Health Reform: Euthanasia and Other Rumors

I’m trying to reconcile something.

We’ve been told, repeatedly, that people are “satisfied” with what they have now yet if that were the case the defenders of the status quo wouldn’t have to deceive to make their case.

My sense, which is born out in the polling that KT cited last week, is that there is a strong almost universal understanding that the system doesn’t work and that the population is again ahead of Washington.

Both of those things are true, which is why this is so complicated politically.

Any Swampland comment on what going on at the various congressional town halls on health care? Or should we wait for a physical confrontation?

“High on the list has to be the group of Tea Baggers who hanged an effigy of Rep. Frank Kratovil (D-MD) from a noose in front of his district office a few weeks ago. Then there was the case yesterday where a few folks at a tea bag protest outside a townhall meeting in Hartford called on Sen. Chris Dodd (D-CT) to commit suicide as a way to cure his recently diagnosed prostate cancer. And even though it lacked any clear appeal to the murder of public officials or even a good suicide joke, I’m still pretty fond of this case on Tuesday where the head of the local Tea Party group up in Rome, New York just started yelling ‘liar’ over and over at a clearly befuddled and caught off guard Steny Hoyer.”

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/08/best_moment_so_far_1.php#more?ref=fpblg

I’m in the process of reporting a story on this for TIME.com.

Not to be argumentative, which clearly isn’t my way, but either there is a desire for reform or there isn’t.

It’s becoming clearer that this is shaping up to be another case of disconnect between the cliched Beltway and the rest of the country.

Good to hear/read KT. You’re aces.

The polling (which goes outside the Beltway) is pretty consistent on the inconsistency in people’s views on this issue, and that’s certainly what I’m picking up in my own discussions with people outside the Beltway. In my reporting of this other story, I’m discovering that congressmen home in their districts are finding the same thing. And Obama acknowledges it. It is possible for people to hold contradictions in their brains, which is one of the reasons that this issue has defeated just about everyone who has tried to deal with it.

Republicans who peddle these outrageous lies about health care (like euthanasia) are only cowards who don;t have the political guts to stand with their birther friends.

http://www.political-buzz.com/

And here’s another issue: People want reform, but they are not convinced they want THIS reform. They are confused about what, precisely, this bill would mean to them. One of the reasons–which I have dealt with in a number of stories–is that there isn’t a bill. That means lawmakers have to go home without answers to such basic questions as, will this mean my taxes will go up? Will I be required to buy insurance? What if I can’t afford it? What will be covered? How can I be sure this won’t make health care costs rise even faster? So they are increasingly confused.

I used to wonder why some conservatives are so shameless about lying. In trying to learn more about the conservative movement I discovered that the movement’s founders have long advocated the use of the ‘noble lie’ (link) to achieve their goals.

Quoting Irving Kristol:
‘There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.’

Of course, while conservative elites call their tactic the ‘noble lie’ the rest of us simply call it lying. The ‘noble lie’ is their rationalization for the use of dishonesty to manipulate the rest of us. As practiced by these conservatives there’s nothing ‘noble’ about it — but it’s frequently effective.

I understand the problem of congress people not having a specific bill to explain/defend but to my point about whether there is a desire for reform the poll you linked to last week, the 80% are satisfied one, had support for almost every type of change.
Even single payer, while under 50% 48-46 I think it was, more approve than disapprove.

The confusion or ambivalence you refer to reminds me of the congressional approval numbers which are always low generally but not for the individual congress person.
“Throw the bums out! Just not my guy”

Granted there might be confusion because there is not a bill but there IS a bill; both house and senate versions which teh anti-reformers are using for their attacks. Can’t we all agree that false readings of the bill should be highlighted and not accepted as “just another view point” in the debate? I found Harold Pollack’s take down to be a little thin since he didn’t refer specifically to the wording of the bill to refute the stupid attacks. Fortunately, I have some time on my hands so am going through the awful article by Betsy whatsername in the Post (the one that Pollack links to) and trying to make sense of her points since she refers to specific page numbers of both the House and Senate version. Not surprisingly my preliminary review shows that she is full of complete nonsense. Once it is done properly, I’ll post a proper commentary on the various points made.

Looking forward to it.

Do you have any early insights into how the pols are holding up under the assault of these rent-a-mobs? Also, have you seen any of the reasonable anti-reform people become alienated by the thuggish tactics?

Thank you so much; I look forward to the result of your efforts.

Good to see a debunking of the mis- and dis-information campaign against health care reform make it out of the blogosphere.

Thanks, Karen.

RE:

People want reform, but they are not convinced they want THIS reform. They are confused about what, precisely, this bill would mean to them. One of the reasons–which I have dealt with in a number of stories–is that there isn’t a bill.

It’s actually a lot simpler than that.

It would be magnitudes easier to sell reform if its proponents could say

“Under this plan, all people will be able to buy affordable comprehensive insurance that guarantees them their trusted doctor, and which cannot be taken away.”

, but they can’t –not because there isn’t a bill, but because none of what’s in anything currently being negotiated does all of that.

It isn’t that there’s nothing for people to get behind, it’s that they’re being asked to get behind something that may or may not allow all people to be able to buy affordable comprehensive insurance that guarantees them their trusted doctor, and which cannot be taken away.

So, here we go: Points made by Betsy in the Post article vs. what the bills actually say.

First, preliminary comment: I am a lawyer and in the past 12 years have read more legislation that I can care to remember, including English, European and US legislation. In order of “readability” I’d put English first, European second and US a distant third. How you guys manage to have legislation that is so difficult to read (more difficult, I’d add, than European legislation that suffers inherently from having to mean the same thing in a number of different languages) I just don’t know. Needless to say, both the House and Senate health bills suffer from the same problem. No matter, I proceed as a daring lawyer must, to decipher what is being said in the bill vs. Ms McHaughty’s article. Bits in quotes are from her article.

“a new government bureaucracy will select health plans that it considers are in your best interest, and you will have to enroll in one of these ‘qualified’ plans. If you now get your plan through work, your employer has a five year grace period to switch you into a qualified plan. If you buy your own insurance, you’ll have less time. As soon as anything changes in your contract…you’ll have to move to a qualified plan instead (House bill, p. 16-17)”

I read those pages and can only assume the government bureaucracy that she is referring to is the health care exchange. The only changes to the substance of existing health care plans are to make them compliant with the new regulations (i.e. no discrimination for pre-existing conditions, and all the other things that improve the delivery of health insurance). The reference to a “qualified plan” appears to be simply a reference to a plan that meets the new regulatory requirements (unless it is grandfathered in).

“When you file your taxes, if you can’t prove you are in a qualified plan, you’ll be fined thousands of dollars – and then automatically enrolled in a randomly selected plan (House Plan p 167-168)”. The fine is true, although I don’t know that it will be thousands of dollars (it says 2.5%). I couldn’t see where it says that you’ll be enrolled in a randomly selected plan – that may just be made up or a confusion about the words “Acceptable Coverage”. again, this only applies to qualified plans and I assume that this is the enforcement of the “mandate”.

“the legislation limits you to a managed-care plan even if you and your employer are footing the bill (Senate Plan, p 57-58).” I must say, I just didn’t understand this attack. The relevant sections do talk about providing incentives for reducing re-admissions etc, but isn’t all care in the US under private insurance “managed-care”?

“One troubling provision of the House bill compels seniors…blah blah (House Bill, p 425-426).” This section of the bill is simply an amendment to the Social Security Act (section 1861) and doesn’t say anything about whether it is a mandate or an option so I went to look at the SSA and this is where I lost the will to live. Can someone please explain this point to me using the wording of the bills themselves rather than simply asserting that Bitsy’s points are untrue?

‘…so I went to look at the SSA and this is where I lost the will to live.’
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Could it be that you’ve found the euthanasia legislation we’ve heard so much about? Just reading it will kill off granny.
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Sorry. I couldn’t resist.
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Nice work. Thanks.

That made me smile…

A personal anecdote on end of life care; my father had two years with cancer, treatments etc, the whole thing. He was 65 when he died. In the last month when he was in a coma hooked up to all different sorts of machines I thought a lot of what he used to tell me when I was a young’un. He used to say “Son, I think that 65 years is a good long life. I don’t want to live more than that, getting old and missing my youth. I definitely don’t want to be one of those people that end their lives in Hospital hooked up to machines”.

Of course, when he was given the opportunity at 65 to have some very risky treatment that would probably put him in a coma and kill him, versus just having palliative care and dying at home with his family, he took the risky treatment. Didn’t even think about not having it. Personally, I think he was right when he was younger but his will to do anything to live was absolutely his first and, indeed, only instinct when it came to the crunch.

The end result was that his last month was unbearably painful for my family and made us approx. $1million poorer. It meant that instead of the glorious retirement my mum had planned, she had to continue to work to pay the bills but I don’t think she would have had it any other way. The point? People’s attitude to healthcare is not rational and that leans me to be convinced that it can’t simply be treated as a commodity. It’s not like car insurance where you can choose, for example, do I get a replacement car or not on a rational basis – do I need it, can I live without it? Those rational choices can’t be made in the healthcare field and anytime anyone is footing the bill (whether the insurance companies or the government) will ultimately have to make those choices for you. I’d much rather it was the government than the private insurance companies, who are committed to making profits.

Homer: I’m so sorry about your dad. Sadly, 65 is not nearly a long enough life.

Sadly, there’s no “dispensing with” these exaggerations and lies–precisely because they work. Far too many of us are far too easily persuaded: utter the phrase “socialized medicine” and you’re sure to earn a bandwagon of follower nay-sayers. I doubt that very many members of the “socialized medicine” clique even understand what socialism is, but that doesn’t matter. American political and social discourse has sadly sunk to such depth, in many instances, that no one stops to wonder. Long ago, E. M. Forster wrote a wonderful essay, “Our Graves at Gallipoli,” which described how politicians turned heart-felt patriotism into a buzzword, a quick and easy way to stir the pot; eventually “Gallipoli” became the meaningless “Gally Polly,” but it still worked wondrously well.

Yes, KT–
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Americans are quite capable of holding two contradictory opinions in their heads. However, the problems Democrats face is that Americans cannot hold on to two contradictory facts simultaneously and the media fails to tell them which one is the lie.

Thanks KT. 65 is way too short, I agree. Thankfully my dad managed to pack in about 90 years worth of living into it!

The last month and a half was at a hospital in NY (after the NHS in UK told us there was nothing more to be done…they were right in the end) and ate up $1 million. We were lucky that we could pay for it, but it made it even more clear to me that something needed to be done about the US health system if that was how much people had to pay. The bills themselves were unbelievable; it would be like if all the lawyers from my firm each put in separate bills for the work they did, separate bills for each piece of paper printed, each pen used and each library book considered.

Could it be that we, as a culture (and all present company excepted), have lost our will and/or ability to deal with complex issues — and are (post ____gate) unwilling to trust anyone who can? The debate is not here. For every blogonaut, there are many, many more living in the MSMsphere and looking for no more than a soundbite solution. Maybe the real problem is defining and communicating the problem, always the First Step, in really personal terms.

Moreover, you are being disingenuous by simply pointing to the polling as proof of the contradiction, without failing to also include that polling is merely a snapshot in time and this sudden dip in support is solely related to the recent events of Gates and GOP rumor mongering and not some revelation of being satisfied with the status quo.
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Even here where the goal is to debunk, I failed to see even one simple declarative statement: Republicans have lied to you. As long as the press and academic pundits continue to frame the problem with clever little euphemisms “like perhaps they lack googling skills,” the public says to themselves, “oh well perhaps they have but what does that have to do with the price of tomatoes?”
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The public is much more straight forward and they assume the rest of the world is likewise or at least should be. They expect that if something is a lie, it will be reveasled as such and until you and your brethren can used the word lie, this problem will continue. Oh and btw, the Republicans understand the media’s reluctance to call a lie a lie and they count on it. and in this case a lie by any other name does not smell as stink..

Another factor here–which Obama also addressed (see extensive quotes I posted in the comments section yesterday)–is the difficulty of doing this after so much else that they have done. People are scared, and not irrationally so, to see one big spending program after another coming out of Washington. It overwhelms them, and seems like too much. Obama’s words: “The American people’s feeling for six months was, gosh, that’s just a lot of stuff; that’s a big load to take on — which then gives traction to this notion that we are interested in expanding government; which then feeds into suspicions that somehow health care is another big government project that we can’t afford.”

If going off on a cop in your own home can be “disorderly conduct,” why can’t this disruption of a public forum qualify?

Tase ‘em, bro.

“…feeds into suspicions that somehow health care is another big government project that we can’t afford.”

Then, somehow, the idea that we cannot afford the current state of health care in this country – monetarily, morally – needs better exposure.

The vast majority of the American people haven’t been following healthcare reform the way Swamplanders have been able to by reading the facts instead of listening to talking points spin.

Like it or not, a significant potion of the population goes by Fox News’s and conservative radio/teevee spin and distortions about reform would mean to them. It’s difficult enough to explain the truth. Debunking the lies is even harder.

This is like Cold war disinformation campaigns. Spread enough distortions and outright lies, combine them with a kernel of truth and you’ve made it almost impossible for the average person to make an informed decision.

It’s not enough to say that the republicans are distorting the truth. They have to be called liars and discredited.

On a recent spell in Europe I could not explain the current cross currents in our HC debate. My friends have govt supplied medical care, see their own doctors and get hospital care without any fear of financial embarrassment. My brother-in-law is a trauma surgeon in Lyon, has a solid practice, lives well but first and foremost is committed to his profession and his patients. They simply cannot understand why a country that occupies a leadership role in so many issues vis-a-vis the rest of the world is so torn up in the Health Care debate.

Above all they are struck by the level of disinformation and outright dishonesty that pervades our discourse on this subject.

I told them that it was impossible to explain our pernicious system of financing politics. If they saw that sausage manufacturing process at work they will understand why little gets done on our Congress. But when it comes to naming an airport or a bridge or passing a resolution supporting Israel we can do that in 24 hours flat.

Karen thank you for a discussion on the Euthanasia rumor. I have been very disappointed in press for not disputing this immediately. Scaring senior citizens is something I think the press would think should not be allowed.

This rumor was timed perfectly, I received my email two days before the Presidents Town Hall with ARRP. I watched to see if it would be asked and it was. The president was surprised. He did not realise until the next day when asked again. how much traction the rumor had already.

I think that the Gates episode was more important than trying to ease the fears of senior citizens.

People’s attitude to healthcare is not rational and that leans me to be convinced that it can’t simply be treated as a commodity.

That can’t be said often enough. Another way to shed light on it is to look at how much people are willing to spend on ‘herbal’ and ‘natural’ remedies, much to the chagrin of their physicians. Between the mountains of denial before your sick and the mounds of wishful thinking after, our lower natures are absolutely in charge when we think about our health.

That’s why lies resonate so easily. They speak to our lower brains……

Months ago I got fed up with constantly trying to explain to my MIL that what she was hearing on Fox was just bullsh!t. I locked out Fox and similar stations on the satellite system.

I’ve done my part. Now if CNN would just fire that assh0le lou Dobbs.

I think the main difference is the obvious and very profound mistrust of the government that exists in the US vs the general feeling of mistrust of politicians in Europe which is generally combined with a respect of governmental institutions.

A potentially better comparison would be between European’s feelings towards to the European parliament and Commission (which is responsible for harmonizing laws and enforcement of those laws across Europe) which are vastly more negative than their feelings towards their own government, English, French, Spanish or German. This mirrors, I guess, the distrust of federal government vs. the relatively more comfortable attitude towards state government. The difference, of course, is that hardly anyone votes in the European parliamentary elections compared to national elections, in the US I understand that more people vote for President than vote for Governor/State legislative bodies?

And it’s not all golden here; we have our fair share of cronies (the conservatives/tories being prime examples of this back in the days of Thatcher etc) and businesses peddling influence.

I don’t understand where there polling is comming from for I don’t know one single person that is OK with there health plan. Why? It cost too much and then to top it all off with you have copays for each Doctor and copays for medication so you tell me what kind of health care is so good. Then to top that off with you have to pay deductibles when you go to the hosiptal not to say what you have to pay when you get out for the insurance companys don’t cover the whole bill. I hope President Obama gets his way for it’s about time these Insurance Companys get what is comming to them. As a matter of fact I’m tired of people getting rich off the sick and that goes for these senators as well!

I be postin’ li’ a gale force on me local newspaper website in advance o’ me Rep’s “health care forum” – postin’ th’ disruption script, encouragin’ folks not t’ allow themselves t’ be shut down by a bunch o’ thugs, lettin’ ‘em know who be behind th’ “protests”…an’ I be gettin’ blowback fr’m me local teabaggers on it, too!

Some o’ ‘em already be postin’ th’ “illegal aliens” line o’ p**p! I were headin’ ‘em off on th’ “euthanasia” tack, tho’!

Thar be no way a bunch o’ ignorant astropirates be goin’ t’ best th’ real thing!

ARRGH!

Wha’ th’ *#@! do a pirate be havin’ t’ be doin’ t’ be gettin’ th’ paragraph breaks back?!
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YARR!

KT:

My concern is that a simple factual refutation of bull$#!t is ineffective. Lord knows the Birthers’ crap has been refuted more than “Paul is dead,” yet millions still buy into it (the former, that is – see <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsgsOwQ-q_8this highly effective refutation of the latter.)

The story here is the purportedly responsible elected officials who commit repeated knowing falsehood. Instead of giving us dry recitations of fact, reporters need to confront the liars with the same facts and make them explain their mendacity. Why is it a major weeks-long story when a pol cheats on a spouse, but lying to the electorate is just business as usual?

Sorry about the sloppy linking. It worked fine in Preview.

My impression is that conservatives believe being a patriotic Christian American automatically justifies anything and everything they do. It’s not a lie when they tell it, it’s an attempt to rescue America from the evil communist feminists. Sort of an the-ends-justifies-the-means thing. And since they’re all patriotic and all, it’s ok.

sacredh I enjoy your MIL stories. Glad you care enought to block Fox.

I think in many of these polls, respondents confuse or combine “health insurance” with “healthcare”. Most people like their doctors….many view themselves and their doctors both as victims of the insurance industry. But I think that when asked “are you satisfied with your healthcare today?”, many folks are saying, “yes”, because they are thinking of their physician, not their insurance company. Nobody likes their insurance company.

I find it especially ironic that the demographic most opposed to healthcare reform are seniors. I don’t want to see granny’s healthcare limited or lessened in any way, but it’s the folks who are already receiving government provided health insurance who are most opposed to this alleged “goverment takeover” of the healthcare system. They fear that extending that government assistance to younger people will adversely affect the good deal they have going. An understandable concern but also pretty selfish. And I’ve yet to say language in the proposed legislation stating that Medicare recipients are going to lose anything.

I find the euthanasia stuff humorous but also pretty scary because I think a lot of folks are buying it even though what the wingnuts are selling is clearly not what is written in the proposed legislation. Just thinking that congressfolks would even think of including anything that encourages euthanasia is insane. I mean, even in the most authoritarian and wackiest countries on this planet euthanasia is not goverment policy, and certainly not in those evil socialized medicine countries like the UK or Canada or France or Germany. Why would anybody think that any American politician would advocate such a policy? O, I know why – because they think that Obama is the spawn of Satan and a socialist, commie, fascist, terrorist loving illegal immigrant who went to Hawaii near the end of the campaign season last year to off his aging and ill grandmother.

I were just struck wi’ this thought whilst in th’ rain locker this mornin’ (settle yerself, neoexile!) – wha’ if th’ health “care” lobby be WANTIN’ th’ current, watered-t’-nothin, shovelin’ more cash their way “reform” t’ be passin’?
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Wha’ if they be WANTIN’ t’ be sendin’ out a bunch o’ droolin’ spittin’ ragin’ cretins t’ oppose it, just t’ pr’vent folks fr’m realizin’ tha’ th’ legislation current’ under consideration be a pretty flamin’ good deal fer ‘em?
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Wha’ if they be countin’ on (an’ usin’!) their unquestionin’ ignorant legions t’ oppose th’ current legislation forms, just t’ make “reasonable” people react an’ get ‘em t’ come out in favor o’ reform tha’ be nothin’ bu’ a scr*w job fer us all?
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Wha’ if this whole astroturf insanity be a brilliant feint t’ be gettin’ ‘em wha’ they really be wantin’ all along?
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Could it be?
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YARR!

Some polling I’d like to see is of the folks who are disrupting these townhalls across the country. The wingnuts and the GOP are taking the “how dare they call these concerned citizens nuts!” approach to the Dems’ attempts (which I believe are largely – and wisely – targeted to the media) to – correctly – paint these protestors as mostly a bunch of radical nuts organized by astroturf operations funded by the GOP and the insurance industry. So these are just concerned “real Americans” and not a bunch of loonybirds? Let’s poll some of them at these events and find out how many believe Obama was born in the US or how many think Obama is a socialist or how many think that Obama is going to round up all of his opponents and put them in FEMA re-education camps. Also ask them about their knowledge of the proposed legislation currently going through Congress. Find out where they live relative the district in which they are protesting. I think the results of polling like that will largely back up the Dems claims.

Instead o’ astroturf, per’aps this be an application o’ fauxstroturf?!
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YARR!

So, re the polling. Most Americans want substantive health care reform. Congress decides to offer them weak tea instead. Americans get confused. I do want health care reform, but maybe I don’t want weak tea.

Then Congress decides it can’t pass serious reform because polls show that Americans are confused by Congress’ reluctance to pass serious reform.

Also: “Rumors” is a nice word for “lies.” This is a disinformation campaign from the same people who whinge about “bipartisanship.”

A very interesting theory. I don’t think that’s what’s happening but a very interesting theory indeed. And not completely outside of the realm of possibility. I mean, if you don’t want something to pass through Congress, are the goofballs showing up at these townhalls really the people you want on the frontline of that effort. Recess hasn’t even started yet and you’ve already got people with devil horn posters and effigy hanging. It can only get worse.

First of all, “satisfied” is a nonsense word. The purpose of health care reform isn’t to make health care qualitatively different. The primary purpose is to make health care less expensive. I don’t know anybody (other than Sarah Palin) who would turn down free money if offered.
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Try polling these questions: “Are you satisfied with your current health insurance plan or would you prefer to pay less in premiums?”
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Or “Are you satisfied with your current health insurance plan or would you prefer that your employer pay less in premiums and increase your salary accordingly?”
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Or “Are you satisfied with your current health insurance plan or would you prefer that your employer eliminate the administrative overhead of managing your plan and increase your salary accordingly?

carotexas1, She’s really a sweet old lady that I actually liked before she moved in. However, you don’t really know a person until you live with them. Interesting eccentricities when taken in small doses quickly turn into huge character flaws when you’re subjected to them 24/7.

My wife’s previous husband is a minister. I’m an atheist. It’s been 11 years and she still can’t deal with it. Half of the time she starts singing hymns whenever I walk into the room. She either thinks I’m going to convert or else spontaneously combust.

Oh come on KT–
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And you don’t think the public being overwhelmed doesn’t have more to do with the media meme that Obama was doing too much and needed to slow down, that you’ll got from GOP talking points?
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Now, I get your need to somewhat defend your profession, let’s c all it “the thin by line” it’s akin to the blue line that compelled a black cop in Cambridge to back up Crowley, despite us knowing he falsified the police report. Your people have been pushing the meme of doing too much ever since the campaign when he refused to tell Bob Seifer what he would have to cut back in light of the economic meltdown.
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If you’re even a little bit honest, you will acknowledge that the media pushed this meme even though polling said the American public thought otherwise. Come on KT, you can come up with something better and you can’t get a pass because we adore you.

“It is possible for people to hold contradictions in their brains, which is one of the reasons that this issue has defeated just about everyone who has tried to deal with it.”
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You mean like, “government-run health care is scarely” and “I love my Medicare”? That sort of contradiction?
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People are simply brainwashed from 30 years of conservative anti-government propaganda. Now how could people wind up so fundamentally confused about reality with 24/7 mass media filled with trained journalists to tell them the truth of things? Hmmmm…
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Anyway, thanks for the propaganda debunking on this issue, KT.

Sacred –
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It wouldn’t be difficult at all if journalists would simply state the facts at the same time as they print, or provide the sound bites. What is the point of a research department if it’s only function is to determine if something borderline will get you sued. How hard can it be to say “the GOP spokesperson said health care reform will cost one trillion dollars and Democrats say it will save money in the long run — while we don’t know whose prediction will turn out to be right, the record shows that in 1993 we spent 950 billion and in 2009 it is costing us 2 trillion. so clearly doing nothing is worst.
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If they can get together to interview each other to gather their collective opinions — much like a media focus group, they could get together to review facts. Yes, everyone is entitled to their own spin, but there is only one set of facts and if the media would do their job as fact finder instead of doing the job of political consultants to do message framing and strategy we would all be better off. Who knows maybe their industry wouldn’t be shrinking.

Not on topic but…not a word about the two freed journalists?

Odd.

Absolute’!
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If EV’RY time one o’ them puss-spewin’ yahoos opened their yaps on th’ TV, th’ follow up question fr’m th’ “joirnalist” be:
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“Excuse me, Senator/Congressman-woman/lobbyist/talking head, but are you simply repeating unchecked, unverified assumptions, or do you know what you’re saying isn’t true and so are lying on purpose?”
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I think it’d be a safe bet that they’d all shut up real quick-like!
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Aye – li’ THA’ be goin’ t’ be happenin’!
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YARR!

“You mean like, “government-run health care is scarely” and “I love my Medicare”? That sort of contradiction?”
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Which makes me wonder why a solution such as decreasing the age a person qualifies for Medicare incrementally (say, by 5 years every year) hasn’t been on the table. Think about that — by 2015 forty year olds would be covered. By 2023 everyone would be covered. Is there’s a chance that will happen with the current path we’re on? My point is that building on a plan everyone is familiar with already and likes for the most part could have eliminated a lot of the false rumors.

Dee,

I agree with most of what you say but I think one of the major problems is that the facts are being interpreted by people just like us. We all hold different viewpoints to one degree or another. It’s like the glass that has water in it at the halway point. Is it half full or half empty? It’s both.

We can take the same facts and make them mean whatever we want them to. You and I (and a good many Swamplanders) can look at the spin and spot the bullsh!t as soon as we see it. I’m not sure how informed the average American is about HC reform, but I’d bet my next paycheck that it’s a minor fraction of what we know.

I think KT is fighting the good fight but she’s hamstrung by the increasingly difficult job of reporting the facts and having to simultaneously try to cut through the crap to present a coherent message to the public at large.

Other journalists aren’t even trying to inform the public. They’re trying to sway the public based on their own agendas. Karen has taken on a thankless job that is vitally important to both us and the country. I appreciate her efforts, but if it was me I’d have probably thrown in the towel by now.

Too bad it were “off th’ table” fr’m th’ beginnin…
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They wouldn’a been wantin’ t’ be upsettin’ any o’ their corporate pimps, ye know!
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YARR!

Yeah but you do get that no matter how much sense a single payer plan makes, too many Americans don’t have the emotional maturity it requires to accept it.
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Otherwise, they wouldn’t buy these ridiculous dog whistles that tell them the health plan will kill old people that health reform is going to take away their health care and give it to black people or that a single payer system is force them into health plans with poor people get.

Sacred and Dee, another problem has been other corporate media’s laziness in NOT telling us who’s behind the talking points. Those famous teabagging protests (thanks to Rachael Maddow and AMC for at least hinting what that term really means) but many of those earlier protests were backed by RW groups. But did Brian Williams tell us that? Jane Hamsher pointed out this lobbying effort “HC protest” (ha!) that CBS blindly parroted without digging deeper –
http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/08/04/how-come-cbs-journalists-cant-recognize-paid-lobbyists-when-they-see-them/ …we do our best here to separate truth from BS but TV “media” aren’t always making it us for us.
…and I appreciate KT’s efforts too and respond in kind by trying to make her laugh openly here, but I think this is failing, alas…. *sigh*

How long before we begin referring to proponents of health care reform as “The Silent Majority”?
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http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2009/08/hcan-playbook-for-thwarting-town-hall-protesters.php?page=1&ref=fpblg
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Yes, its about corporate players, but not just Democrats answering to their corporate masters. These are the same arguments that were made in the sixties with Medicare. The only reason it passed then, with only Democratic votes I might add, is because the vast majority felt sorry for the poor old people it was supposed to help. Now attempts to expand that to universal health care is seen as expanding health care for poor old people to everyone and that’s why we never got it. Most Americans won’t talk about it, but our class and racial divides have kept this country from any true Social Democratic growth. Corporate interest has always been able to divide us and weaken our strength of numbers using race and class.

Aye, Dee,
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If only we had a functionin’ 4th estate!
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YARR.

Here’s a bit of fine reporting on corporate interest (and dishonesty) by Zachary Roth at TPM Muckraker.

What’s going on now is the Republicans (I’ll include the Blue Dogs) and their corporate masters are swift-boating health care.
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I sense a theme emerging:
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The first casualty of corporatism: truth
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The for-profit news business never had a chance.

I don’t necessarily think it’s lack of emotional maturity, more likely just not enough people have hit rock bottom with health care yet.
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Many industries suffer the consequences of unsustainability. No matter how hard they argue or push back the inevitable eventually happens. Technology eliminates jobs, lack of resources eliminates industries. When forced we all learn how to adapt and find new ways to use our knowledge and skills in sustainable ways.
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If the Medicare age was reduced incrementally year by year, it would allow for adjustments to be made slowly in funding as well as creating new avenues for private insurance. That seems generous to both insurance companies and care recipients.

“…but our class and racial divides have kept this country from any true Social Democratic growth. Corporate interest has always been able to divide us and weaken our strength of numbers using race and class.”

Where I live shows a similar divide. Without dropping names, my apt. complex, neighboring condos, and small homes at the edge of the city have a diverse cultural mix but are mostly lower middle class, blue-collar, recent grads, etc. Literally across the street is an upper income suburb that mirrors Wisteria Lane…and yes, alas, it’s mostly white. Each neighborhood shares same polling place but not voting districts. My area is Democratic; Wisteria Lane is overwhelmingly Republican. Election Day is always entertaining; you can always pick out the two groups, we even dress differently, ha! Is this all a coincidence? Not likely. Maybe my neighborhood shows that we’re making progress but Bree’s area shows we still have work to do.

Sacred, any chance of singing along on hymns but mangle the lyrics into mondegreens? Such as “Keep Thou My Way”’s “…kept by thy tender care, *gladly the cross-eyed bear*…” or worse? Maybe that will silence everyone else.

Word… but it’s the earnings, alas. Wall St. rewards steady earnings…with major exceptions of options traders and short sellers, who reward volatility. Go figure. But why can’t many corporations see that taking care of customers (in media, means feeding us the truth already) means more loyal business, and thus more profits. Demerits of fast food aside, McDonalds for the most part gets this. Corporate Media[tm] does not.

PW
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So, I take it you read my love note…

What’s funny is Joan Walsh tried to make this point and Tweety called her a Marxist. she won’t be back any time soon. She’s officially on the loony left.

I remember hearing Johnny Apple, the late DC bureau chief of the NY times, say that “he wasn’t in the business of educating the public — the job of newspapers was to validate the opinions already held by society.” — That stuck with me all these years because I thought what a rare moment of absolute candor.
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I met him once in grad school back when I toyed with the idea of journalism as a career, and he told me that racial diversity isn’t helpful if everyone is traveling in the same circles, reporters all coming from the same ivy league schools and vacationing on the same island retreats. Diversity that matters has much more to do with class where struggle and conflict have a chance to forge different perspectives.

Good for Joan. It’s a badge of honor. What is it with Tweety and women on the air? Examples: making Erin Burnett lean into the camera to get a closer look, giving Margaret Brennan a hard time (she brushed him off like a fly), and then there was Hillary, Pelosi, Ingraham, Hillary (did I mention her?). Yes, most men admire women, that’s in our DNA, but some respect and discretion is needed on TV “news”, even “Hardball” which I consider to be “Jerry Springer” without the fistfights. I like Springer more; it’s honest.

I don’t know about you, but frankly I don’t want to wait for enough people to be so bad off that they no longer can afford to care if they end up in the same plan as the poor and melanin gifted. If they weren’t so hung up on holding on to these ridiculous vestiges of faux privilege, we would have had universal health care already.

…well, cr@p. With the possible exception of Brooks, ALL of the Swamplanders are Ivy League grads. Yes, getting a diploma from a Ivy school is a great honor – it worked out for Obama – but still, that diversity thingy might help. There must be some semi-ok j-schools out there in the South, tiny midwest rural colleges, or even Hawaii or Idaho (yes, Sarah whatshername graduated from Idaho in journalism)? C’mon TIME High Chiefs, stop hiring only “your own”and hit the nationwide campus trail already. Dee, thanks for this, you’re on a roll today….

[...] a one-line blog post, "Health Reform: Euthanasia and Other Rumors," Time magazine’s Karen Tumulty pointed readers to a blog post at The New [...]

I don’t want to wait either. I’m currently a member of the uninsured due to being self employed, relatively young and exceptionally health conscious. It was a choice I made in an effort to balance some of the accounts I lost when the economy tanked, but I’m hoping to reinstate coverage soon. You bet I’m watching closely what happens with health care, writing letters, etc. The reason I suggested the yearly age decrease for Medicare (though i’d rather not wait) is that it’s a simple, easily explained solution that would have less unknowns and hopefully reduce detrimental rumors.

“Democracy, taken in its narrower, purely political sense, suffers from the fact that those in economic and political power possess the means for molding public opinion to serve their own class interests.
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~Albert Einstein

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That was true even when we had real, working-class journalists.
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I have no trouble understanding the inability of journalists to truly empathize with working-class people (even as they fetishize them) but what I’d really like to know is the mechanisms by which liberals and liberal viewpoints are almost completely embargoed by the corporate press. It’s like a political correctness that infects the entire news business (and what makes professional comedians like Jon Stewart, who feel free to express liberal viewpoints, more credible as “fair-and-balanced” conveyors of cultural reality).
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Obviously, excluding liberal ideas from the public conversation is good for inculcating “conservative” (read: corporatist) dogma which is good for our corporate masters, including the owners of our mass media, but I’d sure like to hear from the inside how that censorship of liberalism is enforced from day to day (for instance, is it as simple as constant editorial push-back for fear of the howling right or do journalists self-censor for the same or other reasons?)
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But kudos to Karen for pointing us to the liberal truth of the issues at hand.

Speaking of class:
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“One percent of the nation owns a third of the wealth. The rest of the wealth is distributed in such a way as to turn those in the 99 percent against one another: small property owners against the propertyless, black against white, native-born against foreign-born, intellectuals and professionals against the uneducated and unskilled. These groups have resented one another and warred against one another with such vehemence and violence as to obscure their common position as sharers of leftovers in a very wealthy country.
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How skillful to tax the middle class to pay for the relief of the poor, building resentment on top of humiliation! How adroit to bus poor black youngsters into poor white neighborhoods, in a violent exchange of impoverished schools, while the schools of the rich remain untouched and the wealth of the nation, doled out carefully where children need free milk, is drained for billion-dollar aircraft carriers. How ingenious to meet the demands of blacks and women for equality by giving them small special benefits, and setting them in competition with everyone else for jobs made scarce by an irrational, wasteful system. How wise to turn the fear and anger of the majority toward a class of criminals bred-by economic inequity-faster than they can be put away, deflecting attention from the huge thefts of national resources carried out within the law by men in executive offices.
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In a highly developed society, the Establishment cannot survive without the obedience and loyalty of millions of people who are given small rewards to keep the system going: the soldiers and police, teachers and ministers, administrators and social workers, technicians and production workers, doctors, lawyers, nurses, transport and communications workers, garbage men and firemen. These people-the employed, the somewhat privileged-are drawn into alliance with the elite. They become the guards of the system, buffers between the upper and lower classes. If they stop obeying, the system falls.
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That will happen, I think, only when all of us who are slightly privileged and slightly uneasy begin to see that we are like the guards in the prison uprising at Attica—expendable; that the Establishment, whatever rewards it gives us, will also, if necessary to maintain its control, kill us.”
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Howard Zinn, A People’s History of the US, 1980

Oregon JC:
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…the soldiers and police, teachers and ministers, administrators and social workers, technicians and production workers, doctors, lawyers, nurses, transport and communications workers, garbage men and firemen. These people-the employed, the somewhat privileged-are drawn into alliance with the elite. They become the guards of the system, buffers between the upper and lower classes. If they stop obeying, the system falls.
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Zinn has made a grave omission: he failed to include authors and journalists in his list of stakeholders in the permanent status quo.

SZ, perhaps like you and I, he thought that’d be stating the obvious! The somewhat privileged he describes are largely unconscious of the con game. Whereas “journalists” are so earnest in their fanboy-ism, their he-said/she-said high school gossip network. MS at a press conference–as intrepid as a sports reporter seeing his first locker room towel-whipping, or Joan Rivers on the red carpet… David Brooks’ adulation of our ruling class springs to mind, or his namesake in the Swamp (our “CEO Stars!”)

I don’t believe that journalists were big stakeholders in the status quo back in 1980.

That’s my impression, at least.
~

…well, cr@p. With the possible exception of Brooks, ALL of the Swamplanders are Ivy League grads. Yes, getting a diploma from a Ivy school is a great honor – it worked out for Obama – but still, that diversity thingy might help. There must be some semi-ok j-schools out there in the South, tiny midwest rural colleges, or even Hawaii or Idaho (yes, Sarah whatshername graduated from Idaho in journalism)? C’mon TIME High Chiefs, stop hiring only “your own”and hit the nationwide campus trail already.
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Not to name drop, and unfortunately he’s long departed, but Edward R. Murrow went to my university (Washington State). In fact the school of communications is named for him and is one of the largest majors on campus. Plus we’re eight miles from the University of Idaho, where Bible Spice finally finished up. So if TIME is looking for diversity, I know a good place they can look!

Time’s Tumulty Points Readers to Scholar Who Suggests ObamaCare Opponents Racist, Xenophobic
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2009/08/05/times-tumulty-points-readers-scholar-who-suggests-obamacare-opponents-

Perfect.
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So Karen, does this trenchant analysis (“he’s a liberal, I tells ya!”) from Ken Shepherd (thankfully, no relation) or any additional reaction from the right-wing mouth-breathers who read Newsbusters create any possible political problems for you with The Editors? (Wink once for no…)

Ahhh – yutsano –
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Ye be a bloody COUGAR?!
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I be ri’ crushed!

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Le’ me be tryin’ t’ ferget ye ever said tha’…tho’ if I ever be wantin’ t’ party, I’ be knowin’ who t’ be lookin’ fer !
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Arrgh – GO DAWGS!

deconstructiva,

If I’m in a good mood, I sing along making up obscene lyrics and touch the end of my nose with my tongue. That usually distracts her.

She’ll never sing “Come All Ye Faithful” at me again. That one was a gift from heaven and brought out the mime in me.

As lobbyist-run groups encourage conservative activists to “rattle” members of Congress at local town hall events, Rep. Gerry Connolly (D-VA), the president of the freshman Democratic class has revealed that “at least one freshman Democrat” has already been “physically assaulted at a local event.” Connolly warned that conservative groups had taken things to a “dangerous level“:

“When you look at the fervor of some of these people who are all being whipped up by the right-wing talking heads on Fox, to me, you’re crossing a line,’ Connolly said. ‘They’re inciting people to riot with just total distortions of facts. They think we’re going to euthanize Grandma and the government is going to take over.”

Recent events have given congressman good reason to be “fearful for their safety.” Last week, a protester hung an effigy of freshman Rep. Frank Kratovil (D-MD) outside his district office, and after a June 22 town hall meeting was disrupted by an “unruly mob” of tea party activists, Rep. Tim Bishop (D-NY) had to be escorted to his car by police. ThinkProgress contacted Connolly’s office regarding the identity of the congressman who was physically assaulted, but we have not yet received a response.

Will things escalate or de-escalate?