Health Care Mobs: Week #2

Liberals use the blood of Trig Palin in their cookies. I heard this on Fox I think.

Somehow, Republicans must be to blame for this massive astroturfing boondoggle.

(At least the report seemed fair…)

If you allow the mob’s under Republican control to take over this is what you end up with:

uesday, March 22, 2005 Sun Hudson, a six-month old Texas baby died last week when health care providers at Texas Children’s Hospital in Houston, Texas removed his life support system over the objections of his mother. The action was authorized under the 1999 Futile Care Law which was signed into law by then-Gov. George W. Bush.

Under the Texas Futile Care Law, health care workers are allowed to remove expensive life support for terminally ill patients if the patient or family is unable to pay the medical bills.

Sun Hudson’s mother is dealing with the aftermath of that law. “This hospital was considered a miracle hospital. When it came to my son, they gave up in six months,” Wanda Hudson told reporters how she was forced to give up medical control of her son. “I talked to him, I told him that I loved him. Inside of me, my son is still alive.”

The hospital had blocked the media from the child, despite mother’s invitation to see the baby. “I wanted y’all to see my son for yourself. So you could see he was actually moving around. He was conscious,” she said.

The event stirred national attention as it sparked comparisons to the Terri Schiavo case in Florida. A victim of severe, and otherwise terminal brain damage, Terri Schiavo’s future is locked in a legal battle between her husband who wants to remove life support and her parents, who cite religious reasons for keeping their daughter alive.

Michael Schiavo, husband of Terri Schiavo, was asked about the Hudson situation on the March 21 edition of CNN’s Larry King Live. When King asked how Mr. Schiavo felt when he learned that President Bush had signed such a law in Texas while he was governor, Schiavo was at a loss of words.

But Schiavo’s lawyer did respond, saying, “Obviously, there’s a tremendous amount of hypocrisy there … it would lead one to believe that a lot of this was politically motivated, and I think that’s what the American people have concluded.” Schiavo’s lawyer echoed the sentiments of Florida Representative Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, a Democrat, who raised the “hypocrisy” question when she first mentioned the 1999 Texas law issue on the House floor last week.

Over the weekend, President Bush signed a special federal law that moved jurisdiction of the Schiavo case out of the state of Florida and into the U.S. federal court system after Florida courts ruled that Michael Schiavo had the right to remove Terri’s life support, which includes a feeding tube and intravenous liquids.

After signing the Schiavo Law Sunday, President Bush said, “It is wisest to always err on the side of life.”

Hypocrisy. Perhaps. Mere recognition of a fatal error and subsequent change of opinion. Also possible. If I recall, Kerry was not a ‘flip-flopper’ or a ‘hypocrite,’ he just merely altered his views. Why is this any less believable here? Why are people no longer allowed to have evolutionary perspectives that change over time without being called hypocrites? Would we rather people adhere to rigid preconceptions regardless of a change of heart?

The lobbyist-run groups Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks, which orchestrated the anti-Obama tea parties earlier this year, are now pursuing an aggressive strategy to create an image of mass public opposition to health care and clean energy reform. A leaked memo from Bob MacGuffie, a volunteer with the FreedomWorks website Tea Party Patriots, details how members should be infiltrating town halls and harassing Democratic members of Congress:

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http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/31/recess-harassment-memo/

Is my head tilted slightly to the right or has the Swamp italicized itself?

Steve Pearlstein: “Health reform is a test of whether this country can function once again as a civil society. Whether we can trust ourselves to embrace the big, important changes that require everyone to give up something in order to make everyone better off.”

Better than Ezra’s response: “That doesn’t mean Obama’s bill. It could mean a compromise like Wyden-Bennett, or something else. But what’s going on out there isn’t about a specific bill. It’s about the fear of change. It doesn’t really allow for negotiations and counter-offers. And it is very, very ugly.”

Completely off-topic, but Ms. Tumulty is SUPPOSED to be on vacation, isn’t she?

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Yes you make a point. No two wrongs don’t make a right. However we live in a world where power hungry monsters are seeking to subvert human decency. Those same monsters change the rules far too often and get away with it.

Nice observation. So goes the word on the street.

Bill Maher on the stupidity of Americans.

A portrait that’s hard to argue with, though he neglects to illustrate the epic failure of education or media.

Keep a large enough segment of your population ignorant and it’ll be ever so much easier to rule.

The mobs and Palin are like a car wreck you can’t stop yourself from looking at in shock and horror.

I think we need for KT to eschew her “I’m not a media critic” and become a media critic now. The media is, by-in-large, doing an atrocious job of covering what is happening,and what is happening is spiraling out of control. With the exception of Rachel Maddow – who makes an impassioned plea for the msm to do its job right now:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/32337941#32337941

A letter Andrew Sullivan posted today:

“Your obvious shock and dismay at the sheer angry ignorance of the health care teabaggers reiterates my largest problem with your rosy immigrant’s view of America. You have often underestimated just how poisonously dangerous the American populist right is.

I don’t blame you. You came to America after the rise of Reagan. Most of your life in America, you have lived under different Republican presidents who placated these folks with platitudes and campaign rhetoric. The one period when the populist right didn’t feel they had a fellow traveler in charge was when Bill Clinton was elected (thanks to the reactionaries splitting their votes). You remember, no doubt, the level of crazy Clinton had to defuse and dodge, and this was a man who had the advantage of being a Southern bubba who has dealt which such people all his life.

For most of your time in America, this insanity has been muted by the success of conservative politics. Since you live in Washington, you probably saw daily the face of the successful conservative political establishment that milked the populist right, and by milking them kept their bitterness at a manageable level. That safety valve was stuffed up by George Bush’s failed presidency.

So now, these people are facing their worst fears; actual change.
A political and demographic re-alignment is happening before their eyes, and they are reaching back into their old bag of tricks of intimidation, violence, and apocalyptic fearmongering. You are British, Andrew. You love this country, and we love you for it. But you didn’t grow up around these folks, and you don’t realize what a permanent and potent part of the American political landscape they are.

They have always been with us, the people who believed in manifest destiny, who delighted in the slaughter of this land’s original inhabitants, who cheered a nation into a civil war to support an economic system of slavery that didn’t even benefit them. They are the people who bashed the unions and cheered on the anti-sedition laws, who joined the Pinkertons and the No Nothing Party, who beat up Catholic immigrants and occasionally torched the black part of town. They rode through the Southern pine forests at night, they banned non-European immigration, they burned John Rockefeller Jr. in effigy for proposing the Grand Tetons National Park.

These are the folks who drove Teddy Roosevelt out of the Republican Party and called his cousin Franklin a communist, shut their town’s borders to the Okies and played the protectionist card right up til Pearl Harbor, when they suddenly had a new foreign enemy to hate. They are with us, the John Birchers, the anti-flouride and black helicopter nuts, the squirrly commie-hating hysterics who always loved the loyalty oath, the forced confession, the auto-de-fe. Those who await with baited breath the race war, the nuclear holocaust, the cultural jihad, the second coming, they make up much more of America then you would care to think.

I’m always optimistic about America. We’re a naturally rich and beautiful place. Every generation we renew ourselves with a watering of immigrants committed to the American dream, immigrants like you. But please, Andrew, do not for a second underestimate the price in blood and tears we’ve always paid here for progress.

I voted for Obama with my fingers crossed, because I knew that as the populist right lost power, they would become more extreme, more concentrated, and more violent. As to dismissing them as only a quarter or so of America, please remember that it only took a quarter or so of Americans to actively support the Confederacy.”

Facts are commie socialist lovers of liberal fascism.

Real Americans™ don’t tolerate facts.
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KT — Perhaps it would have been better to go with the punt than switch your play to just falling on the ball.
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This story is about powerful corporate interests, using every means at its disposal to maintain the status quo in a year of record profits. What started as a troubling trend may turn out to be a crossing of the line into paying operatives to break laws, including the impersonation of minority groups, possible mail fraud, and preventing American citizens from participating in the Democratic process and the free exercise of their first amendment rights. This story is more about what’s coming out of 1726 M St than whose coming out of a town hall in Austin. But thanks for doing everything in your power to trivialize a story you first said you would look into, then said you passed off and have since tried twice to marginalize by making it about Sarah “gotta love the crazy” Palin and now about some average mom in Austin. You should be embarrassed by local reporters, working for local news outlets (just so you know it’s not bloggers since you have a tendency to let you disdain for new media cloud your judgment) who have taken the time to identify some of these average people and expose them as party operatives.
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I guess education is not the only industry suffering from the benign neglect of low expectations.

Your beloved KT is doing more than just poor reporting. She is going the extra step of trying to minimize and trivialize this story.

Time magazine calls a clueless, community organizing socialist “Dr. Obama”, calls a corrupt congressman “The Lion of Harlem”, and now Karen Tumulty rhapsodizes that a leftist loon named Doggett “was not going to be deterred” in pushing Obama’s socialized medicine scheme. Isn’t it time for Time magazine to hail (again) Michelle “For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country” Obama with another fawning cover story? Get busy, Time magazine ….

Dee, pardon my ignorance, what exactly is “1726 M St”? I’m assuming that is where perhaps a number of Beltway lobbyist operations are, but would like to know for sure.

I hope this teaches KT not to post on Saturdays ever again. What a pissy lot we are today.

Seriously, tempers are flaring today. I need to recuse myself from further discussion for the evening lest I ruin my entire weekend.

An emotionally overwrought sojourn into synecdochal Time and Space, the standard three-paragraph screed is apparently abandoned. Airborne fist-beating against Time Magazine’s illustrious journalists is as unsatisfying as a bowl full of tofu. D-

We may need to stage an intervention here. KT, put down the laptop and go on vacation PLEASE! We promise to be good while you’re gone! We do we do we do!

It’s also the possibility she just wanted to give us weekend beef before she left us to our lonesomes. She’s good like that.

Wow: textee in paranoid mode, Fellas, us Americans are an ignorant lot. We allow trolls to talk to us. And they respond producing bilge. My Marine father will turn in his grave. He gave his life for these clowns.

It really depends on how the tofu’s cooked JLA. If necessary get JC-san’s wife to share a few recipes, but yeah, plain tofu can be pretty much bleah. Oh and spot on analysis there.
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I can haz betr trollz plz? Kthxbi!

textee, where’s your birth certificate?

No offense meant, yutsano. I’m a steak and ale guy, but to each his or her own.

Incoherence is not a sign of “keeping it real”.
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Just saying

Nobody should be surprised at textee at this point.

… AND while everyone is being distracted, TAXES are going up.

LET’S NOT BELIEVE THE DOUBLE-SPEAK FROM THE W.H.

Ignoring economic reality is more than simply idiotic. Unemployment is not dropping, and taxes for the middle class are going up.

http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/2009/08/obama-middle-class-income-tax-increases.html

…..Keep saving every dime you can for tomorrow.

There is no middle-class tax increase.
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Fact-free. Pig-ignorant as they say in Tennessee…..
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Get a brain moran.

Setting aside my feelings about the nature of the reform Obama is selling, I’d say this is not quite up to “the crazy” they’re confronting:

“I know the president believes strongly that we can discuss these issues without personally maligning the person that we’re discussing this issue with, that we’re doing so in a way that respects the dignity of each individual.”

-Robert Gibbs

So, sure, respect the ignorant spitting neanderthals, b/c of course we can rely on our intrepid call-bullsh!t media, right? We have the likes of Halp and his fanboy MS to sort through the crazy on behalf of all Americans, dedicated to reporting the truth, right?

Via Yglesias, the only sane Republican remaining on the planet Earth David Frum muses:

What if We Win the Healthcare Fight?

The problem is that if we do that… we’ll still have the present healthcare system. Meaning that we’ll have (1) flat-lining wages, (2) exploding Medicaid and Medicare costs and thus immense pressure for future tax increases, (3) small businesses and self-employed individuals priced out of the insurance market, and (4) a lot of uninsured or underinsured people imposing costs on hospitals and local governments.

Even worse will be the way this fight is won: basically by convincing older Americans already covered by a government health program, Medicare, that Obama’s reform plans will reduce their coverage. In other words, we’ll have sent a powerful message to the entire political system to avoid at all hazards any tinkering with Medicare except to make it more generous for the already covered.

If we win, we’ll trumpet the success as a great triumph for liberty and individualism. Really though it will be a triumph for inertia. To the extent that anybody in the conservative world still aspires to any kind of future reform and improvement of America’s ossified government, that should be a very ashy victory indeed.

Dumbasses.

James, no need to pardon yourself, it was an obscure reference to an address given out by Rachel Maddow on her show the other night. It’s the offices of Americans For Prosperity. The corporate operatives responsible for the busloads of tea-baggers at a town hall near you. I only keep bringing it up to Karen because she seems to imply that from her DC location she has no handle on this story. But the corporate angle needs to be pursued in down town DC. The 1726 is an office building near the corner of 17th and M Street. While the media acts like they can’t find out about this story, the headquarters for this group are located right across the street from the Human Rights Campaign, next door to the League of Women Voters, across the garage from ABC news and the Mayflower Hotel, that they managed to find when they were looking for the hotel room of Ex-Governor Spitzer and his female companion. These operatives conduct their business in the same building that houses a Democratic polling firm, a Democratic fundraising firm, Pflag and the DC Bureau of the UK’s Independent. Clearly, someone should be able to fill in a few more blanks even if its just from the folks smoking cigarettes out in front of the building or sipping a latte from the coffee shop next door. The point is that these folks are not hiding behind a P.O. Box, they are not orchestrating their brand of dirty political tricks from some untouchable boiler room.

Thanks, Dee.
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I think beltway journos are afraid to pursue this end of the story. As you pointed out in another thread, these conservatives are part of the social network of elite DC, and no one wants to write about the sleazy and even illegal doings of upper middle-class people who attend the same cocktail parties. It would be ummm, uncomfortable. And too, that guy just might be your brother-in-law. Campbell Brown, for example, is married to the rightwing operative Dan Senor, former bushie and chief spokesperson for the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq. You think she’s going to report on anything? Hunh. It’s all corrupt. Profoundly corrupt.

J-LA, did you ever hear about Gov. Bob Riley’s Amendment 1 in Alabama? Here was a republican who, unlike Arnie, decided to try to do what was right, and the very people his plan would have helped were too dumb to recognize it.

http://www.time.com/time/columnist/frank/article/0,9565,476249,00.html

Sadly, Alabama or America, is it all that different. The pied-pipers lead the anti-intellectuals around, the media takes a collective pass…

@ James, Los Ang…

Developing your expertise at insults doesn’t educate either you or your reader.

Get some knowledge, then contribute. It’s not hard. … And good luck.

James–
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You got it, it’s all one big incestuous mess and If you talk about it they call you a conspiracy theorist. If you want a true picture think high school cafeteria and you’ve got it covered. Those who worked hard to win a seat at the cool table, will do anything to keep it. And if you don’t belong (ala new media)…

Bite me. I’m under no obligation to debate pig ignorant wingnut liars. And I’m under no obligation to be nice. You bring some facts to the table and we can talk.

I remember that, JC. Thanks for the reminder. Sane Republicans are a thing of the past. Shame, my dad was one of them. I didn’t agree with him a lot, but he wasn’t INSANE. Sigh.

All the people conducting shouting matches at town hall meetings probably have health care coverage. They complain that it will be too expensive to cover all these Americans.

You didn’t hear them complain when Bush spent over a trillion dollars on the Iraq war. A war waged over a lie. They fed us false information and invaded Iraq. Where was the outrage then by all these conservatives.

I have to believe a lot of this violence is being orchestrated by people wanting to do harm to Obama.

Even people with supposedly good health insurance get sick, lose their assets and then their homes. Wake up people!
Private health insurers don’t give a damn about you.

I know Charles Lane has an oped in WaPo today that Sully tries to say is “reasoned” and I have seen it referenced in another thread. But the thing about it is Lane is selling the same old euthanasia cannard just in a prettier package. The major flaw in his argument is that he acknowledges that it will be doctors getting paid for these end of life consultations. Well ask yourself a question, who is the only group that has a profit motive to actually tell the elderly to hold on forever no matter if they are in a vegetative state and on life support or not?

Doctors and hospitals, thats who.

http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/2009/08/hole-big-enough-to-drive-bus-through.html

As for KT’s post the thing of it is no Villager reporter is going to report heavily on the mobs and take sides on it until someone gets shot or severely injured. Then there will be a whole lot of “We never could have predicted” from the media. And a whole lot of “don’t judge us by the fringe person who has mental problems” from the GOP. And everybody will decide that nobody is at fault and they will bravely, respectuflly, move on from it.

It is what it is. Just keep waiting for it to happen, and then wait for the aftermath. It has all become predictible at this point.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/08/think_progress_msnbc_manufactu.asp

That’s already been debunked. Sorry, but that’s a smear of a smear.

You know, Dee, I think we ought to be talking about it. It isn’t conspiracy fodder at all, and even some journos will admit it privately. For example, Juleana Glover, former press secretary for John Ashcroft and Dick Cheney, is consistently one of the hottest parties in town. She throws book parties for all the insider journos. It’s one big backslapping round of cocktail bonhomie. This link is Juleana’s book party for Dana Milbank: Beltway Confidential: Washington book party imitates Washington book. Incestuous? You bet!

(SIDEBAR: I hate that links aren’t colored and there are no paragraph breaks in the “Reply to” comments. What’s that all about?)

Uhmmm pacificgatepost

Aren’t you the same dummy who said middle class taxes are going up? That’s pretty rich to tell someone else to get some knowledge when you are freebasing “teh stupid”.

As for KT’s post the thing of it is no Villager reporter is going to report heavily on the mobs and take sides on it until someone gets shot or severely injured.

Does the name Kenneth Gladney ring a bell?

Wow…just wow.

Excuse me, smear of smears.

You mean Gladney the ST Louis cop who beat up a union guy and maced the woman he was with? Who’s lawyer has gone on G Gordon Liddy’s show to claim Gladney was “injured” when the video clearly shows he is not? Try again, dumbass.

So ground zero for the entire mob movement has become civil?There’s hope for us all…

http://www.political-buzz.com/

http://www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/politics/2009/08/08/palin_death_panels/index.html
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This says all that needs to be said – and it would be nice if Tumulty did some real reporting, rather than pulling a Palin and scurrying off on holiday when the going got tough.

Verb

* S: (v) debunk, expose (expose while ridiculing; especially of pretentious or false claims and ideas) “The physicist debunked the psychic’s claims”

No, yoshiattack. The Weakly Standard (unsurprisingly) has debunked nothing. They’ve come up with a cover story.

Which are you going to believe: credible eyewitnesses, or Bill Kristol’s neocon lie factory?

I recall when you wore the mask of “sensible conservative” on this blog.

People like Juan Cole have figured this out. Maybe there is hope for you, who knows.
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oh yoshi, why do you make it so easy?

http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.com/2009/08/videos-after-walking-away-from-town.html

If this is the guy that you want to hitch your wagon to, by all means feel free. Kinda goes against everything conservatives say they are about though, but hey thats kinda par for the course, no?

Lane’s problem is he thinks it is all about him. He has the financial means and knowledge to do this so those that do not, do not matter.

There are a lot of people who do not know how or where to go to get a living will, and not the financial means to do so. The other counseling will be beneficial. I have not had to go through this with a loved one so do not know what is available.

What? If Gladney is the perpetrator, then how come he wasn’t the one arrested?
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I’d wait for a little bit before passing judgment on his injuries, but what is not in dispute is that he is not the one being charged with a beating here. How you can spin this into the conservative being the attacker is beyond me.
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By the way, James, you might want to get off that high horse. Let’s keep this civil, eh?

Verb

* S: (v) debunk, expose (expose while ridiculing; especially of pretentious or false claims and ideas) “The physicist debunked the psychic’s claims”

No, yoshiattack. The Weakly Standard (unsurprisingly) has debunked nothing. They’ve come up with a cover story.

Which are you going to believe: credible eyewitnesses, or Bill Kristol’s neocon lie factory?

I recall when you wore the mask of “sensible conservative” on this blog.

People like Juan Cole have figured this out. Maybe there is hope for you, who knows.

Let me sum up your post…
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1: Dictionary entry
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2: Accusation of conspiracy
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3: Smear!
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4: Attempt at shaming
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5: Condescending insult
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The memo passed from a group that maintained a Facebook membership of about 23 at the time of writing. The fact that the founder did some blogging for a coalition partner of FreedomWorks means that FreedomWorks distributed the memo? Hah.
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Talk about astroturfing…can a DNC memo instructing Obama supporters to hit the town halls and a call for the SEIU to intervene be anything but top down? Eh, I suppose it doesn’t fit the definition. They’re not trying to hide it.

yoshi,
I have no intention of being “civil” to rightwing lying thugs and drama queens. And you appear to be a dumbass patsy of the extreme right for posting that ridiculous Gladney comment. I don’t feel obligated to be “nice” to willfully obtuse liars. Bring some facts to the table for a change.

So, pacificgatepost, which is it – are you a liar, or merely a fool?

Go ahead and tie your credibility to Bill Kristol’s.
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You’ve got nothing to lose.
~

Hope this Ezra Klein column does not happen.
The Republicans to win on the public option is not a good deal, they only have to give up mandatory.
Why does Graham think that what the Insurance Co., want is a perfect deal. Dems give up everything?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/08/is_there_a_deal_to_be_made_on.html

Junius, name one other reporter out there who is covering the DC angles like KT has been doing for the last five months. I think she’s more than entitled to get back in touch with Mr Swamp and the Swampkids.

Someone explain to me exactly what credibility Lindsay has on this issue. Is he the only person who would talk to Ezra or something?

Yoshi
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You strike me as somebody that hate’s arguing on blogs because you know you end up leaving evidence all over the place.
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First you block quoted my comment about someone getting shot or severly injured and said.
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Does the name Kenneth Gladney ring a bell?
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Wow…just wow.

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Then when I present direct evidence that Gladney is a fraud and he is not severely injured in the least, you say.
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I’d wait for a little bit before passing judgment on his injuries, but what is not in dispute is that he is not the one being charged with a beating here.

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Sorry buddy, the entire premise of your response to me was that Gladney had already been either “shot or severely injured” otherwise your comment had absolutely no relevance to my comment.
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I know conservatives are bound and determined never to do it but you might want to just admit you were wrong and keep it moving. Gladney is going to make you and everybody else on your side who is holding him up as some kind of martyr looking like the biggest hypocrites on earth.

@pacificgatepost
Here’s your “middle class taxes going up” you lying sack of sh!t:
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FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Obama Has Cut Taxes for 98.6 Percent of Working* Households**

Let’s take a look at the tax cuts contained in the stimulus package in a little bit more detail. First is the Making Work Pay tax credit. As I mentioned, this applies to single filers making less than $95,000 and joint filers making less than $190,000. Using the IRS tax tables that I linked to earlier, this means that about 102 million taxpayers, or about 92.4 percent of “working” tax filers, will be eligible for the credit.

Then there’s the AMT reduction. The Tax Policy Center has helpfully estimated the percentage of Americans who are subject to the AMT by income bracket. For instance, about 79.2 percent of earners between $100,000 and $200,000 should be subject to the AMT by this time, according to estimates that the Tax Policy Center put together a couple of years ago. All told, this works out to about 24 million tax filers according to the estimates that I linked to above, or 26 million according to newer (but unfortunately much less detailed) estimates. If we perform this calculation for each income bracket based on the 24 million figure, this includes about 6.8 million tax filers who are not eligible for the Making Work Pay tax credit.

That leaves only about 1.6 million working tax filers who will not benefit from either the Making Work Pay credit or the AMT patch.

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I’ll await your abject apology for being so very, so flamingly, wrong.

Wow. Ideology seems to numb the brain just a little too much, then suddenly you can’t read anymore, and common sense vacates the premisses.

But, dumb or not, if you’re a taxpayers, you’re on the hook for the deficit one way or another, and your taxes are going up. Enjoy it. And the more the government monetizes or borrows to fund its spending the more apparently you’ll enjoy it.

So, Graham’s on board with the Wyden plan. So’s Joe Klein. My pessimism has increased by six orders of magnitude all of a sudden. Wonder why.

James LA
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Because there is no public option in Wyden’s plan. Expect to see a lot more Repubs become co sponsers because they know it has no chance of passing but it gives the appearance that they want reform too.

@ James, Los Ang…

Oh no. …. Another genius who thinks the “Rich will pay for it all.” Well, that’s it then. That should take care of it. Well done. If you actually have job, let’s see where you are a year from now.

Yutsano, there are plenty of reporters who offer the same innocuous pap that KT has been serving up recently. As for the idea that one should go on holiday rather than deal with the facts on the ground i.e. the mobs at townhalls, this may be a natural human reaction, but it is hardly what one should expect from a committed journalist.

KT (enjoy your vacation, please):
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The crowd of about 300, maybe two-thirds supporting the Democratic healthcare bill and a third in opposition, gathered at a strip shopping center anticipating Doggett’s appearance at an open house for CommunityCare, a federally qualified health center.

Here’s the question that “Hilary Hylton, our colleague in Austin” should have specifically answered:
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What number (if any) of the participants in the “crowd” were assembled and instructed by professional organizers paid by parties interested in the outcome of health insurance reform legislative negotiations?
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Were the demonstrations in question largely genuine and spontaneous popular expressions of a widespread ideological or concerned constituency, i.e.

November 1989: East Germans danced on the Berlin wall and the Communist regime began to collapse. A unique revolution occurred: changes were brought about by peaceful, spontaneous demonstrations. No group organized the famous gatherings of thousands of people at the Karl Marx Square in Leipzig on October 9, 1989.

, or were they public relations events, professionally organized by experienced operatives, and conducted at the behest of agents in the service of those with the political and economic power to create influential media spectacles designed to confuse and corrupt the legislative process in their favor, i.e.

This morning, Politico reported that Democratic members of Congress are increasingly being harassed by “angry, sign-carrying mobs and disruptive behavior” at local town halls. For example, in one incident, right-wing protesters surrounded Rep. Tim Bishop (D-NY) and forced police officers to have to escort him to his car for safety.
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This growing phenomenon is often marked by violence and absurdity. Recently, right-wing demonstrators hung Rep. Frank Kratovil (D-MD) in effigy outside of his office. Missing from the reporting of these stories is the fact that much of these protests are coordinated by public relations firms and lobbyists who have a stake in opposing President Obama’s reforms.
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The lobbyist-run groups Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks, which orchestrated the anti-Obama tea parties earlier this year, are now pursuing an aggressive strategy to create an image of mass public opposition to health care and clean energy reform. A leaked memo from Bob MacGuffie, a volunteer with the FreedomWorks website Tea Party Patriots, details how members should be infiltrating town halls and harassing Democratic members of Congress…

?
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It seems as if this is a question that must be answered by journalists covering these events, otherwise reporters may be effectively participating in the events to the benefit of the orchestrators –simply by covering them. Journalists who fail to do so may turn out to essentially be paid participants in an democracy-subverting reality show.
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It’s actually a simple question; it just takes authentic investigators working to get the answer.
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Are these or are these not professional political-media stunts?
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Is what we’re seeing and reading about another modern-day version of the public relations strategies of Boss Taylor from “Mr. Smith Goes To Washington”

Smith faces media manipulation, false claims, and a “muzzling” of freedom of the press by the Taylor machine: “Not one word of what he’s saying is being printed in that state. Taylor has practically every paper in the state lined up and he’s feeding them doctored-up junk.”
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Saunders [the sympathetic reporter] transmits a dictation to Smith’s mother (Beulah Bondi) that will be printed in the only free press left – Jeff’s Boys Stuff publication. With the support of an army of faithful boys, the boys’ paper is type-set with the headline: “JEFF TELLS TRUTH” – the only uncensored news available to Smith’s constituents.
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With wagons and bicycles, the handbills are distributed in support of Smith, and the boys organize a parade. When the word that there is opposition reaches Taylor’s headquarters, McGann sends the word out to confiscate and destroy the Boys Stuff newspaper and disrupt the parade, resulting in injuries to many of the boys. A carload of boys distributing newspapers is deliberately forced off the road by Taylor’s forces, resulting in a gruesome crash and accident.
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Mrs. Smith phones Saunders, distressed by the repercussions: “Children hurt all over the city. Tell Jeff to stop!”

, or isn’t it?
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By simply reporting that there was “a crowd of 300″, intrepid reporter Hilary Hylton passes on the most important information a reporter can ever relay to the public: Was the event real or staged? Were people there for legitimate democratic purposes or for the purpose of attracting Hilary Hyltons to carry a specific message to a wider audience?
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Well? Are we –you– getting played or not, savvy reporters?
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If, after investigation, professional journalists can’t or won’t answer that question as a matter of fact, then there truly is no public need for that industry, and a case could be made for the value of its destruction.

Thanks for that Maddow link. (Comcast has deleted my CNN, MSNBC, and Faux news.)

“Look! Motion!”

I have read the blog link and admit to some confusion as to its point. It seems to imply that doctors will naturally advocate prolonged treatments in order to continue billing a patient.

As an RN, I’ve spent quite a bit of time talking with elderly patients and their adult children about living wills and healthcare proxies, answering their questions and exploring the various options available. Together we’ve discussed just what the patient wanted done – the patient, not the doctor or the family. Some filled out the forms, some did not, it was always their choice.

What I have consistently observed during these discussions was that most of the patients and their families supported the sense of control it gave them. Even those that chose not to fill out the forms were at least able to discuss the matter with their loved ones and make their wishes known. It spared the family the agony, and often times raging feuds, of deciding what Mom or Dad would want if they were no longer able to speak for themselves.

I do wish to emphasize one point again – it was their choice, always.

The Emergence of the Organized Rent-a-Mob Specter in Primitive Societies,” by C. Fukara, the Obsequious.

Political meetings and public discourse featuring
- unruly mobs, hired mobs,
- speakers shouted down,
- citizens that don’t hear one another, intolerance of contrary opinion,
- ill-informed, mostly functionally-illiterate, citizens who don’t know what they are so agitated about (since they have not fully read and comprehended the bill they shout about),
- noise-makers, shouts, threats of physical violence, crude wooden/plastic weapons wielded, fistcuffs flying, bodies down, clothes strewn around, speakers and guests running for dear life — pandemonium, helter skelter;
- death threats …

Aren’t we, the Americans, feeling blessed that we are not like those primitive, restless, violence-prone, native hearts in anarchist countries like Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Rwanda, Michigan, Georgia, Florida? And that we Americans are pleased to live in “our western civilization as we know it” …

Americans? Countries? Let us edit that list …

Would that be a butter or a milk substitute?

Holy crap crazy season has come to Swampland.

You folks sure were in a mood this evening. I’m sorry that I had to work. I was in the mood for a little b!tchslapping myself.

It ever stopped? Just sayin’.

I just mean all the new names cropping up posting whatever crazy bullsh*t is running through their heads at the time.
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I’m not counting the crazy bullsh*t we regulars put forth.

I’m half tempted to decorate the house for crazy season. I’m thinking maybe of having Santa sh!tting Easter Eggs with carved pumkins in the background.

lynninpa

The point of the post is that Doctors would have no financial incentive to convince people to sign on for DNRs or for euthanasia in any form for that matter.

That is not to say that they would advocate for a patient to decide to stay on life support indefinitely. But it is to say that between the two, euthanasia or living in perpetuity on life support, a doctor/hospital has a financial motivation for the latter, not the former.

Charles Lane intimated that doctors would just have reason to try to talk the elderly into allowing themselves to die early. But that just doesn’t follow any rational logic.

Hope that clears it up.

I dunno. I feel like you could step the crazy up with your decorations. Throw some clowns in there or something.

“Holy crap crazy season has come to Swampland”
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Truer words never spoken. That Palin-inspired thread is a keeper. I think the “doctor” or the “lawyer” may click “reply to this comment” to chat with one of their alternative personalities. Junius was messing with her/it, which is akin to toying with the disabled.
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And we wonder why the likes of Scherer & co. have nothing but contempt for their audience.

Steak and ale works JLA (steak in ale?), I’m just a bit more of an omnivore than most humans. That and a chocoholic.

Cliff: ... crazy season has come to Swampland. ..”

And the USA, too – according to te header of this blog.

Cliff, Swampland is where you are to be found merrily blogging. And it is said that birds of a feather flock together. Right?

Cliff: ... crazy season has come to Swampland. ..”

And the USA, too – according to the header of this blog.

Cliff, Swampland is where you are to be found merrily blogging. And it is said that birds of a feather flock together. Right?

If you are insinuating that I am crazy, then you are correct.

Konnichi wa JC-san!

“oh we’re all quite mad here my dear. I’m mad, you’re mad…”
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“Me? I’m not mad!”
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“But of course you are. If you weren’t you wouldn’t have come here.”

What-up Yuts–you ever make that trip?

I’m heading to 日本海 this week for O-bon. My wife just found some “kurage-repelling sunscreen.” I sh!ts you not. Will let you know how that works out.

Karen,

I have followed the US heath care with debate with interest and wonder why there has not, as far as I can tell, been done substantial reporting on the situation in countries currently practicing government run health care. Being Norwegian, I am fascinated about this argument about the bureaucrat standing between the patient and a doctor.

This is how it works: I have a doctor designated to me by the heath care authorities. I would be able to change to one closer to where I live, but he has been my doctor since childhood and I prefer to travel a bit to consult him. When there is something I would like to talk to him about, I make an appointment directly with his office, and although there might be a waiting list, I usually get to meet him within reasonable time. For more pressing concerns, like a sudden flu attack and need for sick leave, most Norwegians can consult either their firm’s doctor or the open doctor’s offices of which there are plenty. In these cases one must also expect to wait, sometimes for a couple of hours, before seeing the doctor, so take care to bring a book or be stuck with the flu AND crappy magazines. For those consultations there is a small fee, but if you spend 250 dollars one year on consultations, everything after that is free.

For emergencies there are ambulances just like everywhere else. When I was three I almost died from a serious astma condition. I was driven to the hospital in an ambulance and stayed there for five weeks, at no extra cost to my parents.

Of course this is not a perfect system. The queues for important surgery are often too long. There are complaints that new mothers do not get as much care as they used to. There is a lot of paperwork. The Conservative party is arguing that private initatives should be allowed to lift some of the burden off the heath care authorities’ shoulders, more than they do today. There is, however, little debate that in general, the vital decisions about your health should not be taken by someone under pressure to be profitable and keep his or her business competitive, but by a system which aims to be sustainable and provide efficient service on equal terms to all citizens.

We are, by the way, Michael Moore’s favourite country in the world, although I am sure you all can see that this reportage is all too glossy. The sun doesn’t shine all the time either: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4L6-0WRfSA.

Since this is my first substantial post, allow me also to be a suckup for just a few minutes and add that I’ve enjoyed your writing greatly over the years, and that I’ve now found another precise pen in Hilary Hilton. What a vivid description of sunscorched Texas.

I’m glad some of you have kept your sense of humor over this, as I’ve lost mine.

Some of these people have enraged me, not so much because of what they think or because of what they fear, but because some of them spent eight years disdaining my own anger and calling me unpatriotic because I civilly disagreed with their stupid president.

Welcome to the Swampland ingermerete. May you prosper here.

James, Los Angeles
August 8, 2009
at 11:01 pm

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Again with your high horse. You mistook Gladney, somebody who was assaulted, with a cop that arrested a P-D reporter after the assault took place. I could call you a liar for that, but you’re not. Just misinformed.
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SG, there is the possibility he has been severely injured. At this point, it does appear he has been gaming the system, but there are other explanations for this particular sequence of events. I will admit that my initial comment made it seem like the issue was set in stone. Sorry for that.
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I will not apologize, though, for pointing out that SEIU members were arrested for the beating – health care supporters.

It’s actually Mary Katherine Ham’s. Beyond that, if you can’t see the astroturfing accusation is dishonest, you need to look at the evidence a little more.

Well it’s official I woke up and found myself in an alternative universe. I went to bed last night shaking my head because the media was ignoring the real story. Now I’ve just been told by Peggy Noonan that its really just a celebration of the uniting of the formerly splintered Republican Party, Cokie Roberts just think its the result of too few nuns. But more importantly, we finally got someone in the mainstream press to admit that it might be the result of some organization, but Sam Donaldson it’s okay because organization is an American tradition.

So the way I see it pacific, we’re supposed to ignore the official report on unemployment figures, the increase in car sales, new home starts and all of that and believe you?

I’ll give you this:

It’s a great way to start a cult.

Oops, my bad, the current crop of Republicans are a cult, already. Funny I didn’t notice…

“Now I’ve just been told by Peggy Noonan that its really just a celebration of the uniting of the formerly splintered Republican Party, Cokie Roberts just think its the result of too few nuns.

Um, did she really say “uniting” or did you mishear her say “untying”?

And who’s their top dog now? I know it can’t be Steele.

I think that the lack of nuns is a very good explanation for the GOPers’ penchant for teabagging. Makes sense to me.

And what is going on witht the fonts and the other goofy formatting? They almost had it right, all they needed was paragraph breaks and we would have had a really nice setup, with review and all (which helped me greatly to avoid spelling Nazis!). Now it’s all gone!

Even after six cups of Joe, I’m still not in the right universe, either…

On the “death panels,” this is worth a read:

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_treatment/archive/2009/08/08/have-you-no-decency.aspx

Dee Cokie and Peggy together were too much for me to watch. I passed on that part.

I did enjoy Newt being called on for his misinformation by George and Howard Dean did a great job pushing back on him. I have not seen a host push back on Newt before.

Yes, welcome! Thoughtful commenters always appreciated.

KT: Aren’t you on vacation? Relax and have some fun. If you’re anywhere near one of those townhall healthcare protests, may I suggest that you fill some water balloons with ice cold water and try to nail a few protesters? Nothing says “behave yourselves” like a five pound water balloon to the back of the head going 60 mph.

I am looking at the evidence, yoshiattack.
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And weighing it judiciously.
~

Thanks, Sacred. Kids and I leave town tomorrow. We’ll spend our first week staying with friends in cool and lovely Vermont, our second in blisteringly hot South Texas. Mr. Swamp was supposed to come with us, but at the last minute had to cancel because he is going to … Afghanistan. He claims he has to do it for work, but I think it’s more evidence that he will do just about anything to get out of an extended visit with my relatives during the hottest month of the year.

Yes, it was wonderful to see Howard Dean push back on Newt, such an evil hob goblin. But I’m still wondering whether there has some sort of signed treaty against the use of the word lie, lied, liars, or lying? No one seems willing to use this most succinct and accurate description of Republican rhetoric, despite it not passing the six pack test as so aptly put by Ed Henry. They not only tell lies, they tell stupid ones on a regular basis. Surely, there must have been some sort of secret collective agreement. Perhaps it came up for a vote at the white house correspondent dinner?

A good friend of mine lives in San Antonio. He talked me into spending a week there in July once. I swear was melting. I go in January now. He visisted here last month and the temperature was an average of 25 degrees cooler than in Texas. We had one of coolest Julys on record. Have fun and be safe.

sgwhiteinfla –

Thank you for taking the time to reply. It does clear up some of my confusion as to what the blogger was attempting to say. There remains, however, the cause of the blogger’s concern.

No doubt it’s just me. The discussion of DNR, Living Wills, Healthcare Proxy and Power of Attorney is common place for healtcare professionals who routinely work with the elderly or Hospice. I guess I’m overlooking the fact that most people probably don’t even think of such things.

I should eat more brain food. That last post was pretty bad.

The Obama administration should completely revamp their communications shop. They are totally, irretrievably incompetent. They have completely lost control of the health care message. Everyone probably saw the Helen Thomas clip where she publicly noted as much to Gibbs. She is right.

But it isn’t just Gibbs, it’s the whole strategy that is small-time. Whatsername Ellen Moran is in completely over her head. What were they thinking? There is no excuse for the Republicans to be owning the narrative like this. Obama has the biggest bully pulpit in the world, and they are laid victim to Newt effin Gingrich and Sarah effin’ Palin talking about DEATH PANELS on the Sunday talk shows?

Today the whole administration should have been on the Sunday talk shows selling their product. Remember the bushies selling the Iraq War? Meet the Press their best venue? You can say what you want, but they had a communications shop that was extremely effective. they knew what they were doing. And they owned the narrative.

Heeeere’s Helen. Watch and Weep.

Thanks for the link KT, now if we could just get some insight as to where you think this debate is headed? For example, if someone really gets hurt, how will the media pursue the story? Will it feign surprise and make the lead “No one could have foreseen this development” or will the narrative more likely be “Today the partisan battle for health care has erupted into a physical violence?
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With everyone so eager to report this as a grass roots phenomenon and no one willing, with the exception of a very few like Joan Walsh and Pearlstein, that one side is so far beyond the pale that it deserves much more than the media’s typically lazy he said she said coverage. Do you think that history will show that this was the moment that media justified the public’s low expectations.

And look at how Politico wrote up Palin’s statement:

Palin calls Dems healthcare plan “evil,” cites threat to Trig

Describing Democratic healthcare plans as “evil,” Sarah Palin is warning that the proposals being debated in Washington could threaten the life of Trig, her Down Syndrome infant boy.

Palin, in her first policy statement since resigning as Alaska governor, wrote on her Facebook page Friday afternoon that the sick, elderly and disabled would suffer should healthcare be rationed, as conservatives claim it will with a public option. [...]

Source: Idiot Nation, Idiot Press

I mean, if you can’t beat back a looney buzz like DEATH PANELS then all hope is lost. It’s time to hold Obama responsible for allowing this failure.

We can bemoan the corrupt beltway media all we want, but dammit, the Obama Administration can do much, much better than this. WTF? It isn’t helping to tear our hair out on blogs and Twitter if Gibbs and his shop are so amateurish and small-time that they are flummoxed by lunatics spouting nonsense like DEATH PANELS and BIRTH CERTIFICATES. Obama needs to bring in some people who know WTF they are doing.

James I absolutely agree with your assessment that the administration needs to revamp its communication strategy. And I think it’s largely because of a decision they made during the transition to signal a shift from campaign mode to governance. Unfortunately, that meant that most of the campaign consultants responsible for designing message and communication strategy didn’t travel to the white house and their voices are missing from the larger debate. This is what happens when you stop dancing with the folks that brung ya.
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Having said that, this is also a result of the media using invitations to the Sunday talk shows to shape a specific narrative. It is no accident that Republican representatives and right leaning pundits outnumbered the left by a conservative 2 to 1 margin. The media doesn’t want to pursue the corporate angle, yet they couldn’t just ignore the story. So they didn’t bring on anyone who might have pushed that view and padded the seats with voices of the other side. Of the few that were in position to try, their responses were immediately cut off and the subject changed.

Something we can finally agree on…

Did someone actually try to use the Weekly Standard to “fact check” something? Seriously?

Was the National Enquirer not available?

I agree with you, Dee. But the Obamabites should be MUCH more aggressive about getting their people on. You don’t HAVE to have a 3:1 R to D ratio, and it is Obama’s responsibility, ultimately, to do a better job, a MUCH better job, of controlling the narrative. His shop just has been completely incompetent. I’ll bash the MSM as much as the next person, but you work with what you’ve got, and in the end it is up to them. They are failing badly so far. Blaming it all on the media gets old, it isn’t even helpful or constructive, if you have incompetents like Gibbs and his shop. And I think the WHPC gave Obama a big break initially, but they’ve gone back to their slovenly ways of reprinting and reciting whatever the Rs give them. There’s a vacuum there from the D side, and that’s inexcusable. We should OWN the message.

I’m not sure I agree about the campaign comm staff. I think they need slick insider pros to bring this around. You can’t get control of the media narrative as an outsider. But whatever works.

McConnell: Dem Reaction To Town Halls Shows We’re Winning

In an appearance on “Fox News Sunday,” the Kentucky Republican largely dismissed the bile seen this past week at the health care forums held by Democratic lawmakers. But when pressed to weigh in more fully on the matter, he deemed it evidence that his side was winning the debate.

“Look, I don’t think either side ought to be trying to engage in disrupting meetings, either the Democratic side or the Republican side,” McConnell said. “We ought to focus on the issue. And to demonize citizens who are energetic about this strikes me as demonstrating a kind of weakness in your position. In other words, you want to change the subject. Rather than talk about the half-a-trillion dollars in Medicare cuts, let’s talk about somebody, in some town meeting, who misbehaved. That strikes me as missing the point.”

McConnell is correct, to a certain extent. Democrats, including the DNC, have sought to put the spotlight on the tone and tenor of the town hall demonstrators. But it’s part of a broader effort to underscore that opposition to the president’s health care package has been driven by groups and individuals who, beyond anything else, want to be oppositional. The dialogue isn’t real or constructive.

From Sam Stein. I think McConnell is right, and Stein is right as well.

I am talking about the insider pros that were part of the campaign, but are not part of the administration. While clearly Axelrod And Plouffe led the campaign and Gibbs and Burton were the public face of the campaign, there was also a very sophisticated team of consultants that have since moved on to other campaigns and clients and are no longer part of the administration’s brain trust and it shows.
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I think the administration made a deliberate decision to divorce itself from a talented array of Democratic operatives from both the campaign and the DNC, which the also took over I might add, so none of these formidable voices are being heard in the larger debate. And yes for this, I very much blame the administration.
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After all the DNC was traveling on its own momentous journey before Obama decided to run. They’d expanded the electorate and took back the majority in 2006. And while I’m the first one to support the President, the DNC strategy, championed by Dean was opposed, denounced and ridiculed by Rahm Emanuel. I can only surmise from the unceremonious dumping of Dean by this administration, that rather than Emanuel admitting he was wrong and continuing to work with the people who fashioned and implemented this strategy, he’s decided to keep them at arms length.

Frankly, I think it all misses the point. This is really not about Republicans or Democrats. We like to simplify so that’s how the story is being portrayed, but what is happening here and is far more insidious and ultimately dangerous to the democratic process. This is about corporate factions hiding behind the instruments of democracy to thwart the democratic process, period!
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Yes, at the moment it is helping Limbaugh drive ratings, and its helping the GOP pick itself up off the floor, but the reason the current message is being pushed is to deflect responsibility for killing health care reform away from the corporate interests that financially benefit from the status quo.
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What you can count on, is that if this tactic is proven successful it will continue to be repeated. And while I can’t imagine what the issue will be, some day when the GOP finds itself on the opposing side of corporate interests they will find these same tactics used against them. You can already bet that climate change is next in their sights since these operatives have also been funded by elements of the coal and oil industries.

Yeah, I see what you mean. Well, I just meant they need some communications pros who have the inside track and know what they are doing. For example, the minute that “euthanasia” bit surfaced, they needed to send ten people out contacting every journo in the beltway to squash that baby like a bug with strongly worded and newsworthy statements. None of this milquetoast stuff. Gibbs just drives me crazy with his halting, circular manner.
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They need to understand the news cycle, and they need to understand the very real needs of the journos who follow them. It’s fine to rail about the MSM, but basically journos all need to do their job, which is to file a piece that is acceptable to their editor on deadline. That’s what pays the mortgage. The cable people, they are always looking for meat. So give them meat. They should have been ALL OVER the Sunday talk shows a la Rice-Cheney-Rumsfeld.
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And Rahm! What the hell is he doing? Screaming about liberals when the opposition is talking about DEATH PANELS and EUTHANASIA he’s frikkin worried about his Blue Dogs? Incompetent, I tell you.

BTW, Howard Dean did a great job on This Week today. Good on him.
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I don’t disagree on a meta level, but. There is a strong leadership missing here, a vacuum in leadership, on the Dem side as well as the Rs. We know Harry Reid is incompetent, and the Obamas surely know that too. Why aren’t they taking control of the message? They are letting Repubs, who are *representing the corporate interests* control the narrative. Enough of this consensus thing, it ain’t going to happen. Take control of the pulpit and DO something with it. Is all I’m saying.

The left presents two arguments:
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1: Corporate interests are funding paid operatives to disrupt Obamacare
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2: Uninformed, misbehaving rubes in society are disrupting Obamacare because they believe Palin’s “death panel” accusation, among other hysterical soundbites
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In reality, these aren’t the only two possibilities, so this isn’t an either or choice if I want to consider what is actually taking place. But these are the two primary narratives the Democrats have been presenting, to my knowledge. The question is…why do those on the left (i.e., Swamplanders) pursue contradictory arguments?
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Either the people are coming of their own volition, or they’re being paid to come. Either the anger is fake, or it’s real.
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Which is it?

I’m agreeing with you James, I’m just going one step further and explaining why we’re not hearing from those insider pros you speak of. There are only a few vehicles that provide a platform to get these voices heard and the president owns most of them.

Yoshi, despite your assertion, America’s political landscape is vast enough for both situations to be true. Perhaps you should focus more on the logic of your own arguments, rather then jumping to the completely erroneous conclusion that you are qualified to give advice on theirs.
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It is clear that there is a corporate component to the funding and organizing, regardless of their motives and it takes a pretty large stable of rubes to find enough people to organize around secret death panels, fema concentration camps and to oppose an impostor president whose really a secret Muslim plant from Kenya.
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As I’ve said before, I’ve often wished that stupid people would wear a sign, I just never expected them to create their own and gather at town halls to be identified.

It is clear that there is a corporate component to the funding and organizing, regardless of their motives and it takes a pretty large stable of rubes to find enough people to organize around secret death panels, fema concentration camps and to oppose an impostor president whose really a secret Muslim plant from Kenya.

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Ah. So, if I can distill your point, some puppeteers somewhere are pulling the strings behind birtherism, FEMA-ism, and health-care rabble.
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I don’t believe you. The simpler explanation is that attack lines like this flourish because they’re easier for people to believe in. Of course, that doesn’t neatly explain the protesters – as much as you would like all of them to be idiots.

Well, the Obamas don’t HAVE any insider pros that can do the job. If they did, they’d be out there. Case in point: Most journos have to file, i.e., submit something to be published, twice a day. Wire journos have anywehre from 5 – 10 deadlines *every day.* That’s a lot of output. They don’t file on time, they get fired. Right? Now, the bushies used to have a gaggle around 9-10 am and then a briefing in the early afternoon. Before the gaggle, they had a special deal for the TV people. That’s working WITH the MSM news cycle.
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In contrast, to my knowledge, Gibbs only has the briefing, early afternoon, and he is always late. Okay? Time is ticking away for these journo deadlines. Plus, they’ve been languishing around all morning with NOTHING to write about the administration. On the other hand, Republican leadership has been holding news conferences, their people have been out in the press gallery, they’ve been on the telephone, email, Twitter, pushing their line. And that’s what these journos have to go on. Plus, the Dems often don’t even bother to answer a journo’s call for response. That’s why you always get the rightwing slant.
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To not have something in the morning for journos to write about IS STUPID. To not have an early morning gaggle is INSANE. Insanely incompetent. Sure, go ahead and rant all you want about the philosophical moral failings of the MSM, but that isn’t helping the situation whatsoever. The Obamas need to work with what they have and forget about the moralizing philosophical crap. Get someone in there who knows how this thing works. And soon.
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IMHO.

You are saying it is easy for people to believe that the President of the United States of America is plotting to have Death Panels and euthanasia and FEMA camps, and then submit that they are not idiots?

You don’t know what the makeup of the protester population is. To throw out an accusation that birthers, campers, etc make up a substantial number of the people showing up to oppose Obamacare is baseless.

Well, yoshi, you said it yourself, and it’s true.
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Or have you been avoiding mentioning the GOP sites encouraging this.
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One thing you are right on is that they are puppepteers, and I think that you, along with them, happen to lie on the left hand end of the IQ spectrum for even venturing to fly this one!
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BTW, yoshi, which will you take more offense at:
Being placed on the left hand end of a spectrum, or being placed close to the zero mark?
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Chooze yer outrage…

yoshi, forever obfuscating and obscuring.
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Ahyuh, ahyuh, that’s how it’s done!

By the way, Rush Limbaugh compared Obama to Hitler, again, again.
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With peers like these, yoshi, you can forgive me for venturing that you are dumber than a warm rock on a windowsill.
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Oops. Forgive me! I’m supposed to be civil!
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Just like Rush…

“Either the people are coming of their own volition, or they’re being paid to come. Either the anger is fake, or it’s real.”
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Of course, yoshi, as usual, you are trying to frame out the most likely explanation:
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The anger is real, but misguided and disinformed. It is perpetrated by GOPers who have publicly condoned it.
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Try to frame ALL the possiblities, next time, why don’t you?

I think playing the “civility” card is long past its expiration date, Fifty-Three. When they are sending out the Neo-Nazis with advice to carry? F*ck “civility.”

You don’t know what the makeup of the protester population is.
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You can see for yourself what the makeup of the protester population is on every YouTube video. They are a bunch of white, extremely angry, stupid f*cks who get MediCare, free VA benefits, and all the while screaming murderously about “NO government healthcare.” They are the Palinites of last year, and are even more pig ignorant than Sarah Palin, and angrier and more violent. They are NeoNazis, dittoheads, stupid evangelicals whipped up into a frenzy through propaganda by the extreme right.
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It’s ON TAPE, brother. And photographic evidence. And eyewitness testimony. Show me where this isn’t true.

[...] “achievement” to “holistic.”  Following what I guess will have to pass for “public debate” of healthcare reform, I have been struck by the extent to which the debate has laid bare the [...]

“I don’t believe you. The simpler explanation is that attack lines like this flourish because they’re easier for people to believe in.”

Top ten reasons to think Yoshi’s response is credible:
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10) It is indeed easier for STUPID people to believe.
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9) He and his explanation is indeed simple.
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8) If the immaculate conception can explain Christianity, it can certainly explain rumors and lies spreading around the world.
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7) Or these attack lines do flourish because the GOP spread lies faster than a ten dollar hooker can spread her legs.
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6) Because ‘I don’t believe you,” is so much more effective when said with emotion, folded arms and a petulant pouty lip.
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5) Because it takes one to know one.
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4) Because it takes way too much brain activity to follow birthers, believe in fema camps and a national euthanasia strategy.
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3) Because Yoshi can cut and paste well.
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2) Yoshi has taken the pulse of conservatives and found them all racing (towards the edge of a cliff).
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commence drum roll…The number one reason to think that yoshi’s response is credible is…
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1) Not once did he defend against GOP Nazi name calling by denying the holocaust.

iIf it repels those really big monsters then it’s worth every yen IMHO. Here’s also hoping that earthquake didn’t shake up you and yours too badly.
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Wyoming got shot to all kinds of Hades. The good news is I have a flight credit on Delta that I’ll be able to use in just enough time to go to a wedding in Arizona in April. This of course leads into the horrors of flying into Sky Harbor, which is a whole other level of Hades. The good part is I’ll have more than enough leave to go. What might be the coolest part is I might still be able to squeeze in a flight to Nihon as well, but one step at a time.
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Oh and now you’re not the only one slanting right. Something we need to discuss with the High Sherriffs?

Heh.
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It is indeed easier for STUPID people to believe [in].

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That’s what I mean. It’s easy for the dumb fringe to take up conspiracy theories. Exactly what is wrong with pointing that out?
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Of course, yoshi, as usual, you are trying to frame out the most likely explanation:
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The anger is real, but misguided and disinformed. It is perpetrated by GOPers who have publicly condoned it.

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53, look at this in the context of an accusation of astroturfing.
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What is astroturfing? The use of paid operatives to either directly create the appearance of genuine protest (the Brooks Brothers mob) or to facilitate protest by inducing people to come and express their fake anger…e.g., busing people in, giving bystanders signs to hold for money. I’m sure you already know this, but it’s important to frame my response.
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If you say that the anger is real, then you’ve ruled out astroturfing. The GOP’s political machine may have fed the rage, but the protests are genuine. This is not astroturfing.
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You can see for yourself what the makeup of the protester population is on every YouTube video. They are a bunch of white, extremely angry, stupid f*cks who get MediCare, free VA benefits, and all the while screaming murderously about “NO government healthcare.”

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Leaving aside that you can’t offer an ounce of proof that virtually all the protesters get Medicare and free VA benefits, nothing you said is any evidence that most of them are birthers or any other sort of conspiracy theorists.

Let me make it clearer – there are some people whose hatred for Obama is so intense that they’ll invent any pretense to bring him down. For birthers, it is easier to believe all the conspiracy theories about Obama.
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Sorry, I shouldn’t have used a general term like “people”…for the more stable, which thankfully constitutes a majority of America, conspiracies are on the far edge. We were talking about the birthers, and I slipped.

” .. Thoughtful commenters always appreciated. ..”
Mhh.

I quickly dismiss as thoughtless those whose views I don’t agree with. I would propose that my attitude is neither subjective nor flip nor gratuitous nor anti-social.

Take for example that Rush Limbaugh thing whose rantings are worshiped by hundreds, if not millions, as the epitome of thoughtful commentary – even when he equates Pres Obama to the monster Hitler.

Don’t put words in my mouth you dishonest hack. No one said anything about “virtually all the protesters get Medicare and free VA benefits.” I said that
“They are a bunch of white, extremely angry, stupid f*cks who get MediCare, free VA benefits, and all the while screaming murderously about “NO government healthcare.” They are the Palinites of last year, and are even more pig ignorant than Sarah Palin, and angrier and more violent. They are NeoNazis, dittoheads, stupid evangelicals whipped up into a frenzy through propaganda by the extreme right.”
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You can’t deny it, it’s on video. That’s the idiots who are attending the town halls from the right.
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And stop parsing definitions. It may be that these people are seething with anger, bigotry and racism, but their anger is being organized and whipped up by professional Republican organizations: Freedom Works, Fox News. That is astroturfing whether you want to admit it or not. You don’t get to redefine a word for your own benefit.

“They have completely lost control of the health care message.”
That is how I feel with all the misinformation out there not quickly debunked in sound bytes that the hillbilly understands.

Consider their most shrill talking points:
1)
No to the “government option” – even as many in the mobs would quickly perish save for the government’s MEDICARE or VA health care/insurance.
Why aren’t the mobs and the GOP specifically challenged to denounce, and seek to do away with, the government options named MEDICARE and VA? Or do they think now that government options can be OK?
2)
“death panels” – nothing of the sort in the plan.
Would Palin’s mobs rather have the status quo? Don’t we have “death panels” now – with insurance companies determining who gets health care and who is left to die when the companies invoke “pre-existing condition” clauses as a reason to deny health care coverage to some who they deem essentially not worthy?
Why aren’t Palin’s mobs challenged to rail against the “death panels” of the insurance companies?
You would think that such mobs would therefore embrace universal coverage …
NO.
Reasonableness or consistency don’t seem to be their trait.. ..

Do the loud mobs remember what Pres Obama’s narration of the indignity suffered by his dying mother at the hands of the insurance companies? Now the Palin mobs would call him a Hitler for seeking coverage for all.
{It is said that you may take a cow to the river but can not force it to drink the water …}

Friendships aside, perhaps Gibbs and the DNC communication machine are due for a critical performance evaluation ..

Yoshi–
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First, I can’t believe you actually tried to give a serious response to a top ten list and second, the point is not about the idiots too stupid to know they are being misled. It’s about the conscience-free political operatives that exploit their mental inadequacies for personal gain.

Yes, James, you didn’t say all the protesters got Medicare and VA benefits…you said “they are a [bunch of people] who get Medicare, free VA benefits”…such a huge difference, I know. And you called me a dishonest hack for that?
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And by the way, that is not astroturfing. People are coming to these town halls of their own accord – they are not being bused in by corporate interests. If you call publicly attacking the opposition (what you mean by whipping up anger) astroturfing, then you’ve basically accused every member of Congress, every pundit, and every radio show host of astroturfing on BOTH sides.
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http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/08/painting-protestors-as-partisan-mobs-with-lies-about-health-reform-democrats-rally-their-own-town-hall-activists.html
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Astroturfing? If that means directing people to town halls and congressional offices, yes.
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It’s about the conscience-free political operatives that exploit their mental inadequacies for personal gain.

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Are you now using the term “astroturfing” to cover whipping up anger, as well?

I don’t know why you are so adamant about the astroturfing issue. Liberals in the blogosphere started using that word in 2003-2004 when the bushies were planting letters to the editor, people-on-the-street responses to reporters questions, party operatives in his audiences to cheer, fake soldiers, all to make it appear that Bush had support. claiming it was “grassroots” support, when he didn’t have any real support. Astroturf takes a lot of different forms and the Repubs have been using these techniques for years. You don’t get to narrowly define the word to win a point. BZZZT. Sorry. Lose.
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You’d prefer we said they are whipping up rightwing extremist anger in a public propaganda campaign? Well, that’s true as well.
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No, I said “They are the Palinites of last year, and are even more pig ignorant than Sarah Palin, and angrier and more violent. They are NeoNazis, dittoheads, stupid evangelicals whipped up into a frenzy through propaganda by the extreme right.”
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As I said, quit cherrypicking and putting words in my mouth. It’s dishonest.

I don’t know why you are so adamant about the astroturfing issue. Liberals in the blogosphere started using that word in 2003-2004 when the bushies were planting letters to the editor, people-on-the-street responses to reporters questions, party operatives in his audiences to cheer, fake soldiers, all to make it appear that Bush had support. claiming it was “grassroots” support, when he didn’t have any real support. Astroturf takes a lot of different forms and the Repubs have been using these techniques for years. You don’t get to narrowly define the word to win a point. BZZZT. Sorry. Lose.

Let’s look at my paraphrased definition:

What is astroturfing? The use of paid operatives to either directly create the appearance of genuine protest (the Brooks Brothers mob) or to facilitate protest by inducing people to come and express their fake anger…e.g., busing people in, giving bystanders signs to hold for money.

Replace “protest” with “grassroots sentiment” and I believe my definition fits ALL of your examples. Moreover, what you have described as “astroturfing” is comparable to NONE of those examples. I am not “narrowly defining” the term – you are being rather disingenuous and hostile.
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Say what you want about the protesters, but they are genuine, not planted.
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No, I said “They are the Palinites of last year, and are even more pig ignorant than Sarah Palin, and angrier and more violent. They are NeoNazis, dittoheads, stupid evangelicals whipped up into a frenzy through propaganda by the extreme right.”
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As I said, quit cherrypicking and putting words in my mouth. It’s dishonest.

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One can be a Neo-Nazi dittohead Palinite evangelical with MediCare and VA benefits. In fact, Palinite (and occasionally evangelical) is pretty much shorthand to describe the entire “stupid” section of the right. Moreover, a popular line of attack has always been to classify the entire right as a collection of white boomers and crotchety geriatrics, both of which are assumed to be receiving MediCare and VA. Do you see how I thought you were lumping most of those caricatures into one prototypical wingnut?
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Should I have looked deeper into your flurry of slurs? Yes. But know that your language was somewhat unclear.

I’m trying to figure out what you stand to gain by winning a point about astroturfing. You said “And by the way, that is not astroturfing. People are coming to these town halls of their own accord – they are not being bused in by corporate interests.” My point is that there are other forms of astroturfing besides busing people in. These morons are being urged and encouraged to disrupt these town hall meetings and they are furnished with talking points and instructions on how to shut down the meetings. That’s also astroturfing.
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I don’t deny their seething anger and bigotry exists — only that it is exploited and fed by corporate interests including Fox News, the big-money evangelical organizations, corporations like FreedomWorks, and right now the health insurance industry. Your parsing of those factors is simplistic and not a representation of reality.
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Well, I didn’t think my language was unclear, but that’s a subjective take. Perhaps I should have numbered the not-all-inclusive list.
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You think *I’m* hostile? How about tut-tutting these armed NeoNazi thugs that FreedomWorks is sending out. I have to remain “civil” while your side is calling us all kinds of Nazis and fascists and socialists who want to euthanize old people and babies and the developmentally disable in some kind of non-existent Death Panels? Your side is telling crazy lunatic extremists to *arm themselves* before they go out to shut down town hall meetings. There comes a time when the pearl-clutching “civility” card doesn’t fly any more.

I’m trying to figure out what you stand to gain by winning a point about astroturfing.

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Nothing else than establishing that the left can’t have it both ways.
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In regards to your first point, I refer you to this blog entry: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/08/painting-protestors-as-partisan-mobs-with-lies-about-health-reform-democrats-rally-their-own-town-hall-activists.html
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The left is ordering their own troops into the fray. Just the SEIU presence is evidence of that.
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If we’re astroturfing, which is an interesting allegation given that the specifics upon which your argument hinges are grounded upon a tiny group discussed earlier in this thread, then you definitely are doing the same.
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And by the way, try to tell the difference between the NeoNazis and the mainstream. Please. The right is not monolithic.

Is it good or bad for the pro-America community that a pea-brained, America hating fool like Helen Thomas is upset because she thinks that the clueless, thoroughly unqualified, terrorist fraternizing “Dr. Obama” (Time magazine’s title for its adored community organizer) and his flacks have not sufficiently promoted (i.e., lied about) Obama’s socialized medicine scheme?

Dee..:
” 7) Or these attack lines do flourish because the GOP spread lies faster than a ten dollar hooker can spread her legs. ..”
{blush} {blush}
Isn’t this supposed to be a family blog?

” Why aren’t the mobs and the GOP specifically challenged to denounce, and seek to do away with, the government options named MEDICARE and VA?”
Gingrich admits that the government option named the VA runs well and he says that the MEDICARE is extremely corrupt.

1) So does he want to scrape the MEDICARE? If not, should he be pushing for a realization of the standard of efficienct and effectiveness in health care delivery that we know the government is capable of in the VA system?
{Or would he rather throw the child out with the bath water?}

2) If he would rather not have any government option because of corruption, then he probably would stand against government procurement in the defense industry because of the monumental corruption known to thrive there.

3) If corruption is his main concern, then he must be raving mad about the corruption in the financial sector that brought USA to its recession-wracked knees. Does he wish to do away with the corrupt players in USA’s financial sector and the government’s ‘meddling’ in it?
What is he going to do about the pharmaceutical industry which is well-known for the ills of overpricing and corruption?

When is it good enough for Gingrich. There is a measure of ineffectiveness and inefficiency in the delivery of publicly-run AND privately-run health care and other services. When is it good enough for Gingrich? Are Repugs only sensitive to less-than-stellar undertakings of a government run by democrats?

Aren’t there, or shouldn’t there be, areas – such as health care delivery and the wellness of the nation – that are above petty, indeed uncivilized, undemocratic politics that instigate violently thuggish mayhem of the kind we malign the Third World barbarians for?

The level of stupidity exhibited by the media, combined with the clueless of wingnuts and the depravity of their handlers leaves us with an America that is unable to solve a single problem.

We are basically too stupid and undisciplined to live. The best we can hope for, at this point, is a more or less benign military coup.

Son of a beach must pay.

Sure it is. It’s just that the Swampland family is every bit as dysfunctional as everybody’s real family.

Ten dollar hookers? And I thought the Cash for Clunkers was a great bargain.

@ 3.1 Actually exiled_at_home if you check the record you will find that Kerry voted against one appropriation bill, and for a different bill covering the same appropriation. They were two different bills.If you were paying attention, you would be aware that this happens almost every day congress is in session, and of course no one mentions it because there is no republican propaganda value in it.

completely incoherent.

I’m not interested in being civil, either.
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Yoshi tries to hide behind obfuscations and confustion to cast outrage at being called on for what is really taking place.
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I do not give two dams and a fock whether it’s “astroturfing” or not. This is a stupid semantics game that Yoshi is trying to play and basically, it’s like this with these GOP nutballs.
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We lost the election, therefore we can be violent if we want, because there is no other way for us to be heard.
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I wonder what our country would have been like had the Dems adapted this position during the Dark Ages?
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Yoshi is a fockup. He’s only for democracy when the people agree with him!

I hope trifecta55 is not suggesting we watch a rerun of “Soylent Green” — that will really give these anal orifices something to ponder. If this is too deep (or too far back in the past for you)–it’s the Charleton Heston/Edward G. Robinson thriller that portrays an innovative method of dealing with the senior population while at the same time feeding a nation of dependents a daily ration of cookies. So everybody’s happy and business goes on as usual!

And the trolls come out from under their bridges. They must be feeling threatened. Where’s spob, anyway?

And if you were paying attention you would have noticed that I was not criticizing Kerry for changing his stance. I was pointing out that it is undoubtedly natural to have evolutionary perspectives that fluctuate over time. It’s neither hypocritical nor uncommon.

Did Yoshi send out neo-nazis? No. So why does the one have anything to do with extending civility to a fellow Swamper?