In the Arena

The Health Care Morass

Washington, it is well known, was built on a swamp. In summer, it seems especially swampy. And it seems swampiest of all when it is locked in a major legislative struggle–and all of the above is going on right now. The amount of foolish, noxious complicated and misleading statements being tossed around right now (on all sides, by the way) seems to increase exponentially, by the day. Take this, today, from Robert J. Samuelson in the Washington Post:

The notion that the uninsured get little or no care is a myth: They now receive about 50 to 70 percent as much health care as the insured. If they become insured, they would use more health care, possibly as much as today’s insured. That would increase both government and private health spending, depending on how the insurance is provided.

Except maybe not…because we simply don’t know. The 50-70% coverage–I love the numbing, economic nincompoopery of that stat–that they get takes place mostly in emergency rooms, the most expensive health care delivery system imaginable. If those same people had regular primary care physicians, they could nip those emergencies in the bud through preventive care, especially the use of drugs. (Add: In his press conference last week…)The President used the familiar example of a diabetic who, absent preventive care, needs to have an amputation in his press conference last week. (Boy, do I need a vacation.)

In other words, the 30-50% of coverage that the uninsured are not getting might well lower the costs of the 50-70% of coverage that they are. But no one knows. That’s one of the reasons why it is difficult for the Congressional Budget Office to “score” the cost of these bills. 

No doubt, Samuelson has a point. Cover everyone and it costs more–but we don’t know how much more, and it may cost less than we think. It will certainly cost less in the areas economists can’t quantify, but which have very real economic impacts: in the level of panic and uncertainty that exists in the society, the opportunity cost in entrepreneurial energy among people who might start a new business but are locked into their jobs because they need their health benefits–and a thousand other, non-fiscal benefits.

One of my favorite Springsteen lyrics is, “We’ve got to start saving up for the things that money can’t buy.” That’s the best argument for a health care system that costs less in anxiety and unfairness. In the end, a conversation about universal health care can’t just be about money. It has to also be about values, about what sort of society we want to be–and need to be in an era of economic volatility and uncertainty.

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  • Matt

    But what if life-saving care is outside of that bizarre “50-70 percent” figure? Arguments against health care keep getting loonier and loonier…

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • deconstructiva

    Cenk Uygur once said, “There are some things we should not base on your salary, and whether you live or die is one of them.”
    Word.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    So, if ye be maintainin’ it be costin’ more t’ be coverin’ ev’ryone, can ye be tellin me how every country tha’ be havin’ a single-payer system tha’ be coverin’ EV’RYONE, an’ cov’rin EV’RYONE fer more services (medical, dental, vision, mental health, etc.) than we be providin’, manage t’ be doin’ it wi’ so much LESS o’ their GDPs, an’ fer so much BETTER outcomes?

    ‘Ow d’ ye be explainin’ tha’?

    Ye OUGHT t’ be explainin’ tha’, instead o’ offerin’ unfounded guesses an’ perpetuatin’ th’ corporate line!

    An’ why don’t no one in th’ press be thinkin’ t’ be demandin’ those makin’ decisions t’ be explainin’ exact’ WHY single-payer were taken off th’ table fr’m th’ beginnin’, when it be appearin’ single-payer be th’ only option fer coverin’ everyone, pr’vidin’ better health care outcomes, AN’ costin’ less?

    Single-payer shouldn’a be off th’ table until we be pr’vided a factual comparison wi’ th’ other options, an’ until WE say it be off th’ table! Ye ought t’ be explainin’ why th’ press were rollin’ o’er like such good dogs acceptin’ th’ removal wi’out so much as a whimper.

    Bu’ then, ye’d ‘ave t’ be explainin’ why th’ press no’ be doin’ their jobs! Ye all be talkin’ a lot ’bout process, bu’ I don’t s’ppose ye want t’ be talkin’ ’bout THA’ process!

    YARR!

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    One of the factors I don’t see mentioned nearly often enough.

    If you go in for a procedure and are insured the hospital will accept $30,000 as settlement from the insurer to pay for the procedure. If, on the other hand, you have no coverage, the bill is actual on the order of $90-$120,000.

    As long as the actual costs of procedures are being padded to make up for delinquent patients and the actual cost of services are being buried under piles of self-dealing accounting, then anything anybody says about cost savings OR excessive cost is guaranteed to be wrong.

    The lies extend all the way down to the core of current practice.

  • plukasiak

    . The amount of foolish, noxious complicated and misleading statements being tossed around right now (on all sides, by the way) seems to increase exponentially, by the day.

    Joe provides the insurance company parasites full cover by taking a false “everyone is equally bad” stance on lies and disinformation being spread on the issue of health care reform!

  • messenia

    “…They now receive about 50 to 70 percent as much health care as the insured.”

    Okay, lets see where that takes us:

    Recent surveys indicate that 45% of insured are postpoining or avoiding care due to unaffordability.

    That leaves 55% of the insured who are getting care.

    55% of (50-70) works out to 27%-35% of care for uninsured.

    And that assumes that Samuelson’s original assertion is valid.

    The real problem here though, is framing the discussion around health insurance. Insurance does not equal coverage and coverage does not equal care. We need a national healthcare policy, not a program to fatten insurance company profits.

  • kjata30

    Who are you kidding? Joe is absolutely correct in asserting that Ds, Rs, and corporations are throwing around inaccurate information. Corporations and Republicans aren’t all evil just because you claim they are.

    Excellent journalism Joe — I enjoyed the lack of partisanship.

  • donovong

    “The amount of foolish, noxious complicated and misleading statements being tossed around right now (on all sides, by the way)”

    Joe: Please provide us with any disinformation that has been promoted by proponents of health care reform. I am not aware of any, and have seen a disproportionate amount of BS from the right-wing party. Otherwise, stop the false equivalence.

  • cfukara

    ” .. foolish, noxious complicated and misleading”

    Look at all these bad Americans who want big government!
    Why, O Why, can’t these bums be hard-working good players in our American system of free enterprise – just like Bill Gates and those CEOs of failed businesses who get millions as reward/severance for a hatchet job well done!

    And our USA is teeming with over 40 millions of such dastardly moochers! In capitalist USA!
    Heck! Socialist Europe can have them!

    ['Competition', 'Capitalism' and 'free enterprise' does NOT mean that American businesses have to compete freely with cheaper options even if the discerning cheapskates - the "We, the people" - in USA want them!]

  • kjata30

    @ PW:

    I’m glad that single-payer is off the table, for several reasons.

    1. Gov’t plans and programs of comparable scale (Medicare, social security, etc.) have historically been run poorly and unsustainably.

    2. A single gov’t option would significantly reduce the luxury of choice we now enjoy.

    3. Taxes will likely go through the roof. I’d much rather decide what to do with my money than have the gov’t decide for me.

    Regulation is a much better idea than a gov’t run program. Regulation still allows competition to drive prices down and would (hopefully) increase transparency in an obviously opaque and broken system.

    As a side note — your arguments are always clear and comments enjoyable to read, but translations would be nice :)

  • kjata30

    Come off it — politicians are politicians, blue and red alike. Dems would promise us Christmas in July if it would get the bill through congress.

  • kbanginmotown

    “…a diabetic who, absent preventive care, needs to have an amputation in his press conference last week.”

    What?!? How did I miss this? Did Obama do the amputation himself during the press conference, or was he the anesthesiologist? D@mn, Obama’s good. Is there a video on YouTube?

  • cfukara

    Our capitalism – or rather, the rich elites who own the tools of propaganda – seems to embrace moochers at the high end of society.
    The mass of moochers struggling at the low-end are despised – even if over 70% of Americans, the gentler Americans, have compassion for them.

  • deconstructiva

    Do you favor a 100% private market HC system? If yes, how do you make it accessible to everyone?

  • plukasiak

    where are Ds throwing around the kind of toxic information that is coming from the GOP obstructionists, and the corporate parasites?

    It doesn’t happen. The worst stuff you get from Ds is in their perpetuation of the fantasy that significant reform can be accomplished within the for-profit insurance company framework…. and that’s a far cry from the fear-mongering of the GOP (funded by the parasites)

  • kjata30

    Relatively simple concept, but realistically difficult to employ: mandate that insurance companies that offer basic packages only offer such packages, and offer them to everyone, regardless of pre-existing conditions. Companies that want to offer “premium” packages can use other methods of determination in accepting customers.

    Corporations of the first group would be regulated, work at non-profit levels, and earn X% on top, and corporations in the second group would go about business as usual.

    The advantage of this is that we utilize business and human capital that is currently in place; we don’t have to jump-start an enormous gov’t program to cover everyone. And our ability to choose amongst insurers is not compromised.

  • plukasiak

    Are you’re parents and grandparents still alive?

    Do you think they could afford their own medical care were it not for Medicare? Would you be willing to impoverish yourself to ensure they did get adequate care?

    Because Medicare is a single payer system that works far better than anything the free market offers — and your loved ones would probably be living off of dog food were it not for that particular “single payer” system — because you obviously care more for your “luxury of choice” than you do about the rest of humanity.

  • cfukara

    ” .. 2. A single gov’t option would significantly reduce the luxury of choice we now enjoy. ..”

    What do you have against “free enterprise” or “market forces” or “survival of the fittest” or “give the people choices and let the people decide” or any of the many catchphrases paraded by the conservatives in good times?

    Is a reduction in number of choices – which comes about as a result of the less competitive players exiting the market place – undesirable?
    What do you have against “capitalism”? Or don’t you believe that “luxury of choices” must exclude some – the cheaper ones?
    Is your standard of “luxury” better than that of other Americans? Don’t you trust that we, the people, have a capacity to choose what is best among competing options? [Here is where you insert your canned duplicitous retorts.]

  • yoshiattack

    kbanginmotown
    July 27, 2009
    at 1:51 pm

    LOL…

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    I’ll only be tellin’ ye this one time – since ye appear t’ be new –

    I don’t be wastin’ me time respondin’ t’ comments tha’ be consistin’ o’ unsupported opinions, such as:

    1.

    2.

    3.

    fr’m yer most recent post.

    Thar be plenty o’ objective information available tha’ be contradictin’ yer “arguments”, so if ye expect t’ be taken serious, ye’d best be pr’vidin’ more evidence than just th’ usual, already disproven talkin’ points.

    Consider tha’ yer warnin’ bow shot, matey – ye’ll no’ be gettin’ another!

    YARR!

  • shepherdwong

    I wonder if Samuelson has ever had to get his care from a hospital emergency room…in Washington. Just kidding. Shorter Samuelson: I got a great plan; f@ck the rest of you.

    There will be lots of opportunities to address cost – in addition to getting people out of the ER and into primary care – but this is about covering everyone and providing the mechanism, particularly a public plan, to enact a wellness model for health care. It’s the only thing that will save us.

  • junkmailqueen

    kjata30, you do know that your conservative friends will disown you for suggesting MORE regulation of private industry …

    In any case, as Joe says, this is not so much about health care as it is about what kind of people we are. And what you suggest, what we are right now, is a nation that views health care as a luxury, a benefit, available only to the elect who are either very wealthy or who are lucky enough to land a job with a good HC package.

    What progressives want is a society in which health care is a right. I

    t’s a pretty fundamental difference, and it makes me uninterested in debating the details with conservatives like you or, for that matter, any Republicans or other health care opponents. You all see America as a different place than I do. You’re never going to change your underlying belief that health care is a benefit, which, by definition, should be delivered as benefits always are, that is, only to certain people via the free-market, capitalist system that selects those certain people. And I’m never going to change my view of health care as a right for all Americans, which, like all of the rights we currently enjoy, is solely the responsibility of our government.

    It’s because of this fundamental difference in views that I don’t think any Republican or conservative will EVER vote for health care reform: It would mean helping the unwashed masses obtain something they consider a benefit only for the elite, and that goes against everything they believe in.

    It’s also why Henry Waxman et al will have to steamroll this thing over the backs of the elitists, come hell or high water.

  • deconstructiva

    kj, you’re right; we’d need a mandate. Denying claims / pre-existing conditions is a huge problem…for starters. It’s ironic but necessary to have regulation aka govt. intrusion per RW talking points. I still think Big Insurance is practicing medicine sight unseen or without a license when they balk at treatments, etc. thus directly affecting patients…which should be illegal per state health boards.

    But still, some people simply have no money, period. Now what? To others, forgive my broken record (to pirated music downloaders, what’s that?) but I’d still argue for a minimum public safety net since HC is a safety necessity like police and fire protection… in addition to a private system for those who can pay. Such as. (okay, am polite about disagreeing here instead of ranting, now feel I should atone for that.)

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng
  • redraven937

    Regulation still allows competition to drive prices down

    hahahahahahahahaha

    Please, tell the class how health insurance prices will ever go down given their present, capitalism-driven trajectory.

  • cfukara

    Damm!
    And may her majesty Olive Oyl, the PW, loose the ” ‘ ” and ‘YARR!’ keys on her keyboard!

    AHOY!

  • shepherdwong

    Plain and simple, in the never-ending struggle against the oligarchy there came a time not too long ago when journalists simply switched sides:

    ” Many of the old-timers were the first in their families to go to college, or they were hired straight out of high school or the military and worked their way up the newsroom ranks. It’s easier to see the stories of hard-working Americans and immigrants when they reflect the narratives of your own family, your own neighborhood.

    By the 1990s, the landscape in newsrooms across the country clearly was changing. Longtime reporters and editors retired, and increasingly were replaced by second- and even third-generation college graduates who had little in common with “the underdog,” that handy euphemism we employ for those who suffer in silence and anonymity until we step in.

    Some of us detected a growing resistance of newspapers to covering these stories.”

    –Connie Schultz, Cleveland Plain Dealer

    Given the present circumstance, I think that makes columnists like Joe Klein, Krugman, Conason, etc. particularly praiseworthy.

  • kjata30

    Lots of replies, little time.

    @plukasiak:

    Medicare, effective? You’re out of your mind.

    @ PW:

    Ouch. Sorry. I’ll do my homework from now on. Still, if you know the argument against my points, I’d rather hear it than fish around for it.

    @ JMQ:

    Yeah, my conservative friends probably would. But regulation is not necessarily a bad thing. De-regulation worked well with the nuclear industry, but was terrible for the financial market (obviously). Regulating the insurance industry could bring about the reform we want without implementing a far-reaching gov’t program.

    You’re right again in noting that a fundamental gap exists between people when it comes to health care: right, or privilege? I personally think with the way Americans live today, it is a right. Governors can’t be flying jets to Brazil while the poor die because they can’t get into a doctor’s office. I just don’t feel a gov’t option is the best choice.

    @deconstructiva:

    Of the 47 million uninsured, less than half can’t actually afford it. The others are misrepresented or choose not to partake. As it is, those without insurance can walk into an ER at any time and receive emergency care. Obviously this is not the right way to go about it, but neither is giving out hand-outs. This provides no incentive for those who cannot get insurance to ever reach a level where they can. The gov’t should aid and educate those who cannot afford it, so that they may one day be able to.

    My biggest concerns with public insurance are costs and options. Simply put, I don’t want to pay more taxes and I don’t want to be limited to just one choice. I would rather pay higher premiums and select exactly the coverage I want.

    Phew. Sorry for the rant.

  • kjata30

    You obviously have no understanding of economics. Sorry.

  • kjata30

    Its very hard to take you seriously when you use the word “parasites” in a political discussion.

    But let’s talk about the irony of what you’re saying. You’re attacking corporations and at the same time defending Democrats when our Congress, run by a Democrat super-majority, is talking about spending over $1 trillion of our money on reform. After spending over $700 billion to bail out our economy. Again, with our money. Who are the real parasites?

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    kjata30 –

    Alri’ me hearty – ye were havin’ yer chance, an’ ye were failin’ th’ test!

    Ye be soundin’ suspicious li’ neoexile on one o’ is’ bad days when he be relyin’ on twistin’ an’ contortin’ th’ facts an’ obfuscatin’ ‘is own responses instead o’ engagin in honest discussion!

    A’ least we be aware ‘e be capable o’ th’ latter, when ‘e be in th’ mood!

    Ye’ve no’ demonstrated a whit o’ th’ same, so,

    This be me one an’ only response t’ ye:

    Go F yerself!

    I’ll be wastin no more o’ me time readin’ nor respondin’ t’ ye – th’ rest o’ th; crew feel free t’ ‘ave at it – exceptin’ on NF Thursdays, o’ course!

    YARR!

  • androidboy420

    Lemme tell you a little story…
    Back in 2000 I lived in Cali. That was when the Enron guys were ganking the common citizen on their energy bills. (It’s history. Look it up.) I lived in Sacramento, where I had two different utilities…one for gas (PG&E or Pacific Gas and Electric) and one for electricity (SMUD or the Sacramento Municipal Utility District). PG&E is a privately held company, while SMUD is a publicly held co-operative. During the “crisis” my gas bill was $200 a month, (A 2000% increase. I used gas only to heat water.) My elecricity bill was $150 a month–$25 more than a common month. I was using electricity for everything else. Mind you that this was in the summer, so the AC was going 80% of the time. I wonder why I got my power for so much less than the PG&E customers did…oh yeah…ENRON WAS SCREWING US!!! Again, this is history
    This illustrates something that the corporations don’t want you to know…they’re trying their hardest to bend you over and “treat you like a lady”. Insurance companies are the worst. With one tongue they say “government is inefficient” and with the other they say, “We can’t compete against a government-run plan”. I know the second to be true. This is not some abstract principle…an idea to be debated. I have experienced the difference IN REAL LIFE. I wonder how many of you commenters have gone to your congesspersons website and made your opinion heard. DO IT NOW!
    They say that those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it…that’s not entirely true. I remember history but it looks like I’m going to be forced into repeating it.

  • grape_crush

    @kjata30: Raven’s challenge is still there. Please reconcile what is supposed to happen according to economic theory to what actually happens in the real world.

  • kjata30

    I honestly marked you as one of the people I’d like to discuss with on here, I don’t know why you’re so offended.

    Just because my views are less liberal does not mean they should be thrown overboard, so to speak.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    I be b’lievin’ me own representatives an me own president be so sick o’ hearin’ me opinion (SINGLE-PAYER!), an’ havin’ their staffs send me boilerplate responses t’ me demands tha’ they be explainin’ t’ me why SINGLE-PAYER be no’ on th’ table, tha’ they don’t even be botherin’ t’ read me notes ‘r listen t’ me phone messages no more!

    Why?

    Money = influence, me hearties, money = influence! Corporate health be havin’ it all sewn up already – mark th’ pirate’s words! No single-payer, lots more money fer private insurance corporations, an’ watered-down-t’-worthless ‘r sacrificed fer “bipartisanship” public option! Tha’s wha’ we’ll be gettin’ when this be all over!

    An’ no peep o’ protest fr’m th’ 4th estate, neither!

    YARR!

  • kjata30

    @ grape_crush

    Every response from you has been incendiary and provocative. Barring reconciliation, this will be the last time I respond to your posts.

    I did not imply that I could reconcile theory with reality, only that it was largely apparent that red knew nothing about economics. Claiming that competition does not generally drive down costs is incorrect.

  • androidboy420

    Let me tell you why you’re wrong.
    The common argument is that business, in it’s pursuit of the dollar, cuts out unnecessary cost, expenses not related to the product they produce.
    Conversely, government has no motivation to reduce administrative overhead, so they are “less efficient” and “more costly”.
    The problem with that argument is that the product of an insurance company IS administration. That administration cost is much higher because that is in the interest of their bottom line.
    Think about that.
    While you’re thinking about that, consider that the administrative costs for medicare is around 3% while private insurance companies have 9-15% administrative overhead.
    While you’re making up an argument to invalidate my last point, consider that the insurance industry is saying that they can’t compete against a government-run plan.
    To me that’s a tacit admission that they are screwing you. The funny thing is, you don’t want them to stop.

  • shepherdwong

    “Your views” are easily recognizable industry propaganda and right-wing talking points that are easily disproved. That, and the fact that you are so deluded as to not be able to critically examine your beliefs in light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is why thinking people have no use for a discussion with you. For us it’s just like having an argument with a child; occasionally amusing but seldom enlightening.

  • maurice2u

    Looking at your conclusion, I fear that pretty much sums up what we have to look forward to m’lady, unfortunately.

    :(

  • kjata30

    I disagree. The product of an insurance company is obviously not administration. This would be a by-product.

    I have doubts that a universal gov’t plan would be more “efficient” than a regulated private insurance industry in the sense of product quality and administration. Insurance companies argue that they can’t compete with a gov’t option because the gov’t plan will be artificially lower in upfront cost to the consumer due to subsidizing. However, we will make up the difference in taxes.

    And please, I’m not being hostile. I know this is a passionate subject for a lot of people, but I’m just looking for a discussion, not a fight.

  • cfukara

    Hey guys, lets have some good old American free competition in the market place.
    Availability of cheap options does not mean that the market place is less vibrant or that there is no place for high-priced goods and services for the society’s parasitic snobs.

    For instance, the movie stars and oil tycoons go shopping on the famed Rodeo Blvd (Santa Barbara, California) and the high priced shops in Paris while PW – goes to the neighborhood hand-me-down Goodwill donation outlet for her fashion. [And she looks pretty cute.]

    And a good time in the sun is had by all.

    True, there are more of us shopping at the Goodwills and Walmarts – because there are more of us.

    Do the Republicans and Blue Mutts want to shut all except the shops on Rodeo Blvd and Champs Elysées? These people are un-American, I say!

  • kjata30

    I can’t believe how hostile of a reaction I am receiving from this blog.

    We gain nothing from disregarding views outright. If you disagree with my points, argue against them. I don’t work for an insurance company or the Republicans, I’m just an interested reader.

    No one has addressed why the points I’ve made are wrong, only that they are foolish and easily disputable. So dispute them.

  • maurice2u

    With respect to Mr. Klein’s point. It is the same old story. At some point “everything” became for profit. Newsrooms, health care, mega churches, children’s programming ….. everything. We have history books to tell us that no family, community, state or country can survive under that model, but we fell in love with it anyway.

    When that began and we didn’t reject it on a societal level, this all became relatively inevitable. I’m not quite old enough to remember, but I kinda place that fork in the road time the Carter-Regan era. When Carter said the country needed to essentially become more frugal, and Regan said there are no limits because we are America. The country made a choice, and it has only magnified that attitude over time with our relative peace and prosperity.

    What is so crazy is that even in the face of things crumbling apart, and even from the “religious right”, we’ve become so much a me society that any mention of turning away from such a selfish (and self destructive) trend is scorned heavily.

    The only question that remains in my mind is how much damage are we going to have to incur, by our own hands or otherwise, before we get our act together.

  • junkmailqueen

    kjata30, I’m glad you believe in health care as a right. Of course your statement that we live that way now is entertaining if nothing else.

    And in order to preserve that right which we don’t even yet enjoy, your faith in the free market and its fundamental fuel, greed, is touching.

    Myself, I simply don’t trust Blue Cross/Blue Shield to protect any of my rights. Least of all health care.

  • kjata30

    I agree that Americans need to change their lifestyles, but I think you take the argument a little too far.

    “For profit” enterprises do wonders for communities. Almost all of the commodities we take for granted would not be available to us if someone didn’t stand to make a profit selling the things. I agree that some institutions shouldn’t be “for profit” (churches, public utilities, etc.), but economic competition is largely beneficial.

    So to blame all of our woes on corporations is inaccurate at best. We just need to learn to live within our means.

  • kjata30

    The trick is funneling that greed to benefit the people.

    The current model seeks to “insure” as many as possible (i.e. extract premiums) but in reality cover as little as possible. Create a system, as I have described above, that gives incentive to companies to COVER as many as possible, not just “insure.” At least then they will seek to pay our expenses as much as they can, rather than deny them as much as they can.

    Its not paying according to quality of care, which would be ideal, but its better than the status quo.

  • shepherdwong

    Our “hostile reaction” is to views such as these:

    ”I have doubts that a universal gov’t plan would be more “efficient” than a regulated private insurance industry in the sense of product quality and administration. Insurance companies argue that they can’t compete with a gov’t option because the gov’t plan will be artificially lower in upfront cost to the consumer due to subsidizing. However, we will make up the difference in taxes.”

    Most of the folks here spend considerable time and effort to inform themselves about the facts of things – such as the salient fact that the private insurance system costs two to five times as much as other public or public/private systems of every other industrialized nation yet we come out near the bottom on many health measures. People who come here to share their “doubts” and “sense” of things and what insurance companies argue don’t last very long because we’re not interested in the right-wing parlor game of debunking propaganda. Turn off Rush and go study the issues and when you’ve demonstrated any grasp of the facts or insights into the problems then we’ll talk.

  • shepherdwong

    “Create a system, as I have described above, that gives incentive to companies to COVER as many as possible, not just “insure.”

    Exactly what the currently proposed legislation does (sorry it’s not via your own, undoubtedly more brilliant, design). Your completely indoctrinated, knee-jerk hostility to government is what prevents you from understanding even the simplest features of what’s being debated.

  • keillrandor

    Sometimes free competition is NOT the best option…

    Why?

    Competition, especially for $ or £, is good at finding better, efficient and easier ways of earning more £ and $.

    Unfortunately, healthcare, as a whole, is NOT an area where that is the BEST way of doing things.

    Why?

    Because the best health-care is one that is rarely required, and therefore make and spend the least amount of £ and $, in the long-term.

    Industry, by it’s very nature, CANNOT, and WILL NOT, (ever), offer that…

  • deconstructiva

    But kj, is health care to some degree a public safety issue like police / fire, since without it we can die? Imagine cities run by insurance-run fire depts. or private police forces – movie “Robocop” is naively simplistic, but look at the subplot. When top brass choose to break the law, how does its own police force administer justice? Especially when the criminal mgr. (Dick Jones) works with criminal gang like Clarence’s and manipulates the system? There’s lots of room in HC for private business – generic vs. brand drugs and allowing Medicare to negotiate with drug cos. again – but to some degree we need a public safety net. We tacitly gave private HC cos. every chance to make accessibility work. They’ve failed. Millions of uninsured people prove it. And who pays for their ER visits?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    kjata30,
    You have the basic concept right, but it’s always important to look at the particulars. Channeling greed to do good is indeed the basis of Capitalism and it works well at very many things. The things it doesn’t work well at are also easy to identify and in the short form, ‘taking care of people who don’t have a lot of money’ is pretty much top of the list.

    If you look at how poor people actually live you will see layer of layer of exploitation guaranteeing that they remain in a situation where they actually pay significantly MORE for services than mosy people.

    Payday-loan and Rent-to-own storwe are the easiest examples to cite but others abound. ‘The Market’ isn’t magic. It works well, when its designed well. When it’s not, it leads directly to making things worse for people and then taking advantage of the disparity.

  • grape_crush

    @kjata30: Every response from you has been incendiary and provocative.

    Hardly, unless you consider disagreement ‘incendiary and provocative’. I have asked you, simply, to put up or shut up…and here you are, avoiding the subject by getting vapors over the fact that I dispute much of what you have written here

    Barring reconciliation, this will be the last time I respond to your posts.

    Poor me. Whatever will I do without your precious insight?

    I did not imply that I could reconcile theory with reality, only that it was largely apparent that red knew nothing about economics.

    Or is it that you have a blind spot when it comes to reality? (that’s provocation, by-the-way)

    Claiming that competition does not generally drive down costs is incorrect.

    Hmmm…in the health care system we have now, there’s competition aplenty. Why, exactly, does it cost so much*?

    *rhetorical question, as I don’t expect a response.

  • homerhk

    @KJ,

    I understand your positions but must say that if they are not wrong then they are at best incomplete.

    First, let’s tackle inefficiencies as between government and private companies generally. I think when people say government healthcare is inefficient what they really mean is that the service isn’t as good. They look at healthcare as a service and this brings in the OH No! I have to wait three weeks for my non-critical operation with government healthcare but my private insurer will do it tomorrow with a lovely hotel, I mean hospital, room with satellite tv. And that’s fine, if people want that sort of health service they can pay for it. However, what the government, any functioning government really, is very good it is providing basic services across the board. In the US, i’m thinking of the roads, the postal service, homeland security, the police, firemen etc. People often cite the postal service as typical terrible governmental service. well actually it is amazingly good for the provision of the basic service of sending mail very cheaply. sure, if you want a guarantee that the letter will get there or you need it delivered at a certain time you’d use a private courier service.

    This then seques into your second point about single payer reducing competition. No it wouldn’t – insurance companies would simply stop offering basic insurance services and would concentrate on more ‘cadillac’ type insurance policies, ie where government couldn’t compete properly.

    Re taxes, i’m sure they might go up, but if you didn’t have to pay for healthcare through a single payer system (i’m assuming the single payer would be like my country’s system, the NHS, ie free at point of service) you would ultimately be better off. I hear that insurance policies in the US can cost about $1000 a month? If that’s right, there is absolutely no way your taxes will go up that much.

    on coverage it’s a zero sum game. insurance company’s profits are the difference in the amount of premiums they get vs. the payments out for medical care. their profits ARE BASED ON MINIMISING PAYMENTS for medical care.

    on the administrative costs, i bet the main difference between the figures is salary – essentially the largest part of any company’s admin costs- private companies pay more, that’s just a fact.

    So I think there can be no doubt that single payer is the way to go. Having said that, it seems to me that it’s off the table not only because of the influence of insurance companies but also because it’s just too alien for the US public as a whole to get behind – I may be wrong about that – but I think that the stepping stone of a public option will give the public confidence in governmental health care to take the next step to single payer some years down the line. Insurance companies can’t be obliterated right now, they need to be squeezed to death.

  • Ivy_B

    I’m going in the hospital for a hip replacement operation tomorrow so I will get to test the system in an up close and personal way. Since I am on Medicare with a supplemental plan, the payment should be relatively painless – the way it should be for everyone.

  • shepherdwong

    Best wishes for a speedy recovery, Ivy_B.

    I wonder how many of us are working to hang on to our various failing “parts” until we can qualify for the government-run plan.

  • grape_crush

    Good luck, Ivy. Hope it all goes well.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    Hope ye come thru’ wi’ flyin’ colors…an’ lots o’ pain medicine – sacredh be able t’ be recommendin’ some good varieties, I be thinkin ;) !

    Wishin’ ye a speedy recovery!

    Arrgh!

  • deconstructiva

    Best wishes, Ivy. Hopefully everything will be as painless as possible.

  • kjata30

    You must get off by being so cynical towards views that aren’t your own. Glad I’ve helped.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    You know I have an idea, let’s create a volunteer national health insurance plan open only to Democrats and those who volunteer to participate in the program. The plan will include a stellar single-payer public option. And more effective ways of providing health care and making participants healthy. Hey that’s one way to make the Democratic realignment permanent, let’s out live the loonies.

    We could include all of the industries that want to participate, I’m pretty sure the insurance companies and big pharma will stick with us because the blue states have the highest concentration of those already insured. If they walked they would really lose most of their business. We could set up an exchange that gives participants a choice between an exchange that uses market share to provide an affordable array of alternative plans that provide a basic set of benefits and we could offer one cooperative that’s based on one single-payer plan to test new ways of providing health care that can bring down costs and be competition to the private plans.

    Any citizen that wants to participate can volunteer to be included. We can figure out how much additional tax money will be needed to cover the cost of the program and divide it up in a progressive way between those of us who have volunteered to participate. We all know that the statistics show that the states represented by Republicans are most in need of the health reform because its where most of the uninsured live. So while the rest of us will be covered, the GOP sympathisers can take their chance with their beloved free markets. Let’s stop wasting our time arguing with real America and let reality bite them in the butt.

    Now, when these conservatives find themselves in need of some medical attention. We would be in our rights to turn our backs on them. Personally, I say we tell them to tell their story to Palin and the birthers. But I know that in reality we are more compassionate than that. So lets promise to let them into our system provided they are willing to pay a hefty penalty for being such pains during this process — call it a stupidity tax..

  • kjata30

    Paul:

    The poor being poor, I’m not sure how they would pay more than most people for services, seeing as how they don’t have the money to begin with.

    There are systems in place, as you have mentioned, that take advantage of people who are strapped for cash. I however don’t know enough about them to form any kind of opinion about it.

    “The particulars” here involves forcing the insurance industry to change its business model from “min-max” to “max-max”: get as high a premium from their customers as the market allows and provide as much actual coverage as possible, avoiding the currently huge problem of payment deferral. The gov’t doesn’t need to create a program to do this, they just need to create new regulatory policy.

  • jcapan

    Shep: Thanks for that Schultz piece. I’ve seen KT excuse away the epic-failings of her industry here by pointing to the Hearst era (or cable’s more egregious whoremongering, or simply not being a media critic). God they have a lot of excuses, don’t they? And despite the relative merits of her own work, until they are prepared to call b-s on their own, nothing’s changing. No debate or discussion can thrive if for every expression of truth there are myriad falsehoods.

    But as Schultz’ piece points out, there was a time in the not so distant past when the 4th estate functioned as a check on the gov’t-corp alliance. Now, we’re left with the fingers of one hand when counting up the voices siding w/ the people.

    These interests are so entrenched, our system is set up to prevent any fundamental change (a la CA), the rot is so utterly pervasive, short of people taking to the streets by the millions….

    Joe’s last paragraph gets close to the reality, but of course the false equivalence line clouds the issue. Deep down he grasps the problem and the solution, he sees who the enemies are, but he can’t quite bring himself to name them clearly.

    He wrote a book about Woody Guthrie once, a man who had no such reluctance to see and name reality for what it is:

    “I have decided long ago that my songs and ballads would not get the hugs and kisses of the capitalistic ‘experts.’”

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    Ivy I wish the best of luck and hope everything goes well.

  • kjata30

    homerhk:

    Thank you for considering my comment and replying with an intelligent rebuttal. It seems like a lot of commenters here just like to troll about.

    I agree with you that the gov’t does provide useful public services, such as police and fire-fighters. And I haven’t really thought of it that way, but yes, the postal service is good for what it does.

    My only gripes with creating a single-payer option is that it is likely that choice will be very limited within the public program and that honestly, creating a new gov’t program is unneccessary. Why not just tap into the existing structure of the insurance industry? Rather than shinking the size of the private industry, why not just regulate the companies that are all ready in place?

    By regulating companies into providing either “basic” or “cadillac” coverages, the result ends up being the same as if a single-payer option is introduced — except without another large gov’t program. “Basic” providers would work at non-profit levels and receive their profit from the gov’t and “cadillac” providers would conduct business as usual. This seems reasonable in lieu of a gov’t plan.

    Another talking point that single-payer proponents seem to ignore: we have all been crying out against payment deferral on the part of insurance companies, but would single-payer really help? As you have said, countries with single-payer tend to have private insurance companies that offer “cadillac” coverage, and operated using the same “min-max” business model our private insurers do: charge the most you can get with premiums, cover as little as possible. Along with the likely rationing of care given through the gov’t options, how is single-payer really going to fix that problem?

    Taxes will certainly go up. Health care is health care, and someone has to pay for it in some way. If we move to public health insurance, the cost we pay now in premiums and copays will just get transfered to taxes. The juice the insurance companies will just be transfered to pay wages of gov’t employees and to maintain the administrative bureaucracy. You’re probably right about salaries, but the gov’t has a nice way of eating through its peoples’ cash.

    Sorry to rant, this post got really long, really fast.

  • Ivy_B

    Thanks all for your good wishes! Am taking my laptop to my daughter’s where I’m going to recover for a couple of weeks. Hope to be back in the swamp next week. Keep the critters under control until I get back.

  • Art Pepper

    AP: After weeks of secretive talks, a bipartisan group in the Senate edged closer Monday to a health care compromise that omits a requirement for businesses to offer coverage to their workers and lacks a government insurance option.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090727/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_overhaul

    So all of you people with guaranteed employment, a really good private plan, no preexisting conditions, and no plans to retire, can relax: The rest of us won’t get any of your precious health care dollars.

  • Art Pepper

    Also: Best wishes, Ivy! Hope the procedure goes well.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    Exact’ as I be predictin’…sad t’ say.

    An’ I won’t be holdin’ me breath waitin’ fer our “news” media t’ be pointin’ out wha’ a screw job we be gettin’ fr’m th’ proposed “reform’, ‘r wha’ a fine blow j*b our “representatives” be offerin’ their corporate-health johns!

    Tainted syphilitic whores, th’ whole lot o’ em – MSM, Congress, an’ th’ President too, if ‘e be going ‘long wi’ this!

    YARR!

  • kjata30

    I’m glad talk is shifting away from a gov’t option Its just a waste of tax-payer money to create one when they can achieve the same goes without it.

  • kjata30

    I’m glad talk is shifting away from a gov’t option. Its just a waste of tax-payer money to create one when they can achieve the same goes without it.

  • kjata30

    Sorry for the double post.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    I’d be writin’ an’ callin’ Barack, Maria, Patty an’ Rick AG’IN, bu’ it be obvious t’ me now tha’ none o’ ‘em be interested in health care reform.

    Wha’ they be interested in be passin’ somethin’ CALLED health care reform, assumin’ (ri’ly, I be fearin’) tha’ will be sufficient fer most Americans, whilst actual’ preservin’ th’ interests o’ corporate health t’ which they be beholdin’. Oh, an’ bein’ able t’ SAY they were passin’ health care reform when election time rolls ’round so’s they can be remainin’ a’ th’ teat wha’ feeds ‘em.

    Remember this day, me hearties, an’ remember it were th’ DEMOCRATIC Congress, an’ th’ DEMOCRATIC President, wi a giant assist fr’m corporate “journalsim” standin’ by wi’ their thumbs up their a$$e$ wha’ sold us!!!

    Blast ‘em all t’ ‘ell – I be spittin’ mad wi’ impotent rage a’ this blatant evidence tha’ our democracy been turned into a corporatocracy fer th’ benefit o’ th’ moneyed few!

    BLOODY BLACKGUARDS an’ SCOUNDRELS ALL!!!

    YARR!

  • jcapan

    Bruce Dixon:

    “The health care debate inside and outside the matrix

    Like just about everything else, your take on the national health care debate depends on whether you’re inside or outside the matrix.

    Within the bubble of fake reality blown by corporate media and bipartisan political establishment, the health care news is that the Obama Plan is at last making its way through Congress. It’s being fought by greedy private insurance companies, by chambers of commerce, by Republican and some Democratic lawmakers.

    Under the Obama plan, we’re told, employers will have to insure their employees or pay into a fund that does it for them. Individuals will be required under penalty of law to buy private insurance policies and for those that can’t afford it or prefer not to use a private insurer there will be something called a “public option.” This “public option, the story goes, is bitterly fought by the bad guys because it will make private insurers accountable by competing with them, forcing them to lower their costs. Both the president’s backers and opponents agree that the whole thing will be fantastically expensive, and the president proposes to fund it with cuts in existing programs like Medicaid which pay for the care of the poorest Americans and a tax on those making more than $300,000, later raised to $1 million a year.

    The “public option” has that magic word “public” in it, and that’s reassuring to progressives and to most of the American people. Taxing the rich is a popular idea too. So if you rely on corporate media, the administration, or some of the so-called progressive blogs to identify the players and keep the score, it seems a pretty clear case of President Obama on the side of the angels, battling the greedy insurance companies, Republicans and blue dog Democrats to bring us universal, affordable health care.

    That whole picture has about as much reality as the ones the same corporate media and most of the same politicians drew for us about Iraq, 9-11, weapons of mass destruction and some people over there who wanted us to free them. Iraq and the White House were and remain actual places, and there really is a problem called health care. But the places, problems and solutions are very different from the bubble of fake reality blown around them.

    What sustains this fake reality is the diligent suppression from public space of any viewpoints, observations or proposals to Obama’s left. As long as the illusion that nobody has a better idea, that the only choice we have is Obama’s way or the Republicans’ way can be maintained, the crooked game can go on.

    But bubbles are delicate things. Keeping this one intact requires so many vital topics to be avoided, so many inquiring eyes to be averted, so many fruitful conversations to be squelched that it’s hard to see how the president, the bipartisan establishment and the corporate media can pull it all off.”

    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/07/27-9

  • bobcn1

    Art Pepper,
    Thanks for the link. But wow — you’ve just ruined my day. The article makes it clear that the plan of the gopers (and Bachus and Conrad) is to throw an early Christmas party for the health care industry. Some interesting points in the article:

    ‘Individuals would have a mandate to buy affordable insurance, but companies would not have a requirement to offer it. ‘
    –WTF?

    ‘…congressional aides in both parties as well as lobbyists said a proposal limiting Flexible Savings Accounts to $2,000 annually is also a strong possibility. FSAs permit the use of pre-tax income to pay for items such as health care and child care.’
    – That will satisfy the people that were worried that the rich were going to have to give back some of their W tax gains. This proposal hits the lower and middle class hard.

    ‘The effort received a boost during the day from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, normally a close ally of Republicans. In a letter to committee leaders, the business group called for the panel to “act promptly, preferably before” the Senate’s scheduled vacation at the end of next week.’
    – So the C of C agrees with Obama that going slow is a tactical mistake.

    For those who still harbored any doubts — Bachus and Conrad are, in fact, weasels. They need to be stopped.

  • 53_3

    Good luck to you, Ivy_B.

    I’ve got a friend who injured a knee and while at the therapy clinic, we saw that hip replacement recipients did pretty well and breezed through it much more easily than those that had repairs to ligaments, etc.

    I hope you have as smooth a ride!

  • jcapan

    Chris Hedges on the pervasive effects of corporatism in our lives:

    “Corporate employees, like everyone else, are gripped by personal dilemmas, anxieties and troubles. They are not permitted, however, to ask whether the problem is the corporate structure and the corporate state. If they are not happy there is, they are told, something wrong with them. Real debate, real clashes of opinion, are, in the happy world of corporatism, forbidden. They are considered rude. The corporations enforce a relentless optimism that curtails honest appraisal of reality and preserves hierarchical forms of organization under the guise of “participation.” Corporate culture provides, as Christopher Lasch pointed out, a society dominated by corporate elites with an anti-elitist ideology….

    This ideology condemns all social critics, iconoclasts, dissidents and individualists, for failing to seek fulfillment in the collective chant of the corporate herd. It strangles creativity and moral autonomy. It is about being molded and shaped into a compliant and repressed collective. It is not, at its core, about happiness. It is about conformity, a conformity that all totalitarian and authoritarian structures seek to impose on the crowd. Its unrealistic promise of happiness, in fact, probably produces more internal anxiety and feelings of inadequacy than genuine happiness. The nagging undercurrents of alienation, the constant pressure to exhibit a false enthusiasm and buoyancy, the loneliness of a work life in which one must always be about upbeat presentation, the awful feeling that being positive may not in fact work if one is laid off, are buried and suppressed.

    There are no gross injustices, no abuses to question, no economic systems to challenge in the land of happy thoughts. In the land of happy thoughts we are to blame if things go wrong. The corporate state, we are assured, is beneficent and good. It will make us happy and comfortable and prosperous even as it funnels billions of taxpayer dollars into its bank accounts. Mao and Stalin used the same language of harmony and strength through the collective, the same love of spectacles and slogans, the same coercive power of groups and state propaganda, to enslave and impoverish millions of their citizens. And, if we do not free ourselves from the grip of this ideology and the corporate vampires who disseminate it, this is what will happen to us.”

    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090726_happiness_consultants_wont_stop_a_depression/

  • bobcn1

    kjata30 wrote ‘The poor being poor, I’m not sure how they would pay more than most people for services, seeing as how they don’t have the money to begin with.’.

    You seem to have lived a very sheltered life. Try going into a slum and check the grocery prices. You’ll probably choose not to shop there — but since you probably have a car and live in a nicer area, you can easily make that choice (unlike the poor — who tend to travel by bus).

    Paul Dirks mentioned Payday Loans and Rent-to-Own furniture businesses. Since you appear to be unaware of either, I suggest that you try using ‘the Google’ to educate yourself about these parasites pray on the poor. You might learn something about how the Other America lives.

    Regarding health care, it’s well known that without employer provided health care (which low income workers seldom receive), health insurance becomes very expensive and becomes less reliable. For a good description of what happens to people living on the margins, I suggest you read Karen Tumulty’s article about her own brother: link

  • cfukara

    Best Wishes, Ivy_B.
    In a dog-eat-dog world (in which millions of Iraqis may be wantonly killed or dislocated and their country destroyed – for their crude oil), one does not feel for the other guy.
    Shouldn’t.
    But, indulge us for a moment, Ivy_B: Consider an alternate universe where you have no Medicare with a supplemental plan …. A world in which the government keeps off anything that can possibly make a buck for someone – and neglects the plight of its poor.

    Oh, yeah! The Republicans and Blue Mutts would jump for joy!

  • carotexas1

    Now we know why the Senate Finance has been afraid to come out and say what they are working on.

    SGW posted this yesterday on twitter
    http://www.hartfordbusiness.com/news9668.html

    One state knows how to pass what is right.

  • jcapan

    And speaking of morassy insanity, to go along with el presidente’s boost in troops in Afghan, we have more mercenaries to go with ‘em! War profiteering, it’s a bipartisan gravy train. And god knows, the trillions spent on far-away countries to advance corp agendas has no relation to our gov’t's inability to provide for their own people (also, surprise, to protect corp agendas)!

    Didn’t the Gettsyburg address go something like “of the corp’s, by the corp’s, for the corp’s”? I don’t know, I’m not clear on my history. But wasn’t Abe a Goldmanite?

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090726/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_afghanistan_security_contract

  • cfukara

    Somehow Republicans and Blue Mutts are not loudly calling for the government to scrape socialist programs like MEDICARE …
    Some have called FEEBLY for the government to close down its involvement in programs such as the food stamps, farm subsidies, export assistance, SBA, …
    How about the government’s involvement in uncompetitive defense contracting – with billions of tax-payers’ money wasted? Dick Cheney is not complaining.

    We love to parade our duplicity, dont we?

  • maurice2u

    I in no way intended to imply that “nothing” should be for profit. The point I intended to make is that currently “everything” is for profit. Even those things which we once held as untouchable. I listed examples such as news, churches, children, and health care.

    By all means the auto industry, video games, televisions, movies, and the majority of junk that fills our lives should be predicated on a profit driven system. What seems to have happened however is that we cannot get our priorities straight and have gone the easy route of letting greed be the driving force behind all aspects of our society.

    It seems almost counter culture too because we don’t teach our children to be selfish as a primary value, but as adults we harness that attitude as the end all be all (so it seems). There should be some clear distinctions, and I don’t really see any at the moment.

  • maurice2u

    I’d also note that I never “blamed it on the corporations”. In fact, I don’t like those over arching titles we put on things. For purposes of articulating root causes of our condition, there is no such thing as “the government”, “cooperations”, “big business”, etc.

    I say this because they are all just groupings of people. People who were born, went to school, have kids, and will die just like anyone else. Some of us here would be considered “the government”, or “big business” depending on the context of the conversation and that’s really not helpful.

    It is a way of shirking responsibility and apply gross generalizations that are no more accurate or appropriate than sighting a particular races and lumping in a behavior as if it belongs to all of them automatically. It is something we’ve grown accustomed to doing, but under any scientific or philosophical scrutiny, the labels hold little to no merit in both cases.

    If we must use a large looming generalization then the problem is “us”. Obviously some of us are more prone to one view or another and individually we are as complex as anything in the universe. Yet, as a culture (at least the American culture) I still contend we have succumb to those characteristics I put in my first comment.

  • cfukara

    Gov Rell (R) in opposing the universal health care measure passed:” .. it does not reflect the costs for those with insurance whose (small business) employers would be encouraged to drop their plans, .. ”

    What has been encouraging them hitherto?

    Nationally, half of all the uninsured in the U.S. are employed by a business with fewer than 100 workers ..”

    Ah. It was said that these Republicans enjoy being ignorant.

  • maurice2u

    “The trick is funneling that greed to benefit the people.”

    I think this is a commonly used concept, but is fundamental flawed. What it basically proposes is to somehow use a fundamentally evil (yeah, hate that word too) motive, and expect to manipulate it into getting a positive result out. On top of that, in order to get the ‘best’ out of it, we are to continue to promote the otherwise detestable behavior.

    This is a fundamentally self-defeating formula. By continuing to promote something that is already insatiable by it’s nature, you ensure that any positive gained will be subsequently eclipsed either within the same context or by collateral behavior. It isn’t like we’re promoting greed in a vacuum in a lab, we are embedding it in our culture, our behavior, and in the behavior of our children. It can’t be cut off and on like a light switch and kept in a cage.

    This is why no matter what regulations or reforms we make, people find or create new means to exploit a system. Take the gun from a killer and he’ll use a toothbrush. Take the access to a bank from a thief and he’ll steal cigarettes. If you don’t change the core motives/behavior of people you end up with the same result. It may be on a different order of magnitude in quantity or ‘quality’, but ultimately there’s no improvement.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    bobcn –

    How be ye suggestin’ we be stoppin’ ‘em?

    They no’ be interested in anythin’ we be sayin’ t’ ‘em.

    We be powerless ag’inst corporate health interests.

    Th’ VAST majority o’ “journalists” refuse t’ do their jobs, so th’ VAST majority o’ Americans be havin’ no idea they be gettin’ screwed o’er, an’ o’er, an’ o’er, an’…

    We don’t be havin’ any influence a’tall – wha’ else be ye suggestin’?

    ‘Cause if ye be havin’ a plan tha’ be doin’ it, be countin’ me in…if thar no be one (which I be suspectin’ be th’ truth), I be ready t’ pack it in an’ tune out o’ th’ whole rottin’ cesspool.

    Someone mentioned a few days ago’ ’bout votin’ everyone out restorin’ th’ previous corrupt balance, bu’ now I be thinkin, wha’ be th’ difference? If this be wha’ we be gettin’ wi’ Democrats, thar be none!

    YARR!

  • James, Los Angeles

    Here’s wishing you a speedy and painless recovery Ivy. Take care.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    Okay maybe I’m not getting something here but this sounds an awful like semantics. It’s like the difference between gay marriage and civil unions. The only reason it doesn’t get passed is because its called marriage. If they just called it civil unions and the term referred to every single legal status that was afforded marriage it would be the same exact thing but just called something different and it would pass overwhelmingly in this country. But that’s not acceptable to purists and I understand why. I don’t fault them for holding out for principles in this instance because when it comes to things like American identity and civil rights principles matter as much as specific gains and America ought to have to get used to equality for all.

    But the health reform debate is different and it doesn’t seem smart to choose principle over gains in this instance. You still have the public option, it was always described as a public exchange of insurance that would be negotiated using the market share of government to provide an insurance option that was affordable and could compete with the private plans. If the coop provides that exchange, what do we care what they call it? If you get Medicare, everybody’s favorite single-payer system, you get to pick coverage from an exchange that has negotiated packages that are affordable from a government perspective but are offered through various private plans for rx drugs, supplemental coverage etc., what’s the difference. I think the coop is starting to look a lot like civil unions by giving some GOP members, like Snow and Collins a way to back out of the whole McConnell has dug for them and progressives ought to get a grip and hold their fire until they get the details and remember that a rose by any other name is till as sweet and more importantly is still a rose!.

  • cfukara

    homerhk: ” .. OH No! I have to wait three weeks for my non-critical operation with government healthcare but my private insurer will do it tomorrow …”

    Let us not forget that there are millions in the world who don’t mind waiting for weeks for that non-critical operations. There are millions in USA who don’t mind. [Republicans and Blue Mutts not included.]

    homerhk: ” .. Insurance companies can’t be obliterated right now, they need to be squeezed to death. ..”
    Now do you understand why the insurance companies and their PACS are viciously fighting this things like cornered beasts in the presence of their Grim Ripper?

    ” .. I just don’t feel a gov’t option is the best choice. ..”
    So why don’t we let the people have the gov’t option available to them? What are you afraid of?
    The people will probably not go for it even if it is on the table, right?

    “feel” is a poor metric by which to consider the health of millions of (angry) Americans – half of whom also live with chronic pain.
    Note: Often the ‘best’ option is not available to us ( in a world of limited resources). That reality doesn’t make us give up the will to live – if the next best option can do. Look at it this way: AS, the best gal, is not available so the rest of us settle for the next best, right?

  • bobcn1
  • carotexas1

    Dee I would not have any objection if it is Medicare but called a Cooperative. A national plan that you sign up with nationally. My fear is it will be done on a State level and lose the bargaining power and living in the state I do, I would rather Govenors not have control.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    That’s my hope too because I know I live in a state that will do right by me, but I fear for my fellow citizens in less enlightened states. I just hope that we focus more on content than packaging. They can call it Uncle Bob’s health consortium for all I care as long as I get an option to purchase affordable quality insurance what I can count on when I get sick.

  • shepherdwong

    “Somehow Republicans and Blue Mutts are not loudly calling for the government to scrape socialist programs like MEDICARE …”

    Or the VA. Which is another reason, beside doing the bidding of our corporate masters for the sake of their fat bottom lines, why the last thing in the world they want to see in another government success story help so many.

  • kjata30

    Because we can’t do everything. We’re going to have to choose one method of reform, and the gov’t option isn’t the best available.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    Oh Lord, I am watching Maria Barteloma on CNBC doing a health care reform and Bill Frist is still a lying vampire, Michael Milken, should be returned to prison because he learned nothing from his incarceration. He wants to tell us that its all the fault of fat people, yet he had prostate cancer.. They are once again trying to tell America that you don’t need to change its the some other people who you don’t like that are the problem.

    And the only person in the room who has actually made health care better and cheaper, they ignore and listen to lies from Bill Frist who is a fool with a degree — Terry Schiavo need I say more?

  • kjata30

    My only point was that by having very little money, there is very little money for businesses to extract out of them. I’m pretty sure I emphasized that I didn’t know enough to form an opinion.

  • carotexas1

    Dee you are brave to watch MB.
    I saw her on Morning Joe this morning and knew it was going to be awful.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    Bu’ Dee, it BE th’ content I be havin’ th’ problem wi’, no’ just th’ packagin’. Th’ CONTENT turns th’ reform into yet another give-away t’ corporate health. Th’ public option be so restricted, hardly anyone will be able t’ be takin’ advantage!

    YARR!

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    Yeah, brave because Maria is one more pretty woman getting by on her looks. First, she did nothing to warn us of the coming financial meltdown, but once she saw the attention that Rick the trader got after returning from hob knobbing with the financial elite in Davos, she tried to jump on the populace bandwagon. She put this thing together and didn’t challenge a single one of Frist’s lies and didn’t include a Democratic proponent of the bill in Congress to defend the bill against false charges by all of the Republican lobbyist. Okay Jennifer is a Democrat, but her defense of Democratic measures brings me back to the pretty woman syndrome.

  • yutsano

    I hope every single citizen in Montana gets that piece of garbage their Senator is responsible for and waves it in his face when he does his constituent visits while pinning his ears back for selling them out. Seriously, Baucus can get all the campaign contributions on the planet but if he can’t turn that cash into votes (and they already called him out once for producing a watered-down propsal once) then what is he doing? Trying to retire in style?

  • davelatchaw

    But Pirate Wench, paying twice as much and getting less is the only way we can maintain our precious freedoms!

  • cfukara

    kjata30 ” .. We’re going to have to choose one method of reform, and the gov’t option isn’t the best available. .. ”

    “Available”? True, not yet.

    So many talk of “best option”, yet none seems to have a clue what that is. Is it the option which is desired by, say, a simple majority of Americans of the “We, the people” legacy?

    Over 70% of Americans want the gov’t option.

  • cfukara

    The difficulty POTUS seems to be encountering in selling health care reform to Americans is eerily familiar.

    Case I:
    Here is a guy, a millionaire, with a very good health care policy trying altruistically to put in place a health care program for the millions of Americans at risk who are without it and can’t afford it – and being demonized for it!
    Why is something so right THAT difficult to sell to Americans (who – by a reported 70% preference – seem to support a gov’t option overwhelmingly?)

    Case II:
    A few years ago Americans were initially overwhelmingly opposed to the invasion of Iraq on contrived excuses. Later, most Americans became around to be in support of it.
    those who were still op[posed to it, had a difficult time convincing the rest of Americans to oppose the imperial adventurism - which resulted in horrific crimes against humanity.
    Among those opposed to the sound of the war drums was a junior senator named Barack H. Obama.
    Why was something so right ( a rejection of wanton, murderous adventurism) THAT difficult to sell to moral and compassionate Americans? And what techniques were employed to slowly and steadily overcome the peoples' resistance to that war?
    --
    [Hint: Note the psyche warfare waged by special/oil interests, the MSM and their owners, the ruling elites - in drumming up support for the Iraq war of aggression.]

    [Note: By end of August, the 70% of Americans who now love the gov't option in health care reform will probably be hating it with a passion. Sit back and observe the ruling elites' corporate/special interests/MSM propaganda steamroller in action.]

  • androidboy420

    I can’t believe that this subject keeps coming around to money…Let me quote Eisenhower as best I can. “A modern bomber costs as much as 150 brick schoolhouses”.
    Something like that.
    That was decades ago. It’s time to start realizing the peace divided. How much health care could be bought for the price of an aircraft carrier and it’s escorts? I’m sure the American People will do just fine with one less task force.
    I guess my point is that we have an a$$load of money. We need to figure out how to best spend it. We aren’t going to catch Bin Ladin with a nuclear submarine. It’s going to be some kid with a gun.
    So money shouldn’t even be part of this argument.

  • garyb50

    Let’s hope the super-reasonable kjata30 is wrong when she so sweetly said, “Medicare, effective? You’re out of your mind.”

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