In the Arena

Sarah Palin’s America

All this talk about Sarah Palin’s constituency being “real Americans” raises the question, yet again, of who the unreal Americans are. Last September, when the Governor burst upon the scene like a head-on collision, I wrote that Palin’s America–white folks, small towns, traditional values–was a Republican fantasy, a vestige of Ronald Reagan’s “Morning in America” hornswoggle in the 1980s. (This fantasy was reinforced by John McCain’s fetishizing of Joe the Unlicensed Plumber.)

Real America is much different from, and more interesting than, that white-bread fantasy, a problem the Republican Party–the party of immigrant bashing–will be wrestling with for the immediate future. And it brings to mind a conversation I overheard, and can’t get out of my mind, between two educated Iranians at a North Tehran party last month. Both had attended university in the U.S. One had recently returned from the States, the other hadn’t been back here in 15 years. “You wouldn’t recognize the place,” the recent returnee said. “They don’t have any Americans left.”

He was joking, of course. But the fact is, America–Barack Obama’s America–is a different, more exhilarating, sophisticated and diverse place from the Reagan fantasy. Sarah Palin’s political future will be crippled by her inability to speak to that America, as will the Republican Party’s, so long as it scorns diversity and “cosmopolitan” sensibilities–as Rudy Guiliani, of all people, did at the GOP Convention last summer. The attempts to plaster over this glaring deficiency by putting people like Michael Steele and Bobby Jindal front and center are, to coin a phrase, like putting lipstick on a pig.

Related Topics: Iran, Republican Party, Sarah Palin, Sarah Palin
  • Latest on Swampland

    Morning Must Reads: Accommodation

    Romney: 'I Misspoke'HuffPost Politics

    Not Farewell, But Fare Forward

    Five years ago, I opened up my e-mail to find a message from Priscilla Painton, then-executive editor at TIME. “No, this is not a solicitation to buy a subscription,” she began, before telling me that the magazine was looking for a new politics editor and asking whether I was interested. I don’t entirely remember what my initial reaction was, but I believe it involved a happy dance around the apartment.

  • FlownOver

    We’re still waiting, of course, for political/national affairs reporters to ask Palin about this “real American” guff, and what all the rest of us are supposed to do about our dissatisfaction with her goal of a cultural dictatorship.

  • afguy

    “You wouldn’t recognize the place,” the recent returnee said. “They don’t have any Americans left.”
    .
    I know what they mean, Joe. I think you do too. Sometimes it seems that those on the outside, who might have seen us during more coherent times in the past, can see the changes more plainly than we can.

  • Ivy_B

    Excellent points, Joe. Will Bunch, a columnist for the Philadelphia Daily News has written a book about the Reagan fantasy called Tear Down This Myth. Well worth a read. Another thing that is funny is that Reagan raised taxes when he had to and did a number of other things that would get him soundly booed by today’s Repubs. Or, they would twist themselves into pretzels trying to square the reality with their pontificating.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    All very true. The party’s cultural sensibilities are 100% about being all mad about how hard it is for a white guy to get a break in this country.
    -
    However, let’s not overlook the fact that their substantive proposals are complete nonsense. Also.

  • palininatowel

    I don’t know… As our education funding continues to dry up, maybe the audience for Palin’s incoherent rambling will actually grow.
    .
    Hey! She sounds jes like me! An’ she’s purty!”

  • mrein

    “All this talk about Sarah Palin’s constituency being ‘real Americans’ . . .”
    .
    I remember that talk during the election, but I haven’t heard anybody use the term “real Americans” since then.
    .
    What are you talking about Joe, or is this just a straw man?

  • square1

    The worst part of the Palin/Malkin wing of the GOP is that they are far less concerned about protecting the interests of Real Americans as they are insistent that Fake Americans get screwed.
    .
    Spob’s views on health care are a perfect example of this. For Spob, it is better that ten Real Americans either die from a lack of health care or go bankrupt from medical bills than one Fake American get more medical treatment than he or she paid for.

  • kattest123

    1. JoeKline is one of the few national figures who’s come out explicitly in support of illegal immigration; most try to hide what they support, but ol’ JoKe came right out and said it.
    .
    2. The GOP leadership supports immigration of all kinds just as strong as the Dems do. The former are corrupt and paid off by those who want cheap labor. The latter are corrupt, supporting law-breaking in order to obtain power. Both groups are corrupt and support the illegal activity that most Americans oppose.
    .
    For the truth about these issues, visit my site and subscribe to my feed. For just one example of what I cover that you will never in a million years hear from Time Magazine or hacks like JoKe, see this. Compare what I tell you at that page to what JoKe would tell you about the same group.

  • spob

    Joe the Unlicensed Plumber–or Joe, the victim of unscrupulous state officials (Dems) who released confidential info about him. Funny that with all the fetishing about privacy in the media during the Bush years, the official attack on JTP largely went unmentioned. That continues in this blog post. JTP had the audacity to speak truth to power, to borrow a phrase, and Dems attacked him for it. As does Joe Klein.
    .
    This quote is interesting: “I wrote that Palin’s America–white folks, small towns, traditional values–was a Republican fantasy, a vestige of Ronald Reagan’s “Morning in America” hornswoggle in the 1980s.”
    .
    Well, Joe, perhaps you ought to look closer at Barack Obama’s views then. His bona fides on race is less than Palin’s. Putting aside the abject bias involved in his minimizing the Jena Six assault on Justin Barker as a “schoolyard fight”, we have this creepy quote, “The emotions between the races could never be pure; even love was tarnished by the desire to find in the other some element that was missing in ourselves. Whether we sought out our demons or salvation, the other race would always remain just that: menacing, alien, and apart.”
    .

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    For all the talk about America being a ‘melting pot’, I see a big part of the problem is that people simply don’t travel enough. I still recall encountering people who lived within 60 miles of the Chicago city limit who nevertheless would never think of going to the city except maybe to see a baseball game and only then in the safety of a large group. It’s easy to think that you represent the ‘real’ America if the only people you see who aren’t just like you are on the TeeVee.

  • spob

    “Spob’s views on health care are a perfect example of this. For Spob, it is better that ten Real Americans either die from a lack of health care or go bankrupt from medical bills than one Fake American get more medical treatment than he or she paid for.”
    .
    I havent commented for a while. Yet I still get mischaracterized.

  • palininatowel

    Oh, kattest123, than you for the link to your nearly unbroken stream of genius. It flows from you like the Columbia rushing to the Pacific.
    .
    I just wish I could windsurf in it.

  • spob

    should be bona fides on race “are” not “is”

  • deconstructiva

    McCain ’08 pondering VP pick…”Hmm, need a woman to reel in Hillary supporters, a milfy type to reel in the men, a small town girl for those rural folks, Mayberry was real, yes? Fey won’t return my calls. Yo, Schmidt, know anyone that looks like her? Needs clothes and shoes too. Is the RNC credit card tapped out yet?” Is vetting this easy?

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    JK
    ~
    Republican Party–the party of immigrant bashing… Wonderfully fictitious hyperbole, Joe. How about the party of illegal immigrant bashing? Is there something wrong with seeking to have non-porous borders? Is it problematic to desire admission of immigrants via legally sanctioned entry points? Any nation on earth that does not enforce border security will ultimately be doomed.
    ~

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    palinatowel –
    .
    Don’t go besmirchin’ me own, mostly pristine Columbia by implyin’ it be filled wi’ th’ same sort o’ sh*t as kattest (an’ spongy, fer tha’ matter!) be so freely spewin’!
    .
    Speakin’ o’ which…
    .
    Spongy –
    .
    Go f yerself!
    .
    Arrgh!

  • spob

    ah PW, as charming as ever

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    neoexile –
    .
    Watch it, matey – their (GOP) rhetoric don’t be matchin’ yer kind portrayal.
    .
    arrgh.

  • ohiolib

    Joe the Unlicensed Plumber–or Joe, the victim of unscrupulous state officials (Dems)
    -
    I find it amazing how, whenever someone points out that the repub emperor isn’t wearing any clothes, the repubs scream about bias and persecution. This is even more bizarre, as it is usually within 3 sentences of a claim to be in the majority.
    _
    ..you mean kattest is serious? I always thought he was a liberal parodying the RW nutjobs.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    @neo,
    .
    You may try to differentiate racist anti-immigration sentiment from anti-illegal sentiment but it’s the same sentiment that drives the immigration laws in the first place.

  • spob

    whatever ohiolib, some ordinary guy responded to St, Barack’s question, and slimeball Dem public officials screwed him. They ought to have been put in jail for 10 years.

  • deconstructiva

    The way our economy has gone down the toilet, I suspect many illegal immigrants will be trying to sneak back over the wall. Will that please the Republicans? Is Sarah still watching the Russian border every morning in her towel on her porch (or not)?

  • spob

    Interesting how none of you bozos can debate the relative racial bona fides of Barack Obama and Sarah Palin . . . .
    .
    ha ha ha ha

  • ohiolib

    Umm..Neo. I think almost everyone is against illegal immigration. The problem is that the GOP rhetoric doesn’t do a good job of distinguishing between legal and illegal. And don’t take it too hard when Joe knocks the repubs. He does it almost every time he writes.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    PD
    ~
    Hold on there a sec. Are you implying that to oppose illegal immigration is inherently racist?

  • Matt

    Ironically, Sarah Palin’s “real Americans” are among the phoniest in this country. Palin herself tops that list…

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • kathy

    The “real Americans” by definition think the rest of us are not, and that’s the thing that binds them to their own. Most of them think the rest of us aren’t “real Christians” either, even if we profess to be, and we seem to be okay as women only if we also tote a gun. Many of them are scary, scary, people. The Mikas of the world mean something entirely different, I think, than Sarah Palin does by “real Americans.”

  • queencersei

    Hawaii, Alaska, big city, small town…it’s all the real America. Republicans need to understand that when you get elected to high office you are there to represent ALL the people. Not just the ones who voted for you.

  • kbanginmotown

    JK: Well put.
    .
    Another good take on the Palin/GOP situation by Tim Russo over at BloggerInterrupted.com

  • kathy

    BTW, Mark McKinnon has a v. insightful piece up on daily beast about Sarah:
    .
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-04/how-her-mind-works/?cid=hp:beastoriginalsR3

  • spob

    Is Rev. Wright a “real American”?

  • ohiolib

    I think PD was trying to argue that the RW hijacks legitimate arguments about immigration and turns them into anti-immigrant slogans. Is that right, PD?

  • spob

    queencersei, please explain how minimizing the assault on Justin Barker would give anyone confidence that Barack Obama is interested in representing all Americans

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    No, not inherently….
    .
    in practice OTOH…..
    .
    You never hear complaints about the pourous Canadian border….

  • queencersei

    Does the Alaska Independence Party represent “real Americans”?

  • spob

    yeah, in the libworld, opposing MS-13 is racist . . . .

  • http://nicewhitelady.blogspot.com/ joyomama

    Thank you, Joe. Mika called me a fake American this morning and I’ve been feeling like the Velveteen Rabbit ever since, just waiting to be loved.

  • spob

    Was that Sarah, queencersei? I thought spouses were verboten. Guys, ya gotta explain the rules.

  • kathy

    Shannyn moore is having a press conference in front of the Alaska Governor’s mansion 6pm EDT today. In her statement today Shannyn talked about SP “aborting her term” as governor. ouch.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    And for the record, I think the best way to deal with illegal immigration is proper enforcment of Employment law. Always look at incentives when trying to craft policy.

  • queencersei

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    To truly tackle vigorous immigration enforcement based on the respect of our national borders and the security of our society, both of which are benign, a political party will consequently pick up the racist contingency of American voters. It is an an unavoidable Pyrrhic victory. Because a particular portion of society harboring malevolent (racist) views supports an altruistic endeavor (border security) does not imply that the political leadership (GOP) of that endeavor ascribes to or condones said racism.

  • spob

    By the way, here’s a charming little quote from Rev. Wright, a guy that Barack and Michelle decided to expose their daughters to:
    .
    “Black women are being raped daily in Africa. One white girl from Alabama gets drunk at a graduation trip to Aruba, goes off and gives it up while in a foreign country and that stays in the news for months.”
    .
    Funny how the women’s rights groups never were all that concerned about the misogyny inherent in Wright’s quote.

  • spob

    queen, if she owns AIP, then Barack owns Bill Ayers . . . .

  • jake2008

    PD – There is a difference between anti-immigrant sentiment and anti-illegal immigrant sentiment. To believe otherwise is oversimplification of the type that Republicans have engaged in far too much over the past 10+ years. You are engaging in the same lack of subtlety your grasp of the issue that Palin engages in over nearly every issue she publicly discusses.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    PD
    ~
    The Canadian border does not constitute the same problems as does the Mexican border. There are not 11 million illegal Canadians in the US. There is not a violent drug trade streaming from moose land. Canada is not a violent, corrupt, cartel-driven society which has been spilling over into the US. Mexico, I am sad to say, is in third-world turmoil and poses significant threats to American security. Is that a racist conclusion?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    does not imply that the [..] GOP) of that endeavor ascribes to or condones said racism.
    .
    That would indeed be a solid point, except for the fact that the GOP tries to have it both ways by railing people against the immigrants while turning a blind eye to the people who hire them.

  • shepherdwong

    “But the fact is, America–Barack Obama’s America–is a different, more exhilarating, sophisticated and diverse place from the Reagan fantasy. Sarah Palin’s political future will be crippled by her inability to speak to that America, as will the Republican Party, so long as it scorns diversity and “cosmopolitan” sensibilities.
    .
    Here’s another fact (that you can’t talk about): Millions of Americans – let’s call them the Republican base – fervently believe in the American of Reagan’s hornswoggle and it is entirely possible that Palin is one of them. In other words, there are functionally insane, unshakably committed to all sorts of ridiculous ideas (too many to fit in this space) through right-wing indoctrination. Leaving aside the question of her own sanity for the moment, how can any Republican talk to the crazy base in terms they understand and respond to and not disqualify themselves to the (more-or-less) lucid majority of the public?
    .
    Second, the whole issue for Republicans goes a lot farther than rhetoric. As they have demonstrated repeatedly over the past months (and years), Republicans have no governing philosophy or policies. They run almost entirely on anti-governing philosophies and present empty white papers when it comes to offering serious policy proposals. You simply can’t solve any of the problems this country has developed as a direct result of the past thirty years of anti-governing philosophy by supplying more of the same and Republicans will never offer anything that fixes the problems caused by their corporate masters. There are only a dismal few Democrats who even dare.

  • tantef

    Kathy, Shannyn’s press confrence was yesterday. It was held in front of Palin’s office, not her mansion. There is a clip and lots of discussion over on TheMudflats.

  • ohiolib

    Isn’t electing a republican to government like hiring a carpenter who hates wood?

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    PD
    ~
    I believe it has been Democratic governors and mayors declaring their states/cities to be ‘immigrant sanctuaries’ whereby there are explicit orders to ignored federal immigration work laws. Businesses continue to hire undocumented workers and law enforcement does not interfere. Maybe you are right that the GOP turns a blind eye on occasion, but the Democratic leadership explicitly enables illegal immigration through these disgraceful violations of federal law.

  • deconstructiva

    Exiled – kudos on hijacking the thread, really. What’s your secret?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I think you have been misled.
    There are indeed cities that instruct their police to look the other way rather than act as border patrol agents so that immigrants needn’t be afraid to call the police when they need them, but I’m having difficulty believing that cities would actually encourage employers to ignore green-card ID laws.
    .
    Feel free to find a link that might prove me wrong.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    deconstructiva
    ~
    Whatever could you mean?
    ~
    Seriously, its simple. I am driven out of raw hatred of sensationalist partisanship and speculative reporting, coupled with my affinity for foreign affairs over domestic policy.
    I compliment this drive with reasoned and civil discourse which inevitably draws people in to discussions rather than exhortations based on political pejoratives.

  • http://nicewhitelady.blogspot.com/ joyomama

    Yeah, deconstructiva. I was thinking the same thing. I am assuming it’s an anytopicbutpalin move. Welcome to the crowd, by the way. I’ve enjoyed your posts.

  • rmrd

    spob, Ayers and Wright were part of the discussion during the election, Sarah Palin and the AIP were not.
    .
    Wright, who served in the military, is as much of a “Real American” as Pat Buchanan who did no military service . The big difference is that Buchanan can write columns praising the benefits of slavery for Blacks and the “honest” bias in Jim Crow, and still find an analyst spot on MSNBC and NBC. Wright gets heard only when he makes a controversial statement like the one in which he said the Jews were not going to let him talk to Obama.
    .
    Most voters do not equate Wright with Obama (see Nov 2008). Voters do connect Buchanan to Conservatism and a faction of the GOP.
    .
    So which bigot is getting a place at the political discussion table Buchanan or Wright?

  • kathy

    tantef – thanks for setting me straight about that. My speakers don’t work so I skipped right over the clip on mudflats this morning I guess.

  • square1

    Interesting how none of you bozos can debate the relative racial bona fides of Barack Obama and Sarah Palin . . . .
    .
    What’s to debate, Spob? Clearly a White governor from Alaska has a far more sophisticated view of race and society than Obama. What would Obama know about race? Clearly he lacks Palin’s “bona fides.” Isn’t that obvious? During construction, she could see a Mexican from her house.

  • deconstructiva

    joyomama, thanks! It’s fun here. But at least MJ isn’t the main topic. Even CNBC of all places is beecoming all MJ all the time. I won’t add to that, promise. Exiled, good points. KT’s new thread on McNamara is interesting history deconstruction. And it’s still serious for now. I wonder what both of your takes would be…

  • gysgt213

    “I believe it has been Democratic governors and mayors declaring their states/cities to be ‘immigrant sanctuaries’ whereby there are explicit orders to ignored federal immigration work laws”
    .
    The federal government has the authority over immigration and enforcement. Federal law does not require states and local police to enforce immigration laws.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    There used to be regular here who constantly posited that the only thing the conservative movement stands for is maintaining WASP(or White Bread) hegemony in culture and governance. We’ve just witnessed virtually every purported value and position held dear by the GOP thrown over to accommodate whatever White Bread Republican politician finds him/herself in trouble. Sanctity of marriage, fiscal responsibility, support for the troops, being strongly against teenage pregnancy(note the change in tone when the pregnant teenager is poor and black/brown)….you name it, buy why blather on when Kim Hendren, minority leader of the Arkansas state Senate sums up the conservative philosophy so succinctly:


    “At the meeting I was attempting to explain that unlike Sen. Schumer, I believe in traditional values, like we used to see on ‘The Andy Griffith Show, I made the mistake of referring to Sen. Schumer as ‘that Jew’ and I should not have put it that way as this took away from what I was trying to say.”

    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/05/arkansas-gop-senate-candidate-apologizes-for-calling-schumer-that-jew.php

  • textee

    Yes, indeed. Joel Klein is such a leftist loon that he thinks that “real America” is represented by the base of the Democrat party, to wit: the pagans, the atheists, the Marxists, the socialists, the tree huggers, the earth worshippers, the flag burners, the draft dodgers, the feminists (hahahahahahahaha!), the race baiters, the race hustlers, the al Qaeda lobby and the fundamentalist homosexualists. Birds of a feather ….

  • sy2d

    Mika B. covered politics for CBS; knows real America?!?!?

  • FlownOver

    cincy:
    .
    Add to that the irony that both Andy and Opie endorsed Obama, with both high visibility and high principle.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Yeah but the crackers, er ‘real Americans’ will always have Gomer. To bad he never met that special lady.

  • trifecta55

    I have decided. To be a real American, you have to be from one of the 13 original colonies like NY or Pennsylvania. I never understood how if you were Kansas, that meant you were keeping it more real.

  • FlownOver

    Yippee! Textee brings the big cray-zee!.
    .
    Improbability Factor at one to one. Normality is restored.

  • FlownOver

    trifecta –
    .
    Watch it.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “I believe it has been Democratic governors and mayors declaring their states/cities to be ‘immigrant sanctuaries’ whereby there are explicit orders to ignored federal immigration work laws”
    .
    “I believe” Good enough for today’s republicans. That combines with their feelings to form what passes as serious policy.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    To be clear, WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants) do not constitute the whole of white America. Nor, does the conservative movement purport to represent WASP ideals. To paint a caricature of conservatives as wholly bonded to this presumption of real Americans vs unreal Americans is more partisan baiting to encourage society to be offended that conservatives view themselves as more American. This is absurd and untrue. The statements of one woman’s fervent supporters in in no way indicative of a conservative trend.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    PNNTO
    ~
    Why is it that you always come out of left field with these silly little sayings about Republicans and where they derive their views? Would you be so kind as to illustrate how my above comment was not more than a feeling? Can you, perhaps, point me towards Republican sanctuary cities?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Neo,
    Feel free to try to walk away from the problem. It’s commendable that you want to. But it’s staring you in the face:
    .
    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_07/018955.php

  • deconstructiva

    After pondering, I wonder if Palin and friends ever considered that “real Americans” might include those Sioux, Cherokee, and Inuit that have been here before US – or not? Then again, posts from mudflats and Shannyn Moore reveal that Sarah does NOT always have great relations with rural AK (food, heating, flood relief, lack of). And she claims to love small towns? Something’s awry here.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    PD
    ~
    As goes Mika, so goes the nation?

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Look you people can throw whatever quotes you want about citing people claiming to be more American than others. That’s your prerogative. However, I am telling you that what you have heard and read is not an indication of how most conservatives see themselves. I certainly do not.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks
  • ohiolib

    That’s your prerogative. However, I am telling you that what you have heard and read is not an indication of how most conservatives see themselves. I certainly do not.
    -
    That may be true. You may not see yourself as being more American than others. However, when the republican VP candidate speaks about “Real Americans”, then it’s safe to say that the republican party, at the very least, does consider itself to be more American than non-republican Americans.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Neo how can I be more clear? You make a specific allegation but offer no link or proof.
    You believe it.
    .
    Over your couple of months here you have made many posts but they boil down to feelings, beliefs, and argument by autobiography.
    .
    Same as Rusty, Spob, and Textee but with more manners.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    PD
    ~
    That’s a laughable effort. Does the number of Google hits on any particular search query correspond to reality, PD? Are we to assume that everything posted online equates to the truth? If so…
    .
    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=Americans+are+assholes&aq=f&oq&fp=dMlfxuRvj0I

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    not an indication of how most conservatives see themselves
    .
    Many conservatives probably wouldn’t be caught dead at a Palin rally or a tea party. But rest assured that the people who have the energy to do so are not shy about asserting that there’s such a thing as ‘real Americans’…or worse.
    .

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks
  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    PNNTO
    ~
    Could you provide any links illustrating the falsity of my view that sanctuary cities, which buck federal law, are promoted by Democratic politicians?
    ~
    I am not suggesting that the Democratic leadership unequivocally supports these measures, but the cities/states that do market themselves as sanctuary havens for illegal immigrants are certainly not GOP strongholds.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Google works much better if you actually read the results…..

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    PNNTO
    ~
    And while you and I are clearly on opposite ends of the domestic policy spectrum, perhaps you should visit the threads “How Diplomacy Works” or “Obama and the Russian Bear” to gain a more comprehensive view of my political philosophy.
    ~
    PD, what was your point by posting a link to a google query on ‘real Americans’ showing numerous hits? Was there a specific one you wished me to read? If so, you should be more clear. If not, your attempt was merely to indicate that there is a real vs fake American debate, in which case your attempt was laughable in that the existence of such an ongoing debate among fringe elements is in no way indicative of the veracity of the debate.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    I won’t pretend to paint a broad brush and say conservtives or the GOP is racist. Yet if you look at racists in this country I feel more than comfortable saying that the Republican party holds a much higher percentage of them than does the Democratic party as does the conservative movement. And just when you thought the young Republicans might go a different direction you see something like this….
    .
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-06/new-gop-racist-headache/
    .
    Now the illegal immigration issue itself isn’t inherently racist, but its the way its used as a wedge issue by Republicans to get votes that is inherently racist. Its the new version of the Southern Strategy now meant to be the Southwestern Strategy. It is what it is.

  • shepherdwong

    “…I am telling you that what you have heard and read is not an indication of how most conservatives see themselves.”
    .
    My god, I always knew “conservatives” lied through their teeth about liberals, now you’re telling us we can’t even believe what they say about themselves. Go figure.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    You can believe those who claim they are more American. What you cannot do, or should not do I suppose, is equate all conservatives with these minority superiority complexes.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Has there ever been a statement by a Democratic politician to which you did not ascribe? Would you consider yourself beholden to that position simply because a Democratic leader said “liberals are this…”?

  • spob
  • shepherdwong

    @Exiled: please don’t parade around here as a non-partisan pseudo-intellectual and then try to assert that it isn’t a primary pillar of “conservative” orthodoxy that conservatives are better Americans than everyone else. If you still have any credibility here, it’s going fast.

  • square1

    Unfortunately, Spob, Rev. Wright lived most of his life in an America that said that no matter what he did, even performing exemplary service in the military — including literally performing medical care to keep the President of the United States alive — was enough to make him a first class citizen in his own country. IOW, Rev. Wright was subjected to an ugliness that neither you nor 99% of the GOP will ever have to live through (and clearly cannot empathize with). And like many people who have been consistently treated in an ugly fashion, Rev. Wright himself has grown to hold some ugly views.
    .
    As sgw says, it is too much to say the GOP is entirely racist, although they largely provide a haven for those who are.
    .
    What can be said though, is that the GOP is actually gleeful in refusing to identify with anyone other than whites. Although the GOP has certainly backed policies that disproportionally disfavor african-americans, I believe it is the attitude of Republicans, far more than their policies, which have told african-americans “not welcome here.” It is a matter of emphasis and tone.
    .
    Ironically, Republicans LOVE to play identity politics and play the victim card. Republicans just LOVE to find some poor white guy who has gotten a raw deal and champion his cause. The Ricci case is a perfect example.
    .
    Now it is possible to believe that the SCOTUS’ recent decision in Ricci was correct and not be a racist. But the GOP has systematically attacked discrimination claims for years. We’ve all seen it. They try to repeal legislation. They fight for reduced enforcement. They support dismissing cases on summary judgment. They email each other and roll their eyes at the ABSURDITY of discrimination claims that are made “Next our office won’t be allowed to stock white printer paper! LOLZ!!!!!”
    .
    But as soon as some White men bring a claim, Republicans want the law pushed as far as possible in order to right the injustice. Does anybody believe that Republicans would be arguing that a city that tries to comply with the law — a federal anti-discrimination statute — could be considered to be racially discriminating unless the plaintiffs were white?
    .
    People notice this stuff. They notice when the GOP ignores/forgives/supports the Trent Lotts and then demonizes the Rev. Wright. I’m not saying Wright was entirely correct, but a lack of perspective by Republicans speaks volumes.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Shep
    ~
    Both parties believe they are better Americans than the other. If not, then they wouldn’t hold their own views in such high esteem while denigrating the opposition’s as bad for America. There is quite a difference between believing yourself to be more concerned with America’s well-being than the opposition and believing that you are a real American as opposed to the other side. The GOP does not rely on any such pillar that Republicans are more American the Democrats.

  • spob

    So square1, Wright’s ugliness towards Natalee Holloway is to be excused–what did she ever do to him? And where are all the feminists?
    .
    “They notice when the GOP ignores/forgives/supports the Trent Lotts and then demonizes the Rev. Wright.”
    .
    Lott was smacked when he made his statement about Strom.

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    Coming late to this party, but…
    .
    Exiled said: To be clear, WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants) do not constitute the whole of white America. Nor, does the conservative movement purport to represent WASP ideals. To paint a caricature of conservatives as wholly bonded to this presumption of real Americans vs unreal Americans is more partisan baiting to encourage society to be offended that conservatives view themselves as more American. This is absurd and untrue. The statements of one woman’s fervent supporters in in no way indicative of a conservative trend.
    .
    Exiled, I see where you are coming from in terms of decrying stereotypes and caricatures. But, in all seriousness, look to the purported leaders of the conservative movement. The WASP ideal may not, in reality, portray all of white America, but they sure do constitute a vast majority of the power base in America. Take a look at all the presidents up until Barack Obama, for one.
    .
    The intellectual conservative movement in the tradition of William F. Buckley, Jr.–which I think you, Exiled, would at least feel a kinship toward–is not the same conservative movement playing out on FOX News and wrapping themselves in the flag and Sarah Palin. But this IS the dominant conservative movement of the day, even if it doesn’t include, or represent, a numerical majority of people who consider themselves “conservatives.” Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh, Palin, are all in the same camp. It’s a divisive, dismissive camp, and uses false reasoning and at times quite ugly tactics to score points. It also garners the most press coverage, which is, I think, in its interests, so this is why the WASP caricature has so much power and such a hold on the popular imagination–because this is the very caricature that is being promoted by these folks.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Shakespeare
    ~
    I absolutely agree that WASP leadership dominates American politics and the power structure. However, it dominates both parties, Republican and Democratic. Thus, it is not an indictment of conservatism, but of American society.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    neoexile –
    .
    Alri’ laddie – yer baitin’ an’ dancin’, an’ twistin’ – o’ wha’ both yerself an’ others be sayin’ – t’day be landin’ ye square back in th’ spongy contingent ag’in!
    .
    I hope ye be satisfied wi’ yerself!
    .
    Arrgh!

  • darrelb

    More blather from America’s idiot sevant. We all know what a real American is don’t we Joe? He believes he smarter than everyone else because he hob-nobs with the northeastern elites. He went to an Ivy League school (or envies those who did), he believes the world is ending due to mankind, he hates achievers, he hates the military, he wants someone else to pay taxes, he vacations at Martha’s Vineyard, he flies in private jets and rides in limousines yet sneers at the goobers in their SUVs, he demands everyone else live their life the way he lives his, he is so enlightened that he fully understands the origins of man, he believes in abortion even for little girls without their parent’s knowledge, he devotes his life to “public service” (telling other people what to do), he believes all good flows from government and all evil flows from private enterprise (greed to him), and finally, he hates. Oh does he ever hate! Welcome to Joe Klein’s America.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Pirate
    ~
    How so? I desperately want to please you, so please point out where I went astray. Was in my analysis that Palin doesn’t represent all of conservatism? Was in where I noted that the real vs fake America debate is carried out on the fringes? Was is where I suggested opposition to illegal immigration does not imply racism? Please instruct me on how to carry out a discussion in which I do not upset your delicate sensitivities.

  • maurice2u

    Alright Neo, since you keep throwing the bait out there, I’ll bite.
    .
    What pillar “does” the GOP rely upon then? I mean both in statement and action. It seems that all the ones they used to stand far have fallen by the way side, and while the Democrats are not necessarily any better in action, their motivations and rhetoric do not seem to paint them into so harsh a corner.
    .
    To illustrate for sake of argument, I will call the great Buchanan of Minnesota a clear symbol of the right’s irrational and proud proponents of the “us vs. them” mentality. This manifests itself in many ways, one of which is her use of the “real Americans” term on more than one occasion. For the not in office counterpart, there is of course always Rush.
    .
    Now on the Democratic side, who would be their in and out of government equivalents. And I don’t mean their policies are the opposite, I mean fully irrational but on the opposite side. It just doesn’t seem to balance.
    .
    I mean, if you are what I would call a rational Republican (and we certainly could use some), then who do you count as the relevant standard bearers of your party and/or principles? McCain I gave some credibility to before the last election, but now who do you fall back to? Powell?

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    *Excuse the above typos. “Was it in…” “Was it where…”

  • ohiolib

    The GOP does not rely on any such pillar that Republicans are more American the Democrats
    -
    To the contrary:
    Palin, R VP talks about liking “pro-American” parts of the country at a fundraiser
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/17/palin-clarifies-what-part_n_135641.html

    Michelle Bachmann, R, says she is concerned that Obama, D, may have anti-American views
    http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/22/bachmann-anti-american-3/

    Ann Coulter, R, writes a book about liberals and calls it Treason: Liberal treachery from the Cold war to the War on Terror
    http://www.amazon.com/Treason-Liberal-Treachery-Cold-Terrorism/dp/1400050308
    McCain’s slogan, country first, implied that others wouldn’t put their country first
    -
    Is this enough? I could go on, honestly, but I think this makes a good start and proves my point.

  • maurice2u

    Neo wrote: “Both parties believe they are better Americans than the other. If not, then they wouldn’t hold their own views in such high esteem while denigrating the opposition’s as bad for America.”
    .
    I cannot recall any incident in recent history of Democratic office holders using rhetoric along the lines of who is and is not “real America”, but I can surely find several Republican cases w/ a very short Google search.
    .
    Isn’t modern technology grand?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Exile
    .
    Would you say that a Vice Presidential candidate of either major party is considered the “fringe”? Because it was Sarah Palin who started the “real” America bullsh*t last fall. So I don’t see how you can credibly say it is being debated on the fringes because for one there is only one party that has articulated a claim to “real” America and for two that position was put forth by the potential second in command on the Republican ticket just last year. To not acknowledge this is a big disengenuous of you, no? I can understand your not wanting to have that argument associated with you or whichever party you normally vote with, but the facts are the facts.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Maurice
    ~
    My dearly departed Chuck Hagel who never took a dime of AIPAC’s money. Sen. Richard Lugar, who was highly critical of Bush foreign policy and is considerably more receptive of Obama initiatives than many of his GOP peers. Colin Powell, for sure, as well as Rice, Snowe and Collins. Pat Buchanan whose advocacy for a more balanced US policy towards the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is lost in the daily partisan sniping. Former Rep. Paul Findley, founder of the Council for the National Interest, the counterpart to AIPAC. These are the names that come directly to mind. Although there are many more, as well.

  • gysgt213

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Glad to see I stirred the pot, and along comes darrelb to prove my point.

    “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”
    -Shakespeare

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Ohiolib
    ~
    I said both sides believe themselves to be better Americans, as in advocating more sound policies that will benefit America. The ‘real’ American claim has been suggested by several GOPers, sure, but is this a GOP/conservative view point? I think not.

  • juniusredivivus

    Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo) Says:
    Monday, July 6, 2009 at 6:48 pm
    Pirate
    ~
    How so? I desperately want to please you, so please point out where I went astray.

    .
    Pirate Wench, I salute you. You’ve created a perfectly good submissive out of a GP troll. My hat is off to you, madam!

  • maurice2u

    Of all those you listed, absolutely none of them claim leadership of the Republican party. And as you pointed out, many tend to be more “like Obama” than like their own party’s membership.
    .
    Again, what are the principles Republicans rely upon, and who are the leaders carrying those principles in an rational, coherent manner as such as to provide the American public with a clear choice?

  • ohiolib

    Actually, I think it is a GOP view. A sitting senator and a former VP candidate of that party both used terms like un-American or real America. Their presidential candidate implied that his opponents (ie, dems) weren’t patriotic. I’m afraid that yes, it is a GOP view. It’s not particularly conservative, but since the R party isn’t really conservative anymore, that would make sense.

  • maurice2u

    This is the last on this, but I just have to note that how do you present an individual for the post of Vice President, have that person repeatedly tout the “real vs. not-real America”, and then say they do not represent the GOP point of view?
    .
    You cannot have it both ways. For better or for worse, when you select someone to potentially hold the highest office in the country as the representative of your party, then the things they say/do (good or bad) are “representative of your party”.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    maurice
    ~
    My party is in a state of disarray. The visible leadership of the GOP is not one I readily identify with. The GOP members I stand behind, those who I mentioned above, are not the vocal voices of Republicanism that they should be, unfortunately, instead they quietly go about their duties. However, the conservative ideals to which I ascribe to are represented more by the GOP than by the Democratic party. I therefore await the conservative resurgence in the coming years. For now, I will need to accept the ridicule I endure by the lack of rational leadership within the GOP.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    neoexile –
    .
    Fer starters, y emi’ be admittin’ tha’ th’ “real American” divisiveness were an’ are bein’ put for’ard by members o’ th’ Republican Party. Ye weren’t seein th’ Democratic candidates fer President ‘r any other national office that I were knowin’ ’bout employin’ th’ “real American” wedge. Th’ Republican Party were doin’ it early, often, an’ loud. Admit it. Those were not fringe elements, as ye be callin’ ‘em – those were th’ official candidates o’ th’ Republican Party.
    .
    Then, ye mi’ be namin’ th’ current standard bearers who DO be representin’ th’ conservative movement. Who be they? Whar be they? Wha’ be they sayin’ when th’ usual racist-tinged fear-mongerin’ be comin’ down th’ pike? Which high-profile representative o’ th’ Conservatives stepped up an’ said tha’ wha’ Sarah Palin said yesterday, an’ wha’ she, Michelle Bachman, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, an’ th’ whole host o’ high-profile Conservative voices be sayin regardin’ “real Americans” vile contemptable an’ not repressentative o’ th’ Conservative movement?
    .
    Then, ye mi’ be admittin’ tha’ silence fr’m Conservatives on th’ issues o’ “real Americans” an’ th’ racist message bein’ put out in their name be complicit, pure an’ simple.
    .
    If ye want t’ be bemoanin’ th’ fact tha’ conservatives be so misunderstood an’ ill-served, ye need t’ be pointin’ out who in th’ Conservative leadership be standin’ up fer wha’ be ri’ an’ callin on those perpetratin’ th’ lies t’ be ceasin’ an’ desistin’.
    .
    Instead o’ ye be knowin, playin yer games an’ wrappin’ yerself in yer blusterin’ bag o’ semantic tricks when ye be called on yer inconsistencies.
    .
    Thar be some startin’ points, ye slimy gelatinous sea squirt!
    .
    YARR!

  • ohiolib

    Honestly, Exiled, you would be better off considering yourself a conservative independent or libertarian. I am more liberal than about 80% of America, and I consider myself a liberal independent. Why? Two main reasons. First, I break with the democratic party on several issues, such as free trade (I almost always support, if not unconditionally) , gun rights (I consider myself centrist), and gay rights (where I am at the far left of the spectrum). And secondly, I think the democratic party is still corrupt, hypocritical at times, and their leadership is focused on power rather than service. Thus, I choose not to identify with the democratic party. considering the state of the GOP, I think you would be better off cutting them loose, especially since the religious fanatics are emerging as the most coherent and active, but not necessarily largest, wing of the current GOP. And so long as you identify with the GOP, it will be assumed, unless you specifically state otherwise, that their views reflect yours.

  • jcapan

    Regardless of whether there are some sane conservatives in America (or in the Swamp), the fact remains that the perception of the GOP circa ’09 “is what it is” (& SG as I age, I seem to say that more and more). No one can make a compelling argument that the sane or moderate wings of the party are in control of any of its parts, from congress to the RNC to its media machine.
    ~
    The question going FWD for many moderate republicans is whether the GOP (as it currently exists, not in theory or in its “halcyon days”) has left them behind. My question to such moderates is: do they feel more closely aligned to a centrist like Obama or a party whose dominant base finds SP or Huck qualified for the presidency? Hint: if you think Obama is a socialist, you are not a moderate.

  • ohiolib

    Ok Piratewench, I think that’s enough name-calling at Exiled. Unlike spob, I think we could reform Exiled, or at least disillusion him of some of the GOP bumper sticker policies. I for one can agree to disagree; see our argument under the Russian Bear thread. I also think that resorting to name-calling is a sign of shallowness and unwillingness to tolerate dissent-exactly what I would expect from the GOP. You are welcome to your views, but I think you should hold your fire here.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Herein lies the problem, ohio. The two-party system doesn’t allow for me to break from one or the other political powerhouses without losing my voice altogether. Primaries, generally, reject the independents and no viable third party exists. I therefore remain a Republican in the hopes that the GOP platform is reformed in a manner consistent with conservatism. I did, however, vote for Bob Barr in the presidential elections, to no avail, of course. I generally respect the libertarian viewpoint, although I find it a bit out of touch with my general mindset at times. Its a bloody political quagmire I find myself in.

  • jcapan

    “However, the conservative ideals to which I ascribe to are represented more by the GOP than by the Democratic party.”
    ~
    Question answered. So then the question for my fellow Swampcritters would be, though a far more civil and intelligent voice, is your constant engagement with a McCain-Palin voter over an Obama-Biden voter any more productive than some of our more trollish figures in play here?
    ~
    Again, neither group is going to change–every election day they’re still going with a straight GOP ticket. I know I’m naive but I always come back to the same conclusion, particularly now that we’re holding all the aces as a party–the debate should be between the centrists dominating the Dem party (those nearly as a cozy with the corp’s as the GOP) and progressives. Every ounce of energy wasted on GOP voters, particularly when the party is in the Alaskan wilderness, every ounce of energy spent debating, negating, imploring or insulting is energy that should be spent bringing pressure to bear on centrist dems to do the people’s business.
    ~
    None of this is about Neo. Trees < Forest

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Ohio
    ~
    Its ok, its just a lovers’ tiff between pirate and I.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    “Obama Bin Lauden [sic] is the new terrorist… Muslim is on there side [sic]… need to take this country back from all of these mad coons… and illegals.”

    “You tell em Eric! lol.
    -Audra Shay, vice chairman of the Young Republicans
    ——————————-

    “The head of the Hillsborough GOP, David Storck, distributed an email from a Republican Party volunteer saying the voters are a threat. That’s because, as the volunteer says in the email, he sees “car loads of black Obama supporters coming from the inner city to cast their votes for Obama.”
    http://www.wtsp.com/news/mostpop/story.aspx?storyid=93204&provider=top?

    ———————————-

    “The chairman of Tennessee’s Democratic Party wants a Republican legislative aide fired for sending out a “reprehensible” e-mail depicting President Obama as two cartoonish white eyes peering from a black background.”
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/16/tennessee.email/

    .

    ‘Sometime last week, Diann Jones, Vice Chairman of the Collin County Republican Party, sent an email to local Republican clubs requesting support against a state bill that would impose a $50 tax on guns. Sadly, Ms. Jones chose to close the email with the following racist statement: “Another terrific idea from the black house and its minions.”’
    badgals-radio.com/?p=2614
    .

    ‘Over the weekend, a GOP official in S. Carolina posted a comment to Facebook comparing Michelle Obama to an escaped gorilla.’
    thinkprogress.org/2009/06/15/racist-image-eyes/

    .

    ‘I’m confused

    How can 2,000,000 blacks get into Washington, DC in 1 day in sub zero temps when 200,000 couldn’t get out of New Orleans in 85 degree temps with four days notice? ‘
    -Florida State committeewoman Carol Carter
    blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/2009/02/hillsborough-go.html

    .

    ‘For example, during the election last year, Diane Fedele, the president of Chaffey Community Republican Women Federated in inland Riverside County, sent an email blast that contained a graphic showing “Obama Bucks,” which depicted Barack Obama’s face on a food stamps certificate, along with a bucket of fried chicken, ribs, Kool-Aid and a slice of watermelon.’
    http://www.pensitoreview.com/2009/02/26/oc-gop-mayor-caught-sending-racist-email-about-obama/

    .

    ‘Dean Grose, the Republican mayor of Los Alamitos in Orange County is under fire for sending an email that shows the White House lawn planted with watermelons, with the headline, “No Easter egg hunt this year”’
    http://www.pensitoreview.com/2009/02/26/oc-gop-mayor-caught-sending-racist-email-about-obama/

    .

    ‘I just hear that Obama is going to impose a 40% tax on aspirin because it’s white and it works’
    -South Carolina GOP activist, Rusty DePass

    .

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    JC
    ~
    So then the question for my fellow Swampcritters would be, though a far more civil and intelligent voice, is your constant engagement with a McCain-Palin voter over an Obama-Biden voter any more productive than some of our more trollish figures in play here?
    …Also known as a Bob Barr voter.
    None of this is about Neo. Trees < Forest
    …That really hurts, JC. I was looking forward to our next intelligent discourse in which you lovingly call me a homophobe. Gone are the days of our engagement, I see. What a pity. So are you no longer the bane of my cyber existence?
    ~

  • yutsano

    My party is in a state of disarray. The visible leadership of the GOP is not one I readily identify with. The GOP members I stand behind, those who I mentioned above, are not the vocal voices of Republicanism that they should be, unfortunately, instead they quietly go about their duties. However, the conservative ideals to which I ascribe to are represented more by the GOP than by the Democratic party. I therefore await the conservative resurgence in the coming years. For now, I will need to accept the ridicule I endure by the lack of rational leadership within the GOP.
    -
    Neo, has it occured to you the problem is not you, it’s the party? You should look at Nate Silver’s explanation of the Republican party death spiral http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/01/republican-death-spiral.html and see about where you lie in the grand sceme of the Republican party base. I have seen some statements from you that would be considered sheer Republican heresy to the base, and your list includes several moderates and one whackjob (Buchanan). Snowe and Collins have not exactly endeared themselves with the base as of late, and Lugar I’m certain feels more and more alienated as the GOP seeks out its pure form. At some point you have to admit that the relationship is not working and it’s time to move on. If that means founding a new party, so be it. There is something wrong, and I think you see it. It’s just a matter of if you’re content to wait out the inevitable Democratic overreach or if you feel the urge to get more active now and form an opposition that is both effective and sustainable.

  • 53_3

    I’m not sure who stands where on this, but I’ve watched the GOP for nearly 40 years, and I would say that conservatism in the party has been subverted by those who wish to promote racial hatred.
    .
    In this regard, there is no equivalence whatsoever. This is a GOP symptom, though until Obama came up through the ranks, those Dems who harbored a practiced ignorance about race were essentially left undisturbed.
    .
    The GOP is directly responsible for the continued existence of the ‘racial divide’ well beyond it’s natural shelf life.
    .
    I don’t think conservatism itself requires any of the racial baggage that has been attached to it, but for the most part, the most vocal in the GOP seem to feel that the racial baggage is part of the mix.
    .
    There is no question that at the grassroots and dogwhistle level, the GOP campaigned on this platform, and as an organization, deserves every bit of the ridicule it has received.

  • 53_3

    What I see is a very odd dichotomy in which I see even conservative neighbors, who are clearly not racist, believe strongly everything someone like Rush Limbaugh says, and completely overlooks the racist and hateful commentary as if it never happened.
    .
    The dichotomy I point to is a long standing one. They are singularly unable to look at such people like they would if a stranger they had just freshly met espoused the same hatred.
    .
    I emphasize this because it constitutes a suspension of the social norms which we all practice and widely use in an attempt to discern the character of those we don’t know.

  • 53_3

    In adding one more thing, the “real America” commentary during the campaign was essentially dogwhistle racism. There was no question whatsoever what was meant by the term.
    .
    If there is any doubt that any of the above is true, I think that more than enough links, though I really don’t want to go through that again.
    .
    On this issue, like I said, there is no equivalence between the two parties. None whatsoever.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    Cincy! Glad to see you, again.

    By a man’s actions will he be known. Repugs stand for hate, fear, and greed. They’ve made this patently obvious. If Repugs have other values to which they subscribe, they’ve done a comparatively p!ss-poor job of making it known. If there’s a difference between Repugs and conservatives, they aren’t working up a sweat making that known, either.

    And, as predictable as you are, neo, you invoke your hatred toward Israelis, again, on a topic that has nothing to do with them. I didn’t mention this on the other thread – I do actually try to “have a life” sometimes – but visiting those locales you did smacks of Palin’s, “I can see Russia from here, so I’m an expert on foreign policy.” As I recall, that wasn’t a winning strategy for her.

    But, you just go right on hating: as a Repug, you can’t help it.

  • shepherdwong

    “The GOP does not rely on any such pillar that Republicans are more American the Democrats.”
    .
    Well, you took the bait big time there. Not only does the “conservative”/GOP rhetoric claim that they’re more American, they often suggest that liberals and Democrats aren’t real Americans at all (you must be getting amnesia without your morning Rush). What name are you going to use next time you embarrass yourself here?

  • freeinpa

    Love to listen to the dumocrats talking about Republican haters when you have Obermann, Matthewws, Begala, Dowd and a countless cast of arrogant blowhards that has an argument against any conservative just a blast of name calling. I guess it proves the old adage (look it up) Liberalism is a mental disorder

  • 53_3

    Yo! Cincy!
    .
    Yer baaaaaack!

  • jcapan

    “Neo, has it occured to you the problem is not you, it’s the party?”
    ~
    Of course not Yuts–at his age, self-absorption is all he’s got. I get that folks are amazed that he can roll over and do tricks, but ultimately this is a bloke who:
    ~
    1. Does not admit that global warming is caused by man
    2. Does not advocate equal rights for homosexuals
    3. Does not see waterboarding as torture
    ~
    The rhetoric might sound nicer, but put shellac on a turd and….
    ~
    In the end, the gang of 5 who make the Swamp posts are bad enough. B/C of scandal du jour, b/c of constant conservative engagement, my own enthusiasm about posting here is ebbing mightily of late. I look at the threads every morning but….

  • 53_3

    “Love to listen to the dumocrats talking about Republican haters when you have Obermann, Matthewws, Begala, Dowd and a countless cast of arrogant blowhards that has an argument against any conservative just a blast of name calling.”
    .
    freeinpa:
    .
    I assume this means ‘free in Pennsylvania’.
    .
    Ok, so far, a lot of rhetoric from you. Now, put your money where your mouth is:
    .
    Post here any racist or hateful commentary any of those on that list have espoused! I want to see just what it is you think is equivalent!

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    MSN
    ~
    To the contrary, while living in Alaska in no way informs one’s decisions on Russia, my visit to Gaza, Israel, West Bank and Jordan exponentially increased my awareness of the reality of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Furthermore, my participation in an Israeli funded program gave me access to members of Mossad, Shin Bet, IDF, and members of Knesset whereby I saw firsthand their propagandizing ways.
    ~
    The only point you made that comes close to reality is my hatred of Israel. This is fairly accurate, although I would clarify it as hatred of the Israeli government. I generally use AIPAC funding or lack thereof as a standard for judging American politicians. The single most important issue to me is the situation in Palestine, it dominates my discourse and it affects me daily. Once you visit yourself you can never walk away unscathed by the horrors you see; never again will you tolerate the blatant lies and propaganda stemming from Israeli PR spins, nor will you have the stomach to stand behind those US politicians who act as enablers for these ongoing crimes against humanity.

  • freeinpa

    jcapan The debate over global warming is not over because libs said it was or maybe there would be no need for the EPA to stifle a report
    No true conservative is against equal rights for homosexuals- just special rights which is whatremains at the core of these laws “protecting” gays and finally conservatives would see waterboarding as torture as soon as liberals see abortion as murder

  • 53_3

    I won’t go into it too much because we’ve been here before, but this:
    .
    “The debate over global warming is not over because libs said it was or maybe there would be no need for the EPA to stifle a report”
    .
    Here is the nail in that coffin, freeinpa:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_controversy

  • 53_3

    “No true conservative is against equal rights for homosexuals- just special rights which is whatremains at the core of these laws “protecting” gays”
    .
    The “gay” version of Southern Strategy won’t work freeinpa. You should realize that by now…

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    JC
    ~
    I expected more from you than petulant lies.
    ~
    1) I never said anything of the sort with reference to global warming. In fact I said I have not reached any conclusion on the matter and would like to see more tolerance of open scientific discourse of the matter rather than the perpetual attempts to discredit or silence those who do not adhere to the ‘consensus theory.’
    ~
    2) I have never advocated equal rights violations against homosexuals. I supported, and still support, equal benefits in same-sex unions, however with the definition of marriage being limited to man and woman.
    ~
    3) As for waterboarding, I recognized it as wholly ineffective and disturbing. However, I am not prepared to suggest that it is torture in the classical sense of the term, although under the increasing sense of hypersensitivity, it is construed as such.

  • freeinpa

    “The real leader of the Republican Party in America today is a corpulent drug addict with an AM radio talk show, Rush Limbaugh.”
    Begala
    Chris Matthews “Dick Cheney The Troll Under The Bridge”
    Olbermann, who has a history of blaming conservatives like Glenn Beck and Bill O’Reilly for violent acts by extremists, accused the “far right” of “enabling” recent murders, and then claimed not to have ever heard the term “neocons” associated with a particular “religious or ethnic group.” He went on to suggest that the word “neocon” may really be code for “belligerence, pig headedness, stupidity, wasteful, indifference to human life,” and “paranoid.”

  • 53_3

    Exiled, ‘open scientific discourse’ has, is, and will take place. The outcome is simply not in your favor, and I have supplied more than enough evidence to make my point.
    .
    An open mind is better than a closed one, and that’s good.
    .
    However, as a scientist, and, obviously, like a majority of other scientists I believe, based on the evaluation and debate in the papers presented in the scientific community that global warming is not only real, but is man made.
    .
    There really is not any lack of tolerance in the scientific community. There are actually those who believe that 65 MYa there was a ‘nerf’ impact at Chicxulub, contrary to consensus, but even so, they are still widely respected scientists, who are not subjected to intolerance at all.

  • freeinpa

    Seriously Wikipedia as a source Ypour killin gme

  • freeinpa

    53_3 your arguments are as deep as a mud puddle and nearly s clear. Repeating things don’t make them so which seems to be libs SOP fact checking is for other folks

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    neo: c’mon, you’re clearly not stupid. If you can’t spell it out, it’s “MNG,” at least. And I shouldn’t have said anything. Now the whole thread will be nothing but anti-Israel from here out. Sorry, folks…

    freeper: let’s waterboard you a few times, and see how you like it. It’s just like taking a bath, right? Though, if that were the case, who could possibly find it effective at throttling a confession out of someone? Personally, I like splashing around in water – if that’s all it is – so I doubt they’d be able to coerce anything from me.

    In spite of your pre-conceived generalizations, not all of us are extreme supporters of abortion. Personally, I’d rather there were no need for it, but it’s not my body, not my call. I’ll be darned if I take away that call from someone else. However, couples that are careless and then find abortion an “easy out” for their “problem” should be beat in public.

  • freeinpa

    PS Al Gores “Inconvenient Truth” is no an acceptable defense of global warming just ask the British legal system.

    If Global Warming is man-made and the primary cause is CO2 shouldn’t the libs if they firmly believe it stop breathin gto protect the planet?

  • 53_3

    ““The real leader of the Republican Party in America today is a corpulent drug addict with an AM radio talk show, Rush Limbaugh.”
    Begala”

    .
    Um, you didn’t hear Rush when he claimed that title a few months ago? Are you saying he isn’t fat? And on the addiction, he certainly was addicted to oxycontin, wasn’t he?
    .
    Strike one. Truthful. All.
    .
    “Chris Matthews “Dick Cheney The Troll Under The Bridge”"
    .
    That is comperable to ‘kill him! kill him!’ at Palin rallies? That’s just name calling. Everyone does that. Not racist, definitely not in the same class.
    .
    Strike two.
    “Olbermann, who has a history of blaming conservatives like Glenn Beck and Bill O’Reilly for violent acts by extremists.”
    .
    O’Reilly and McCain video on the Fall of White Power:

    .
    Glenn Beck and Bill O’Reilly make statements regularly that embolden extremists in your party. There have been, I think three or four instances in which a terrorist, holding closely to their views, have killed innocent civilians.
    .
    Strike three. Olbermann is actually very close to the truth.
    .
    I’ll throw you some chin music, just to follow up:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

  • 53_3

    freepina:
    .
    Wikpedia has one very, very good aspect.
    .
    There are links to follow! There are references! That is the key here!
    .
    Try it! Follow the links!

  • freeinpa

    Mr. Nice Guy No one said Waterboarding was fun! But the loudest shrinks come form the same crowd who have no second thoughts on abortion. Hiding behind “choice” is a canard. They had sevral choices: to have sex, the female to have unprotected sex, the ale to have unprotected sex. How many choices did the fetus get.

  • 53_3

    “PS Al Gores “Inconvenient Truth” is no an acceptable defense of global warming just ask the British legal system.”
    .
    Shhhh! Don’t tell anyone freeinpatobestupidashell!
    .
    That book is not a scientific paper and, the British legal system does not constrain scientific debate.
    .
    Don’t make the reilly, reilly stoopid mistake of trying to out argue a scientist! Please don’t…

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Mr. Nice Guy (MNG)
    ~
    Please forgive my lack of focus. I have absolutely no clue where “MSN” came from, but I believe I have addressed you as such on at least several other occasions as well. Man, I really do not know what that’s all about. Sorry, guy.

  • 53_3

    I think it’s this one:
    .
    “the ale to have unprotected sex”
    .
    I think Friar Tuck would agree wholeheartedly!

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    PS. Dear Israel,
    .
    Go f*#@ yourself.

    Sincerely,
    Neo

  • 53_3

    I will again point to my 7:50 statement for freeinpa:
    .
    [...]
    The dichotomy I point to is a long standing one. They are singularly unable to look at such people like they would if a stranger they had just freshly met espoused the same hatred.
    .
    I emphasize this because it constitutes a suspension of the social norms which we all practice and widely use in an attempt to discern the character of those we don’t know.
    .
    This applies explicitly to freeinpa.

  • freeinpa

    53_3 I suggest medication. Calling someone a fat drug addict is not an intellectual argument (And since you don’t consider it a hateful comment) for anything besides he could have been talkin gabout Ted Kennedy bu tthen he would hav eadded murderer to the description.

    You have a very selective definition meaning only when conservatives say something is it hateful. Mr Olberman would not find the truth if it bit his pompous butt. AMmazing how an O”reilly re-run has a bigger audience than MAthews, Olbermann combined. Can’t fit all the tin foil hats in one room I guess

  • freeinpa

    53_3 Just FYI I am a chemical engineer who worked on developing synthetic fueld for 10 years.

    No one said it was a scientific paper or the British courts were a scientific debate but it pointed out falsehoods like the left continues to throw out.

  • 53_3

    Exiled:
    .
    Now you know how Pirate Wench feels.
    .
    Freeinpa is the type I referred to above. He is the type that will never accept that the racial baggage must be separated from conservatism. There are at least as large a number of his type than there are in the Colin Powell mold.
    .
    A little known fact is that in the Black Community, approximately 40% of the population is conservative in the POV. A party without Southern Strategy, a longstanding non-secret, would be able to avail itself of that segment of the Black American population.
    .
    In matters of race, they voted with their feet. Back in the ’30s and ’40s, it was the Republican party who received most of their votes. That eroded to the 3% in this last campaign due to the intransigence of the GOP on these issues.

  • freeinpa

    The dichotmoy you point to is a long standing one? Evedenced by what? Your incessant blabbering? Get real

  • Cliff

    Seriously Wikipedia as a source Ypour killin gme
    .
    Don’t drink and Swampland, kids.

  • freeinpa

    Amazing you must eb th emost brillaint man in the world You ahve someone figured out after a couple of posts. What a burden it must be to be so brilliant and a POMPOUS GASBAG

  • freeinpa

    Sorry Cliff I will use my red pen or I could blame it on my public school education

  • 53_3

    “No one said it was a scientific paper or the British courts were a scientific debate but it pointed out falsehoods like the left continues to throw out.”
    .
    You raised the issue as a talking point. Scientific consensus is in. You looze. When the consensus changes, I’ll be sure to let you know. BTW, FYI, you need to avoid rhetoric and talking points if you want to argue the science.
    .
    I will add that NONE of the scientists who hold the minority view that global warming is not man made are being prosecuted in any manner. The people who doubted impact, namely Chuck Officer, were never intimidated, persecuted, or restricted in how or where they published. They just happened to be on the losing side of an argument.
    .
    As are you.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Surgeon General Warning:
    Drinking swampwater is hazardous to you health.

  • Cliff

    Sorry Cliff I will use my red pen or I could blame it on my public school education
    .
    I understand that most engineers have a tenuous grasp of the written word, but it really does help present your argument when you spell most of the words correctly.

  • freeinpa

    Get a recent paper consensus has changed thats why the rush to pass cap and trade.
    I will add that NONE of the scientists who hold the minority view that global warming is not man made are being prosecuted in any manner. The people who doubted impact, namely Chuck Officer, were never intimidated, persecuted, or restricted in how or where they published. They just happened to be on the losing side of an argument

    Either you can’t count or your meds need to be upped You throw rhetoric around and everything is a forgone cocnlusion no matter what WHY? Because you say so. HAppy times living in your little world

  • freeinpa

    I beleive the consnsus in the 70s had the same righteous attitudes about the “COMING ICE AGE” Now its global warming soon to be climate change why because the argument changes the cause never

    Cliff Wiley and Co would differ as I have written books and articles for them.

  • Cliff

    So 53 thinks the ice caps are going to melt and every nation in the world will be subjected to severe disruption, and he’s the rosy-glasses romantic?

  • 53_3

    freepina:
    .
    “53_3 I suggest medication. Calling someone a fat drug addict is not an intellectual argument (And since you don’t consider it a hateful comment) for anything besides he could have been talkin gabout”
    .
    Are you saying that Rush Limbaugh is not fat? Are you saying he wasn’t addicted to oxycontin?
    .
    Tell me troo!
    .
    “Ted Kennedy bu tthen he would hav eadded murderer to the description. You have a very selective definition meaning only when conservatives say something is it hateful.”
    .
    There are some who think Ted Kennedy was a murderer. I don’t consider them hateful. There were a lot of questions about the incident. Not related to the issue in any way. Don’t know why you threw it in except to divert. I see no rebuttal here.
    .
    “Mr Olberman would not find the truth if it bit his pompous butt.”
    .
    Saying that about Olbermann doesn’t rebut anything I said about the three or four terrorists I mentioned. Seems he is closer to the truth than you think. Now, if you were to post a link about Olbermanns’ ‘big pompous but’ you could take this out of the real of rhetoric. Again, no valid rebuttal, except the use of the word ‘butt’ which is contained by the word ‘rebuttal’.
    .
    “AMmazing how an O”reilly re-run has a bigger audience than MAthews, Olbermann combined. Can’t fit all the tin foil hats in one room I guess”
    .
    This is your defence of O’Reilly?
    .
    You reilly are stoopid. So far, you’ve O’fer’ed, freeinpa…

  • freeinpa

    Remains to be seen if the ice cap melts or grows or Obama justs spends the world into oblivion

  • 53_3

    “Remains to be seen if the ice cap melts or grows or Obama justs spends the world into oblivion”
    .
    Sigh…:
    http://www.aim.org/on-target-blog/bailout-cost-exceeds-all-american-wars/
    .
    Still 0fer, freeinpa…

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    freeper: so, what’s your answer? Outlaw abortion? Yeah, we saw that that worked really well. Or doesn’t the health of the woman matter?

    And I’d like to see something more discrete than your assertion that the people screaming loudest against waterboarding are the same ones advocating abortion. Waterboarding violates international laws – cue neo’s outrage vis-a-vis Israel – and rarely produces useful intelligence, but, last I checked, abortions were still legal.

    And lest you think I’m some blood-thirsty fetus murderer, my wife had to have a D&C about 18 years ago for a fetus that didn’t make it. It crushed us, at the time, and that child, if it had been born, would’ve graduated this year. I don’t speak lightly of abortion because I’m part of a family that had to make that decision. And, like PW says, go F yourself if you think you know better than I do.

    Just out of curiosity, you’re not from the Bradford area of PA, are you?

  • 53_3

    MNG:
    .
    You’re not insinuating that freeinpa is a real American, are you?!?!
    .
    Wonder if he was waving one of those Obama monkeys at the Palin rally…

  • freeinpa

    53-3 follow along for a “briliant scientist” you have no logical thought path. HAving a description of Rush L. as a fat drug-addict was not an argument by Begala for anything but a bile filled outburst.

    Begala would pop an artery if someone callled Kennedy a fat drunk drug addict murderer claiming it was hateful speech. I used small words hopefully you followed that one.

  • 53_3

    freeinpa:
    .
    That was an observation!
    .
    I mean, if you don’t think so, go look!
    .
    Kennedy isn’t really fat, and he isn’t a drug addict, so that is not an observation!
    .
    How simple do I have to make this? Anyway, still 0′fer…

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    freeper: do you really suggest that Obama is spending the stimulus money because he wants to, or rather that he has to? Keep in mind, this country wouldn’t be in the sad condition it is if Bush & the Repugs hadn’t ridden it into the ground. Even with syn oils, if you trash your engine, don’t be surprised that you need an overhaul. And it won’t be cheap. Or were the years from 2000 to 2006 somehow anyone other than the Repugs’ fault?

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Neo cued…and outraged!

  • freeinpa

    Mr. Nice Guy
    Abortion should be left to each state to decide and should not be paid for with taxpayer money. The two most overused arguments to fortify distasteful positions is for the women’s health or for the children. People who cannot see the right to bear arms in the 2nd Amendment, see with absolute clarity the righ tto abortion in the constitution.

    I am sorry for your loss and no I am not from the northwest art of the state

  • 53_3

    And I still fail to see how the size of O’Reilly’s audience absolves him of being a rabid racist!
    .
    Of course, I didn’t cover the ice cap thingie with the rosy glasses, but here goes simple:
    .
    CO2 is a greenhouse gas. Do I really need to link to confirm that?
    CO2 has risen historically from approximately 250 ppb about 9,000 years ago to 280 ppb about 1750 to 384 ppb last year.
    .
    Da ice cubes gonna melt…

  • freeinpa

    Pre cancer Senator Kennedy could have been used in the Macy’s parade
    but you seem to concede drunk and a murderer. so not o’fer.

    Make it as simple as you are that way even a dumocrat will understand

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    ohiolib –
    .
    Avast, matey – don’t be takin’ yerself so serious ‘ere in th’ swamp! Ye can’t be expectin’ t’ deprive a pirate o’ ‘er salty exclamatin’! It be part o’ me code, an fer th’ most part be fer me own entertainment (an’ that o’ me hearty crew mates).
    .
    Spongy go F yerself, on t’ other ‘and…I be meanin’ tha’ 100%!
    .
    An’ now I be needin’ t’ be passin’ th’ sentiment along…
    .
    freeinpa – go F yerself, ye scabbrous troll!
    .
    Arrgh!

  • 53_3

    “Pre cancer Senator Kennedy could have been used in the Macy’s parade but you seem to concede drunk and a murderer.
    .
    We were talking hate and the GOP not observations. You’ve done your best at diverting, but I ain’t bitin’.
    .
    The dichotomy is still there. You won’t address Southern Strategy and you won’t address what O’Reilly said and you won’t address the terrorism incidents and you won’t address the real nature of scientific debate and you wont address the fact that CO2…
    .
    ” so not o’fer.”
    .
    Yes, you are.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    freeper: so, answer the question: should we outlaw abortion? Should my wife have carried a non-viable fetus until it killed her? Is that your answer?

    Frankly, I’d rather keep it at the federal level. We all know how concerned for their citizens certain states are. Like those southern states that were so concerned for non-whites that they had to enact Jim Crow laws. No, I’m sorry, but history – and common-sense – has shown us that locals don’t always know better.

    Your connection between the 2nd and abortion is just plain ludicrous. You sound like one of Palin’s “real Americans,” slobbering with – your choice – hate, fear, or greed. There’s no point talking to you if the only argument you can come up with is irrational.

  • freeinpa

    Amazing how the dems never have anything thing to do with the bad. Barney Frank statin gin hearing FNM and Freddie Mac were solid, Bill CLinton refusing to take OBL, Sweetheart mortgage deals for Dodd, Conrad all why absolving the financial service companies of any wrongdoing. The deficit for Obama exceeds ALL PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS COMBINED. GDP and unemployment under repubs with a terror attack and a recession hav enot approached what Obama has hit. Pass Stimulus, heath care cap and trade fast before anyone notices. We spend to much on health care so let’s spend another $trillion on it. Perfect logic

  • 53_3

    What was that, freeinpatobereillystoopid?
    .
    That’s just plain rhetoric. Or did you forget to look at the link I posted on the GOP treasury handouts prior to Feb 20, 2009.
    .
    Ok, so be it. Here it is again:
    http://www.aim.org/on-target-blog/bailout-cost-exceeds-all-american-wars/
    .
    Still 0′fer…

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    I will agree that if people want to get an abortion, they should pay for it. I wouldn’t make it an immutable law – I’m sure some condition exists where the state should consider paying for it: how about if a mentally handicapped woman is raped? And, yes, it does happen – but for the majority of cases, you or your insurance, if that’s what the contract says, should foot the bill.

  • 53_3

    I second MNG’s take on states’ rights when it comes to human rights.
    .
    Our nation needs to adhere to a national standard in this regard. The Jim Crows were the last straw…

  • freeinpa

    Yes the federal level Everyone is quick to blast the Southern states but let;s us not forget the more recent occurance of imprisoning the Japanese during World War II oh yeah that was the Feds. I am from the governemnt and here to help you.

    The argument of the Constitution is always ludicrous to people who like to bend laws to suit their needs or causes.

    Hate- fear greed those seem to be the motives of those who attack Plain. Fear she will be elected, hate values she holds true and greed because the sucking of tax dollars from hard working people tothe nanny state may stop

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    MNG
    ~
    I really don’t want to be involved in this, however, a simple point. Opposition to abortion does not preclude the possibility of exceptions, such as the case of the health of the mother. Certainly, in the case of you and your wife, very few pro-lifers would object. Those who would are more loyal to their cause than to humanity. It does not have to be so black and white with either full blown legalization or a rigid exceptionless ban.
    ~
    Additionally, the clunky, impersonal and bureaucratic federal government is hardly more concerned for its citizens than local branches which interact with their constituency on a regular basis.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    In case it’s not clear, freeper, the bailouts were done before Obama took office. How can you blame the man for something done before he was responsible? Is he an angel? Is he perfect? Heck no. But at least affix blame where it properly belongs. In this case, that would be Bush – a Republican.

  • 53_3

    freeinpa:
    .
    Did you ever hear these words uttered by John McCain during this last campaign?
    .
    “Middle Class”
    .
    “Yes the federal level Everyone is quick to blast the Southern states but let;s us not forget the more recent occurance of imprisoning the Japanese during World War II”
    .
    Now that was just plain stupid. Reilly, reilly stoopid, freeinpa!
    .
    I might point out that the Jim Crow laws antedate WWII and were not repealed until Civil Rights was enacted into law, and in addition, some of these laws existed well into the ’80s.
    .
    There is no issue about being “quick” unless you believe that denying Black Americans most rights under the Constitution of the United States!
    .
    And you whine about just the second amendment…

  • freeinpa

    http://www.aim.org/on-target-blog/bailout-cost-exceeds-all-american-wars/

    53_3 you call your self a scientist and you send a link for AIM the Soros mouthpiece. AIM is as believable as Huffington post or to quote some gasbag “that plain rhetoric”

    Extreme cases of rape or incest are a gray area. The safeguards of what is medically necesary get squashed with political claptrap.

    PS Jim Crow laws were the brainchild of the democrats

  • ohiolib

    The deficit for Obama exceeds ALL PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS COMBINED
    -
    Free, if you’re going to throw around GOP bumper sticker points, at least make sure they’re vaguely accurate. This one in particular is a hunk of baloney. And if you don’t have any fact-based, coherent argument sot make other than “The Dems are also bad” then I recommend being quiet. The whine is attracting frenchmen.
    -
    http://www.salon.com/wires/ap/2009/06/18/D98TB67O1_us_obama_deficits_analysis/index.html

    The short version: Obama deficits are bigger than any other, but they’re not inflation-adjusted, nor are they bigger than every other deficit combined. The deficit jumped from 1.3 trillion when Obama took office, to about 1.8 trillion now.

  • freeinpa

    neo thx for adding sanity to a difficult discussion

    53 you are dumber the wood Flowery text or not. And yes thank a Republican for teh Civil Rights Act

  • ohiolib

    PS Jim Crow laws were the brainchild of the democrats
    - that’s like claiming that MLK was a republican. They’re both technically true, but that was back when the republicans where the socially liberal group and the dems where entrenched in the South. This switched in the 60′s instigated heavily by LBJ’s passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. I’m not sure if you’re ignorant, or just pathetic, but trying that argument was just sad.

  • freeinpa

    ohiolib try to throw around accurate media Salonm NYT, HUffington among the other dimwitted hings you read are not among them

    PS Obambi is not done yet. 38% increase in 5months is impressive you must admit

  • 53_3

    Then how about this one, freeinpatobereillyreillystoopid:
    http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/archive/2008/11/24/the-real-bailout-cost-7-4-trillion.aspx
    .
    From money central! And it doesn’t include anything after November 24th, 2008! Crunch all you want! I’ll make more!
    .
    “Jim Crow laws were the brainchild of the democrats”
    .
    Can I send you some Southern Strategy scripting and help you with your codespeak?
    .
    divisive: Anyone who implies that the GOP has used racial hatred as a means to attain a political objective
    honest: A racist
    shoot from the hip: Willing to espouse racist opinions
    controversial: A racist
    .
    I could write your stuff for you freetobestupdashell. Don’t forget to mention (which you didn’t) that the Dixiecrats migrated to the GOP after their defeat following the Civil Rights enactment. The GOP is directly responsible for the perpetuation of Jim Crow laws well into the 1980s.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    neo: I’m pushing to see what freeper’s answer is. Because if you allow some abortions, then how do you decide which are acceptable, and which are not? I, as a man, would never want to tell a woman that she could or could not have an abortion. Avoidance is best, but where rhetoric meets reality, it’s not my call – or yours.

    And I’m no fan of the Feds, either, particularly after my wife’s family was forcibly removed from their home, and their belongings torched, for the Kinzua Dam “reclamation.” I feel for the Japanese that suffered through the internment. But, the indisputable racist history of southern states – even up through modern times, as you see with the prosecution of the “Jena 6″ – I’d rather have all of us in on the decision of what our fundamental rights are. The chances of a bad decision, while not zero, are still considerably lower.

  • ohiolib

    So you’re saying that because Obama is spending a lot now, your argument will eventually be true? And I went with the first reasonable site that had hard numbers. If you’d care to dispute them, you’re welcome to, but attacking the media just implies that you don’t have a real argument to make.

  • freeinpa

    ohiolib what’s sad is those dems in the south still exist. Al Gores father voted against it The Grabd Wizard of the KKK Sen Byrd voted against it. And yet todays libs marvel at them thats sad and pathetic

  • 53_3

    Exiled:
    .
    Freeinpa has amply demonstrated exactly why conservative Black Americans refuse to vote for the GOP under any circumstances.

  • sacredh

    JFC! I leave you folks alone for 8 hours and when I come back the god-damned trolls are so fat they can’t even waddle off to watch Fox News. Put the pieces of bread away. Welcome back cincy.

  • 53_3

    freeinpa:
    .
    When you discuss Civil Rights, who do you discuss the issue with?
    .
    May I venture a suggestion to help lift you out of your ignorance?
    .
    Try asking Black Americans what they think! Have you ever thought of that?
    .
    After all, they are the horse at the source, don’t you think?

  • ohiolib

    So Al Gore’s father voted against the Civil rights Act. You believe that the sins of the father will passed down for 7 generations, or is this just an attempt to cover your lack of real issues?
    P.S. I’m not a democrat precisely because of the type of hypocrisy and back-stabbing among the national democratic party. Nice try though.

  • freeinpa

    If the demos have done so well for blacks and controlled Congress for over 40 years How can it possibly be that the racism the bigotry, unequal access still exist?

    I have actually gotten dumber talking with you folks

  • ohiolib

    Welcome back Sacredh. This particular troll is just too much fun to ignore. Every time he types something, it’s either a whine or a distraction from the real issue.

  • liberalrapture

    I like Palin. I am deeply embedded in the “creative class” in the nation’s second largest city. A proud liberal all my life. All my markers say I ought to cringe at this person Palin being discussed here. Except of course, this “palin” does not exist. It was conjured by a large group of entitled brats who are still convinced Obama is a saviour and that he – in some way earned his place. He did not. He is a hologram sent by Wall Street and the idiot elites who hate the working and middle classes. The sooner that is made clear the sooner this horrible chapter in American history will end.

    Who knows what Palin does next. Whatever she wants to I’d guess. She is a star. Deal with it.

    The fact is – Those with PAlin derangement syndrome are sexists. Period. It is about her being a woman AND a conservative.

    It’s not that most who trash Palin aren’t “real” Americans. It is that they are not Americans at all. They fancy themselves “world citizens.” I shudder at the thought – but a right wing surge is coming – and it is because of the bratty, mean Left.

  • freeinpa

    It is quite obvious that anyone who wishes to knwo anything whether its Civil Rights, Global warming, Budget deficits should speak with the almighty 53_3- THE GOD COMPLEX LIVES MAybe we do need NAtional Heathcare with coverage for mental disorders

  • 53_3

    “what’s sad is those dems in the south still exist. Al Gores father voted against it The Grabd Wizard of the KKK Sen Byrd voted against it.”
    .
    Ok, more news from the Black community for you freeinpa:
    .
    Byrd recanted and was forgiven.
    Wallace recanted and is widely respected in the Black community for his stands following his recantation.
    .
    None of those in the GOP have done so, Lott’s “Blaxpology” tour was the joke of the century.
    .
    I think, before you actually try to paint the GOP (and yourself) as innocent of the racial baggage, I suggest you consult with those who know:
    .
    The Black community…

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    MNG
    ~
    It would not be that difficult to distinguish which abortion cases should be allowed and which would not be allowed. A ban could be placed on any abortions based solely out of choice. That is, allowable procedures would include those when there is a health risk to the mother, which could be verified by doctors, and in cases of rape or incest. All others would be denied.
    ~
    Regardless of isolated instances, contemporary state governments are more suited to protect the rights of all their citizenry. Not the case in the 1960s, but this is not the 1960s. As for the Jena 6 case, what are you implying? Were it simply a schoolyard fight it should be not taken all that seriously. However, 6 individuals violently and brutally assaulting a lone individual warrants prosecution. And, might I add, that federal authorities would undoubtedly implement a hate crime case had the ethnicity been reversed. Had 6 white students violently beat a minority student there would be no debate. Hate crime. Pure and simple.

  • freeinpa

    See 53_3 your hatred is showing – All Dumos forgiven but Lott was the joke of the century for saying soemthing that was marginal. Bryd headed up lynchings you have no sense of proportion or a ton of stupidity

  • ohiolib

    It’s not that most who trash Palin aren’t “real” Americans. It is that they are not Americans at all. They fancy themselves “world citizens.” I shudder at the thought – but a right wing surge is coming – and it is because of the bratty, mean Left.
    -
    I hate to break this to you, Exile, but this has become a disturbingly common train of thought among the GOP base, and it’s a prime example of the type of “More American than thou” attitude that originally prompted JK to write this article. Now, I hope that liberalrapture isn’t typical of the GOP, but s/he is a textbook case of what you were trying to refute earlier.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    53: It depends on where in PA freeper is. Up in the NW area, for example, he won’t find many non-whites with which to have this discussion. Actually, until you get into the bigger burghs, you won’t find many non-whites at all. Even though the Underground Railroad was strong in PA, it’s almost become a northern Mississippi, lately. Outside of Pittsburgh, Philly, Harrisburg, etc., you shouldn’t linger about, if you’re not white. On the other hand, State College, for a small town, isn’t too bad, what with Penn State, there.

  • freeinpa

    Careful neo – 53_3 will give you his comeuppance for your ignorance on understandign the black community

  • 53_3

    freeinpa:
    .
    Why thank you! I don’t deserve this honor, though. But didn’t you notice that I can and will back everything I say with links?
    .
    It kinda helps, freeinpatobereillyreillystoopid.
    .
    I mean, reilly, you can keep talking to those good ol’ boys about Civil Rights if you want, but I can’t think of anything more sensible than to go to the well, so to speak. You know, the foundation? The base data?
    .
    Can you suggest anyone better to talk to than those in the Black community about this?
    .
    I mean, reilly

  • sacredh

    It took me almost 20 minutes to go through the previous 4 pages (I had to read some things more than once since they made almost no sense at all) and I have one question. When are we going to get another “1000 Words”?

  • freeinpa

    Yes 53_3 I am sure you have all the links and a tin foil hat. Its great to know that you speak for the entire black community.

    Just FYI I spend a good bit of my time in North Philly with that community his Majesty 53 talks about. But of course he knows better than I

  • Cliff

    I have actually gotten dumber talking with you folks
    .
    Now that is impressive.

  • 53_3

    “All Dumos forgiven but Lott was the joke of the century for saying soemthing that was marginal.”
    .
    A forty-five minute racist tirade is marginal?
    .
    I really think you ought to ask Black Americans about this one. Listen to what they say about it. What you don’t seem to get is that the Black community is quite forgiving when someone is honest about their conduct and shows a significant change of heart, as well as actions.
    .
    That shows more about the ability of the Black community to forgive rather than any thing about the Democrats.

  • freeinpa

    Yes marginal compared to being the Grand Wizard of the KKK or does his Majesty think otherwise IQ53

  • 53_3

    freeinpa:
    .
    “Its great to know that you speak for the entire black community.”
    .
    Well, being in the Black community for 40 years does help.
    .
    I guess then, that you are not interested in finding out for yourself? I suggested that because what you really need to do is to talk to them. Get thee to the well…

  • Cliff

    I like Palin. I am deeply embedded in the “creative class” in the nation’s second largest city. A proud liberal all my life.
    .
    Ahh, sweet, delicious lies.
    .
    You rarely get them so pure any more.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    neo: that’s nice of you to decide that. Just playing Devil’s Advocate, but, under your rules, what’s to stop any woman from saying, true or not, “I was raped!”? I mean, if you have an “unwanted” pregnancy, and “The Man” won’t allow you to get rid of it just because you want to, then why not? Barring that, desperate women will go underground, again. And, like I said, that wasn’t pretty the first time around.

    Ohio, it wasn’t neo what wrote that. ‘Twas liberalrapture. Even so, we’ve never been a country to unanimously agree. Even the First Continental Congress had their arguments. Hamilton and Jefferson had no love lost for each other. As long as the debate is founded on rational discussion, I’m cool that you don’t agree with me. freeper, here, is pulling some serious baseless dogma out of his butt, however, earning him a distinction of troll almost equivalent to Rusty.

  • freeinpa

    IQ53. I spend hours every week talking with the “Black Community” that us dumb conservatives refer to as people. I have helped build programs that get them into private schools and colleges. I have helped them start businesses. BUT your right YOU ARE THE MAN

  • 53_3

    Exiled:
    .
    The sentencing was far out of range. The conjecture is only yours.
    .
    There is an issue of what I call ‘customary racism’ here. Did you know that what started the whole thing was the kid that sat under that tree felt the need to ask the principal for permission?
    .
    I point that out to make clear that customary racism did play a significant role how the events in Jena unfolded. One of the things that did come out of it was to place a microscope over the continued existence of customary racism in some areas of the South.

  • ohiolib

    I know, but Exiled and I were arguing earlier about whether the GOP actually believed that they were better Americans than non-GOP. This statement is a prime example of that attitude, which I decided to point out. Possibly petty, but it helps validate my earlier position.

  • freeinpa

    Foloow the argument of choice to the next step- child support. The woman chooses to abort, Man has no standing. Woman chooses to go to term Man pays child support. Another wheel fallin goff the wagon of liberal intellectual thought

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    freeper: drive-bys don’t count. You don’t get to know a community by seeing it as you fly past at 65, hoping your car doesn’t break down. I don’t get to claim understanding of the local Native Americans by driving on the ‘rez, regardless of what Palin thinks.

  • sacredh

    There are so many opportunities to just jump into the fight and trash some of the more ridiculous posts, but shouldn’t we reserve our creative scorn for that hillbilly halfwit that just resigned? Her “Real America” was a fiction. Her concern for the people of her state and the people of our country was a fiction she perpetuated to advance the one thing that Sarah truly loves…herself. Surely no one is going to debate that.

  • 53_3

    But, did you talk to them? Have you asked them how they feel about any of this stuff you claim as true? What did they say? How do they feel about the issues I’ve raised here?
    .
    MNG:
    .
    That takes it, then. Maybe he’s a real American that is living outside “real” America.
    .
    Sorry I took a while, but this guy has more answers than questions, so I’m just trying to supply him with some questions to go along with all his answers…

  • freeinpa

    The sentencing was far out of range. The conjecture is only yours.
    IQ53 there was no conjecture. And by your tone with me and your self imposed superiority of the black community only explains the existence of racism by blacks who do not accept every piece of twaddle that “intellectuals” spew

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    Uh, no freeper: that’s shifting the goal lines. Let’s stick to the original discussion, shall we? You still haven’t explained how we should handle the situation? What’s your plan? Or, like a typical modern Repug, you just b!tch about things, offering no realistic alternative?

  • 53_3

    sacred:
    .
    I was just having fun…
    .
    Do I have to put the stick down? I was just poking it to see whether I could make it bite!
    .
    Ok, ok! I’ll put the stick away. I don’t want to get sent to my room…

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    freeper @ 26… What did you just say? Am I the only one who couldn’t understand that?

  • freeinpa

    Mr Nice Guy you seem to apprach the same mental capacity as IQ53. I have lived with these folks, traveled with them, taken kids into my home, searched for missing siblings. But no we never talked. What they say they what an opportunity not something handed to them. No whining about things gone by but how they can improve their lives and their kids lives today.

  • 53_3

    freeinpa has been doing that ever since I jumped in, but hey, when you have links, it helps at least a little.
    .
    But, then again, I must be wrong! Hell yes! Being married to a Black woman, having sons and daughters that share a black heritage, and being in the Black community just don’t count for a hill of beans, do they?
    .
    I stand corrected, on everything

  • anon76

    MNG- for the love of all that is holy, do not engage the troll. If it becomes incoherent (moreso), than count your blessings and get the hell out. There’s a saying that comes to mind about wrestling in the mud with a pig…

  • freeinpa

    Modern Republicans always offer real solutions they are just not heard as they are shouted down by the dim lights of the liberal nut bags who offer victimhood and no repsonsibility as unalienable rights

  • 53_3

    “But no we never talked. What they say they what an opportunity not something handed to them. No whining about things gone by but how they can improve their lives and their kids lives today.”
    .
    Oh wow. Do I reilly need to add anything to this?
    .
    “But no we never talked.”
    .
    That says it all right there.
    .
    But speaking of posilutely dripping of superiority…

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Huh?

  • 53_3

    I’ll quit here. I’ve had my fun.
    .
    You guys can have him…

  • ohiolib

    Modern Republicans always offer real solutions they are just not heard as they are shouted down by the dim lights of the liberal nut bags who offer victimhood and no repsonsibility as unalienable rights
    -
    You mean like budgets with no numbers?

  • freeinpa

    IQ53 I have a set of golf clubs but it doesn’t make me Tiger Woods. You can speak about your experiences but you cannot extrapolate them to an entire population (I think thats profiling) nor can you negate my experiences no matter how pompous you become.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    Hmm. Why aren’t there opportunities for them just there for the taking? What’s holding them back? And, would you say that their experiences are the same as ever other black persons’? Hint: I’m trying to guide you to the obvious answer, but I’m not sure you’ll get it.

  • 53_3

    Oh, well, one last thing.
    .
    You’re entirely right, freeinpa!
    .
    This last election, all of three percent of those Black Americans voting agree with you!

  • anon76

    @Neo- I was speaking in regards to freeinpa, in case your ‘huh’ was directed at me.

  • freeinpa

    But no we never talked. What they say they what an opportunity not something handed to them. No whining about things gone by but how they can improve their lives and their kids lives today.”
    .
    Oh wow. Do I reilly need to add anything to this?

    MORE LIBERAL INTELLECTUAL DISCOURSE. When you have the IQ of 53 and others here you dismiss what you can’t defend or point to some political hack who could not get a job performing a constructive function

  • 53_3

    I liked this part:
    .
    “No whining about things gone by…”
    .
    And the Jewish community must be “whining” about the Holocaust, too? Nevermind.
    .
    Score one for the inability to place onself in anothers’ shoes…

  • sacredh

    This does look like fun so I won’t play hall monitor. Pick up the stick and poke away. I’m tempted to join in myself, but I just spent the last 8 hours entertaining some good friends from down south. WAY down south. I’m fairly worn out from countering “Obama is ruining the country” stuff with “Sarah is an air head slut” jokes. They ran out of material long before I did. This really did look like it would have been fun. I’m sorry i missed it. Somebody post a scorecard before they hit the rack. No Gitmo jokes.

  • piper1

    “I have actually gotten dumber talking with you folks.”
    .
    Impossible, my friend.

  • freeinpa

    I would stand by that 3 percent than the likes of IQ 53 any day.

    I promise next time to use smaller words or pictures so all will understand eliminating the “huhs”

    ohiolib no not budgets just bills that get rammed thorugh with no debate or amendments then have dumos complain about no bipartsian support

  • freeinpa

    piper1 – its true I now have the urge to go register as a Democrat that can only mean brain damage

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Anon
    ~
    No, my quizzical utterance was in regard to the incoherent ramblings of the alleged engineer. While I can vaguely envision where he is coming from, he has obfuscated the obvious in ways I can only watch in total disbelief and confusion.

  • sacredh

    We can post pictures on here? I’ve wondered what some of the @ssholes look like.

  • 53_3

    Well there you have it.
    .
    Experience counts for nothing and he still doesn’t get it!
    .
    sacred, do you want my stick?
    .
    He doesn’t even realize he’s kicking his own arse. At least spob claimed every defeat as victory!

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    ohio: they offered budgets with no numbers? That’s more than I’d heard. I understood they were just going to filibuster everything, like spoiled brats.

    Since it’s late, and I’ve had a rough day – not that this bit of entertainment doesn’t make up for at least some of it – I think I’ll take anon76′s advice, follow 53′s lead, and bail on this. Way to not substantiate any of your arguments, freeper. I’ll add you to my mental list of “people to skip over in future discussions.”

  • sacredh

    53_3: I’ll pass on the stick. I’m ready to turn in and get some sleep. I’ve been working/entertaining/cooking/cleaning for the last 6 days. Thank God I go back to work tomorrow. I need some rest.

  • freeinpa

    Well the opportunities are not there for them for reasons you won;t fathom. Like poor education because it wasn’t cool for them to be educated. Because its easier to sell drugs or turn tricks rather than take an honest job. Do liberals ever consider how blacks and other minorities come from all over the world to the US with nothing and build a business and a life while Black Americans are always held back by racism.

    Must be part of that vaunted Southern Strategy to be bigoted against AMerican Blacks

  • 53_3

    Exiled:
    .
    He’s an excellent example of just why the GOP was able to garner only that three percent.
    .
    They aren’t stupid in case anyone wonders, and it would be better to point out here that there really is no difference between what the Black community wants and what other Americans want.
    .
    It will be a while before the GOP learns that in order to garner the votes of that 40% I spoke of earlier, they will have to give adequate respect to their history and not try to subvert or revise it.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    Ah, neo!, we’re in agreement on something. The heavens part, light shines down. I thought I was unable to understand that post of freepers, but he really was butchering, with reckless abandon, our beloved language. Phew. That’s a relief…

  • freeinpa

    I understood they were just going to filibuster everything, like spoiled brats.

    Way to substantiate your arguments

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    I guess I spoke too soon about leaving…

    53: wasn’t there a plus/minus on the polling? Could that 3% actually fall within a standard deviation?

    freeper: with your post @ 3, you’re basically validating what we’ve been saying all along: institutionalized racism is holding them back. Just like in NY, and parts of the south-west, racism towards Native Americans keeps them chained to their reservations like dogs. Or are you butchering the language again…?

  • freeinpa

    Love Liberals name call use discredited links then cry –

    I think I go watch a reality show to raise my IQ after these discussions

  • freeinpa

    The chains of racism is the belief that the government will deliver them a better life.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    freeper: good gravy poured all over Amy Sullivan! What’s wrong with you, son?! Do I have to substantiate that? Have you been hiding under a rock these past weeks?

    Now I’m out…

  • 53_3

    “Must be part of that vaunted Southern Strategy to be bigoted against AMerican Blacks”
    .
    Well, besides widespread customary racism, at varying levels in this country, and the fact that it is the only society on the planet that has gone through what could be referred to as a sociological “black hole”*, you managed to get that part right. Most of the current urban myths about what people in the Black community want or what they are like were mainstreamed into the “white” American society by none other, freeinpa. You’ve displayed many of them for all to see.
    .
    BTW, do you know what ‘forty acres and a mule’ means?
    .
    *During slavery, no information about antecedent societies, their norms and customs, or other useful information was able to penetrate this barrier. This is why I refer to it as a “black hole”. Thus, Black society is unique in having to remake itself from societies outside, such as social structures maintained by freemen and Carribean/South American black societies.

  • freeinpa

    Want to break the chains have school choice.

  • sacredh

    53_3: One last post before I turn in. When the GOP garners that 40% of the Black conservative vote, they will lose the evangelical bubba vote. They’ll still be where they started out at, a party in decline that appeals to fewer and fewer voters. The democratic party appeals to voters who happen to be Black. Until the republicans can get it through their heads that they need to appeal to PEOPLE and not just their southern strategy white base, they’ll continue to shrink.
    .
    The big problem is that the southern strategy white base has no intention of loosening their grip. They’re guarding something that no longer exists. They’ve got their little share and expect the people who don’t vote for them to suddenly wake up and not be appalled by them anymore. It’s like a dog waiting for it’s dead owner to walk in the door and pet it. It’s not going to happen.

  • 53_3

    MNG:
    .
    You’re right, it could be zero!
    .
    freeinpa:
    .
    Didn’t you follow the links that were provided. A Wikipedia article is not just a stand alone item, it has links and references, and they are valid!
    .
    Or didn’t you read that other, other other post I put up?

  • freeinpa

    IQ53 just remember slaves never would have reached the US if othr blacks in Africa did not sell them out.

  • 53_3

    “t’s like a dog waiting for it’s dead owner to walk in the door and pet it”
    .
    Sacred:
    .
    It’s more like a dead dog waiting…

  • freeinpa

    Didn’t you follow the links that were provided. A Wikipedia article is not just a stand alone item, it has links and references, and they are valid!

    Well if you say they are valid – must be! How can a pompous gasbag be doubted

  • 53_3

    “The chains of racism is the belief that the government will deliver them a better life.”
    .
    Who told you this? I havn’t heard any hold that belief. They want jobs, just like we do. But since you don’t talk to them, you don’t know their POV.
    .
    What many do believe is that states rights is not a legitimate avenue for dealing with racism and feel that the federal government would do a better job.
    .
    “slaves never would have reached the US if othr blacks in Africa did not sell them out.”
    .
    Now, this is not true. Other Africans captured and sold slaves, but Europeans and Americans did two things:
    .
    1. They went ashore on many occasions to capture slaves themselves.
    2. They set up contacts, and set up markets for the American/European slave trade
    .
    The slave trade would have continued regardless of the circumstances, as they were an economic necessity in the South.
    .
    So is what you are saying is that Black Americans brought slavery on themselves? Isn’t that exactly what you are implying here?

  • 53_3

    freeinpa:
    .
    “The chains of racism is the belief that the government will deliver them a better life.”
    “slaves never would have reached the US if othr blacks in Africa did not sell them out.”
    .
    Have you actually tried to tell Black Americans these things?
    .
    What do you think they would say about these statements? Why don’t you ask them? See what they think about this.
    .
    Only a suggestion…

  • freeinpa

    Sarcasm is the use of sharp, cutting remarks or language intended to mock, wound, or subject to contempt or ridicule.I figure I would give you the definition of sarcasm since you obviously either misread what I said or are truly stupid. I speak with them for hours daily “But since you don’t talk to them, you don’t know their POV”
    .
    Now, this is not true. Other Africans captured and sold slaves. 6 words to contradict yourself. ANd no they did not brin git on but they contributed to it. The slave trade would not have flourished without their help

  • 53_3

    Exiled:
    .
    If you haven’t already chawed your leg off and crawled away on the bloody stump, I think I can say that I have more than adequately highlighted the problem with the GOP and now rest my case.
    .
    Good night all.

  • freeinpa

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade

    IQ53 since you are such a fan of Wikipedia

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    53_3
    Currently chewing…Its a bloody painful mess.

  • rmrd

    freeinpa, did you read the section on African slavery that states………………Slavery varied in form in different African cultures, but in many cases there was no clear distinction between slavery and servitude. In some cases slaves could accumulate property and buy their own freedom — some even rose to the status of rulers?
    .
    The African model is not the same as the model used in the United states.
    .
    On another point, if you kidnap someone sell them to me and I take that person to another country and use them in forced labor, I am a criminal as well. The slave-owners were not morally superior.
    .
    Conservatives often use your line of attack about slavery when they are frustrated when talking about race. Another approach used is one that has been recently revived by Pat Buchanan and Michael Medved. Both Medved and Buchanan have written about the benefits that Blacks accrued by being brought to the United States and living in a democratic society.
    .
    When Conservatives use the African slavery distraction or the “be thankful for slavery” argument, they do not realize how much damage they bring to Conservatism as a whole. Hearing the argument, my initial impression is that the person making the statement is not worthy of further conservation. We can have an argument, but we won’t have conversation.
    .
    Should Jewish people thank Hitler and the Nazi Party for the Jewish Holocaust because it led to a strengthening of ethnic character and formation of the state of Israel? The proposition is so ludicrous that you would not make the argument, yet here we are. US slavery was the fault of African society? Obviously, the superior firepower possessed by the US would never have been used to crush African resistance to the US slave trade.
    .
    Conservatives seemingly just can’t help themselves in discussions on race. Enjoy your 3-4% of the African-American voters.
    .
    By the way John McCain got the same percentage of the White vote as Ronald Reagan. Reagan won in a landslide. McCain was thrashed. The demographics are changing. If Conservatives continue with the same message, the GOP will be a permanent minority.

  • http://poeticfreedom.wordpress.com LyricalQT

    Very good article, I do agree with you 100%. Until Republicans realize that they alienate people who would otherwise support them with their hateful words, actions and “No” mentality they will never recover. I myself am a person who has a general view believe in many things Republicans claim to stand for. My issue is that they never seem to come out of their fantasy world to solve real problems with real action. They cling to their outdated methods not realizing there are better ways to solve the problems. Like, instead of trying to ban gay marriage maybe they should force the gov’t to give control back to the churches. Let the religions decided by their rules whether they will marry a gay couple and then uphold that decision. JMHO…

  • robertgraves

    Joe Klein is a citizen of the United States of America, but this doesn’t make him an American, nor does it mean that he’s a patriot.

    Here’s your assignment, Joe. What’s a citizen? What’s an American? What’s a patriot? You’re a citizen by virtue of your birth. But are you an American? Are you a patriot?

    Like you, Sarah Palin is a citizen by virtue of her birth. Is she an American? Is she a patriot?

    If you say that you’re an American, is Sarah Palin any less an American? If you say that you’re a patriot, is Sarah Palin any less a patriot?

    A smart guy like you shouldn’t have any trouble answering these questions.

  • freeinpa

    “When Conservatives use the African slavery distraction or the “be thankful for slavery” argument, they do not realize how much damage they bring to Conservatism as a whole” I love when libs talk of damage to conservatives. African slavery was not a distraction but an essential element as to how lavery came to the AMericas. Left to his own devices America would never have been able to navigate the African continent without help from Africans. That is an inconvenient reality libs like to gloss over.

    IQ53 I found an examplke of your customary racism http://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/ACORNs-Muscle-for-Money-does-the-bidding-of-SEIU–50091427.html

    You all may be seeing 3% but the population as a whole is tired of your lame ass victimhood. http://www.gallup.com/poll/121403/Special-Report-Ideologically-Moving.aspx

  • rmrd

    robertgraves, it was Sarah Palin who talked about “Real Americans”, suggesting that there are fake Americans. Joe Klein is the one who appears less apt to believe in fake Americans.
    .
    American patriots can believe that the Iraq War was necessary and will lead to democracy in the Middle East or that it was one of the worse military and political decisions in United states history and made Iran the big elephant in the room.
    .
    Since there are “real Americans, could you name the Fake Americans?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Joe Klein is a citizen of the United States of America, but this doesn’t make him an American, nor does it mean that he’s a patriot.
    .
    Of course it does make him an American.
    Any suggestion that it doesn’t is tantamount to treason….
    See how easy that is?

  • http://robertwaters.wordpress.com/ Bob Waters

    The arrogance of this piece is incredible. And it’s a perfect example of why, in the long run, the elitist vision of Joe Klein and his ilk will be the undoing of the very undemocratic Democratic party and the very illiberal “Progressive” movement.

  • sacredh

    Socialism is our goal. We are well on our way. If more people had jobs, it would be a workers paradise already. It’s so hard to revive a dying thread. Help me out here comrades.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    the elitist vision of Joe Klein and his ilk will be the undoing
    .
    IDIOT POWER!

  • 53_3

    Hell yes, sacred. Let’s take over the world!
    .
    BTW, freeinpa:
    .
    I volunteered to work for ACORN!
    .
    In your face!
    .
    Taste the waste, freeinpa…

  • 53_3

    DITTOHEADS UNITE!
    .
    Or is that:
    .
    DITTOHEADS UNTIE!

  • 53_3

    Bob Waters, freeinpa:
    .
    Hey, you know that ‘sleeping White giant’ that’s supposed to wake up and take the country back?
    .
    It’s still snoozing…

  • 53_3

    sacred:
    .
    They are about as smart as Sarah Palin…

  • sacredh

    I cherish mt right to vote so much that I do it in three different states. Living in a tristate area has it’s advantage. I’d have got to vote twice in my own state if they hadn’t noticed that my drivers license didn’t say Suzie Creamcheese on it.

  • 53_3

    That’s why I joined ACORN sacred:
    .
    I’ve always wanted to help people like you and shoot AK-47′s in the air!

  • rmrd

    freeinpa feel free to bring your slavery message to the Black community as a representative of the GOP. Liberals will love it.
    .
    Also, did you read the entire polling results?

    Conclusion:
    Which way do Americans want to be led? While the new Gallup Poll finds the public reporting a heightened sense of conservatism in its political outlook, Americans’ specific policy positions have not changed much since 2004. To the extent they have, about as many of these positions have become more liberal as more conservative.

    Aside from the trends, Gallup’s recent polling from 2008-2009 indicates that a majority of Americans concur with the Republican Party’s general philosophy on the death penalty, defense spending, gay marriage, the role of government, environmental protection, and handgun legislation. Americans are about as likely to agree with the Republican Party’s general philosophy as they are to agree with the Democratic Party’s in terms of abortion, government activism, government promotion of “traditional” values, taxes, changing the power of labor unions, and certain aspects of the need for healthcare reform. They are more likely to agree with the Democratic Party’s philosophy on other aspects of healthcare reform, embryonic stem-cell research, government regulation of business, the Iraq war, and immigration.
    .
    Again McCain got the same percentage of the White vote as Ronald Reagan and lost the election. Demographics are against the GOP. An African-American voter will not vote for freeinpa.

  • http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/ Ed Darrell

    Maybe more important for academics trying to understand the issue, just what in the world is a “false or artificial American,” which would be those who are not “real” Americans.

    In an era when most voters don’t remember Hubert Humphrey, let us hope Sarah Palin fades faster than Douglas Stringfellow.

  • http://linkthe.com/2009/07/07/times-klein-slams-white-bread-fantasy-of-reagans-morning-in-america/ Time’s Klein Slams ‘White-Bread Fantasy’ of Reagan’s ‘Morning in America’ : linkthe.com

    [...] in America," huffs Time magazine’s Joe Klein in a July 6 Swampland blog post on "Sarah Palin’s America": All this talk about Sarah Palin’s constituency being "real Americans" raises [...]

  • rmrd

    freeinpa
    .
    After the Africans forced the United States into the slave trade statement, we now have………
    You all may be seeing 3% but the population as a whole is tired of your lame ass victimhood.
    .
    Could I ask just who you refer to as playing a victim?

  • 53_3

    rmrd:
    .
    I think he went home, taking his marbles with him.
    .
    That is, whatever was left of the marbles he had…

  • rmrd

    53_3, I think that Conservatives like freeinpa know how inflammatory their words are and actually take delight in them.
    .
    The honest statement about the African Slave trade would have been that Blacks do not want to admit that they were sold into slavery by other Blacks. But he took the cowardly way out and used Liberals don’t want to admit that fact about Slavery instead of Blacks. Of course he would have had to answer how Africans were so willing to work with Whites that the Africans stayed at home while the African continent was divided into states connecting tribes who had no natural connections by the stroke of a pen signing a document on a desk in Europe.
    .
    Then there was the “tired of the blankedy blank victimhood” phrase. Now exactly who does he think is playing the victim? Is it wrong to point out that VP candidate and Governor Sarah Palin has a speech pattern that would get her called ignorant if she were Black? If I point out that Palin believing that there is a “Department of Law” in the White House protecting President Obama from lawsuits by throwing the lawsuits out suggests that Palin’s rise in the GOP is due to an Affirmative Action Program for Conservatives (see Dan Quayle, GW Bush, and Glenn Beck), is that wrong?
    .
    Just recently we have had an Obama as a “spook” picture from the GOP in Tennessee, a gorilla reference to Michelle Obama’s ancestors from the GOP in South Carolina, and laughter at a “coon” reference to Obama on the web page of a young blond female GOP member from Louisiana who is a front-runner to head an organization of young Republicans.
    .
    Do Republicans get viewed with a jaundiced eye in the Black community? Yes.
    Freeinpa’s victimhood statement only serves to reinforce perceptions.

  • ohiolib

    What I want to know is, if Rs support responsibility, why do they blame everyone else (liberals, elitists, the media, etc) for their problems? Ah well. If people like freeper are going to show up, we may as well laugh at them.

  • ctintn

    Liberal hate is interesting to watch. Sad, unproductive, but interesting.

  • ctintn

    Al Sharkton agreed with a caller who said that Palin resigned to try and avoid a scandal involving her in the death of MJ. :) Liberal thinking is starting to be non-existent.

  • 53_3

    “Liberal hate is interesting to watch. Sad, unproductive, but interesting.”
    .
    Hmmm. Would you care to point it out rintintin? You must have the nose for it…

  • ctintn

    Fake Americans are very easy to identify: they do not understand nor do they care to understand the U.S. Constitution either becasue they can not read it or do not care what it says. When it comes time to defend the Constitution thru words or action they are nowhere to be found.

  • ctintn

    You did it for me, 53_3, you did it for me. Thanks.

  • 53_3

    rmrd:
    .
    I was actually very gentle with freeinpa on these issues. I am only because the are doing better now at eviscerating themselves than I could ever do.
    .
    I’m blessed with having many friends and relatives spread far and wide in the Black community who can tell me on a day to day basis what the mood is out there. They keep me informed, and, of course, I asked freeinpa why he didn’t just do the common sense thing and talk to people in the Black community as well.
    .
    He would learn what I did. I can tell exactly where he is coming from because of:
    1) His unwillingness to actually talk to them
    2) His misinformed assumptions about what motivates Black Americans
    3) His willingness to rewrite Black history a la Southern Strategy
    4) His superiority when asked about the motivations of Black Americans
    .
    They all add up to not a pretty picture, and he is typical of those conservatives that currently hold power in the GOP.
    .
    That is not a stereotyping of conservatives any more than my statement that about 40% of Black Americans are conservative is a stereotyping of the Black community.

  • ctintn

    Lets hope it doesn’t take Klein as long to turn on Obama as it did for him to turn on Clinton. We can’t afford the wait.

  • rmrd

    ctintn
    .
    I bet you were good at defending that 3/5 thing in the Constitution and the “curse of Ham” thing in the Bible.
    .
    The aliens from the Sci-fi classic “How To serve Man” have a supermarket serving human parts. An alien comes in to buy human brains. Liberal brains are $10.00 a pound. Independent brains are $15.00 a pound. Conservative brains are $200.00 a pound. “Why are those Conservative brains so high?”, asks the customer. “Because they are so rare”, says the shop owner.

  • 53_3

    Oh, when I called you rintintin?
    .
    How about I spot you an admission that I did insult you, but what I’d like to see is where you find hate in my comments about Civil Right and Black history.
    .
    Of course, you have to understand, rintintin, that you earned your moniker because you spoke of ‘hate’ but the only thing I see here is some good ol’ Southern Strategy codespeak which I’ll serve up to you:
    .
    We are suppressing the “diversity of opinion”*!
    .
    And, rintintin, you would indeed be right, because racial hatred has no place in civil conduct.
    .
    *”Diversity of opinion” is codespeak for racist speech, presented as opinion

  • 53_3

    Hey! rintintin!
    .
    You can always call me “divisive”!

  • 53_3

    rmrd:
    .
    Served properly, he might just get an edumecation, if you know what I mean…

  • ohiolib

    So, ctintn, if someone openly supported a secessionist group, is that person American?

  • ctintn

    :0

  • ctintn

    So, ctintn, if someone openly supported a secessionist group, is that person American?

    For the time-being.

  • ctintn

    I bet you were good at defending that 3/5 thing in the Constitution

    Don’t have to defend it. It is there for you to read.

  • ctintn

    By Sarah Palin:

    Governor Palin Mourns Loss of Fort Richardson Paratroopers

    July 6, 2009, Anchorage, Alaska – Governor Sarah Palin offered her condolences to the family and friends of two Fort Richardson soldiers who died in Afghanistan. Private First Class Aaron E. Fairbairn, 20, of Aberdeen, Washington, died Saturday of injuries sustained from small arms and indirect fire. Private First Class Justin A. Casillas, 19, of Dunnigan, California, also died Saturday in the same attack.

    “These soldiers served with honor and courage,” Governor Palin said. “Both will be remembered as true American heroes. Todd and I offer the families our prayers and support during this difficult time.”

    Both men were assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 509th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division.

    A state flag, along with a letter of condolence, will be sent to the families.

  • ctintn

    I bet you were good at defending that 3/5 thing in the Constitution

    By the way, this is no longer in effect. In your case, the 18th Amendment should be.

  • http://allmortgagetoday.com/blog/?p=8361 Time’s Klein Slams ‘White-Bread Fantasy’ of Reagan’s ‘Morning in America’

    [...] in America," huffs Time magazine’s Joe Klein in a July 6 Swampland blog post on "Sarah Palin’s America": All this talk about Sarah Palin’s constituency being "real Americans" raises [...]

  • http://botd.wordpress.com/2009/07/08/top-posts-1167/ Top Posts « WordPress.com

    [...] Sarah Palin’s America All this talk about Sarah Palin’s constituency being “real Americans” raises the question, yet again, [...] [...]

  • rmrd

    Let’s just turn this over to ctintn, he’ll do more damage to the Conservative image than anyone.

  • ctintn

    As if you care about anyone’s image.

  • ctintn

    Barney, Nancy, Al, Jesse- whose image are you trying to live up to?

  • stewartiii

    Time’s Klein Slams ‘White-Bread Fantasy’ of Reagan’s ‘Morning in America’
    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2009/07/07/times-klein-slams-white-bread-fantasy-reagans-morning-america

  • troxintx

    I followed a link here from Foxnation just out of curiosity knowing full well what to expect from state run media groups groping for sales to stay in business and the elitist, intellectually superior, trendy, progressive, narcissistic, tin god, intolerant fascists the liberals and left really are and you are right – Barack Obama’s America–is a different, more exhilarating, sophisticated and diverse place – as long as one agrees with you. If not, they are, of course, simply stupid, narrow minded, racist, bigoted, republican beasts, that fantasize about a Reagan/Hitler-like white utopia… hmmm, I see. Ok, got it.

  • Mike Licht

    For Sarah Palin so loves Alaska that she’s sacrificing her valuable TITLE.

    See:

    http://notionscapital.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/sarahs-sacrifice/

  • sacredh

    And SHE looked down upon her designer clothes and said “These are nice, gimme more” and the people rejoiced. Then SHE spoke in tongues and the people noticed the fork. Still they rejoiced for they knoweth not what they did. And SHE loved the little children so much that she pumped them out as if by magic. Not really a good idea but hey, SHE’s a breeder.

  • ctintn

    You crucify Palin while your leader is telling you only the things you want to hear. A gifted speaker whose inexperience and overconfidence is showing more every day. Told a group of Russian students yesterday how he met his wife in class when everyone knows he met her at a law firm. Nobody makes that mistake honestly. Just telling everyone what they want to hear. But, keep tuning in to Letterman for your info.

  • http://robertwaters.wordpress.com/ Bob Waters

    On the contrary, Ohiolib. With the exception of a few extremists, GOP rhetoric on immigration makes that distinction just fine. The trouble is Democratic (and media) rhetoric about GOP rhetoric, born of a very strong desire that Republicans be seen as having trouble with that distinction.

  • http://tigerathome.wordpress.com/2009/07/13/sunday-shorts/ Sunday shorts… « The Tiger in DC

    [...] Joe Klein on Real America. All this talk about Sarah Palin’s constituency being “real Americans” raises the [...]

  • jordancfan

    Sarah Palin Resigned In Fear Of Being Nuked By North Koean Nuclear Missiles,

    By: Jordan C. Fan, Prophet of Environment.

    As history has unfolded, Kim Jong-il has proven to be among one the most highly admirable Environment advocates. He has aggressively developed weapons to depend the Environment instead of other manufacturing industries which pollutes the Environment. While the United states has gone out of its way to develop oil fields, pipelines, refineries and other industries to pollute frontier wilderness in Alaska to destroy its Environment. Kim Jong-il has developed nuclear missiles to be within range of Alaska to stop further American migrations there. For this, Kim Jong-il should receive a Nobel Peace Prize of Environment protection. So do Myself as Prophet of Environment also deserve a Nobel Peace Prize.

    When the North Korean nuclear missiles are within range of Alaska its governor was so frightened that she has resigned. Who can really blame Sarah Palin for resigning in fear of her families, relatives, and friends of being nuked. This, in additions to other factors, has proven Palin to be an extremely likable and competent government official and politician.

    Palin must also be admired by the world over as a devoted and loving mother to protect her offsprings against nuclear threat. On the other hand, Barack Obama must be frowned upon as an president who has disregarded the safety of his people especially Alaskans in order to remove his political opponent Sarah Palin from her office. Obama should have given in on Kim Jong-Il’s and withdraw all American civilian and military personnel from Korea and Japan.

    Japan has betrayed all Asian people by becoming a puppet of the United States. The people of many Far Eastern nations had allowed Japanese to invade their countries to expel of European and American Colonialists. Many of those Asian people ended up being persecuted, tortured or executed by their Japanese invaders. Today, while the Japanese have ample power to drive out American invaders who are currently occupying their land, Japan prefer not to do so in exchange for economic prosperity. While the Chinese were overly generous to forgive those World War II Japanese atrocities to their own people, Japanese is still threaten to invade Chinese land for oil at the Diaoyu Islands. For this reason, all American F-22 warplanes in Okinawa must be destroyed. By allowing the Americans a strong foothold in Eastern Asia, the Japanese have threaten the safety and security of all Asians. For this reason, the Japanese must go to Hell when they are so fond of playing “GO”. So are all South Koreans who have betrayed their own country. Japan must reverse to wilderness to protect the Environment there while all Japanese be enslaved in Xinjiang.

    This has confirmed that the Americans especially Democrats and Blacks are extremely chauvinistic racists who must also be frowned upon by the entire world. American liberty, freedom and justice will soon be gone if Obama and his supporters especially Blacks continue to insists on using illegal conspiracy such as Blackmails, harassments, threats of body harm, and corruption against qualified candidates. As far as the Environment is concerned, all Obama supporters should be eliminated.

    Again, Kim Jong-il should receive a Nobel Peace Prize of Environment protection. So do Myself as Prophet of Environment also deserves a Nobel Peace Prize. In addition, the United States must apologized to Kim Jong-il and North Korean for calling them “Axis of Evil.” Simply by cunningly changing leadership, presidents and parties cannot erase American atrocities to the World.

  • http://www.ejtm.com/?p=33 Ken Hoofard, Jr. » Joe Klein to Tea Party Goers – You’re Sarah Palin’s America, You Bunch of Losers

    [...] the skill which enabled him to forensically dissect Governor Palin’s claim to be speaking up for “Real Americans” All this talk about Sarah Palin’s constituency being “real Americans” raises the [...]

blog comments powered by Disqus