Sarah Palin, M.D.

The former Alaskan governor, Sarah Palin, better explains today why she is concerned about President Obama’s support for allowing doctors to offer living will consultations to patients with government funding. It is, I believe, a must read, if only as an exercise in logic. Palin is arguing in plain terms that doctors cannot be trusted to give advice to patients, a rather stunning turn.

The issue is the context in which that information is provided and the coercive effect these consultations will have in that context. Section 1233 authorizes advanced care planning consultations for senior citizens on Medicare every five years, and more often “if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual … or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility… or a hospice program.” During those consultations, practitioners must explain “the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice,” and the government benefits available to pay for such services.

Palin goes on to explain that since one of the intents of the bill is to reduce costs in the health system it is logical to assume that seniors “might view such consultations as attempts to convince them to help reduce health care costs by accepting minimal end-of-life care.” (This situation, it can be noted, leaves wealthy people, who by contrast do not depend on Medicare to pay for their consultations with doctors, free to be manipulated by nefarious doctors with discussions about end-of-life preferences.) Let us pause a moment here to consider the import of this argument. Palin is saying that the government should not fund a service many doctors want to provide to their patients–and many patients want provided to them–because doctors might try to dupe patients into denying themselves services. She is arguing, in other words, that the government’s proper role is to restrict the range of services that doctors can provide patients. Isn’t this the opposite of the traditional conservative stance on health care–that the government should not get between the doctor-patient relationship?

Later in the same post, Palin returns to her case against Ezekial Emanuel, whom I wrote about yesterday. Here the problem really is context. Again, she misrepresents his academic work with selective quotes. The first quote, in a paper in which Emaneul discussed dementia, should be put in the context of a theoritical discussion of social ethics, which Marc Ambinder ably explains here. The second quote, in which she speaks about Emaunel’s endorsement of age preference for certain medical treatments, should be put in the context of his paper–which was narrowly focused on those few ethical dilemmas in which there is an absolute scarcity of resources, like when there is one liver for three potential patients.

As Emanuel later makes clear in the same paper, his argument about age preference should not be applied to the broader healthcare debate, which is exactly the thing Palin is accusing him of doing. “Accepting the complete lives system for health care as a whole would be premature,” Emanuel writes on page seven of the paper. “We must first reduce waste and increase spending.” (Reducing waste and increasing spending is, it turns out, exactly the strategy at the heart of the Obama health care reform effort.) Luckily, Palin provides citations for her quotes, so anyone can read for themselves exactly what Emanuel was writing about.

Related Topics: Health Care, Sarah Palin
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  • grollican

    Well written, Michael. if you keep producing analysis like this, you will deserve to be taken seriously as a journalist. If you do it often enough, you might even receive email from Gene Chamblin!

  • spob

    Barack Obama, M.D.:
    .
    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/08/024258.php
    .
    And Mr. Scherer, Charles Lane made similar points in his WaPo piece.

  • juniusredivivus

    Michael, I have been, as you know, more than ready to condemn some of your more atrocious pieces of equivalency-peddling and scaremongering, but this is probably the best and most informative piece I have seen from you. Kudos, good sir. I do, however, have to point out a spelling error. In your title, you need to insert an “A” between the M and D after Sarah Palin.

  • FlownOver

    What does the “traditional conservative stance” have to do with today’s right-wing extremists? They’re perfectly happy to have the government control any aspect of our lives – other than firearms and the evident Constitutional responsibility to enrich the rich at the expense of the rest.

    I’ll say it again – it serves no purpose merely to point out the illogic or outright lies of the Wingers in a blog entry. The only thing that will affect their nefarious manipulation is a relentless focus on the dishonesty of specific officials as a fraud on the body politic.

  • FlownOver

    also:

    “give advice to patients,” not the verb “advise.”

  • tantef

    Of course Sarah doesn’t trust doctors. She already knows they can be manipulated. She certainly manipulated the Dr. who ‘delivered’ her youngest child. If you believe her story of the birth then she manipulated her to allow travel from Texas. If you do not believe the birth story then she manipulated her to change the hospital records! Either way it explains her disdane for Doctors in particular and life in general.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Isn’t this the opposite of the traditional conservative stance on healthcare–that the government should not get between the doctor-patient relationship?

    Like reducing Federal defecits before it and defending personal freedom even earlier, these ‘traditional conservative stances’ are simply fiction. They are after the fact rationionalizations.

    If you want to defend Conservative positions, they are very useful and make some kind of sense but they do not represent what Conservatives actually believe.

    There’s nothing todays Conservatives would like better than to insert government between doctors and patients when it comes to prenatal care and counseling. End-of-life, not so much.

  • spob

    http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NzY2MzhjYjc0MWJhMTJiNzIyYjQ2NjhiZThmZWJlZDU=
    .
    One would think, given all the time spent on Sarah Palin by the Swampland reporters, some time would be given to Obama’s whoppers.
    .
    But no.

  • queencersei

    How about the next time a Pol starts spouting outright lies the MSM just call them a liar. Stop using words like distorition, or half-truth etc. Just say, this person is LYING.

  • plukasiak

    there is one key aspect here that you seem to be missing — that Obama seems to be embracing the “outcome based” payment model.
    _
    when you add that to doctors discussing “end of life” care, suddenly the “doctors counselling euthanasia” is not quite as far-fetched.
    _
    Imagine, if you would, that you’re a doctor or hospital (or insurance company) with a patient with condition X whose prognosis is terminal. The “outcome” is known, and you get paid based on the outcome — at this point, any care that you provide beyond palliative care comes out of YOUR pocket; you have an incentive to “free up the bed” as soon as possible so it can be filled with a new revenue stream.
    _
    For all its absurdity, the “death panel” debate reflects concerns that are very real and legitimate. They are the same concerns that medical ethicists are discussing every day. The fact that they are being exploited by demagogues doesn’t make these concerns any less valid.
    _
    Lets put it another way. Lets say that we get health care reform, and in 2012 a right-wing president and congress is elected. Do you really trust that the people they would put in charge of the system wouldn’t cut appropriations aimed at providing care to the poor — and wind up “warehousing” the poor in poorly staffed and admininstered government hospitals? Do you trust the GOP to do the right thing when it comes to health care for the poor?
    _
    If you don’t then you have to remember that a lot of people don’t trust the Democrats either.

  • sy2d

    Poor Sarah – still making sh!t up.

  • spob

    The other issue is that the government is obviously incentivized to control costs. Given that end-of-life care is often expensive, people can easily worry that’s what’s going to be scrimped on.

  • juniusredivivus

    For all its absurdity, the “death panel” debate reflects concerns that are very real and legitimate. They are the same concerns that medical ethicists are discussing every day. The fact that they are being exploited by demagogues doesn’t make these concerns any less valid.
    .
    So the fact that liars and kooks rabidly distort an important subject and prey on the emotional distress and fear of others means that we should give them the time of day? Just what sort of idiot are you?

  • spob

    but when you guys lump illegal aliens into the 47 million uninsured, that’s just service to the cause, right.

  • spob

    “(Reducing waste and increasing spending is, it turns out, exactly the strategy at the heart of the Obama health care reform effort.)”
    .
    Then why isn’t Obama addressing all the medicaid/medicare fraud, which is a huge problem. And, given Obama’s profilgacy with respect to the “stimulus”, why do you take what he has to say at face value, Mr. Scherer?

  • pierogielunaire

    I too appreciate Michael’s analysis, but it runs the risk of suggesting that Palin be taken seriously because she used footnotes. The idea that end of life counseling as described in the bill represents pressure to accept euthanasia is and outright fabrication, as is the notion that Emmanuel is suggesting generalized euthanasia as a way to hold down costs. Whether or not Palin’s lies are consistent with a mythical, nostalgic view of conservatism is secondary to the fact that they are lies. And not just the typical truth-twisting we expect from our politicians, but genuinely dangerous misinformation.

  • tantef

    The use of footnotes is just another indicator that Palin is not writing her Facebook blurbs. The only footnote she understands is made by “Naughty Monkey”. She has a new ghostwriter.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    If by uninsured, you mean people who underutilize preventive care, overutilize ER’s and end up not paying for services thus driving costs up for everyone, I don’t see any particular reason NOT to refer to Illegals as uninsured…..

    The problem with the current debate is that everything bad that people are afraid will happen is already happening under our current system.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    This is what drives most of us nuts about Scherer as well as other writers at Swampland. He obviously has the ability to write stuff like this when he wants to but most of the time he plays right into the he said she said drudge inspired media game. Its not even about whether he slants right or left, its about calling bs when something is bs instead of creating false equivalence.

    Nice job Scherer, can you keep this kind of consistency?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    The other issue is that the government is obviously incentivized to control costs

    And private insurers are not?!

    Missing from the discussion is the fact that anybody and everybody has the opportunity to pay for their care out-of-pocket. Why is it the Conservatives who suddenly think the government owes them money?

  • plukasiak

    failing to address the legitimate concerns because the loudest people are “kooks and liars” is a recipe for disaster, because the “quiet” ones will not be hearing what they need to hear from you.
    _
    Obama is taking on subjects that are much harder to deal with than expanding access to health care — and that is his big mistake. He’s taking on “entitlement reform” in the midst of the health care reform debate, because he’s made deals with the health care parasites that rule out the kind of ‘single payer’ option that can achieve a level of cost savings sufficient to provide health care to all Americans.
    _
    The parasites want this to be about the inefficiency of the delivery system — about doctors ordering unncessary treatments and tests. The problem is that while the delivery system may be “inefficient”, it can still be the most cost effective, because the costs associated with creating a more efficient delivery system have to be included in that system.
    _
    And while its easy to find ways to reduce the most egregious examples of inefficiency, the costs savings available through the elimination of egregious waste are probably not sufficient. Moreover, the more money you try to save through imposition of efficiencies in non-egrious cases, the more likely you are to interfere in the doctor/patient relationship and/or engage in “rationing”.
    _
    All these considerations create massive opportunities for demagogues — and that’s why everyone always talks about forming “bipartisan commissions” to deal with these kinds of issues. Obama lack of knowledge and/or experience with health care legislation processes has lead him into an ethical swamp populated by parasites and demagogues….
    _
    Obama may be able to get out of that swamp in one piece, but he’ll have to sacrifice effective health care reform to do so.

  • juniusredivivus

    Interesting .. mention liars and kooks, and spob appears. It’s like calling a dog.

  • juniusredivivus

    pluk, given your record of paranoid hatred of Obama, somehow I don’t think your analysis deserves too much concern. But I am sure Sarah Palin will be delighted to sign you up as a Facebook buddy. After all, you share the same concerns, and have the same approach to discussing them. You can join spob there and peddle misinformation together.

  • tjb0501

    Those (of us) who find Ms. Palin’s world view and lust for higher office to be scary beyond description should take every opportunity to let her (publicly) speak her mind, and just get out of the way. Every day she paints herself as an apt successor to Rush Limbaugh on the blow-hard radio circuit, but not much more.

  • palininatowel

    I used to think she was simply a moron. Now, I think she’s simply a complete moron.

  • http://acmeanvil.wordpress.com/ acmeanvil

    Except for the undeniable fact that Obama didn’t specify that was what Medicare pays, and except for the undeniable fact that the surgeon actually bills $50k for the operation, and except for the undeniable fact that only Medicare or insurance company intervention whittles it down to something rational, and except for the undeniable fact that any poor slob without insurance would be stuck for the whole $50k, and except for the undeniable fact the surgeon will sic collection agencies on said poor slob if he does not fork over the whole $50k, you have a perfectly valid point.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    plukasiak — I’m not at all surprised that you’ve joined this debate in a way that is so incredibly disingenuous. clearly you have such a problem with Obama that you can’t resist any shot at him, regardless of how ludicrous it really is. If there is one aspect missing from this debate it is the very real possibility that not having access to this kind of counseling so your precise wishes can be known increases your chances exponentially that you might end up as some conservative’s issue de jour for ginning up political support in an increasingly hostile environment. Terry Schiavo anyone.

  • palininatowel

    Hilarious, spob:

    The other issue is that the government is obviously incentivized to control costs.

    I can’t keep your arguments straight. Is it that the government makes a mess of everything with its free=spending ways, or is it that the government is more effective at controlling costs than the private sector?

    And, by the way, do insurance companies try to control costs? Do you have health insurance? Ever have to fight with your insurance company to get them to cover a needed test or procedure?

    What a steaming load you dished up…

  • spob

    The difference, guys, is that I can fight an insurance company. You cannot really fight a govt bureaucracy.

  • merelymyopinion

    “It is, I believe, a must read, if only as an exercise in logic.”

    Yes, only. A time suck with zero significance. You might as well search for the end of a mobius strip.

  • palininatowel

    Oh, really, spob? So you admit that the issues you claim will happen under a public option are already happening under the private insurers? And you also admit that the government will be cutting costs?

    And why are you against this again?

  • gysgt213

    At some point covering anything Sarah Palin has no point.

  • centfan

    So the Democrats want to save money by killing off all those folks getting government socialized medicine? She’s saying the Democrats are evil socialist savers? Death before deficits and the Democrats are the sponsors?

    She’s on a new dimensional horizon of right wingnuttery.

  • plukasiak

    pluk, given your record of paranoid hatred of Obama, somehow I don’t think your analysis deserves too much concern.
    _
    translation: I can’t rebut you, so I’ll ignore you.

  • spob

    Of course, private insurers are incentivized to control costs. They also need to follow their contracts.
    .
    With respect to the gov’t, the issue is that if the gov’t makes a policy choice not to fund something or to not fund enough of it, you’re going to see what’s happening in Canada or Britain.
    .
    As for government, the government can at once be profiligate (e.g., V-22 Osprey) and cheap. It’s called nuance, guys.

  • palininatowel

    spob makes a similar illogical leap, upthread.

    I can’t keep the conservative argument straight… Is it that Democrats are free-spending fools, or cost-control zealots?

    Great humor in trying to track the inanity that flows from Palin and her loony acolytes…

  • spob

    Guys, the govt can be at once profligate and penurious.
    .
    See, e.g., California, right now.
    .
    http://www.conservatives4palin.com/2009/08/larry-kudlow-obamas-non-denial-denial.html

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    that I can fight an insurance company.

    Of course the best way to fight an insurance company is to call in the appropriate govenment agency. Without the law on your side, ya got nuthin…..

  • spob
  • palininatowel

    More hilarity ensues…

    Guys, the govt can be at once profligate and penurious.

    Only as it suits your argument, spob. Generally, under the Reagan (dead god) scenario, the government is always wrong. And your inanity makes that clear.

  • mfbattle

    While Palin is priceless you should check out an article in the Guardian:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/aug/13/stephen-hawking-nhs-twitter-welovethenhs

    Which covers an editorial in Investor’s Business Daily. The main quote from IBD is:

    “People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.”

    I couldn’t stop laughing for five minutes.

  • Matt

    I refuse to believe that Sarah Palin is actually portraying doctors as nefarious tools of the government.

    I choose to think that Palin is simply out of her mind and grabbing at any scenario, no matter how remote, to back up her “death panel” blurb.

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • dunedweller

    My reaction to reading the first line of this post was not to read it because why on earth do I care what Sarah Palin is concerned about? Will you post what Rush Limbaugh is concerned about next? Suffice to say I skipped to the first couple comments and seeing that people who have opinions I respect think it’s a good piece, I guess I’ll read it when I have time, sigh.

  • spob

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aGrKbfWkzTqc
    .
    gee, where would people get the idea that Obama likes the idea of rationing . . . .

  • pierogielunaire

    A ghost writer as ignorant as herself, apparently. Her whole “context” argument boils down to the fact that there is end of life counseling in a bill that also purports to save money, ergo euthanasia. As if one could not possibly make healthcare less expensive while providing for needed services without killing off a bunch of people.

    I also love how the writer puts “Death Panel” in quotes in the post as if Palin were not the one who said “death panels” to begin with. Maybe she writes her own titles and leaves the rest to someone else. That would explain the unnecessary punctuation.

  • dunedweller

    Hey, here’s an idea, how about posting what Howard Dean is concerned about? He ran for president once and actually held a governor position for 6 terms AND he’s a doctor. That must at least make his thoughts and concerns more qualified than Sarah Palin. Now that I would read immediately.

  • mccainfluffer

    Spob said:

    “Of course, private insurers are incentivized to control costs. They also need to follow their contracts.”

    Gee, if that’s the case, why have medical costs been rising faster than the cost of normal inflation? Insurance companies are incentivized to attain maximum profits. The profit motive and the need to provide medical care for everyone do not go well together.

    .

  • nmrichardson

    What I don’t understand about all this hullabaloo over healthcare is why don’t people recognize that we already have insurance that is run by state governments that do very well. Take for instance SCIF in Californian. SCIF is state run insurance for workman’s comp. It was set up to be non-profit but it is run so well it is actually making a profit! Arizona has SCF which is workman’s comp insurance. Massachussetts has state run auto insurance. These are the only insurances I know of personally that are run by state governments but they have been in existence for years, compete with private insurers, and they didn’t bring disaster to anyone. I don’t hear anyone complaining about these types of insurance. What about the socialized medicine that we already have? Oh………did the conservatives forget about such things as Medi-Cal, AHCSSS, and Medicaid???? We already pay money out of our paychecks for low income people to have medical benefits. These are all government run entities that seem to be able to provide decent medical care to people. What I really think this boils down to is money and the power of the pharmaceutical and health insurance industries. Do you really believe in your heart that your Republican or Democrat congressperson cares about you and your health? If they did we wouldn’t be having these raging discussions. What matters the most is that you are dependent and addicted to the drugs the pharmaceutical companies sell to you. If you were well they wouldn’t be making money off of your illness. One more thing and I will be quiet. I love the rationing of health care argument. I hate to say this but we already have such a thing in place and its enforced by the health insurance companies. Take for instance a man who went to the ER for a finger that is rotting away. He cannot find a hand surgeon who will accept his private insurance. This means he is eventually going to lose a finger or maybe his whole hand. Oh but good citizen he is he must sacrifice his limb so that all of us can remain on our private insurance plans and heaven forbid have socialist medicine.

  • themaverickformerlyknownasbasilbrush

    It’s always useful to remember one simple fact: if spob were an honest, patriotic American, he wouldn’t be spob.

  • winski

    This is getting real close to the edge – of complete lunacy..

    Her first facebook plagiarism was bad enough but her new press staff is so lame, they even look worse than Palin! Where do these people get their data?? Ooops, I forgot…THEY MAKE IT UP!

    Let’s get the basics down early – there is no bill..there are remnants of FIVE with proposals all over…so any inclination to use phraseology to say “the bill” is complete crap. But Palin’s staff is too stupid even to figure that out. The rest of her staff’s rant is almost un-readable because it is so disjointed and rambling you’ve got to follow along and try to figure out
    1) if they are pulling data out of their butts or
    2) reading something that actually came out of congress as a proposal, or
    3) something beck or hannity sent them.

    Next we’ll get a complete novel of fiction from her staff to use as kindling…

  • notfooledtx

    Here’s two good reads on the hypocrisy of Palin and her buddy Gingrich on health care and end of life decisions…

    http://trueslant.com/matttaibbi/2009/08/12/newt-gingrich-changes-whats-left-of-his-mind-on-end-of-life-care/

    http://www.adn.com/life/health/story/864670.html

    Based on the info on the health care system in Alaska – Palin definitely has no credibility on the issue.

  • themaverickformerlyknownasbasilbrush

    I see that The Last of the Pumohicans is still going strong. The real translation of what pluk says is:
    .
    I used to be a crank, but now the US has dared to elect a black man, I’ve decided to become a kook as well.
    .
    As for the idea that we need to refute the dishonest nonsense you spout – no, not really. The best treatment for trolls is silent contempt.

  • emadraouf

    Why should we listen to anything that comes out of her mouth. Just a bunch of hot air we no substance.

    http://emadraouf.blogspot.com/

  • thehummelr

    Really! This has become one of my pet peeves. Call a spade a spade.

  • reasonrocks

    THANKS YOU! Finally the first reasoned posting I’ve seen from a consertive point of view. Listen, a LOT of Obama supporters have concerns and would love to see, hear, read… real and factual arguments and debate on this topic. It’s extremely important that we all hash this out. Being someone who’s seen the suffering our current system imposes on many less fortunate, I fully support Obama’s efforts to reform healthcare. This, of course, doesn’t mean that nefarious elements couldn’t pervert his good intentions. WE ALL NEED TO READ, LEARN, AND DEBATE rationally amongst ourselves. Talk to your neighbors, learn about their concerns. Why do they support or oppose healthcare reform. Listen first, then, they might be in a better position to hear your concerns. I don’t hate anybody because they fear this plan–they have GOOD REASON to fear it, because it’s written by politicians. Make your logical, fact based concerns known to your legislators.If you don’t care for your fellow american: black, white, dem, repub, lib, etc.. Then how do you call yourself a true american? Our moral center is that of human rights, equal opportunity, justice, fairness. These are not just Christian values, they are human values. If you care not if your neighbor lives or dies–you’re not just un-american… you’re inhuman.

  • nmrichardson

    I have another thing to say which has been bothering me. Why is it that those of us who wish to discuss the healthcare issue are being villified by the conservatives? It’s almost as if a person who wants to talk about it is immediately un-American and a socialist. Doesn’t that concern everyone that we cannot even have a debate or discussion about this? If we do not agree with the conservatives then we are evil, communistic, and going to hell. The last I checked nothing has even been decided yet. This is an open discussion at the moment. I really have a problem with the idea that it is almost illegal now to disagree with the conservatives and to have an open, public debate about social issues. I hope that all Americans, conservative, liberal, down the middle or whatever, take a look at this behavior and find that it frightens them as well.

  • reasonrocks

    I’ll just say one thing… in regards to medicare waste.. NO MORE FREE SCOOTERS! Companies like this are the parasites that drain the medicare coffers. They are overpriced and underused. Expensive home care items like this should be leased or loaned, not given. They could then be redistributed to those in need. They should be available, but it shouldn’t be “call this number and we’ll say whatever we have to get weasil a free scooter our of uncle sam for you.” A more logical approach would give tax credits for retail establishments to provide electric carts to shoppers in need. (if granny can’t walk well, she can’t load or scooter to go to kmart either.) Don’t be supprised that it’s companies like this most vocal about any changes to the system—don’t rock the boat, they’ve got a good thing going…

    I’d love if we could show the media and the politicians that we’re not as dumb as they think. WE WILL NOT BE DIVIDED. Such divisions take our collective power as a people away. Don’t be a libtard, don’t be a wingnut.. be an American.

  • nathan7777

    So you think government reimbursement for hip replacement surgery for the terminally ill is not a “difficult moral issue”? Explain.

  • http://acmeanvil.wordpress.com/ acmeanvil

    “you’re going to see what’s happening in Canada or Britain.”

    What I see happening in Canada and Britain is a bunch of their citizens getting really p*ssed at wingnuts lying about their health care systems.

    The Stephen Hawking lie was especially rich.

  • spob
  • spob

    http://www.conservatives4palin.com/2009/08/guess-who-started-all-this-talk-about.html
    .
    Here’s a quote from St. Barack:

    “And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that’s part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It’s not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance.”
    .
    You cannot rip on Palin without mentioning this quote. Come on Michael, be a little non-biased.

  • dla2s

    nmrichardson: thats the way they play the game. remember bush. if you dont agree with me on Iraq then your unpatriotic. Even scared some of the democats in office. It worked before so why wouldnt it work again.

  • justfishn

    I find it ironic that many comments made clear that Scherer’s works in the past were less than inspiring, and yet when he writes about something you agree on, then he has your whole hearted support. I would be more impressed with a rational debate over its merits. Instead I see itching ears acclaiming this as a masterpiece. I find it ironic that every big news report makes people look stupid who bring into question the new health care program. (I find that more than answers) I’m unsure at this point as to the merits of this program but would be willing to discuss it. I think Palin’s point may be vital in how we might safeguard our senior’s from a denigrated society who don’t value their contributions. I also want to know how the costs for this program will be taken care of. I thought John Mackay’s piece interesting (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html)

  • 53_3

    “I think Palin’s point may be vital in how we might safeguard our senior’s from a denigrated society who don’t value their contributions.
    .
    You need to go back to the fishin hole. I’m a senior, and I feel far less comfortable with Palin’s relentless stupidity than I do with Obama’s fairly accurate comments.
    .
    btw, happy thanksgiving…

  • kciredefr

    nmrichardson:

    “I have another thing to say which has been bothering me. Why is it that those of us who wish to discuss the healthcare issue are being villified by the conservatives? It’s almost as if a person who wants to talk about it is immediately un-American and a socialist. Doesn’t that concern everyone that we cannot even have a debate or discussion about this? If we do not agree with the conservatives then we are evil, communistic, and going to hell. The last I checked nothing has even been decided yet. This is an open discussion at the moment. I really have a problem with the idea that it is almost illegal now to disagree with the conservatives and to have an open, public debate about social issues. I hope that all Americans, conservative, liberal, down the middle or whatever, take a look at this behavior and find that it frightens them as well.”


    Let’s keep the facts straight. You DO realize that most of those who promote this government-run health care program (which includes coverage for illegal immigrants) use some fairly nasty words to describe the portion of Americans who oppose the plan; … yes? … no?

    I am a Republican living in California, the state with the highest population of welfare recipients in the whole country. I support the notion that unencumbered businesses provide more jobs and automatically stimulate a good economy, especially when those businesses and employees aren’t overly taxed.

    If we raise our concerns and voice opposition to a poorly written proposals, we’re called un-American, racists, uncaring, greedy and immoral (and worse), even though we provide gifts to several local and national charities, and pay more than our fair share through a myriad of taxes to cover numerous programs for the impoverished, uninsured and illegal aliens residing here already.

    As for any proposed new health-care policies, I’d like to make sure all American LEGAL CITIZENS have the opportunity to view the prospective plans and get to VOTE on the matter, rather than the majority of democrats voting on an another unread bill (like the stimulus bill) just to be able to say, “hey, we did it”.

    Being that the ‘elected’ politicians here are mostly democrats, my political views are typically tossed out the window. I am not represented by any of our politicians and they could actually care less about what I think – evidenced by the lack of even a single response to numerous correspondence regarding many issues.

    It’s sounds like a real fair and efficient political system we have here, eh?

    Regardless, I try to maintain civility towards the faction who don’t agree with my political views …

  • http://mgx.com/blogs/2009/08/13/palin-stands-by-her-death-panel-comments-and-blumenauer-claims-its-mind-numbing/ Palin stands by her ‘death panel’ comments and Blumenauer claims its ‘mind numbing’ UPDATED : MGx – Musings, Essays & Ballads

    [...] Michael Scherer lets Palin have it as well The former Alaskan governor, Sarah Palin, better explains today why she is concerned about [...]

  • littleourkie

    I thought Sarah Palin was stupid before….but this beats all. Who does she think we should trust? Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh or the Republican National Committee?

    It is idiocy like this that removes any legitimacy from the conservative viewpoint.

  • redraven937

    This never fails to crack me up:

    With respect to the gov’t, the issue is that if the gov’t makes a policy choice not to fund something or to not fund enough of it, you’re going to see what’s happening in Canada or Britain.

    I would hope what happens in Canada or Britain happens here. You know, considering both countries spend LESS per capita on healthcare and have HIGHER life expectancies.

  • lwumom

    My father was 57 when he found out he had a rare neurological disease for which doctors could offer no treatment (Para-Supranuclear Palsy). He owned some land, where we had lived when we were children, and wanted to deed it to us before his condition became worse. He consulted a lawyer, who told him he needed to sell the land because he would need money to pay for his care. When the time came that he could no longer live at home, he found out that he had to use all of his savings first. After that was gone, his wife could keep $17,000 a year of her salary. Everything else had to go to his nursing home care. My Dad wanted to “leave” something to his children, but because of bad advice, he died (the day before his 63rd birthday) feeling that he’d made a mistake and that he was a burden to his family. I’m sure he would have wanted counseling from someone who knew how the system worked and could advise him about those decisions.

  • plukasiak

    I am a Republican living in California, the state with the highest population of welfare recipients in the whole country…..Let’s keep the facts straight. You DO realize that most of those who promote this government-run health care program (which includes coverage for illegal immigrants) use some fairly nasty words to describe the portion of Americans who oppose the plan; … yes? … no?…If we raise our concerns and voice opposition to a poorly written proposals, we’re called un-American, racists
    _
    perhaps the reason you are called “racist” is related to your lies about coverage of “illegal immigrants”.
    _
    here’s a clue. none of the proposals (“this government run health care program) provide coverage for illegal immigrants above and beyond the coverage already offered for undocumented children and in emergency rooms under life-threatening conditions.
    _
    In other words, you’re full of crap in a very specific way that suggests that racism is at the heart of your willingness to spew lies.
    _
    and what does welfare rates in California have to do with the subject of health care reform. Because a disproportionate percentage of welfare recipients are black and hispanic, the inclusion of the “welfare” information, when juxtaposed with the lie about the proposal providing care for “illegal immigrants” merely reinforces the impression that you’re just a racist scumbag.

  • spob

    “Forget about the “health,” too. Proponents of government health care like to point out that in the United States life expectancy is 78.11 years, whereas in Ireland it’s 78.24 years, Germany 79.26, New Zealand 80.36 and Canada 81.23 years. For a while now, I’ve taken to responding that, once a society gets childhood mortality under control and observes basic hygiene, it’ll swing through its three-score-and-ten with the bonus of a few frequent-flyer miles at the end, and then I’ll usually cite a less obvious comparison: Libya? 77.26 years. Albania? 77.96 years. Bosnia and Herzegovina? 78.5. Boy, nothing like civil war and ethnic genocide to ramp up those life-expectancy numbers! And any American approaching his 78th birthday and minded to emigrate to Canada or, better yet, Macau (life expectancy 84.36 years) should bear in mind that these variations likely owe more to factors other than the health system—i.e., the high homicide rate among the African-American community, and other subjects from which the multiculturally squeamish would rather avert their gaze. And sure, when you’re getting up there, an extra three years in Thunder Bay or Trois-Rivières sounds pretty sweet, even if you’ll be spending much of it with your legs crossed: a recent report in Le Journal de Montréal revealed that severely incontinent Quebecers (that’s to say, going to the bathroom 12 times a night) wait up to three years for a simple half-hour procedure that could give them a decent night’s sleep.”

  • themaverickformerlyknownasbasilbrush

    Just to point out one fact about spob: he is a plagiarist, a common, vulgar thief. If you doubt this, google the following phrase from his rant:
    .
    “an extra three years in Thunder Bay or Trois-Rivières sounds pretty sweet”
    .
    This is the source spob plagiarized:
    .
    http://www.steynonline.com/content/view/2271/

  • merightuwrong

    spob: way to keep fighting the rhetoric with facts. Don’t let their namecalling stop you from proliferating the truth.

    Life expectancy has very little to do with this debate, and if anyone on this board did any research into why the medical costs in this country are so high, they wouldn’t be finding the correlation between spending tax dollars to counsel the elderly, who just so happen to cost the most, on how to calmly end their days and the proposed legislation’s language so outlandish.

    If people want to have that discussion with their doctor FINE, just don’t use my tax dollars to do it!

  • merightuwrong

    Funny what a taste of his/her own medicine will do to a liberal.

  • http://botd.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/top-posts-1205/ Top Posts « WordPress.com

    [...] Sarah Palin, M.D. The former Alaskan governor, Sarah Palin, better explains today why she is concerned about President Obama’s [...] [...]

  • libra1947

    If Sarah Palin had half a brain, she would walk lopsided. Why do people waste their time listening to do ? Oops, i guess i just did too.

  • http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/08/24/the-republican-partys-no-line-on-health-care/ The Republican Party’s “No” Line On Health Care – Swampland – TIME.com

    [...] in Congress beyond Emanuel's authorship and the fact that he works at the White House, Emanuel says it would be inappropriate to apply the age-test to health care [...]

  • http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/09/02/the-rise-and-fall-of-levi-johnson/ Levi Johnson In Vanity Fair, Exposing The Sarah Palin Secrets And Himself. – Swampland – TIME.com

    [...] in need of any private life take down. She is quickly succumbing to her own worst habits, posting distorted opinion pieces on her Facebook account, and, more recently, advising everyone to watch Glenn Beck, a man who [...]

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