In the Arena

Cheney Still Tortured

As Michael Scherer notes below, Dick Cheney has now accused the Obama Administration of politicizing the Justice Department…after his Administration criminalized the Justice Department. But then, we’ve come to expect goofball stuff from the former veep who served, in effect, as President of Foreign Policy in GW Bush’s first term.

The subject here is CIA torture, which Cheney defends. He claims that the newly released documents show that torture elicited valuable information from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah, among others. That’s a major league exaggeration. Apparently some new information was elicited, but there are caveats–Abu Zubaydah had disclosed his most valuable information to the FBI, which used a more civilized and psychologically sophisticated interrogation method; KSM’s new information was marginal and might have been elicited by the FBI methods. The idea that you have to fire weapons, produce electric drills and threaten to kill terrorists’ kds in order to get results is crude, to say the least. But then, so is Cheney’s sense of  the U.S. Constitution (and of democracy, in general).

The most important thing about the CIA Inspector General’s report is its very existence. It was ordered up after internal complaints from CIA staffers that the interrogation program had gone off the rails. It states, unequivocally, that the Cheney-approved torture was a departure from past CIA practice (and international law) and there was an expectation that there would likely be “long-term legal challenges.”

There is an interesting argument to be had here about whether torture is worth it if it produces information that would save American lives. I’d like to see a debate on that subject between Cheney and Ali Soufan, the FBI terrorist interrogator who, as opposed to Cheney, actually knows what he is talking about. But Cheney holds all who dispute him in disdain–it is his most striking personal characteristic– so a debate is unlikely.

The more frustrating argument is over how or whether the abuses catalogued in the IG’s report should be prosecuted. For those of us of a certain age, a Special Prosecutor conjures up memories of half-crazed Inspectors Javert run amok in open-ended investigations of nothing very important (Every Clinton-era investigation, for example). It would be horrible if a Special Prosecutor began rousting around the world of clandestine action, which, of necessity, exists on the borderline of “legal” and “not-so-legal, but entirely necessary.” Even before the latest report was released, the chilling effect–the undue caution induced in clandestine practitioners, the unwillingness to take chances lest their murky doings be exposed by over-eager legal absolutists–may be harming our national security.  The First and Fourth Amendments to the Constitution are not absolute. There has to be a careful balance between individual and public rights–to government information, to personal privacy–and the necessities of national security. It is also likely that criminal prosecutions will yield the CIA equivalent of Lynndie England–and the real miscreants who ordered the torture, like Cheney, will be free to go hunting.

On the other hand, in this case, we’re talking about CIA personnel who violated the already extreme torture rules approved by the Cheney-Bush Administration….those who water-boarded the pathetic, demented Abu Zubaydah 83 times in ways that far exceeded the guidelines laid down by the Cheney-managed Office of Legal Counsel. I’m not sure that we want to have people who threaten naked prisoners with electric drills remain in the service of our country. I would hope that there’s a bright line to be drawn here–prosecution only for those who violated the Justice Department’s rules. I would also hope that this can be done as quickly and quietly as possible, within a very strictly circumscribed area of operations for the special prosecutor, should one be appointed, lest we further cripple an absolutely necessary–if necessarily unsavory–arm of our government.

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  • rustyreturns

    “lest we further cripple an absolutely necessary–if necessarily unsavory–arm of our government”. The Executive Branch, Joe?

    Now I know you are not a great fan of Obama’s Joe Klein, but to tag his administration so soon before he has had the chance to totally F#ck up things in Iraq and Afghanistan, that is so un-patriotic of you!!
    .
    Perhaps water-boarding of our elected officials would be a better results oriented process than future water-boarding of the Islamic terrorists.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    UN pipes in on Holder’s persecution of CIA patriots, says no amnesty for Americans defending Americans, Obama declares victory, then golf.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Obamite Rule The First: Always remember to bash U.S. cops, troops, and the CIA before strutting off to $50,000 golf on Martha’s Junkyard.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Obama orders CIA ops to White House basement, new boss regime to be run by cloned Jedgar Hoover in stirrup pants and sun dress by Labor Day.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Cheney calls spade a spade, says idiots in Holder’s DOJ and Obama’s White House will get more Americans killed, POTUS plans stern golfing.

  • Matt

    Cheney popping out of the woodwork to criticize a sitting president in a time of war? Not very patriotic.

    I’d dare say that Cheney is putting the safety of Americans at risk by making these questionable accusations,

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Pig flu could kill 90,000 young Americans this winter, Obama counters with full DOJ investigation of patriots at CIA for actually working.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Use of term “9-11″ now banned by Justice Department, anyone caught invoking date of Twin Towers, Pentagon planes subject to New Pantherisms.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Holder avoids touchy issue of Clinton-era renditions by avoiding Obama-era renditions, media too busy watching beach to consider war crimes.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Holder calls for exhumation, prosecution of FDR and Truman for carpet bombing of Dresden, says no amount of war can cure rank liberalism.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    How to aid and abet terrorists, brought to you by Skippy AIR HEAD ONE Obama and Eric MARC RICH WHO Holder… http://tiny.cc/mXGAp

  • plukasiak

    The First and Fourth Amendments to the Constitution are not absolute. There has to be a careful balance between individual and public rights–to government information, to personal privacy–and the necessities of national security.
    _
    IMHO, every person who thinks that the fourth amendment protections against unreasonable searches and seizures are not absolute should be locked up indefinitely without access to counsel, and then tortured (i.e. forced to deal with the implications of a “non-absolute” eight Amendment.)
    _
    And the same treatment should be meted out to that person’s family, just for good measure.
    _
    after a few years of torture without recourse to the courts, perhaps people like Joe would be a little less sanguine about basic civil liberties…

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Obama continues to crash in polls, ramps up anti-Bush fervor among die hard despercraps with prosecution of CIA patriots, 9-11 still off DNC gaydar.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Press leaks Obama’s secret war plan against CIA, POTUS and Holder hope to firm up sagging poll ratings in Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, Vermont.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Holder’s retro-active prosecution of Bush CIA field ops bodes ill for FDR, Truman, Ike, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, BHO.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Obama continues slow gutting of CIA field ops ala Carter, the left’s latest version of Frank Church hell bent on unzipping America’s fly.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    In Obamaland, violence and torture and mayhem are the rightful tools of the UAW and SEIU and Teamsters and ACORN and Black Panthers only.

  • rustyreturns

    AHAHAHAHAHAHA huagate, Stop it!!! You are killing me here!!!

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Your argument is enticing. Indeed we could be concerned that over-caution could cause us to miss an piece of intelligence. But lets consider the other side of the same equation. What contsraints should our intelligence operatives operate under if the US code is inadequate to the task? Your answer appears to be “whatever feels right” It’s well known that the OLC guidlines already included instructions to violate the law so they already crossed one line. You’re proposing that we cross an additional line with absolutely no parameters.
    .
    We have seen where that leads and it doesn’t qualify as ‘America”

  • pierogielunaire

    I still would like to hear from one of the esteemed Time correspondents as to why this current investigation doesn’t justify the “I was just following orders” defense. How is Holder’s framing of the investigation (only investigating those who went beyond the illegal directives from the Bush DoJ) not a repudiation of Nürnberg? Anyone? Anyone?

  • piper1

    High Sheriffs,

    19 comments and all but 3 of them utter nonsense from a crazed racist lunatic who goes by “hulagate” and formerly “Question Hillary.” Don’t you think you should do something about this before the obnoxious spam further degrades the quality of this blog?

    Maybe if “hulagate” could condense its gibberish into only 1-2 off-topic rants instead of 15-20?

  • momentomaury

    I say let him post.
    .
    Like cockroaches, the more time folks spend with him, the lest appealing he is. Hula and his ilk are the best thing that happened to progressive politics since the 60s. Go, hula, go!

  • momentomaury

    “Now watch this drive”
    .

  • momentomaury

    Saddam, Cheney insisted on Meet the Press, “had a relationship with al Qaeda.”

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    If for no other reason, this half ass ed weaksauce psuedo endorsement of enforcing the rule of law (as long as its done quietly mind you) was useful as it made hula piss his cowardly lil pants right in front of everybody.

  • momentomaury
  • slowp

    In his statement, did Cheney mention his own sincere hope that he’ll somehow avoid a war crimes indictment himself?

  • stuartzechman

    Joe Klein:
    .
    My apologies in advance for this off-topic remark, but I’d be remiss if I didn’t commend you for your brave attempts to educate the dullard Matthews regarding journalists’ blogging, fact-checking and the role of commentary in that mutually beneficial feedback process.
    .
    I’m so sorry that you had to explain on national television to this purported journalist (he probably doesn’t even have a laptop at home) how the world works in the 21st century.
    .
    As incredible as it is that such an explanation would be necessary, thank you so much for your attempts. Unbelievably, Chris Mattews (or “Tweety”, as we refer to him in the blogosphere) lives in a world in which hosts are technically incapable of actually reading the online work of their guests. Perhaps this phenomenon explains a great deal about the Village, perhaps not.
    .
    In any case, your ad hoc attempt at educating this shockingly uninformed person was very much appreciated, as was the duly given credit to your fact-checking readers. Let us hope that your admirable understanding of current trends foreshadows that of your obviously antediluvian colleagues.
    .
    Thanks so much for reading and considering this, Joe Klein.

  • tc125231

    One can always rely on hulabecile to say the dumbest possible thing. Are all these posts diarrhea of the mouth hula, or are you still gorging on Milk Duds?

  • gysgt213

    “There is an interesting argument to be had here about whether torture is worth it if it produces information that would save American lives.”

    I think this is entirely wrong Joe. This is not an interesting argument because it will eventually bring us back full circle to where we are today. Some future administration will make this same argument to justify their use of torture. And “Torture” is still “illegal.” Period.

  • hellslittlestangel

    I object to the characterization of a criminally rotten human being as a goofball.

  • hellslittlestangel

    I don’t need this j*rkoff to be any more unappealing than he already is. No one is entitled to abuse this site with endless drivel… except, I guess, Michael Scherer.

  • jcapan

    Joe, buddy, you see that this:

    “It is also likely that criminal prosecutions will yield the CIA equivalent of Lynndie England–and the real miscreants who ordered the torture, like Cheney, will be free to go hunting.”

    … doesn’t complement this particularly well:

    “I would also hope that this can be done as quickly and quietly as possible, within a very strictly circumscribed area of operations for the special prosecutor, should one be appointed, lest we further cripple an absolutely necessary–if necessarily unsavory–arm of our government.”

    Especially in light of some of your past statements:

    “In wartime and in espionage, legality has its limits.”

    Or this:

    “I’ve been opposed to prosecuting the Bush miscreants [there's that word again]–for political reasons, mostly. The President has put an awful lot of important domestic and foreign business on the table and this whole issue of what went on under Bush, and is no longer happening now, is a diversion from getting the important stuff done.”

    But hey, I’m just a Wikipedia-leftist, so feel free to ignore me. As an aside, given how wonderfully Obama is handling all that other “important business,” I’d strongly recommend that he should show some cojones on this issue. Maybe, just maybe, he could do a single thing to reward the progressives who put his centrist arse in the big house.

  • plukasiak

    wow! you must buy chapstick by the gross, stuart! ;)

  • shepherdwong

    “There is an interesting argument to be had here about whether torture is worth it if it produces information that would save American lives.”
    .
    Worth what? The honor, dignity and Constitution of the United States of America? If you had any shame you’d be able to understand what a disgusting bargain you’ve made for the sake of your own self-conceit and pathological centrism.

  • ohiolib

    If hula would limit himself to 2-3 posts, i would laugh and move on. As it is, he’s spamming the boards, aka, acting like a 4-year who’s ticked he can’t have a new toy. So just try to laugh at hula, and remind yourself he was probably brainwashed to believe that all democrats are actually communist satan worshipers

  • spob
  • shepherdwong

    I realize now that I’ve been foolish. Since you don’t care about those things, the other consequence of our torture policy is the loss of our credibility and respect with everyone, everywhere (that can come in pretty handy when it’s your own people in someones else’s hands). How many American lives is global respect and credibility worth (and how many people do you think we’ve killed for those very assets)? Pragmatic enough for you?

  • stuartzechman

    Paul Lukasiak:
    .
    If I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes, I wouldn’t have believed it either.
    .
    Watch the video (if you can stomach Tweety).
    .
    It’s incredible, he deserves praise, end of story.

  • kevpvp

    Piper….agreed. What do these people do for a living that they can try and take over all of these blogs with their nonsensical posting? They may as well just hyperlink over to Newsmax and call it a day.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Obama accidentally waterboards himself on Martha’s Junkyard undertow, asks Holder to prepare sea crimes charges against Mrs. Paul’s, Shamu.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Holder’s Justice thugs ignore CIA ops rebuttal of IG report, Obama cadres adopt ACORN, CBS, Alinsky smear tactics… http://tiny.cc/2dNf7

  • buzzorhowl

    Thank you! Of course the first and fourth amendments are absolute! “Congress shall make no law…” that’s pretty absolute.

    I’m so glad someone else had already taken the time to post this before I got here. Again, thank you.

  • http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com lawyermommy

    “I would also hope that this can be done as quickly and quietly as possible, within a very strictly circumscribed area of operations for the special prosecutor, should one be appointed, lest we further cripple an absolutely necessary–if necessarily unsavory–arm of our government.”

    I strongly agree with the quote from Mr. Klein’s post above. We cannot afford to cripple the CIA.

    Yes, in order to make sure the wrongs are redressed and those culpable punished, an investigation is needed. However, we should not have a full blown politically motivated driven investigation.

    The objective should be to make sure such abuses do not occur in the future or at least do not occur with the full support of the government (as it did in the Bush Administration).

    As I stated on a previous post here, Cheney’s continuing defense of the indefensible is baffling. At this time, with what we know, most right thinking people do not support the vicious tactics used for interrogation. What if it worked as Cheney constantly avers and they got some so called “good” information!! Does that make it right??

    http://theblindspotsofgod.wordpress.com/

  • maurice2u

    “Maybe, just maybe, he could do a single thing to reward the progressives who put his centrist arse in the big house.”
    .
    Now this is not an endorsement of any particular action or inaction by the President, nor an attempt to insult you Jcapan, but quite frankly ….. why should he?
    .
    I mean, to be honest, you made a choice. It is not like he presented himself as anything other than the pragmatic, centrist he is (read his book from pre-election). You could always have had McCain/Palin if Obama/Biden is so offensive to you.
    .
    Elections in this country are almost always about compromise and who you like more, or who you dislike the least. There is rarely (if ever) the “everything I wished for” vs. the “bane of evil” candidate. That is the nature of the imperfect system we call democracy, for better or for worse.

  • http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/743666-cheneys-statement-cia-report-documents-released-8.html#post10464117 Cheney’s statement on CIA report/documents released today – Politics and Other Controversies – Page 8 – City-Data Forum

    [...] From Joe Klein: "The most important thing about the CIA Inspector General's report is its very existence. It was ordered up after internal complaints from CIA staffers that the interrogation program had gone off the rails. It states, unequivocally, that the Cheney-approved torture was a departure from past CIA practice (and international law) and there was an expectation that there would likely be "long-term legal challenges."" He also makes this observation that I agree with wholeheartedly: "I'm not sure that we want to have people who threaten naked prisoners with electric drills remain in the service of our country." Cheney Still Tortured – Swampland – TIME.com [...]

  • http://blog.bloodstar.org/?p=3232 Bloodstar » Quote for the Day

    [...] Joe Klein: Dick Cheney has now accused the Obama Administration of politicizing the Justice Department…after his Administration criminalized the Justice Department. [...]

  • pcwalt

    I just can’t figure out: do you really mean this, but it doesn’t apply to the Democrats going abroad to stir up resistance to Bush and his administration within weeks of the 9/11 attacks? Or is this an attempt at irony, as though Bush et al were claiming that all who disagreed with them were therefore anti-American, while all considered the actions in Afganistan and Iraq as wars — and the same standards should apply to the Democrats while they say the actions are not wars?
    .
    (Ummm, you DO realize that the Obama administration has said that this is NOT a time of war, don’t you?)

  • http://jackrroo.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/my-version-of-qotd/ My Version of QOTD « Accustomed to a Smoother Ride

    [...] the Justice Department…after his Administration criminalized the Justice Department,” Joe Klein via*** The [...]

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