Re: Re: Public Droption

Both Joe and Karen weighed in on this earlier today, but I thought I would just add my voice to the choir saying I don’t quite understand what the big deal was Sunday over the “public 0ption” statements by administration officials–beyond the press needing a Monday story in the middle of summer. As Karen wrote, anyone who has been paying attention knows that President Obama long ago made the public option a priority he was willing to sacrifice, under certain vague circumstances. Yet then Sunday: A revelation!

As a result, I have some sympathy for White House Spokesman Robert Gibbs who had an entertaining go-around with reporters today, on the flight back from Phoenix, in which he was asked to explain why he did not choose to make a story out of something that he did not believe was a story by objecting to it, or something like that.  The transcript after the jump.

Q    Public option — is it dead or not?

MR. GIBBS:  I got to tell you, this is one of the more curious things I’ve ever seen in my life.  I was on a Sunday show, I said the same thing about a public option that I’ve said for I don’t know how many weeks.  The Secretary reiterated what the President said the day before, and you’d think there was some new policy.

Q    The language appeared to be –

MR. GIBBS:  The language “appeared” to be?

Q    Well, the language on Saturday — the President made — saying that the public option was only a sliver, and whether it’s in it or it isn’t in it seems to move the ball a little bit from where you guys were.  No?

MR. GIBBS:  No.  I think you can go back and find the President saying — look, the President has said that’s his preference, but the President has also said I don’t know how many times if the goals are choice and competition, right, the reason you have a public option is because you have an insurance market that doesn’t have choice or competition.  If somebody is trying to seek private insurance on — private health insurance on a private market and only has — because this happens in some areas or in some states where there’s one insurance company that does business in that region, that that is — that doesn’t ensure the type of affordability and quality that you’d want to see in a health insurance system.

So you have some competition that provides some choice, so that if a family of four might have different insurance needs than a single person or a couple that’s married with no children or what have you.  The goals are choice and competition. His preference is a public option.  If there are other ideas, he’s happy to look at them.  Because I think his — I think this is true not only for the issue of health care, but for virtually every other issue that he’ll ever deal with in public life is he has goals about what he wants to accomplish and he’s not necessarily wedded to one — only one way of getting there.  I think he’s said that a hundred times.

Q    Just to be completely clear, has anything changed on the public option?

MR. GIBBS:  No.  I challenge you guys all to go back and see what we’ve said about this over the course of many, many, many, many months, and you’ll find a boring consistency to our rhetoric.

Q    The rhetoric, as you say, might be consistent, but the movement on the ground, so to speak, toward legislation hasn’t been.  Is there any recognition now that a public option is looking less likely to be part of a final deal?

MR. GIBBS:  Let me make sure I understand your question, because I want to know if it’s — is this predicated on legislative developments since Congress has been out of session, or are we trying to match the stampede of a series of stories to if not the consistent language that we’ve all been saying to some now legislative vote?

Q    It’s just looking more and more likely that a public option is not going to be part of the final bill.  I’m wondering if the White House is –

MR. GIBBS:  I do think — can I just — I want to point out the — how do I phrase this — massive irony that I don’t know that I saw any of your stories denote the fact that this might be — that you’re surmising now this was a political reality rather than –

Q    That’s what we’re asking.

MR. GIBBS:  I understand, but did you think from the phrasing of Julianna’s question that we might be coming to justify a series of stampeding stories in one direction based on something different than what we’ve always said?

Q    But you guys have — you haven’t exactly come out publicly since Sebelius’ statement yesterday, come in front of the cameras to speak to us, to downplay –

MR. GIBBS:  Because nothing has changed.

Q    But you haven’t downplayed the remarks and the coverage either.

MR. GIBBS:  No, no, I think many people talked to you all yesterday.  I think people sent e-mails.  David Axelrod called people.

Q    (Inaudible.)

MR. GIBBS:  I didn’t get an e-mail from you.  Nothing has changed.  I mean, we can go out and say nothing has changed, but that seems sort of silly since nothing has changed.

Look, in terms of the political realities, obviously there’s a public plan — or public option in the House bill.  There is a public option in the HELP bill.  I don’t know what the Senate Finance Committee will come out with.

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  • plukasiak

    I think that the difference is that, up until this point, whenever Gibbs or Obama was asked whether Obama would veto a bill without a public option, he obfuscated, and/or refused to take a position.
    _
    When Sibelius made it clear that a public option was not essential, she was signalling that Obama would not veto a bill that did had no public option.
    _
    Sure, those of us who pay attention and draw conclusions based on the obfuscations and denials of politicians weren’t surprised — but the media doesn’t hold anyone’s feet to the fire for being vague and disingenuous when answering their questions…

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    The big deal will be if they actually go ahead give up on it. That will insure Obama is a one term president.

  • tffletch

    The sad thing is that politicians are so concerned with fashioning bills that pass that after awhile they have no idea what policy they have produced.

    That’s why they end up with so many ineffective bills.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    is this predicated on legislative developments since Congress has been out of session, or are we trying to match the stampede of a series of stories
    .
    Classic. Thanks for sharing the insight that foolishness can indeed be contageous.

  • James, Los Angeles

    Taibbi yesterday:

    I’ll say this for George Bush: you’d never have caught him frantically negotiating against himself to take the meat out of a signature legislative initiative just because his approval ratings had a bad summer. Can you imagine Bush and Karl Rove allowing themselves to be paraded through Washington on a leash by some dimwit Republican Senator of a state with six people in it the way the Obama White House this summer is allowing Max Baucus (favorite son of the mighty state of Montana) to frog-march them to a one-term presidency?

    Matt Taibbi – Taibblog – Obama’s Pre-emptive Health Care Surrender – True/Slant

    Indeed so.

  • pierogielunaire

    Karen and Joe suggested the public option was merely a bargaining chip, but a bargaining chip for what? Single Payer would have been a good bargaining chip in order to get to a public option. Bargaining away the one thing that could actually make health care reform something more than a meaningless gesture is just too stupid for words.

    It would be better to put forth a robust bill and have it voted down than to put out a bill with no public option. Let those who oppose it oppose it in a roll call vote, then campaign against them hard whether they be Dems of Republicans. Howard Dean was right to suggest that Democrats who oppose the public option should be primaried. There really is no point in having such a large majority if you can’t get the most important legislation done.

  • James, Los Angeles

    MS, do you have any thoughts about how irresponsible the cable news people are, Ed Henry for example, in interviewing this whack jobs with guns at these rallys? There were TWELVE idiots carrying guns today. I’m sure they want to be on television and CNN and the irresponsble cable people happily comply, because as Howie Kurtz says, it’s so much more fun to cover armed idiots at presidential rallies. Remember, it’s your ass on the line as well, if you are going on AF1. Won’t ONE of you guys speak up about this irresponsible practice? Or what, you sit around in your spare time guffawing about it?

    Twelve Carry Guns — Including Assault Rifle — Outside Obama Event | LiveWire
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  • destor23

    It’s a story because, whether Obama was open to sacrificing the public option or not, his base doesn’t want him to give this up. To pretend this is a nonstory is to assume that the wishes of Obama’s base are unimportant.

  • plukasiak

    the public option isn’t so much the bargaining chip as it is the framework in which the “bargaining” takes place.
    _
    What this means is that the “public option” as originally described (i.e. something that everyone — including employers — is eligible for, and can combine forces with other public health care plans like Medicare when negotiating drug and hospital rates, etc.) is considered a “radical” proposal.
    _
    Obama has already sold us out on both the question of hospital charges and drug prices — neither can use the best possible reimbusement schedules from either the drug or hospital parasites. And the Senate HELP version isn’t really a “public option” as understood at all — rather its just another boondoggle for the insurance companies who will be charged with running the “government” program (ala Medicare Advantage) in various regions of the country.
    _
    In other words, all this talk about a “public option” is looking more and more like kabuki — its just a show being put on to “entertain” us, while Obama and Congress make sweetheart deals with the parasites behind closed doors.

  • Cliff

    Here’s my impression of the transcript:
    .
    Gibbs: The sky is blue.
    .
    WHPC: Wait, what?
    .
    Gibbs: The sky is blue. I can’t believe I’m having to tell you guys this.
    .
    WHPC: When did this happen?
    .
    Gibbs: Uh, it’s always been that way.
    .
    WHPC: Yeah, but when did you guys come out and say it was blue?
    .
    Gibbs: It wasn’t necessary until all of you started writing that the sky is green.

  • anon76

    I am fast becoming sick of that Taibbi quote. Would the Senate bill (or the process behind the negotiations) be any less objectionable if it came from a DiFi, Schumer, or Buress? F*ck Taibbi and his condescension- he can complain all he wants about Obama sidelining himself or Baucus being a prick, but I don’t really see the point in maligning an entire state. It is the exact mirror image of the ‘Real America’ inanity we kept hearing during the election.

  • jcapan

    P-luk answers piero’s “but a bargaining chip for what” question in spot-on manner:
    ~
    “In other words, all this talk about a ‘public option’ is looking more and more like kabuki — its just a show being put on to ‘entertain’ us, while Obama and Congress make sweetheart deals with the parasites behind closed doors.”
    ~
    As The Krug wrote today:
    ~
    “Partly it’s a matter of style — as many people have noted, he has been weirdly reluctant to make the moral case for universal care, weirdly unable to show passion on the issue, weirdly diffident even about the blatant lies from the right. Partly it’s a spillover from his other policies: by appointing an economic team that’s Rubin redux, by taking such a kindly attitude to the banks, he has squandered a lot of progressive enthusiasm.
    ~
    Add in the dealmaking as part of the health care process itself, and progressives can be forgiven for having the impression that Obama (a) takes them for granted (b) is way too easily rolled by the other side.
    ~
    So progressives have their backs up over one provision in health care reform that’s easy to monitor. The public option has become not so much a symbol as a signal, a test of whether Obama is really the progressive activists thought they were backing.
    ~
    And the bizarre thing is that the administration doesn’t seem to get that.”

  • Cliff

    Welcome to Arizona. State Motto: “Beyond the Thunderdome.”

  • freeinpa

    And he did it with your pants on and without a kiss

  • James, Los Angeles

    I’m not getting tired of it at all. I plan to post it all over the internet every chance I get. F*ck Baucus and his Blue Dogs.
    .
    Aren’t we a little oversensitive about the sparsely populated state from which he hails? I’d hardly call that “maligning” Montana, which is a fine, fine state.

  • jcapan

    Anon, I understand how grating the Taibbi quote must be, but personal backgrounds aside, check out this
    Nate Silver piece.
    ~
    “What this means is that senators from small states tend to be relatively more dependant on special-interest money — it makes up a larger share of their overall take. Senators from the ten smallest states have received, on average, 28.4 percent of their campaign funds from corporate PACs, versus 13.7 for those in the ten largest. There is a tendency to think of senators from small states as being populists, and there are a few instances in which this is accurate — Jon Tester of Montana and John Thune of South Dakota, for instance, are relatively non-dependant on PAC money. But for the most part, something the opposite is true, and senators from small states in fact have more incentive to placate special interests.”
    ~
    I say this as someone who’s lived in all 4 time zones, states with big & small pop’s. Taibbi’s sctick doesn’t negate the inherently undemocratic process he lambasts. Personally, I don’t believe there should be a senate.

  • donovong

    “she was signalling that Obama would not veto a bill that did had no public option.”

    I think she was signaling that she was hungry and wanted pasta for dinner. Wait, no, I think she was signaling that she wanted a fast ball, high and tight.

    What you are doing is no better than what the “media” is doing – grasping at straws in order to justify a preconceived opinion.

  • pierogielunaire

    I’m sure you are both correct, and Krugman is insightful as usual. What is maddening is the the mixed messaging from the WH. Listening to Obama’s town hall on Saturday, I thought he was as strong as I’ve heard him in a long time. Slap down deathers? Check. Point out the wastefulness of medicare advantage? Check. Then to have Sibelius give away the store on Sunday. Aargh! But Anthony Weiner was a bright spot today and Howard Dean is taking no prisoners. It really would be better to have nothing at all rather than the watered down crap this is turning into.

  • James, Los Angeles

    That must have been Major Garret of Fox News. He ain’t the brightest bulb in the box. (I confess I’m a big fan of his though. His histrionics are kind of fun to watch.)

  • James, Los Angeles

    Are you from Arizona, Cliff? If so, I’ll refrain from my customary Arizona-bashing.

  • James, Los Angeles

    Tip’o'the cap, JC. I bow to your superior diplomatic skills. I’m afraid I’ve been out of sorts most of the day.

  • anon76

    Just declaring that Baucus is the favorite son of Montana is maligning, never mind the condescension in the rest of his statement. I have no problem with Nate Silver’s logic- its true that a senate campaign costs less in lower-population states and that this makes such races targets for the corporations. However I can’t honestly say that I feel that Baucus is any more ‘bought’ than senators from much larger states, and conversely I’d put Tester up with the Feingolds in terms of Senators who seem to have some integrity. My point is that if, as jc advocates, you want to abolish the Senate, then I’m down with that. Even more likely to pass, I’d say strengthen campaign finance laws or make public funding of elections a reality. But Taibbi’s quote is pure big-state snobbery, and comes accross as exactly the attitude which led to the term ‘flyover country’.

  • jcapan

    J-LA, my response was also due in part to the fact that I’d posted that same quote on a dead thread yesterday (as is my time-zoned penchant) and Anon had responded there as well. I’d forgotten to get back to him/her.
    ~
    I was a little struck by your posting it, b/c as you know Taibbi is not merely excoriating Blue Dogs/Bauc. He’s far less forgiving of el presidente.

  • James, Los Angeles

    Well, jc, I’m pissed off at all of them. El prez, the blue dawgs, the arizona whack jobs, michael and his poodle press colleagues. Meh. I probably want one nice double shot of bourbon. Wonder if that would help.

    .
    anon, I apologize for my smart-ass answer. It was uncalled for. Sorry.
    .
    Don’t miss Jane Hamsher handling Andrea Mitchell rather well. Here’s video (LINK) Daily Kos: Andrea Mitchell & Jay Rosen’s "Church of the Savvy"

  • jcapan

    “I’d put Tester up with the Feingolds in terms of Senators who seem to have some integrity.”
    ~
    Well, as far as our house-of-lords’ senate goes, that’s about as high praise as you can give. I recall good things written about Tester back in ’06, was it, when he ran. Otherwise, Sanders, Jim Webb at times, the fingers of one hand, with a thumb left over?
    ~
    Sadly, I’d say senate abolition is no less likely to pass than real CFR or public financing. Or term limits or (Australia) fining people for not voting et al.
    ~
    Anyway, Taibbi comes from the gonzo school of journalism. He may rankle at times, but I’m sure you’d agree he’s better than purveryors of CW like MS who may not overtly condescend to you and yours but he’s an essential cog in the estab. machinery. Plus, Taibbi’s piece on the “Peasant Mentality” in America is quite simply the best thing I’ve read in years about the American political landscape.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    I’m not fond of the analogy and Taibbi ought to have a little more respect for the President, because I don’t see how this is any different than what we complain about when the folks on the right do it.

  • Matt

    I don;t think anyone really knows what the heck is going to come out of the Senate. Whatever it is, the White House will eagerly sell it…

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    This seems to be the line that Klein, Tumulty and Mike keep pushing here. We are supposed to shrug off the loss of the public option just because Obama doesn’t have the guts to stand behind it. His slippery values are supposed to excuse his decisions among liberals.

  • jcapan

    Dee says: “because I don’t see how this is any different than what we complain about when the folks on the right do it”
    ~
    I wasn’t complaining about ‘how’ Bush & co. got things done. I was rightfully concerned about ‘what’ they got done. The problem with Obama (thus far) is that the what and the how are both deeply flawed. Like Taibbi, I have to hand it to republicans–they seem to have no problem with saying exactly what it is they stand for (however disturbing). Then, once elected, they move heaven and earth to enact legislation that, surprise! backs up what they’d been passionately espousing during elections. And unapologetically to boot. We on the left may not have liked it, but that is democracy.
    ~
    Meanwhile, we have dems, candidates and officials, who couldn’t articulate what it is they stand for or want at the end of a gun barrel. Is it then any surprise that most folks don’t have a clue and are therefore easily spun by the likes of MS & the GOP wingnuts. Of course, the dems advocate moderately less corporate policies, they are saner, but god help us if even our centrist dems are so poor at explaining or selling their bill of goods. Doesn’t choosing the lesser of 2 evils become far less fulfilling as we age.
    ~
    Just finished off The Golden Notebook and here’s Lessing conveying a simple truth:
    ~
    “Well, judging from what we’ve seen happening in the last thirty years [novel is set in the '50's], in the democracies, let alone the dictatorships, the number of people in a society really prepared to stand against a current, really ready to fight for the truth at all costs is so small that…. Very few people really care about freedom, about liberty, about the truth, very few. Very few people have guts, the kind of guts on which a real democracy has to depend. Without people with that sort of guts a free society dies or cannot be born.”

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    What we really need is a health care leader that smokes, is seriously underweight despite being well over 40, and likes to drink beer with race baiting Harvard profs that assume whites are bigots from birth unless otherwise approved by Eric MARC RICH WHO Holder and the rest of the ACORN All Stars.

    Keep Smokes Alive!

  • James, Los Angeles

    I don’t think it is out of line at all. I agree with Taibbi. Obama DOES appear to be allowing the Blue Dogs and Rahm to lead him around — already the advanced directive provision is gone, they are trying to ditch the public option to please — whoever. He folded on FISA, he folded on torture, he’s not going anywhere on civil rights. Why are we not allowed to criticize that, Dee? He hasn’t shown much leadership on these issues, in my opinion.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Free beer, free cigs, free Medicrap, free free free!

    Really.

    I love long lines and depressed old people.

    In long lines.

    Speaking of long lines, anyone heard from Ashley Biden in the last 5 months?

    I’m thinking Fiji.

  • pafro

    About the only place you can’t bring a gun in AZ is to the state legislature. I’m trying to start a grassroots movement to change that. I don’t think they are safe enough there, and since I keep hearing the wingers tell me how if everyone was conceal-carrying America would be Nirvana, I just want to help them out.

  • pafro

    I am sticking to my contention from last night that a bill with PO will pass the House, and craptacular Frankenstein bill will pass the Senate with less than 3 Republicans, and the Dems will put the PO in the bill in conference and plant pitchfork and torch waving crowds outside Ben Nelson and the Wal-Mart twins places of residence and dare them to teabag America.
    There’s no reason Democrats with AR-15′s can’t take a page from the Paulites and teabaggers and march around in military formation in front of Ben Nelson’s and Max Baucus’ house chanting Thomas Jefferson quotes is there?

  • stuartzechman

    Oregon JC:

    Then, once elected, they move heaven and earth to enact legislation that, surprise! backs up what they’d been passionately espousing during elections.

    I take your point –they’re actually springing from a populist base, while centrist Democrats are more likely not to, but that’s not an entirely true statement.
    .
    Republicans ran on shrinking the government and on fiscal responsibility; they cut taxes for the rich, passed Medicare Part D, federally intervened in a family’s private medical tragedy, and drastically expanded the scope of the federal government’s power, both domestically (entire new bureaucracy) and in terms of empire.
    .
    Of course this is partially due to the fundamental incompatibility of an ideally tiny federal government with the goals of state-enforced social conservatism and militarist world dominance, but that’s not the point. The contradictions of movement conservatism’s ideology don’t explain the wholesale leap into the public trough.
    .
    Republicans do usually enact the policies they say that they will enact, and their base does usually hold them accountable to rightist popular will, but the wild profligacy of the Bush years put an end to Republicans’ credible claim to a real state-shrinking agenda. Even they know and admit that.

  • stuartzechman

    Michael Scherer:

    I have some sympathy for White House Spokesman Robert Gibbs

    Isn’t it basically this guy’s job to sell you the fact that we’ve always been at war with Eastasia?
    .
    When this guy says “Our position hasn’t changed at all.“, isn’t that really a matter of semantics? Isn’t what’s really important here that Obama let people believe that something they wanted was within reach because it was good for them and their country, not because it was not yet on the political chopping block?
    .
    Gibbs really means “We never said anything that you could hold against us if we later decided that we were going to sit by when the public option got dealt away.“, doesn’t he?
    .
    Are you seriously contending that dropping the public option whilst simultaneously embracing the individual mandate is not Obama’s “I was for the 87 billion…“?
    .
    Did you watch the Daily Show tonight?

  • Cliff

    No, go nuts on the Arizona bashing. I’ve had to listen to my coworkers praise Glenn Beck and complain about health care reform and global warming legislation for the past three weeks.
    .
    One lady declared that she can’t wait for Armageddon to get here, in a tone of voice that makes me think she was serious.
    .
    So I’m starting to think that Maricopa County really is a howling desert populated solely by painted savages.

  • Art Pepper

    Somebody needs to explain to me how you get universal coverage without either single payer or a public option.

    If “universal coverage” just ends up being a mandate to purchase a private plan, then it’s Schedule D all over again — a massive giveaway to private corporations.

    Or is the WH peddling its lame co-op idea?

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    BTW, libwits:

    A few of us saw this coming, and I hate to be a hater that hates hating to spread the news, BUT…

    Obama is a FAILURE. A surprisingly early failure to be sure (beating the Clixons of 94 takes some real deal talent), but still a failure.

    Yellow Dog dems and the remaining RINOs are simply running away from his brand of IN YOUR FACE retro-communist, union thug, spam mailing, tenured academic hack, slush funding, bar association suckling crapola.

    And some of them don’t even have opponents for the 2010 mid-terms yet.

    We’re going to jam The Once (AKA Carter Lite) down your craven leftist lard craws in 2010, and again in 2012, 2014, and 2016. BANK BAILOUT ON IT.

    No amount of liberal spin, cajoling, threats, taxes, socialism, media sycophancy, abortion on demand, free euthanasia screening, or race baiting will change that fact.

    Move On, indeed.

    cc: Rahmshtool LLC
    City of Chicago (pre-Chapter 7)
    PBS mailing list

  • Art Pepper

    To pretend this is a nonstory is to assume that the wishes of Obama’s base are unimportant.

    Well that’s exactly it.

  • Art Pepper

    Hula, STFU.

  • jcapan

    SZ,
    ~
    We’re in agreement about the GOP’s contortions / contradictions. Not merely W’s “compassionate conservatism” (the doppelganger IMHO of “change you can believe in”). But the small gov’t/fiscal-respons. planks too.
    ~
    But generally GOP voters understand their leadership correctly–their party ain’t going to give ‘em much, unless they’re wealthy. They expect nothing from gov’t with one holy exception: no new taxes. They expect and (in byzantine twists of intellect) support big gov’t, as long as it goes to their corp. overlords–they’re still waiting on that trickle–or empire maintenance. These are not examples of big-gov’t in the average deluded GOP voter’s mind, just as it’s only ‘judicial activism’ in the pejorative sense when a judge doesn’t share your ideology.
    ~
    IOW, the GOP base and its elected leaders are generally of a piece (discounting the ignorance of said base). OTOH, our own base and the dems are not on the same page, cyclical delusions and projections notw/standing. Progressives find contortions and contradictions rather unpalatable and hope to hold our officials accountable. But some of us, borderline nihilists, see how vain such hopes are. Back to Lessing, who sees utopia, one inch at a time:
    ~
    “There’s a great black mountain. It’s human stupidity. There are a group of people who push a boulder up the mountain. When they’ve got a few feet up, there’s a war, or the wrong sort of revolution, and the boulder rolls down–not to the bottom, it always manages to end a few inches higher than when it started. So the group of people put their shoulders to the boulder and start pushing again. Meanwhile, at the top of the mountain stand a few great men. Sometimes they look down and nod and say: Good, the boulder-pushers are still on duty. But meanwhile they are meditating about the nature of space, or what it will be like when the world is full of people who don’t hate and fear and murder.”

  • lupercal5

    what AP said

  • homerhk

    I don’t understand this. Universal (or near universal) coverage will come from the new regulations that prohibit insurance companies from refusing insurance based on pre-existing conditions, stopping the practice of rescission and providing a minimum coverage level, combined with individual mandates to purchase health insurance and subsidies for those who can’t afford to purchase such insurance.

    What has any of that got to do with the public option? The public option is important, as I understand it, because of costs savings – to keep the insurance companies honest in other words – it’s not needed for universal coverage.

    I think that the words “public option” have become a shiny toy in the eyes of both the right and the left – signifying much more than simply policy. It has become a manifestation of government interference (from the right) and/or the ability or otherwise of the Obama administration to land a punch on the insurance companies and republicans (from the left).

    Obama wants to reform healthcare and not necessarily land a punch; that’s the act of a sensible and smart President; I swear that to read the comments here is to come disappointingly to the conclusion that most people are simply uninterested in how to “govern”; rather they are interested in winning for the sake of the win.

  • chrisnbama

    Major Garrett is trying to fill the niche of White House Antagonist now that David Gregory has left the White House press pool.

    This is the best ratings Major has gotten since the campaign ended last year all brought to us by his hissy fit about the White House’s “enemies list”. So, expect to see alot more of this crap from Major. I watched his segment on Bret Baier’s Fox show where he pretty much claimed credit for the recent demise of the WH’s admittedly poorly conceived attempts to counter the misinformation.

    Apparently, we all have the Freedom of Misinformed Speech.

  • chrisnbama

    Well, I think it IS news when militant’s arrive at rallies parading around with loaded weapons, and banner’s agitating for armed rebellion (the “Tree of Liberty” quote).
    .
    We should be running around with our video camera’s filming a bizarre version of “Right Wing Gone Wild”–without all the young, nubile, feminine charms.
    .
    Ignoring this movement will not make it go away. Of course, the danger in bringing it to the light of day is that it may not have the intended effect. Rather than marginalizing these moonbats, it may embolden them. I just don’t see all of this ending well.

  • James, Los Angeles

    I’m not saying it isn’t news. Obviously, it is news. I’m saying that since these clowns are bringing their bigger dick to the party to get on teevee, maybe the cable people shouldn’t be glorifying them with interviews and instant fame.
    .
    I love the “Right Wing Gone Wild” idea. You should pass that along to Ed “My job is to make news” Henry of CNN.

  • James, Los Angeles

    Well, you gotta have someone there for comic relief and Major is it.
    .
    I liked his histrionic whining about Obama not calling on Fox News during one of his pressers. He went running to Michael Savage about that one. But he is at his best against Gibbs. Gibbs treats him condescendingly and Major does his best to bait Gibbs into a show of temper. It’s pretty funny.
    .
    He’s MUCH better than David Gregory. I hope Fox doesn’t ruin him by giving him his own show……

  • bokeh9

    “What has any of that got to do with the public option?

    Because I believe none of the things you list — all critical to providing care — matter if the cost of the insurance is too high. Expanding coverage beyond what’s profitable increases the price tag. If affordability is the problem for small business today, what in your list helps that?

    I’m with Art (I think) in the conviction that the profit component is the difference between our insurance system and the rest of the world’s care systems. A public or other non-profit option seems necessary to me.

  • FlownOver

    homerhk:

    Without an effective competitive alternative the private insurance carriers will raise their rates significantly to offset the loss of profits resulting from new prohibitions on their current practices (e.g., pre-existing condition disqualification). The cost of the only remaining remedy, rate subsidy from the public treasury, will grow significantly as more people become unable to afford the increased premiums, and as the gap widens for those already unable to afford coverage. Simultaneously, any attempt to restrain underlying medical expenses will be opposed effectively as “socialism,” “tyranny,” and gubmint interference in the sacrosanct doctor-patient relationship.

    The rate support program, having been left as the sole significant cost in health care reform, then becomes isolated in public perception and vulnerable to political attack on a pure dollar basis as a “new welfare entitlement” and “out-of-control government spending.” Pressure for increased waivers from the coverage mandate will increase, resulting in an increase in the number of uninsured, placing more upward pressure on the rates charged to a smaller pool of insured, until we’re back where we started – except, of course, the premiums for private coverage will stay at their inflated post-”reform” levels. Meanwhile, of course, the infinitely creative private carriers will continue to have an economic interest in denying coverage whenever possible by means fair or foul.

    Shorter me:
    Unless there are restraints imposed on private carriers’ rates and practices through the presence of an effective public alternative the public cost of reform quickly will become unsustainable on a purely political basis.

  • FlownOver

    While I was composing my lengthy response (above) you summarized the point much better. Well done.

  • homerhk

    Thanks Bokeh9 and Flown Over. A follow up question or two – and please note that these are genuine questions of interest rather than challenges to what you say (I don’t want to be unfairly accused of being a closet Repub).

    - would the lack of a public option be compensated by stricter regulation on, say, how much the insurance companies are allowed to raise their premiums year on year (or something to that effect)?

    - isn’t there an argument that with the individual mandates requiring everyone to join might have an affect in lowering premiums all round? or at least compensating insurance companies for the losses they will undoubtedly suffer by requiring them to provide coverage to all people, i.e. no refusal for pre-existing conditions etc. It would be a case of volume leading to discounting rates for all.

    - flown over, you said this: “Unless there are restraints imposed on private carriers’ rates and practices through the presence of an effective public alternative the public cost of reform quickly will become unsustainable on a purely political basis.” This is a political not policy argument although I do understand its force. Are you saying that without the public option the reform won’t get passed or that it will get passed but will then be attacked as a further entitlement? If it is the latter, wouldn’t it also be possible that at that time the argument for a public option will be regarded more favourably?

    - finally, i understand the argument for a public option is a means to an end argument, i.e. it is needed to keep costs down. If there is another way to do that would that be acceptable and if not, why not?

    While I would be in favour of a single payer system, I do think that opponents of health reform have a point in saying that a public option would drive insurance companies out of business (I am all for that, but that’s a different matter). That simple point can be made by looking at how many people that qualify for Medicare choose the private insurance route instead. I would imagine very few.

    Finally, I do think the argument about the public option has become a bit fetishised. Obama has always drawn a line in the sand when it comes to costs and I take from your comments that that is the underlying reason why a public option is required. It seems to me that both you and Obama have the same end in mind but that Obama may be open to different means to get there.

  • stuartzechman

    homerhk:

    The public option is important, as I understand it, because of costs savings

    Not to be argumentative, but no: I don’t think that you understand what’s necessarily important to Americans.
    .
    Lots of Americans (like me) don’t like having their medical care paid for by giant, bureaucratic insurers, but must suffer their corrupt existence because wild medical product/service price inflation (think housing bubble circa late 2007) has put having a problem and staying healthy catastrophically out of their price range.
    .
    In 2007, on the advice of my physician, I went to a physical therapist for a rotator cuff tear. The physical therapist (like nearly all health care providers today) made me sign a legal document in which I ultimately agreed to pay them no matter what my insurer did.
    .
    Over the course of eight weeks, I did what I was told to do, showed up every day on time, and made every effort to take advantage of treatment and expertise, and I was rewarded by (what was to me a small miracle, given that 25 percent of my injury never heals) a newly pain-free and exercise-capable shoulder. During this time, Aenta “claim navigator” sent me email alerts and physical mail acknowledging the receipt of the therapist’s bills, and with a helpful little graph showing each treatment’s submitted cost, the date received, the date submitted to Aetna, and a column “You Owe the Provider:” which told me “$00.00″.
    .
    After the eight weeks were almost at an end, Aetna casually started to send me a new “claim navigator” that was a complete reversal of the previous thirty or so (one per treatment visit) emails/letters, in which the “You Owe the Provider:” was now “$8,000.00″ and climbing. I received a series of weirdly threatening letter from a third party rescission-recovery corporation (their website proudly proclaimed “we recover %15 of all claims”) that told me to immediately provide them with all the information that Aetna already had…or my coverage would be dropped, and I would be subject to legal penalties, etc., etc. It was having a credit account in collections, actually.
    .
    I alerted Human Resources, they got on the phone and started the communications/resubmission process that had weird arbitrary deadlines (otherwise no claims regarding this treatment would ever be paid –even if they were determined to be necessary and should be). I alerted the physical therapists’ office, who started the familiar (to them) process of doing the same. Ultimately, after twelve more weeks, Aetna agreed not to try to retroactively recover 90 percent of the claims submitted, and the physical therapist agreed not to bill them for a session or two (the last), and told me that I didn’t have to pay them.
    .
    During this entire time, I was keenly aware that I potentially had a new catastrophic expense, and that even though everything I did was correct and necessary (and helpful), I would never have been able to find out that I had made a bad financial decision by seeking treatment until it was much too late.
    .
    They don’t deny care up front, homerhk, they deny it retroactively, so that it bankrupts people after the claims are already in –after people can’t reduce their treatment, or find a cheaper alternative, or do nothing about their medical problem, after they’ve already signed on to responsibility for whatever they’re going to be billed (which nobody knows in advance, since it may be negotiated by the provider and insurer during billing) instead of the insurer, after they’re screwed.
    .
    The unmistakably clear message with which I was left as a consumer was: “Don’t actually submit the claims for treatment to which your premiums entitle you, unless your life is truly threatened. You’re taking a huge financial risk by assuming an insurer will pay for anything, no matter the merit of your claim.” Everything about the experience seemed designed to keep me in a perpetual state of mystery about what would or would not be paid, so that I would at the very least think twice before I ever took care of any other problem. It’s not that the rules are clear and up-front, it’s that they’re byzantine and with many opportunities for failure on the consumer’s part, with the ultimate behavior inducement being: “Don’t get treatment.”
    .
    My knee still hurts now (and prevents more vigorous exercise) because I won’t put myself in financial jeopardy again by seeking treatment that I know would work…even though I elected the high-deductible, high premium option at work!
    .
    Anecdotally, I can say that my experience is far from unique. The data supports my impressions, too.
    .
    Many, many Americans with these experiences want a way out of their insurers’ traps. They want a public insurance option that doesn’t operate the same way that the huge insurers do, i.e. make them more insecure and powerless.
    .
    The cost savings are systemically important, homerhk, but the way out of the current, monopolistic, hostile bureaucracy is what’s really important to Americans. That’s the promise that they’re seeing being taken away from them (again).
    .
    Thanks for reading and considering this, homerhk, I’ve been meaning to respond to you. You don’t seem to understand that it’s not just an ideological thing for lots of us.

  • bokeh9

    I agree that many of the things you list (and many you don’t) will help. I am open to all options. Maybe someone smarter than I can come up with tweaks to the current profit-based system that will accomplish what you originally listed and solve the pricing issue that presently blocks delivery of care. Right now, I just can’t see how without a non-profit component. Which seems (at least to me) to be a conclusion the rest of the world has reached.

  • freeinpa

    Big problem with that. SOmeone will need to teach the metrosexuals that an AR-15 is not a herbal tea or alternate energy car

  • bokeh9

    Put another way: I believe our health-care system is inherently flawed by generating profits from services necessary for global competition. Yes, changing that without terminally disrupting our economy seems nearly impossible. Maybe not “nearly”. But I can’t see how anything that avoids that issue will be successfull.

  • homerhk

    Stuart,

    first, when I say ideological I don’t mean it in a derogatory way and I truly do understand the problems faced by people having to battle their insurance companies as per your story. I am very sorry to hear that. My mum is a doctor in the UK and we were talking about this over the weekend since my in-laws are from New Jersey so I do know a bit about the difference. I’ve seen my father in law not wanting to go to hospital even though he was bleeding profusely from his head because he didn’t want to end up with a $1000 plus bill for a few stitches and I think it’s a disgrace that a country as wealthy and supposedly enlightened as the US doesn’t have free health care for all at the point of service (as per the UK).

    But that, unfortunately, is by the by because you do have a significant minority in the US that are violently opposed to any government involvement in anything (yes, I know it is ridiculous but you have to deal with the situation as is) and my comments have all been made in the context of the political debate currently going on in the US. The fact that the debate on one side has been ignorant, malicious and disingenuous is also a disgrace – but again, that’s the reality.

    My main concern was simply that even if the public option is not in the bill (and that’s still an open question) that should not be a reason to reject the reform because there are other major accomplishments that will be achieved with the new regulations. The secondary concern was that it seemed to me that the public option has been put on a pedestal as if it is the only means by which costs can be contained; I don’t know whether this is right or not, but I think that all sensible participants in the debate should keep an open mind as to alternative means of getting to the same place.

    I tell you what, though: the “slip” by Sebelius certainly has pushed the public option back into the news now hasn’t it? The news today is all about the public option – three posts from swampland about it and it’s the major news elsewhere. I would much rather have the debate about the public option be so prominent that another rounds of “death panel” crap.

  • Art Pepper

    homerhk: Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
    .
    I think obviously there are many useful ways that health care can be reformed short of universal coverage. So, some reform may be better than no reform.
    .
    My concern is the same as FlownOver and bokeh9. An insurance mandate without a public option means we all have to sign up for a private plan and hope that new regulations will drive down their cost.
    .
    And of couse a mandate with no public option means those who cannot afford it will need a tax subsidy; ie it’s a big tax giveway to private industry.
    .
    Klein for example wants “single payer” by which he actually means tax credits.
    .
    IF someone can explain how we’ll get to UC without a public option, then I’m open to it. The only alternatives that I’ve heard are single payer (the real kind) or a health co-op that would be structured in effect like a public option.

  • pafro

    I think plenty of Dems in Nebraska and Arkansas have handled a firearm before.

  • FlownOver

    homerhk:

    Sorry for the delay in response. I had to sing (actually, advocate) for my supper. I welcome your questions.
    I’d guess outright controls on rates would be even less palatable to insurors than a public option might be.

    Broader coverage mandates might offset premium increases intended to cover added costs for pre-existing conditions – absent rate regulation we can’t say which factor will be the more effective, but anyone who bets the farm on net reductions is someone I want to meet – I have an exciting opportunity in bridge ownership I’d like to discuss. Recent history indicates the existing “free market” is ineffective to bring about a reduction in rates – the attitude is akin to that of the era of the robber barons: “The public be damned.”

    Without the public option something called “reform” is more likely to pass, but less likely to work. Any discrete rate subsidy mechanism will be under attack based on its cost as soon as it takes effect. The “costing you money/higher taxes” argument will win out over the “right thing to do” argument every day, at least on this side of the pond.

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