In the Arena

Glenn Greenwald

Twice in the past month, my private communications have been splashed about the internet. That such a thing would happen is unfortunate, and dishonorable, but sadly inevitable, I suppose. I ignored the first case, in which a rather pathetic woman acolyte of Greenwald’s published a hyperbolic account of a conversation I had with her at a beach picnic on Cape Cod. Now, Greenwald himself has published private emails of mine that were part of a conversation taking place on a list-serve. In one of those emails, I say that Greenwald “cares not a whit for America’s national security.”

I’d like to quote here from a subsequent email on that thread, which Greenwald hasn’t published, in which I explain why I have such strong feelings about Greenwald:

 For the past several years, Greenwald has conducted a persistent, malicious campaign to distort who I am and where I stand. He is a mean-spirited, graceless bully. During that time, I have never seen him write a positive sentence about the US military, which has transformed itself dramatically for the better since Rumsfeld’s departure (indeed, he ridiculed me when I reported that the situation in Anbar Province was turning around in 2007). I have never seen him acknowledge that the work of the clandestine service—performed disgracefully by the CIA during the early Bush years—is an absolute necessity in a world where terrorists have the capability to attack us at any time, in almost any place. Nor have I seen [him] acknowledge that such a threat exists, nor make a single positive suggestion about how to confront that threat in ways that might conform to his views. Therefore, I have seen no evidence that he cares one whit about the national security of the United States. It is not hyperbole, it is a fact.

I am not a religious reader of Greenwald–he does go on, and on–and it’s possible that I missed extensive posts in which he praises the Armed Forces or makes positive suggestions about how to track possible communications between terrorists abroad and their confederates here. But I sort of doubt that. What I have seen from him, ad nauseum, are intemperate attacks in which he questions the character of–no, it’s worse than that: he slimes–anyone who has the temerity to disagree with him.

I agree with Greenwald on some things, and appreciate his insights on others. But he is a thoroughly dishonorable person–as he proved by releasing my private emails–and, when it comes to his oft-trumpeted belief in the right to privacy, a stone hypocrite as well.

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  • hellslittlestangel

    Maybe Joe Klein should get out of journalism. It’s mean and nasty and no one would miss him anyway.

  • FlownOver

    I don’t know about other Swampland denizens, but I’m getting pretty tired of posting that uses this blog to advance inter-blog personality issues. It assumes everyone who reads Swampland posts is aware of what goes up on other blogs (not the case, btw) and it assumes ad hominem attacks are useful to advance policy discussions.

    Sliming back tends to vitiate complaints about having ben slimed. Enough already!

  • hellslittlestangel

    “…a rather pathetic woman acolyte of Greenwald’s…”

    “…intemperate attacks in which he questions the character of–no, it’s worse than that: he slimes–anyone who has the temerity to disagree with him.”

    POL (puking out loud).

  • FlownOver

    Yes, yes… “having been slimed.” The Preview function is there for a reason.

  • momentomaury

    “I am not a religious reader of Greenwald–he does go on, and on…”
    .
    Plus, there’s all that reading and research and, like, stuff, and some of it is long and detailed. Who has all that time between cocktail parties?
    .
    I’m coining the phrase ‘twitter journalist’ for guys like Joe who find it too time consuming to be bothered with details.

  • deconstructiva

    From: Fake Sarah Palin
    To: Real Joe Klein

    Joe,
    Leaked emails, such as, you two? Welcome to my world. I now all about having my emails leaked to the liberal media. Emails? Don’t talk about emails. Are you kidding me? Emails? I’m just hoping I like can start up my new twitter thingy, but found out just that I can only use 140 carrot tours, NOT 140 pages. No wonder the tweets kept getting cut of. Also. It must be the fault of those media starlets. Starlets? Don’t talk about starlets. Are you kidding me? Starlets? I just want to win the WH and then smoke salmon and shoot wolves all day. Vote for me in 2012! And please donate to SarahPac[tm]. Sweet kisses.

    Sarah

  • darius3

    So… you’re upset because Greenwald found out about, and publicized, the rude things you were saying behind his back?

    That’s pretty petty of you, Joe.

  • trifecta55

    I think this was a dumb post Joe. You need a thicker skin. Now, there will be a counter post by Greenwald, links throughout the blogosphere. The vast majority of people don’t know about the quarrel.
    .
    Greenwald, who has faults of his own, has genuinely nailed you a few times for sloppy reporting, People are going to believe that this is about that, rather than any excesses Glenn has committed.
    ..
    The stuff about hating the troops was petty as well. Even if true, it really isn’t provable. Greenwald will now document every time in the last 20 years he has praised members of the military with footnotes and lengthy updates, again making you look petty about this.

  • momentomaury

    “…intemperate attacks in which he questions the character of–no, it’s worse than that: he slimes–anyone who won’t admit their own mistakes.”
    .
    There. I fixed it.

  • hellslittlestangel

    Oh for the days when a flame war was just a couple of doofuses flogging their petty grievances, and only other doofuses were aware of it.
    Although in this case, the former is still true.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    makes positive suggestions about how to track possible communications between terrorists abroad and their confederates here
    .
    It’s called getting a FISA warrant. and it’s stunningly easy to do.
    .
    We can only wonder why you don;t know that. Maybe it’s the quality of your sources…….

  • gysgt213

    Joe-This is a fight best not joined. By you. Especially when you seem to advance here that it is in a journalist’s job description to praise the military. Since when did that enter a professional journalist’s jobj description? Does Glenn not wear enough military flair for you? The military has its own public affairs dept to let everyone know what good work they are do.

    One positive suggestion I have seen Glenn put forth to track communications is for the United States to follow its own laws and hold its leaders accountable when they. But we all know you have serious issues when our dear Rulers are held accountable.

  • hellslittlestangel

    This is really turning into a blog that only spooge or rustytheclown could love.

    I’m beginning to “care not a whit” (now I’ll take a pinch of snuff) for Swampland.

  • shepherdwong

    I knew I should have just looked away.

  • deconstructiva

    I guess Joe needed to reach his page hits quota today.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Joe, Glenn is a lawyer. He writes predominantly about media criticism and legal issues. It wouldn’t make sense for him to be praising Gates’s reforms; it’s not his thing.

    It’s also rather chilling that “praising the military” is a prerequisite to being taken seriously. That doesn’t seem to be what being a journalist is all about. I’ve never seen him say anything intemperate or untoward or inappropriate about the military; do you have any examples to support your contention?

    Frankly, your “he is criticizing what the military is doing, so he therefore hates the military and doesn’t care about national security” argument strikes me as downright Cheneyesque.

  • destor23

    Joe,

    To be fair, you can’t post something to a listserv and then call it a private email. Listserv posting are basically public and I know that you, as a journalist wouldn’t have any problem with sourcing items to emails that somebody posted in such a manner (nor should you).

    As for the substance of your take on Greenwald — what if he just disagrees with you (as I do) about the magnitude of the threats that America faces and about the extent to which civil liberties need to be curtailed or CIA powers need to be expanded. I don’t think it’s right to say that he doesn’t care a whit about security. Maybe some of us think you care too much about it and not enough about other worthy topics?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I find it fascinating that Joe has seen fit to get the links to Glenn documents removed (presumably by contacting Media Matters and kvetching) but feels absolutely OK with publishing his own version with the context removed.

    He seems pretty adept at this internet thingy after all….

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    … and come to think of it, I’m not sure he has criticized what the military is doing– he focuses his criticism on political decision-makers. Not that criticizing the military is inherently bad or anti-national security, I just don’t think that’s really his thing.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “Twice in the past month, my private communications have been splashed about the internet.”

    Uh, didn’t Joe Klein post someone’s mean e-mail to him- complete with first and last name- right here at Swampland a couple of weeks ago?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    touche’
    .
    here are the offending docs:
    .
    http://utdocuments.blogspot.com/

  • stuartzechman

    Joe Klein:

    I have seen no evidence that he cares one whit about the national security of the United States.

    Spoken like Dick Cheney.
    .
    Why should Greenwald need to protest his national security bona fides (proxy for his patriotism, let’s face it) as if he were a centrist politician running for national office being advised by you and Shrum, Joe Klein?
    .
    That Kristol, Krauthammer and the rest of the rightists –and you and Ignatius and the rest of the centrists– will make political hay out of such perceived lack of public demonstration is exactly what’s wrong with the current politics of national security in the Beltway.
    .
    It’s also what got Democrats to vote us into invading Iraq, and what got you to mouth squeamish support that invasion on Meet The Press, Joe Klein.
    .
    This is very, very disappointing, but hardly unpredictable.
    .
    Greenwald should be praised for not shouting his national security faith from the rooftops (and therefore not planting the debate firmly in the neo-conservatives’ desired frame), not attacked from the right with Coulter-esque slurs –but that’s just like centrists to take such advantage where they feel they can, isn’t it, Joe Klein?

  • Paul-no not that one

    Thanks PD-I had zero luck with Swampland’s “Search this blog” feature.

  • stuartzechman

    Sorry, that should read “what got you to mouth squeamish support forthat invasion on Meet The Press“.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    Joe Klein, perhaps a better use of your time would be to figure out why there is so much animosity between you and Greenwald? While I can admit that some on the left can be a bit extreme in their views about the military, and civil liberties can you also admit that the centrists’ tendency to marginalize their voices might have something to do with the anger and so-called mean spiritedness that you refer to? The msm has focused on stenography and scorekeeping ad nauseum and you people don’t seem to listen to our complaints, yet you want us to listen to your pet peeves and what do you do — you engage in a personal battle with Greenwald, that we could care less about and your chief weapons are stenography and score keeping, the very things we hate and you expected us to what? side with you, understand?

  • deconstructiva

    Maybe someone needs to buy Joe and Glenn a beer and hold a photo-op. But who will do this? Anna Wintour? Maureen Dowd?

  • Jim, Foolish Literalist

    **During that time, I have never seen him write a positive sentence about the US military,**

    Ah, he hates the troops. And probably baseball, apple pie, and his mother. I bet he doesn’t put his hand over his heart during the national anthem. When did he stop beating his partner? And has anyone seen his birth certificate?

    What a cheesy bit of milquetoast McCarthyism. It’s hard to take this post seriously in light of that nonsense. The pathetic use of this strawman would be unworthy of the worst sort of GOP backbencher. This is the Joe Klein who threw a (public) hissyfit at Jacob Weisberg for guessing (correctly) that Joe Klein was the author of Primary Colors, leading to what is, apparently, the ultimate Kleinian indictment: “You are gaining a reputation as a fellow unworthy of a dinner invitation!”

    Joe, maybe some friendly editor or colleague could screen your posts for elements of self-parodic self-pity before you hit publish. You’re better than this, when your massive ego and paper-thin skin don’t get in your way.

  • genjcchristian

    Mr. Klein, Over the years, I’ve gone a back and forth in my opinion of you as a journalist, but this this pretty much seals it.

    I hadn’t given a moment’s thought about your character, until now, when you decided to attack someone by questioning his support for the military. You sound like a second rate Bircher at the height of the cold way. You have no evidence Greenwald hates the military.

    Sure, Greenwald has been tough on you, but you deserve it when you claim you did not cheerlead for the war when, in fact, you did. He had the quotes and the videotape to prove it.

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng

    I doubt Glenn will make notice of this bit of venting by Joe, it really isn’t worth his time. Nor was it worth Joe’s time, unless it saves him a trip to his therapist.

    I appreciated the comment above about posts on list serves. The idea that they aren’t “public” as soon as you hit the send key is just silly, as silly as Joe’s pal Hoekstra was when he twittered his plans for the day on a trip to Iraq, unaware that “the twitters” pass through “a series of tubes” out to the big wide world.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    What do Joe Klein and Dick Cheney have in common?
    .
    The more they defend their position, the less defensible it becomes. Sometimes silence IS the correct response.

  • themaverickformerlyknownasbasilbrush

    Did I miss Joe Klein’s heroic service in uniform? Did I miss the moment when he denounced an illegal war? Did I miss the moment when he exposed the lies of Pete Hoekstra?
    .
    Too right, I did.
    .
    Primary Colors, Joe.

  • gysgt213

    Primary Colors. I think Joe thought that him being a journalist and all he could published private books that the rest of the press were supposed to ignore that he authored.

  • shepherdwong

    Well put, genjcchristian. I can’t speak to Klein’s character but it’s clear that his intellect is seriously corrupted by a seething hatred of liberals, a deep need for the acceptance of authority figures and a typical inside-the-beltway preoccupation with the political, to the grotesque exclusion of everything that truly matters.

  • genjcchristian

    And let’s not forget this bit of Joe Klein Bush worship. http://www.time.com/time/columnist/klein/article/0,9565,1205323,00.html

    My God, what a hack! So easily parodied. http://www.myspace.com/jokeline

  • stuartzechman

    Excellent to see your commentary here, General.
    .
    …For those of you who are unaware, this is General JC Christian, Patriot’s fine blog.

  • ilvoternew

    heh heh Joe – now you’ve gotten yourself Greenwalded and Kossed !!! The regulars of Kos are about to invade your little column here :-)

    …and dont even mention ditching the public option in the next couple of days – the purity brigade will “lynch” you !!

  • juniusredivivus

    The reading today is from the Book of Klein, chapter 73, beginning at the 13th verse:
    .
    And there were those who muttered against Klein, for there was discontent in the Land of Bafflegab, and the Centrists were discomforted. And there arose a mighty man of valor, that was named Greenwald. And around him were acolytes, many and pathetic, and they did say many unkind things, even unto publishing alarmingly accurate reports of things said at picnics, which did mightily enrage Klein, so that the blood rushed to his head and the steam out of his ears. And Klein took up his word-processor to smite them. Vast was the word-processor, of sounding brass and luminous silicon, and the length of it was seven bull-sh*ts, and the width of it was three. And the prophet Hoekstra blessed Klein and anointed him with his own manly juicings, and Klein went forth to battle. And as he issued from the Gate of Broder, through which a camel may not fit, the face of Klein was terrible, and his chariots numberless as the secret WMD sites of Iraq. And Klein came down unto the Plain of Fisa, and confronted Greenwald, who was a stripling youth, armed only with a sling…..

  • immanentize

    This post is just weird. Greenwald is focussed and prolific — maybe wordy, but he is not meanspirited. And to attack his patriotism is just the kind of jingoistic claptrap that ends in, well, lawlessness, torture, and tyrany. After all, patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundral….

    To only slightly alter a quote (by changing the name) from one of my favorite films, “People Will Talk:”

    “[Joe Kline], you are a little man. It is not that you’re short. You’re little — in the mind and the heart. Tonight you tried to make a man little whose boots you couldn’t touch if you stood on tiptoe on top of the highest mountain of the world. And as it turned out, you are even littler than you were before.”

    Perhaps this is the real problem. Your complaints look so small because they are coming from a small frightened place where you question your own worth.

  • ymmartin

    Joe, I just saw the posts with the emails. You were responding with your Time email account? I’m sorry, but most of us 9-5ers know that you do anything with your work email, there are limits to your expectation of privacy. Considering you more often than not work from a home network, logging in with a private email account would make a big difference in your argument. Instead, this post seems petty and childish.

    As to the nature of the content and the points you make, honestly, I can’t judge, but if the basis of the post is that you expected your correspondence to be private, next time don’t publicize your identity (your work email) so readily.

  • genjcchristian

    I love this line in Joe’s little temper tantrum:

    “he questions the character of–no, it’s worse than that: he slimes–anyone who has the temerity to disagree with him.”

    It comes right after Joe accuses Glenn of hating the military.

    I guess self-awareness is not Joe’s thing.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Somebody call the WHAM BA LANCEEEEEEEEEE!
    .
    I mean seriously Joke, you published an email just the other day of a private citizen with their email address and all and YOU are calling Glenn dishonest?
    .
    Dude get a frikkin life or at least some tough skin. You come off sounding like a whiny lil beyatch every five minutes responding to what has been said to you or about you on the intertubes. If being criticized is too much for you why don’t you pack it in and go do something else? Out of everything going on in the world today you choose trying to get in a public pissing match as your subject to write on here at Swampland. I assume you must not have any editors for your posts but if you do they should all be fired for allowing you to try to act like a 5 year old using their platform.
    .
    And it shows how sh*tty of a journalist that you are that you admit you don’t read Glenn much but then go on to make a blanket statement about what he has said or not said about the CIA or any other national security forces. Ass hole is too nice of a term for the kind of person who pulls that kind of blatantly dishonest bullsh*t. It doesn’t make you some kind of patriot to suck off the CIA every time you get. As a matter of fact it makes you quite the opposite Joke, you would think the Iraq War would have taught you that.
    .
    One more thing, its hasn’t escaped anybody that you did not refute anything the “pathetic woman acolyte” said about your conversation. Pretty telling, no?

  • grollican

    I ignored the first case, in which a rather pathetic woman acolyte of Greenwald’s published a hyperbolic account of a conversation I had with her at a beach picnic on Cape Cod.
    .
    Translation: I pretended not to notice, but my black heart seethed with hatred and malice. And yes, she basically told the truth. Damn her!
    .
    Now, Greenwald himself has published private emails of mine that were part of a conversation taking place on a list-serve.
    .
    Translation: I was quite happy to help Bush spy on ordinary Americans and damage the civil liberties of the country, but that’s so obviously different from my slandering Glenn Greenwald and being caught doing it.
    .
    For the past several years, Greenwald has conducted a persistent, malicious campaign to distort who I am and where I stand. He is a mean-spirited, graceless bully.
    .
    Translation: how dare the little bast*rd provide accurate and precise fiskings of my tainted and politically corrupt water-carrying for the GOP and the Blue Dogs?
    .
    It is not hyperbole, it is a fact.
    .
    Translation: I really can’t understand why people refer to Pinnochio’s Pizza as Klein Food.
    .
    I am not a religious reader of Greenwald–he does go on, and on–and it’s possible that I missed extensive posts in which he praises the Armed Forces or makes positive suggestions about how to track possible communications between terrorists abroad and their confederates here.
    .
    Translation: actually reading and analyzing is such a chore. I’ll just make it up as I go along. If the truth suffers, well, I am a journalist, what did you expect?
    .
    But I sort of doubt that. What I have seen from him, ad nauseum, are intemperate attacks in which he questions the character of–no, it’s worse than that: he slimes–anyone who has the temerity to disagree with him.
    .
    Translation: no, I don’t read Greenwald 24/7. I just google my own name and his together every hour on the hour.

  • http://straightflushing.blogspot.com lowellfield

    You’ve got nothing on Greenwald, Joe. He doesn’t sufficiently praise the military? What a buffoonish non sequitur! He doesn’t “distort” where you stand he exposes it.

  • Cliff

    Well done.

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  • davethompsonmpls

    Joe, I hope I never have to read another blog post from you where you complain about what another blogger did or said about you. This is not your personal soapbox. You are expected to contribute to national policy discussions, not disgust your readership with petty personal concerns. And yes, I do mean petty. No one but you gives a sh*t.

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  • square1

    Time.com, 2:20 p.m.:

    Scherer’s Swampland posts on the state of journalism had Klein unusually distressed.

    “Not the right time to be looking for a new job,” mused Klein, as he reflected on the thinning ranks of his profession. “Or the right age.”

    Klein closed his office door, pulled open his desk drawer and started to reach for his small, pre-packed pipe. Yes, incredibly, the same one from the McGovern campaign.

    But the prospect of a smooth hit just wasn’t comforting him at the moment. He was agitated and needed to blow off some steam. He briefly contemplated a trip to the gym, but his knee was acting up on him again.

    No, what Klein needed was to lay down a good, old-fashioned ass-kicking on one of these damned bloggers that had been plaguing him of late. Atrios? No, Greenwald.

    That bastard had actually attacked him for a very, very private conversation that he had had with some crazy woman at a summer BBQ. Who invades people’s lives like that?

    “Well, I did reprint the name and email of that Republican loon the other day,” remembered Klein, before dismissing the thought. “Nobody will put two and two together. These bloggers couldn’t research their own birthdays.”

    Yes, the post was coming together. Glenn Greenwald, Invader of Privacy. How ironic!

    Klein needed one more data point to draw a pattern. The listserv emails. That should do it.

    Klein closed the drawer, turned to the computer, and began to type.

    “Twice in the past month, my private communications have been splashed about the internet…”

  • dfh

    You win the thread. We’re done here.

  • http://ktheintz.wordpress.com/ kth

    Joe, I’m mostly one of your defenders here, but there’s nothing hypocritical in publishing received correspondence, and decrying a third party spying on similar correspondence.

    Surely you can see the difference between me publishing a letter that you sent to me (were you to so honor me), and the government intercepting it, holding the sealed letter over a pot of boiling water, opening it, reading it secretly, then re-sealing it and sending it along so that sender and receiver are both unaware that someone else has read it.

  • Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Another part of this screed that annoys me:
    “Twice in the past month, my private communications have been splashed about the internet”

    Can someone who pursues celebrity-pundit status as aggressively as Joe Klein does complain if his (semi-) private declamations on politics are given somewhat greater publicity than he intended?

  • pafro

    I love how Joe Klein bringing the D-baggery in front of an entire picnic full of people is somehow a personal communication.

  • alindc

    I thought accusing those with whom one disagrees of hating our troops went out of style during the second half of the Bush administration.

    Joe, I find your whole email to be illogical. Greenwald writes about civil liberties. It does not follow that he ought to make off-topic statements about how the military and CIA are wonderful, or “acknowledge” some particular, specific point you’ve made up today. What’s the point of that, other than to preemptively ward off poorly-reasoned criticism from other pundits? And why should he devote time to making suggestions as to how the clandestine service should operate? That’s not his area of expertise. Perhaps the military and CIA are more insulted by those who aren’t experts and yet insist on acting like they’re capable of giving serious strategic advice.

    >> Therefore, I have seen no evidence that he cares one whit about the national security of the United States. It is not hyperbole, it is a fact.>>

    Good grief, do you even know what a fact is?!

  • FlownOver

    Anna Wintour hoisting a cold one – a mental image for the ages.

    Thanks, decon.

  • dencal26

    Amazing revision of history from Klein. For 8 years I recall Klein bashing anything and everything the US Military and CIA did. Now he wants us to think he is serious about National Security? Klein should learn from his Israeli cousins. Only 4% of Israelis think Obama is pro Israel. Klein and Greenwald are both secular Bolsheviks not real Jews.

  • dencal26

    I find these secret societies that Klein belongs to be dangerous. I am sure these radical left wing Bolsheviks plot the destruction of the USA each day and coordinate their articles.

  • dencal26

    , in his November 13, 2007, blog posting, Klein wrote this:

    The war in Iraq has been a disaster, the stupidest foreign policy decision ever made by an American President.

    Why is Iraq with its 4000 American Dead worse than JFKs Vietnam with 58,000 dead? let me guess? Cause Bush is GOP? Joe is dishonest.

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  • bryanfromhouston

    How shall I begin?

    There have already been some great posts, but I would like to extend their arguments.

    What is it that they say about the height of hypocrisy? Joe, you know better than this. In fact, I am sure that you have used that old kettle and black line re: the teapot.

    And speaking of tea-bagging, this post puts you darn close to setting up shop…..your paranoia is paramount to being a birther on patriotism. Let’s just say that you should have quit before you wrote “Twice….”

    Goodnight and goodluck.

  • hleaf

    Ignore the dittoheads. Greenwald is a tremendously smart man, but I’ve been reading him faithfully, and I can’t remember a single instance of acknowledging good-faith points of view other than his. He seems incapable of even a basic understanding of disagreements others could have. Even though I don’t have many disagreements, just the tone is enough to make any reasonable individual trying to understand both sides a little ill. His tone is right for the torture allegations, pretty much nothing else.

  • antmuk

    A bit testy, Joe? There are more important issues in the world to write about than your feelings about Greenwald. (Dishonorable, really?)
    .
    Besides, the people who actually read your posts/columns know that Greenwald’s critique of your work is usually spot on!! I find his speaking truth to power quite refreshing.

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  • awb75

    that is one of the biggest problems with the internet- people can say anything anonymously with no recourse

    there is a saying “honor among thieves” so sorry but I do think that private emails should NOT be posted without the writer’s permission — unless there is physical jeopardy or harm potentially involved

    Joe Klein is a great asset to the media – this is not kissing up this is a fact -

    Did you see him on Reliable Sources last weekend? He was the ONLY one with a sense of decency-

    and sorry call me Pollyanna – but decency and trust have to have SOME place in this culture or we are all really doomed

    So all the brave anonymous mean spirited people – come out of the closet –

    allison

  • pflatley

    Wow – not your finest hour, Joe. How can you argue that someone deserves scorn for not saying something, and on top of that admit that you hadn’t even done the research to make such an illogical claim. I don’t recall you blogging about Union army, so I’m able to claim that you supported the Confederacy? Likewise, I don’t recall you blogging about those who died at Pearl Harbor, so I’m able to claim that you supported the Japanese? Totally grammar school junk, not even mentioning the ad hominem. You’ve gone down quite a few notches.

  • Aaron

    “a rather pathetic woman acolyte”

    Joe Klein is still a sexist pig.

    (Fortunately for us, she’s not Catholic, handicapped, or black, given his history of attacking other Little People who Pissed Joe Klein off in the past.)

  • jncc

    “Greenwald himself has published private emails of mine that were part of a conversation taking place on a list-serve. In one of those emails, I say that Greenwald “cares not a whit for America’s national security.”"

    So you think that it is acceptable for you to impugn Mr. Greenwald on a list-serve (that, presumably, goes to many people) but wrong for him to call you on it?

    You, Sir, are a pathetic coward.

  • neilsagan

    Exactly, “private email” and “posted on a listserve” is a blatant and obvious contradiction.

    “As for Greenwald, he knows little about politics, less about journalism and cares not a whit about the national security of the United States. I find the Limbaugh-like, knee-jerk devotion of his flock depressing.”

    I read Glenn and I can tell you, I take exception to each and every derogatory metaphor Joe invoked about Glenn’s readers, “Limbaugh-like, knee-jerk devotion of his flock depressing.” But what I find most curious is that Joe find Glenn’s readers’ devotion depressing. I think Joe is jealous.

    Why, if Joe was having a fight with Glenn, did he find it necessary to insult Glenn’s readers?

    Joe deserves credit for admitting he was wrong about the Iraq war but he has yet to examine why he got it so wrong or why he will not get it wrong the next time.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Maybe you missed the title of this post but let me assure you that Glenn Greenwald is not at all an “anonymous blogger”. And don’t forget that Joke was a proponent of extending FISA and allowing the NSA to spy on Americans. You can admire Joke all you want, to each their own. But you have to at least have your facts and your history straight before you try to defend him.

  • http://highclearing.com/index.php/archives/2009/08/31/9830 Bona Fides § Unqualified Offerings

    [...] I state that I personally will not be happy until everything in the country – every road, building and airport, every bridge and dog park – [...]

  • edgery

    Wow, by Mr. Klein’s reasoning, I can’t help but wonder whether he has access to a dictionary. Just in case, let’s help him out: fact  [fakt] –noun: 1. something that actually exists; reality; truth; 2. something known to exist or to have happened; 3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true; 4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened

    Okay, I’ll give him the 4th definition. Because in Joe Klein’s world, I guess if he says it, “it is a fact.”

    See there, I didn’t write anything about the military or CIA or puppies. I must not support them either.

    Hint: Joe, get over yourself.

  • neilsagan

    That would good first step for two liberals in a debate, grant each other respect and grabt each other the presumption of integrity. Then battle it out on the merit,

  • rollotomas1

    Joe, if you’ve lost your credibility through shoddy journalism, probably best to own up to it, correct it and keep your mouth shut, as opposed to what you are doing. The straw-man attacks on Glenn resemble the flailings of a weakened man. If you really think Glenn does not care about national security, your logic is no different than right-wing “deathers” who talk about their political opponents’ wish to “kill Grandma.”

  • jr333

    Is this post serious? You’re really mad that somebody posted an email that you sent to a listserv?

    I don’t know what to say. If I had a 12 year old kid tell me he thought his pictures on Facebook were private b/c he said only his “friends” could view them, I’d sit him down, and patiently explain, that when you put things on the internet, they’re public. If the same 12 year old kid told me he thought his emails to a listserv were private (!), I’d think, yikes, maybe we need to have a longer chat about what the Internet is and how it works. When an adult — indeed, a Time columnist — makes that elementary a mistake, it’s really hard to know where to begin. Wow.

  • s9l4

    You have the gall to tell me that the U.S. government should be able seize, copy and datamine every last private communication that everyone in America makes, right down to the pillow talk of husbands and wives, and yet you whine about the damage done to your personal privacy by somebody quoting in public the messages you sent to an email relay server?

    Either that’s an astonishing lack of situational awareness you’re displaying, or you’ve got a sense of entitlement big enough that it should be visible to the naked eye from lunar orbit.

  • kingsbridge77

    Greenwald argues via Twitter that Joe’s emails in question were not private.

    Who to believe?

  • rollotomas1

    You first, awb75, or if that is your real name, my apologies. Why is it OK for the powerful to protect themselves by using anonymity (as news sources) and not the weak? Our country was founded in no small part through anonymous dissent.

  • http://lovable-liberal.blogspot.com/ lovable liberal

    There is no way that Joe Klein has the stamina to stay with Glenn Greenwald, much less Greenwald with the able assistance of aimai. He shouldn’t have picked a fight with someone who buys pixels by the megaton.

  • http://newtechnote.wordpress.com/ newtechnote

    Joe, your list-serve email is plum full of paper tigers: When Glenn is talking about civil liberties in the U.S. and by extension in its black sites around the world, the subject is NOT the U.S. armed services; when he is decrying the CIA torture abuses, he is NOT speaking to the need for competent intelligence services. So, if you’re going to criticize a constitutional lawyer’s opinions, speak to the issues, don’t expect us to back you because the inner tubes make you “crazy mad.” Address the real damned issues, or else people will think you’re silly, or worse, irrelevant. Be real, or pick your poison.

  • http://justiceputnam.blogspot.com/ justiceputnam

    Izzy Stone’s grand daughter is pathetic?

    I once spoke with Rilke’s grand daughter at a soiree in St Cenari France; of course, I had never denied that I was a blowhard, so our exchange went much better than Monsieur Klein’s did.

  • alfalfachaff

    Joe Klein, Greenwald rightly called you out on the Hoekstra mess. You repeated propaganda without checking it (or even understanding it), and thereby contributed to the creation of an environment where a terribly toxic law could be passed.
    .
    And when he called you out, you should have: (1) admitted error, (2) thanked him for bringing it to your attention, (3) publicly outed Hoekstra for misleading you, and (4) made a determined effort to avoid any such mistakes in the future.
    .
    But what did you do? You made mealy-mouthed excuses, harbored a grudge, and went on dancing to the same old beltway tune.
    .
    Joe? That was a test of character and professional competence. You failed.

  • stlinquirer

    First, rather than address Glenn head on, Joe angrily and repeatedly trashes Glenn at a party. He gets called on it and his ill-informed bluster and blather gets revealed for all to see by one of the participants in the conversation (whom he can neither find the cajones to actually name or link to so people can read it for themselves – you can see Amai’s original post at No More Mr. Nice Blog here: http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2009/08/no-wait-i-know-this-one-answer-to-who.html ).

    Point 1: Loudly trashing someone in the presence of many at a party hardly seems like a private communication. Point 2: You got schooled by someone you term an acolyte – generally, best not to draw the entire world’s attention to it.

    Second, on a listserve for journalists(!), Joe later trashes Glenn repeatedly (as Joe himself reveals here) in the most vile of manners on no evidence at all, calling upon all sorts of logical fallacies and then and calls his slanders facts (perhaps bordering on actionable since he’s essentially saying that its a fact that Glenn hates our troops and America in general not just his opinion -he’s certainly lucky he didn’t say this in Great Britain – just saying). Point: Revealing to the world that you can’t logically argue your way out of a paper bag probably not a great call.

    So, 1) unsatisfied for trying to trash Glenn in smaller arenas and 2) getting called out on the classlessness of it each time and then 3) getting completely schooled in the process each time (twice in the first case – one in person by Amai and one via her blog), Joe reaches for his megaphone to take his vendetta against Glenn for revealing Joe’s obsequiousness in the face of power to the masses and Joe’s utter gossipmongering and vile attempts at behind-the-scenes reputation-trashing when he found himself repeatedly bested rhetorically and journalistically by Glenn.

    This has epic fail written all over it. It’s time to start the over/under bets on his remaining tenure at Time. Before he was a blundering blowhard with access. But he’s now about to become a full-bore, beyond the blogosphere public embarrassment to the magazine. If I were Newsweek (or any other competitor in the same space), I’d be featuring items next week (and right away on institutional blogs) on the spiraling meltdown of Joe Klein.

  • stlinquirer

    I wanted to add:

    1) Note the accusation of hyperbole (without evidence) juxtaposed against the direct claim of not being hyperbolic himself. Project much, Joe?

    2) Note the immediate and repetitive slander of Glenn’s character using Time.com’s megaphone with nary a whit of evidence whilst protesting vehemently against the disparagement of his character. Joe calls Glenn dishonorable, mean-spirited, graceless, a bully, thoroughly dishonorable, and a hypocrite and accuses him of caring not a whit for America’s security and implies that he hates the troops and that he uses too many big words strung together in altogether too long of an argument to be tolerated by a noble pundit such as Joe. Ahem, project much, Joe?

    Further, Joe accuses Glenn of not having made a single concrete recommendation about how to go about. I couldn’t disagree more strongly – Glenn has consistently taken what I believe to be a generally straightforward and clear position – that our efforts at neutralize the threat of terrorism, that our clandestine services and their operation, that the safety of our troops would best be served by simply following the law as it stood prior to 2001. That’s it. Follow the law.

    Come on, Joe. It’s not rocket science here. Follow the law and use FISA for guidance on surveillance rather than illegally spying on anyone on the president’s/vice president’s (and who knows who else’s) say so. Follow the law and adhere internationally negotiated and domestically codified standard procedures for the treatment of prisoners that the US entered into to protect our brave men and women fighting for our nation. Follow the law and find, extradite, and try those responsible for crimes against the US (as with the first World Trade Center attacks) rather than sweep up any possible suspects and stow them without recourse in Cuba, torture them without remorse, and/or spirit them around the globe to the darkest hellholes of the human spirit with little regard to anything remotely resembling an attempt at determine whether they might have actually been innocent.

    Over and over again, Glenn has pointed out precisely how not following the law is screwing our clandestine services, screwing our troops, and ultimately screwing us all and made one maddeningly simple suggestion that he argues would help protect Americans, help our troops, and make the jobs of our clandestine services thousands of times easier. Just following the friggin’ law!

    Glenn isn’t graceless. He’s just persistent in the face of douchebaggery, duplicitousness and entitlement in the punditocracy. He won’t take the runaround or the evasion of “who could have known” or “who could have time to read the bill”. Neither is he malicious or a bully. He merely has the temerity to point out when someone is wrong. And if, after he’s pointed out the error(s), they doggedly persist in being wrong (or dig themselves deeper into wrongness), he doesn’t let them try to weasel their way out of their stupidity with misdirection and non-sequiturs.

    Joe alas has the bad fortune to be wrong a lot in arenas where Glenn knows a great deal and has found himself on the losing end of an argument on multiple occasions. Joe could 1) stop writing in those areas or 2) start taking his job a little more seriously and try to be right more often or, heck, even just try 3) reading Glenn’s work a little more carefully and a little more often. Instead, Joe has clearly decided to wage a campaign of slander against Glenn’s reputation throughout the overlapping circles of the east coast establishment and main stream journalism (he was hoping he could just trash Glenn outside of the public eye) and now has taken that campaign to the forum of Time. This is going to be a black eye for Time and a big blow to what is left of Joe’s career. Anyone that takes but a moment to read past Joe’s post is going to find a wealth of data that reveal that Glenn is a) doing great work that b)reveals how poor the quality of Joe’s work has been for so long.

    Joe – you are starting to seem obsessed by Glenn (finally moved on from obsessing about Eric Alterman, also on the over-privileged, under-working villager pundit beat, huh?). If you’re getting sick of having your second-rate work revealed to be second-rate, you can retire, wait until you are fired, or step up your game. Get busy living or get busy dying. Just stop whining about getting your rear end handed to you by your “lessers”.

  • birchbayh

    Joe,

    The only reason why I’ve ever read you was because you were in Time magazine. The fact that they had to run corrections based on your writing should speak for itself. You’ve been wrong on many important subjects, but what depresses me is that you don’t care that you’ve gotten it wrong:

    “”In the original version of this story, Joe Klein wrote that the House Democratic version of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) would allow a court review of individual foreign surveillance targets. Republicans believe the bill can be interpreted that way, but Democrats don’t.” Greenwald noted that the text of the legislation does not require court review of individual targets, and that Time’s response disregards this fact.[7][8] Klein’s response was, “I have neither the time nor legal background to figure out who’s right.”[9]”

    Joe Klein: not even trying to get it right.

  • http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/08/31/ya-rly-nota-bene-for-31-august-2009/ Scholars and Rogues » YA RLY: Nota Bene for 31 August 2009

    [...] Happy 70th birthday to celebrated sound shaman Paul Canyon … Joe Klein has no love for Glenn Greenwald … Rudy Garcia continues his quasi-vision quest … Sean Carroll: FU, Bloggingheads [...]

  • http://galtgonewild.com/?p=6620 Breaking News … Joe Klein’s feelings are hurt : Galt Gone Wild

    [...] Aww, poor baby (via Atrios). Share/Save Category: Journalamism [...]

  • http://powip.com/2009/09/its-on/ It’s On « POWIP

    [...] Joe Klein notices that Greenwalds are a hypocrite. [...]

  • http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2009/09/01/patriotic-haters-nancy-pelosi-glenn-greenwald-and-joe-klein/ Patriotic Haters: Nancy Pelosi, Glenn Greenwald, And Joe Klein : Stop The ACLU

    [...] about Glenn releasing private communications, so, Joe released this other communication on his Time magazine blog For the past several years, Greenwald has conducted a persistent, malicious campaign to distort who [...]

  • http://www.thepiratescove.us/2009/09/01/patriotic-haters-nancy-pelosi-glenn-greenwald-and-joe-klein/ Patriotic Haters: Nancy Pelosi, Glenn Greenwald, And Joe Klein » Pirate's Cove

    [...] about Glenn releasing private communications, so, Joe released this other communication on his Time magazine blog For the past several years, Greenwald has conducted a persistent, malicious campaign to distort who [...]

  • parink

    Poor little Joey outed on the internet.

  • http://timhallbooks.com/wordpress/?p=3937 The blinding rays of our Internet Sun will destroy you bloodsucking vampires set loose upon the earth to feast on our blood « Does This Font Make Me Look Fat?

    [...] Joe Klein Edition. [...]

  • laurencepassmore

    Not your best moment, Mr. Klein. Of what possible relevance is it whether Greenwald has praised the troops enough? Is he running for office? Will you next complain that he hasn’t kissed enough babies in public? (Could he be anti-infant?)

    There is no dearth of journalists bold enough to proclaim that our military is super-awesome. But there are few people like Greenwald who doggedly pursue questions of civil liberties, and explore them in the depth they deserve (or as you put it, “goes on and on”). Yes, his style is often acerbic. If the alternative is the inside-the-beltway chumminess that results in our tepid political discourse, so be it. I’m really disappointed by this post because it seemed you were taking some steps out of that cocoon. Now I wonder.

  • masonmcd

    As for journalism or professional inquiry, how did Klein not know or ask about Aimai’s knowledge of I.F. Stone?

    Aimai is Stone’s granddaughter.

  • timhallbooks
  • constantweader

    The comments on this post are fabulous! Too bad Joe won’t take the time to do the “research” of reading them. He’d make the uncomfortable discovery that his readers are smarter, saner & better-informed than he is. It could teach him a little humility.

    Meanwhile, the editor should take a look at what he’s doing to the magazine’s brand by pushing these petty vendettas.

    The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com

  • http://nicewhitelady.blogspot.com/ joyomama

    Thanks for the clarification; I thought you were referring to Ben Slime, the economist/game show host/actor/a$$hat

  • neilsagan

    Joe is carrying water once again for Cheney. As Wilkerson told us, less then one percent of the CIA were on board with Cheney’s torture programs, most were appalled and would love Cheney’s team be investigated, they want NO part of the depravity authored by that sociopath.

  • tomswirly

    This article is baffling.

    1. Mr. Klein yelled at some young woman at a party. How is this possibly a “private communication”?

    2. Mr. Klein posted an email to a listserv – which means it was instantly sent to some unknown number of subscribers. How is this conceivably a “private communication”?

    3. Comparing Mr. Greenwald’s supporters to Mr. Limbaugh’s is downright funny. Please note that there are a hundred or so postings before me on this topic. Note that they are logical, contain actual reasoning, facts, and are generally quite polite.

    Mr. Klein has a deplorable record of supporting and encouraging the US government’s worst excesses. He supported the Iraq war, the nuclear bombing of Iran, as well as illegal and politically motivated wiretapping by the US government. With such a consistent record of failure, it’s astonishing that Time Magazine keeps him on. They certainly haven’t gotten a penny of revenue from me in the five years, anyway.

    Mr. Klein’s massively erroneous reporting needs to be called out, and we’re lucky that we have someone systematic, logical, yet passionate like Mr. Greenwald to do so.

    If Time had any integrity or initiative, they’d fire Mr. Klein and hire Mr. Greenwald. If they did that, I’d not only subscribe, I’d buy subscriptions for my friends.

  • http://www.x10dur.net/wordpress/2009/09/01/joe-klein-glenn-greenwald-thorougly-dishonerable-for-leaking-my-off-the-record-emails/ Joe Klein: Glenn Greenwald "Thorougly Dishonerable" For Leaking My Off-The-Record Emails « My Hot Topics

    [...] then responded on his blog at Time, calling Greenwald a “thoroughly dishonorable person” for releasing [...]

  • hankgillette

    Mr. Klein,

    You are a big baby. In reading your screed, I was amazed at how immature and whiny you sounded. Time actually pays you to write dreck like this?

    You seemed to be embarrassed and humiliated because Glenn Greenwald are demonstrating what real journalism should be, and the comparison between what you do and what he does lays bare the utter emptiness of your work.

    It shows how desperate and morally bankrupt you are that you descended to a Cheneyesque attack on Greenwald’s patriotism.

  • villagebunk

    Klein,

    This is an all time even by Joe Klein standards. You are doing nothing more than further EMBARRASSING AND marginalizing yourself, Time Magazine, and the news outlets that keep providing you a perpetual platform for trolling and propaganda. Greenwald has done nothing more than demand consistency and accountability for what comes out of your mouth because what you say sadly still matters in our political discourse, in this country.

    You have deviated from your previous position- a discredited “journalist”, US government propaganda parrot, liar, spineless coward- to a DESPERATE YELLOW CARNIVAL BARKER.

    Klein, just because you have the ability to sit on infotainment sunday talk shows does not mean your name and the word “credible” can be used in the same sentence. You really would make an excellent addition at The Weekly Standard, Fox News, or even the Dick Cheney defending Washington Post.

    This has nothing to do with Greenwald and everything to do with your incompetence, dishonesty, and lack of any shred of journalistic integrity. You are an epic failure that words alone cannot describe and the sooner you realize that the sooner you may very well be back on the path of being somewhat relevant in the eyes of those that are not on your list serve or producers at “Meet The Press”. Joe Klein is a pathetic individual and most of all HE IS NOT A MAN.

  • godwhacked

    I’m sick and tired of people like Joe Klein who say they ‘SUPPORT THE TROOPS’ and then send them off to pointless wars. Those who really support our troops value our soldiers lives enough NOT to send them off to war haphazardly, or when there are other viable options to fighting. How many brave young men and women will die because journalists like Joe Klein beat the drums for needless war? How many young men and women’s lives will be saved by people like Gleen Greenwald who stand against needless bloodshed? Now who really supports our troops? Not Joe Klein.

  • http://www.neptunuslex.com/2009/09/01/when-two-dorks-collide/ When Two Dorks Collide « Neptunus Lex

    [...] Ellensberg Thomas Ryan Ellers Wilson Glenn Greenwald are having a bit of a spat. Summat to do with leaked emails and national security concerns according to Klein. Stuff and nonsense insists M. Soque [...]

  • realitybasedliberal

    Gee Klein, I thought you wrote “Primary Colors” — anonymously. Guess certain restrictions apply to those outside the special circle.

  • http://jonorato42.wordpress.com/ John O

    Boy, Joe, try to be a little more insecure about someone doing your job better than you, and without all the TV appearances to boot!

    You should have kept this one to yourself. You’re being force-fed your own lunch.

  • http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=16735 PoliBlog: A Rough Draft of my Thoughts » What Constitutes “Private Communications” in the Internet Age?

    [...] Joe Klein of Time is upset with Glenn Greenwald of Salon: Twice in the past month, my private communications have been splashed about the internet. That such a thing would happen is unfortunate, and dishonorable, but sadly inevitable, I suppose. I ignored the first case, in which a rather pathetic woman acolyte of Greenwald’s published a hyperbolic account of a conversation I had with her at a beach picnic on Cape Cod. Now, Greenwald himself has published private emails of mine that were part of a conversation taking place on a list-serve. [...]

  • jinnrikki

    In Joke’s world;
    Mean-spirited, graceless bully = anyone that points out what lousy fact free journalism I commit.

  • lupercal5

    what sgwhiteinfla said.
    .
    Furthermore, im applying for a patent on the term ‘twitter journalist’. lol

  • tompaine2

    Joe:

    Some news:

    You, like Judy Miller, are a low-level stenographer masquerading as a journalist; Greenwald, a lawyer, actually is performing some first-rate journalism!

    Why not use the opportunity to learn from a real professional?

  • chancegardener

    Mr. Klein, I was advised at least ten years ago never to put anything in an e-mail that I wouldn’t want to see printed on the first page of the New York Times. Don’t you realize that when you send an e-mail, especially to a lot of people, they can forward it to anyone they want? Haven’t you ever forwarded an e-mail to someone the original writer probably never even heard of? If I know that, then a professional “journalist” certainly should.

    Come on, you have no expectation whatsoever of confidentiality when you put anything on the “intertubes.” And Glenn Greenwald, who is ten times the journalist you are, has every right to respond when he learns that you have been bad-mouthing him in your drunken party rants as well as in meetings with your professional peers.

  • biggerbox

    Given that the nut of Greenwald’s gripe about Klein is Klein’s ability to make broad confident assertions based on little research and quite mistaken assumptions, that in this very post he attacks Greenwald for never having been positive about the military WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY admitting that he doesn’t always read Greenwald.

    No, Joe, acknowledging HERE that you might have missed it doesn’t make it OK to email such an absolutist (“During that time I have never seen”) attack to hundreds of people.

    Having read Greenwald, and you, I have to say that so far in this debate, he’s ahead on points. Perhaps you could do more to document the facts beneath your assertions, as the prolix Greenwald does frequently. It may feel like he’s a “bully”, but that’s probably because of his habit of bringing lots of facts and citations to the fight.

    This, of course, requires reading and research, and learning not to write as if you know things you don’t.

  • zeno88888

    Mr. Klein,

    Glenn Greenwald is not somebody you should trash. People who read him think he is a Master at truth-seeking. You, on the other hand, not so much.

  • gimilner

    Why would you judge Greenwald’s writing by how often he has said something “positive” about the US military? What a strange criterion, especially since that isn’t even Greenwald’s main subject matter. And what would that even mean, anyway? “Good show in Anbar Province, lads. Well done!”

    As for “I have never seen him acknowledge that the work of the clandestine service…” etc., that’s just not true. Greenwald’s point, reiterated many times, is that existing laws such as FISA are not incompatible with the “clandestine service” doing its job.

  • guerilla047

    Re: “he goes on, and on”

    Right, because who wants to read a true intellectual argument with, you know, documentation and all that tedious stuff? It’s so much more fun to read the clever, fact-free journoturds that Joe Klein s h i t s out on a daily basis.

    Here’s a clue, Joe: keep sniffing around the a-hole of the Democratic Party if you like. The rest of us have gotten tired of the stench, so don’t come crying to us every time you end up covered in excrement.

  • gimilner

    Very good point. Why didn’t I think of that?

  • fisk202

    This is awesome. So, Klein posts to his blog and his readers shred him? What a concept. It’s like performance art. Rock on Joe. Bring on da stupid, bring on da funk.

  • jokeline2

    I’m afraid I don’t understand. You admit to insulting a man both behind his back and in front of his peers but he doesn’t have the right to respond to it?

    Joe that is behavior befitting both a bully and a coward. Either stand by your criticisms of Glen and address him head on, or stand down.

    To bad mouth someone behind their back is truly despicable.

  • neilsagan

    Who remembers how the press pandered to Gov. Sanford for access when he came back from his hiking trip by promising him the most favorable treatment if only he’d talk to them, guaranteeing that he would control the message?

    Do you think that Joe Klein was any different when he wrote about FISA or the prospect of invadnig Iraq?

    Joe has yet to square his responsibilities as a citizen with his responsibilities as a career-oriented journalist. Glenn, on the hand, has it clearly worked out.

    Let’s assume Joe is a smart man. Then what is it about journalism today that requires Joe’s intellectual dishonesty to thrive?

  • dfsale

    Joe,

    Remember the last time you got in a fight with Greenwald? Something about single-sourcing a story on FISA and warrantless wiretapping with spin from Rep. Hoekstra’s office…

    Remember that? I do. And remember what you wound up saying after Greenwald started hammering you? I certainly do. You said, and I quote:“I have neither the time nor legal background to figure out who’s right.”

    As it happens, I too am a member of the media… a very small-time, lowly member … more of an appendage, really .. and yet if I were to say that to my employers, let alone commit such words to print, I would expect — and deserve — to be fired on the spot.

    No time? What do they pay you for, if not your time? No legal background? If you don’t know, ask someone who does. Isn’t that what reporters do? Small-time as I am, I count a number of attorneys among my sources, whom I can turn to for explanations of various points of law.

    In summation:

    1) as of Sept. 26, 2007, you, Joe Klein, forefeited the right to ever again be taken seriously about anything;
    2) Apparently, my 5,000-circulation, biweekly community newspaper adheres to higher professional standards than the great and powerful Time Magazine, and;
    3) You might as well put a sock in it before embarrasing yourself any further.

  • jayvee44

    Methinks Joe is a little jealous of Greenwald’s following and burgeoning influence. While Joe tends to traffic in platitutes and conventional wisdom (that’s generally not all that wise), Glenn is constantly breaking new ground. Yes, he is an absolutist, and in this age, we need absolutists. I am an absolutist, and that’s why I read Greenwald. Most everyone else, including Joe Klien, is an absolute relativist. Laws? We don’t need no steenkin’ laws! So, if Joe were to saunter off and open an auto body shop and spend the rest of his days in an Adirondak chair, Turtle Waxing his genitalia, few would care or notice. There are scores and scores of writers who say the same things Joe is saying. If Greenwald were to disappear, however, the intelligencia would suffer a gaping wound.

    As for the CIA, my pal who’s worked as a defense contractor for 25 years tells me he believes the CIA is rotten to the core, dysfunctional, morally lost, incompetent. He says the CIA should be eliminated. And this from a guy who’s given his life and career to keeping the country SAFE. This from a guy who loves working with military types, but despises the proles at the Pentagon. Who loves kibbutzing with rank-and-file CIA, but avoids the big brass like the plague. I admit I was shocked to hear it, especially from him, but there he is, outside the box. We need more people like him, like Greenwald as well. Perhaps it’s past time to start to ask whether the CIA as configured and led serves a productive “American” purpose. I’m not saying we shouldn’t have spies. We just need spies that obey our laws and, you know, hmmm, let’s see…. figure out when a network of terrorists are going to launch a major attack on us.

  • http://mediactive.com/2009/09/01/time-pundit-again-shows-spots/ Time Pundit (Again) Shows Spots « Mediactive

    [...] (Again) Shows Spots Posted by Dan Gillmor At Time magazine’s Swampland blog, Joe Klein has posted an astonishing attack on Salon’s Glenn Greenwald. He starts: Twice in the past month, my private communications [...]

  • pearlybaker

    “With such a consistent record of failure, it’s astonishing that Time Magazine keeps him on. ”

    Billy Kristol is still employed by TIME, isn’t he? That was the last straw for me to cancel my subscription.

  • epitone

    Joe, stop trying to play this game. It’s pointless. Why are you wasting your time?

    Glenn just isn’t operating on the same level as you. All he’s got is intelligence and integrity, and a lot of smart and well-informed people that listen to him.

    But you… why, you’re famous! You’ve moved past those petty pursuits. You’re a Beltway fixture. You had a novel published. Let go of the silliness. You know what your goals are, and none of them have to do with the truth or real journalism or being respected by intellectuals.

  • muslimoutrage

    This is Glenn Greenwald’s finest hour, and Joe Klein, he couldn’t have done it without you giving him the opportunity. Sure, you tried to trick everyone during the campaign by acting like a pragmatic, progressive, sensible journalist. But time has revealed that you haven’t changed at all, you just followed the winds of whoever was in power and Greenwald has finally exposed you. You’re still the same guy who sat on Meet the Press in ’03 and argued vociferously for invading Iraq. And if Obama or the Dems were pro-war and pro-invasion, by God you’d be saying the same stuff still.

    I’m glad everyone else has learned that you’re still THAT GUY.

    Thanks for all you do!

  • dlfmichigan

    Saying Joe Klein should get out of journalism is like saying penguins should get out of the Sahara.

  • reillydiefenbach

    Another overpaid cocktail party circuit pundit bites the dust. Walmart has clues on sale now, Joe. Get one.

  • neilsagan

    Joe’s thoughts in a conversation about the meaning of polls on health care in Cooper’s district

    “You actually believe polls about issues? On what basis? You think the public actually wants a public option…maybe what they really don’t want is a government takeover of health care. Or maybe both. Or maybe—no, this is actually the truth: they don’t know what the F-BOMB they want. Maybe—no, again, the truth: they don’t have the time or interest to figure what any of this means. And they are one good negative 20-second spot away from being demagogued up the wazoo on this issue when the actual election begins.”

    Joe thinks his job is to be a proxy for the politicians, not a journalist for the people.

    Joe is suffering from severe savvy focus – will it work? – that has progressed into transference. He now self-identifies as an elected official.

  • estimarpet

    Glenn Greenwald is one of the most articulate, intelligent and important bloggers/columnists writing today. His relentless and consistent criticism of how and when we apply or not apply the law and the hypocrisy of our elected officials is invaluable.

    If there is animosity between you, it should no be carried on Swampland. I demeans you and your contribution to what is often very good commentary. Please stop!

  • neilsagan

    “no, again, the truth: they don’t have the time or interest to figure what any of this means.”

    Joe is talking about the people in Jim Cooper’s district. That’s a pretty cynical attitude about polls results on an arguably important issues. Isn;t health care some massive portion of our economy and isn;t it’s cost structures out of control. I give the American people much more credit for understanding what this means than Joe does.

    Remember what Joe said about the FISA legislation? that he didn;t have the time to read it or understand it? So he asked one source, wrote it down and published it.

  • joejoe2000

    Time should fire you and replace you with Glenn Greenwald. I enjoy reading proffesional fact based journalism.

    BTW-
    The rule of law and national security are not mutually exclusive.

  • http://eganfoote.wordpress.com foote

    Joe – Do you realize when you make comments like “I have never seen him write a positive sentence about the US military” you are no better than Dick Cheney and the Bush Administration you so often (at least recently) criticized for the same thing?

    Greenwald raised some very good points, and your response was essentially to use a tactic so vile and intellectually dishonest that you have lost all credibility with me.

  • pkropotkin

    Well, well, well…having read the offending screed, Klein certainly seems to hold a decidedly dismissive attitude toward Greenwald and “the public.” His attack on Greenwald strikes me as a proverbial case of “the pot calling the kettle black” in a non-figurative sense, and where “the kettle” isn’t black. Greenwald’s post at Salon today seems to catch the flavor of Klein’s Journolist rant quite nicely, I think. With a couple of hundred “journalists” involved, what made Klein think his attack wouldn’t be exposed? What makes Klein think other indiscreet remarks have not been shared with those who do not belong to this elite fraternity?

  • pma1

    E-mails being forwarded to hundreds of insider, mainstream journalists which contain vicious, petty, and stupid ad hominem should not be considered private. Considering the fact that Mr. Greenwald would otherwise have had no forum or recourse to defend himself to dispute the ad hominem, Greenwald’s blog posts and twitters were completely justified. Perhaps in the future you could engage in rational, substantive discourse?

    As far as Joe Klein is concerned, his disdain for the polity, democracy, and civil and human rights is blatant and extreme. Let’s consider this particular quote from Mr. Klein’s “personal” e-mail:

    “You actually believe polls about issues? On what basis? You think the public actually wants a public option…maybe what they really don’t want is a government takeover of health care. Or maybe both. Or maybe—no, this is actually the truth: they don’t know what the @#$! they want. Maybe—no, again, the truth: they don’t have the time or interest to figure what any of this means. And they are one good negative 20-second spot away from being demagogued up the wazoo on this issue when the actual election begins.” -Joe Klein

    Additionally, for a person to write Primary Colors to claim he knows anything about honor or consistency is the height of hypocrisy.

    Suffice it to say I will never purchase another copy of Time, nor will I consider any news outlet that employs someone like Klein who is so blatantly and disrepsectfully hostile toward democracy and the polity to be a reliable or viable source of information.

  • delruel

    This from the guy who didn’t have the guts to publish Primary Colors under his own name?

  • toddandincharge

    Joe, your “evidence” that Greenwald does not care about the nation’s security is laughably weak, as you surely knew when you wrote it.

    He’s done substantial analysis and research and is highly credible, whether I agree with him or not.

    The last part about his “flock” is fact-free too. Ask Glenn what kind of emails he gets when he criticizes Obama.

  • gimilner

    When I first read this, I thought Greenwald had published some correspondence he had with Klein. I’m flabbergasted (really–I’m gasted with flabber) to discover that he’s talking about messages sent to a listserve. With 200 subscribers! That’s just absurd. Try to identify the leaker if you want, admonish or banish him or her, whatever. But why should Greenwald be held to a secrecy rule for a club to which he doesn’t belong? Especially when this club is made up of peers and colleagues. Really, Klein’s complaint makes no sense at all.

  • wadcity

    Wait, what? Face it – you wrote some nasty crap about someone you don’t like and you got called on it. And for a journalist to whine about anonymous leaks, pretty much the cornerstone of modern political journalism, is the pinnacle of hypocritical hilarity.

    At least Greenwald does his sniping, fair or otherwise, out in public, not in little secretive clubs.

    Greenwald has a black and white worldview that I find a bit too simplistic at times. So what? That doesn’t mean he doesn’t care “one whit” about our national security, or that he has any duty to you to play by your rules. I don’t always agree with him, but he is consistent and articulate and clearly knowledgeable. If he wasn’t, his attacks on you and others wouldn’t stick.

    And, frankly, he brings a far more important perspective to most issues than you do, that from outside the conventional Beltway wisdom. If he disappeared, our national political discussions would look very different. If you disappeared, nothing would change.

    But more than any of that, I truly resent your implication that if I read Greenwald I’m some sort of religious zealot or cultlike follower. So now you not only attack him, but his readers? Screw you. I can read Greenwald, I can read you, and I can read Ross Douthat. So what? I regularly find Greenwald’s readers to be highly informed and of sound mind and body

    You might have won this little battle by taking the high road, but this little bit here is just sorry and pathetic. I stopped taking you seriously long ago, but somehow this little escapade diminishes you even further. And it diminishes Time.

  • villagebunk

    Real journalist Dan Gillmor’s on why Klein needs to apologize to Greenwald or risk serious a serious credibility crisis

    http://mediactive.com/2009/09/01/time-pundit-privacy/

    Oh yeah, and the “woman acolyte” has some interesting take on Klein’s own disdain for his readers http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/

  • doriancito

    What kind of journalism is this, Joe?

    First you say:

    “During that time, I have never seen him write a positive sentence about the US military…I have never seen him acknowledge that the work of the clandestine service… Nor have I seen [him] acknowledge that such a threat exists, nor make a single positive suggestion about how to confront that threat in ways that might conform to his views”

    Then you cop out:

    “… it’s possible that I missed extensive posts in which he praises the Armed Forces or makes positive suggestions about how to track possible communications between terrorists abroad and their confederates here. But I sort of doubt that.”

    If you were a true journalist, Joe, you would do your research first, before making such accusations and then adding such CYA caveats…just in case.

  • burningfeet

    Joe? Joe! Are you crying? Joe! Stop crying, Joe. You shouldn’t be playing with the big kids, Joe. Glenn is a big boy. You are not. This is what happens when you play where you don’t belong.

    Stop whining, too.

  • heymoheylarry

    Oh, gosh darn, Joe, you’re right. The guy probably hasn’t said the pledge of allegiance this mornin’ either. Must be one of them damn commie hippies. Called that one all right, Joe.

  • octopusdropkick

    JOE KLEIN IS A POLITICAL HACK ON THE LEVEL OF TUCKER CARLSON. FIRE HIM!

    FIRE JOE KLEIN!

    HE’S A TERRIBLE JOURNALIST WHOSE ONLY CREDENTIALS ARISE FROM HIS ABILITY TO SMOOZE WITH POSSIBLE EMPLOYEEMENT.

    HE HAS NO MERIT AND IS A MEDICORE JOURNALIST.

  • http://www.pineviewfarm.net/weblog/?p=11043 From Pine View Farm » Swamp Gas

    [...] I wouldn’t pay attention to something like an internecine blog war between a reporter and a Constitutional-lawyer-turned-blogger, but comment number 26 is an absolute hoot.   [...]

  • Tom in The Swamp

    Joe still doesn’t understand the Streisand Effect.

    This post just reinforces everything that Greenwald has been saying about him, and that we all knew already, anyway.
    .
    Joe Kline is a vain, petty, supercilious fool personally, and a superficial, credulous and lazy.stenographer of a reporter professionally.
    .
    The more Joe strikes out blindly against those who reveal his faults, the more he will demonstrate them for all to see.
    .
    Joe, if you will just go about doing your job of journalism thoroughly and thoughtfully for a change, and ignore the criticism, you will find the criticism fading away, as the reason to criticize fades away.

  • http://seesdifferent.wordpress.com/ seesdifferent

    Mr. Klein:
    Mr. Greenwald did not invade your privacy, record your conversations, wiretap you, or hack into your emails. He published things that were sent/given/told to him, by persons to whom you told/sent/gave them.
    Mr. Greenwald has always held that the FISA court was an important and legitimate means of obtaining needed access to communications/information/intelligence.
    Your post is seriously off-kilter; as in Urban Dictionary:
    “off-kilter: the state of being weird. often the result of staying up extremely late. activities include: watching educational programming, smoking many cigarettes, and having random dance parties.”
    ….and, writing posts like your “Glenn Greenwald.”

  • primarycolorsanonymous

    Oh, this is rich. Author “Anonymous” deplores others journalistic integrity. Go to H, Joe.

  • maplawtech

    Mr. Klein, in a desperate attempt to remain relevant, is picking a fight with a real journalist. There is no doubt in my mind that Joe intended for word of these “private” conversations to get back to Mr. Greenwald.

    So the question becomes: Why? Why is Joe Klein, washed-up hack, shouting from the rooftops that he hates Mr. Greenwald?

    The answer is obvious: this is all an attempt to curry favor with someone (or someones) Glenn has recently pissed off. Joe is just trying the “enemy of my enemy” foot-in-the-door trick to get access to someone who hates Glenn Greenwald.

    Well, Joe, given the fantastically progressive, intelligent, and pro-American focus of Mr. Greenwald’s blog, I’d like to ask you:
    What treasonous, slimebag of corporate-whoredom are you trying to cozy up to?

    Did you run out of frequent-fluffer miles on your CheneyExpress card?

  • rochrist

    Careful Joe, your crazy is showing. Again.

    It must be difficult, being so ….little.

  • http://seesdifferent.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/joe-klein-seriously-off-kilter/ Joe Klein, seriously off-kilter « Over the line, Smokey!

    [...] Klein, seriously off-kilter Jump to Comments from threetoone.orgJoe Klein has been staying up too late and/or suffering from a chemical imbalance of some sort. My response: [...]

  • connortmcdonald

    Mr. Klein,

    You are so inside that you are blind to your own hypocrisy. You accuse Mr. Greenwald for not caring “one whit about the national security of the United States.” Nice channeling of Vice President Cheney. Whether you agree or disagree with his opinions, you don’t have to be a “religious reader” to know the Mr. Greenwald has great concern for the national security of the United States. As it is clear you do to.

    But alas, you think it is o.k. to slander a fellow journalist “privately” to hundreds of colleagues. You were called out for your nasty diatribe against Glenn Greenwald. Deal with it. It is you, sir, who are the “dishonorable person…and stone hypocrite.”

    Connor T. McDonald

  • rfkactionfront

    Shorter Joe Klein: “you’re either with me or you’re with the terrorists.”

    Wow. To see Joe Klein vomit back up the most despicable refrain from the last 8 years in defense of his own fragile ego is just sickening.

  • http://www.politicalbyline.com/2009/09/01/on-glenn-greenwald-and-joe-klein/ On Glenn Greenwald and Joe Klein | Political Byline

    [...] Greenwald and Joe Klein By Patrick, on September 1st, 2009 I noticed that Glenn Greenwald and Joe Klein are trading barbs in the Blogosphere [...]

  • rlbtzero

    I’ll take Greenwald and Aimai over Klein and Time magazine anyday of the week.

  • http://newsfu.com/2009/09/01/midday-open-thread-338/ Midday open thread | News Fu

    [...] as an unchallenged arbiter of “acceptable” progressive discussion, appears to be losing his mind at the notion that anyone would challenge him. Glenn is right in calling it a “obviously [...]

  • http://www.bloggersforchange.com/?p=18812 Midday open thread | Bloggers For Change

    [...] Party Circuit as an unchallenged arbiter of "acceptable" progressive discussion, appears to be losing his mind at the notion that anyone would challenge him. Glenn is right in calling it a "obviously disturbed, [...]

  • fromlaurelstreet

    So, let me understand …

    Joke Line is upset because someone who he admits he doesn’t follow closely MIGHT not be sufficiently boo-yah when it comes to the military?

    And this has what to do with people pointing and laughing at said Joke Line?

    Gosh, it’s good to know that anything I can consider anything I post to a List-Serve is private. Funny that, I would have considered it to be public.

    With thinking — and writing like Klein’s (“I sort of doubt that” — I mean, wtf? Tell us, Joke Line, do you or don’t you? Inquiring minds wanna know! Well, not really …) it’s clear that “The Swampland” is aptly named.

  • pointybongo

    Listserve comments private? How ridiculous.
    The reason Glenn Greenwald is critical of you, Joe, is that you’re a sycophant and stenographer for the ruling class, one who is now in the midst of a VERY PUBLIC smear campaign (masquerading as “private communications”) against one of the English-speaking world’s most incisive and incorruptible journalists & commentators.
    Your temper-tantrums reveal nothing about Greenwald and everything about yourself: a self-indulgent, self-important toady for the rich and powerful. You simply can’t handle it when someone calls you out on your spewing of endless streams of BS.

  • presumptuousinsect

    The Little Rascals have nothing on you, Joe:

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/diannaruggles/msmclubhouse.jpg

  • drjimmy72296

    More than 130 posts so far and only one that I saw kind of, sort of defending Klein in the comments section of HIS blog. That’s pretty amazing.

  • mentsmin

    I, on occasion, appreciate the writings of both Klein and Greenwald. However—the suggestion that someone outside of a “private” list-serve is somehow morally or ethically obligated to refrain from publishing messages that appear on that list-serve is almost too laughable to warrant any discussion whatsoever. This is certainly true when the messages involve personal attacks on another person. No stranger you gossip with at a picnic owes you any sort of confidentiality, any more than one who comes into possession of similarly-catty material that you’ve distributed to dozens of peers online.

    One could certainly understand how Klein might view this as unfavorable, but devoting space on a blog–at TIME, no less–to complain about getting your feelings hurt on the Internet? The best suggestion would probably be to move on, at this point.

  • mitzygalore

    Joe, you need to step off. GG’s depth of thinking on critical issues that affect this country is profound and useful, especially when confronting stale beltway journalists like yourself. You need to go slap the back of some of your boys at the Pentagon. Journalists and thinkers like GG are transforming your profession. Bye-Bye Birdy…..

  • al75

    I’m not interested in the personal aspect of this dispute. The fundamental aspect of Greenwald’s critique appear legitimate: America went to war on demonstrably falsified evidence, and the “village” journalists of DC cheered – with the rare exceptions of McClatchy, Moyers, and a few others, who were denounced as America-haters.

    Mr. Klein’s primary argument above appears to be to denounce Greenwald as a troop-hater, or a person who doesn’t care about America’s security.

    This is the standard Bush/Cheney smear. Anyone who has been paying attention is painfully aware that America’s security and standing in the world have been savaged by this kind of ill-considered nonesense.

  • msdrummond

    sir,

    you say:

    greenwald … cares not a whit about the national security of the United States. I find the Limbaugh-like, knee-jerk devotion of his flock depressing.

    add this to your other words:

    During that time, I have never seen him write a positive sentence about the US military … I have never seen him acknowledge that the work of the clandestine service … is an absolute necessity … Nor have I seen [him] acknowledge that such a threat exists … I have seen no evidence that he cares one whit about the national security of the United States.

    sir: you have taken refuge in nationalism! and you’re not even running for office.

  • http://brownbourne.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/meta/ Meta(?[!{$}]) « The Progressive Internal Critique

    [...] Joe Klein has been undermining Salon’s Glenn Greenwald in “private” Journolist emails as an extremist, and a [...]

  • http://www.b12partners.net/wp/2009/09/01/reading-around-on-august-31st-through-september-1st/ Reading Around on August 31st through September 1st | B12 Solipsism

    [...] Glenn Greenwald – Swampland – TIME.com – Can't decide if my favorite part of this laughable Joke Line aka Joe Klein article is the article itself, the comments ripping Klein to shreds, or the thoughtful response Glenn Greenwald made on his Salon.com blog. Or all of the above. Klein should be so embarrassed as to resign and become an upstate bee keeper. [...]

  • http://troglopundit.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/glenn-greenwald-and-joe-klein-are-having-some-sort-of-public-spat-over-emails-or-something/ Glenn Greenwald and Joe Klein are having some sort of public spat over emails. Or something. « The TrogloPundit

    [...] see…here’s Klein’s thing. And Greenwald responds…whoa, Greenwald calls Klein a “Cheneyite.” [...]

  • kafkamichael

    I find it frustrating to know I’m rewarding Klein for his miserably awful “journalism” by contributing to his page hits. But, I can’t help myself. As amateurish and poorly reasoned as his writings tend to be, they inspire some rather brilliant commentary in rebuttal. Foremost among these is Glenn Greenwald, but he has plenty of company among the rank-and-file of Klein’s readership. I especially liked this one:

    ‘It’s also rather chilling that “praising the military” is a prerequisite to being taken seriously.’

  • bibmomma

    Joe and TIME,
    You have wasted my time, my interest in true political discourse, and most of all your self respect. You are overdue for a refresher course in journalistic integrity and ethics. If you choose to continue to write instead of “moving to Upstate New York”, you should spend time reviewing the basic responsibilities of a “journalist”. Put your pettiness and childish ways aside and do your job.

  • g2-3d181b9be8ad822c4eea987761d7a3ef

    @139 – Great comment. Sadly, though, Joke won’t take the hint. If he had a shred of self-awareness or self-respect, he’d take your advice. Problem is, if he had either, he’d not have been capable of such a stupendously embarassing post to begin with.

  • gavbrown01

    Joe Klein, you are a poor journalist. I’ve read Greenwald’s posts and you have no defense. Get out of the kitchen, you clearly cannot stand the temperature in your immediate vicinity.

  • jeanneblue

    This kind of crap is hurting journalism and is hurting our country. Nobody cares that your feelings are hurt. The problem is that you need to do a better job. Not that a couple of bloggers called you out.

    STOP covering the horse race. START covering the issues. Or let somebody else take over for you.

  • pmorlan1

    So… you’re upset because Greenwald found out about, and publicized, the rude things you were saying behind his back?

    That’s pretty petty of you, Joe.

    darius3
    August 31, 2009
    at 2:53 pm

    My thoughts exactly Darius 3.

    Instead of just making a fool of himself in front of 100 or so journalists, with this column, Klein has now made a fool of himself in front of the rest of us, as well. Mr. Greenwald has more integrity in his little pinkie than Klein has in his whole body. We all know that, even the Greenwald haters. What a pity for Klein that he is so clueless about it.

  • http://www.drasties.com/?p=8832 Drasties – Dutch on the World – World on the Dutch

    [...] ambivalent about whether even to acknowledge this obviously disturbed, Cheneyite rant from Joe Klein. On the one hand, I don’t want to be dragged down into what is, for him, quite clearly a [...]

  • deathcheney

    Except for dentist office reading, I stopped reading Time Magazine many years ago, and then it is only the letters to the editor that is even marginally interesting. Time Magazine is simply untrustworthy. But I love to come over to Swampland and see Joe Klein get intellectually skinned and gutted by stupendously superior thinkers and writers. He really is wanker- par- excellent!

  • http://www.drasties.com/?p=8833 Drasties – Dutch on the World – World on the Dutch

    [...] Posted by Joe Klein; 172 Comments [...]

  • http://jonorato42.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/a-sequence-which-requires-a-cigarette/ A Sequence Which Requires A Cigarette « Beware The Man

    [...] Joe, on Swampland today. [...]

  • rojax

    Joe,

    Talk about dishonorable– you use your blog to settle scores with other bloggers and slime them and their friends? This is adult behavior? Unfortunately it is in America 2009. Grow up Joe– act like a journalist. You should take a moment and consider why almost all of the comments are drilling you.

    And please explain this sentence: “Therefore, I have seen no evidence that he cares one whit about the national security of the United States. It is not hyperbole, it is a fact.” What is the FACT? That you have seen no evidence? Did you actually say that out loud? Geez is this all it takes to be a blogger at Time magazine? Because if so, I could use a job.

    He doesn’t care about the security of the USA? Are you joking? That’s ALL he writes about, you nitwit. So your barometer for whether a journo cares about US security is how many positive pieces he/she has written about the military. Once again– are you serious? What’s your other qualification– how many flag pins he wears?

    Thoroughly cheap and petty, Joe Klein. Well, I guess they don’t call it Swampland for nothing.

    Regards,

    RJ

  • http://www.therudenews.com/archives/5495 Girlfight: Joe Klein vs Glenn Greenwald | The Rude News

    [...] cries foul about some emails being divulged. Welcome to Sarah’s world [...]

  • rojax

    Dear Time Editors,

    Are you reading the comments to this post? Do you understand how sick and tired we are of tedious pathetic nonsense like this post? Do you not comprehend that our country is in a bad place at the moment and what we clearly need is some rational and intelligent discourse on the way out of this mess. Is that what you offer us? No, you give us reality TV style ad hominem attacks and petty grievances. You talk about caring for the security of this country, yet you offer up pure tripe.

    Time and Joe Klein should both be deeply ashamed. Grow up.

  • pflatley

    @JokeLine_Time on Twitter. lol – totally hilarious (and sadly accurate).

  • pmorlan1

    “But he is a thoroughly dishonorable person–as he proved by releasing my private emails…”

    Oh I get it. Joe Klein, who attacked Greenwald behind his back, where he couldn’t even defend himself, is now somehow the aggrieved party in all of this? And Greenwald, who was being smeared by Klein is somehow the dishonorable one for printing documents leaked to him (like reporters routinely do) that exposed Klein’s snake-like behavior? PLEASE. What kind of fools do you take us for, Mr. Klein? My advice to you is to stop digging so you can get out of the giant, self-created hole you now find yourself in.

  • http://jonorato42.wordpress.com/ John O

    My favorite thing about this whole laugher is that it will go down in the history books as one of the seminal moments in responsible journalism, and it wasn’t Joe’s.

    Should we ever revert to that time.

    If Joe looks hard enough (it’s in the record!) he’ll find that I’ve been rather supportive and encouraging to him about his entry into the not-always-so-polite blogosphere, and that my sense was that he had learned some lessons from y’all, and applied a few of them.

    Nobody bats 1.000. My bad.

    Dear Joe:

    Admit that you have been wrong about all this. We’ll respect you for it, even if your agent won’t.

  • rojax

    One last comment– after reading Mr. Klein’s post again (and reading Greenwald’s rebuttal) and reading through all of the comments, I have come to the conclusion that Mr. Klein should resign from his position.

    Seriously. This is a farce and a dangerous one. What we have is a “journalist” for an extremely powerful media outlet attacking another journalist for being a troop-hater. Let’s get down to brass tacks Mr. Klein– you are calling Mr. Greenwald Un-American. A journalist for Time magazine is saying that journalists who don’t write positive articles about the American military are unpatriotic and and don’t care about our national security. You said that Mr. Klein. You said it was a fact. Shall we call a committee and root out these dangerous subversives? Perhaps you could lead it Mr. Klein.

    Frankly, this is the most disturbing Time magazine post I’ve ever read.

  • bigtex71

    LOL, “private emails.” It’s like Joke Line has been asleep for the last 15 years or so.

    Come to think of it, that would explain a lot…

  • http://bdhilling.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/world-extreme-blogfighting/ World Extreme Blogfighting « B.D.’s Last Refuge

    [...] energy telling us how offensive it is; Klein diminishes himself enough on his own. Like with his Swampland tantrum: Twice in the past month, my private communications have been splashed about the internet. [...]

  • http://jonorato42.wordpress.com/ John O

    LOL. “Resign.”

    Sorry, resigning would require a sense of decency.

  • jmw25

    He clearly doesn’t know what an anaphor is.

  • http://jonorato42.wordpress.com/ John O

    Also, sorry, Joe. It wasn’t fair to say you had no sense of decency. Nor that you should resign from being a well-paid shill. If someone paid me handsomely to be a shill, I’d probably take it, and go home and think about killing myself every night.

    Admitting you were wrong about this whole blogsplosion of “Whoa, Joe!” would be a good place to start, though. Just a suggestion.

  • http://jonorato42.wordpress.com/ John O

    Joe? Joey, honey?

    I think you really should just try to deal with the fact that Glenn is a better journalist than you are. I know, I know, Joey, you have all the star-power and all, but that is not a measure of skill. Not in the real world, anyway.

    It’s OK, Joey. You’re still at the top of your game, and you’ll die there, so worry not. Glenn is just a filthy blogger, and there is nobody on the planet that can write, document, and make the case like you do, Joey.

    You’re a liberal icon.

  • adrianlong

    A bloo bloo bloo the mean man on the internet hurt my feelings.

  • http://jonorato42.wordpress.com/ John O

    Joe, I implore you to hang in there. You can be the Cokie Roberts of your time. On TV all the time, and never forgetting to remind people that the Democrats do it, too.

    Godspeed, Joey.

  • sigtuna

    As Greenwald said: “…the very idea that someone has the right to attack and insult someone who isn’t present in front of hundreds of people — and then demand that the entire world, including the target of the attacks, honor that discussion as secret and private, that the target has no right to publicize it or respond — is ludicrous beyond words.”

    Give it up Joke. It’s time for you to retire.

  • iadmitiamcrazy

    jmw, I also don’t know what “anaphor” means. I looked up the definition: “anaphor – a word (such as a pronoun) used to avoid repetition; the referent of an anaphor is determined by its antecedent”. I admit I am dimwitted but I don’t get what you mean.
    Or could it be that you meant “anaphora” as in “anaphora – repetition of a word or phrase at the beginning of successive clauses”?
    Which is it?
    Anyway, thanks for the (un-)intended lesson.

  • Luke Maurer

    What’s he supposed to do, pretend to agree with someone? Please.

    (And since he’s started doing interviews with people he’s disagreeing with, you can always listen to those. He’s quite civil in those, even as he makes his point.)

  • billbrock1958

    Agree with rojax. Mr. Klein’s resignation would be appropriate.

    The phrase “Have you no shame?” comes to mind.

  • billbrock1958

    Should have been “Have you no sense of decency, sir?” (My misquotation appears to be a common one…)

  • Luke Maurer

    The best part? The progressives and the right-wing trolls are in agreement!! Sure, we hate him for different reasons, but for this brief, shining moment, the Kossacks and the Freepers have come together around one common ideal: We really hate Joe Klein.

  • Frankly, my dear, …

    Yes, a disgusting post. But the thing that I find most disgusting about it is that Klein writes “ad nauseum” and even puts it in italics as if he thinks it is Latin. Doubtless this is something else that Joe doesn’t have the time or qualifications to understand.

    Dear Joe:

    The Latin word for ‘nausea’ is — surprise, surprise — nausea. The accusative singular is nauseam, hence ad nauseam “to the point of nausea/disgust/revulsion.” That’s not hyperbole, it’s just a fact.

    This clue is provided free of charge since you don’t seem to be able to buy one.

    Sincerely,

    The World

  • theotherjimmyolson

    Once again the inestimable “glennzilla” eats Joe Klein for lunch. Please Joe step away from that hole, put down that shovel, and stop being a windsock.A windsock. I love it I wish I had thought of it.

  • theotherjimmyolson

    By the way, I want to express my admiration and awe of the breadth of knowledge of many of the commenters here.I am retired and spend an outrageous amount of time on the intertoobz, yet I could never hope to keep up. thanx.

  • http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/archives/12325-Bruces-Two-Bits.html Maggie’s Farm

    Bruce’s Two-Bits…

    From a letter in San Diego Union-Tribune:

    After following the Chula Vista Little Leaguers, I have concluded that the pros should be watching them and following their example.  All the youngsters are involved in community service.  There ar…

  • nwwoods

    Anyone who has not read Aimai’s post really should. It’s a treasure.

    http://delong.typepad.com/egregious_moderation/2009/08/aimai-on-joe-klein.html

    BTW: Greenwald: 1
    Klein: none

  • toddandincharge

    I liked it better when Klein would go on a thin-skinned rant against atrios or Alterman.

    Greenwald’s rebuttal is so complete there is little room left for humor.

    Maybe Joe can regale us again with how he chased after Alterman shrieking “but I like Springsteen, I really do!”

  • connecticutman1

    A pie fight between an incompetent poseur and a real journalist… I wonder what the real journalist will have to say in response to Klein?

  • pma1

    Initially, I too was amused by the faulty logic of the post as it relates to hypocrisy and privacy, obviously written after Klein had been flummoxed and deranged by Mr. Greenwald’s exhaustive and unrelenting facts and argumentation.

    Now I fully appreciate what Joe Klein has done here. This was nothing short of a McCarhtyite tactic to ruin someone’s life. When Joe Klein attacked Mr. Greenwald’s patriotism and assumed he lacked any concern for the security of America, he was leveling a charge of sedition, trying to smear Mr. Greenwald with the label of traitor. That this was done by a journalist, one who is charged with holding power accountable, toward a fellow journalist, while cheerleading for torture and violations of human and civil rights, is so disturbing, so despicable, that it borders on the criminal, leaving aside the fact that it fails to meet any standard of journalistic integrity or competence. I understand why a transnational like CNN/Time/Warner would keep this man in their employ as Mr. Klein is useful for their propaganda functions, but why on earth wouldn’t they hire someone with a greater cognitive capacity to achieve these ends?

    Joe Klein should immediately be fired or resign, and you can rest assured that I and thousands of others will never be “consuming” news from any media outlets associated with CNN/Time/Warner.

  • hleaf

    He’s supposed to make even a cursory attempt to understand them. Or, heavens to betsy, accept them as good faith disagreements, rather than some grotesque malformation in that person’s moral character. But forget that, I’m just a fetid, rotting corporate whore.

  • ladywolf55

    Genius!

  • ladywolf55

    That said it all. For many of us. Thanks

  • thepoliticalcat

    Good heavens above, Mr. Klein — are you serious? A blog post about how someone else is MEAN to you? As a reporter, I was taught early on that nobody is interested in *you* personally – they buy the paper to read your reportage. As a blogger, I know nobody’s interested in my shenanigans. They’re visiting to see if there’s anything interesting I have to say about what’s happening in the world around them.

    Perhaps you should get a job as a child-minder. I understand you’re much less likely to encounter critics and disparagers in that line of work.

    Disclosure: I read Glenn Greenwald’s blog, although not religiously. I don’t agree with everything he says but I find his research and fact-based approach impeccable. I don’t read Swampland very often, and if it’s going to be filled with whingeing of this ilk, I doubt I will again.

  • thepoliticalcat

    If by “treasure” you mean a fine description of Klein’s pouty preadolescent hysteria, yes.

  • civilrightsabsolutist

    Time would be a much better magazine if it employed a journalist of Glenn Greenwald’s caliber.

    And I suspect Joe Klein knows it.

  • http://galiberal.com/?p=2677 LEAVE JOE KLEIN ALOOOOOONEEEE! : Georgia Liberal

    [...] Klein over at Time’s blog in a post titled “Glenn Greenwald” has an angry rant about how Greenwald supposedly departed with journalistic ethics by publishing part of an e-mail [...]

  • http://terrychay.com/blog tychay

    Well one could argue that the Conventional Wisdown sided with intervention in Vietnam and the experience of Vietnam should have informed the trumped up (and trumpeting) of the Iraq War.

    Or one could argue that, by my math, there had been less than 401 American deaths (the number includes deaths during the Eisenhower administration as well as Johnson before escalation) in Vietnam under JFK, not 50,000 by your math. Most of the deaths occurred during his successor’s escalation (35,751). The remainder (20,863) occurred during Nixon’s.

    Last I checked, Nixon and Eisenhower were Republicans. Since both parties own the Vietnam War, because that war was part of a larger Cold War, it is not as easy to second guess the decision, even though, with hindsight, it clearly was a wrong one.

    I find it also a tad ironic that you choose to be so sensitive to the 50,000 american deaths (in Vietnam) and the 4,000 in Iraq without even a nod to the (over) 3 million Vietnamese deaths and 1.1 million (and counting) Iraqi deaths.

    I guess our lives are worth more and f–k the rest, huh?

  • http://terrychay.com/blog tychay

    You also missed the part where the e-mail was not private. It was posted to hundreds of fellow journalists (or JOURNO-LISTs) on a mailing list server and contained malicious slander of its subject, who subsequently posted its content.

  • nessus38

    “Hyperbolus {was ostracized from Athens} not because anyone feared his power or influence, but because he was a useless wretch and a disgrace to the city”

    -Thucydides 8:73

  • enhancedperception

    It must be tough, Joe. You won some award in recent years for being a Good Journalist or something. Don’t awards confer credibility? To some, perhaps. But for those of us who pay attention, credibility is not derived from fancy awards, or lofty titles, or years of “experience.” Credibility goes to those who demonstrably prioritize the truth ahead of ego and advancement.

    For the love of God, just say you were wrong and move on. People who regularly tell the truth are prepared to admit that they were wrong or misleading because they are eager to quarantine such statements from the rest of their body of work. Unfortunately, neither Joe Klein nor Time could survive such honesty.

  • http://www.drasties.com/?p=8942 Drasties – Dutch on the World – World on the Dutch

    [...] we cannot Stay Safe and simultaneously have a government that abides by the law [in his McCarthyite screed recently accusing me of “indifference” to American national security, Joe Klein wrote [...]

  • http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/09/15/kma-nb-4-140909/ Scholars and Rogues » KMA: NB 4 14/09/09

    [...] false;} Short. Sweet. Enjoy! … Moonstone … Great White North … “FU, Joe Klein” … Fap, zap, yap … Especially in Spielberg’s hands … Hope, embodied [...]

  • http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/31/joke-line-just-called-if-stones-grand-daughter-pathetic/ Emptywheel » Joke Line Just Called IF Stone’s Grand-Daughter “Pathetic”

    [...] go read the whole thing. It’s required reading for understanding how Joke Line came to call IF Stone’s grand-daughter (the author of the post) [...]

  • http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/bowe-bergdahl-and-joke-line/ Emptywheel » Bowe Bergdahl and Joke Line

    [...] Line, in his screed against Glenn Greenwald, argued that Glenn cares not a whit for national security. During that [...]

  • http://cfelectro.com/real/2009/08/joke-line-just-called-if-stone%e2%80%99s-grand-daughter-%e2%80%9cpathetic%e2%80%9d/ Joke Line Just Called IF Stone’s Grand-Daughter “Pathetic” | No Bull. news service.

    [...] go read the whole thing. It’s required reading for understanding how Joke Line came to call IF Stone’s grand-daughter (the author of the post) [...]

  • http://cfelectro.com/real/2009/09/bowe-bergdahl-and-joke-line/ Bowe Bergdahl and Joke Line | No Bull. news service.

    [...] Line, in his screed against Glenn Greenwald, argued that Glenn cares not a whit for national [...]

  • teeroyal

    Maybe once Klien becomes a religious reader of Greenwald he’ll learn how to select a timely subject and reasonably editorialize. Until then, whine privately.

    That Time publishes this joker at all is evidence enough that MSM titans are losing relevancy.

  • http://cms.salon.com/2009/09/01/klein-14/ Beltway culture, checks on journalists and secrecy obligations

    [...] ambivalent about whether even to acknowledge this obviously disturbed, Cheneyite rant from Joe Klein.  On the one hand, I don’t want to be dragged down into what is, for him, quite [...]

  • http://www.dev2.salonplanet.net/wordpress/2009/09/08/law-5/ The difference between “legal” and “illegal”

    [...] we cannot Stay Safe and simultaneously have a government that abides by the law [in his McCarthyite screed recently accusing me of "indifference" to American national security, Joe Klein wrote that [...]

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