RNC’s Poor Form

” .. Does this slimy tactic concern you? ..”

eh .. eh.. Dunno.

You betcha! GRR!
ARGGGH!

“slimy”?
Hey! Are you trying to push-pull me?

I’ve no’ seen this poll, per’aps ’cause I be a democrat?
.
Kind o’ makes me think th’ Republicans be usin’ voter registration rolls t’ discriminate ag’inst Democrats in receivin’ their fair share allocation o’ batsh*t crazy fear-mongerin’ messagin’ -an’ incidentally – ag’inst pr’vidin’ ‘em th’ opportunity t’ easily blast their paranoid fantasies ri’ out o’ th’ water.
.
Th’ fact tha’ they be employin’ th’ very tactics they be ascribin’ t’ th’ democrats…cognitive dissonantly priceless!
.
yarr.

I’d suggest that any poll that starts out with “It has been suggested…” is very likely to be a push poll.

Actually “Question 1” asks “Do you believe the state of America’s health care is in crisis”?

Personally I am not in the least offended by this “survey”. But if you read this Sen Feingold Survey
.
I think you will find it too also implicates a “Crisis” in America’s Healthcare. Is there a crisis, Michael?
.
This seems to be the “Question #1″ on most people’s minds. But, is the Republican Party “survey” exploiting an issue by asking the question in #4? Yes.
.
The Republican Party survey also included a letter from Michael Steele, who asks for donations to “combat” the Democrat Party’s on-slaught of propaganda.
.
I do not think that you can play down the out-rage in this video being expressed all across the country at this time.

Or, do you believe that all of the townhall meetings are being manipulated, Michael? Just like this questionaire is? I would also be curious as to your thoughts on that as well as you are curious about my thoughts on “Question #4″.

“Everyone knows this is not true. Does this slimy tactic concern you?”
.
Not so much, really. I’m not an idiot or a “conservative” so I know not to believe anything a Republican says (and, at this point, to presume that it’s a lie) without checking the facts for myself.
.
Though, obviously, you’re completely wrong that “[e]veryone knows this is not true” [emphasis mine]. And the reason for that is described both above and below:

In fact, it is the media’s behavior that has made this summer’s madness inevitable. When they let the loudest yellers and most audacious liars drive the discourse, they guarantee that people who can’t win on the merits will yell and lie. When they focus on politics rather than policy, they guarantee the public will remain in the dark about basic facts. When they repeat false claims, or treat them as he-said, she-said situations, they guarantee that those false claims will sway confused citizens. When they continue to give a platform to people who have a history of lying — and assume those people are telling the truth this time — they guarantee those people will continue to lie.
.
As long as the media approach their jobs this way, we’re going to see the same thing play out over and over again. And each time, the media will be shocked — shocked — that some people lie, and other people believe lies.

http://mediamatters.org/columns/200908210024

Does this slimy tactic concern you?

Yes. As does stuff like this.

I think it’s about time we start using the word ‘traitors’ to describe people who are so dead-set on using fear and hatred to turn Americans against each other in this manner.

Some may think that the word has been overused in the context of foreign policy debate but I think it’s been underused when discussing adherence to the Constitution or for that matter simple civil behavior.

I don’t put anything past government. Nixon and Clinton with the IRS.
.
And look at all the violations of the tax laws by politicians out in the open. Does the IRS go after them? No. But they’ll come after me.

Traitor-in-Cheif
.
Don’t you think so Dirks?

It is slimy and it is not surprising.

The fact that Republicans have to lie and scare the hell our of their constituents to ber relevant tells you all you need to know about their party.

Luckily for the Republicans, their core constituency is easily manipulated and frightened to the point where they won’t try to find independent information to either verify or disprove some of the crazy claims.

I would like to understand how your mind works.
.
No. No, Michael, you would not like to understand that.
And anyway, the more apt question would be how that particular mind is screwed up, and whether it got that way through nature, accident, or exposure to batsh!t.

Especially when you consider the fact that in order to be identified as a Republican or a Democrat (or whatever) in WA you have to go out of your way to register as one. Up here you don’t have to declare a party affiliation to be registered to vote. So even if that statement were even close to true it would be virtually impossible to enforce in this state. So the question is ridiculous on its face in WA, I wonder what they were thinking asking that up here.

I think you’re living in the past.

The Michelle Bachmannization of the republican party accelerates.

It is ironic that Republicans fought for many years to stop insurance from having to cover mental health, and yet they are the ones that appear most likely to reap the benefits of affordable mental health treatment.
Oh, Michael Steele was classic on NPR this morning.

Don’t take pafro’s word for it.

Here’s Michael!
http://tpmtv.talkingpointsmemo.com/?id=3291556&ref=fpblg

You know, until Michael posted the update from the RNC spokesperson, I thought maybe it was a hoax, not because I didn’t think the RNC would stoop that low, but because I didn’t think they would sign their name to it and add a fundraising plug to boot. “Inartfully worded” indeed. If by inartful Ms. Wright means the lies were not up to the RNC’s usual standards of eloquence, then well, OK…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGRUx2b0ArM” rel=”nofollow”>More batsh$t crazy. Survey not included.
.
Here you go Tweedle Dee. Maybe you can learn something about Nature versus Nurture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGRUx2b0ArM” rel=”nofollow”>More batsh$t crazy
.
Survey not included.

Just how stupid do you have to be to believe even a fraction of what the rnc is spewing? After reading that “survey” wouldn’t the first question to yourself be why on earth would even the Democrats want something so horrible?

I guess folks with live brain cells would do their own research, but it’s not looking like there’s many of that kind on the rnc mailing lists these days.

Republicans can’t govern worth a lick, but they’re world class liars.

UPDATE: [Seven more Republican lies] – Katie Wright, a spokeswoman for the RNC.

Wow. Amazing how you guys trust politicians. You guys must not know how many many local governments work. Try getting a city contract in Chicago if you are a Republican.

The Republicans wil continue to lie as long as people like Michael let them get away with it. The job of a free press in a democracy is to inform the public and they have not been doing their job for some time now. Our democracy suffers for it.

I really hope I get to serve on your death panel.

“The idea, however, that anyone would use voter registration to determine health care allocation is a malicious fiction intended to disrupt the debate, not further it.”
.
Au contraire, Mr. Scherer. Government officials often leverage control over benefits to screw people. Whether it’s Clinton and Nixon and the IRS, or Rod Blagojevich trying to get Chicago Tribune people fired.
.
It’s a legitimate political issue. For crying out loud, it is an open secret that tenure decisions are based on politics at, gasp, state universities. Is it really inconceivable that political pull and political animosity would never enter into a healthcare decision.
.
And by the way. Didn’t we just see, on the part of Democrats mostly, the attempt to use the power of the government to screw AIG people out of their bonuses? Please explain, Mr. Scherer, how that episode doesn’t give you some pause.

“The idea, however, that anyone would use voter registration to determine health care allocation is a malicious fiction intended to disrupt the debate, not further it.”
.
And gee, don’t we see all sorts of resources allocated on the basis of politics, e.g., transportation and other pork. Why would allocation of medical resources be sacrosanct?

Extremely off-topic; I apologize…
~
To anyone optimistic enough to have believed that Obama could potentially be a fair broker of peace with regard to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, as I was until today, I must share this very disappointing revelation.
~
I have just received a draft of the President’s peace initiative, which was leaked to the International Middle East Media Center by Palestinian Legislator Hasan Khreisha.
~
The plan includes the following:
.
1. International presence in the Jordan Valley, Palestinian Plains area, and other areas in the West Bank.
.
2. Annexing some parts of East Jerusalem to remain under Israeli control, while Muslim holy site would be under Arab control.
.
3. All Palestinian factions would be dissolved and transformed into political parties.
.
4. Large settlement blocs in the West Bank would remain under Israeli control, while negotiations would be conducted within three months of the plan agreement to discuss the future of smaller settlements.

9. Allowing an agreed upon number of refugees to return, and to be settled in the Plains area and other areas in the West Bank, particularly in the cities of Ramallah and Nablus. A special fund for supporting the refugees would also be established.
.
10. Israel starts releasing the Palestinian political detainees immediately after the peace deal is signed. Three years would be allocated for the release of the detainees.
~
This plan, in general consistency with US tradition, blatantly favors Israel and essentially demands nothing from them. With regard to the Palestinians, however, their state is to be stripped of airspace rights, denied the sovereign right to engage in military alliances, shrunken even more than it already has over the years by a legitimization of illegal Israeli settlements (in violation of the 4th Geneva Convention), infringed upon by more condoned Israeli military presence, coupled with huge portions of East Jerusalem annexed to Israel (in violation of the 1947 Partition Plan) and more military presence by way of international forces. This plan is despicably uneven. It is an insult to legitimate Palestinian aspirations for statehood. It will be rightfully rejected by the Palestinians. Yet the Israelis, who have already suggested that they will support this plan, will undoubtedly spin Palestinian rejection of this biased plan as obstruction to peace. The plan is made to make Palestinians reject it so as to further the propaganda that they reject peace. This plan is not peace, it is a continued system of subjugation, dependency, and injustice. Mr. Obama, I had such high hopes for your purported pursuit of decency in international affairs. You have failed miserably in this regard.

Oh Exiled, you miss the point. Obama is just being rolled by the Israelis.

I find it hilarious how Republicans are now suddenly pro-Privacy rights, especially considering how strongly they pushed through the Patriot Act and other such legislation.

It’s almost sad seeing them scamper around in such perpetual fear, though. As if discrimination based on political affiliation would actually occur without billion-dollar lawsuits and Supreme Court rulings. You have to wonder what about their psychosis requires them to be afraid of everything.

Redraven, try getting a city contract if you are a Republican in Chicago. Or tenure at a major state university.
.
Also, pork etc. is distributed based on politics–think that billions of dollars in health care money ain’t gonna be?
.
Then there’s the malevolent crap, see AIG.

Right spob, Given all those Republican seniors who have been denied their medicare benefits based on their party affiliation, you have every right to be concerned. What? That’s never happened? Sorry, my bad.

You’re exactly right – that’s extremely off-topic.

We return you now to the existing thread, which is already in progress.

Michael:

When will we see a Time story for general readership that directly addresses RNC falsehoods as a primary tactic in their opposition to health care reform?

[crickets]

That, by the way, is the single greatest driver in the shift of public opinion. Do your damn job.

Forgive me, FO, but this is an extremely pertinent development. I have just now been informed as to this and wanted to share it with the Swamp community. Might I ask when else it would be ‘acceptable’ to reveal this? Should I await another Klein fluff-piece on Israeli probity? I’m sure that if it was flattering to Obama you would not object, however his duplicitous abandonment of the Palestinian plight is cause for outrage, at least by those who actually care. Shall I cross you off that list?

But government has done this in the past, so we’re supposed to ignore the possibility now? Ok, gotcha.
.
In any event, the RNC should not have said “Democrats”. It should have said “government”.
.
In any event, make it so we can trust you on tenure in state universities before we hand you over the healthcare system.

I am concerned. MS forgot to use the standard form and show a bad example of “both sides” doing it.
.
You call yourself a journalist?

spob, you’re changing the subject. I would change the subject to if I were trying to defend this kind of crap. We’re not talking about local political machines and we’re not talking about tenure at state universities. The subject is whether or not a government-run healthcare program will deny coverage based on one’s party affiliation. Good news! There is no history of Medicare (Michael Steele’s favorite government program) denying anyone benefits based on political affiliation. Period. We have a real-world example of how this will work, and it works pretty well. Stop changing the subject, spob.

I don’t mean to patronize, FO, but seriously, to some people the global human condition is simply more important than American partisan shenanigans. I’m tired of US domestic mediocrity and all its inane baggage, from cultural irrelevance to political ineptitude. Let both sides fire away at each other, I don’t really give a damn anymore. I certainly wont adhere to any arbitrary assertions of on-topic relevance. When the topic is so utterly infantile, as is the usual case with any post on US political happenings, I’ll rant and rave all day about that which is truly vital.

You know, Paul, I think traitor is a bit harsh. Paranoid fool followed by the gullibly ignorant might be more accurate. Of course, I don’t ascribe to malevolence what can be adequately explained by stupidity.

I disagree. It’s the Lyndon Laroucheization of the Republican Party.

With Republican Congresscritters endorsing the Larouchies’ posters of President Obama with the Hitler moustache, it’s becoming clear that the Republican message machine has been taken over by Lyndon Larouche. Two prime examples:

http://www.larouchepub.com/pr/2009/090821va_anti_life.html

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2009/3632house_no_imac.html

Right out of the Republican message machine.

I disagree. It’s the Lyndon Laroucheization of the Republican Party.

With Republican Congresscritters endorsing the Larouchies’ posters of President Obama with the Hitler moustache, it’s becoming clear that the Republican message machine has been taken over by Lyndon Larouche. Two prime examples:

http://www.larouchepub.com/pr/2009/090821va_anti_life.html

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2009/3632house_no_imac.html

Right out of the Republican message machine.

Exiled, thanks for posting this. Fortunately my expectations were low so I can’t describe myself as disappointed.
.
And while the RNC’s open adoption of a paranoid smear campaign on health care reform is undoubtedly newsworthy, important developments in the Israel-Palestine situation can never be that off-topic on a political blog.

…So why does it seem that Democrats are so unprepared for this sort of thing, kind of like the Kerry campaign was unprepared for swift-boating?

OK, it’s time to take away their guns (and sharp objects) and send them to the re-education camps. If they say “I’ll give up my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands”, well, that works too. Jeff Foxworthy could build a whole new act on “You might be a republican if…”.

sz:
The Democrats continue to expect responsible, professional behavior from the media, assuming the objective outing of constant liars will have the impact it should have.

Silly Democrats. The media that gave us the exposure of Republican lies and criminality in ’73-’74 now give us only “fair and balanced” coverage, where lies and honesty are entitled to equal unchallenged coverage.

I take that back – in The Village, it’s required to challenge the truth by quoting the lies.

Pretty clearly, he’s referring to the inventors and purveyors of scaremongering falsehoods to advance the narrow corporate interests of the insurance industry against the interests of the United States as a whole. That’s a naked betrayal of the country any way you slice it. Traitorous isn’t too strong a word to describe what they are doing to their fellow Americans.

Thank you, Rose. I’m sure you are aware of my political leanings, so it may strike you as odd that I truly believed Obama could be different in regard to US foreign-policy. I especially had high hopes for a fair approach to the Israeli-Palestinian crisis that would seek to alleviate the conditions within Gaza, address the vital need for sovereign functionality and cease the incessant lining of Israeli pockets. Obama’s rhetoric on the matter was honest and inspiring, that is until the 2004 DNC speech in which he essentially spouted AIPAC talking-points. However, he returned towards decency with his recent dialogue on settlements, only to return again to biased and politically expedient retrogression with this latest “peace” plan. For the whole of my existence it has been unavoidably necessary to weep for Palestine. It is, in light of this latest development, disappointingly still unavoidable.

shepherdwong, I with you on this one. They’re traitors to their country, just like Reagan was for trading arms for hostages. He should have been tried for treason.

To be fair to Democrats (whether they deserve it or not), with each new election cycle/major issue, Republican insanity descends to another, previously unimagined, level of batsh*t crazy.

[...] Michael Scherer contacted the RNC about that question and this is the response he was given by one of their spokeswomen, Katie Wright: Although the question was inartfully worded, Americans [...]

I mean, it’s gotten so bad that even the pathologically centrist corporate press has been forced to report on it.

FlownOver:
.
The media that gave us the exposure of Republican lies and criminality in ’73-’74…
.
…is the same media that gave us the health care reform debate in ’93.
.
…and the same media that gave us “Al Gore is a big, fat phony!” in 2000.
.
…and the same media that gave us the run up to the Iraq War in 2003.
.
At this late date, isn’t it about time that we Democrats and liberals started to consider the strange notion that it’s us, and not just those bad ol’ people and institutions out there that are responsible for the way things are?
.
Don’t we have a responsibility to at least examine the possibility that the reason why Americans are so incredibly poorly informed about the basic facts in this debate:

In healthcare debate, 79% of public supports public option, but only 37% is able to identify it
.
Denver, Colorado, August 25, 2009 – A new poll finds that although 79% of respondents are in favor of the policy known as a “public option” when it’s included in a list of possible healthcare reforms, just 37% are able to correctly identify the much-discussed proposal from a list of possible definitions.
.
The research, which was conducted by Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates (PSB) and released exclusively at a health care forum featuring the National Journal’s Charlie Cook and underwritten by the AARP, PSB, and Burson-Marsteller, also revealed that 26% of Americans believe that the “public option” refers to the creation of a Great Britain-style national health care system.
.
A new survey commissioned by the AARP conducted by Penn, Schoen and Berland Associates asks respondents to what degree they support or oppose “[s]tarting a new federal health insurance plan that individuals could purchase if they can’t afford private plans offered to them” — a public option, in other words. The results are interesting, though not necessarily surprising to those who have been closely following the debate.
.
All: 79 percent favor/18 percent oppose
.
Democrats: 89 percent favor/8 percent oppose
.
Republicans: 61 percent favor/33 percent oppose
.
Independents: 80 percent favor/16 percent oppose (h/t MyDD)

, just the way it was in 1993?

I second this motion!

Comrade sacredh, I am hereby reporting you to the Central Committee for disclosing our plans to take away guns and set up re-education camps. Naughty, naughty, sacredh!

Sorry, that’s:
.
Don’t we have a responsibility to at least examine the possibility that the reason why Americans are so incredibly poorly informed about the basic facts in this debate is that it’s just the way it was in 1993?

LOL. If it wasn’t so sad it would be funny. What kind of a moron couldn’t see through those questions in a heartbeat? Clue…you see them screaming at town hall meetings. I’d bet that if you asked them about euthanasia they’d tell you that you need to start worrying more about the young people right in the good old US of A.

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2009/8/27/14526/1072

What I think is your attempt at being facetious, spob, is actually spot on. This “peace” plan was written for, if not by, the Israelis, not for peace.

shepherdwong:
.
with each new election cycle/major issue, Republican insanity descends to another, previously unimagined, level of batsh*t crazy
.
That’s funny…I seem to remember something about the First Lady being a murderer…
.

The Arkansas Project
.
On May 2, 1999, the Washington Post published new details on the pursuit of a Vincent Foster conspiracy in an article by David Brock, a key figure in the Troopergate and Whitewater scandals whose disillusionment with the political corruption motivating what would come to be known as the Arkansas Project ended his lifelong commitment to the Conservative movement and facilitated public dissemination of insider details on G.O.P. machinations. The article explains how Brock was “summoned” to a meeting with Rex Armistead in Miami, Florida at an airport hotel. Brock claims that Armistead laid out for him an elaborate “Vince Foster murder scenario,” – a scenario that he found implausible.”[5]
.
In an interview for Salon.com (2000), Brock also revealed that he and Armistead received funding throughout Clinton’s two terms in office from Richard Scaife for the initiative known as the Arkansas Project[6]. The Project aimed to discredit the sitting President & First Lady through investigations into a range of issues that could potentially prove problematic for the couple, from rehashed drug smuggling allegations to their long-standing relationship with Foster and other professionals/officials in Arkansas.

“At this late date, isn’t it about time that we Democrats and liberals started to consider the strange notion that it’s us, and not just those bad ol’ people and institutions out there that are responsible for the way things are?”

No, and I think that the partisan breakdown about understanding what a public option is that you site proves that the problem isn’t liberals. The basic problem is as follows: 1) rich, corporatist elites that sponsor disinformation outlets and campaigns designed to fool the public into voting against their own interests, for the sake of elite interests, 2) corporations and elites who twist public policy to serve their own narrow purposes, including creating and using the right to further infect public policy by paying off our elected representatives, both (practically all) Republicans and (many) Democrats and 3) a corporate-controlled press that won’t tell the public the important truth. That explains your poll results and our public dysfunction perfectly adequately without blaming the one group that has been beating its brains out trying to overcome the entire corrupt system.

sacredh:
.
What kind of a moron couldn’t see through those questions in a heartbeat?
.
The kind of “moron” that doesn’t know that the United States doesn’t have the best health care in the world.
.
We condescend to these people at our political peril, sacredh.

I remember very well, Stuart. Do you also remember that, like the Swiftvet liars, the whole smear was kept at arms length from “respectable” Republican politicians and elites, waged instead by right-wing media smear merchants who were already discredited and disreputable. When the GOP presidential candidate, every Republican in Congress, the head of the RNC, etc, etc., fully engages in teh crazy, that’s a new level of corruption of “conservatives” and Republicans and our society.

OK, so the fact that the health care debate is playing out almost exactly the way that it did 15 years ago has nothing to do with how liberals and Democrats have approached politics for the past 15 years.
.
“the problem isn’t liberals“, it’s liberals’ problems that are at fault here.
.
Got it.

Digby (with the $64 trillion question for our hosts):

How long is everyone going to deny just how f[#]cking crazy mainstream Republicanism has become? And when are people going to start asking seriously where this is headed?

OK, so how do liberals change: 1) “conservative” corporatist liars and their propaganda, 2) the bankruptcy of the corporate press and/or 3) the ignorance, gullibility and authoritarian-following impulses of great numbers of Americans?

shepherdwong:
.
When the GOP presidential candidate, every Republican in Congress, the head of the RNC, etc, etc., fully engages in teh crazy, that’s a new level of corruption of “conservatives” and Republicans and our society.
.
I respectfully disagree.
.
The whole “this is a whole new crazy” meme is part and parcel of the centrist political media’s disavowal of the role they’ve played in all of this –from the first health care debate to the run up to the Iraq War.
.
It’s not a “whole new level”, it’s that they’ve succeeded in moving the Overton Window to the right by doing the same thing for 15 years, while we have (sadly) also repeated ourselves.
.
They do the same things again and again, and the conversation is about “who is trustworthy” –and the American people still don’t know that we have the most expensive health care system in the developed world.
.
We do the same things again and again, like mocking ordinary people who are scared of a “government takeover”, calling folks who are angry racially motivated, coming up with detailed plans with clinical, precise words like “S-Chip” and “Public Option” –and the American people still don’t know that we have the most expensive health care system in the developed world.
.
Who’s winning? We really can’t fault ourselves for any of our part in this?
.
None of this could have been expected and prepared for?

Through vigorous campaign finance reform, to start. Remove corporate interests altogether from the campaign. Lessen the amounts that private interests, i.e. lobbies, can contribute. Up the personal limits. Make campaigns rely on support from the people. That is the first, and possibly most important, step, in my opinion.

And a fine opinion it is (though I would go back a step and unwind the legal/Constitutional contrivance of “Corporate Personhood” altogether). But it’s not as if liberals haven’t been trying to do that for generations, only to be stymied by 1), 2) amd 3) above.

the ignorance, gullibility and authoritarian-following impulses of great numbers of Americans
.
Jesus Christ, that’s part of our whole problem right there.
.
These are normal people we’re talking about.
.
They don’t know what you know, period.
.
This isn’t some noble cause that they’re too stupid or selfish to sign up for, it’s that they live in a very strange country in which they don’t seem to be allowed to know what goes on in other lands.
.
It’s like having to stand bread and soup lines, and having familiar, comforting conversations with the person next to you in line about how at least it’s the best bread and soup in the world. We would call countries whose people didn’t know how bad they had it –and who brainlessly rattled off jingoist slogans– “behind the Iron Curtain”, wouldn’t we?
.
But we don’t live in a totalitarian state.
.
We live in a free country, where rightists were free to get their crap together and organize, where they were free to start their own media on the un-listened part of the AM dial, where they were using the power of grass-roots organizing in cultural bedrocks of their communities (churches), and where they assumed a great deal of local, state and finally national elected power.
.
They did this all under our very noses.
.
We don’t like to admit that the right out-hustles us every day, shepherdwong, but they do. We also don’t like to admit that the right is a popular movement whose ranks are filled not with psychotic lunatics, but with ordinary people who have a different culture than us –and who are able sometimes to relate to others better than we do.
.
If we can’t look in the mirror and figure out a better way than to call people dupes, than why should we be surprised when they don’t trust us?
.
Are you so sure that “the bankruptcy of the corporate press” is accepted at a gut level by your Democratic leaders the way that “the liberal media” is parroted by the entire Republican establishment?
.
Are you so sure that ““conservative” corporatist liars and their propaganda” aren’t kicking our asses in this debate again not because they’re super-extra-bonus crazy this time, but because we’re so worthless and unprepared for it… because we didn’t vow to ourselves “never again” the last time?
.
We’re just bystanders in all of this?

“These are normal people we’re talking about.
.
They don’t know what you know, period.”
.
“Normal people” is such a quaint (and misleading) turn of phrase.
.
First, read this (as much as you can tolerate): http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/ . Now, tell me who’s “normal”.
.
Second, I don’t mean to oversimplify. There are lots of woefully ignorant and disaffected (people who purposely never take in any news and learn what they know from their similarly ignorant friends) but there are also a lot of people who self-censor (“I only watch FOX”) and even “conservatives” and/or Republicans who read and hear all the information we are privy to (like the ones who read this blog) yet cling to absurd beliefs regardless. Technically they “know” what I know but their psychology prevents them from understanding the truth of it.
.
Finally, you still haven’t said what liberals could do differently to change things.

“The whole “this is a whole new crazy” meme is part and parcel of the centrist political media’s disavowal of the role they’ve played in all of this –from the first health care debate to the run up to the Iraq War.”
.
It would actually be smart of them to use the Republican mainstreaming of crazy to try to escape their responsibility for enabling “conservatism” but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s been (more, if you prefer) mainstreamed.
.
“None of this could have been expected and prepared for?”
.
Again, for the last time, how?

It has been suggested that the Republican Party has to resort to lies because the facts are not on their side.
.
It has been suggested that their only hope for success lies in hoping voters believe their lies and reporters fail to call them out for it.

“…the bill gives government bureaucrats access to a range of Americans’ personal information…”

Does the bill being bandied about, in fact, do this?

If an individual does not opt for the public option, does the legislation still require medical information to be transferred to the government?

One more thing. “It’s the Democrats’ and liberals’ fault” sounds a lot like a (false and self-serving) centrist media meme to me, along with the idea that a solid portion of this country “just doesn’t understand”, rather than being totally incapable of understanding due to right-wing manipulation and authoritarian-following personalities that render them functionally insane to the rest of us. Face it, you’ve argued enough with these people to know that they are unreachable by observable reality and the use of reason and logic. What do you call that?

You may well be right, but I still think that stupidity is a plausible explanation.

I third 53-3

“We condescend to these people at our political peril, sacredh.”
.
Why? They loath us and having been calling us traitors for decades. They don’t listen to a word we say. They’re fomenting insurrection over a black Democratic president’s attempt to save the global economy from the effects of “conservatism” and reform heath care policy. What, exactly, do we have to lose by condescending to them?
.
I say call them out for what they are, shame them, marginalize them, silence them, send them to the political wilderness where they belong.

OK, so how do liberals change: 1) “conservative” corporatist liars and their propaganda, 2) the bankruptcy of the corporate press and/or 3) the ignorance, gullibility and authoritarian-following impulses of great numbers of Americans?

4. None fo the above. Actively engage the media with accurate, timely information. You can’t censor the stupidity, but you can keep pushing accurate information. You can also put the loonies +coughBachmanncough+ on full display, so everyone can see just how cracked they are.
Liberals in congress need to actually pay attention to debates and the enemy instead of fighting turf wars.

“The job of a free press in a democracy is to inform the public and they have not been doing their job for some time now.”
.
I think this is probably one of the great disconnects in our country. Reality is, it is NOT their job. It is what we ideally would “like” for the press to be about, but the overwhelming majority of the press is part of larger (entertainment) business groups. And the number one goal of those groups is to profit. If being great, informative journalists was the most profitable thing to do, they’d do it.
.
Frankly, it is not even close to being the smart thing for them to do business wise, so we really should not be surprised as to the outcome. This is more a side effect of our cultural condition as opposed to a specific failing by those involved with news media as a whole.

And let us be clear … any one of us who walked to the closest public facility and asked 100 random people who has the best health care in the world would get over 50 answers that said it was the USA.
.
If there is a crisis in the United States, the state of our health care is a symptom, not the root cause.

Stupid traitors? Who’d a thunk it?

” Actively engage the media with accurate, timely information. You can’t censor the stupidity, but you can keep pushing accurate information.”
.
I’m sure that’s why God created the intertubes. The media had become insular, which is revealed by the thin skins of most journos (and that they don’t seem to understand that the rest of us have to hear sometimes harsh criticism from both our bosses and our customers). And “bloggers don’t factcheck”. Also.
.
It’s a shame. Otherwise, it could be a match made in heaven.

shepherdwong:
.
Right now I’ve got to go head over to Second Life to the Virtually Speaking Amphitheater, where Jay Ackroyd (Jimbo Hoyer) is hosting his weekly show
.
http://virtuallyspeaking.ning.com/events/novelist-jason-starr
.
, so I will allow everyone to escape the boredom of another lengthy comment by saying that I very much appreciate this conversation we’re having, and your contributions here generally.

stuart, I’d like to argue with your point, but I’m afraid I agree. The sad truth is that the people on this site are not in any way, shape or form representative of the public at large. You say that we condescend to these people at our peril. You’re right and that fact infuriates me.
.
I hesitate to get all X-Files on anyone, but the truth is out there. The tragedy is that most people don’t give enough of a sh!t to investigate on their own. They’ll watch Fox or listen to a biggoted drug addict that can’t sport wood without viagra and think they’re discovered some long lost Gospel. It’s hard not to condescend to them and remember that we had to go through eight years of an unmitigated disaster to change parties.
.
I keep thinking that the country has learned it’s lesson and won’t make the same mistake again anytime soon. I’m probably wrong about that. Most people are going to hear what they want to hear and choose who they hear it from. The truth is beside the point. Birthers, teabaggers, death panel fear mongers and torturers obviously have more supporters than we care to admit.
.
It’s amazing, but true. We often assume that logic and reason will prevail, but sometimes I concede that it’s just wishful thinking. I never thought I’d live to see a black man elected President. Obama’s election gave me more hope for this country than any other single event in my lifetime. I tend to gloss over the fact that he beat the Crypt Keeper and an airhead to do it.

Actually, Maurice, I would argue that it IS the role of the press, within a democracy, to inform the public. The problem is that, as you noted, the media are run as for-profit businesses. Setting aside most of the pros and cons for a moment, there is no connection between informing people and making money off the same group. The goals have little in common, and money will always win out.

@hotbbQ – Now that is a response I am going to remember – thank you!

[...] que haja algo de errado nisso!). Quando questionada, a porta-voz do RNC disse que a pergunta foi “inartfully worded”. Show de bola. [...]

[...] Topics: barack obamahealth care, john cornyn About a month ago, a Republican National Committee mailer surfaced, showing that the party had sent out a bogus "poll." The poll asked recipients if they were [...]