In the Arena

How Diplomacy Works

The New York Times is reporting that  Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak may be coming to Washington bearing gifts: a 3-to-6 month freeze on new settlements. It’s not what the international community has been demanding–the East Jerusalem settlements are not included–but it’s close enough for diplomacy. It’s a step in the right direction and it demands some reciprocation from the Arabs, particularly Saudi Arabia. In fact, it is time for the Saudis to pony up something more significant than Ethan Bronner suggests in the Times story–at the very least, the establishment of a Saudi interest section at an amenable embassy in Tel Aviv. (Although it would be nice to retire my second passport, the one I use for travel to countries that refuse to accept Israeli stamps.)

The Saudis have been talking peace for years–since King Abdullah was Prince Abdullah–but refusing to make the slightest of opening gestures to get the process going. Now would be a good time to start: the Saudis, and the other Sunni states, are very concerned about Iran’s government, which now can only be described as a military dictatorship with religious pretensions. A settlement of the Israel-Palestine dispute would reduce Iran’s trouble-making capacity in the region, and enable a strong, if tacit, alliance that would include Israel, backed by the United States, to oppose Iranian provocation (which includes, even now, the provision of rockets and shaped IEDs to rogue elements of Mahdi Army in Iraq).

Indeed, a great many of the pieces necessary to start the middle east peace process are falling into place. Hamas seems interested in being “part of the solution, not part of the problem,” as a prominent Palestinian told me. The Syrians also are willing to talk, since their Hizballah allies in Lebanon lost the election and their best friends, the Iranians, seem intent on withdrawing from the world for a time. 

The missing pieces are Palestinian unity–although there does seem to be some progress in talks between Fatah and Hamas, shepherded by the Egyptians–and Israeli willingness. A temporary settlement freeze, if that is what Barak will propose, may signal that the Netanyahu government is finally beginning to understand the new dynamic, gently forced by the Obama Administration. If the Israelis are really concerned about Iran, a rigorous peace process would seem the best way to unite the region against its enemy. 

Meanwhile, events in Iran continue their depressing course. It seems quite possible that the Ahmadinejad faction, backed by the Revolutionary Guards Corps, have staged an internal coup. As Thomas Erdbrink reports, Grand Ayatollahs in Qom have now begun to issue fatwas in support of the protesters:

“Events that happened have weakened the system,” Grand Ayatollah Abdolkarim Mousavi Ardabili said during a meeting with members of the Guardian Council, the semiofficial Iranian Labor News Agency reported Saturday. “You must hear the objections that the protesters have to the elections. We must let the people speak.”

Another grand ayatollah issued two fatwas, or religious edicts, on Saturday, saying Islam forbids security forces from hitting unarmed people. Grand Ayatollah Asadollah Bayat Zanjani said the protests were Islamic. “These gatherings are the lawful right of the people and their only method for informing the rulers of their requests,” he said.

This requires a change in Swamp policy: no longer will I refer to the leaders of Iran as “the Mullahs.” A fair number, perhaps a majority, of mullahs seem on the side of the angels now. The leaders of Iran seem to be intransigent military thugs, supported by a theocratic sliver, led by the Supreme Leader. In any case, the Middle East negotiations seem a more promising route, for the moment, than attempts to engage Iran. That is a surprise, to say the least.

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  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    JK
    ~
    Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak may be coming to Washington bearing gifts: a 3-to-6 month freeze on new settlements.
    .
    Since when is adherence to international law a gift in diplomacy?
    ~
    It’s a step in the right direction and it demands some reciprocation from the Arabs…
    .
    Did you not just write yesterday that the imminent release of Gilad Shalit by Hamas warrants actionable reciprocation by Israel? Now that they offer something, however measly and presumptuous, you again return to finger pointing at the Arabs.

  • Joe Klein

    Exiled–

    Yes, that’s how diplomacy works. Hamas releases Shalit. The Israelis propose a settlement freeze. Now it’s the Arabs’ turn…And yes, Israel is not in compliance with international law, but neither is the Palestinian rocket attacks on innocent Israelis–the purpose of diplomacy, in this case, is to create new, stable, legal circumstances on the ground.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    JK
    ~
    In my humble opinion, simply agreeing to adhere to law should never be construed as an act of diplomacy, as some gracious manifestation of peaceful intentions. Give-take diplomacy warrants making concessions, not simply playing by the rules. Purported steps towards eradicating illegal activities is not a concession.
    ~
    Thanks for responding, though.

  • afguy

    the purpose of diplomacy, in this case, is to create new, stable, legal circumstances on the ground.
    .
    Define “stable”. “Stable” should mean somewhat permanent.
    .
    The hostage is permanently released. Hamas can’t get him back.
    .
    Israel “proposes” as settlement freeze… not a complete freeze, mind you, and not even effective immediately. And not one they can’t abandon whenever they feel like it.
    .
    What’s “stable” about any of this?

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    afguy
    ~
    Great point…
    .
    Permanent release vs ‘proposed’ temporary adherence to law.
    ~
    Might I add, this ‘proposal’ comes hours after Israel authorized 50 new illegal homes in the Adam settlement in West Bank, according to officials as “only the first part of an expansion plan.” (BBC)
    .
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8124148.stm

  • juniusredivivus

    A very short-term freeze of illegal activity is hardly a gift that demands much response, and certainly nothing permanent. The correct response would be for the Obama govt to note that Israel has begun the process which must lead to the removal of all illegal settlements, and until such removal is underway that it should not expect anything but temporary concessions. As matters stand, Israel is offering very little indeed, and it would be foolish to respond with much enthusiasm. We’ve already seen Netanyahu lay out his vision – and it comes down to a token two-state solution, humiliation of the Palestinians, and no redress for Israel’s abominable behavior over the last 40 years. What we need is more pressure from Obama and the international community, less praise for grudging, minimal and essentially meaningless gestures.

  • afguy

    Might I add, this ‘proposal’ comes hours after Israel authorized 50 new illegal homes in the Adam settlement in West Bank, according to officials as “only the first part of an expansion plan.” (BBC)
    .
    neo,
    .
    By the time Israel gets around to formally agreeing to this, shovels of dirt could have been turned over at 1000 new sites, thereby making them existing developments not covered by the new “freeze”.
    .
    “Cynical” doesn’t even BEGIN to cover my frame of mind on this… I’ll believe progress is happening when I start to see bulldozers leveling some of the more outrageously illegal settlements.

  • juniusredivivus

    This requires a change in Swamp policy: no longer will I refer to the leaders of Iran as “the Mullahs.” A fair number, perhaps a majority, of mullahs seem on the side of the angels now. The leaders of Iran seem to be intransigent military thugs, supported by a theocratic sliver, led by the Supreme Leader.

    Well, since the Supreme Leader and Co sound so like the modern GOP, which is after all, praying for their success, perhaps you should refer to the hardline theocrats as GOP mullahs, and the democratic clerics as Iranian mullahs?

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    I were wishin’ thar’d be no meetin’ wi’ Netanyahu until Israel moves unilaterally an’ declares – rather than’ “proposin’” – a permanent freeze on all settlements, an’ a timeline fer’ abandonin’ th’ illegal ones they be occupyin’ now.
    .
    We be needin’ t’ stop actin’ as if th’ hollow words o’ th’ Israeli govt. be meanin’ anythin’, an’ demand concrete action b’fore they be gettin’ a meetin’ wi’ th’ President.
    .
    If Israel be actual makin’ concrete good-faith efforts, THEN th’ Saudis an’ th’ Syrians an’ th’ Palestinians be bound t’ reciprocate, bu’ a’ this point, thar be nothin’ t’ reciprocate to, except some wiggly puff-o-smoke soundin’ empty words.
    .
    Arrgh!

  • afguy

    Arrgh!
    .
    pirate wench,
    .
    You took the “Argh!” right out of my mouth.
    .
    In this case, “talk” is most definitely CHEAP!!
    .
    Like I said, when I see IDF bulldozers on the streets of these settlements (as has happened in the past, mind you) to take out construction that the Israeli Supreme Court has determined to be illegal (in other words, to start enforcing the determinations of their OWN courts), THEN I’ll think they’re getting serious about this.
    .
    Until then, just “Argh!”

  • bitterpill8

    Joe: while I note that you see the “concession” on temporary settlement expansion as a response to Pres Obama’s call I see it as another classic move on Israel’s part to engage in bafflegab. In sinc the Saudis will come up with their own version of bafflegab.

    How can we be sure that any of the players are serious when they seem to engage in shadow dancing?

    I think Ehud Barak is wasting a lot of gasoline making an unnecassary trip. All it does is take up a lot of time for wordsmiths to prepare some of the more preposterous statements that come out of State, the White House and the Special envoys.

  • cfukara

    ” .. A fair number, perhaps a majority, of mullahs seem on the side of the angels now. ..”

    Pardon me, if it is patently clear.
    Are WE on the side of “angels”?

  • juniusredivivus

    Interesting that Joe failed to cite the crucial fact:
    .
    Israel would be open to a complete freeze of settlement building in the West Bank for three to six months as part of a broad Middle East peace endeavor that included a Palestinian agreement to negotiate an end to the conflict and confidence-building steps by major Arab nations[...] The freeze would not affect construction that was already under way, nor include East Jerusalem. But it would mean that during the specified time no construction of any kind could start even in the close-in settlement blocks that Israel expects to keep in any future two-state agreement with the Palestinians.
    .
    So this isn’t really a freeze at all. It’s Netanyahu’s shameless attempt to lie and cheat his way to a position where he seems reasonable, while changing nothing of substance. Joe, there is no basis for diplomacy or a deal in this. In fact, it’s an insult. Obama should offer nothing in return, but a terse acknowledgment, while making clear that this sort of childish duplicity is unacceptable.

  • afguy

    Are WE on the side of “angels”?
    .
    cfukara,
    .
    Ummm… that would be no. Don’t think we can figure out what (or whose) side we are on. H*ll, we can’t even figure out where our true “interests” lie. We made this “bed” by tying our foreign policy to an ideology, and NOW we’re stuck with it.
    .
    Used to be we were all for fairness among the participants.
    .
    Now… who knows what we stand for?

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    Sad an’ brutal as th’ situation in Iran be, I don’t be believin’ we be havin’ a ri’ t’ be on ANY side.
    .
    First, this be an internal Iranian problem tha’ they be needin’ t’ be settlin’ themselves (fer th’ record, unfortunate, I be expectin’ another Tienamen (sp?) Square scenario t’ be playin’ out, wi’ th’ same sort o’ aftermath).
    .
    Second, we be not in a position t’ be any help wha’soever except t’ be becomin’ an excuse fer th’ thugs t’ further bruatlize an’ blame us fer it. Thar be NOTHIN’ we be capable o’ doin’ tha’ would be o’ any help, other than come extreme careful chosen words. We be needin’ t’ deal wi’ whoever comes out o’ this thing, like it or no.
    .
    Reality be ri’ sad an’ depressin’ in times th’ likes o’ these.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    HEY mates!

    I think we be havin’ paragraph breaks now!

    Arrgh?

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    Nope, never mind – thar be extra spaces when usin th’ “.” an’ none wi’ out – sorry fer th’ premature ‘appiness ;(.
    .
    YARR!

  • juniusredivivus

    Arrgh and yarr, pirate wench. Poor old spob has been demanding that I explain what he does on the Ricci case thread. Maybe you can communicate more clearly with the poor little beast?

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    ‘r per’aps it just be me medication causin’ me t’ notice somethin’ tha’ b’forehand I were missin…
    .
    Arrgh.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    junius –
    .
    Just be givin’ ‘im th’ ole’ go f yerself one time, an’ then be done wi’ ‘im…I be tirin’ o’ bein’ th’ onliest one t’ be havin’ th’ chore.
    .
    Arrgh!

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    I think Stuart be tirin’ o’ me doin’ it…an’ some others ‘ere – I be standin’ accused o’ engagin’ trolls ;O!

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    Oh, an’
    .
    YARR!

  • afguy

    Just be givin’ ‘im th’ ole’ go f yerself one time, an’ then be done wi’ ‘im…I be tirin’ o’ bein’ th’ onliest one t’ be havin’ th’ chore.
    .
    It doesn’t work, pirate wench . . . methinks he likes the abuse.
    .
    Giving him the cold shoulder when he gets too outrageous seems to be the only thing that works. Deprive him of the attention he so badly craves… it’s the ONLY thing that works.

  • juniusredivivus

    Pirate wench, I’ve spent a decent amount of time on the thread explaining to him what he does, and the idiot keeps on idioting. Maybe I lack your fine style with a cutlass?

  • pintortwo

    …Iranian provocation (which includes, even now, the provision of rockets and shaped IEDs to rogue elements of Mahdi Army in Iraq).
    .
    .
    Links, examples?
    .
    The claim that Iran provides arms to the Iraqi insurgency is dubious, at best:
    .
    There was something interesting missing from Maj. Gen. Kevin Bergner’s introductory remarks to journalists at his regular news briefing in Baghdad on Wednesday: the word “Iran,” or any form of it. It was especially striking as Bergner, the U.S. military spokesman here, announced the extraordinary list of weapons and munitions that have been uncovered in recent weeks since fighting erupted between Iraqi and U.S. security forces and Shiite militiamen.
    .
    (snip)
    .
    Not once did Bergner point the finger at Iran for any of these weapons and munitions, which is a striking change from just a couple of weeks ago when U.S. military officials here and at the Pentagon were saying that caches found in Basra in particular had revealed Iranian-made arms manufactured as recently as this year. They say the majority of rockets being fired at U.S. bases, including Baghdad’s Green Zone, are launched by militiamen receiving training, arms and other aid from Iran.
    .
    (snip)
    .
    A plan to show some alleged Iranian-supplied explosives to journalists last week in Karbala and then destroy them was canceled after the United States realized none of them was from Iran. A U.S. military spokesman attributed the confusion to a misunderstanding that emerged after an Iraqi Army general in Karbala erroneously reported the items were of Iranian origin.
    .
    When U.S. explosives experts went to investigate, they discovered they were not Iranian after all.

  • 53_3

    I’m sorry Joe, but I’ll have to disagree with you on the Saudis, who are no angels, of course:
    .
    As is typical of the Israelis, a 3 to 6 month “suspension” will probably exclude the current stuff (this is only the most recent):
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8124148.stm
    .
    Then of course, even if the Saudis pony up something, they will think of something to nullify the agreement.
    .
    I think that there should be no compromise on the theft of land. None whatsoever.
    .
    Hold Israel accountable for it’s crimes against humanity. Nothing more, nothing less.

  • 53_3

    Joe:
    .
    “and enable a strong, if tacit, alliance that would include Israel, backed by the United States, to oppose Iranian provocation”
    .
    I don’t know what you are smoking, and usually, you have been spot on, but not on this one.
    .
    By the way, does this mean that the Arab states start “tacitly” accepting the kind of things that Avigdor Lieberman is famous for? And as an added legitimate question to this line of reasoning, just when is Barak Obama going to ask David Duke to participate in the government, such as the Civil Rights section of the DOJ?”

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    junius –
    .
    Spendin’ any amount o’ time explainin’ t’ spongy be yer problem – ye can’t explain a thing to ‘im b’cause he be not ‘ere t’ be explained to – he be here t’ hijack th’ thread, an spread ‘is poison – fer nothin’ else.
    .
    Give up th’ tryin’ t’ explain, me matey, just give it up.
    .
    Arrgh!

  • 53_3

    “And yes, Israel is not in compliance with international law, but neither is the Palestinian rocket attacks on innocent Israelis–the purpose of diplomacy, in this case, is to create new, stable, legal circumstances on the ground.”
    .
    And just how would you, on top of this situation:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8123487.stm
    .
    already imposed by Israel, hold Hamas alone accountable, Joe? Send in the troops to kill every third Gazan*?
    .
    *I’m not suggesting that Israel would ever do something like that, but look, all Gazans are being already punished for what Hamas is doing with the rockets, so there isn’t anything one can do much worse than the collective punishment that is itself not working being visited on the Gazans except just killing ‘em that one can do.
    .
    Try to visit the realms of possibility, Joe!

  • 53_3

    junius:
    .
    She’s right, Pirate Wench is, I mean.
    .
    Next to the Jena thing, the Ricci thing is spob’s favorite axe to grind.
    .
    He does not like minorities very much, and you will never be able to reason with him!

  • pintortwo

    JK, I appreciate your excellent analysis of US diplomacy in the Middle East. However, I feel that you’ve fallen victim to hyperbole and propaganda a few times in recent weeks. You’ve suggested that Iran is not complying with their disclosure obligations, have an undisclosed nuclear weapons program, and now that they are arming Iraqi insurgents. Iran is a signatory to the NPT, to which they have met all obligations- they are not bound by the Additional Protocols (no treaty was signed; perhaps they would be willing to comply via negotiations). The NIE suggests that Iran may have had a nuclear weapons program which was stopped in ’03- many critics believe that this is propaganda aimed at spinning the media narrative. I’ve addressed the insurgency issue above.
    .
    I apologize to my fellow commenters for staying on this tangential issue and, perhaps, sidetracking the discussion (the post and comments are, imo, very good), but I feel it is important.

  • cfukara

    Behold, here comes the peaceful demonstrators. The state police confront them. The police brutalize the demonstrators and haul some to jail.
    Pious Joe Klein is outraged.
    Then duplicitous Joe Klein remembers that he has to earn a living. He has second thoughts: Brutalizing peaceful demonstrators may even be heavenly. If:

    . USA does it and imprisons protesters like Rev Jesse Jackson: It is all good.
    . Israel does it – and even kills some protesting Palestinians: It is heavenly.
    . Kenya does it and kills thousands of reform demonstrators: It is a necessary evil.
    . Iran does it: Unforgivable! Outrageous! O, unleash the fire and brimstone! Invade them. Brutalize them. Torture them. Kill them!

    The world of USA’s MSM

  • cfukara

    —off topic, a day in the world of duplicity or rather, diplomacy.

    On Iran:
    ” .. Police (in Iran) .. have taken increasingly harsh measures against the demonstrators, prompting widespread international criticism. ..”
    Our police in USA take harsh measures against demonstrators – without the international criticism.
    Our friends, the Kenyans, take very harsh measures against reform demonstrators – and kill thousands of them – with hardly any international criticism. Why?
    And Israel is known for harsh measures taken against the Palestinian demonstrators – including destruction of property, torture and killings. Where is the international criticism? Where is the pious outrage from the USA?

    .

    With regard to the recount of votes in Iran on Monday:

    ” .. U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Monday questioned the recount’s utility. “They have a huge credibility gap with their own people ..”"

    Clinton, the Bosnia war heroine, knows all about “credibilty gap” in Iran. How did she come by THAT data?

    We are admantly against a re-count in Iran. Why?
    Had the recount turned out otherwise in favour of Moussavi, Clinton would probably be singing a different tune regarding the validity of that recount and how the recount vindicates the loser Mousavi’s insolence. Is a recount admissible only if it turns out in OUR favor? But its presidential election is Iran’s sovereign affair and we do not interferer in Iran’s internal affairs, right? Duplicity.

    A hint of more duplicity: One wonders why we are for re-run in Iran while we were adamantly against a re-count and a re-run in Kenya’s presidential elections in 2007 – where our man, the loser, declared himself the winner and, in the middle of the night, swore himself into office.
    Couldn’t we hatch a sure plan to put our man into the presidency in Kenya in case of a re-count or a re-run?
    Do we have a sure plan of putting our Moussavi in power in Iran in case of a re-run?

    Did someone say “CHANGE”?

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090629/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_election

  • cfukara

    June 29, 2009, “Israel has approved the construction of 50 new housing units in a Jewish settlement in the occupied West Bank.”
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8124148.stm

    It is conceivable to propose that Americans – including the hard-working, very hard-working Appalachian hillbillies – are culpable in Israel’s crimes against humanity: The tax dollars from the USA is a critical enabling factor in directly and/or indirectly enable Israel’s insolence against Americans and America’s interests.

    .

    “Fireworks over Baghdad as Iraqis take over cities”!
    Those people sure have a distressing way of welcoming heroes . ..
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090629/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    cfukara
    ~
    The massive amounts of US taxpayers’ dollars which have and continue to aid Israel’s illegal actions are no doubt indicative of American culpability and complicity. President Obama’s recent pledge of $30 billion over the next 10 years illustrates America’s commitment to continued negligence. Unfortunately, Americans’ lethargic pursuit of the truth and MSM’s failure to contradict AIPAC/Israel’s propaganda ensures that this cycle will remain unbroken for some time. The American public is largely misinformed, however, and thus is not intentionally culpable, yet continue tangential complicity.

  • yutsano

    C-Fuk:
    -
    I am only going to say this once.
    -
    (ahem)
    -
    WHAT IS HAPPENING IN IRAN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE UNITED STATES!!!
    -
    Capice?

  • jcapan

    This one’s for C-Fuk:
    ~
    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/06/28-10
    ~
    Thoughts?

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Yutsano
    ~
    Sorry to do this, but I hate to see the butchery of my beloved second-language. As such:
    .
    capisci? = do you understand?…
    capito? = understood?…
    .
    The form to which you attempt to be writing would be ‘capisci,’ however, the Napolitan dialect, often used by Italian-Americans, would drop the ‘i’ while retaining the English ‘sh’ sound.
    ~

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    And, true to karma, I botched that…
    *The form which you appear to be writing
    ~
    Please take no offense, Yutsano…

  • cfukara

    Exiled_At_Home: ” .. President Obama’s recent pledge of $30 billion over the next 10 years illustrates America’s commitment to continued negligence. “

    There was a time we dared dream about “CHANGE”.
    President Obama could have pledged 30 million to brighten the future of the over 30 million starving American kids. NO. The constitutional scholar finds it more constitutionally worthwhile to let Americans starve while he assists and provides diplomatic comfort to vindictive, vicious settlers bent on victimizing other humans. Yet our patriotic hillbillies were NOT asked to vote on that sizable expenditure of their resources. [Emmanuel and the AIPAC want it, so Israel gets it.]

    We are fair and we are exporting American values, right? What did the Israel do to earn $30 billion? What aere we getting for it other that the specter of out POTUS constantly dissed and compromised? [Americans are not a bunch of masochistic gentiles, right?]

    e are fair and we are exporting American values, right?
    Now, President Obama would rather cart $30 billion of the American taxpayer’s funds to Israel than remit it to Nigeria. That is roughly the amount of (fair) UNPAID taxes – that the oil companies (who declare obscene windfall profits every quarter) will get away with before his (first) term is over. [Take it from Africa and give to Israel? Gosh!]

    I can think of better use for $30 billion: How about using that amount as a down-payment on a terrible blood debt owed. You see, there is the matter of reparations for the trans-Atlantic trade in human cargo. More that 60 million lives’ worth. [And that is somewhat more that the 6 million figure claimed by the Jews who get the billions of dollars, right? Unless of course, the Africans are not as worthy.]

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    cfukara
    ~
    From the Denver Post, a Council for the National Interest ad relating to American financial funding of Israel’s illegal statuses while we suffer from the economic crisis at home…
    .
    http://cnifoundation.org/images/stories/Denver_Post_ad_large.jpg
    ~

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)
  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    Joe Klein
    ~
    In light of the substance of today’s story, including this gem:
    .
    …Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak may be coming to Washington bearing gifts: a 3-to-6 month freeze on new settlements.
    .
    And then this…
    .
    It’s a step in the right direction and it demands some reciprocation from the Arabs…
    .
    In addition to your specific response to me in which you say:
    .
    That’s how diplomacy works. Hamas releases Shalit. The Israelis propose a settlement freeze. Now it’s the Arabs’ turn.
    .
    …I feel obligated to point out the blatant reversal on your part from your opinion voiced in the June 1, 2009 post “Crazy Arabs, Crazy Jews,” in which you replied to this statement from Marty Peretz:
    .
    But the idea of stopping all construction in all settlements means that once again the Israelis will be ceding something in advance and for nothing in return.
    .
    Your reply went like this (emphasis added):
    .
    Wait a minute. Israel is doing something illegal here. It is taking territory that the rest of the world, without exception, considers Palestinian. This is like saying that someone who steals your car is entitled to keep it unless you agree to give him something else. The best thing to do when you’re doing something illegal–unless additional thievery is on your mind–is to stop doing it. Period.
    ~
    This begs the question, why it was so necessary on June 1, 2009 that Israel cease illegal activities simply because they are illegal without expectation of any reciprocation, while today a proposed and temporary cessation of illegal settlement is construed by you as a ‘diplomatic gift’ demanding a subsequent Arab gesture?
    .
    Could it have anything to do with the fact that Marty Peretz, in your words, wrote that [your] position on Israel was held merely to gain access to cocktail parties on the Upper West Side of Manhattan? Were you simply harboring a sense of injured ego and thus felt the need to lash out at Mr. Peretz’s irrational analysis of Israeli actions, while all the while holding those very same views yourself?
    ~

  • jcapan

    N-R, just a heads-up, but Joe paid attn. to the thread for all of 6 minutes today (from your 11:34am post to exactly 11:40 when he clicked submit). I think he’s contractually obligated to respond once or twice a week (though this in no way explains AS’s behavior).
    ~
    Seriously though, scroll back through JK’s posts–he observes us for a few minutes, pens a concise rejoinder and moves on. So, in the event you find his engagment rewarding, it pays to be first.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    JC
    ~
    Have you ever seen “Occupation 101″?

  • cfukara

    “Occupation 101″ available to watch online in various formats. Now, decision time: Do I spend an hour watching soap or this?

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    cfukara
    ~
    May I offer a third option?
    .
    Forget boring soaps, forget gritty, shocking reality, such as “Occupation 101,” and opt for our trusty friend, propaganda. Its entertaining and goes down smooth, might I suggest, Pierre Rehov’s “Suicide Killers”?

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    ~
    In all seriousness, though, great article…
    http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090124.htm
    .
    And a debate between Chomsky and Dershowitz…
    http://www.democracynow.org/2005/12/23/noam_chomsky_v_alan_dershowitz_a
    ~

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    JC, C-Fuk
    ~
    I would like your honest opinions on Noam Chomsky. While he is rightly considered a champion of the Palestinian cause and has furthered, more than any other intellectual, the documentation of the transgressions perpetrated against the Palestinians and refutation of the perpetuated false equivalences in allocating culpability, Chomsky appears to unequivocally deflect the ultimate blame away from Israel itself and onto the United States. While American complicity is undeniable, the inherent problem has little to do with any real American interest and nearly everything to do with Israeli-Zionist expansionist goals. Yet, it has troubled me over the years how Chomsky always reverts the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to an indictment of American imperialism. This is not wholly unfounded, but to largely reject Israeli guilt while making such an assertion strikes me as either entirely naive or intentional dishonest. As a young man Chomsky was a committed Zionist, albeit rarely discussed. Do either of you agree that Chomsky is torn between his humanity, evident in his views on the Palestinians, and his loyalty to Israel, illustrated by evasively deflecting Israeli guilt upon the United States?
    ~
    I have always respected Noam Chomsky and have considered him one of the foremost experts on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. However, I simply cannot reconcile his defense of Israel, by way of his omission of explicit guilt, with his sense of Palestinian righteousness. This has always struck me as an inherently contradictory standpoint, however relevant and accurate his documentation has been. What say the two of you?

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    It’s like a bleeding echo chamber in here of anti-Israeli bigotry.

    Anyone living in this country who is not taking up the cause of the Native Americans, but _is_ b!tching about how Israel is handling the Palestinian issue is a f’king hypocrite. Just because the Native Americans gave up their guns doesn’t mean they abandoned their rightful claims on this land that you squatters now occupy. From the first handful of trinkets for Manhattan, up through the mid-1960s when hundreds of Seneca families were forcibly removed from their land, to even today, when New York state tries every legal trick in the book to try to prevent or tax Seneca commerce protected by treaty, the various governments of this country have a disgusting, sordid, inexcusable history of slaughtering the red man or cheating him out of what is rightfully his. Where is the righteous indignation about what our own government has done and continues to do toward our indigenous people – people who have an unquestioned history of stewardship of this land?

    As for my earlier statements, I stand by them: prove me wrong. If the Arabs wanted peace, they could make it happen, without firing a single rocket. From all appearances, they don’t want peace. When Arafat walked out on Albright – a truth you conveniently and persistently overlook, neo – and called for his second intifada, where were all the protesters saying, “They’re giving us everything we wanted! No, go back to the bargaining table!”? Instead, the locals picked up rocks, fired rockets, targeted babies, barbarically slaughtered wayward teenagers, and engaged in all manner of violence. Actions speak louder than words.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    There is a reason Arabs generally oppose peace, and it is not because they are inherently more violent than anyone else. It stems from the undeniable fact that peace, when offered by Israel, comes with the condition of utter rejection both of the right to self-preservation and functionality of a state, coupled with Israel’s refusal to return illegally occupied and annexed lands and refusal to remove its 500,000 illegal settlers. I can’t even begin to describe this again for you MNG, so please just read some of the following:
    ~
    Noam Chomsky’s “Fateful Triangle”
    Jummy Carter’s “Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid”
    Avi Shlaim’s “How Israel Brought Gaza to the Brink of Humanitarian Disaster”
    ~
    If you cannot see Israel’s culpability in destroying any semblance of a functioning territory in Gaza, if you cannot see the extreme savagery enacted upon the Palestinians, if you cannot see the blatant illegal status of much of Israel’s conduct, if you cannot see these things and only focus on Palestinian violence while refusing to acknowledge the roots causes of such, than you will continue to cling to your misguided views. I cannot help you, MNG, only you can do that. Do some research please.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly neo)

    MSN
    ~
    Might I add, The Israeli Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt.

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