In the Arena

Public Opining

The debate over health care reform remains surreal. We are now focused on President Obama’s (sort of) unchanged position on the public option and the late-blooming possibility of health care co-ops as a replacement for said option. This is a foolish diversion from the actual work of health care reform–not as foolish as the Republican “death panels” and “gummint takeover,” but debilitating all the same. Some facts:

1. The public option always was something of a sideshow. It would be available only to those buying their health insurance through the new system of  “Exchanges”–that is, health care superstores where individuals and small businesses would combine to establish the same sort of purchasing clout that major companies (like, say, Time Warner) have in dealing insurance companies.

2. The aforementioned clout would force insurance companies to clean up their act and lower their prices. In effect, the Exchanges would accomplish much of what the public option is intended to do. Smart conservatives fear that the establishment of exchanges would be the first step toward a single-payer system. They’re right. The second step would be allow companies that already offer health insurance to join the exchanges. If everyone eventually joins the exchanges, the public bargaining power against the private insurers would be near-total. (And if the government replaced the current employer based coverage with a system of progressive health insurance tax credits, you would have–voila!–a single payer system.)

3. So the exchanges are crucial to health reform. Can’t get there without them.  Also crucial: regulating the insurance companies so they have to take all comers at common rates. And: expanding health insurance coverage to as many of the 47 million uninsured as humanly possible. It would also be nice, for cost control purposes, if every doctor in the country were paid a salary rather than fees for services performed, but that’s impossible for the moment–although a good place to start would be Medicare.

4. You will notice that the public option is not listed among those elements crucial to health reform. You may also notice that I haven’t mentioned health co-ops yet. That’s because they’re even less relevant than the public option. The purpose of a co-op would be for individuals and small businesses to gather together to create market power to buy health care at the best prices…but that’s essentially what the Exchanges would do. But, you say, the co-ops would eliminate the need for profits–well, there are plenty of state Blue Cross and Blue Shield plans that are not-for-profit and they’re rife with the same problems as for-profit insurance schemes. Health co-ops, like credit unions, would be harmless, but essentially marginal to the big health reform issues.

5. Today’s noise from Pelosi, Rockefeller, Feingold et al is just that…noise. Every one of them will vote for health care reform, public option included or not. The only potential Democratic defectors come from the Blue Dog wing of the party, where the nasty demagoguery of the current debate may force some to vote against the plan for political self-preservation in heavily conservative districts. The irony here is that the elimination of the public plan–distorted by Republicans into a “government takeover”–would make it much more likely that swing-vote Democrats could vote for reform.

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  • deconstructiva

    …so are you saying that public options really don’t have much to do with HC reform? Or they’re just a distraction?

  • James, Los Angeles

    The public option is not a sideshow. Without public option, there will be no health insurance reform. Again you demonstrate your lack of understanding of the issue, much like the FISA issue, and make yourself out a fool for pontificating on issues about which you are supremely unqualified to opine.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Every one of them will vote for health care reform, public option included or not.

    I know it’s helpful for you to believe that but I’m not as sanguine……..
    .
    I’ve said before that I that it seem that proponents of the public option seem to be motivated more by the desire to punish insurers for their avarice than anything else, but corporations, like governments or any other large collective organization, are incapable of ‘feeling’ guilt. It is therefore incumbent upon us to design a system wherein naked self-interest and the public interest intersect.

  • destor23

    I agree that the story is a distraction if the story is that “Obama changed his mind.” Who cares? But it’s not a distraction if the story is that most of Obama’s supporters want a public option that would give them a choice between a government plan and their current insurer and why such an option is important.

    If it’s a flip flop story, then you’re right, we shouldn’t bother. But why not make the story about what Obama’s base wants and whether or not he can give it to them?

  • tc125231

    Mr. Klein, you are usually very perceptive regarding international affairs, but you remain naive regarding domestic ones.

    The people opposing the “public option” also oppose health care remorm. They also oppose effective regulation of that industry.

    Nate Silver may be correct –there may not be enough votes for the public option –primarily because of the nine (9) votes he thinks are swung by the insurance industry.

    However, there is no reason why people such as Baucus and Conrad should have a free ride. They are representing neither their parties nor their constituents.

    They are representing their “funders”.

    Giving in on this as unimportant reminds me of Chamberlain’s attitude –what are a few Czechs vs. “peace in our time”?

    The problem is, it didn’t buy peace. Giving in easily here won’t buy meaningful health care reform.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Not just Obama’s base, but something like 70-80 percent of Americans, according to recent polls. Can a 60-seat Dem majority, plus a popular president, plus the experience of every other industrialized nation in the world, plus the need to save hundreds of billions of dollars, compel a rational policy response? Or is our discourse and system too broken to handle it?

  • freeinpa

    The story isn’t Obama changed his mind. He concluded the “Change you can believe in” was him not getting a second term.

    And it is Obama supporters that remain that may support a public option and that number is a shrinking minority. Ask AARP who sold out their members, many of which were Obama supporters. Since July 1 they have lost a reported 60,000 members (over 1200/day).

    Greatest words to fear: I’m from the government an I’m here to help you.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Why not put a public option in the bill and let the congress go on record voting against it?
    .
    Joe may be right about some congresspeople just running their mouths, he may have the wrong guess at which ones.

  • bitterpill8

    I am astonished at your knee capping of the public option. You seem to think Baucus and Conrad can roll Congress. And Pelosi, Rockefeller and Feingold count for nothing. Are you being fed this bile by sources in the WH? So what do Progressives do: roll over and play dead?

    This post shows Joe Klein at his worst: seemingly all knowing and demonstrating contempt for the DFH side of the Democratic Party.

  • sy2d

    1. The public option always was something of a sideshow. It would be available only to those buying their health insurance through the new system of “Exchanges” …

    2. … In effect, the Exchanges would accomplish much of what the public option is intended to do.

    3. [Rather,] the exchanges are crucial to health reform. Can’t get there without them. …

    4. You will notice that the public option is not listed among those elements crucial to health reform.

    Some sideshow Joe. Check your math next time.

  • http://www.petalumafirst.com daveraves

    Helpful article. Thanks. (despite snarly comments)
    I’ve found this whole public debate to be fairly inaccessible, with terms tossed around that most folks don’t understand. We often get the mischaracterization before we get a real definition.

  • James, Los Angeles

    Here is a nice graphic that sorts out the terminology that journalists have been thus far incapable of explaining, in their laziness and self-serving mediocrity.

    Matthew Yglesias » Health Insurance Reform Flowchart

  • homerhk

    can someone explain why the exchanges won’t perform as JK has indicated? I thought the one of the points about the public option is that it would be able to negotiate from stronger position. Isn’t that what the exchanges do?

  • supradeepnarayana

    I got one confirmation: You are a big suck up to the people in government. Just like you suck up to the Bush administration before Iraq war and now you are doing it again with the people who get most from health insurance companies.
    I can say this much, your space on time is noise and what a waste of time and energy you and your space are.

  • sy2d

    The other Klein’s take is is far more compelling:

    The problem, I think, is that there is a tendency to understand heath-care reform as an equal negotiation in which all sides want a deal, and you can game out various bargaining stratagems. But health-care reform is not a negotiation. It’s a campaign. Reformers wants a deal, even as some differ on its precise shape. The opposition wants to kill the deal entirely. And that gives the opponents a lot more power to say “no.” “No” isn’t their fallback position. It’s their position. The supporters — if they’re not sociopaths of some sort — actually do want to extend health-care coverage to 40 million people and regulate the insurance industry and create out-of-pocket caps and make life better for millions and millions of people. That makes it hard to say “no.” Being a decent person turns out to be a terrible weakness. And the pressure is even greater because the history of this stuff is that you don’t get a deal at the end of the day. Failure isn’t an unlikely outcome. It’s the default.

    The reason, crudely speaking, is that time runs out. With every week, and every month, that drags by, health-care reform becomes a bit less popular. At this point, disapproval of the president’s plan — if not of his plan’s ideas — outpolls approval. That’s a function of the legislative process. Of stories about congressional infighting and of anti-change campaigns mounted by the opposition and of the risk aversion of members of Congress. Almost all major domestic legislation follows the same path of public approval giving way to public disapproval.

    That makes it even easier for conservative Democrats and the mythical moderate Republicans to abandon the effort. And thus the effort gets abandoned. What usually happens next is that the opposition wins the following election and reformers spend the next 15 years lamenting all the deals they didn’t take, and the country ends up with 10 million more uninsured, and 100,000 more needlessly dead, and so on.

    That’s not to say people shouldn’t push on the public option. They should! But the strategy needs to be appropriate to the context. This is a campaign for the public option, not a negotiation. Winning it will require persuading the key votes to change their mind, either by offering them other inducements in the bill or applying direct and aggressive political pressure (identifying a lot of viable primary challengers and creating a credible promise of funds, for instance). Trying to say “no” for longer than they can will simply result in reformers losing everything they want, and opponents getting exactly what they demanded.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/08/the_liberal_revolt.html

  • rose83

    Demonizing the supporters of a public option isn’t going to help anything. There are people here better qualified than me to explain the benefits of a public option, but almost everyone I’ve heard who is committed to it – including that noted radical and anti-corporate activist Donna Brazile – talks about reducing costs. That is the point of the public option.

    Personally that’s why I think mandates are essential. Clearly there needs to a maximum payment provision, but without mandates these proposals risk fueling rising health care costs.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    I wonder what private insurers Klein has investments in?

  • constantweader

    When you take the side of a handful of Senators & their insurance executive backers against the interests & well-being of the American middle class, you should examine your ethics & shut up.

    Oh, BTW, even No. 1 Co-op Exchange backer Kent Conrad admitted to John Roberts this morning that the co-ops wouldn’t bring down healthcare costs.

    The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com

  • shepherdwong

    “The aforementioned ["Exchange"]clout would force insurance companies to clean up their act and lower their prices.”
    .
    How, exactly?
    .
    I’m tempted to go with James, LA, that you’re out of your depth on policy here (you’re no Howard Dean or Paul Krugman) and regurgitating what you’ve been told by your “centrist” buddies. If you can show how “Exchanges” will reduce costs as effectively as Medicare, I’ll eat my words.

  • rainydayinterns

    We refer to folks such as Ann Coulter, Bill O’Reilly, and Sarah Palin as the “Fright Right.” These demagogues of the far right offer nothing but falsehoods and fear in the guise of “dialog.” These non-politicians bring nothing to the table in terms of solutions. Their tactic is to inject FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt), their ideology is simple-minded, and their agenda is no more than pure self-aggrandizement.

    However, to ignore them in the hope that their ideas will be seen for the follies that they are is a mistake. As any good gardener knows, weeds must be pulled or they will choke out the fragile seedlings before they have a chance to establish their roots.

    To put our money where our mouth is, we would like to take this opportunity to announce that starting in September, we will be adding a new section called RainyDayPolitics to RainyDayMagazine. We plan to stand up, speak out, and be counted. We urge our readers to engage, add to the dialog, and help weed out the crap…grass.

    http://www.rainydaymagazine.com/RDM2009/Home/August/Week2/RDMHomeAug1509.htm#CounteringTheFrightRight

  • freeinpa

    And of course your privacy would be better protected with the government option

    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9A4PTO82&show_article=1

  • shepherdwong

    One more thing. If you strip out the public option then personal mandates go with it:

    “That’s certainly how it will be framed by the right — and I can’t see how anyone could argue with them. Insurance “reform” will end up being defined as the government acting in concert with the insurance companies to force Americans to buy their expensive product — and it will play perfectly into the right wing populist argument that’s gaining currency. Without a public plan as a low cost option, this thing looks a lot less like reform and a whole lot more like a shake down. I could see the new Newtie Populist Republicans using that against all these Blue Dogs and Corporate Senators in their districts next time and taking them out. Personally, I’d be hard pressed to say they were wrong.
    Digby

    .
    Then the whole thing unravels.

  • shepherdwong

    You haven’t has any “privacy” since George Bush, Dick Cheney, Jay Rockefeller, Pete Hoekstra, Joe Klein and Barack Obama shredded the 4th Amendment with FISA “reform”. For that matter, corporate inc. already knows where you buy your underwear and your porn.

  • winski

    Dear Joe:

    Reading tea leaves is not a real good part of your act, is it??

  • kryptik1

    Even Kent Conrad, the biggest booster of the co-op plan, essentially admits that the only way co-ops might cut costs is the idea that ‘more competition = lesser costs’. Nevermind the lack of bargaining power and muscle co-ops have traditionally had, which is likely not going to help drum down costs OR improve any actual access to care.

  • lupercal5

    actually, joe might be wrong on the causal relationship between the exchanges, the public option and lowered costs, but he’s basically right that if you do end up with an extremely strong public option but an extremely weak exchange, the public option won’t have much of an effect.
    .
    so yeah, a public option is important, but getting a strong option is even more important and we shouldn’t disregard that.
    .
    but im in strong favor of us progressives protesting even louder. we need to show up at those obama rallies and make our voices heard. Otherwise, wait for another significant piece of legislation to be scrapped up. we gotta make sure that we don’t just complain online for like 2 days or so. it needs to be grassroots and sustained.

  • freeinpa

    And what do you call Matthews, Olbermann, Schultz, Maddow, Gibson, Sanchez, Campbell, Cohen, Dowd, Krugman, Totenberg (space prohitis tthe full inclusion) etc. After being in the desert of politics for over 40 years, the conservatives took a page from its liberal friends. If they learned FUD from anyone it was the Democrats.

    The media has been dominated by liberals under the guise of being non-partisan. Now that conservatives have voices to strike back liberals are whining and crying. With all of the “popularity” of the above lib broadcasters, the FOX line-up in one show has bigger audiences than the most celebrated libs do combined. But then liberals will just say they are only stupid people that follow these targets by liberal hate-mongers..

    Here is a reality check for you. That attitude is exactly what is sinking health care reform for the 2nd time. Who really is stupid?

    Robert Novak R.I.P.

  • lupercal5

    forceful argument indeed. but liberals and progressives need to use this PO issue to garner support and get involved in the grassroots campaign. show up at obama townhalls. make some serious noise not just online but be the effective counter argument to those conservative thugs.

  • freeinpa

    So you are ok with more breaches?

  • freeinpa

    lupercal5

    Uh, show up at Obama townhalls? Seriously? Did you see one recent townhall when he was begging for a question from the opposition. And none was to be found. Only the believers are allowed at the Messiah’s outings.

    The Post Office should run as smoothly as an Obama townhall meeting.

  • plukasiak

    I’ve said before that I that it seem that proponents of the public option seem to be motivated more by the desire to punish insurers for their avarice than anything else,
    _
    this is pure BS. You’ve got it completely backwards.
    _
    The public option is supported because it makes economic sense — the private insurance companies are portrayed as villains because they are opposed to the public option.
    _
    Bottom line is that the public option isn’t really that popular among genuine progressives (as opposed to “access” progressives) to begin with. Genuine progressives support some form of single payer — “public option” only exists as an alternative because George Soros put millions in seed money into the astroturf organization, HCAN — and HCAN’s sole purpose was to keep single-payer off the table.

  • plukasiak

    sure.
    _
    First off, you need to understand that Joe doesn’t know what he’s talking about. They aren’t, as Joe would have you believe, a purchasing co-operative. They are actually nothing more than a government run “marketplace” where individual health care consumers can comparison shop between insurance plans, while the insurance industry and health care providers engage in legal price-fixing.
    _
    additionally, the “exchanges” that Joe envisions (as well as the co-ops) have a considerable history — and a consistent history of failure. (see http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-geyman/exchanges-co-ops-and-cop_b_261244.html)

  • carotexas1

    Joe I will ask you the same question Anthony Weiner asked Joe Scarborough this morning.

    What do health insurance companies bring to the table? What service do they perform?

    Joe Scarborough could not answer and asked him to come back so he could get answers from someone.

  • shepherdwong

    Spot on with Klein’s liberal-loathing take the public option. If the DFHs are fer it, it must be wrong. It’s pathological.
    .
    Not sure how I get how Soros or HCAN were able to do anything to keep off the table a single-payer policy that’s been permanently locked in a trunk by the entire Beltway establishment for generations.

  • freeinpa

    Soros-HCAN

    You got to love it when liberals eat their own.

    carotexas1: The same question could be asked of th epublic option

  • Tom in The Swamp

    Or to put it in terms even an MBA might be able to understand, what added value does a for-profit insurance company bring to the process of paying for health care that justifies 15% higher overhead than Medicare?

    And to foreclose some dummy idealogues’ inevitable talking point, no, shareholder dividends and bonuses to millionaire executives don’t count.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    What do health insurance companies bring to the table? What service do they perform?
    .
    I find it useful to compare Insurance companies to S&L’s. In a perfect “Free Market” paradise, people would save up their money and then when they needed health care, they could pay for it out-of-pocket.
    Insurance companies allow people to prepay for their health care and as an added value allow people to withdraw from the pool as necessary even if they haven’t yet paid in fully. For this service they draw about 15% a year in profit (not to mention miscellaneous expenses in the form of salaries and benefits for their employees.)
    You can argue at length as to whether they’re monopolistic gougers or not but if you don’t think they provide value, you are free to remain uninsured.

  • Art Pepper

    So we can’t talk about single payer because it’s “off the table.”

    Now we’re supposed to stop talking about a public option because of something that Sebelius may or may not have said, and because Baucus is fully bought-and-paid-for and Conrad is a dope.

    And all this for the purpose of getting Grassley’s vote when Grassley has already said that no matter what it is, he’s agin’ it.

    I predict the demise of the “Exchange” by the 1st of September, on the grounds that “moderate” (ahem) Republicans are opposed.

  • carotexas1

    I found this clip from Think Progress from this morning’s show. If anyone can get the clip of the whole thing it is worth watching.

    http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/18/scarborough-takeover/

  • freeinpa

    Soros is undermining one group of liberals, Obama is selling out another, Demo Senators are running for cover….

    Who is actually driving the liberal clown car? Libs here have been blaming conservatives for fear mongering but it seems the libs have met the enemy and its them.

  • dollared

    Joe, this really is a lot better than your last post. But it is naive and not based on the available facts:

    Wall Street has a much clearer view: As the month has waxed with doubts about the public option, the stock prices of the major private insurance companies have shot up: http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2009/08/public-option-versus-coops-the-market-test.html

    Wall Street is clear: exchanges, coops, regulation, all will be ineffective in lowering the unnecessary 20% cost burden/tax the insurance companies place on all Americans.

    So your argument is unconvincing and based on the facts. Wall Street believes the public option is essential to forcing the insurance companies to compete on price. And Digby is right that the mandate will not work without the public plan.

    Why is this so, so urgent? I’ll follow with another post.

  • carotexas1

    Paul what is wrong with the government doing this same thing for less cost?

  • Tom in The Swamp

    I think this is the whole thing.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/#32459067

  • kirby2800

    The issue, as I see it, is whether we continue to pay an ever-increasing and exorbitant price for health care to for-profit entities or whether we claim our right to effective health care at affordable costs.

    The taxpayer subsidizes the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical and medical device companies through research grants. It’s ours.

    Health care is a right, not a privilege or something fewer and fewer can afford. This is a fight between the little guy and the robber barons… again.

  • plukasiak

    you don’t understand the difference between savings and insurance.
    _
    When you save money, you build collateral.
    When you buy insurance, you don’t build anything.*
    _
    Insurance is a form of gambling — its “hedging your bets”. Its such a high risk investment with a potentially very high rate of return that its no better than playing the slots.
    _
    Saving money isn’t a gamble (as long as its guaranteed by the Fed.

  • dollared

    Why must we do the public option now? We are losing the global competitiveness battle, and our U6 total unemployment/underemployment of 16+% will make us all much, much poorer – unless we do something about our national waste, now. Public option is merely a baby step, but it is a step in the right direction. For once.

    Look, it’s really quite simple: we no longer can afford to piss away 20% of our national income, year in and year out, on hidden taxes and disastrous policies. We could do that when we were the richest nation in the world, but now we’re the world’s greatest debtor.

    So stop fooling around with the little things. We need single payer with cost controls, but I’ll settle for the strongest damn public plan around. We need to spend less on health care, and we’ll never get there with Full Insurance For All But No Cost Controls. We just get poorer. And we need to end the employer mandate. Now. The auto companies employ more people in Canada because the employers don’t pay for health care there. It’s a huge international competitiveness problem. Stop it. Now.

    Next, we need to stop pissing away $800B a year on Homeland Security, whatever that is, and Defense, which we know is offense. Cut it 5%/year until the next Bush is elected.

    Next, we need to stop pissing $700B/year away on foreign oil. We need real, aggressive mileage targets. Oh, did I mention that it would make our cars more competitive in international markets? And lower pollution? Why are we pissing around?

    Finally, we need to save all this money because we need to spend it on EDUCATION. The only way we will compete in the world economy is to raise our collective education level. In one generation.

    Oxen need to be gored, Joe (Kent and Max and Kathleen). Get the hell out of the way.

  • plukasiak

    eliminating the public option (or having a weak public option that isn’t big enough to negotiate real savings) also means that the American taxpayer is subsidizing insurance company profits — because subsidies for lower income people are an essential aspect of the mandates as well — and without a low-cost public option available, those subsidies will go right into the pockets of the parasites.

  • Art Pepper

    Awesome!
    .
    Scarborough: Medicare is a threat to the American way of life!
    .
    Mika: Hmm.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Paul what is wrong with the government doing this same thing for less cost?
    .
    Not a thing. I just don’t think it will lead to as much savings as people assume.
    United healthcare pulls in as profit ~10% of revenue or 8 billion/Yr. That’s a lot of money but it’s only about $32 per American. That won’t buy very much additional health care for the uninsured.

  • shepherdwong

    You’re worried about breaches. I swear, if you people were any more clueless about real risks and dangers, you’d need to be fitted with helmets and elbow pads.

  • shepherdwong

    It only “seems” that way to you because you’re a political idiot. The enemy of the Republic is corporatist “conservatives” whether Republican or Democrat. It always is.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Notice that Joke Line doesn’t engage in any attempt to actually describe the public option or its usefullness on the exchange. He really doesn’t understand that without cheaper competition and with mandates for insurance that Insurance companies will have no incentive at all to lower their premiums. Just because they are making more money doesn’t mean anything. The free market thrives on greed and so the one thing reform will not do with out a public option is curb health insurance inflation. So in the end many if not most of those 47 milllion people without health insurance still won’t be able to afford it AND premiums will keep rising at an alarming rate.
    .
    That is just a simple fact of the issue and yet Joe Klein doesn’t even have a basic grasp of it. Even Ezra Klein who has a very measured approach on health care reform and whom Joe is basically cribbing from here acknowledges that while incrimental change is better than no change that with out a public option in the exchanges you still won’t see the prices driven down. I guess Joe never got that far into any of the other Klein’s posts though.

  • rose83

    Paul Dirks, so why do you think American health care is so much more expensive than health care in any other industrialized country?
    .
    I agree that profit is not the core issue. But the real problem is that a health care system controlled by private interests simply cannot compete financially with a system controlled by the government, with its vastly superior economies of scale and fewer bureaucratic burdens. (I know that last point contradicts CW, but the empirical evidence is clear)

  • kathy

    Is Obama just being crazy like a fox here? He has now successfully gotten the Republicans to say “well no, we won’t vote for coops either,” making it possible for Obama to say “well in that case, we’ll just go back to the public option.” Non?

  • kathy

    Jonathan Alter has an excellent column about this up at Newsweek: http://www.newsweek.com/id/212162

  • shepherdwong

    Oui. (c’est la guerre).

  • stuartzechman

    Dirks:

    it seem[s] that proponents of the public option seem to be motivated more by the desire to punish insurers for their avarice than anything else

    If, by “punish insurers”, you mean find a way to escape from paying them, yet afford medical care, then yes.
    .
    I don’t doubt that there are plenty of folks who are angry at corporate/elite control of discourse, the political system, the financial system, and health care, and who would like to see these players suffer economic pain along with the rest of us –that’s most likely true (and should not be the basis for what should be rational policy decisions).
    .
    But for just as many, the public option is a matter of getting out of a systemically bad and insecure relationship with opposite-interested parties –kind of like how we in Manhattan would like to have another choice in cable companies than solely Time-Warner (or doing without).
    .
    It’s odd that you don’t see this relatively obvious preference in the expressions of disappointment that this choice, i.e. a way out of relationships with companies that routinely screw their individual customers, won’t be available to everybody who feels (reasonably) insecure in their dealings with insurers to whom they are handcuffed by the current system.

  • shepherdwong

    Good point about taking the moral high ground on reform ending health discrimination but this is wrong (and written by someone who’s health insurance is paid for): “The well-meaning woman who left a message at my office saying that she wouldn’t demonstrate in support of any bill without a public option has lost her perspective […] let’s not pretend that any of the real costs (and incentivized cost savings) are discernible now.”
    .
    Millions of people are being hosed by ridiculously expensive and basically useless “health care insurance” (in reality, it’s medical bankruptcy insurance) and that would change almost instantly with a national public option with drastically reduced administrative costs, salaries and bonuses for finding ways to deny care to paid customers. And again, simply forcing people to buy their over-priced crap is a political non-starter.

  • stuartzechman
  • Matt

    Not much difference between a “public option” and “co-ops.” They accomplish the same thing. Certainly not as monumental as Obama shifting from, say, single-payer to co-ops.

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • shepherdwong

    “But the real problem is that a health care system controlled by private interests simply cannot compete financially with a system controlled by the government, with its vastly superior economies of scale and fewer bureaucratic burdens.”
    .
    It’s also nearly impossible to use it to implement better health care policies, e.g., an intensive focus on primary care, wellness, nutrition and lifestyle. Another reason our costs are so much higher than other industrialized countries is because, comparatively, we’re eating massive quantities of sh!t while sitting around on our @sses. If we don’t change that, we’re going down no matter how we rearrange the deck chairs.

  • stuartzechman

    If you don’t like how private insurers treat you, i.e. throwing administrative roadblocks up to paying your claims every chance they can get, then there’s a huge difference between buying insurance from them at a “co-op” and buying insurance from a government-run plan whose sole purpose is to pay out claims without administrative hoop-jumping, and whose customer satisfaction rate should be (and could be) measured against Medicare’s.

  • freeinpa

    I am the political idiot who could have told you weeks ago that no matter how much smoke liberals blew up the electorate shorts, Obama’s idea would fail. It is a great chuckle to see all of the liberals whining and crying that the common folk just don’t understand their superior intellect that will bankrupt the country.

    Amazing that “corporatist” are the enemy of the republic since they provide the employment which supplies income and taxes that makes this economy grow.

  • freeinpa

    The markets are a weighing machine. When the government screws with the free market the markets say future growth is limited and the stock prices adjust downward. Low growth companies regardless of the sector they are in have lower price/earnings multiples as the investor won’t pay as much for lower growth.

    Check the stock movement of the drug company, Merck when HillaryCare was the great idea of the day.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=MRK&t=my

  • shepherdwong

    OK, I stand corrected. Small business accounts for at least half of employment, income, taxes and economic growth so you’re really just a general, run-of-the-mill idiot.

  • freeinpa

    Got a flash for you. The taxpayer subsidizes every industry from the drug companies to oil companies, to farmers, to water companies and on and on.

    Someone mentioned the net profit margin (NPM) of these gougers in the insurance industry to be about 15%. If somebody was going to gouge somebody would you stop at 15%.? Here are some others.

    Beverages-Brewers 26.2% NPM
    Application Software 22.80% NPM
    Information Servies 17% NPM
    Industrial Metals 16.6% NPM
    Network & Communication 16.4%
    Ag Chemicals 15.10%

    Are these industries gouging us? Should we protest Starbucks for its outrageous prices Or Google? Exxon Mobil who is always accused of gauging by libs has a NPM of 10% in 2007. Exxon Mobil had a net income of $19.8 billion- quite a sum! They paid $64.7 billion in taxes or over 3 times net income. Now that is gouging!

    Just because a company that takes on risk to develop a business and profits from it doesn’t make them evil. You make not like it but its still not evil. And sorry HC is not a RIGHT

  • freeinpa

    “its troops are whiny”"

    This was the only part of his article that was actually true. The entire rest of his column was the proof of it.

    To believe that you will get lower costs, better coverage and add tens of millions of people to the coverage while growing the help care work force to service it, is a fool’s supposition. Oh and reduce the deficit without raising taxes.

    Can you turn lead in to gold while you are at it?

  • 53_3

    Well, freetopissonyourself, look at the rest of the stock market.
    .
    Betcha don’t wanna, huh?
    .
    Unlike you, they voted with their bucks, chump.

  • 53_3

    Freetopissonyourself:
    .
    Who says, you? Sorry, dumfock.
    .
    I consider it to be the “life” part of this well known phrase:
    .
    “life, liberty, and happiness”
    .
    Now, whereverthehell did that phrase come from?
    .
    jeopardy.wav
    jeopardy.wav
    jeopardy.wav

  • freeinpa

    Yes, its priceless. He complains about Bush’s Drug bill being a bonanza for Drug Companies and how it cost twice the original estimates.

    He conveniently left this out:

    At a House Ways and Means Committee hearing, Rep. Rahm Emanuel (D-Ill.) taunted Treasury Secretary John W. Snow about the rhetorical discrepancies.

    “If you’re looking for a crisis, I would suggest you look at a crisis that was self-made in just last year, because the crisis exists in what’s happened to Medicare by weighing it down,” Emanuel said. “Those of us who told you it was going to cost twice as much were right.”

    NEWS FLASH RAHM: EVERY GOVERNMENT ENTITLEMENT ENDS UP COSTING MULTIPLES OF ORIGINAL COSTS

  • 53_3

    Considering just how irrelevant the Average American’s opinion (that 63%) is in this particular HCR round, maybe the fact that Bill has strengthened and turned northward is in fact somehow encouragning:
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/weather/08/18/severe.storm/index.html
    .
    The question is:
    .
    Which bill?

  • jcapan

    Shep:

    “Another reason our costs are so much higher than other industrialized countries is because, comparatively, we’re eating massive quantities of sh!t while sitting around on our @sses. If we don’t change that, we’re going down no matter how we rearrange the deck chairs.”

    Excellent pt. Every time I visit the US from 90% rail-thin J-town, I’m stunned to find all the fat arses blocking my path. Anyway, good to see a fellow liberal speak up for personal accountability.

  • 53_3

    freetopissonyourself:
    .
    I’m sure that this just couldn’t be your peers’ fault, now could it?
    .
    http://moneynews.newsmax.com/streettalk/bailout_total_trillions/2008/11/24/154693.html
    .
    Ahyuh! Ahyuh! Ahyuh!
    .
    What a fockup…

  • freeinpa

    Actually the top !% of the earners accounts for just over 40% of the taxes while the bottom 95% account for less than 40%. So you simple math is lacking as you reasoning through the HC discussion.

    I guess that makes you a special idiot

  • 53_3

    Anyway, like I said, I have nothing really constructive to contribute to the HCR charade, but well, I can’t deny that chawing on a wingnut or two hasn’t been fun.
    .
    They always did have this to say about wingnuts:
    .
    Crunch all you want, we’ll make more!
    .
    Later…

  • freeinpa

    I am sure you had a point in that besides your name calling. I will help you with the economics and stock markets: Economies and markets are cyclical and no amount of government “help” nor liberal whining will change that.

    Liberal meddling will however prolong any downturn as FDR did with the depression.

  • freeinpa

    53 (must be IQ) is nanner nanner boo boo your next response.

    You can consider it but don’t make it so dumb ass!

  • 53_3

    Yup, it’s up over 2000 points since Obama has been in office, idjit.
    .
    On top of that, don’t flay your stupidity with the FDR crap. There are more than enough articles to shoot your idotic sham of a “history” out of the water:
    .
    Go to wikipedia and look up “FDR”, the “Great Depression” and follow the links, bozo.
    .
    Less than two years after FDR took office, dickhead, unemployment, a lagging indicator, dropped from 20+% to 11%.
    .
    Dumfock.

  • 53_3

    Well, who made you God to decide this? There is nothing that says so anywhere in the documents our founding fathers forged, except for that phrase.
    .
    Oh, I forgot, as to who annointed you cheef dittohead!
    .
    Rush Limbaugh, the Self Annointed Addict…

  • freeinpa

    Hey 53 IQ points and dropping

    Where were all the dumos during any of this. Oh yeah the Chief of Ballerina was working for a Wall Street firm, Gore the main source of global warming was working for a private equity firm. B. Frank the stuttering gasbag from MA was proclaiming Fannie and Freddie were sound while Raines, Johnson and Gorelick were committing fraud and taking hundreds of millions of dollars in payouts.

    As always libs just sucking the system dry then complaining about somebody else
    http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/23617.html

  • 53_3

    Sorry, the idea of coming up from below, to surprise the unsuspecting victim with gaping jaws was just too much. A lot like Tylosaurus coming up to feast on an unsuspecting fish…
    .
    I had to take another couple bites! So invigorating! Chomp chomp guts everywhere!
    .
    Bye!

  • freeinpa

    Finally the truth. And you never will have any constructive to contribute

  • stuartzechman

    freeinpa:

    It is a great chuckle to see all of the liberals whining and crying that the common folk just don’t understand their superior intellect that will bankrupt the country.

    You’re right about that, although it isn’t a chuckle.
    .
    We liberals have a longstanding problem with blaming ordinary folk for being misled, instead of elite institutions for misinforming them. It’s not superior or inferior intellect that’s at work, it’s that our nation is poorly served by the institution of the press.
    .
    It’s especially disheartening to see folks on our side cast ordinary people who are scared to death (because of bad information left unchecked and un-clarified by elite institutions and career liberals themselves) as congenitally stupid, shameless racists and violent psychotics.
    .
    Yep, we liberals have a problem with that…especially right now.

  • stuartzechman

    Hear hear, although it’s a little unfair to solely blame a people (many of them relatively recent immigrants) without centuries of a cultural basis in health, and who are having a (literal) campaign of persuasion waged against them everywhere they turn for responding as the multi-billion dollar button-pushing industry intends.

  • freeinpa

    Love it a liberal invoking God. Don’t you believe that to be government?

    Amazing liberals can’t see the right to bear arms in the second amendment but see with perfect clarity HC as a right.

    Gee Rush an addict maybe he is the illegitimate child of one of the Kennedys

  • freeinpa

    Yes and now its time for your medication

  • jcapan

    SZ,
    ~
    Yes, there’s no doubt that obesity rates are highest for the poorest Americans. Healthy habits cost more (e.g. “Whole Paycheck”). Add to that the often sh!tty public-school diets etc. But having lived in both working & middle class n-hoods, we both know (beyond walkable and wealthy urban enclaves) there are plenty of fat-arsed Yanks in suburbia who know better. They waddle from too-large houses to too-large cars, driving about parking lots until they find the spot least likely to involve walking. And their habits/cupboards are handed down to their innocent kids (i.e. child abuse).
    ~
    I don’t want to blame-the-victim (for those in poverty) but the middle class on up… There’s no denying that their crap lifestyles impact the cost of health care for all Americans.

  • shepherdwong

    Once you start drinking, you should really put down the keyboard and just waddle away. You sound only barely lucid when sober (I’m assuming).

  • shepherdwong

    Obviously, that was aimed at our new friend from PA.
    .
    I’m second to no one, I think, in my disgust with the current state of the news media and it’s disastrous effect on the public understanding and our public policy choices. But Mr. PA isn’t some jerk who gets his views from his fellow redneck barflies or even FOX and CNN. He has access to information that completely refutes his absurd world view (right here, in fact) and he chooses to cling to it nonetheless. Can’t blame that on “bad information”, it’s more psychological and pathological.

  • freeinpa

    stuartzechman

    I agree with you in large part. We are not only poorly served by the press but the government as well. One of my favorite journalist died today, Robert Novak. Whether you agreed with him or not he held both sides feet to the fire. Gumshoe Journalists like him or Mike Royko just don’t exist anymore.

    We will be underserved by our government as long as we allow professional politicians to exist. Most would not last 6 months in the real world.

    Misinformation is abundant on both sides

  • shepherdwong

    Wow, this does sounds promising:

    By far the most controversial detail is who would participate in these exchanges. Both the House and Senate plans would restrict access to small businesses and individuals not eligible for employer-sponsored plans that meet a set of minimum standards for coverage. Plus, while the House plan would at least start with one national exchange, a Senate proposal would allow states to set up their own, and that could create problems from the outset; not only could they take longer to set up, but there is doubt about whether state or regional exchanges would be able to attract enough enrollees to leverage for lower premiums. Alain Enthoven, a leading health-care economist at Stanford University, says these conditions would make it impossible for the exchanges to reach the “critical mass” of pooled enrollees necessary to leverage insurers to offer lower premiums. Enthoven says exchanges need at least 20% of the privately insured population to be viable, far more than would participate under the House and Senate plans. He is among a community of health-policy experts who advocated for the exchange to be open to everyone at the outset, an idea that has been ignored thanks to President Obama’s promise that “if you like what you have, you can keep it.” An exchange offering more transparency and lower premiums could attract many large employers, destabilizing the current employer-based health-insurance system, from which more than half of Americans get coverage.
    .
    Then there’s the problem of adverse selection. Under the House plan, the exchange would be the only place private insurers would be allowed to market and sell individual insurance policies. But under the plan from the one Senate committee that has released legislation, insurers could still sell insurance outside the exchanges. This is a recipe for failure, according to Karen Pollitz, a health-policy researcher at Georgetown University. “Anytime you’ve got competing markets, there is an opportunity for risks to get shifted,” she says. (Both the House and Senate plans would allow, but not require, small businesses to participate, with the House plan opening the door to larger and larger companies over time.)

    .
    So a completely untried system fraught with implementation problems, just like national co-ops. Compared to some form of “public option” which has kept costs in check in every industrialized nation on earth. Who sold you this bill-of-goods, anyway? Hoekstra still got your ear?

  • freeinpa

    53 (IQ and falling)

    http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

    Here have someone read this to you. It is a study by econ professors at UCLA. The depression was prolonged by 7 YEARS by his policies.

    I am sure you have plenty of articles from other members of the tin-foil hat crowd. But just like your posts, they make great birdcage liners

  • freeinpa

    shepherdwong:

    Well I have been called worse names by a better class of people than this crowd.

    Just like a liberal to take a closed mind, arrogantly superior attitude and believe himself to be a god. As the current Messiah is finding out when you only deal with those who thinks the same way and have accomplished little. Actually you own little circle jerk. I would gladly take opinions from rednecks rather than neutered self centered narcissists.

    Actually, the only way most of you guys make sense is to drink. Except 53, who apparently has played too long with the home lobotomy kit There isn’t enough Jack Daniels in Tennessee for him to make sense

  • freeinpa

    Do you here voices all the time?

  • http://www.epluribusunumblog.com/2009/08/friends-like-these/ Friends Like These | E Pluribus Unum

    [...] Klein went all over the airwaves and in print to sell us on the idea that insurance exchanges, this completely untried system fraught with implementation problems (like [...]

  • shepherdwong

    Hey, I ain’t blamin’ the victim. We didn’t have this problem until the corn syrup industry started pushing 32oz. sodas (and the rest of the super-sized, processed, chemically-flavored crappolla that goes with them). Even Wonder Bread, butter and mayonnaise didn’t make us this sick.

  • freeinpa

    It is convenient to blame 32 oz sodas and being poor but probably incomplete as to the source. Poverty has been around forever. In fact, from our current level of the poverty line, the period 1959-1995 saw poverty at higher levels of the population. And the current level is probably grossly overstated since the census counts only cash income and gives no weight to food stamps, housing subsidies or tax credits. Doing the same period ownership of TV, electronic games and such has more than doubles for those below the poverty line. Is there a connection there?

    At one point you argue that the poor are hit the hardest with obesity then manage to trash the “rich lifestyle” for being fat. Your stereotype was incomplete since those same privileged folk belong to heath clubs, use expensive bicycles, golf clubs, tennis clubs etc. All the while earning money to pay an ever increasing portion of taxes to support government programs that do not help people but addict them.

    Maybe the public education crowd should teach something about nutrition and give up on Heather has 2 moms or why we hate America history class or the other of dozens of programs that have no redeeming educational value whatsoever in the public school system.

  • James, Los Angeles

    Fifty Three,
    are you a paleontologist by trade, by any chance?

  • freeinpa

    James, Los Ang…

    No he just lives in a cave..

    BTW I anm sure you were as outrages about this

    “Hardball” host Chris Matthews and his daytime colleagues at MSNBC, for example, have their used air time to marvel at what would possess an average American citizen to go to a rally near where President Obama is speaking with a gun.

    But the media reaction was markedly different nine years ago when a group of Black Panthers marched on the Texas Republican Party’s state convention on June 2000 brandishing AK-47s. Indeed, that incident itself was chalked up as then-Gov. Bush’s fault by none other than then-MSNBC “Equal Time” co-host Paul Begala.

    AMAZING HOW LIBS DEVELOP IMSTANT AMENSIA

  • rose83

    Obviously lifestyle choices are a problem, but Obama made a good point in his interview with KT when he said that actually Americans should pay less for health care than Europeans because Europeans are older and smoke more. (I don’t know about Japan although I believe the demographics are older) And you have to be very overweight before your health risks match people who smoke and are older.

  • James, Los Angeles

    That’s my point, dipstick. The media has no business glorifying deranged extremists of any stripe.
    .
    .
    .
    I see you are reduced to copying stories from Newsbusters directly off google. Get a brain, moran!

  • freeinpa

    Since most libs on this site are just reduced to name calling its tough to see if you have a point. The real point is you rage against one side even when doing a legal act.

    “Get a brain moran?” Obviously, a brain fart from the superior intellect from the left coast.

    I’ll try and link to stories from those superior sources that libs use like Huffington, Salon or Maddow or some other rag those attracts highly arrogant inconsequential folks like many of the libs whose anger has scored a coup over their brain.

  • shepherdwong

    freeinpa:
    You’re the only one here who thinks you sound clever. Really. It’s embarrassing.

  • freeinpa

    rose83

    Wasn’t the legal suits against tobacco, the last Satan before Insurance Companies, supposed to address all of those HC issues. Between the settlements and increased taxes it was to provide health care assistance and education on smoking.

    Money is gone and smoking continues. In corporate America that would be classifed as fraud. In government, its just more liberal politics.

  • jcapan

    Rose,
    ~
    Does KT give you $ for touting that interview?
    ~
    Not sure if what Obama said was accurate–or if his focus was merely on what insurance co’s charge vs. risks that pretty much all doctors agree upon. I’ve seen some fairly compelling articles making the case that obesity will cost Americans as much/more than smoking.
    ~
    As for my locale, Japanese smoke considerably more (at/above European levels) and demographically are becoming grayer by the day.
    ~
    This site uses OECD data…
    ~
    World obesity rates: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity
    ~
    And smoking rates: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_dai_smo-health-daily-smokers
    ~
    Life expectancy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
    ~
    And FYI, some data on graying Japan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan
    ~
    And, of course it goes without saying that we pay a fraction of what Americans pay: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934556.html

  • stuartzechman

    Oregon JC:
    .
    Thanks for that data.

  • rose83

    jcapan, thanks for the links (have I mentioned I’m a statistics nerd before?). I’ll look at them tomorrow.
    .
    And no, unfortunately I’m not getting paid for plugging the interview. Or for recommending NY Times magazine articles nearly every week. You’d think I’d at least get a free dead-tree subscription…
    .
    freeinpa, my point was actually that Americans smoke less. Smoking has nothing to do with why Americans pay more for health care.

  • jcapan

    Rose, I also came across an intriguing NIH abstract of a study done at Emory. Not having free uni-access anymore sucks, but I did find a pretty good power pt. version:
    ~
    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934556.html

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    You know how I know the libs are in deep doo? My local Yellow Dog rep is already running radio ads for 2010.

    KEEP WHINING, LEFTO-AMERICANS!

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