In the Arena

We’re Talking

…everywhere, to everyone, it seems–to Iran, in the context of the P5+1 talks, and to North Korea, outside the context of the six party talks.Let’s take North Korea first. I suspect this  is the tip of an iceberg that–to torture a metaphor–began to melt with Bill Clinton’s visit to Pyongyang over the summer. Actually, it may have started melting earlier, when the Russians and Chinese supported a stronger sanctions regimen after the Nokos started testing missiles last Spring. That unity, plus the improved health of Kim Jong Il, made it both possible and necessary for the North Koreans to climb down from their craziness. The fact that we have agreed to bilateral talks, after receiving the approval of the other 6-party members (China, Russia, South Korea and Japan), would indicate that a breakthrough may not be too far away. This is excellent news.

The Iran news is more guarded and tactical. As regular readers may know, I supported such talks until the June 12 election debacle, which should have raised the stakes for the Iranians–they needed to show some sign that they were serious and not just farsing around. There is no indication that Iranians have, but the Administration has gone ahead anyway. There are two possible upsides to this strategy: we might actually make some progress–and we might not, thereby demonstrating to the other P5+1 members (Russia, China, Britain, France and Germany) that the Iranians are intransigent and deserving of the same united front on sanctions that seems to have worked with the North Koreans. There are two downsides as well–that these talks will be cause for the Iranians to dither on the nuclear front and that they will confer international legitimacy on a brutal regime that seems to be further tightening the screws on the opposition.

I still have my doubts about the path the Administration is taking, but–as a general rule–talking is far better than not talking. Let’s hope it works.

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  • dollared

    Joe, there is a war on, but it’s between the Evil People who misappropriated American patriotism on 9/12 and used it to subvert our Constitution, steal $3T from our treasury and needlessly make war in Iraq, and the true American patriots who want to fix our country and use the beneficial power of Americans working together through our democratically elected government to fix what’s wrong.

    Right now it’s a proxy war, with the principal combatants for the Evil People being Liz Cheney, and the Angry Right, and the new front is health care.

    Twaddling on about North Korea and Iran makes you irrelevant to the real battle.

    But I’m sure the folks at AIPAC and the Project for a New American Century will warmly greet you at their next event. And that’s what appears to matter to you.

  • rustyreturns

    I still have my doubts about the path the Administration is taking, but–as a general rule–talking is far better than not talking. Let’s hope it works.

    .
    Well we certainly have an Administration that is “talking” more. However the concern seems to be on passing a healthcare bill that the vast majority of Americans are against.
    .
    One would think that if your domestic agenda is mired in political mud, that you would re-focus, and begin to ease the threat of a nuclear Iran.
    .
    How soon before Israel attacks Iran, Joe?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    as a general rule–talking is far better than not
    .
    Because after all, even the message ‘do this or we’ll bomb you into the stone age’ requires a conduit for delivery or else it remains useless.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Unity comes from having a common purpose and working towards it together. Unity that’s based on the notion of hating all the right people is not unity at all. It’s just hatred.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Sorry, wrong thread……

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Talking is better than not talking, as you point out, because that allows for international cooperation– as in sanctions– if the bad actor countries continue to do bad things. Upholding the NPT is in everyone’s vital interest. And sanctions work, if they’re multilateral– Iraq in 1991 and post-Gulf War, Libya, South Africa.
    -
    Joe wrote, “There are two downsides as well–that these talks will be cause for the Iranians to dither on the nuclear front and that they will confer international legitimacy on a brutal regime…”
    -
    I disagree with both. Not-talking isn’t helping timewise on the nuclear front. And “conferring legitimacy” seems to me a non-issue. No one disputes that these guys are running that country. It is pure churlishness, and overestimation of our importance and the importance of talking to us, to think that our talking to Iranian diplomats grants the regime any extra bonus magic powers.

  • destor23

    Farsing?

    Joe made up a word!

    I like it.

  • Cliff

    I still have my doubts about the path the Administration is taking, but–as a general rule–talking is far better than not talking. Let’s hope it works.
    .
    So you just cranked out two large paragraphs to come to a dithering conclusion like that? Why?

  • trifecta55

    Yes, the vast majority wants a robust public option, yet Obama is to their right on this one. You are correct accidentally Rusty.

  • rustyreturns

    Joe, Your favorite commentator and newspaper columnist said this:
    .

    Charles Krauthammer: “ACORN has all of the appearance of a criminal racket. This is graphic appearance, incredibly strong evidence, but it’s at the end of a long list of evidence going back years and years. I’m glad that the Census is cutting its ties. What I’m worried about is that the Stimulus package had millions of dollars, and there are loopholes in there which would allow it to end up in the hands of ACORN, and that’s what people ought to be looking at right now”.

    .
    Joe, do you think You or TIME will have someone investigate the claims that ACORN was recently found to be promoting Prostitution and the abuse of under-aged girls for a sex ring in Washington DC and Baltimore Maryland?
    .
    http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/09/census-severs-relationship-with-acorn.html
    .
    Also this letter from the Director of the Census Bureau, Office of Economics and Statistical Administration which on September 11th, 2009 terminated it ties to ACORN to assist the bureau with the up-coming Census in 2010?
    .
    http://www.the912project.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/CensusACORN-1.pdf
    .
    Joe Klein, and the rest of the MSM, represented on this site by TIME, are standing as a wall to protect Obama and his Administration along with Obama’s associations like ACORN.
    .
    When will you, Joe Klein and TIME separate yourselves from your active and obvious campaign to hide the truth about Obama and his legion of far left extremists and begin to report on the truth?

  • ilvoternew

    Is this the same prostitution ring that David Vitter (R-LA) used to frequent ? Didnt know that Acorn and Vitter were this tight :-)

  • stuartzechman

    It’s just not that important, Rustydog. We’re getting looted right out in the open, not from poor, stupid old ACORN.
    .
    You’re choking on a symbol, you’re getting predictably riled up about something that doesn’t mean what you think it means –however bad or stupid it is.
    .
    It’s just not anything to make a mountain out of –at least no more than a mountain than shipping those shrink-wrapped pallets of thousand-dollar bills over to Iraq, so that those pallets can be handed over to Anbari sheiks to temporarily persuade them not to set up as many roadbombs to kill our kids.
    .
    ACORN is a big whatever, Rustydog. It doesn’t mean what you’re being told it means. You’re being taken for a ride again.
    .
    Talk about the bank bailout, if you want to get into the truly shady sh*t. The communists aren’t to whom the big tax-dollar lottery wins are being paid out, don’t you see, Rustydog? Stop living in a screenplay of a bad movie, and open your eyes.

  • rustyreturns

    But, it will be the rallying cry for those of us who know that Obama and the rest of the corrupt politicians in Washington do on a daily basis.
    .
    I no longer want my hard earned taxes given to the likes of ACORN, to GM and Chrysler as bailouts to keep the big unions afloat.
    .
    And, yes, to stop the big bailouts and stimulus to the other Wall Street types.
    .
    It is ALL corrupt and it is time for the people of this great country to stand up and say, “No More”.
    .
    We don’t want your healthcare Obama, “No More Big Government wasteful spending”.
    .
    You are the delusioned one stuart in your Progressive ideals. Talk to some other fool on this site, but you will not have an ear from me.

  • stuartzechman

    …Alright, buddy.
    .
    We’ll talk again when you feel like it.

  • stuartzechman

    I think that a big problem liberals have is that we immediately laugh and think this kind of a thing is an obvious joke:

    http://washingtonindependent.com/58808/demint-apply-the-constitution-to-health-care-when-its-convenient
    .
    In a phone interview with TWI following his speech to the Tea Party crowd this afternoon in Washington, Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.) laid out his philosophy for applying the Constitution to health care. In a nutshell: invoke the Constitution when it’s expedient to do so, ignore it when it’s not.
    .
    Asked whether states should use the 10th Amendment to prevent health care reform from taking effect, he replied that an assertion of states’ rights was “probably the only way we’re going to stop this reckless spending.” He continued, “There’s no constitutional authority for the government to actually do [the reform proposed by Democrats], but whether the courts take it up is a different matter.”
    .
    The rules change, however, when it comes to Medicare.

    DeMint expressed doubts as to the legality of Medicare under the Constitution, but said, “Regardless of constitutionality, it is a promise that we have to keep. … I think Medicare and Social Security have to be protected.”
    .
    When asked if there was any chance that health reform legislation drafted by the Democratic Congress could win his support and that of his fellow conservatives, he replied, “No, because they’re not willing to talk about anything but bigger government.” The role of Republicans in the debate, he said, is to kill the current iteration of reform and start over.
    .
    “If we stop [Obama] here, we can get to real reform,” he said. “If he gets this through, he’ll go to cap-and-tax and all sorts of other things.”
    .
    He opened his speech to the Tea Party protesters by saying, “Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Waterloo.” It’s not the first time that he’s referred to the health reform debate as the battle that will lead to the Obama administration’s demise. This time, however, he also pulled Republicans into the mix.
    .
    “I think you’re going to see some Republicans primaries who have been big spenders,” he said in the phone interview.

    It’s no joke.
    .
    This kind of thing has been going on for the past 20 years or so. We need to understand why it has worked so well over that 20 years, instead of dismissing it as obviously stupid crackpot appeal. We need to understand what we have done poorly or not at all, that such talk isn’t laughed down by everybody, not just “smart people” like us.

  • rustyreturns

    “smart people” like us.

    .
    Oh yes stuart, the far left are indeed smart. That is why they have choosen Barach HUSSEIN Obama to be their Messiah, their spokesperson, their ACORN-in-cheif.
    .
    Don’t under estimate the people who stand for the Constitution, for fiscal responsibility in government. The conservative Democrats, Republicans and Independents who see a fringe group of the Democrat Party who wish to provide the largest entitlement to ever be enacted by this government will be stopped.
    .
    Medicare was an entitlement that was fought against by most convervatives at the time. But, now that time has passed, and people have invested their hard earned wages into Medicare, it is too late to disolve it now. But, I also think in time, especially if the far left gets ObamaCare passed, Medicare will be disolved. Seniors who now rely on it, and have paid for those benefits will be the ultimate losers. But, Obama has his eyes on all of the funds in trust that is Medicare, and he wants to do nothing more than “redistribute the wealth”.
    .
    It isn’t a joke, you and your fellow Communitarians or Progressives or whatever label you choose to identify yourself with these days will be in for a major fight in 2010. Pushed out of the government, and replaced by fiscally conservative politicians whether they are Democrat, Repubilcan or Independent, who will listen to their constituents for a change, and not the special interest groups with acronyms such as ACORN, SEIU, STORM, COC, AFL-CIO, and ACLU.

  • Cliff

    Medicare was an entitlement that was fought against by most convervatives at the time. But, now that time has passed, and people have invested their hard earned wages into Medicare, it is too late to disolve it now. But, I also think in time, especially if the far left gets ObamaCare passed, Medicare will be disolved.
    .
    Witness now the rarely seen Double Gordian Backward Logic Loop, turning the long-reviled Medicare into a virtuous program to be defended unto death against the predations of a Socialist.

  • jcapan

    SZ,

    LOL, RD could contain himself for all of 2 hours, in his short-lived commitment to tune you out. He just can’t quit ya!

    Back to that tbogg (W-ho-TF is he anyway?) piece I posted the other day, I’m curious how you would respond to him. He was speaking of “the Glenn Beck conservative wing (a group of people who make the Dittoheads look like Quakers),” which RD has admitted being a part of, while Spob of all people was the voice of conserative sanity, labeling Beck ‘excecrable,’ I think it was.

    In light of this, and tbogg’s conclusion: “These are not the people you need or want. You want the mushy middle and the mushy middle loves people who project strength and power,” I guess like a lot of liberals here, I’m puzzled by your very different take.

    Mind you, I’m not condemning you for what you do, it’s just that, as I’ve said in the past, your formidable skills are better suited to negating the centrist CW of the Time(rs) or striving to persuade your fellow dems (the “I trust Obama” wing of the party etc.) Now, I know you a) can walk and chew gum, and b) know Rusty is not your only audience (i.e. that said mushy middle & others see your arguments with him).

    Nonetheless, it is a bit tough to swallow at times:

    Gunny on Sept. 8th: “with all due respect to Stuart. You are the one who changed, you didn’t have to. But you did. And its great because now when I read a Rusty post, I might just learn something.”

    RD two days later: “Maybe Kim Jong Il will blow you off the map finally, finish the job that should have been completed 60 years ago. I certainly hope he does.”

    Now, first off, this is not at all personal. My reaction was bemusement really. B/C here’s the way I saw that whole thing (detente) play out. With that sweet as peaches “blockquote” exchange serving as foreplay, it seems to me that RD cozied up to some stinking commie swine for a boozy weekend, awoke to find himself in our sinful environment, found himself in touch with something long since repressed, his humanity, and violently reacted back to his former self. Actually, a film springs to mind, Chris Cooper as the repressed gay neighbor in American Beauty, who first reached out to Kevin Spacey’s character, then, fragile, feeling rejected, reacts as most borderline fascist pyschopaths tend to, murderously.

    So, hey, I can see that your agenda transcends Rusty Dog, and it’s amusing to watch you practicing what he calls the “messiah” preach, but doesn’t it strike you as the least bit unseemly, engaging with this wanker. It’s akin to missionary work isn’t it?

  • redraven937

    Shorter Rusty: Medicare and Social Security is Socialism I can believe in!

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    rusty — the vast majority of Americans are not against health care, you have them confused with vast majority of rightwing fruitcakes who can’t count and didn’t attend science camp either.

  • ilikechips

    HEY..LIBERAL FATA$$ JOE kLEIN..YOU GOT SCHOOLED AND LOOKED LIKE A FOOL ON MORNING JOE..WHERE’S THE COVERAGE OF THE FREEDOM MARCH IN D.C…OH..THATS RIGHT..IT’S NOT AN ANTI BUSH ANTI WAR RALLY..THEN IT WOULD BE FRONT PAGE NEWS LIKE CODE PINK…MSM IS A JOKE..

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    rusty — I bet if Jesus told you that Acorn doesn’t mean what you think it means and it is okay for folks to have health care you would shout from your church pew — you lie!
    .
    God have mercy on your soul because the thought police are after you for not having any. Run! Hide! Be very afraid!

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    You’re right Stuart. It’s about time Democrats and all people of good will recognize what’s happening. We’ve been here before. Of course, then it was father flanagan or whatever his name was instead of Glenn Beck. Rush Limbaugh and first lady wannabe Michelle Milking, come from a long tradition of demagogues that American has always managed to ignore just in the nick of time. I suppose once the media stop fretting abouit losing market share they will figure out they had better sound the alarm bells. Because stupidity no knows bounds and it has an insatiable appetite. That’s why my biggest fear is these private contractors — you did notice how fond Cheney was of 24 right?

  • ohiolib

    Has anyone else noticed how much nicer it is without hula here? I can laugh at rusty and freeper on the same page.

  • richinnj

    If you’re not going to deal in facts, rusty, there was no reason to return.

  • freeinpa

    Then your role as a clown is complete

  • freeinpa

    ilvoternew

    9.1Is this the same prostitution ring that David Vitter (R-LA) used to frequent ? Didnt know that Acorn and Vitter were this tight

    No it was like the one BArney Franks ran before he found it was more profitable to rape and pillage Fannie ((no pun intended) and Freddie

  • freeinpa

    Cliff

    “Medicare was an entitlement that was fought against by most convervatives at the time. But, now that time has passed, and people have invested their hard earned wages into Medicare, it is too late to disolve it now.”

    This is exactly why HC needs to be stopped from ths intrusuve government power grab. Once an entitlement is started they never turn back. Medicare’s costs came in over 10 times what the original estmaites and it was a fraction of this nightmare. There will be no recovery from this.

  • stuartzechman

    Oregon JC:

    doesn’t it strike you as the least bit unseemly, engaging with this wanker. It’s akin to missionary work isn’t it?

    I’m a little tired, so I’ll be forced to keep this short.
    .
    Bear with me please –this fine, perceptive (in terms of technique) commentary of yours deserves better, but it’s been a rough week.
    .
    I should probably try to say this simply, since my fatigue may obscure a thorough treatise at this hour, but here goes.
    .
    Part of the power of the centrists in this government has also been derived from their appropriation of an intermediary role between right and left, don’t you see?
    .
    The centrists act to render opaque everything they touch. Their freak mediation ideology causes them to symbolize and signify everything to an even more profound degree than right and left. Splitting the baby in half requires that something new be created from that ideological act of willful, sociopathic destruction wholly out of fictional, mythological cloth. The institutions that they worship need a language to be constantly re-created and maintained in accordance with consumer capitalism’s “new product/new season/new spectacle” fetishization, and this function also serves to mask devotion to unchanging elite structures. They insert themselves and their language and signifiers even in between right and left, obscuring these enemy ideologies from each other. When the left does not know the right, and the right does not know the left, in a very real way they do not know themselves. They cannot fight each other effectively. They chase phantom brigades of the other. The centrists maintain power over both, as each becomes exhausted in turn.
    .
    Centrists seek to be the unseen road beneath our vehicles, determining through control of language our ultimate national destination, as the left and right briefly, blindly wrestle the wheel from each others’ control. Centrists’ hegemonic mediation, their relentless focus on relationships of power, their cultivation of natural allies in the “objective”, reportage-as-amoral-commodity, power-parasitic, sibling-corporatist, frame-mongering fourth estate, all serve their small “c” catholic purpose: technocratically managed, elite-directed change.
    .
    The more left and right see each other as Platonic shadows to box, the less control we have, the less self-knowledge we gain. The centrists make this possible by exploiting that ignorance for their own ends. We perpetuate it by fighting at the expense of energy spent signifying. We lack discovery, our ideology stagnates, we are alienated from ourselves.
    .
    I had a talk with my Marxist accountant the other night after P&L statements had been gone over, in which I casually mentioned that “Gentleman’s Agreement (1947)” was a leftist film.
    .
    He was genuinely taken aback by this statement, because, to him, this couldn’t be left as he understood it to be, because there was no mention or context of class struggle to explain the motivation of the characters.
    .
    He brought up “It’s a Wonderful Life” as an example truly leftist film, because (of course) there was Potter (lord/capital) vs George Bailey (everyman/worker productivity). After I gently reminded him that the film wasn’t socialist in the slightest –after all, the premise is the petty-bourgeoisie represented by George Bailey somehow identify with the proletarians with whom they endow the structure of shared capital (savings and loan), which hardly resembles Marx’s predictions of classes’ tendencies during struggle– I explained how a context bereft of class conflict could be “leftist as hell” (as I put it).
    .
    I first pointed out that the film was about primarily culture, and the deliberate changing of it. It was about consciousness, and its direction and appropriation. The premises of the film are that unexamined, solidly constructed social relations tolerate traditional injustices and harms, and therefore must be examined, consciousness altered, power overthrown, and culture changed. This is revolutionary, of course.
    .
    I then asked my accountant to imagine a conservative perspective, in which things are presumed to be the way they are for good reason, that social relations, relations of production, culture, morality, religion, all are established knowns closely correlated to qualities of value –like “rice and fish go well together”.
    .
    It took how many centuries for humans to have been stable enough in their environments to move the adaptation process along to the apex of “rice and fish”? How many centuries did it take for us to have stopped chasing the caribou across Pacific ice bridges long enough to create olive oil? Or geometry? Or romantic love? Or God? Think of these characteristics not as inevitable outcomes of an upward modernist developmental line, but the hard learned lessons of millennia. Things are as they should be, because we’ve come this far. The great men of history have bequeathed to us, their worshipful descendants, precious gifts of common knowledge, a book of laws, social order, rice and fish.
    .
    In the conservatives’ world, change –even change that seeks to alleviate known and tolerated harms and injustices– carries a terrifying risk of unintended consequences, and an even more terrifying risk of societies losing the collective memory of the value rice and fish together. In their universe, modernity is literally destruction. The upward line of historical human development to them is a death spiral, a melted ice cube, a recipe forgotten. The dark ages are always at the end of empire, in the rightists’ history.
    .
    The destruction of that established collective wisdom –in the case of “Gentleman’s Agreement”, the dominant culture’s anti-semitism– isn’t necessarily a good thing, even if individual examples of tradition’s failure are demonstrated. After all, is there really a difference between prejudice against the infidel other, and the preference for rice and fish? Each is an artifact of tradition, custom, ritual. Each is, in its own way, an inheritance. What if, in discarding one, we let go of the other? What if culture is character, and good inextricable from bad?
    .
    The film “Gentleman’s Agreement” is leftist because it answers that question with “So be it. What is lost is lost. Improvements can and must be made. The status quo is intolerable. We must rebuild anew. Consciousness must be altered. Patterns must be disrupted. Culture must change. Humans can be different. It is inevitable. Look forward to a better tomorrow!
    .
    (Did you see “Escape From New York” yet, Oregon JC? It’s a profoundly right-wing film, isn’t it?)
    .
    I mention this because it is from intimacy with the rightists’ perspective that this perception can be derived. My Marxist accountant hadn’t seen things from that other side, and had perhaps forgotten what a threat we are to the right. The context of class struggle isn’t necessary for a story to be leftist, if its premise is of history as a long march to justice, in which people along the way shed their arbitrary, harmful practices, and, individual by individual, join the line moving forward toward the good goal.
    .
    Sometimes knowledge of the other is knowledge of the self. In confronting the right, we both reveal ourselves and unmask the center. The centrists’ mediation of left and right must be mitigated back to its proper role, so that this perverse imbalance ends, and their domination ceases. They must not be allowed to translate our experiences of the world, and our ideologies to each other, by holding up a curtain of language between us. They must be shoved out of the way, so that we can clearly see the right. We –both populist left and populist right– must be able to speak for ourselves and directly to each other. If we can’t engage, we can’t fight. If we can’t fight, we can’t win. If we can’t win, the centrists win –but I believe that the left can win that fight, if we engage directly.
    .
    Only in this way can we on the populist left re-assert ourselves, and lift the centrists’ heavy break on popular will, so that we are the masters of this nation’s fate again. We will then have the democratic power to set their beloved institutions –corporate and state– competing against each other, and maintain individual liberty, genius and conscience in their rightful place as the true heirs of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness“.
    .
    If we’re still not shooting at each other, then the debate needs to be between us, right and left, and not between the right and the centrists, the left and the centrists and then, ultimately, the centrists and the centrists. Up until the time I notice the slime left by tadpole brownshirts in the streets learning to breathe on dry land, I’ll keep talking.
    .
    I’m patient.
    .
    I hope that this hasn’t been too terribly tedious, Oregon JC, I’m really, really tired. Thanks for reading and (I hope seriously) considering this.

  • jcapan

    SZ, thanks for the response. I was genuinely interested, as I knew you had other motivations. You offer a compelling case. Much to mull over. Though at the moment, just back from the pub–watching sumo with two Kiwis who eat Yankee lightweights like me for lunch–I’m incapable of expressing much of anything. Belching, scratching, the primordial joys are all I’m left to.
    ~
    Will track you down in the next few days when I have a block of time to think this over and respond. Likewise, if/when you’re beat, no need to try to put it down at 3am–you can always get back to me at a later date. Though sometimes, I know, the devil takes ahold of you and you just have to get it said.
    ~
    And no NY97 yet–wife went to the video store yesterday without me. But it’s on my list.

  • michaelfury

    More people need to “talk” about September 11.

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/barry-jennings-speaks/

  • apollyon07

    “Twaddling on about North Korea and Iran makes you irrelevant to the real battle.”
    .
    Um, what? NOTHING is more important than national security.

  • http://acmeanvil.wordpress.com/ acmeanvil

    So did the High Sheriffs finally flush hula, or was it just not able to pay its cable bill this month?

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