Lower Than Dirt

How sad.

Joe, I’d like to see you disown your own poisonous swill, but I’m not holding my breath for that to happen either.

Joe I thought the column was eponymously named.

So its ok to scare people if you do it under the guise of the high brow media outlets like the NYT or Time? The sucking sound is the sound of your (and other MSM) employer circling the drain. You may not agree with FOX, or Drudge but the content is not any more distorted or ridiculous than the MSM who has gone unchecked for decades. Sucks to have competition doesn’t it. Now you have the same felling as people who work for a living deal with everyday.

PS Joe

Could it be you just saw the week viewing results for cable news outlets where the lowest rated Fox show had an audience 66% higher than the highest rated MSNBC show (Olbermann). In fact the 5-11 Fox lineup has 3.46 times more viewers than the top MSNBC and CNN shows for that time.

I am sure that will bring in the rants of how stupid these people are. Maybe, but they could be dumber they could be reading Time and watching MSNBC

“You may not agree with FOX, or Drudge but the content is not any more distorted or ridiculous than the MSM who has gone unchecked for decades.”

Snap!

“Needless to say, there is no plan to nationalize or socialize health care.”
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You forgot to mention that everything they said about socialized medicine is a lie too.

Actually, plenty of Republican party leaders — Steele, Palin, Grassley — ARE spreading these lies. It’s up to Democratic party leaders to call them out as liars, by name. Like so: Michael Steele is lying; Chuck Grassley is lying. It’s not that hard, and Republicans look their most unattractive when they’re outraged.

There will be rationing, you can bet on it Joe Klein. As a matter of fact, if I were you I would look into the clinics and doctors in India. You should investigate where the best doctors and hospitals are in India for when you want needed medical care. That is if you survive your experience in the soon to come, over filled Emergency Rooms, and can be stabilized enough to transfer you to India.
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Retiring baby boomer doctors are fast leaving the medical system. Soon there will be fewer and fewer doctors to treat the existing people in this country, let alone the millions up on millions who will be covered under ObamaCare.
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Sure, emergency treatment will be available. But long term care for things like cancer, hip replacements, bypass surgery, etc will be so back logged you will wait more than a year.
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In Canada right now they are holding lotteries just to get a doctors appointment for a routine checkup.
[]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124451570546396929.html[]
“Overall, according to a study published in Lancet Oncology last year, five-year cancer survival rates are higher in the U.S. than those in Canada.”
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No Joe, you yet again confirm your “goofball” status by printing such an erroneous and out-rageous blog post. The unfortunate thing is that un-suspecting people, like the liberal commenters on this site will run with it like a wild dog and it’s bone. They will say things such as…
“Joe, I’d like to see you disown your own poisonous swill, but I’m not holding my breath for that to happen either.”
or this goody…“How sad”
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But the real sad thing is Joe. With the current administration spending like never before in the past, soon there will not be any money in the treasury for any type of healthcare, including Medicare. Soon the United States Government will be bankrupt and broke.
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Who will pay for your healthcare then Joe? I hope you have been dutifully socking away money Joe into your Healthcare Savings Account program offered at TIME. If not, you are screwed buddy.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124451570546396929.html
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Sorry here is the link for my quote above.

That letter, completely undermining a good-faith political process, is close to treasonous in how it destroys faith in the American government and the American political process. This is the sort of heavy-handed propaganda that authoritarian governments use in an effort to keep the masses under control. And fearful—always fearful.

And of course, quite of few of the mindless followers are also spreading the lies. Know what I mean?

Joe, buddy, given your concern about the “poisonous swill,” I’d appreciate your thoughts on the Color-of-Change organized advertising boycott of the Glenn Beck show. I believe 36 companies are onboard, though Fox isn’t too upset–most are merely boycotting Beck and not Fox.

In fact, you might be particularly struck by how Beck describes COC co-founder Van Jones (a White House advisor on the environment) on his show:

BECK: [Jones is] basically a community organizer inside the framework of our republic. That’s what’s happening. When Barack Obama said, “I am going to promise you fundamental transformation of our nation,” this is what’s happening. We are bringing community organizations and community organizers and we’re embedding them inside of the system to build a new framework. This guy in particular, and he’s not the only one, and you’ll see more tonight, this guy in particular is an avowed communist, communist!

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/25/beck-van-jones/

I bring this to your attn. b/c your readers are still rightfully concerned about a description of your behavior at a party attended by I.F. Stone’s granddaughter, Aimai, where you apparently described your strongest critic (Greenwald) as “evil,” as a “crazy civil liberties absolutist,” who is “crazily anti-national security.” And the coup de grâce, you said to her: “You read WIKIPEDIA! AND THAT’S LEFTIST”

http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2009/08/no-wait-i-know-this-one-answer-to-who.html

So, help us out a bit here, Mr. I hold Fox, Rush & Drudge in utter contempt–how is your behavior (alleged mind you) at this party any different than Beck’s above response

Rusty if Canada is as bad as you pretend it is how come their satisfaction rates with their health care system are much higher than they are in the US?
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Did you ever consider the possibility that you are just another victim of propaganda?

Joe Klein:
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Maybe if the fact that we’re paying twice as much as every other developed nation for less quality than most were common knowledge in our country, lies wouldn’t work.

Total spending on health care, per person, 2007:
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United States: $7290
France: $3601
United Kingdom: $2992
Italy: $2686
Japan: $2581 (for the year 2006)

Maybe if these rather shocking facts had been common knowledge amongst our people for the past 15 years, obvious lies like

America’s healthcare system works better than government-run systems

wouldn’t be taken seriously by the public.
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How is it possible that a fact as terribly important as this –that the United States’ health care system is essentially ripping off its citizens– hasn’t been made clear, day in and day out to ordinary folks, Joe Klein?
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What has been preventing journalists from telling this amazing, factual story to a worried public year after year?
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The truth of the matter is that the American health care system is nowhere close to being the best in the world, if by “best” we simply mean “the least expensive for the highest quality health care”.
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Why is it that the American public doesn’t know the facts about other countries’ systems? Why is it that we believe that we have the best system in the world, when that isn’t true at all?
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Do we live in some strange kind of place like North Korea, Joe Klein? Is there some law against people knowing what it’s like living somewhere else?
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What prevents our people from knowing that –whatever their legitimate problems– France’s, England’s, Canada’s, Japan’s, all of these countries’ health care systems are better and much cheaper than ours?
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What prevents them from knowing these facts, and therefore asking “Where is all of that money going?“, Joe Klein?
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As you admirably rail against rightist liars, doesn’t it occur to you to ask how it is possible for such a “frightened and militantly uninformed people” to exist in such great numbers in a country where there is freedom of the press?

Total spending on health care, per person, 2007:
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United States: around $7300
Japan: around $2600

The comparison is simply staggering, isn’t it? And yet, people in France are not desperate to unburden themselves of their comparatively cheap, trustworthy and effective system. The Japanese live longest in the world, even though they pay so much less per person than we do.
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Deprived of these facts, the American people are largely under the false impression that we, as a nation, need to pay even more to have a better system…of course we Americans are worried that changing what we have to provide access for more people will somehow endanger their own service, or be unaffordable. If we don’t know that what we have is ridiculously expensive, isn’t it reasonable to assume that doing more must cost more?
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Before blaming the liars for being effective, before blaming the people (some of whom, yes, pronounce the word “foreigner” as “furriner”, notwithstanding your regionalist contempt), even before blaming the Republican Party for its shameless attempts at power, why aren’t you asking who is to blame for making this surreal situation possible?
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Who is keeping the American people behind a strange Iron Curtain, so that the most basic facts about how others in the world live are denied to us?
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Instead of bemoaning Fox, Rush and Drudge (who seem to be kicking your ass in this political debate –again), why aren’t the well-paid luminaries in your profession demanding answers to the question “Where is all of that money going?“, Joe Klein?
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Thanks so much for reading and considering this.

Sad, but true. This is Obama’s biggest delima with ObamaCare.
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here…http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll
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I especially love the graph depicting Obama’s fall from favor with the American Voter. The “Presidential Approval Rating”. Now a -11. Amazing what a socialist President can do to squander a highly successful election in just 6 months.
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American people know this is one big farce on Obama’s agenda. They know anything from our Government sooner or later will cost millions upon millions, billions upon billions and yes, TRILLIONS UPON TRILLIONS more than they say it will.
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Are you ready to pay out over 80% of your hard earned wages Joe to fund Obama’s pipe dream?

You mean the Hillary “will run a parallel government” if named Secretary of State, crazy, lying, lower-that-dirt hack Michelle Bernard? I’m shocked…
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http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/michelle-bernard-hardball-hillary-clint

I’m glad you posted your link to those satisfaction ratings there Derek. It really makes your opinions, credible.

Please tell me you’re not practicing medicine with that brain.

The Times has a pretty good blog post about the situation in Japan:

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/health-care-abroad-japan/

Here you go Rusty.

“Americans are more dissatisfied than citizens of other nations with their basic health care (search) even while paying more of their own money for treatment, a five-nation survey released Thursday notes.

The study shows that people in the U.S. face longer wait times to see doctors and have more trouble getting care on evenings or weekends than do people in other industrialized countries. At the same time, Americans were more likely to receive advice on disease prevention and self-care than others.

One-third of Americans told pollsters that the U.S. health care system should be completely rebuilt, far more than residents of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, or the U.K. Just 16 percent of Americans said that the U.S. health care system needs only minor changes, the lowest number expressing approval among the countries surveyed.”

U.S. Trails Others in Health Care Satisfaction

“WASHINGTON, D.C. — Among the residents of all 30 Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries Gallup surveyed between 2006 and 2008, Americans’ satisfaction with their personal health falls near the group median despite having one of organization’s highest GDPs per capita.”

Among OECD Nations, U.S. Lags in Personal Health

I love it when Mormons complain about communists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_consecration. Btw, the law of consecration is still on the books as doctrine, the practice thereof has just been suspended until the membership is righteous enough to practice it. See also, Mormon polygamy.

Interesting, I noticed a JNS article on the Time-politics page earlier in the week (and, no I didn’t read it). Just now, glancing at the photos in the left margin, I thought to search time.com for JNS and then AS, and apparently both are still submitting stories to Time. But they’re neglecting to add links here in the Swamp. I was under the impression that all the contributors posted their latest columns?

Of course, I’m not complaining, but one wonders why their photos still appear.

Any wonder why Obama’s approval rating is going down if people actually think he wants breast cancer-ridden women dead?

http://www.political-buzz.com/

jcapan says:
BECK: [Jones is] basically a community organizer inside the framework of our republic. That’s what’s happening. When Barack Obama said, “I am going to promise you fundamental transformation of our nation,” this is what’s happening. We are bringing community organizations and community organizers and we’re embedding them inside of the system to build a new framework. This guy in particular, and he’s not the only one, and you’ll see more tonight, this guy in particular is an avowed communist, communist!
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Do you have anything that disputes Beck’s claims, jcapan?
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Please show me where Van Jones does not state not once but MANY times that he is an avowed Communist?
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Please show us jcapan where Van Jones has moved from one radical group to the other in his quest to become Obama’s right hand man?
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Perhaps you would be interested in this article jcapan.
http://www.rightsidenews.com/200908256166/editorial/glenn-beck-closing-in-on-van-jones.html
“Among other things, he revealed that Jones was a leading member of a Marxist organization known by the acronym STORM, which means Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement. A 96-page history of the organization mentions how several STORM members had traveled to Cuba in the summer of 1999 as part of the Venceremos Brigade. This is the group that was originally sponsored by the Castro regime and the Weather Underground.
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Perhaps not, not only do we have the acronyms for ACORN afloat, but now STORM.
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Perhaps we shall see other Obama associates with other acronyms as well.
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Why does Obama hide from his Communist, his Black Theology, his ACORN friends? Or is he?
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I agree with one thing jcapan. I agree with your statement to Joe Klein too “So, help us out a bit here, Mr. [Klein], I hold Fox, Rush & Drudge in utter contempt–how is your behavior (alleged mind you) at this party any different than Beck’s above response?”
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Yes Joe, how can you simply stand by and not report on facts as other news organizations are now reporting on Obama’s friendships and acquaintances? Why are you, a TIME reporter, not also investigating Obama’s radical relationships?
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Are You and TIME going to be scooped yet again Joe Klein, as you sit with your hood-wink on provided by the Obama Administration?

Joe, is it bad that I can’t tell the people who agree with you from the people who can’t stand you?

This study, like all respectable studies performed over the last 15 years, shows similar results:

The U.S. health system is the most expensive in the world, but comparative analyses consistently show the United States underperforms relative to other countries on most dimensions of performance. This report, which includes information from primary care physicians about their medical practices and views of their countries’ health systems, confirms the patient survey findings discussed in previous editions of Mirror, Mirror. It also includes information on health care outcomes that were featured in the U.S. health system scorecard issued by the Commonwealth Fund Commission on a High Performance Health System.

Among the six nations studied—Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States—the U.S. ranks last, as it did in the 2006 and 2004 editions of Mirror, Mirror. Most troubling, the U.S. fails to achieve better health outcomes than the other countries, and as shown in the earlier editions, the U.S. is last on dimensions of access, patient safety, efficiency, and equity. The 2007 edition includes data from the six countries and incorporates patients’ and physicians’ survey results on care experiences and ratings on various dimensions of care.

The most notable way the U.S. differs from other countries is the absence of universal health insurance coverage. Other nations ensure the accessibility of care through universal health insurance systems and through better ties between patients and the physician practices that serve as their long-term “medical home.” It is not surprising, therefore, that the U.S. substantially underperforms other countries on measures of access to care and equity in health care between populations with above-average and below average incomes.

With the inclusion of physician survey data in the analysis, it is also apparent that the U.S. is lagging in adoption of information technology and national policies that promote quality improvement. The U.S. can learn from what physicians and patients have to say about practices that can lead to better management of chronic conditions and better coordination of care. Information systems in countries like Germany, New Zealand, and the U.K. enhance the ability of physicians to monitor chronic conditions and medication use. These countries also routinely employ non-physician clinicians such as nurses to assist with managing patients with chronic diseases.

The area where the U.S. health care system performs best is preventive care, an area that has been monitored closely for over a decade by managed care plans. Nonetheless, the U.S. scores particularly poorly on its ability to promote healthy lives, and on the provision of care that is safe and coordinated, as well as accessible, efficient, and equitable.

For all countries, responses indicate room for improvement. Yet, the other five countries spend considerably less on health care per person and as a percent of gross domestic product than does the United States. These findings indicate that, from the perspectives of both physicians and patients, the U.S. health care system could do much better in achieving better value for the nation’s substantial investment in health.

As it says in your link, Derek.
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“Among the residents of all 30 Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries Gallup surveyed between 2006 and 2008, Americans’ satisfaction with their personal health falls near the group median despite having one of organization’s highest GDPs per capita.”
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Try again Derek, please try again. I am an open person I truly am.
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And, I do believe there are “reforms” which need to happen. But, ObamaCare as it is currently conceived will fail. If not from complete financial ruin for our Country, simply from Government negligence.
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But your link also does not take into account the shear numbers of people who will flood into the ObamaCare Single Payer Option. Which anyone knows that has a brain is what we will end up with in 2 to 5 years after this is passed.
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300 million people in the US, as opposed to Britains 50 million? To Canada’s 31 million people?
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Both systems are already nearly banrupting their countries. You actually believe the crap spewed out by Obama that this will not cost anything to the American taxpayer?
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I for one would like to be marginally satisfied with a system that actually exists, as opposed to one that will not exist at all in a few years.

t-king,
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Thanks for the heads-up about Beck’s conversion. Adds an delicious new layer to his brand of crazy. OTOH, is anyone really better off knowing more about loons like this? Thank kamisama he doesn’t appear on my telly.

Rusty, do you realize you’re citing an op-ed? You know, those things that frequently don’t get fact-checked. If this is as serious as you claim, I’m sure you can find something more substantial than a wsj op-ed.

Maybe because the average JNS article has the nutritional value of a dog turd warmed up in a styrofoam tray, and we tell her so?

LOL@hotbbq

Rusty Obama hasn’t said what his plan is and what is your evidence that Canada’s health care system is bankrupting the country? They pay less than half per capita of what the US pays, a function I would imagine of amortizing the costs over a large number of people, centralizing administration, bulk purchasing and so on.

Amy said in her recent post that she was on vacation last week …and got sick. But she has written some interesting articles that have NOT made their way to here, such as two July pieces on teen foster girls and abortion bill compromises. As for Jay’s piece, did she write while on holiday (KT?) or write it ahead of time?

Thanks for making me choke on my coffee.

No worries shep. He just pretends when he is here.
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Other things he says he is besides being a “Physician”
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1) Successful small business owner (who will lay people off after the last presidential election)
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B) Viet Nam vet who was vilified when he came home
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III) Family man with family and friends serving in Iraq
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Four) Sane

Joe thinks the VA and Medicrap is now in America’s progressive corner?

Maybe that is change, after all.

Oh, BTW, Jihaddie Joe:

MANY more women die of late stage breast cancer in the UK than in the USA, even under their beneficent public health care system.

Why?

WAITING, for months, for basic diagnostic care.

Wake us when you can refute THAT ONE, eh?

Thank you Joe for calling this right-wing propaganda for what it is; lower than dirt.

2 Things:

1. Let’s not waste time talking about liberal’s hypocrisy when it comes to MSNBC. MSNBC is the same as Fox, they both cater to the fringes.

2. NCIS has the most viewers on TV. That doesn’t make it real. The fact that Fox has more viewers than other cable news only means that people find it more entertaining. But as far as journalistic standards go, it’s garbage (yes, just like MSNBC). If high ratings equated to good journalism, CSPAN would be beating everyone.

Why do Canadians (and Arabs, and Israelis, and Japanese, and Germans, and Swiss, and Brits) keep coming to the USA for medical procedures?

Hello?

Anyone homer?

Time-CNN-Jazeera.

Always The Low Facts.

I think most of the healthcare debate from the right is more about the fear of a further loss of political influence than it is about any nonsense about death panels, rationed care or any of the other scare tactics they’re trying to pass off as the truth.
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If Barack can get healthcare costs to go down, the republicans are toast and they know it. They’re pulling these desperate stunts because the smarter ones can see the writing on the wall. With the changing demographics they know their windows of opportunity are closing.
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Obama is going down in his approval ratings, but look at where the republicans are at. Obama’s around 50% now. BFD. Look at where his potential challengers are. They’re in his rearview mirror.
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Many progressives are disappointed that he hasn’t gone far enough. What can we expect in 2012? Are the people who think Obama isn’t going far enough going to vote for Palin or Huckabee because they’re to take us there? Please.

Jihad Joe thinks new MD’s, specialists, clinical trials, and lab research are on the Carnegie Deli menu, easily enough had if you can yell over the lunch hour throng.

El Paso may be the next Mayo Clinic:

The obvious solution is for President Peacock, er, Skippy, uh, Opie, ahem, Obama to make Mexico the 58th state, legalize the illegals and their drug running thugs en route to Ashley Biden’s next coke tasting, and import their crack Incan ancestry of dentistas and medicos.

Viva Dopie!

Yes, Obama’s no Nixon.

Obama’s wage and price controls will obviosuly work wonders.

Just like his union shill of a bogus stimulus bill, botched foreclosure bailouts, amazing AIG bonus management, tentative full blown Tora Bora 2009, race baiting, cop bashing, CIA crashing, Lockerbie influencing list of grand hopes and cool changes.

He’s the George McGovern we never had.

To impeach.

No Joe, you yet again confirm my “goofball” status by printing such an erroneous and out-rageous blog comments like mine. The unfortunate thing is that un-suspecting people, like the wanker commenters on this site (such as myself and hulacreep) will run with it like a wild dog and it’s bone. They will say things such as “rationing!” and “Obamacare!” and look like rank fools in the process. However, I truly cannot help myself. You see, I have no health insurance and cannot afford my medication.

Thanks, Joe. You have hit a nerve, based on the rustyhulagate whining (could someone get them jobs or girlfriends so we don’ have to ignore them?).

Objectively, these Right wing propagandists are not just liars.

1. They are murderers. Every year, 18,000 Americans die from inadequate medical care. That’s 6 9/11′s every year. And these people want at least that many of their fellow Americans to die unnecessarily, every year. And they are lying, carrying guns around, disrupting meetings, and bloviating on blog comment lines, to make sure their fellow Americans die.

2. They are anti-business. The cost of health care is the single biggest component in labor cost, after direct pay, higher than taxes. All of the countries that compete with us provide health care to their citizens, meaning that cost is completely excluded from the cost of employing their citizens. No wonder Canada’s unemployment rate is now lower than ours – their employees cost 20-25% less to employ. This will never change without fundamental change to the system.

3. They are idiots. We are 37th in health outcomes and #1 in health spending. All of the systems better than ours are much closer to President Obama’s plan than the status quo. Yet these idiots ignore all the available data that says that Canadians, Germans, Japanese, French, Cubans, even Costa Ricans are happy with their health plans and obtain better results with costs that are, at a minumum, 25% lower than ours. Instead, they think that somehow free market magic will *poof* solve this problem.

What can you say? You said it, Joe. These people are beneath contempt.

Hmm Obama doesn’t have a plan but he says people are spreading lies about it and it will provide better care and service and it will not add to the deficit. He is not Obama he is Karnak.

Why are people spreading lies about a plan that hasn’t been announced yet? Obama has laid out some principles, but not a detailed plan. It seems to me there are several plans floating around, none of which Obama has laid claim to. The right, as usual, are spreading lies in hopes of stopping any plan that might arise, while at the same time claiming they are also interested in reforming the health system.

And what about liberal propaganda? Lower than pond scum?

People watch the shows for reasons other than entertainment. That may be your interpretation. It appears you suffer from the same all knowing all judging pompous opinions that has befallen the once almighty Obama. Two things are certain: Those people aren’t as dumb as you think they are and you aren’t nearly as smart as you think you are.

If Barack can get healthcare costs to go down……….

IF is the multi-trillion dollar question isn’t it.? There has never been a government entitlement program that has come even close to the expected cost estimates. In fact, they are typically multiples of those estimates.

There are 3 things that will occur: Costs will rise, Services will be cut and the deficit will rise

SInce “progressives” seem to have as their defense everybody lies (except of course). What Obama has planned is not Health Insurance Reform — It is an Entitlement!

Why is health care so hard for people to understand and so easy to manipulate into ridiculous arguments of “government takeover”?

1. Tort Reform (not being addressed by this legislation, which may be the biggest limiting factor in controlling costs assuming something is passed)

2. Change Doctor/Hospital pay incentives from fee for service to outcome oriented (the crazy idea that you get paid for making people healthy)

3. Modernize Health Care infrastructure (how many people still go to the teller to do their banking or pay by check? Health Care should have the same degree of automation and empowerment at the individual consumer level.)

At a high level, that’s really it. And no one talks about it. Thank you MSM and all the trogolites who spend months on “death panels” to an ill informed electorate.

Americans’ satisfaction with their personal health falls near the group median despite having one of organization’s highest GDPs per capita.
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These words, they do not mean what you think they mean.

What many of the “Right” (if ever there was a disingenuous title that is it) don’t seem to be able to come to grips is that the current system is not sustainable. Period. NOT SUSTAINABLE.
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Therefore change is coming one way or the other. Either by mass failure, mass necessity, or preemptive adjustment.
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If they really don’t like what is currently being proposed, by all means make adjustments to it so it is something that “is” sustainable. It certainly isn’t like Obama has rammed anything down the Republican throats. In fact, ask most liberals and they hate his hands off, soft gloves approach to the matter entirely.
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If all the right is going to do is say “no” all the time, even when everyone knows what exists today cannot last, then they’ll never have any credibility outside the core %10-%20 they’ve always had. Communication and population trends almost guarantee that groups mindset will never be a dominant majority again. So either get with the 21st century, or go kicking and screaming into oblivion. It really is just that simple.

Too bad free health care won’t fix stupidity or you could be first in line.

Murders because people die from inadequate health care. Start the Grand juries for the heads of McDonalds, KFC and Coke. People have heart attacks from poor diets and obesity so they must be murderers too.

Anti-buisness? Gee you didn’t get the memo (or maybe you could not read it) from your other lib pals who constantly flail against conservatives for being money grubbing pro business flacks. Beside the idiotic comparison you suck at math or like the President never has run a business.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ecec.nr0.htm

Costs for legally required benefits, including Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, and
workers’ compensation, averaged $2.28 per hour (7.8 percent of total compensation)

The average cost for health insurance benefits was $2.00 per hour worked in private industry (7.3 percent of
total compensation) in March 2009. In March 1999, employer costs for health benefits averaged $1.03, or 5.4 percent
of total compensation.

That is a growth rate of 6.9% per year. Hardly the double digit crisis the LIARS on the left are tossing around. It is true that the cost of health care is higher for union jobs 11.4% of wages while non-union is 6.6%. It is apparent that the most inefficient, least accountable part of our economy- unions- is breaking the back of business and the economy with ridiculous costs for the business. Airlines, Steel, autos all bankrupt by unions- See a pattern yet?

And that goes for far more subjects than just health care. There are a myriad of policies and habits America has developed over the decades that simply can’t last beyond the next 20 years or so. The situation of our health care system is actually just a symptom of a broader problem actually. If there is one thing I can agree with Republicans on is that no matter what we do w/ this current reform, it probably won’t result in a net positive result if we don’t change our overall mindset from a “me, now” focus to a “we, future” mindset.
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Well, we probably don’t agree on anything after the “if we don’t …. ” part, heh.

And if you believe that health care is better in Canada, Cuba or Costs Rica, please by all means GO There.

Ooh, getting tag-teamed by hula and freeper. That sucks, dude.

One thing on the left will never own up to is that everything costs money and with the explosion of entitlements, the tax system is unsustainable. The tax the rich nonsense proves the left is horrible at math or just stupid. If you taxed the rich at 100% it would not cover all the necessary compassionate programs we must absolutely have”.

Rusty: the word is dilemma not delima.
I strongly suggest you get back on your meds.
Congrats for dating Hulagate; ypu look good together.

Digby, for those of us longing for a happy ending:

“The good news is that it’s possible the Democrats are recognizing that … their excuse that they must have bipartisan support is looking more and more like the sell-out it is. Their friends in the GOP aren’t giving them any cover, the pretense is ridiculous….

What’s interesting about that is the tone more than anything else. The sell-outs are almost begging the Republicans to help them pass the terrible, insurance company giveaway bill they want so badly — and the Republicans just won’t cooperate. They are making the Democrats go this alone, which is the last thing they want to do because they have to face their own voters after passing something that won’t work — and now they know the Republicans will kill them no matter what they do. They have nowhere to hide.

If these Democrats had a brain in their heads they’d realize that the best way to maintain their power (and keep getting those big bucks) is to pass a good bill. Successful reform will be their only defense because the true political downside to passing a bad bill now is being out there alone selling out the American people all by themselves.

It’s quite clear these corporatists really don’t want to pass a good bill — they are, after all, more loyal to big business than the Republicans at this point, who see that there is great political hay to be made in taking the populist side (at least until they get back into power.) But in the end the Republicans may just force them to pass something decent anyway by failing to give them the cover for capitulation they so desperately need. It’s an interesting squeeze play that may backfire on the GOP in the long run if good health care reform is passed. (Let’s hope so anyway.)

It’s ironic that if real health care reform is ultimately achieved, it will be at the hands of obstructionist Republicans who refused to help the sell-out Dems. What a screwed up system.”

For the very same reason education in America (overall) is so poor, and why the media (overall) is so poor: because these things have changed their top priority to profit over everything else.
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Health care has very little to do w/ health and care. It is about maximizing profit. Now this is not to bash all people in health care. There are many (hundreds of) thousands of people who actually ‘care’. But as the system flows in totality it is much more important to turn a profit than it is to make a healthy society.
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In the case of the media, people are continually asking why is modern journalism so poor compared to 35 years ago. Well, because the news business is now part of the entertainment industry. That is why so much is about providing emotionally charged titles and argumentative punditry etc. The businesses realize that people are more interested in American Idol than reading a science book. Therefore, if your programming must be profitable 1st and foremost, your programming must appeal to what the majority of watchers will enjoy. IE: more American Idol’ish, less dry facts.
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The education system is essentially the same. Every school district is it’s own little company with executives that figure out ways to maximize the amount of grant money they can acquire. Teachers are paid abysmally in our culture. This tells you exactly what level of priority they hold in our society. Most systems teach to test, and will gladly kick out students who aren’t raising their prospects to gain more funds out of their school.
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Now I’m not saying profit goals are universally bad, but when they eclipse the primary functions of such basic things that have higher meaning, they are counter productive. The health of all Americans, the quality education of all citizens, and the quality of a 4th estate are things that should have been core priorities of our nation from the start. Certainly they are more important than anyone making it rich. Unfortunately, they were not priorities, and like most things in life it is much harder to fix after the fact. Spilled milk as they say.

I don’t know what the “left” position is on it, but the tax system is garbage and should have been tossed a long time ago. Find a number, whatever it is, whether that be %15 or %35, and make a flat tax.
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Of course, that simplistic system requires a level of enforcement and candor the country has never had across the board.

He has laid out principles but not a plan? Talk about dancing on the head of a pin! He is on record as wanting a single payer system. That is a principle. Not a lie ! He said it must be deficit neutral. The only announced plan is not. The CBO says that is a lie (for Obama). Since he has no plan how can he guarantee it won’t add to the deficit, ration care or decrease service? Death panels are said to be a lie, yet the Senate fianace committee dropped something that didn’t exist while the VA still has it as a published policy.
He is on record as saying abortions needs to be covered then says that’s a lie. He has stated AARP is on Board. AARP begs to differ. What was AARP on board with his principles?

Having you dimbulbs run around screaming “they are lying they are lying” is theater of the absurd. By virtue you don’t agree doesn’t make it a lie.

OK Freeinpa, you can get a job too. The reason why non-union health care cost is lower is because the user pays not the employer. The cost isn’t lower, just the part paid by the employer.

I said and I mean it: murderer. You would rather have your fellow citizen die from lack of care than work for real reform And you are doing everything you can to not help your fellow citizen.

I said it and I meant it: idiot. 30 countries have cheaper and better health care than we do, and you don’t want to implement anything that looks like those better systems.

I have run businesses, Freeper, and I would fire anyone who looked at things that worked and decided that, ideologically, they don’t approve and so they won’t implement. We’re in a global competition, Freeper. Get in and start helping. We need productive people who can deal with the truth.

“What a screwed up system.”
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Not sure about the rest of the article, but that sums up most of America right now pretty accurately.

Thanks dullard proving once again the true nut jobs reside on the left.

Yeah, it’s like your wife promising you a threesome on your birthday and then you find out it’s with Rosie O’Donnel and some bag lady with syph.

[...] Joe Klein finds the fund-raising letter that motivated that “soft-spoken” winger to ask his Congressman his gentle question. [...]

There will be rationing, you can bet on it Joe Klein.

Kind of like the way private insurance already rations care?

Yes a public plan will “ration” care for the same reason that private insurance “rations” care; to keep costs down. Unlike private insurance, however, the government will not go line by line through the rule book looking for an excuse to drop you.

I’ve lived overseas. I’ve experienced “socialist” medicine. Yes if you want something other than the basic level of service, you have to pay for it; but I have never had to spend as much time on the phone with insurance companies and doctors as I do in the US. It’s a mess here, and you know it.

Furthermore, if you don’t want the public plan, then don’t sign up for it. It’s your choice. You’ll always be able to buy additional coverage if you want to spend more. No one is going to tell you that you can’t get the latest and most expensive treatment (other than your private insurance company of course). If you have the money, you’ll get it.

“Overall, according to a study published in Lancet Oncology last year, five-year cancer survival rates are higher in the U.S. than those in Canada.”

That’s because the US is very good at cancer research. We should be. We spend massive amounts of money on it. 75% of all bio-pharmaceutical R&D is done here in the US. Advanced cancer treatments are done here as well. Consequently, we pay high prices for those treatments.

Let me put this as simply as I can: the existence of a public plan will not bar you from getting those treatments. If you have the money for the treatment, you can always get it. The public plan is supposed to provide a low-cost, effective, basic level of service to the aggregate populace. No one is going to force you to sign up for it.

If for whatever reason you do end up on the public plan, you can still purchase additional private insurance if you find the public option lacking. Frantically waving the scary rationing flag around is only making you look stupid.

Rusty:

Van’s comments were about the days of his youth, not the present. He was specifically referring to his time spent as a young man in LA during the riots of 1992 after the Rodney Kind trial. You’ve read one blog post which had one paragraph taken from a very long article. Van Jones is an upstanding man who has spent quite a bit of time trying to improve the lives of people much worse off than yourself. If you actually had a shred of humanity in you, you’d understand.

As a person reading this article and following the debate from afar, and from a country that has universal heath care (Australia), I find this all very interesting.

In Australia, and a lot of other countries, an individual can rely on a universal health care system to provide very high quality health care if they are poor. With a potential waiting period for non-emergency procedures. Poor people get the exact same care as the rich in Australia for serious health issues.

Those who can afford it (like myself), usually choose to purchase ‘private’ health insurance which removes the waiting periods for these non-emergency treatments.

If I was poor and had the choice of living with our system or with America’s, there’s little difficulty in deciding.

I can’t imagine being sick and uninsured in America where taxpayers are unwilling to share the burden of my health care! Why would many of you be happy to let your fellow Americans die of preventable or treatable illness because you’re worried about paying a few extra dollars of tax each week?

He is on record as wanting a single payer system.

Do your homework. He said his preference would be a single payer system if he was designing one from scratch. Since we aren’t designing one from scratch, this means we aren’t going for a single payer system. It’s not rocket science dude.

He said it must be deficit neutral. The only announced plan is not.

And how is this Obama’s fault?

Death panels are said to be a lie, yet the Senate fianace committee dropped something that didn’t exist…

The Senate Finance Committee dropped end of life counseling because of the lies. The lies, it seems, were sticking around much better than the truth. Also, you know which Senator introduced the end-of-life counseling amendment? A republican. Death panels is a lie. Period.

He is on record as saying abortions needs to be covered then says that’s a lie.

The lie about abortion is that the government will force people to have them, that the government will make hospitals allow them (consequently forcing all catholic hospitals to close), and that the government will use public money to pay for them. Obama has said the public plan needs to cover reproductive care, but all the bills have wording in them that says no public money shall be used to fund abortions other than ones for cases of rape or incest, or where the life of the mother is threatened.

You shouldn’t believe everything you read, freeinpa.

Funny how countries with nationalized health care pay less than we do. If you are worried about cost, Rusty, you should be begging for rationing.

You know they’re into it, though. We libs claim to be the lascivious ones, but the red states are where the kink is at.
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I’ll bet freeper wants to give Tucker Carlson’s bowtie a twirl right now.

No one said the UK’s health care system was perfect. No one is proposing a complete copy of their health care system either. So really your argument doesn’t mean anything. But don’t mind me; keep beating that strawman. Eventually you might hit a decent argument.

freeinpa:
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A recent statistic found that guests on Fox News shows were overwhemingly (69%) against the Democrats health care plan, with only 11% supporting. Something tells me this is not an accurate depiction of where the public stands on health care. If Fox News’ audience can’t recognize that Fox New is not fair and balanced, then yes, I believe they are stupid.
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I also think people are stupid when they yell at their representatives at town halls to get their government hands out of their Medicare.
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Also, the reason why Fox News has higher ratings is because intelligent people find cable news disgusting.

Because the US is very good at providing advanced treatment for those that can afford it. Something tells me that the foreigners that come to the US for medical treatment have very deep pockets.
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The US is not good at providing a low cost and effective basic level of service to the aggregate populace. Hence everyone pays very high premiums in this country for health care, and much of that cost is shouldered by our industry. What US industry to be competitive? Do something about the cost of health care.
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No one is suggesting we forsake all those advanced treatments and level the playing field across the board. Is your strawman dead yet? Give the guy a rest already.

No, you can do better than that. For example, Mr. I Ran a Business, tell me what you’d do if one of your employees decided to not fix something that was destroying the business. We’ll wait.

Amen, kevpvp. This latest reform is really turning into health-insurance reform, not health care reform. And all this crap about death-panels is just a distraction from the real issues.

I lived in Perth for a while, and I was very impressed with their health care system. I thought they had a great mix of private and public plans. The public plan gave high quality health care for a lower price but you might have to wait for non-essential services. If you wanted something better or you wanted more expensive treatments, then you could buy additional private insurance.

Oregon JC:
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Thanks for the link.
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Where was the Times’ reporting on this crazy situation 15 years ago until now, I wonder?

[...] here to see the original: Lower Than Dirt – Swampland – TIME.com Share [...]

I get my “news” from Joe Klein and Time magazine who alleged (falsely) that Donald Rumsfeld declared that Lt. General David McKiernan would never get another command after McKiernan, allegedly, according to Joe Klein and Time magazine, took an alleged nap in the alleged presence of an alleged Donald Rumsfeld. BTW, Lt. General McKiernan was later promoted to General and took command of U.S. Army Europe, notwithstanding the fact that Rumsfeld was still secretary of defense.

Joe Klein on Obama’s socialized medicine scheme: “especially since any plan that passes will dramatically improve breast cancer treatment for a great many women, especially those currently without insurance, since it emphasizes preventive care.”

Since Joe Klein asserts (with the predictable absence of any evidence (see also Joe Klein’s false assertion that Donald Rumsfeld declared “no more commands for LTG David McKiernan”)) that Obama’s socialized medicine scheme “will dramatically improve breast cancer treatment” then it must be true.

Evidently, Klein and Time magazine believe that surgeons are paid “$50,000″ because their adored clueless socialist alleged it.

Interesting. I’ve noticed that while the bulk of the regulars here are liberal, we all seem to have at least one topic where we’re more right than the others.
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Mr. Nice Guy is big on Israel. Paul Dirks seems to break from the left on health care reform. sgwhiteinfla is less concerned about detainees than many of us. I feel that the death penalty is a valid punishment (or it would be if we could stop convicting so many innocent people).
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If I may ask, why the flat tax? I thought the case was pretty convincing that it’s regressive.

At least with your level of brain-function you won’t have to worry about death-panels, TexteeWextee.

It is certainly not as progressive as what we currently use, but for too long our system has tried to “modify behavior” through the tax code, as well as create more loopholes than straight forward logic.
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We have seen through history the constant use of trying to use a negative motivation (greed) to promote positive behavior. All that happens is people find work arounds to continue what their core motivation is. Trying to use greed (tax breaks, etc.) as an incentive to do “good things” (charity, environmental recycling, etc) does not change the core behavior of society. As such, we just screw it up in another way, while abusing the quick fix gimmicks that tried to manipulate us. This is most commonly seen in the tax code, but evident in many other ways as well.
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It is reminiscent of how the military trains. Quick repetition of exercises to enforce doing a certain thing without question. Not embedding an understanding of principles as to why something may be important, or the ability to discern when one priority may (or should) trump another. Now in the course of battle, with thousands of troops, that philosophy may have more pros than cons. I’d argue however that is not the right approach to build a positive, sustainable society overall.
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A flat tax is simple, and when set at the right number (with appropriate enforcement across the board) gets the true goal of taxes taken care of – paying for the costs of general societal well being. All the other things we’ve tried to manipulate via the tax code should have been done via other means. Yet, as I said before, spilled milk. It is hard to have a society built up through a system that missed a key priority implement that priority retroactively. And I don’t mean the tax code.

Very nice description of the Australian health care system, mgibson.
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But, folks who are on here regularly know that I have said that “reform” period is needed. Not only with healthcare but many other issues as well.
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But, we already have a “public option”, it is called Medicaid. The reform which is needed is to review the requirements and regulations to that program so that the poor in this country who currently do not qualify, can apply for it. The problem with Medicaid is that it is run individually in each State. As Karen laments over and over for her “poor brother”, Texas takes a very conservative approach as to who may and who may not qualify. If Federal intervention is required, since that is where the bulk of the money comes from, then pass legislation that requires specific terms and regulations for Medicaid. This would not take a 1000 page bill. If the State still is not “liberal” enough for you, then move to one that is.
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Further reform; Set up a catastrophic fund, with public dollars. I have said over and over that no one in America should lose everything they’ve worked hard for due to an illness.
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Further reform: Tort limits on medical malpractice cases. The current lottery that people win from insurance funded malpractice cases , keeps not only the premiums high, but also the costs passed on by Physicians and Hospitals. Simply enacting some type of tort reform bill would eliminate this wasteful spending.
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Further reform: Pass legislation by and of itself on insurance reform which prohibits someone from being terminated due to pre-existing conditions, and I would add to it any genetic malformations.
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While I commend you for paying for someone else’s insurance cost through your tax dollars in Australia, I do not believe this is one of the Constitutional “rights” people should be granted. Progressives are hell bent on passing legislation for such things believing that certain “basic rights” should be legislated. I see it as full blown big government. Healthcare rights are not “basic rights” in our constitution. This is why spending in our Government is totally out of control.
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Help the Vets, yes. Help the Senior Citizens, yes. Help even the poor or infirmed, yes. But, that is where the line is drawn for me. I’ve worked very hard for what I have. I do not want a President to take it all away, just to redistribute it out to those who choose to not make an effort to save themselves.

First, you make the erroneous assumption that HC is a right for all workers. Second, if you run a business, you don’t run to the government to fix every problem.

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually,
run out of other people’s money.”

The only reason Fox News comes out ahead in the numbers game is because they preach to the choir. MSNBC and CNN share a pool of viewers and include some programming covering opposite viewpoints.

Another poisonous creep from Fantasyland.

Look pal, be for and against anything your little pin head desires. But try to use actual information occassionally when you justify your oponions. Or don’t bother to justify them.

You are perfecftly entitled to say: “–I am a ninny. I am agaimst xyz because it makes me feel all ooky.”

But quit trotting out the same tired disproven BS, or expect to be abused. My personal tolerance for morons with diarhea of the mouth is fairly low just about now.

Look chump: Three points your simple brain won’t grasp.

1. England is close to the weakest health care system in Europe. Even it outperforms us not only in measures that have a demographical or lifestyle component (life expectancy, infant mortality) but in the measurement known as “deaths per 1000 treatable illnesses”, which does not. Many others, such as France, Germany, and Sweden, have 1/3 to 1/2 the deaths per 1000 treatable illnesses that the US does.

All of them cover everybody and spend less money to boot.

The US system e better at cancer treatment. What it’s NOT better at is keeping people healthy, and keeping them alive. in a cost-effective way.

No go spew your poisonous fantasies some more.

Still hitting the milk duds, hula? Or is that some other brown stuff coming out of your mouth?

How low do you have to be to manipulate the fears of cancer victims with such bald-faced lies?

There’s a special spot in Hell reserved for the people behind that letter.

It would not be “bipartisan” to call out liars as such.

Didn’t you get the memo? Facts don’t matter in a debate, only opinion.

I posted a comment a couple of days ago asking what is a civil liberties “absolutist” and have yet to hear a response (hint). It’s crazy how our political and media elite interpret the constitution.

Civil liberties is an American value. Torture is not.

Cliff, have you not listened to the right wing spread their lies? You know, I was a Republican until this election and I feel they are so out of touch with people it’s unreal. I think Joe just tells it like it is.

Indeed this is the phoniest outrageous story against healthcare… check this out

“But the insurer covered only a small fraction of her radiation treatments, which it considered experimental, leaving the Colliers with a $63,000 bill”.

Yet his opposition to Obama is he is taking over car companies (All those companies should have gone under) banks (never mind the systemic collapse that would have occurred across the board not to mention the rescue is working and tax payers are getting profits).

Never mind Wall street fell on their own making from their ponzi schemes.

Its shocking and immoral what the right wing is doing is spreading lies that will actually kill people through ignorance

[...] fund-raising letter that a friend passed along. Here's how it begins:" More at source: Lower Than Dirt – Swampland – TIME.com __________________ "You can't just listen to Rush Limbaugh and get things done." (B.H.Obama) [...]

[...] The new, new death panel Swampland Via Political Animal: More American women are going to die of breast cancer if you and I surrender to President Obama’s nationalized healthcare onslaught. [...]