all, we want a “level playing field”, don’t we?
    .
    The fact is that there’s nothing in the bill devoted to making Americans prove that they’re not criminals is proof that it’s a smarter, less needlessly bureaucratic piece of legislation –the opposite of a tax-payer money-wasting plan, which is what the “illegal aliens will be covered” issue is nominally supposed to be about.
    .
    There’s nothing in the bill that forces the public plan to ask for proof that applicants aren’t bank robbers, either, but to change the language and purpose of the reform legislation from making it easier for Americans to get insurance to stopping bank robbers from getting a piece of the tax dollars going into the pitiful, Lilliputian public option would be exactly what the sponsors of such a provision apparently intend it to be –a poison pill.

    The effect of throwing a “show me your papers” requirement at the federal exchange is to create more pointless, politically-inspired bureaucracy than is necessary to accomplish an important, unrelated policy goal. The private insurance paper-pushers will also have less of a disadvantage against a deliberately weighed-down public plan administration.
    .
    That this would happen to make that much more red-tape for rightists’ claims about government being incapable of creating programs without needless bureaucracy just so happens to fit right in with the political strategies of those making the most fuss.
    .
    Funny how that works, isn’t it?
    .
    It’s quite a striking coincidence…

  • jalztucson

    Maybe what we are learning from all this controversy is that the issue of immigration reform should have been considered by the government, comprehensive or gradual, before any issue which may be applicable, legally or not, to the whole population, such as health care.

    Just a thought.

  • gysgt213

    “2. and quit preventing local law enforcement from doing their jobs”
    .
    11.1 apollyon07:-This is not local law enforcement’s job in the first place. It ignores the fact that local enforcement has different priorities than the federal government and also ignores the fact that it cost money. Money that a lot of small cities and towns don’t have.

  • pafro

    You would think that a large majority of Doctors supporting a public option would be news.
    They should have paid Joe the Plumber to make a statement on their behalf, then just maybe some of traditional media would report this.

  • 53_3

    Nope. I won’t do it. I’ve been on the receiving end too, applolyon07
    .
    I agree that we shouldn’t be providing UHC to illegal immigrants, but preventing them from buying private insurance (without government subsidy) is another matter.
    .
    On the other hand, there is also the very sticky issue of what to do when these people get sick. I’m not in favor of the inhumane solution to let them suffer their fate, as we could be promoting a bastion for the incubation of infectious diseases within our country.
    .
    Unfortunately, the GOP (yes, Clinton helped some, too) during their heyday was promoting their immigration as a means to undercut wages, bolster industry profits, enforce ethnic cleansing in New Orleans*, and garner favor from the Latino community.
    .
    Since then, they’ve shot two of those three dogs, and left Obama to resolve the mess we have now.
    .
    *Immediately following the Katrina debacle, Bush declared an economic zone which allowed illegal immigrants to take most of the rebuilding jobs that would have otherwise gone to the Black diaspora (which still numbers some 115,000) to enable their return.
    .
    After some outcry, it was revoked in December of that year, but the damage had been done. Following that, the immigrants hung on to those jobs – albeit at pay commensurate with Federal Minimum Wage laws that were suspended within the zone. (See SourceWatch, Katrina, also google levees.org, follow wikipedia links cited for Katrina)

  • stuartzechman

    53_3:

    I’ve been on the receiving end too

    Do you mean to say that you’ve been on “the receiving end” of accusatory cries of “racism”, 53_3?

  • damudbug

    Friend, you miss the point. Yes many illegal’s do buy things while they are here. They have to. But we are saying the Majority of the mony they make goes back to their country to make them more wealthier and it hits us, the Middle Class and Poor Class as we wind up buying everything from either “Red Communist China,”
    (their own discription of themselves not mine) and Japan, Korea, Mexico, Canada etc. That’s why the U S unemployment is up to 10%. That’s pretty bad when the Worlds biggest Super Power has only 90% of its people working and the rest us are pulling down our Proud American Government to assist us in food, shelter, health care etc.
    No, we need to get out of Iraq too. But if we do can you imagine how bad the unemployment rate would be? We almost made this nation instead of the place for freedom to “World Police! We need to get our own Car Factories back up and going as well as “Made in America” again. Just try to go into Walmart and try to find anything made in America. You won’t because China is our workforce now. Red China is putting us out of work because the fat cats like Walmart Corp. is having them make their goods so they can sell them here and make more money for the Walmart Executives. And it’s not just Walmart doing this. Our so called American Owned Car companiea are gone. Chrysler Corp. is fully owned by Itilian car maker Fiat. General Motors or what’s left of it is owned by the Federal Government and still laying off people. No one is buying American cars. Look on your highways what do you see. An really true American Made care these days are antiques. Ford holding on by the skin of thier teeth because of their Truck Division. Without it there would be no Fords. Their cars are not selling at all. They are almost strictly Truck Makers. Then they have to fight Toyota, and Nissan for the trucks. Chevy and GMC are holding onto their loyal customers too but Mazda is also killing the car market here.

    Look arround and you will see the big change in this Nation since G. W. Bush and Cheney gave it away to “Red Communist China and the big Oil Companies.”

  • apollyon07

    So local governments shouldn’t be allowed to simply check citizenship status of people when they are detained or arrested?

  • rustyreturns

    Let’s see….
    .
    Option #1 for illegal’s – Let them buy insurance on the open market as they are currently doing, probably through their employer.
    .
    Option #2 for illegal’s – Enforce the immigration laws that are currently on the books and secure the borders.
    .
    Option #3 for illegal’s – Pass legislation that gives all current illegal’s “temporary” green cards or workers permits, they now are legal and can buy their insurance which will be mandated by law. If they do not have insurance, treat their acute illness and report them to the Immigration office to be picked up by ICE for deportation back to their home country.
    .
    If options 1 or 3 are choosen, pass new immigration legislation that enforces the borders, stops illegals from entering the US, put the troops on the borders after we bail out of Afghanistan. Institute a “Civillian Security Force” to take over for the Army in 5 years with young adults who wish to go to college paid for by the government. Bam! 1,000,000 new jobs are created with the stroke of a pen. The problem of illegals entering without permission is solved. Borders are now secured.
    .
    Now which one will our “Progressive” / “Communitarian” friends choose?
    .
    Which option makes the most sense?

  • jcapan

    Excerpt from an intriguing reader’s letter to the Dish:

    “A common meme on the left is that racism is driving the hatred of Obama. I think the root is deeper and scarier: it is shadow projection.

    Our ego wants to believe we are wonderful, and so cannot tolerate evidence to the contrary. Consider America. As good as we are, we have a dark side and our actions often have dark consequences. We are large and cast a large shadow. If we were a more mature people we would simply own our dark side, integrate it into part of our self knowledge, and act accordingly. However American mythology says that we are the good country, and to maintain that the pure version of that belief, we are willfully ignorant of our faults. In the minds of many “patriotic” Americans, we have no dark side. Unwilling to own our dark side, we project our shadow onto others.”

  • formerlyjames

    All of this jawing over the “illegals” is bogus crap. Nothing more, nothing less. Yeah, there are alien human beings in the country from Mexico (not Canada) and we need to fear and control this menace. How dare they pay for some kind of socialist health care.

    I have heard from reliable sources that Ossama bin lala is not in west packi mts. but entered the US and carried a sign last end of week proclaiming Obama a socialist, communist, nazi, christian, muslim murderer. He was quite a hit with the crowd there. Lets have a revolution over them meskins and whatever else our free floating mindless anger can prescribe. Again, what silly craaaaaap.

  • http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com lawyermommy

    This bill cannot be so unduly restrictive that it ends up placing the burden of supporting illegal immigrants on tax payers.

    I know the Obama Administration does not intend to cover illegal immigrants but as Joe Klein pointed out in a previous article, we pay for their coverage now anyway– so a bill crafted in a way that allows illegal immigrants BUY their own health insurance is great.

    Oh, please before people start clutching their pearls in shock and dismay– the fact is that we will always have illegal immigrants (I cannot see a time the government can ferret out all those whose documents have expired or guard the borders so fiercely that no illegal immigrant can pass through) and as it is we pay millions of dollars yearly for their care.

    At this time, including some flexibility in the proposed reform plan with respect to illegal aliens and their ability to BUY their own insurance is a good thing.

    In the frenzy of trying to distance itself from the wild remarks of a future reality show star “Rep Joe Wilson”, the administration should be careful that it does not shoot its self in the foot.

    LM

    http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I’m always amused by the circular logic that surrounds all the hype over undocumented immigrants. Everyone insists, I don’t have anything in particular against Hispanics. It’s just the ones who break the law who are a problem. They never ask the next question. Why did we pass laws making it illegal for them to immigrate in the first place?

    Having said that, I’ll also add that much of what Obama does makes lot’s more sense if we remember one point. He’s significantly more Conservative than his fans and he always was. He isn’t ‘navigating’ rightward. He’s simply reminding people that their assumptions about him are wrong. It’s happened time and again.

  • gysgt213

    There are over 1 million Irish here illegally also. Never hear a word about them.

  • gysgt213

    The Senate as voted 83 to 7 to deny funds to ACORN. Happen pretty fast, just like when they cut off the contractors in Iraq.

  • formerlyjames

    lawyermommy, here is a news flash. Illegal meskin immigrants have not, are not, and will not, be a “burden”, nor “supported” by American taxpayers. It works out to be the other way around. Think about it.

  • freeinpa

    Well heck let’s just forget all the laws, open the gates and hope for the best.

  • stuartzechman

    lawyermommy:
    .
    http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:lktJcLMBRq0J:theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/+stuartzechman+swampland&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    I indicated on an earlier post that I frequently comment on “Swampland”. It is a political blog owned and run by Time magazine. This woman, “Eve Sharon Moore” has assumed so many personalities on that site in a desperate bid to create a presence in an attempt to thwart the scrutiny of her activities–which I frequently discuss on that site. Her aliases include stuartszechman, Piratewench, 53_3, Nathan777, Rusty etc etc. It is an incredibly long list of aliases created out of sheer desperation. There is no rest for criminals.

    I can assure you that I am not the alias of your arch-enemy “Eve Sharon Moore”.

  • http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com lawyermommy

    Congratulations “Staurtzechman” :)

    http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    Lawyermommy be thinkin’ I be Eve Sharon Moore?

    WTF!?

    Th’ cap’n'll certain’ be s’rprised t’ be hearin’ THA’!
    .
    YARR!

  • stuartzechman

    PW (dw):
    .
    There is no rest for criminals.

  • formerlyjames

    As a follower and admirer of the comments of SZ, I don’t understand your post, nor what the meaning may be. I will check tomorrow to see if you explain what it (the meaning) is, more specifically.

  • http://pracphilosblog.wordpress.com Philosopher

    He says there’s no death panels, but death by bureaucrat care denial is there.

    He says there’s no additional spending, but its there according to non-partisan CBO.

    He says there’s no one will lose their current health care because of his public option but they will when it drains the private market with unfairly priced government competition.

    And he says no illegal immigrants will be covered, but there’s no verification to stop that from happening.

    Is there specific language saying any of these are allowed? No.

    But only an irrational person will say you are telling the truth when you can see the practical outcome is exactly the opposite.

    That is why Obama was called a Liar.

  • jcapan

    LM, all joking aside, the first step (link) is always the hardest.
    .
    Sincerely, I’m sure I speak for all Swampers when I say: seek help.

  • jcapan

    I don’t think “philosopher” means what you think it means…

  • apollyon07

    Why did you put illegals in quotation marks?

  • formerlyjames

    Oh, I see. Sort of. Why Obama is called a Liar. And that nonsense explains why you call yourself Philosoper? I am sorry to report that you wildly exaggerate your own status as you do that of Obama.

  • apollyon07

    53_3: I appreciate your thoughtful response, but what won’t you do? And what did you mean by receiving end? I don’t think you meant anything bad by it, I’m just curious.

  • http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com lawyermommy

    The criminality I discuss on my blog being committed against my family and I is vicious, on-going and incredibly malevolent.

    I am certain about what I have written about these numerous aliases being ONE person. It will not change regardless of frontal, aggressive or thinly veiled attempts to deflect from fact.

    It is the unimpeachable truth.

    LM

    http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/

  • apollyon07

    ” the fact is that we will always have illegal immigrants”
    .
    See, I don’t know if you intended it or not, but I hear people say this and it seems like that’s just an excuse for us to do nothing about this problem that gets worse and worse everyday. So if we can’t fix the problem 100%, then we shouldn’t try to fix it at all?

  • apollyon07

    That makes sense what you said, where I disagree though is that it seems like this notion would encourage us to do things in a quick rather than in a correct manner. Ideally this would be enforced in a quick AND correct way, but the second one is more important.
    .
    Bottom line is, we gotta enforce current laws. Nothing creates more disrespect for the rule of law than passing additional laws that cannot or are not enforced.

  • stuartzechman

    That is why Obama was called a Liar.
    .
    That is also why I was called a restless felon by the name of “Eve Sharon Moore”.

  • stuartzechman

    apollyon07:
    .
    Thanks so much for taking the time to read through this rationale.

  • gysgt213

    “The criminality I discuss on my blog being committed against my family and I is vicious, on-going and incredibly malevolent.”
    .
    Let me be the first to ask. Are you insane or just crazy?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I told Junior to be careful with that psychic-control ray, Your liable to poke someone’s mind out with that thing!

  • gysgt213

    I went to you website and apparently you have pictures of both Rusty and Stuart exposing them as the black women they are. Good job!

  • rustyreturns

    Sorry to disappoint you lawyermommy, but I am and always will be the one and only rustyreturns. :D
    .

  • stuartzechman

    lawyermommy:

    Congratulations “Staurtzechman”

    …Do I get a cut of any GoogleAds revenue from all of the comedy-seeking traffic I’ve driven to your site in the past hour?

  • jcapan

    LOL: “I went to you website and apparently you have pictures of both Rusty and Stuart exposing them as the black women they are. Good job!”
    .
    Seriously, it’d be un-human to not laugh. The irony being that we spend much of our time herel thinking our political enemies are mentally unbalanced, but in this case we’re seeing the genuine article. This person, perhaps this woman, is disturbed–feeding her psychosis can’t be healthy. Ignore her or advise her to seek medical treatment, please.
    .
    Let’s imagine if she were a family member. On a blog perhaps we’re too detached to see it, but if a sick person walked into our local coffeehouse, we’d probably be more sympathetic and less willing to toy with her like children circling a wounded animal.

  • rustyreturns

    Thank God, finally a rational voice on this site!!!

  • stuartzechman

    Thank you.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    Aye – le’s no’ be feedin’ ‘er sickness.
    .
    Get help, lass!
    .
    arrgh.

  • stuartzechman

    Oregon JC:
    .
    You’re completely right, of course.
    .
    It was just too much to read about the Rusty-Zech detente in such terms.
    .
    What came to mind wasn’t so much “wounded animal”, but “Chief Inspector Dreyfus”:
    .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TdvIFuGgew

  • vwcat

    What the cold hearted conservatives want is for dr.’s to not treat illegals in the emergency rooms even. For them to get zero care, regardless of whether they are dying or in severe pain, adult or child.
    How ugly is that?
    Heartless, selfish and cruel.
    But, that is what being a conservative is about.
    The worship of the cult of ‘me’ What’s in it for me, what about me, it’s all about me.
    Disgusting.

  • http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com lawyermommy

    “The purpose of the exchange, and health care reform as a whole, is to decrease the number of people who avoid insurance and choose instead to get health care in hospital emergency rooms, a cost that is eventually picked up by the local, state and federal government. By frustrating the opportunities for illegal immigrants to purchase insurance with their own money, the White House position suggests that those here illegally could continue to cost public money by using emergency rooms.”

    The quote above (from the article) captures the issue at its core.
    If the proposed bill becomes too restrictive, the status quo will not change in terms of the millions of dollars being spent by the government on Health care for illegal immigrants.

    It is a great and very proactive idea to include an
    option for illegal aliens to buy their own insurance.
    We have millions of illegal aliens who currently reside in the US and as such any plan that does not take them into account will continue creating expenses which could have been contained or avoided all together.

    LM

    PS: The facts I state on my blog remain unchanged. The blitz of denials and invective from a myriad of “commenters” was expected and changes nothing.

    http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/

  • ricardod

    This is a sad but true reality Ivy. It has always happened that in an economical crisis and under high unemployment the far right always blames a minority unable to defend themselves, we have seen this since the roman empire.

    For me its difficult to understand why do americans don´t ask for more and better services from their government with the taxes they pay and that includes healthcare, the american system is one of the worse in the first world and coincidently is one of the more privatized ones, that doesn’t mean privatization is wrong just that it needs a balance and proper checking specially in such a complex issue.

    But hey a great way to divert the attention of the monstrous amount of money people pay for basic care and medication is by blaming a really small minority of the population, instead of the corporate sponsors of a group of politicians and some yelling moral crusaders that want to pass for professional journalists.

    Do you know who is to blame? then go for the simple question. Who is making the money? Who is reporting record profits? and above all Who has being punished over and over again for the lack of basic business ethics?

    I am a mexican with a lot of good american friends and I’ve had the luck of studying in the U.S. so I know that americans are a very open minded and generous people, not only that but you have somehow a sense of fairness and a respect for freedom that has propelled you to struggle to make a better society and a better world. And I also know that there’s not a more suited country to understand the plight of a poor father or a son trying desperately to feed a family by any means necessary.

    From over here I can tell you this: there’s a profound sense of shame in Mexico about our country not being able to present equal opportunities to all of our citizens and, I can tell you also, the pain that the families feel about being separated is really big, it tears apart whole communities.

    I also know that there cannot be a perfect immigration reform but one is urgent and this debate on health care is a perfect example, let us create a status for them to be there legally, that can let them pay taxes and that certifies they won’t stay permanently in the U.S. I know a lot of people will jump at this, but let’s talk without the zealots, without the fear and anger.

    What or whom decided someone will be born in the richest country on earth and what or whom decided another person will be born a few miles south? That is something I really don’t know. All I know is that those two people are brothers and sisters and if they knew each other they would never deny the other some basic human dignity, like care for a sick child.

  • vwcat

    Reading the posts on illegals reminds me of reading about the reaction of the rightwing with immigrants in the teens and early twenties and their paranoia with ‘anarchy’.
    They saw radical anarchists under every bed and around every corner much like they do with ‘socialists’ and muslims and Mexicans today.
    Sadly, their fever reached a pitch when two men, most likely innocent, were condemned for death and executed for a crime they most likely did not commit.
    This came after the great ‘anarchist’ roundups and forced deportations of ‘suspected’ anarchists.
    A prelude to the red witch hunts by McCarthy in the 50s where thousands of innocent people were destroyed by false accusations of being ‘red’ and now today.

  • freeinpa

    “A prelude to the red witch hunts by McCarthy in the 50s where thousands of innocent people were destroyed by false accusations of being ‘red’ and now today.”

    Not unlike the liberals movement to paint all conservatives or those who disagree with their opinions as racist.

  • gysgt213

    Patrick Swayze is a real loss.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    You’re right of course. Most Conservatives are not necessarily racists. Most racists on the other hand…..

  • shepherdwong

    “Not unlike the liberals movement to paint all conservatives or those who disagree with their opinions as racist.”
    .
    If you can’t name and quote a liberal who has ever said that “all conservatives or those who disagree with their opinions are racists”, you’re a liar. Of course, all “conservatives” are liars.

  • stuartzechman

    Dirks:
    .
    I thought you weren’t going to give this liar the time of day.
    .
    Wasn’t your minimum threshold for good faith communications unmet for the last time the other day?

  • kbanginmotown

    Jeebus H. Christ in a chicken basket, Stuart, I’m going to have to soak my contacts in Clorox tonight! Is “The Bald Pots of Dog” for real? .
    .
    Out with the bad air, in with the good…

  • apollyon07

    Anytime, SZ.

  • apollyon07

    Anytime, SZ!

  • stuartzechman

    There is no rest for criminals.

  • ilvoternew

    Tomorrow LM is going to tell us that KT and Joe Klein are one and the same :-)

  • jcapan

    SZ, that’s a pretty good tagline for your brand

  • gmalcolms

    Aha, Stuart, or should I say, Eve Sharon Moore or Halima Sal Andersen, you’ve finally been exposed! I guess you eliminated the real Stuart Zechman, who posted with a double underscore, and then assumed his identity. You gave yourself away when you described your supposed brush with racism while apartment hunting in New Orleans – only a black woman could’ve written that.
    .
    QH was another one of your aliases, wasn’t it? Apparently we’re not the only ones you’ve been criminalizing all these years, listening in on our cell phones.

  • redraven937

    Considering “opening the gates” involves letting illegal immigrants pay for insurance with their own money, yeah, let’s do that. Or we can continue subsidizing them in emergency rooms just to “prove a point.”

    Stuff like this and how 60% of all bankruptcies are medical bill-related really make all the pushback on public options and the like so asinine. We already have a “public option” and everyone is already paying for it, even though it’s the most expensive and least effective way of doing it. What happened to pragmatism?

  • jcapan

    OK, this place is getting spooky

  • oldhippiesnevergiveup

    You are exactly right! You have inspired me to write to my representatives again. Have a great morning. Jane

  • freeinpa

    Paul & Stuart

    I love being called names and a liar by folks who spend their lives lying to thenselves. Your arrogant dimissive attitutde is what has liberals always lying about their intentions and always having to defend a losing position.

    When the truth comes to light, you lose plain and simple. (See HC reform & Tax and trade). Consequently, with your presumed superior intelligence you conclude everyone else is evil,stupid or a racist.

    Sad to be delusional and see the world as you see it go down in flames. No wonder the suicide rate is so high among liberals

  • stuartzechman

    Wow, great memory, gmalcolms.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    There is no rest for criminals.

  • rustyreturns

    “Dirks:
    .
    I thought you weren’t going to give this liar the time of day.
    .
    Wasn’t your minimum threshold for good faith communications unmet for the last time the other day?”

    .
    Wow Dirks, are you bowing down to stuart? Are you going to follow in line with his faithful band of sheep, and heed his advice?
    .
    You keep questioning freeinpa. Keep posting your counter arguments to these self-proclaimed intellectual wackjobs from the far reaches of the leftist extreme. Stand-up and be known for your ideals, your morals and your conservative values.
    .
    I love it when one of their own finally comes out to show their real colors on this site. They made fun of Hula, Question Hillary and other various names and one day “lawyer mommy” appears, demonstrating exactly what they accused Hula/QH for. But, is she a conservative? Nope, she is one of their own.
    .
    Life is indeed wonderful!! Now we wait for Obama to show his true colors as well. The Son of Jeremiah Wright cannot be kept under control for much longer.

  • stuartzechman

    Oregon JC:

    SZ, that’s a pretty good tagline for your brand

    I agree.
    .
    Up until today the top contender was:
    .
    “It ain’t Coca Cola, it’s rice.”
    .
    But this is perhaps even better.
    .
    .
    “There is no rest for criminals.”

  • mattyj273

    damudbug is just plain wrong. A recent study just concluded that for every immigrant in the U.S, four jobs are created. Not only that, the material goods they buy within the U.S goes straight back into our economy. Granted some illegals send payments to families outside the U.S, but this is nothing new in our long history of immigration. To say that the family payments brings down the economy would contradict the fact that the U.S grew over the 1990s while so too did immigration. The reason why we import so many Chinese goods is because they are cheap (we love cheap) and we are a consumer driven economy. Immigrants probably purchase more foreign goods than anyone else in this country due to poor wages. Granted illegal immigration is a problem when you consider lost taxes and free health care, but to consider them a parasite to the U.S, would be an overstatement.

  • sacredh

    Thanks for mentioning spooky. I haven’t pulled any haunted house pranks on the MIL for weeks. It’s time to get busy again. It ain’t over till the fat lady screams.

  • formerlyjames

    apolly, I used quotation marks to imply, perhaps not effectively, that the word and the issue have been hijacked, like so many other issues, by the right wing, and magnafied and blown completely out of proportion to what it is.

  • Ivy_B

    Thank you, sacredh! A perfect end to this bizarre thread.

  • square1

    Not unlike the liberals movement to paint all conservatives or those who disagree with their opinions as racist.

    In general, I avoid using the term “racist”. We all have our racial biases and prejudices. The word “racist” can be toxic and prevent people from discussing important issues in a positive manner.

    I would add that liberals tend to accept that we all carry prejudices to some extent and that it remains a constant duty for everyone to strive to overcome prejudices and treat others fairly. A liberal response to receiving legitimate racial complaints is to say “I recognize your concerns, let me address that.”

    “Conservatives,” otoh, tend to pretend that we live in a color-blind society. They are like toddlers who refuse to admit that the crumbs on their shirt came from the cookie jar.

    For me, an exception to avoiding the term “racism” or “racist” is when racial prejudices are deliberately appealed to in political operations. For instance, when GOP Congresspersons deliberately tap into the “fear of the other” of their constituents by questioning Obama’s birthplace and citizenship. Sorry, but there is only one word for it.

    The Republican Party is at a crossroads. It can continue down a path of only appealing to angry Whites. In which case, the GOP will go the way of the dodo and the Democrats will likely fracture into a liberal party and a Blue Dog party.

    Or the GOP can abandon the politics of victimhood, start marketing truly conservative principles to non-Whites, and provide useful competition to a Democratic Party that will inevitably become more corrupt as it continues in power. Obviously I would prefer that course, but the choice is up to them.

  • 53_3

    Yes, specifically on the receiving end of accusations of racism. A few other scattered insults too.

  • 53_3

    Apollyon07:
    .
    The horse is out of the barn and I’m not of a mind to do much without considering the humanitarian results of any action.
    .
    However, I agree with the pre-entry enforcement, the control of the borders, and the fines for employers who hire them.
    .
    I’ve made the observations before about the fact that our youth here have to compete with these individuals for traditional “first” jobs, and as a consequence, we have our own hanging around on the streets with nothing to do.
    .
    One of my more interesting takes on the myth of “the jobs Amerocans won’t do” reprise is that if we had UHC, then many of those who wouldn’t take these jobs would be more open to them as many of those (not our youth) are shopping benefits as well.

  • 53_3

    Wow. I’m 55, sot of ugly, a little fat, white and bald.
    .
    Also, I’m a GIS analyst, and I couldn’t lawyer my way out of an open paper bag!

  • 53_3

    But then again philospher, there obviously are “death panels” that are administered by the CEOs and bean counters of insurance companies, whose directives are to maximize profits.
    .
    Is this somehow better than government administration?
    .
    I fail to see how. At least, philospher, we can vote them out of offce! BTW, I’m not in the least worried about Obama’s intentions.
    .
    On the other hand, I have several stories that are pertinent to the issue profit driven care-rationing and ruin that are current events.
    .
    And to hell the “socialism” argument. I say go with what works!

  • freeinpa

    “Conservatives,” otoh, tend to pretend that we live in a color-blind society. They are like toddlers who refuse to admit that the crumbs on their shirt came from the cookie jar.

    And liberals pretend that the only racists are whites and cry racism everytime they are caught with thier hand IN the cookie jar.

    ACORN is a corrupt organization and has been exposed as such; not by the MSM who remains complicit in the race-baiting. Charlie Rangel underestimates his net worth by over half a million in cash and he claims racism.

    Now we have liberal clowns here and the MSM making excuses and going to contortions to justify criminal behavior.

    I guess it can be reasonably expected that the GOP will abandon its politics of victim hood, they you believe they have about the same time the radical left drops its scare tactics of racism.

    The left is now the little boy who cried wolf too often when he finally came nobody listened.

  • 53_3

    Is this why Rush Limbaugh stated clearly that you (the GOP as it is now) doesn’t need diversity, freepeethreeoh?
    .
    Also, have you ever talked to people in the Black community? Do you know their makup? Do you know what percentage of them are conservative and why they wouldn’t touch the likes of you with a 10 foot pole despite their policial leanings?”
    .
    Have you ever bothered to ask someone besides Bill O’Reilly what the reason is behind the 3% of the Black vote you Froot Loops garnered on 11/4?
    .
    And for that matter, do you honestly think your “honed for disaffected whites” dogwhistling is being accepted in any form as “honesty”*?
    .
    And just what is your opinion of the 97 percent of Black Americans who have rejected your message out of hand?
    .
    *No, I mean real honesty. Not the Southern Strategy codeword!

  • 53_3

    It is getting a wee bit tweaky, isn’t it?

  • http://mauralee.tumblr.com MauraLee

    This is an emotional issue for many Americans. To conquer these serious changes, doesn’t it seem right to advocate for greater transparency in both quality and price information, for it overlaps with many other issues? http://www.friendsoftheuschamber.com/issues/index.cfm?ID=300

  • http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com lawyermommy

    Again, it bears repeating– On my blog, I have described vicious and on-going brutal and heinous Criminal acts being committed against my family and I.

    On the same blog, I have identified the ONE commenter here on Swampland and also clearly identified a few of his numerous aliases.

    This commenter using numerous aliases is engaged in process of cyber leeching which is the process of creating many aliases in a bid to attempt to defect from the facts and try (unsuccessfully) to make the issue seem banal.
    Crime has not, and never will be banal.

    The issue I address are CRIMES, the perpetrators are criminals: “Akbar Shabazz” and his wife “Eve Sharon Moore” aka “Shay Riley” of the websites “Black Female Interracial Marriage “blog.

    They also own hundreds of other sites and blogs and can alter, access and alter these with criminal adroitness because they are cyber bots who have engaged in this criminal conduct for at least Nine years.

    Other sites they own are “Field Negro”, “Brother Peacemaker”, Black Womens Interracial Relationship Circle”, BlackWomenblowtheTrumpet”, “The Black Sentinel”, Project 21”, Whitemenwhoprefer Black women” etc. ETC.

    The number of organizations and aliases assumed by these felons and the scams they perpetuate under the cover of the Internet—also using phone tapping, computer tapping and other technology is unprecedented.

    I am an Attorney and I am pursuing redress for these horrible crimes. Further, as I indicated in an earlier comment, the blitz and profuse abrasive outpouring of remark which followed the remark from one of his aliases above were expected, have changed nothing and do not alter the facts.

    Contributing to the Associated Press as reporters and adroitness in using “Blackness” and “Black empowerment” as cover should not prevent a vigorous investigation of these felons.

    As I have indicated here and elsewhere, the reason I post here is because this is a blog run by the elite media– Seasoned reporters whom I hope will break open this case and expose the under belly of technology based crimes, crimes which have real and measurable consequences against people like me.

    Online originating crimes such as illegal phone taps and computer taps, criminal stalking and vicious online violence do not lend themselves to short term investigation and require sustained and vigorous investigation conducted by experienced personnel. This is one of the reasons I post here.

    Many times the discourse
    of online criminals focuses on companies and pecuniary losses— but in reality Predators and Pedophiles like this woman “Eve Sharon Moore” and her husband “AkbarShabazz” continue to violently and brutally commit crime against unwitting law abiding individuals like me.

    These Criminals and vile Thugs (Riley and Shabazz) continue evading capture and apprehension through online subterfuge, pretense, assuming alias after alias and blitzing sites like this one etc etc.–

    Other acts they commit to avoid detection, prosecution and apprehension include reading emails of investigators and reporters who try and investigate them, fabricating lengthy digital histories, sending Trojans and other Malware to access computers of investigators, using remotely activated illegal phone taps and other criminal means to misdirect and confuse those who seek to route, expose, prosecute and jail them.

    I will NOT stop or be deterred by anything in my quest to route these felons.
    The acts being committed against me are vicious and should be prosecuted.

    Justice can be delayed but I believe that with commitment, faith and tenacity, it is always obtained at the end.

    LM

    http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/

  • http://trueslant.com/marceloballve/2009/09/15/illegal-immigrants-barred-from-insurance-exchanges-their-cash-not-welcome/ Marcelo Ballve – South Meridian – Illegal immigrants barred from insurance exchanges– their cash not welcome – True/Slant

    [...] to the White House (via Swampland): Undocumented immigrants would not be able to buy private insurance on the exchange. Those who are [...]

  • piper1

    If you really think shrill arch-conservative “rustyreturns” is the same person as loquacious leftist “stuartzechman” (both LONG-TIME commenters here) you are really boxing shadows. They both pre-date your appearance here by literally years (as do I, for the record). I don’t know what the deal with this woman “Eve Sharon Moore” and her husband “AkbarShabazz” is, but your overt paranoia at the general blogosphere is seriously unreasonable.
    .
    This forum has been around for a long time, and there is absolutely no reason to believe that rustyreturns and stuartzechman have been having a fake political disagreement for literally years in your absence for the sole purpose of perpetuating an elaborate ruse against YOU for some nefarious purpose. It is seriously insane.
    .
    And for whomever highlighted lawyermommy’s obvious paranoid delusions and attempted to equate that with the crazies in the GOP, let’s just note here that lawyermommy has been consistently called out on this paranoid nonsense by the liberals here, whereas paranoid conspiracy theorists Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh are the intellectual leaders of the Republican Party against whom no conservative can transgress.

  • square1

    I literally just typed this: “I would add that liberals tend to accept that we all carry prejudices to some extent and that it remains a constant duty for everyone to strive to overcome prejudices and treat others fairly.”
    .
    You respond with this: “And liberals pretend that the only racists are whites”
    .
    Can there be greater evidence of someone insisting on a preconception in the face of totally contradictory evidence?
    .
    ACORN is a corrupt organization and has been exposed as such; not by the MSM who remains complicit in the race-baiting.
    .
    A. What ACORN is supposed to be doing: Legal community organizing.
    .
    B. What ACORN is accused of doing: Election fraud.
    .
    Freep, I have NO problem with someone who wants to root out criminal behavior, including election fraud. None. I expect facts and evidence, but if you provide them, I am 100% in favor of prosecuting criminal behavior.
    .
    Otoh, I have little use for those who are themselves trying to attack lawful civic participation, primarily because they do not like the racial and/or social makeup of a group of people.
    .
    So, here is the question we are presented with. Are Republican attacks on ACORN primarily motivated by “B,” a Good desire to root out criminality, or “A,” a Bad desire to engage in intimidation, voter suppression, and racist demogoguery?
    .
    I think we can agree that in order to answer that question, you would ask a few additional questions. To wit:
    .
    1. Do ACORN opponents limit their attacks to allegations of criminality or do they attack ACORN for doing what it is supposed to do (i.e. community organizing)?
    .
    2. Do ACORN opponents support their claims with evidence?
    .
    3. Do ACORN opponents investigate claims thoroughly before making accusations or do they launch attacks willy-nilly and shoot from the hip?
    .
    4. Do ACORN opponents ever entertain the possibility that wrongdoing by individual agents may not be known or condoned by the entity as a whole? Or do they assume that any individual’s bad acts were directed by senior leaders in ACORN?
    .
    5. Do ACORN opponents give credit where credit is due if ACORN reports wrongdoing to the authorities?
    .
    6. Do the accusations of ACORN opponents make logical sense? E.g. If ACORN agents registered phantom voters under the name “Mickey Mouse” would that theoretically lead to increased votes for ACORN-supported candidates?
    .
    Charlie Rangel underestimates his net worth by over half a million in cash and he claims racism.
    .
    Please. Who is defending Rangel? Nobody.

  • wykked

    All the back and forth arguing over whether or not to include illegal immigrants or not is pointless. In anything our government has provided for us..social security, unemployment benefits etc….have they honestly did the best they could for the people??…or have they squandered the money away in purchasing 500K of china for the white house….?

    Nothing this country offers has ever been free. TAXATION…once its imposed NEVER goes away…they just re-allocate the money to something else. The Cigarrette and Gas tax imposed on us, when the Clinton’s were in office, for Hillary’s Healthcare Bill passed….but where did the money go??? Everyone just thinks they will be getting something to make things better …but in the end care will fall by the way side just like Medicaid, Medicare, and VA Hospital Care….They want to pay pennies on the dollar for care for people whether or not they are illegal or legal, is irrelevant…They want to socialize medicine and make us all (except for them) recieve the same substandard care and TAKE our money in the form of TAX dollars to do it.

  • http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com lawyermommy

    ” piper1 said 6 hours ago:

    If you really think shrill arch-conservative “rustyreturns” is the same person as loquacious leftist “stuartzechman” (both LONG-TIME commenters here) you are really boxing shadows. They both pre-date your appearance here by literally years (as do I, for the record). I don’t know what the deal with this woman “Eve Sharon Moore” and her husband “AkbarShabazz” is, but your overt paranoia at the general blogosphere is seriously unreasonable.
    .
    This forum has been around for a long time, and there is absolutely no reason to believe that rustyreturns and stuartzechman have been having a fake political disagreement for literally years in your absence for the sole purpose of perpetuating an elaborate ruse against YOU for some nefarious purpose. It is seriously insane.
    .
    And for whomever highlighted lawyermommy’s obvious paranoid delusions and attempted to equate that with the crazies in the GOP, let’s just note here that lawyermommy has been consistently called out on this paranoid nonsense by the liberals here, whereas paranoid conspiracy theorists Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh are the intellectual leaders of the Republican Party against whom no conservative can transgress.”
    ______________
    “Piper 1”

    This will be a short response to your asinine remark above:

    The issues which I have explained in detail here are crimes. The lack of knowledge of the general public regarding the explosion of online felons—who commit these types of horrific crimes– is not a deterrent to my stating the facts regarding the crimes being committed against me.

    Even more atrocious is so called “longevity” of commenters which you reference. So what… that does not change the veracity of the facts I stated.

    It is worth noting that even before I identified these “commenters” as the ONE person with numerous aliases, I was getting a barrage of asinine , acerbic and pathetic blitz of weak attempts to minimize my comments about the felons I want investigated.
    ————————————-
    For the information of anyone else reading this; the name- face-age connection is frequently used by Pedophiles to lure children into thinking they are children.
    The difference in “personality” or “similarity”—is a key weapon used by online Predators and Pedophiles to mislead and confuse.

    Saying there are differences in “personalities” as “Piper1” avers is bogus. It is a requirement for online crime and robbery– as an example- Akbar Shabazz runs “Project 21” a so called Black conservative think tank, he also runs “Field Negro”, “The Black Sentinel” and “Brother Peacemaker” which were raging Liberal blogs. Deceit and misrepresentation is common and frequent for online Felons.

    My description of real and continuing criminality against me and this attempt by “Piper1″” to describe these as “paranoid delusions” would have laughable if the facts in issue were not egregious acts of the most pernicious wicked forms of criminality.
    Absurd categorizations which seek to reduce the seriousness of the issues I discuss here and elsewhere will do nothing to reduce my pursuit of this felon and her husband.

    “Called out on it” blah blah<< this ridiculous remark is asinine and bogus—and would have been down right hilarious if it was not an attempt to reduce the enormity of the brutality I have endured for years.

    Brutal felonies being committed against my family and I by this vile Reprobate Shay Riley aka Eve Sharon Moore” of the website “Blackfemaleinterracialmarriage” and her husband Akbar Shabazz of the “Project 21" organization and “Field Negro” blog (and so many many others).
    I will pursue this matter till these felons are jailed.

    I do this not just for me but for others who endure the same brutality, violation, assaults and and losses but are unable to do anything about it because they do not know how to proceed, have no voice and are confused by the violent, malevolent threatening tactics and false criminal bravado of these brazen online Reprobates.

    http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/

  • hamm928

    I haven’t heard yet that the reform bill removes the Anchor Baby program. That’s an expensive program a invites illegal entry.

    Also the USDA WIC program. I verified that they don’t ask for legal status before giving WIC benifits. The list goes on and on!

  • http://www.news-medical.net/news/20090916/Activists-organize-around-the-overlap-between-health-reform-and-illegal-immigration-issues.aspx Activists organize around the overlap between health reform and illegal immigration issues

    [...] that the fates of the two issues have become politically linked" (Hsu, 9/15). Meanwhile, TIME reports on Rep. Joe Wilson's, R-S.C., outburst regarding illegal immigrants and notes that [...]

  • http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/09/16/baucus-health-plan-takes-harder-line-on-illegal-immigration/ Baucus Health Plan Takes Harder Line On Illegal Immigration – Swampland – TIME.com

    [...] House, in the wake of Obama being accused of lying in a speech to a joint session of Congress. As I pointed out before, it is unlikely that large numbers of illegal immigrants would seek out this option. In the [...]

  • brittanicus

    As usual the opponents of any kind of restriction on the illegal immigration, is playing the race card? It’s a forgone conclusion that the benefactors of promoting a mass invasion of our shores, such as religious groups, unions, ACLU, radical ethnic caucuses and even our own US Chamber of Commerce, will mouth epithets that doesn’t benefit big business that doesn’t advocate a continuous force of illegal cheap labor. Now they are really livid because their objection to E-Verify was thrown out of court. Now all federal contractors and subcontractors must adhere to the law. They have conspired against the American worker and people for too long, and now we are fighting back ourselves against corrupt politicians and other elected officials nationwide,

    Rep.Joe Wilson was actually telling the truth at the time, and now Democrats have placed restrictive language in the Health care reform package as a reluctant afterthought by public demand. This was nothing to do about bigotry or racism, but the American workers and family survival. None of the business community who hire them wants their labor, but forces the taxpayer to carry the financial load. The US labor force should not have to be in competition, with people from other countries. Businesses have already offshore American jobs, because it’s cheaper? So every illegal foreign national and family member should be exempt from government run health care, jobs and all the billions of taxpayer dollars secretly allocated to pay for their support. Twenty million plus illegal people compromised themselves, when they entered a sovereign nation without permission. Find out the truth at NUMBERSUSA, JUDICIAL WATCH and contact your politician at 202-224-3121 demanding no weakening conditions to E-Verify or any other law authored by Congress.

  • http://eatitorwearit.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/who-owes-who-an-apology/ Who Owes Who An Apology? « Eat It Or Wear It

    [...] See also: “You lie!”: 100% correct statement, 100% wrong time. Senate Revisits Illegal Immigrant Health Care Question Sorting out the health care issue of immigrants Health care reform and Senator Joe Wilson’s contribution The White House Tacks Right On Illegal Immigrants In Health Care Reform [...]

  • http://health-care.name/?p=9223 Health Care. (united health care, universal health care) » Blog Archive » Health Reform At The Expense of Immigrants

    [...] Scherer, writing on the Time blog Swampland puts it this [...]

  • http://www.ylse.net/ylse/2009/09/one-republican-is-enough-for-bipartisanship-on-healthcare-bill/ Ylse » Blog Archive » One Republican is enough for bipartisanship on healthcare bill

    [...] it doesn’t have to be this way. According to a passage on the Time magazine politics blog site: The purpose of the exchange, and health care reform as a whole, is to decrease the [...]

  • http://healthcare.zdnet.com/?p=2769 ZDNet Healthcare mobile edition

    [...] that might kill reform, specifically immigration and abortion. The President has indicated he might firm up language on the former, despite deep liberal misgivings, but Republicans lost a test vote on abortion. Four [...]

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