Rahm Emanuel: Ready to Deal on a Public Plan

Over and over again, President Obama has expressed his commitment to the establishment of a government-run “public plan” as part of health reform, saying it is needed to keep the pressure on private insurance companies. Just as often, we have pointed out here that this kind of general statement can mean a lot of different things to different people. Today, we hear yet more evidence that the White House is quite flexible in how it views the whole idea of a public plan.

White House Chief of Staff tells the Wall Street Journal that it is far more important to create competition among private health insurers than to it is to establish a robust government-run option. And he sounds supportive of an idea being talked about by Republicans like Olympia Snowe, in which a public plan would be established only if private companies failed to step up to the plate. A similar “trigger” was included in the 2003 Medicare prescription drug plan, and has never been used:

Mr. Emanuel said one of several ways to meet President Barack Obama’s goals is a mechanism under which a public plan is introduced only if the marketplace fails to provide sufficient competition on its own. He noted that congressional Republicans crafted a similar trigger mechanism when they created a prescription-drug benefit for Medicare in 2003. In that case, private competition has been judged sufficient and the public option has never gone into effect.

Mr. Obama has pushed hard for a vigorous public option. But he has also said he won’t draw a “line in the sand” over this point.

UPDATE: This is what is known as a “clarification”:

Statement from the President on Health Care Reform

“I am pleased by the progress we’re making on health care reform and still believe, as I’ve said before, that one of the best ways to bring down costs, provide more choices, and assure quality is a public option that will force the insurance companies to compete and keep them honest. I look forward to a final product that achieves these very important goals.”

UPDATE2: Ezra Klein has an interesting point with respect to the precedent that Emanuel cites:

Putting aside the success, or lack thereof, of Medicare Part D, this is a bit of a weird comment. In 2003, Republicans controlled the White House, the House of Representatives, and the U.S. Senate. As such, when they tried to pass their legislation adding a private prescription drug benefit to Medicare, they allowed a small concession to Democrats: a weak public plan that would be activated if certain conditions weren’t met by private industry.

What Emanuel is saying here, however, is that in 2009, when Democrats control the White House, the House of Representatives, and the U.S. Senate — and have larger margins than Republicans ever did in the latter two — that they are interested in settling on the same policy compromise: a weak public plan that would be activated if certain conditions aren’t met by private industry. That’s a bit weird. Weren’t elections supposed to have consequences?

Related Topics: Health Care, White House
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  • trifecta55

    Why don’t we just quit and just let the insurance companies have an arm and a leg. Perhaps if we commit to spending 20 hours a week of our “free time” each week fanning insurance CEO’s and feeding them peeled grapes, they may allow the Senators they bought to allow us to get treated for a debilitating illness for a reasonable price.

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  • trifecta55

    They are spending $1.4 million a day (the health care lobby) to defeat any change. Members of Max Baucus’ staff have been hired on. Dick Armey and Dick Gephardt are lobbying for the same pharma firm.
    .
    This is just hopeless. I am utterly cynical about the fact that 72% of Americans want a public option but it doesn’t matter. Our politicians are bought and paid for by corporate interests.

  • kathy

    I do. not. understand why they are giving the authority to Republicns on this, even “reasonable” ones like Snowe. Losing never looked so good. I swear Congressional Republicans have more power now than when Bush was in office. Grumble.

  • kathy

    Do you suppose they’re waiting for the public to demand the public option?

  • Matt

    I’d say this is a compromise that wins at least 60 votes in the Senate. The president’s base will be ticked like heck, but that hardly matters.

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • plukasiak

    They are spending $1.4 million a day (the health care lobby) to defeat any change. Members of Max Baucus’ staff have been hired on. Dick Armey and Dick Gephardt are lobbying for the same pharma firm.
    .
    This is just hopeless. I am utterly cynical about the fact that 72% of Americans want a public option but it doesn’t matter.

    _
    you want to know why its hopeless? Its because of reporters like Karen who rely on ‘push polls” to write stuff like “this kind of general statement can mean a lot of different things to different people”—and who refuse to include the facts about who is being paid off by the insurance companies when writing about health care reform.
    _
    So while you may understand that there is massive public support for truly effective health care reform, Karen is more concerned with muddying the issues involved by parroting Frank Luntz approved talking points in the interest of “unbiased”, “impartial” coverage. Truly impartial coverage makes it clear that one side has public support, and the other side is supported only by slush funds collected out of the profits of the insurance industry.

  • Karen Tumulty

    yes, pluk, it’s all my fault.

  • plukasiak

    which part of “reporters like Karen” don’t you understand? ;)

  • ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®©

    .
    At least you admitted it, KT. (No I’m not serious, I’m being a wise-@ss.)
    .
    However, I will take this opportunity to link to Bob S.:
    .

    Total health expenditures per capita, 2003

    United States $5711
    Australia $2886
    Austria $2958
    Belgium $3044
    Canada $2998
    Denmark $2743
    Finland $2104
    France $3048
    Germany $2983
    Ireland $2466
    Italy $2314
    Japan $2249
    Netherlands $2909
    Norway $3769
    Sweden $2745
    United Kingdom $2317
    .
    Those are astonishing data. Over the past fifteen years, they’ve almost never been discussed.
    ~

  • gysgt213

    The below numbers are from 2003, 2004 & 2005. These numbers are rarely if ever discussed in tandem and in a coherent understandable way by our news media in order to give people a full picture of some basic facts. We are already over paying for less health care and its already rationed and that is without a public option for all Americans.
    .
    Per capita in 2003 healthcare cost for the below nations were:
    .
    United States $5711
    Australia $2886
    Austria $2958
    Belgium $3044
    Canada $2998
    Denmark $2743
    Finland $2104
    France $3048
    Germany $2983
    Ireland $2466
    Italy $2314
    Japan $2249
    Netherlands $2909
    Norway $3769
    Sweden $2745
    United Kingdom $2317
    .
    Healthcare CE0 compensation 2005 and over a five year period:
    .
    United Health Group
    CEO: William W McGuire
    2005: 124.8 mil
    5-year: 342 mil
    .
    Forest Labs
    CEO: Howard Solomon
    2005: 92.1 mil
    5-year: 295 mil
    .
    Caremark Rx
    CEO: Edwin M Crawford
    2005: 77.9 mil
    5-year: 93.6 mil
    .
    Abbott Lab
    CEO: Miles White
    2005: 26.2 mil
    5-year: 25.8 mil
    .
    Aetna
    CEO: John Rowe
    2005: 22.1 mil
    5-year:57.8 mil
    .
    Amgen
    CEO: Kevin Sharer
    2005:5.7 mil
    5-year:59.5 mil
    .
    Bectin-Dickinson
    CEO: Edwin Ludwig
    2005: 10 mil
    5-year:18 mil
    .
    Boston Scientific
    CEO:
    2005:38.1 mil
    5-year:45 mil
    .
    Cardinal Health
    CEO: James Tobin
    2005:1.1 mil
    5-year:33.5 mil
    .
    Cigna
    CEO: H. Edward Hanway
    2005:13.3 mil
    5-year:62.8 mil
    .
    Genzyme
    CEO: Henri Termeer
    2005: 19 mil
    5-year:60.7 mil
    .
    Humana
    CEO: Michael McAllister
    2005:2.3 mil
    5-year:12.9 mil
    .
    Johnson & Johnson
    CEO: William Weldon
    2005:6.1 mil
    5-year:19.7 mil
    .
    Laboratory Corp America
    CEO: Thomas MacMahon
    2005:7.9 mil
    5-year:41.8 mil
    .
    Eli Lilly
    CEO: Sidney Taurel
    2005:7.2 mil
    5-year:37.9 mil
    .
    McKesson
    CEO: John Hammergen
    2005: 13.4 mil
    5-year:31.2 mil
    .
    Medtronic
    CEO: Arthur Collins
    2005: 4.7 mil
    5-year:39 mil
    .
    Merck Raymond Gilmartin
    CEO:
    2005: 37.8 mil
    5-year:49.6 mil
    .
    PacifiCare Health
    CEO: Howard Phanstiel
    2005: 3.4 mil
    5-year: 8.5 mil
    .
    Pfizer
    CEO: Henry McKinnell
    2005: 14 mil
    5-year: 74 mil
    .
    Well Choice
    CEO: Michael Stocker
    2005: 3.2 mil
    5-year: 10.7 mil
    .
    WellPoint
    CEO: Larry Glasscock
    2005: 23 mil
    5-year: 46.8 mil
    .
    Wyeth
    CEO: Robert Essner
    2005:6.5 mil
    5-year: 28.9 mil
    .
    Imagine adding vice presidents, Board of Directors, stock holders and the other 200-300 other companies all cashing in on your health to that total at the bottom.
    .
    If you are using United Healthcare, well congrats, your insurance company paid their CEO one man $324,000,000 over a recent five year period.
    .
    BTW: 10% of 14.9 billion is 1.4 billion. If basic insurance costs $8,000/year for a family then taking 10% from just these CEO salaries would insure 35,000 Americans a year for five years. That is a lot of people that can be helped just by 23 men. Looking at the companies as a whole that profit from health care, we can probably pay for every uninsured person in this country for decades to come.
    .
    http://www.forbes.com/static/execpay2005/rank.html
    .
    And for those who want to make the ration argument. Yglesias makes a good point:
    .
    It’s also really important to just make a simple conceptual point. Right now health care is rationed by your ability to pay.
    .
    http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/07/the-truth-about-foreign-health-care.php

  • Paul-no not that one

    “Exactly what circumstances would trigger the option would have to be worked out.”
    .
    Uh huh. I’m sure it will be a trigger everyone from the insurance industry to Max Baucus can get behind.
    .
    At least Senator Schumer is *sounding* like he’s serious about a public option.

  • 53_3

    I give up!
    .
    We are going to twaddle in trash for a while I guess before someone upstairs finally realizes that we cannot continue with the same old sheist!
    .
    I hiketh my leg and fffffffffffffffaaaaaaaarrrrrrrt!

  • FlownOver

    Somehow I didn’t expect Emanuel to be the one to wave the white flag of “victory.”

  • bitterpill8

    There are two items in this comments section that should get widespread coverage. The per capita costs of the “socialist” medicines delivered in Europe and Australasia and the pay of CEOs. I have not seen articles in depth on both issues; just the usual superficial gasbaggery from Wolf Blitzer, Lou Dobbs, etc. The WSJ leads the charge on the Bogus Arguments front.

    We have never had an honest debate on health care costs because our politicians don’t want one. For every Schumer there are three Carpers. The Delaware Senator was interviewed by David Shuster yesterday. And while he was dishing out his prepared misleading “analysis: the screen showed him getting $200,000+ from Health Care and $100,000 plus from Pharmacare. When asked about it did he cringe? not at all, he continued with his bafflegab.

    So: KT, can we ask TIME to do a couple of Specials: Who has given what to Congress (say the committee members with oversight over health) and how much CEO’s of Health Care/Pharma receive over the last 3 years..

    There is a lot of that in the comments section here. Will TIME highlight that after checking?

    The Post has some info on the “Pals” and “Former Employees” who are now lobbyists. The system is corrupt.

  • carotexas1

    Mr. Emmanuel said ONE OF SEVERAL WAYS. I think that this is important here.
    .
    I am not sure that this line is Rahm’s quote or WSJ
    Mr. Obama has pushed hard for a vigorous public option. But he has also said he won’t draw a “line in the sand” over this point.

  • bitterpill8

    Then, perhaps KT can call Rahm Emmanuel and interview him about where he stands on this issue. This would not be the first time Rahm has been “misquoted”. Or is this a flagging operation? There are vested interest who are ready to blow smoke.

  • sevenoaks07

    Bitter: I agree that Mr Emmanuel needs to be asked for a clarification. Lots of people are blowing smoke; and the WSJ has a vested interest in the status quo.

  • mrtoads

    “yes, pluk, it’s all my fault.”

    Excellent, Karen – this is the important first step! Now, don’t feel too bad; we still love you, and we’ll be with you the whole way through the process of rehabilitation and recovery…

  • sevenoaks07

    Brian Beutler at TPM has a piece on Sen Baucus and his former staff members-turned lobbyists which goes back to yesterday’s article in the Post. He awaits a response from the Senator’s office. Undercurrent: lots of ego all round, with Baucus being Ego-in- Chief?

  • pintortwo

    Given the numbers from Gunny (8:28), the fact that we have the lowest rated and most expensive (compared to GDP) HC system in the industrialized world, the millions of uninsured/underinsured citizens, that retroactive denials of coverage are a significant part of insurance companies’ business plan… one wonders what exactly these “triggers” would be.

  • gysgt213

    Here is a link to Jonathan Cohn’s article in the Boston Globe concerning France and Netherlands systems. The below really stood out for me.
    .
    Last year, I had the opportunity to spend time researching two of these countries: France and the Netherlands. Neither country gets the attention that Canada and England do. That might be because English isn’t their language. Or it might be because they don’t fit the negative stereotypes of life in countries where government is more directly involved in medical care.
    .
    Over the course of a month, I spoke to just about everybody I could find who might know something about these healthcare systems: Elected officials, industry leaders, scholars – plus, of course, doctors and patients. And sure enough, I heard some complaints. Dutch doctors, for example, thought they had too much paperwork. French public health experts thought patients with chronic disease weren’t getting the kind of sustained, coordinated medical care that they needed.
    .
    But in the course of a few dozen lengthy interviews, not once did I encounter an interview subject who wanted to trade places with an American. And it was easy enough to see why. People in these countries were getting precisely what most Americans say they want: Timely, quality care. Physicians felt free to practice medicine the way they wanted; companies got to concentrate on their lines of business, rather than develop expertise in managing health benefits. But, in contrast with the US, everybody had insurance. The papers weren’t filled with stories of people going bankrupt or skipping medical care because they couldn’t afford to pay their bills. And they did all this while paying substantially less, overall, than we do.
    .
    http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/07/05/healthy_examples_plenty_of_countries_get_healthcare_right/?page=1
    .
    Here’s a link to the recently release Business Roundtable Health care study the results of which show that US workers and employers receive 23% LESS value from our health care system than the average 5 leading economic competitors-Canada, Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom and France (G-5) and 46% LESS value than the average emerging competitors Brazil, India and China (BIC group)
    .
    G-5 countries spend 63 cents for every dollar the US spends yet the US lags the G-5 by 10%. The three BIC countries spend 15% of what we do, yet the US workforce trails the BIC countries by 5%.
    .
    Per Capita the US spends $828 more per person than the G-5 and $1,654 more than the BIC countries.
    .
    http://www.businessroundtable.org/sites/default/files/Health%20Study%20Talking%20Points%20FINAL.pdf

  • deconstructiva

    A “line in the sand” indeed…keep exposing those bratty selfish kids who won’t share the sandbox, thanks KT. If we let insurance companies run fire departments the way they do our health care, we’d be toast, literally. Or military-industrial insiders like Blackwater / Xe/ whatever running our police, but I digress.

  • rose83

    Clarifications are always good, but I’m not at all surprised by Emanuel’s comments. This is entirely consistent with his history.
    .
    Single-payer may be politically unfeasible and it’s fine, although a little chicken and egg, for politicians and journalists to emphasize that. But they should also acknowledge that anything else is economically unfeasible in the long-term. People are getting older, health care costs are rising with scientific innovations, and the businesses of every other industrialized country will be far better able to handle those challenges.
    .
    It’s absurd to suggest that maintaining the essential character of a health care system that will inevitably cripple American businesses is “realistic” or “pragmatic”.

  • carotexas1

    Karen I cannot see Rahm ready to deal on public plan right now. They are still making deals with health industry.
    .
    I really think that this line is misquoted or WSJ
    .
    Mr. Obama has pushed hard for a vigorous public option. But he has also said he won’t draw a “line in the sand” over this point.
    .
    I hope this was his way of letting us know how bad this option is.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “Single-payer may be politically unfeasible and it’s fine, although a little chicken and egg, for politicians and journalists to emphasize that. But they should also acknowledge that anything else is economically unfeasible in the long-term.”
    .
    Rose makes a good point. I feel this issue is getting so muddled that the reasons for reform are going to be lost.

  • Karen Tumulty

    cartexas: the white house is not saying that rahm was misquoted. however, they did issue the statement that I added in the update. by the way, those two things–rahm’s interview and the president’s statement–are not mutually exclusive. once again, the phrase “public option” can be defined many ways. i have put in a call to rahm’s office and will let you know what i hear.

  • deconstructiva

    “…quality is a public option that will force the insurance companies to compete and keep them honest.” Were they ever honest? So this is cynicism. It sucks.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    KT –
    .
    I still be waitin’ fer th’ big story linkin’ members o’ congress, th’ money they be receivin’ fr’m corporate “health”, an’ th’ way they be approachin’ “health care reform”, along wi’ a clear explanation an’ comparison’ o’ th’ ramifications, t’ be appearin’ on th’ front page an’ boldly featured wi’in me dead tree edition o’ TIME…
    .
    When mi’ tha’ be comin’, lassie?
    .
    Or, be ye waitin’ fer th’ whole thing t’ be o’er an’ done wi’ in favor o’ corporate “health”, so’s ye can be writin’ yer hand-wringin’ aftermath story after it be safely not matterin’ no more?
    .
    YARR!

  • Karen Tumulty

    pirate: there have been many–dozens and dozens–of these stories, most recently in the washington post taking a look at all the former staffers who are lobbying for various health industry interests. that this is going on is not something that the media is keeping a secret.

  • Karen Tumulty
  • Paul-no not that one

    You know what I am unclear about-what exactly is meant by “lobbying”? $1,400,000 a day gets you what?
    .
    Persuasion? Arm twisting? Threats? Fact finding trips to exotic locations?

  • Karen Tumulty

    why is it that the same folks who tell me that TIME is dead, meaningless and irrelevant don’t seem to think a story really exists unless it is in the print version of the magazine? which of those things is true? (not aimed at you personally, pirate, but i’ve often gotten comments suggesting that reporting that is ONLY on the website doesn’t really count.)

  • pintortwo

    PNNTO- “$1,400,000 a day gets you what?”
    .
    It gets you a seat at the negotiating table when it’s really a matter of what is best for the American people.

  • Karen Tumulty

    P-NNTO: All of the above, but the most effective on the rank and file (as opposed to members of key committees) are the kinds of things that generate a lot of heat at home.

  • deconstructiva

    Not me. Online stories are the way to go. Otherwise I’d have a living room literally filled with every paper and mag around the world, just like Sarah-you-know-who. But does this mean we don’t have to subscribe to the kill-a-tree TIME version of which Michael begs us to subscribe?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    a story really exists unless it is in the print version of the magazine?
    .
    A story that’s printed can no longer be edited and corrections are a b1tch. I think there’s an air of ‘officialness’ that flows from that simple fact.

  • Paul-no not that one

    So the math is $4000.00 per lobbyist a day. I’d love to see an audit trail.
    .
    “the most effective on the rank and file (as opposed to members of key committees) are the kinds of things that generate a lot of heat at home.”
    .
    Like the infamous Harry and Louise ads? Despite the Luntz worded poll it seems pretty clear that the heat at home is for a public option.

  • Karen Tumulty

    PD: Don’t tell me that! I haven’t been in the mag for weeks, and yet, I’ve been writing my little heart out! Plus, writing for the web lets me hang out with you guys.

  • afguy

    Why not just change the headline to “Rahm Emmanuel: Ready to Deal”?
    .
    The remainder is just superfluous. I simply don’t believe that he has any real core principles.
    .
    In some ways, I could see him as a Republican just as easily as I can see him with his present label.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    KT — I don’t think we need more stories about the relationship between lobbyist money and politicians. What we need is consistency in treatment of these characters. What I’d like to see is every time the name Chuck Grassley or Max Baucus comes up it is followed by the Senator from Iowa or Montana who receives xx amount of dollars from the health insurance industry and continues to block a public option…You know the same way I heard for twenty years whenever the media mentioned the name Rev. Jesse Jackson I had to also hear about the Hime (sp?) town comment, or when I hear Bill Clinton I’m still reminded about Monica Lewinsky.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    KT,
    Don’t change a thing. What can be better than watching stories develop in real-time with direct interaction between the events and the audience.
    .
    I was just trying to explain the illusion that results from stories being ‘locked in’ by appearing in print.

  • sacredh

    KT: You’re doing a good job of keeping up with the healthcare issue. Your time (pun) and efforts are greatly appreciated. My sucking up has nothing to do with me sitting here shaking and chain smoking because we haven’t had a “1000 Words”. BTW, will you PLEASE try to get Rusty’s comment replaced on the main politics page?

  • ohiolib

    And tell me: who is going to decide if the insurance companies aren’t stepping up? The insurance companies? If congress decides, can we exclude all members who have taken more than $100 from an insurance company? This is looking like an all bark and no bite proposal.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I could see him as a Republican just as easily as I can see him with his present label
    .
    He does come from an environment of one-party rule.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IL05_109.gif
    .
    If you want to play at all in Chicago, you’re a Democrat.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    But then again the sixth district was the home of Henry Hyde….

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    KT –
    .
    It be more widespread dissemination an’ access. How many people be subscribin’ t’ dead tree TIME? How many people be commentin’ ‘ere on th’ blog?
    .
    I be thinkin’ th’ audience online be limited, when compared t’ those receivin’ th’ paper version.
    .
    An’ th’ REASON paper be dyin’ out be in significant part b’cause thar be precious little real, actual, relevant, reportin’ goin’ on. Truthful, clear, fulfillin’ th’ mission o’ a free press reportin! Instead o’ cloudy, mushy, wishy-washy, weasel-worded gossipy horse-race tripe.
    .
    If the kind o’ information posted ‘ere by gunny an’ other non-professional reporter types were all over th’ paper world (an’ th’ teevee world), more people would be havin’ it, an’ more people would be payin’ attention t’ how they’re bein’ sold out!
    .
    Bu’ I be knowin’ it be near impossible t’ be crossin’ th’ corporate interest line…I be b’lievin’ tha’ be th’ source o’ all th’ muckin’ ’bout except in a few brave cases – ye mostly included, KT – ye be goin’ ri’ up t’ th’ line … bu’ not o’er, IMPO.
    .
    ARRGH!

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    Yeah KT what Sacred said. The idea that, over the last month, something Rusty said could be viewed by aliens in outer space as representative of what commenters on this blog think is just personally devastating.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    An’ fer clarification, I be talkin’ ’bout paper sources in addition t’ th’ online sites, not instead o’ ‘em!
    .
    I be certain appreciatin’ th’ blogosphere – bu’ I also be b’lievin’ thar be a fair chunk o’ folks out thar who be intimidated by it, ‘r lackin’ access t’ it.
    .
    Arrgh!

  • Paul-no not that one

    “I be thinkin’ th’ audience online be limited, when compared t’ those receivin’ th’ paper version.”
    .
    Don’t be so quick PW-We’re Number 30! We’re Number 30!

    http://www.wikio.com/blogs/top/politics?start=20

  • Karen Tumulty

    i have confirmed that Rahm was quoted accurately–and inconveniently.

  • sacredh

    I swear by all that is Holy (AS), if you give us a “1000 Words” I’ll post at least 20 comments by myself. I’m begging now. If I had any class at all I’d be ashamed of myself. I don’t so I’m not.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Thanks for the follow ups KT.
    .
    Most charitable take-Trial Balloon.
    .
    Most likely take-Weakening White House support.

  • 53_3

    KT:
    .
    Keep the stories coming, even though to me they are very disappointing, they keep me informed.
    .
    However:
    .
    “…are the kinds of things that generate a lot of heat at home.”
    .
    I think you are right about generating a lot of heat, but the problem is, KT, none of them are listening! The problems I see is that we are while the “opposition” is implacably opposed to the public option*, and we have that clause in the budget that makes 51 votes the breakpoint on healthcare issues, congress, guided by suggestions from the white house, are still not going to come up with anything of consequence.
    .
    *A public option that can be refused by providers is even worse than the situation now – the poor would have to pay something, but would still only be able to use their insurance at trauma centers and community health clinics – they same places they go now because of medical indegency! What a load of excreta!

  • carotexas1

    Thank you Karen for the confirmation. What do they mean by inconveniently?
    .
    Paul-nnto I think you are right about a trial balloon. Are there new polls on healthcare the say public plan not wanted and people trust insurance companies?

  • Karen Tumulty

    sacred: 1,000 words coming up. and caro: inconveniently was my characterization, not theirs.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    PNNTO –
    .
    Aye, me hearty – bu’ it be no’ 30 wi’ a bullet – lookin’ more li’ 30 wi’ a bag o’ lead shot attached!
    .
    YARR!

  • afguy

    i have confirmed that Rahm was quoted accurately–and inconveniently.
    .
    He’s a deal-maker first and last – the details of the deal, since they’re to be made behind closed doors, do not have to reflect OUR wishes or desires.
    .
    Like I have said before… he’s the type of politician that I wish Obama had made more effort to keep out of his administration – someone who ultimately will be the death of anything approaching reform of the existing system(s).
    .
    He’s a consummate insider – and PROUD of it. I see no loyalty or even empathy with those outside the Beltway in his speech or actions. He’s just an “operator”.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    sacred –
    .
    No fair startin’ workin’ on yer comments b’fore th’ 1000 words be posted!
    .
    An’ thanks a LOT, laddie, now AS be convinced ‘er supersecretholymoly powers be actual workin’!
    .
    ARRGH!

  • sacredh

    pirate wench: Amy’s supersecretholymoly powers must be working. I’m not actually going to church now, but I do beep my horn when I drive by.

  • 53_3

    sacred:
    .
    Does Vern Fonk advertise where you live, too?

  • sacredh

    Who is Vern Fonk? Or what is Vern Fonk?

  • 53_3

    The are an auto insurance company for high risk drivers here in Western Washington (real America is over the Cascades from us). They put up insanely stupid and inane commercials and they always say at the end:
    .
    “Honk if you drive by Vern Fonk”

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    There is something that is being over looked here that I just wanted to point out.
    .
    Rahm Emmanuel just pushed the Overton Window to the left.
    .
    What I mean is whether he did it on purpose or not, the conversation has now turned from whether or not there will be a public option to what kind of public option it will be and or if it will have a trigger. Again I am not saying he set out to do that, nothing suggests that he did. But that IS the effect he is having and I for one am pretty happy about at least that part of it.
    .
    Now carry on…

  • shepherdwong

    “I haven’t been in the mag for weeks, and yet, I’ve been writing my little heart out! Plus, writing for the web lets me hang out with you guys.”
    .
    Thank you, Karen. And thank you fellow commentors. It will take every bit of scrutiny, criticism and citizen-lobbying to determine an outcome that serves the public at large, rather than mostly serving our corporate owners.

  • bitterpill8

    My attention was drawn to Greg Sargent at Plum Line (Who Runs Gov) and he is now saying that Pres Obama has reaffirmed his position on the Public Option. What gives? KT: does this suggest Rahm’s position is not set in stone? Or is there some kite flying?

  • sacredh

    53_3: I’m not sure if they have any of those commercials here or not. I don’t get any network stations (DISH). I bought a converter box but it’s still in it’s box.

  • http://aroundthesphere.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/does-one-missing-finger-know-what-the-other-fingers-are-doing/ Does One Missing Finger Know What The Other Fingers Are Doing? « Around The Sphere

    [...] Karen Tumulty in Swampland [...]

  • Karen Tumulty

    bitter: pls see my update. obama’s comment is vague in defining what, precisely, we are talking about with a “public option,” and does not really contradict anything rahm said. some (including the insurance companies) would argue that a public option set on a trigger–even a trigger that never gets pulled–”will force the insurance companies to compete and keep them honest.”
    .
    also, sg: i don’t see that shift in the argument at all. what KIND of public plan (and if it is one that really merits the label) has been the argument pretty much all along, among democrats at least. that’s what we’ve been talking about in this space for months now. obama has said repeatedly that he is committed to one (as he did today). and none of that precludes it getting bargained away at the end.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Fellow commentators:
    Is it beyond plausible that health-care reform can succeed without a public option? Just a suggestion here, but vigorous legislative oversight and regulation of the health-insurance industry could drive down cost and equalize access to health-care. For example, legislative caps on premiums, co-payments, ect could ensure reasonable rates. Implementation of ethics reform could put an end to practices such as rescission and enact more even-handed coverage which are applicable to pre-existing conditions. I do not presume to have the answer, however, it seems unlikely that any public plan will arise in the near future, and any that did with be accompanied by significant budgetary burdens bore by the taxpayers. If a system could be implemented that allows market driven companies, however with lower rates and ethical policies, how undesirable is this?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    KT
    .
    Well tell that to Chuck Grassley who has said several times that there would be no votes from the GOP with any plan that includes a public option. Mind you they probably won’t vote for the thing anyway, but major media outlets (FoxNews) (Morning Joe) (Wall Street Journal) are still advocating against ANY public option. So while I respect what you are seeing, I am not seeing any consensus moving towards a public plan and just focusing instead on the mechanics of it up until now.

  • Karen Tumulty

    Sg: You’re being silly. Do you really think that Rahm’s comments have done anything to change how Grassley views this argument?

  • Karen Tumulty

    Please see Ezra Klein’s point in the second update that I just posted.

  • bitterpill8

    Exiled: As long as health care is profit driven and focued on shareholders returns it is difficult to see how they can be regulated. The weakness is in “vigorous legislative oversight”. Recall that Lieberman never held a session on Homeland Security. When Congressman are given 5 minutes to get answers… when committees split on party lines: I just don’t have faith in the system.

    Listen to the slew of ads on car insurance. It all sounds so easy. But, the guys who sell the policy don’t turn up to deal with claims. The hard faced boys show up.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    KT
    .
    Its interesting that you I am being silly when we know that if I were to say that to you your thin skin would start showing. But no worries, I think a fair reading of what I wrote wouldn’t lead a rational person to think I was talking about convincing Chuck Grassley of anything. I was talking about the turn in the discourse. Again this is your wheel barrow in terms of information but as far as the tone of the conversation in the country about whether health care reform will pass and if so how it will look, I think its “silly” if you don’t believe that there are people still pushing hard against ANY form of a public option. And if we have moved past decideding IF there will be a public option to what KIND of public option there will be then that’s progress in my opinion.
    .
    Again if you go back and reread my first comment I acknowledged that Rahm most likely wasn’t trying to push the discourse that way, it just so happens that he has.

  • bitterpill8

    sgw: Rahm is so given to wheeling and dealing that he seems incapable of giving a plain and direct yes or no. Sometimes I get the impression that the game is the thing. And it is being played at the expense of some pretty defenceless people.

  • shepherdwong

    …some (including the insurance companies) would argue that a public option set on a trigger–even a trigger that never gets pulled–”will force the insurance companies to compete and keep them honest.”
    .
    Of course, not only is there no reason we should take anything they say as true, there’s every reason not to.

  • Karen Tumulty

    sg: that was sort of my point. rahm’s comments have NOT changed the shape of the conversation. that is really a “there must be a pony in here somewhere!” read of what he said. dems are arguing over what kind of public plan; republicans are saying there should not be one. and i apologize for calling you silly.

  • deconstructiva

    Exiled –
    I’d question a 100% private system *for everyone*. If companies won’t always pony up for claims, regulators would have to force them…in addition to banning preexisting coverage denials, etc. With so many rules and risks who’d stay in business (yay)? Who’s offering subprime mortgages now? Maybe you can turn the question around? Should health care be a public safety issue instead? Cenk Uygur brought up being cool with “socialized” police and fire protection. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/socialized-police_b_55698.html Imagine Free Market [tm] insurance-run fire protection – or lack of it? It happens: Jane Wells (CNBC) covered this in ’08 http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232/?video=928542265&play=1 …good luck in a wildfire if you don’t have this coverage. Sounds like our unhealth care system to me. Maybe HC should be a public safety / protection thingy instead of something to buy like a Quarter Pounder? still wondering….

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    No actually I don’t give a damn about ponies. The truth is the President himself has already weighed in and “clarified” the White House’s position so to me Rahm’s gaffe or whatever is besides the point. For me the point is that after Michael Jackson’s tribute is done today most of the chattering classes will be arguing about whether or not we should have a trigger on a public option rather than arguing over if there should even be a public option and again I see that as progress. Because if there is one thing that might be most essential to get the ConservaDems on board its going to be the cover of public polling not just nationally but from their particular state showing overwhelming support for a public option no matter how you ask the question or how Republicans try to frame it. If more of the discourse turns away from the question of if we should have a public option and turns to the question of how it should look I feel confident in believing that the composition question is easily won by the people fighting for a robust public option. The simplest way is just to say why would anybody on earth want to gamble with their and their kid’s/wives/loved ones’health care by giving health insurance companies a second chance?! We don’t have time for second chances and if it will be good enough after a few years of giving insurers a chance to get on the ball which they should have done over the last 50 years then it should be good enough now. I would much rather prosecute that debate than the stupid one about why we need a public option in the first place.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Oh and apology accepted.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    I got a shout out on Christina Bellantoni’s write up on the public option debate.
    .
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/bellantoni/2009/jul/07/the-great-health-care-fight-continues/?feat=home_blogs

  • 53_3

    “If a system could be implemented that allows market driven companies, however with lower rates and ethical policies, how undesirable is this?”
    .
    I don’t know, KT, but here is the big crock in the teeny weeny detention pond:
    .
    What do our past experiences lead us to conclude?
    .
    I honestly don’t see anything in this that points toward such a tightly regulated system. And it remains true that what you propose has has never been accomplished before, yet, the rest of the world has indeed found a workable solution!
    .
    Didja notice that KT? Didja look at the numbers?
    .
    My take, KT:
    .
    I want a bird in the hand rather than two in the bush…

  • 53_3

    KT:
    .
    Stop trying to sell the incredibly corrupt, convoluted, disorganized, labyrinthine and archaic system. It’s nothing but a rather crude joke on those of use who are hoping that we won’t be forced to choose between homelessness and health!

  • rose83

    53_3, I don’t know why you addressed those last two posts to KT instead of exiled.

  • shepherdwong

    “I don’t know why you addressed those last two posts to KT instead of exiled.”
    .
    I’m sure that was a mistake. Karen is doing yoeman’s work here while still needing to avoid being Froomkined for failing to be “fair and balanced” to the professional liars.

  • 53_3

    It was a mistake! Wow, did I slip!
    .
    My apologies KT! I have no idea how I managed that one…
    .
    Those comments are directed at Exiled!

  • 53_3

    That is my personal best brainfart, btw…

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    53_3
    ~
    Nicely done!
    ~
    When will we realize that government mandates on the citizenry are wholly despicable? I am nearing my breaking point on this. The recent HELP Committee proposal includes a personal mandate whereby a ‘low-cost’ public plan is imposed upon those who do not have healthcare, enforced by way of extensive fines. Fines which are an instrumental piece of the funding puzzle for this plan. How can any reasonable mind presume that forcing people into a health-care plan is good government? Those who cannot afford health-care are somehow better off by being forced into a plan and fined if they refrain? When did we sign over our individual sovereignty in personal life decisions to the federal government? Those of you who believe your own rhetoric about helping the disenfranchised masses through this blatant extension of federal oppression have brought naivete to historic new heights.
    ~
    Dear Federal Government.
    Go f*#@ yourself, royally.
    Sincerely,
    Neo

  • yutsano

    That is my personal best brainfart, btw…
    -
    We’ve all had doozies Fitty. That did get a Vulcan eyebrow raise out of me though. I mean I’m sure KT is getting heat for her studious reporting from all kinds of circles, but criticsm should come when it’s deserved. It kinda bites though, cause even though misdirected the points are spot on.
    -
    BTW I wanna know how much Vern Fonk is paying to get primo advertising space during Mariners games. It’s not only creepy but somehow misplaced.

  • rose83

    Yeah, I thought it was probably a mistake but I also wondered if perhaps you were trying to show the thinking implicit in MSM coverage of health care or something.
    .
    As for exiled’s question, the regulations needed to implement such a system would be so onerous that it would actually be more of a departure from free market capitalism than a simple single-payer system. Let business be business with a minimum of regulation and aid, and let government be government.
    .
    It’s just as much a perversion of the correct balance between government and private business to make the latter do the job of the former as it is to do the opposite.

  • http://health-care.name/2009/07/07/obama-hasnt-compromised-on-the-public-plan-yet/ Health Care. (united health care, universal health care) » Blog Archive » Obama Hasn’t Compromised on the Public Plan. Yet.

    [...] Karen Tumulty notes that notes that the trigger option Emanuel describes sounds a lot like the idea that [...]

  • 53_3

    “Those of you who believe your own rhetoric about helping the disenfranchised masses through this blatant extension of federal oppression have brought naivete to historic new heights.
    .
    I’m not sure Exiled, where you are coming from, but I agree within limits on imposing a fine on those who cant afford it, even if it doesn’t change things for them. I refer to my comments on the clause that allows caregivers to refuse public plan patients.
    .
    However, I’m not nearly so against the federal government as you are, and you have to admit, that states’ rights has been used in egregious fashion, and even though this is 2009, the recent spate I witnessed (which I amply demonstrated yesterday) does not speak well of some states’ rights adherents.
    .
    I’ll choose the Federal Government on matters of health care. The states can run their plans independently, but at or above whatever guidelines the Federal Government prescribes.
    .
    Sorry, thanks but, uh, no thanks on states rights…

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    New direction of federal government: concocting schemes to expand domestic imperialism by way of federal oppression, err guidance, of our lives! Can’t afford healthcare? We’ll help you out poor soul. Mandated individual coverage! Don’t worry that you still have to pay for it and will be fined if you do not enroll, those are irrelevant side issues. Because in the grand scheme of things paying your bills and putting food on the table is but a footnote to enrollment in a public health-plan…

  • 53_3

    yuts, rose:
    .
    Thanks for being so forgiving! I hope KT is as well. Particularly KT!
    .
    After all, she has powers. She’s alluded to them before and I have no stomach, really, for being toasted to a fritter in front of my computer, while still in my socks…

  • 53_3

    Again, on that particular aspect, Exiled, we agree. However, I want to see a universal plan paid for by federal taxes, with a minimum standard for individual states to meet.
    .
    Get rid of this ridiculously overpriced, corrupt, and convoluted system. Allow people who have the means and desire to purchase insurance over and above what they get for being a taxpayer and a US Citizen. Nothing wrong with allowing the upper income people to buy more if they want it.
    .
    Again, though, on Federal Government involvement, recent history has shown that states’ rights is highly deficient on equity issues, which this actually is.

  • yutsano

    After all, she has powers. She’s alluded to them before and I have no stomach, really, for being toasted to a fritter in front of my computer, while still in my socks…
    -
    PW and I will just follow the burnt smell and find your body and give you a proper disposal. ;)

  • 53_3

    Thanks, yuts. That’s very reassuring.
    .
    I’ll tell my wife…

  • 53_3

    Oh yuts, I almost forgot:
    .
    I actually don’t know how much they (Vern Fonk) pays, but it would save them money if they were to advertise on the intermet instead…

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    53_3
    ~
    This has nothing to do with state rights. Any state that were to follow the federal lead and attempt to impose its self-righteous notion of equity in health-care upon its citizenry will expeditiously bear the scorn of my contempt. Government imposition of these individual mandates are but another money-making scheme to tax/fine the life out of an already comatose populace.
    ~
    Dear government, federal and state,
    Go f*#@ yourself, doubly.
    Sincerely,
    Neo

  • yutsano

    Get rid of this ridiculously overpriced, corrupt, and convoluted system. Allow people who have the means and desire to purchase insurance over and above what they get for being a taxpayer and a US Citizen. Nothing wrong with allowing the upper income people to buy more if they want it.
    -
    ZOMG Fitty! You just described the (gasp) AUSTRALIAN HEALTH SYSTEM!!! Lordy how COULD you suggest anything those rampant Communist Aussies use and love? For shame Fitty!
    -
    /snarcasm

  • 53_3

    “Any state that were to follow the federal lead and attempt to impose its self-righteous notion of equity in health-care upon its citizenry will expeditiously bear the scorn of my contempt.”
    .
    So you are against universal health paid for by taxes at the federal level?
    .
    Your opinion is your opinion, so I don’t think I would try to convince you otherwise, but it certainly seems that two observations I’ve made are accurate:
    .
    1. The “free market” solution has crashed and burned.
    2. The rest of the world has found, at minimum, a workable solution.
    .
    Seems to me those two facts on the ground are far more persuasive to me than any ideology could be. I’m a practical individual. I go with what works and throw away those things that don’t.

  • 53_3

    yuts, I would bow my head in shame, but I’m afraid of KT’s powers…

  • 53_3

    She’s gonna toast my heart on a stick. I know it…

  • yutsano

    This has nothing to do with state rights. Any state that were to follow the federal lead and attempt to impose its self-righteous notion of equity in health-care upon its citizenry will expeditiously bear the scorn of my contempt. Government imposition of these individual mandates are but another money-making scheme to tax/fine the life out of an already comatose populace.
    -
    Neo, do you know, exactly, where that money goes if an individual mandate is imposed? I’ll give you a hint, it’s NOT the government. An individual mandate is a requirement to buy PRIVATE insurance, which makes it equally repulsive to me, only for vastly different reasons. In this instance, private business is not the solution, it’s the problem, and they are trying to insert themselves into the process for the exclusive purpose of preserving their bottom line. I am with Fitty in that if you want coverage over and beyond what the government can/will provide, then by all means feel free to purchase it yourself. Just don’t get in the way of the 49 million (new estimate I saw on CNN today, take that number and source for what it’s worth) who need this NOW.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Dear government, federal and state,
    Go f*#@ yourself, doubly.
    Sincerely,
    Neo
    .
    Is this someone name stealing? As irritating as Neo can be I can’t believe Neo would travel the Rusty-way.

  • yutsano

    She’s gonna toast my heart on a stick. I know it…
    -
    Maybe if we prepare her an offering of smoked salmon and marionberry pie she will be merciful upon us…

  • 53_3

    I thought it was Pirate Wench that started the Go f*#@ yourself, _____ craze, PNNTO.
    .
    I case you are right, don’t forget that Halperein has had Rusty’s comment prominently displayed on the Politics page for what, six weeks now?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    I just wanted to point this out buried in a HuffPo post harshly critical of Rahm today.
    .
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/07/sanders-takes-on-emanuel_n_227289.html
    .

    In private, White House officials say that Emanuel’s remarks have been overplayed. His interview was with multiple papers, one administration official noted, yet only The Journal made him appear to be endorsing the trigger option, which would prohibit the implementation of a government-run option until certain economic conditions were met.

    .
    I thought it might have been suspect since it was in the WingNut Journal but I left it alone after KT confirmed he said it. So KT can you try to find out which other media outlets were there when Rahm was speaking and how their coverage diverged from the Wall Street Journal if at all? Thanks.

  • 53_3

    Yuts, do you suppose you and rose and others might just intervene and point out that it was all an innocent mistake?
    .
    Maybe she’ll listen!
    .
    For some reason, I just keep cringing in anticipation. Maybe I’m paranoid. The spiders. All those socialists! Woah, those brown people…
    .
    Damn. Maybe I’m turning into a Republican!

  • Paul-no not that one

    Okay thanks for the context fifty. So lamely derivative.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Yutsano
    ~
    You are missing the point. The only way that universal health care or a public option will solve the problem is if those who already can barely stay afloat financially are spared this economic death sentence. The public option forces those without coverage to enroll (which they still have to pay for) and fines them if they do not. How does this solve the problem for those who haven’t health-care because they cannot afford it? Its a luxury to many, one that will never compete with paying bills, paying the mortgage, and putting food on the table. Any significant tax hike for a universal plan will similarly burden those who are on the brink of financial collapse. Any plan that imposes more costs on these families in the name of assisting the disenfranchised masses in gaining access to healthcare is simply a hoax, and a vicious one at that.

  • 53_3

    Ahhh. Better. The Geodon helped!
    .
    Anyway, I have no idea just why they are even bothering with health care reform. So far, KT’s addition of Ezra Klein’s take at the end pretty much spells out just how I feel about the current process.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    PNNTO
    ~
    So lamely derivative.
    I see where your loyalties lie. Government over country, eh?

  • Paul-no not that one

    neo-So is there ANY part of the state or federal government you don’t want to” f*#@ yourself, doubly”?
    .
    And why did your local government escape your tantrum?
    .
    So silly.

  • yutsano

    I see where your loyalties lie. Government over country, eh?
    -
    ¿que? Is that some strange Palinism there? Government over country? Are they two separate entities? HOW?

  • Paul-no not that one

    That’s Patriotism yutsano.
    .
    Well neo’s version at any rate.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Wait, aren’t Republicans supposed to be the party of personal responsibility? Hell I would think they would be all for the individual mandates since they force everyone to pay their share instead of forcing someone else’s burden on to them. But such as it is with most “conservative” principles. They usually end up bumping into each other.
    .
    personal responsibility vs govt interference.

  • rose83

    1. The “free market” solution has crashed and burned.
    2. The rest of the world has found, at minimum, a workable solution.
    .
    Seems to me those two facts on the ground are far more persuasive to me than any ideology could be. I’m a practical individual. I go with what works and throw away those things that don’t.

    .
    53_3, well said.
    .
    KT, please use your powers for good and show 53_3 mercy.
    .
    Any significant tax hike for a universal plan will similarly burden those who are on the brink of financial collapse.
    .
    exiled, as someone – I think it was Paul Dirks – pointed out in another thread there is no reason a tax hike would have to be applied equally across all income brackets. Plus, single-payer is in fact cheaper than the current system.
    .
    There are few political issues where the most desirable option is also the least expensive, but this is fortunately one of them.

  • ohiolib

    Well, Exiled, if you could show me a way that would give universal or near-universal coverage at reasonable rates without excessive gov’t involvement, I would seriously consider it. The problem is that I am no reason to believe such a system would work, not least because any serious health care reform would have to weaken or completely sever the job/insurance link we have now. This link stifles real competition, locks people into jobs, and gives insurance bureaucrats incredible leverage over recipients. Personally, I doubt that the free market could effectively handle this large of a shake-up without significant gov’t aid. I’m not convinced that single payer is a good idea, but there’s been a remarkable dearth of coherent, comprehensive alternatives.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    PNNTO
    ~
    Local government escaped my ‘tantrum’ because it is the only governmental entity actually concerned with the well being of its constituents.
    ~
    Yutsano
    Government and country are most certainly two separate entities. Government is authority. Country is the sum of its parts, including it’s citizens.
    ~
    Rose
    The most ideal situation is one where the people are not obligated to have health-insurance. Forcing those who cannot afford current health-care into a new system simply because it is cheaper is a horrible rationale. Forcing people to enroll in and pay for something they cannot afford does no good whatsoever.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Ohiolib
    ~
    I’m all for healthcare reform to drive down costs and do away with unethical corruption. However, you have no idea how selfish the plans being advocated are. Middle class loves it because they get a less expensive version that they can afford. But they neglect to foresee that a very real and significant group of people still will not be be to afford even a cheaper version and yet it is suggested that it be mandatory and enforced with fines. This is a death sentence for the poor.

  • shepherdwong

    “The public option forces those without coverage to enroll (which they still have to pay for) and fines them if they do not. How does this solve the problem for those who haven’t health-care because they cannot afford it? Its a luxury to many, one that will never compete with paying bills, paying the mortgage, and putting food on the table. Any significant tax hike for a universal plan will similarly burden those who are on the brink of financial collapse.”
    .
    The public option doesn’t force anyone to do anything, it simply gives them another choice of insurer – the government. The entire reform measure will require enrollment in some form of insurance because having everyone insured reduces overall cost by providing access before illnesses become more severe and expensive and spreads cost and risk more widely. What you’re also missing in your desire to feed your misplaced pique at government (if you understood anything, you’d know that it is corporate control of government that should earn your ire) is that those who can’t afford to buy insurance will be subsidized, presumably through progressive taxation.
    .
    One more thing: I’m not the slightest bit interested in paying for your health care through higher taxes and insurance premiums when, not if, you get sick through your own colossally short-sighted, self-absorption and indoctrinated hatred of government.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Shepherd
    ~
    Wrong. The HELP committee plan includes a personal mandate whereby every individual must enroll in some form of health-care policy, households with minors must ensure they are covered as well, punishable by fines of up to $1,000. Ask KT, she’s the one who told me.

  • bitterpill8

    KT: Saw you on BBC World. John Podesta: optimistic about the public option. You were ambivalent and the host appeared to be conversant with your own personal story re: brother. That tells me that the BBC host did his homework. I don’t get your reticence. Does your profession impose some limit on you taking a defined position?

    Neo: I have followed your posts: would you prefer an individual deal directly with a doctor or hospital and settle up bills personally. That way one avoid bureaucracies in the insurance industry and it become anothet shopping expedition. Why should we encourage a private insurer, give them tax breaks, etc when they are more interested in return on investment. A more fundamental question: if a member of your family has a heart attack are you willing to shop around for care? You know, just as you would go out and buy a suit.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Shepherd
    ~
    My disdain for American government falls only behind that of corporate and foreign interests. We’ve outsourced our foreign policy to AIPAC and outsourced much of our domestic sovereignty to corporate interests. These two sources of influence I detest most. However, this does not absolve American government’s war on the lower class, which includes these latest attempts to force enroll the populace in health-care plans.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Holy Frijoles Mi Amigos!
    .
    http://www.rollcall.com/news/36546-1.html
    .

    Reid to Baucus: Stop Chasing GOP Votes on Health Care

    .

    Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) on Tuesday ordered Finance Chairman Max Baucus (D-Mont.) to drop a proposal to tax health benefits and stop chasing Republican votes on a massive health care reform bill.
    .
    Reid, whose leadership is considered crucial if President Barack Obama is to deliver on his promise of enacting health care reform this year, offered the directive to Baucus through an intermediary after consulting with Senate Democratic leaders during Tuesday morning’s regularly scheduled leadership meeting. Baucus was meeting with Finance ranking member Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) Tuesday afternoon to relay the information.
    .
    According to Democratic sources, Reid told Baucus that taxing health benefits and failing to include a strong government-run insurance option of some sort in his bill would cost 10 to 15 Democratic votes; Reid told Baucus it wasn’t worth securing the support of Grassley and at best a few additional Republicans.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Bitter
    ~
    Opposition to forcing people into a plan they cannot afford does not equate to support of tax breaks for insurance companies. I do not recall advocating any such status quo. Furthermore, my little sister was premature, racking up hospital expenses in excess of $700,000. BlueCross BlueShield covered very little, leaving my parents with ongoing crushing bills to this day. I am well aware of the need for reform. However, reform must not come at the expense of crushing the lowest class in America.

  • yutsano

    Government and country are most certainly two separate entities. Government is authority. Country is the sum of its parts, including it’s citizens.
    -
    :: boggle ::
    -
    No seriously, I gave myself whiplash when I first saw that. Government is authority DERIVED from the people, it’s not some big black evil thing that creeps up on you when you sleep at night Neo. We are fortunate in that we live in a governmental system that allows us to change (for what that’s worth deferring to Shep’s comment above which has a lot of truth in it) the course of our government’s direction. But it only exists because of us, not in spite of it. You don’t like the direction it’s going, fine. To be honest, we’ve tried it your way for thirty years, and it didn’t work. We need to do something different Neo, we need to be better than we are right now.

  • rose83

    The most ideal situation is one where the people are not obligated to have health-insurance.
    .
    I don’t think anyone here is supporting the “mandate people can’t afford” idea. That said, I’m not automatically opposed to all mandates. In fact a mandate of some form for health care is essential to any modern civilized society. It’s ridiculous to suggest that people can just “choose” to not pay for health care: if they get sick they’ll go to an ER and the rest of society will pay, but it will probably cost more money overall because preventive medicine is so cost-effective.
    .
    Health insurance is not equivalent to any other household expenditure, like rent, food, heat or clothing; all health care expenditures made by healthy people, whether they’re paid through premiums or taxes, are insurance. Anyone who can contribute to societal health care costs should, because almost everyone will eventually require expensive health care and anyone could suddenly need expensive medical care at any moment.
    .
    Health care is the ultimate shared expenditure that everyone benefits from and most importantly needs, in a way things like even schools, military bases and roads are not.

  • ohiolib

    But they neglect to foresee that a very real and significant group of people still will not be be to afford even a cheaper version and yet it is suggested that it be mandatory and enforced with fines. This is a death sentence for the poor.
    -
    That’s part of what I meant about coherent comprehensive alternatives. The only way a mandate would work is with complete hardship waivers for all those below a certain point, thus preventing it from being their death sentence. Of course, then we fight about where the line should be, but event hat would be an improvement. And we still miss-significantly-the goal of universal coverage. But if that’s the best congress can give us, well, better half a loaf than none at all. I’m less concerned with the ideological bent of solutions and more concerned with whether they work.

  • shepherdwong

    “Wrong. The HELP committee plan includes a personal mandate…”
    .
    And still, the “public option” is not “a personal mandate”, it’s a government-paid insurance option. You’re wrong – in so many ways.
    .
    And, FYI, the “war on the lower class” is exactly one of those domestic policies we’ve “outsourced” to “corporate interests”.

  • ohiolib

    Government and country are most certainly two separate entities. Government is authority. Country is the sum of its parts, including it’s citizens.
    -
    I’m afraid I agree with Neo more than you, yutsano. remember how Bush trashed the country, and most sane Americans had a problem with that? I think Neo is over-simplifying the divide, but he’s right that there is a difference between government and country. Personally, I think of government as the people in office, and the country as REPRESENTED by, politically, the central document(s) that define it: in our case, the constitution. It doesn’t happen too often, but I think Neo is completely right in his assertion that government and country are different things, even if I define them differently.

  • bitterpill8

    sgw: you are telling me Reid grew a backbone????

    Exiled: You really are confusing me. Maybe my reading skills are not up to par. But given your own family history I would have thought you would support a plan that did not land your parents with such a crushing cost. I think public insurance would have helped your parents. Such plans in the “socialist world of Europe and Australasia” would have never placed such a burden on your family.

    The whole point, exiled is that your tax and mine should help either of us when in need.

    I am having a problem understanding you because at the root of it all you want your fellow citizens to have access to health care at a reasonable cost: reasonable being defined as something an average worker can afford.

  • Karen Tumulty

    SG: White house source has confirmed to me that rahm said it, and it was pretty unambiguous. but i wasn’t there, so i don’t have a transcript. why the other reporters didn’t pick up on it: i think because a lot of reporters are now assuming that the white house is very flexible/ultimately going to bargain away the public option, and therefore didn’t view it as news.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    bitterpill
    .
    All I can tell you is that I damn near fainted when I read it. I hope I am not getting Kelly Ripa(ed)

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Shepherd
    ~
    The HELP proposal is the public-plan! It provides a government option, yes, however, there is a mandate that everyone must choose one of the options.
    ~
    So are we to continually absolve our leaders of guilt because they are spineless cowards who cave into corporate demands that threaten America itself? You can hardly blame a corporation for pursuing profits, its sort of the essence of its existence. You can, however, vehemently hold government ‘leadership’ accountable for outsourcing their authority to corporate interests. Corporations can exist outside of government complicity.

  • Karen Tumulty

    bitter writes:
    .
    KT Saw you on BBC World. John Podesta: optimistic about the public option. You were ambivalent and the host appeared to be conversant with your own personal story re: brother. That tells me that the BBC host did his homework. I don’t get your reticence. Does your profession impose some limit on you taking a defined position?
    .
    He was asking me to predict what is going to happen, whether meaningful health care reform (not necessarily public option) will pass. i do my very best to avoid predicting things like that, though people on TV always try to corner each other into doing it, because the one thing i know is that i don’t know.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    KT
    .
    Did you see my comment at 7:49. Maybe the Dems WON’T be negotiating the public option away.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Yutsano
    ~
    You do not still believe in the fairy tale that is “Government of the people, by the people, for the people?” Do you?
    ~
    If so, I have one acronym for you: AIPAC.
    ~
    Despite that, there is an endless list of private/corporate interests to which our leadership is beholden. The list does not include the private interests of citizens, I can assure you of that.

  • Karen Tumulty

    also, 53_3, i’m feeling merciful today, so i will not use my awesome powers on you. plus, i’m feeling guilty about being snarky to sgwhite.

  • bitterpill8

    Ah KT: you get the last word!

  • Karen Tumulty

    yes, sg, saw that at 7:49. had picked up something along those lines as well, but haven’t had time to check it out with reid’s folks. what i heard was mostly centered on their opposition to taxing benefits, that the air is really going out of that idea because they got a real earful from their constituents over the break. not clear on what any of this means for public option, but will do some investigating tomorrow.

  • yutsano

    Despite that, there is an endless list of private/corporate interests to which our leadership is beholden. The list does not include the private interests of citizens, I can assure you of that.
    -
    And you would rather those corporate/private interests control your access to health care rather than have access to it merely by being a citizen of the United States. Lovely.

  • shepherdwong

    “It provides a government option, yes, however, there is a mandate that everyone must choose one of the options.”
    .
    Proving that they are separate things. Please drop this stupid argument before you embarrass yourself any further. The public option is not, by itself, a mandate to buy insurance.
    .
    “So are we to continually absolve our leaders of guilt because they are spineless cowards who cave into corporate demands that threaten America itself? You can hardly blame a corporation for pursuing profits, its sort of the essence of its existence.”
    .
    First of all, you won’t see me or any true liberal absolve anyone for betraying their duty to the public, that’s grown to be more of a “conservative” thing. Second, I expect corporations to seek profits (in fact, that’s all I really want them to do) and I expect them to try to game the system by 1) earning Bill of Rights protections they don’t deserve and 2) buying access to our representatives in government. I even expect Senators to try to keep their sweet gigs buy accepting campaign cash from corporate donors and generally try to earn favor from their fellow elites. Blame is an entirely different matter.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Yutsano
    ~
    Where the hell have I advocated the status quo? I am not advocating corporate control of access to health-care. Look if we can figure out a way to implement a system whereby everyone has access to health-care, but you do not pay monthly insurance payments, I’m all for it, even with tax increase, I suppose. What I do not support is mandatory policies whereby an additional monthly payment is required of the already overburdened lower class.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Shepherd
    ~
    Try to keep up here, ok. The HELP committee proposal offers a public-option. Now, while the public-option is not in itself synonymous with an individual mandate, the mandate is required unofficially to pay for the damn public-option. As it sits now, public option equates to individual mandate.
    ~
    As for absolving our leaders of their responsibilities to the people, that is neither a conservative nor a liberal agenda. What it is, however, is a fact of reality for both Democratic and Republican congressmen that they will likely not get very far without serving corporate interest or AIPAC’s interests. It is a symptom of American politics which pervades both parties; what it is not is an indictment of any particular ideology.

  • Paul-no not that one

    This isn’t directed to neo but my (many) republican cow-workers who 5 years ago were full of vim and vigor about their party about 3 years ago started with the “they all stink” stuff.

  • jcapan
  • jcapan

    Pinto–what!?

  • shepherdwong

    “The HELP committee proposal offers a public-option. Now, while the public-option is not in itself synonymous with an individual mandate, the mandate is required unofficially to pay for the damn public-option.”
    .
    No it’s not, it’s to pay for extending coverage to the 50 million uninsured, whether private insurance or public option – the public option will simply drive down the ultimate cost. But at least you’re now admitting that they’re two different things.
    .
    Look, this is the second nonsense, invisible to the lucid, “conservative” partisan argument you’ve stubbornly defended in as many days. I think you’re sincere so I’m diagramming you as a “mistaken” libertarian/conservative. So, no hard feelings, but I have no use for arguing with you.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    I’m not defending anything, shep. When will you recognize that? I am simply opposing any forced health-care initiative in that I, personally without any outside influence or partisan stewardship, have reached a conclusion based on mere logic that to thrust an impoverished populace into an enrollment whereby their daily cost of living is increased is considerably imprudent and positively negligent.
    ~
    And what, out of curiosity, would be the other partisan argument I have defended?

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    yutsano –
    .
    I be ri’ fond o’ ol’ 53, an’ will be ‘appy t’ accompany ye on th’ search fer th’ charred remains, but ye’ve got t’ be th’ one pickin’ ‘em up fer burial! I be a’ risk wi’ KT meself, I be thinkin’, an’ be ri’ worried lightnin’ be strikin’ twice were I th’ two o’ us – 53 an’ me – ye be total innocent as a babe yerself, I be sure ;) available t’ be zapped in th’ same location. An’ AS supersecretholymoly won’t be protectin’ me, neither.
    .
    Be ye sure ye be wantin’ me on th’ rescue mission? It mi’ be puttin’ yerself in danger!
    .
    Arrgh!

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    Agh – yutsano – tha’ be an old post! I be confused, wadin’ through neoexile’s anti govt diatribes!
    .
    YARR!

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    53 –
    .
    Never be mindin’ – after re-readin’ me comments t’ yutsano I were realizin’ I were soundin li’ a bloody coward! Fergive me fer disgracin’ th’ code! I be definite in on comin’ after yer toasted remains, me hearty! No matter wha’ KT be doin’ t’ ye, ye can be countin’ on me…after I be fortifyin’ meself wi’ a bit o’ th’ sacred rum, o’ course! Thar be nothin’ li’ th’ sacred rum fer restorin’ th’ ol’ fortitude!
    .
    Arrgh!

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    neoexile –
    .
    Ye be resortin’ t’ yer semantic bluster ag’in, an’ equatin’ yer own opinion wi’ objective logic…ye’ve a bad habit o’ doin’ tha’, me bucko! Ye be soundin’ complete bloody sanctimonious!
    .
    Yer backslidin’ these past couple o’ days be ri’ disappointin’ – tho no’ unexpected.
    .
    An’ only a dirty scoundrel would be stealin’ a pirate’s F yerself! Give it up – it only be soundin flat impotent comin’ fr’m ye, so obvious it be ye be liftin’ it – it be plagarism, I tell ye, an’ I won’t be toleratin’ it! Don’t make me be gettin’ th’ 9 tails out an’ lashin’ ye t’ within’ an inch o’ yer scurvy existence fer yer blaggardly insolence!
    .
    YARR!

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Pirate
    ~
    I believe you mistake integrity and principles for sanctimony. While you may well doubt the sincerity, it is there nonetheless. I generally take a cynical view of government, especially given its track record. I expect that motivations are not altruistic, and as such I generally bemoan any alleged effort to take over a given industry for the greater good. I view government’s role as limited really to only a few areas: foreign policy, security and defense, and fostering an economic environment whereby free-market competition can thrive. Other than that, its each and every man for himself, much like the pirate infested high seas.

  • deconstructiva

    Exiled: am curious, really. Your last statement sounds similar to Ayn Rand’s govt. only of army, police, and courts to settle disputes per laws…never mind who creates those laws (she had a judge rewriting the constitution at end of Atlas Shrugged at his own whim). But how does a limited govt. pay for itself without unfair taxes that end up punishing someone? (I haven’t read every pondering of AR’s but hadn’t found an answer yet.) How would you foster a market environment with minimal govt.? Seriously, no snarcasm.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Deconstructiva
    ~
    I am not wholly opposed to any deviation from my aforementioned, albeit limited, government scheme. Certainly legislature must exist to create law. Taxes must exist to support the government. These are political necessities. However they should not dissuade us from efforts to shrink the unnecessary growth of the federal government, to reduce the number of social programs that burden society, to limit the authority of federal intervention, to strip the influence of corporate and foreign lobbying interests, and to seriously reduce spending and burdensome legal initiatives. We haven’t always had the system we now have and it never stopped forward progress. It is not the necessity that people believe it is, we are just ingrained, as a nation, on a perceived dependency on federal government. In truth, while government has always had an element of corruption to it, there was a time when there was some sense of honor to it, a sense of dignity and stewardship. Now, with the celebrity driven imagery employed by politicians and the corporate bondage to which Congress is yoked, I see nothing admirable about these men and women of government, nothing at all. We need reform structured around government accountability to the people, an end to lobbying interests, corporate bankrolling, and foreign intervention in our domestic politics, and significant reductions in government authority.

  • deconstructiva

    Exiled: good points, but limiting federal intervention WHERE might be a problem? Example – we didn’t have supervision over derivatives trading, unlike stocks. Those famous swaps and other side bets based on home mortgages wrecked Wall St. firms, AIG, etc. When Lehman Bros. was let go, you saw the market damage. If there were no crimes (from no laws) there was (tort) civil damage, yes? And many mortgages were based on inflated numbers – Angelo Mozilo (Countrywide) is facing civil action from SEC. So if we have little if any regulation over market trading, lending, etc., what would happen? Or did that happen already? oops (and we haven’t even circled back to health care…) Thoughts?

  • yutsano

    I am not advocating corporate control of access to health-care. Look if we can figure out a way to implement a system whereby everyone has access to health-care, but you do not pay monthly insurance payments, I’m all for it, even with tax increase, I suppose. What I do not support is mandatory policies whereby an additional monthly payment is required of the already overburdened lower class.
    -
    Wait, WHAT??? How does this even come close to jibing with your minimal government views? If there’s a tax increase, that by very definition means a government-run public plan. Otherwise what’s the point of a tax increase to expand access to health care unless you just want to hand it right over to the insurance companies, which will be little to no improvement even in a tightened regulatory scheme. The private sector is no longer interested in providing health care, just maximizing profits. If you don’t want a new government program, what’s left?

  • rose83

    I generally take a cynical view of government, especially given its track record. I expect that motivations are not altruistic, and as such I generally bemoan any alleged effort to take over a given industry for the greater good. I view government’s role as limited really to only a few areas: foreign policy, security and defense, and fostering an economic environment whereby free-market competition can thrive. Other than that, its each and every man for himself, much like the pirate infested high seas.
    .
    I agree with a lot of this, especially the cynicism part. But where I differ is that I believe providing universal health care at a reasonable cost is an essential element of the government’s responsibilities to foster “an economic environment whereby free-market competition can thrive.” I imagine GM shareholders might agree with me on that!
    .
    The current health care system is a tax on most American business, and its inefficiencies and absurdities are a subsidy to a relatively small section of American business. It seems strangely dogmatic to insist on a health care system that is more expensive just because it is supposedly consistent with the tenets of free market competition. One of the roots of the ideological debate here is that when Smith, Burke et al. were forming their theories, health care was way cheaper. It was more like clothing, instead of military defense, which it resembles much more now. So people – conservatives especially – need to think about what their thinking (and I’m aware Burke and Smith differed) on health care would be in a 21st-century context. I for one have little doubt that Adam Smith would support a single-payer system, probably like the NHS before its latest reinvestments: cheap, gets the job done with no frills, and allows amble opportunity for wealthier Britons to get more luxurious private health care. It is unimaginable that Smith would have ever advocated something that was more expensive, less effective and a competitive burden on business merely because of reasons of ideological purity.
    .
    I expect you will say you too don’t support the status quo, but I’d be interested in what exactly you are advocating. Obviously single-payer or any health care reform proposal should not be compared with perfection, but rather with the other viable alternatives.
    .
    Signing off now…

  • 53_3

    Wow. Am I relieved!
    .
    I stayed away from the computer all day to avoid a rather unpleasant fate, but after KT absolved me, I feel safe again.
    .
    Thanks, Pirate Wench, you can call off that search.
    .
    For now, anyway…

  • 53_3

    Pirate Wench:
    .
    I know you and yuts have your hearts in the right place, and I never for a moment worried about your fortitude because I know that there’s always another bottle of it in the Captains’ chest!

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