When Health Insurance Isn’t Health Insurance (Cont’d.)

This is why any Senator who leaves the “reform” of the system in the hands of the interests who caused the problem should be subjected to involuntary organ donation. After that, though, just how do we undertake media malpractice reform?

Has Kent Conrad or Ben Nelson seen this? I doubt it. Not surprised CNN has not covered this: perhaps a word to Dr Gupta and Dr Cohen??? They actually have a health segment but I have never seen a serious and prolonged debate on health care in their segment.

KT: If you keep running with this kind story you’re going to wind up being center-left. Come over to the Dark Side. We have cookies.

I’d like to ask Kent Conrad, Ben Nelson et al. if they are willing to give up their publicly funded health insurance. And instead of quaking in their boots, and bleating about compromise and bipartisanship, I’d like the Dem leadership to tell those who are threatening to filibuster a reform that is supported by a large majority of the American people, to bring it on.

KT – be ye havin’ any numbers regardin’ signatures t’ Sanders’ petition fer’ single-pay? Tha’ seems t’ be existin’ in th’ blogosphere only…no mention a’ all in th’ scurvy TeeVee MSM.
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I be thankin’ ye, lass!
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Arrgh!

We be havin’ cookies??? Whar be they, lad – I were never offered even a crumb! Be they only fer enticin’ fair weather leftie-leaners who be then abandonin’ ship when th’ waves start a-poundin’ (‘r, in th’ case o’ th’ congress, when th’ money starts a-rainin’ down)?
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Not speakin’ o’ KT partic’lar…just musin’ ’bout wha’ type o’ crew we be buildin’…
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Arrgh!

Karen,

This is one way it happens and really egregious, another way is what happened to us:

In 2003 my husband was diagnosed with cancer. He underwent an expensive surgery ($80,000) and returned to work. Six months later his employer (of 10 years) laid him off. Coincidence? There is great pressure on employers to keep health insurance costs down. One way to do that is to make sure you don’t employ people who need insurance.

I was a stay at home Mom, so we went on Cobra, paying $800 per month until our savings ran out. Then we went on Minnesota Care for 3 months. We qualified only because we made almost nothing. I found work, but we were afraid to put my husband on the work plan, because if he had a claim they might lay me off, but eventually we had to do it. I talked to my very understanding employer and she agreed to put him on our plan. That was in 2004. Because we went on three different plans during that time we ended up with over $10,000 in out-of-pocket expenses as we moved from one plan to another.

In 2007 his cancer reoccurred. He had another operation. This one was more expensive because he came down with a MRSA staph infection which required even more hospital time.

The insurance premiums at my job doubled. We now pay over $600 per month, with my employer also paying $600. We pay $1500 out-of-pocket and $3500 deductible. My husband’s latest CAT scan cost us $1200 and he will need another in 3-4 months because it looks like there is re-growth of his cancer and we have to decide on whether to start Chemo. I don’t even want to think about how much that medication is going to cost us.

At this point I make $55,0000 gross per year. We are a family of four. I pay $7200 per year for insurance, plus the additional cost for CAT scans and medicine which varies, but is often our “out of pocket” plus our deductible, which adds an additional $5000. This means our health care costs are about 22% of my gross wages.

It’s almost impossible to make ends meet with these kinds of costs. I have had no raises in 3 years because my employer keeps having to pay more and more just to insure me and I feel like that money is acting as my “pay raise.” The Obama plan that so many have derided was the first pay increase I’ve had in that time and the extra $80 is greatly appreciated by our family.

If I were to lose my job or insurance what would we do? This situation is intolerable in a wealthy country like ours. If there is no public option and I lose my health insurance or the small business I work for goes under what insurance plan would we be able to afford and who would insure us? I know that if we do not let our insurance lapse they can’t turn us down, but our reserves are gone, and keeping up on insurance premiums without an employer’s help would be almost impossible now.

Thanks for your repeated posting on this Karen. (And thanks to you and Jay for getting me back online here)

Great job, KT.
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Crossposted from KT’s previous thread, some thoughts from a friend:
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Three points about “health care reform”:
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First, no one is talking about how many Americans are ALREADY on Federal health care, with the government as payer. These would include ALL US military and their families, ALL retired US military and their families, ALL federal employees and their families, active and retired whether Executive, Legislative, or Judicial branches, ALL Medicare and Medicaid recipients, ALL Federal prisoners.
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Toss in ALL state and local government employees, and it’s a heck of a large number. NO ONE IS TOTALLING THIS CROWD!
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If you put the UNINSURED on ONE side, and the GOVERNMENTALLY INSURED on the other, who’s left? Let’s see the numbers!
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Second, the President has already endorsed the Federal Direct Student Loan Program, originated and operated by civil servants in the Department of Education. This is because it’s simpler, cheaper, and probably fairer. The parallels with single payer health insurance are PALPABLE, but NO ONE is talking about them. Why not?
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Third, and very important, SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN receive VERY GENEROUS health care benefits, and are not taxed for them, and they’re paid for BY THE GOVERNMENT, and WHO ARE THEY to deny similar benefits to others? Are they THAT MUCH BETTER THAN WE ARE??
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It is important to keep mentioning all three points, especially the last, because we need to open the OVERTON WINDOW to a wider public discussion! Check it out! Get with it!!

It’s time to rub the legislators’ noses in this. I’m going to sit down tonight, when I will have the time, and send emails and/or letters to my senators, my congressman, Baucus, Nelson, Conrad, and some others whose names I expect to dawn on me between now and then. If the US has “the best health care system in the world,” God help the world.
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Those trillion-dollar price tags are scaring everyone, but I’m more scared of finding myself or someone I love bankrupted by medical bills. That’s unlikely in my case, as I’m a still-working federal employee old enough to have Medicare as well as the feds’ Blue Cross program, but my son may never be able to get insurance to cover his broken leg if his COBRA policy runs out and he can’t get full coverage through his next employer.
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The solution (there is one, isn’t there?) seems to be to wring the fat out of medical procedures and charges. McAllen, Texas, ought to be a rallying cry for anyone who wants a health care plan that’s both comprehensive and affordable. Ordinary American labor unions are frequently excoriated for featherbedding. How about the AMA? Every time someone suggests doing away with unnecessary tests and procedures, the cry of “rationing” goes up. I don’t see anything wrong with rationing procedures that do no good. I’d ration them down to zero.
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It sure looks as if our politicians would rather water down the plan than do what needs doing. Maybe it’s time for demonstrations in the street. If it can get Iran a new government (and maybe it can), it might get us a real health care system, one that takes care of the patients’ well-being instead of the providers’ pocketbooks.

KT, I hope you don’t mind, but this here post of yours will be cross posted on my “clippings” blog at 11:59 this morning, with a thread focsuing on health care.
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Just trying to get the widest possible audience for this stuff. And it was great for Begala to point out that some people in the media are doing there job (as perceived by the Constitution that is).

pirate wench: The cookie jar in this household is always full. Cookies are handed out freely to all those who crossover (you’re there already and entitled to cookies whenever you want). It’s the big brick house on top of the hill. You can’t miss it. It’s the one with all the flowers and windchimes hanging in the trees. Beware, there be REAL libruls here.

I be approachin’ despair regardin’ health care reform. It be in th’ bag fer corporate health, mateys, an’ nothin’ th’ majority o’ Americans want be considered on th’ horizon.
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We be headin’ straight fer th’ rocks, an instead o’ steerin’ th’ ship clear, th’ crew (an’ th’ cap’n, I be suspectin’), be guzzlin’ th’ rum rations an’ feedin’ th’ rest o’ us watered-down bilge slop – an’ tellin’ us t’ drink up ‘r shut up!
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If only we still be capable o’ mutiny, mates, we mi’ have a chance, bu’ all th’ spunk o’ th’ crew were expended bringin’ th’ new cap’n aboard an’ all tha’ be remainin’ now be impotent rage typed onto a bloody screen.
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We lost th’ will t’ take t’ th’ streets, we lost th’ will t’ send th’ thieves packin’ a’ th’ end o’ their enlistment, we lost th’ power t’ tell ‘r hear th’ truth, we lost th’ will t’ do much o’ anythin’ besides bend over an’ take it. We lost pret’ much any chance o’ a hand on th’ tiller t’ th’ scabrous rum-runnin’ corporate privateers!
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I’d be sick abou’ it, bu’ then me coverage’d only be canceled.
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YARR!

wvng: please!

Bobell –
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I were writin’ all me representatives – Democratic representatives, th’ thole lot – las’ week, an’ th’ only response I were receivin’ were a request fer’ more money. Tha’ be such a bloody acc’rate shot o’ th’ situation – th’ money be callin’ th’ shots!
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YARR!

KT, I really should remember that you are as passionate about this issue as anyone. Thanks for all you do.

[...] not familiar with it,”Swampland” is the Time Magazine blog site. This morning, a reader had this to say on the topic of health care reform: Three points about “health care reform”:First, no one is talking about how many Americans are [...]

wvng: no elected official should live any better than our meanest citizen.

wvng – just copied ye to me myspace page t’ combat th’ lies an’ distortions a wingnut family member been bombardin’ us wi’ – thanks, me hearty!
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Arrgh!

Swampcritters:
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Here is a better handle on the uninsured. The 47 million number is old and dates back to late 2006:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/04/uninsured.epidemic.obama/

Keep in mind, like here in Washington state, many people are being purged from state subsidized health care plans to save costs. According to this, our uninsured jumped 21%:
http://www.khq.com/global/story.asp?s=10496729

When can we expect to see Time magazine promote the millions of horror stories from victims of socialized medicine in countries with socialized medicine? Answer: Never.

Someone put up a petition t’ rescind health insurance for members o’ congress until they figure out a way t’ extend their privilege t’ th’ rest o’ us (I be lackin th’ skills t’ do it) – I’ll be signin’ an’ passin’ it on!
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O’ course, th’ corporate interests will pick ‘em up t’ keep ‘em in their pockets…bu’ if they be still capable o’ bein’ shamed, we got t’ start shamin’ ‘em!
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If th’ protestors in Iran can be makin effective use o’ technology t’ be breakin’ their plight out o’ th’ net an’ b’fore th’ world, we ought t’ be capable o’ doin’ th’ same t’ make our own gov’t pay attention!
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YARR!

53_3: Thanks for that link. And of course many who are “insured” are not actually insured. Kind of like how the jobless numbers exclude a large number of people who can’t find a job.

Seems as though there are players throughout the government. The Philadelphia Inquirer had an editorial on Sunday pointing out a finding from this study from the Center for Public Integrity. It seems that drug manufacturers not only treat doctors to trips and expensive meals, they treat the Pentagon as well.
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“The health-care industry paid for 40% of all free trips taken by Pentagon officials in the past decade. … All told, drug companies and medical device firms spent about $10 million on more than 8,700 trips for Defense Dept doctors, med researchers, pharmacists, and others. … Pentagon’s budget for prescrip medicals tripled from FY 2000 to 2006, to $6.2 billion … accounting for 2% of all drug sales nationally.”
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Trips to such spots as San Diego, Las Vegas, Honolulu, and Venice, Italy were included in trips funded by outside companies as well as pharma including Sony, Nike, and toy-maker Matel.
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http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/48667132.html
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http://www.publicintegrity.org/news/entry/1435/

Wha’ be th’ contributions o’ th’ industry t’ specific members o’ Congress, BTW?
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It be seemin’ t’ me tha’ whenever one o’ ‘em turns up t’ spout th’ latest in fear-mongerin’ there ought t’ be full disclosure regardin’ where their fundin’ be comin from.
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Th’ Boner fer instance…how much o’ ‘is money be comin’ fr’m th’ interests ‘e be shillin’ fer? An’ th’ rest o’ ‘em? It’d be addin’ more’n a grain o’ salt t’ their message. I be thinkin’.
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Notice how we haven’t heard much o’ a peep from Daschle followin’ th’ disclosure regardin’ ‘is own interests?
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YARR!

Well, here be some numbers, mates – spread ‘em far an’ wide, an’ don’t let ‘em be forgettin’!

http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/03-09-2009/0004985067&EDATE=
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YARR!

It falls into the “have you no shame” category. How Lindsey Graham and other GOPers can do nothing but obstruct and parrot GOP talking points about “bureaucrats standing between doctors and patients” is insulting and adolescent bullying. We already HAVE bureaucrats standing between doctors and patients – they’re the insurance companies!

Short version from th’ link above fer’ cuttin’, pastin’, an’ encouragin’ people t’ be rememberin:

“Senator Max Baucus (D-MT), chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, who has become the leading architect of health care reform in Congress, received more campaign contributions from the pharmaceutical and health insurance industries than any other current Democratic member of the House or Senate. Senator Baucus received $183,750 from health insurance companies and $229,020 from drug companies.”
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YARR!

[...] in Daily life, Government, Healthcare, Media at 9:10 am by LeisureGuy Karen Tumulty in TIME magazine: Paul Begala took note of our post the other day about some terribly tragic health insurance [...]

So I don’t be understandin’ why a simple inclusion in ‘is introduction anywhere, along th’ lines o’:

Senator Max Baucus (D-MT), who has eceived more campaign contributions from the pharmaceutical and health insurance industries than any other current Democratic member of the House or Senate, says…”
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Would tha’ be so hard t’ do, mates!
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YARR!

Single payer places have horror stories too. How do we expect to avoid those horror stories here in the US?

Sorry me hearties, in me fury I be fergettin’ me spacin an’ sloppily cuttin’ an’ pastin’.
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It be time fer me t’ be steppin back an tryin’ t’ regain a wee bit o’ composure, if tha’ be possible whilst endurin’ meself bein’ sold down th’ river by me elected representatives…carry on, crew!
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Arrgh!

Ahh…spongy an’ texty spoutin’ nearly th’ same word fer word…must be th’ latest scum bein’ sent down th’ line by th’ nutosphere fer mongerin’ more fear…ye can alw’ys tell from th’ wordin’ – they be capable o’ repeatin’ bu’ not o’ puttin’ it in their own words. Kind o’ like “DMV an’ USPS”. Tha’ were so last week an so debunked – now it be time t’ move on t’ another half-baked diversionary tactic.
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I be tryin’ t’ quit, mates, but texty an’ spongy won’ let me .
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Arrgh!

I am an immigrant from a country that has 3 times the population of US,per capita income is 20 times SMALLER than that of US. If such a country can provide semi-decent public health care free for it’s citizens, why in the world do some senators and republicans think it is not possible in this country. These folks should get out more and see how universal health care is provided in rest of the world.

So Pirate Wench, the US is somehow going to avoid the problems that arise in single-payer systems. OK, gotcha.
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And let me ask you this. Criminals. What if they don’t pay in? Should they get the same healthcare as my kids?

And I will ask again the question I posed on another thread. Michelle Obama’s hospital engaged in activities that were pretty close to illegal dumping. Michelle Obama pushed an “Urban Health Initiative” at the hospital, which helped it offload indigent patients. Anyone in here think that was ok?

Who’s to say your kids aren’t criminals?

Just to remind everyone, here’s how the “fascist” reported it:
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http://michellemalkin.com/2009/06/19/the-obamacare-horror-story-you-won%e2%80%99t-hear/
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Wonder if someone will ask Axelrod some hard questions.

PD, they aren’t now. 6, 4 and 1 month.

helped it offload indigent patients
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No it’s not OK.
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But with a proper plan in place, it would be a non-starter because everyone would be covered. No need to offload anyone.

And PD, my point was they’re lack of paying in. How much undeclared income does a drug dealer have (remember too, they don’t even get to deduct COGS).

PD, so are you saying that Michelle Obama is as evil as those infernal insurance cos.?

It’s morally wrong to leave million uninsured and 1 illness away from financial ruin. And it’s wrong to burden small business with the outrageous insurance costs also — found a cool site; Balkingpoints ; incredible satellite view of earth

6, 4 and 1 month.
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That doesn’t mean anything. I think they’re criminals. After all, I’m as good a judge as you are.

PD, you’re a POS. Go f yourself.

spob:
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We all know that nothing is never perfect. The difference between us and you is that we look at that fact and think:
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Which one is better?
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You look at that fact this way:
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How can I use it to my advantage to promote my point of view?

Michelle Obama is as evil
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She might be. But it’s entirely irrelevant to the discussion. I can’t think of any reason for you to mention except as a distraction.
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Dishonest to the core…..

“6, 4 and 1 month”
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Can they hold a gun or a knife?

“And PD, my point was they’re lack of paying in. How much undeclared income does a drug dealer have (remember too, they don’t even get to deduct COGS).”
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Drug dealers abuse the Free Market, too, and avoid taxes. Does this make them good Republicans?

Don’t make me stop this car. I will you know. I’ll turn it around and drive straight back home.

spob,

I realize there is no point in addressing you, because you’re really not interested in the topic, but only in scoring points. But I’ll write this once.

If we lose our health care insurance because we can’t pay for it any more, waiting times are the LEAST of our worries. My husband won’t be able to get the care he needs because we won’t be able to afford it.

Even with a public option, those who want to can keep their plans, and those who can afford to can buy whatever care they want (just as they do today), the difference is those of us who cannot get care will be covered. Horror story anecdotes about waiting times are just a red-herring, as are stories about criminals getting care. Throwing these out for discussion is your way of high-jacking the thread, and it’s too important a subject.

PD, you’re a POS. Go f yourself.
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Ah, the clinching argument. With Spooge it’s not a matter of “if” but “when.” Stay classy, tiger.

No 53_3, I fundamentally understand that power corrupts and government is inherently ineffecient. Upon those two rocks government healthcare will founder. And that’s not even getting into the politicization of care decisions. Think that won’t happen. How do we prioritize AIDS care and care for kids? Remember, resources are scarce, so there will be decisions made by government on how to allocate them.
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If Michelle Obama and David Axelrod helped a hospital dump patients, then that’s relevant, since (a) Axelrod is pushing Obamacare right now, and (b) Michelle Obama is the president’s wife, for Pete’s sake.

Of course spob’s obsession with the possibility of ‘undeserving’ people getting health care, doesn’t take into account the possibility that those ‘undeserving’ have a communicable disease.
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I’d really prefer that if a drug dealer or illigal immigrant gets Swine Flu that he’s able to go to the doctor anyway.
Call it enlightened self-interest.

Remember, resources are scarce
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Huh?

My point about drug dealers, of course, is that there will be people who hide income etc., and they will get a piece of a pie that would otherwise go to the law-abiding. That, 53_3, whether you like it or not, becomes a political problem in single-payer.

Perhaps, FT, you didn’t see what precipitated it, and if you don’t understand scarcity, well, I cannot really help you.
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With respect to the “undeserving”, the issue, of course, is that otherwise scarce resources will be diverted to such people. If you think the virtuous (for lack of a better word) won’t point that out when they are on the short end of the stick for some treatment, you’re not getting it. The issue is not my obsession, but how things work when health care gets politicized.

So, will Michelle Obama and Axelrod get the same vituperation in here as Michelle Malkin. You may not like her, but Malkin never had a hand in patient dumping.

And guys, how is the whole tort system gonna work? If costs are gonna be kept down, tort liability will have to be kept down too.

Federal employees are able to choose from a wide range of health plans with different options. Throw in the military, state and local employees and you are talking about millions of payers. Something that should be considered is barring for-profit health care providers from the list of providers if they drop people when they get ill even though they paid premiums when they were healthy. Every single provider in our system is not permitted to deny coverage because of any pre-existing condition. They can’t drop us if we get ill later either. It shouldn’t be any different for anyone else.

Stuart please let me know when it’s okay to consider spob, and his ilk certifiably crazy instead of considering them to have a conservative point of view.
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There is nothing about the GOP’s position on health care or for that matter a whole host of issues that is really conservative. They clearly have no understanding of history or what they are supposed to be conserving. At the very least if they were really conservative they would be promoting a system where everyone had a family doctor like they used to back in the day instead of the HMO’s we’ve been herded into so the insurance industry could become more profitable.

As for providing criminals healthcare, how is it that a repressive society like China with four times as many people has less than a fourth of the prison population that the US does? The US ranks 37th in terms of healthcare and we’re number 1 when it comes to how much we pay. We’re getting raped here. Let’s worry a little less about providing care for criminals when we are getting hammered by the real criminals that rob us under the guise of providing care.

What, Dee, I am “certifiably crazy” because I point out that the wife of the president and his advisor aren’t exactly squeaky clean?
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Am I “certifiably crazy” because I ask about the politicization of medical resource allocation (which will happen).
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Am I “certifiably crazy” because I wonder about how tort suits are going to be dealt with?

spob sadly missed my point earlier. I don’t literally beleive his kids are criminals, but he was going on a few days ago about what happens if a ‘gang-banger’ gets shot and why should he get medical attention. This of course misses the point that there’s no way to differentiate a ‘gang-banger’ from any other bystander except if he happens to be arrested and convicted of criminal activity.
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spob beleives that people who can’t afford insurance must deserve what they get and he throws around ‘gang-banger’ and ‘criminal’ to describe such people. But unless he’s a sitting judge he’s in no position to know who belongs on that list.
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Hence my suggestion that his own family may qualify. Turnabout is fair play.

sacredh, it’s not so simple–once everyone is shunted into a single-payer system (or practically everyone), then those issues will become unavoidable.

Spongy be nothin’ bu’ a crustacean-brained, worthless piece o’ rotted algae, so nothin’ ‘e be sayin be worth considerin’, ‘cept fer a laugh b’fore movin’ along t’ sane commenters.
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An b’fore ye be gettin’ on yer high horsie regardin’ insults, ye dolt, ye initiated th’ whole thing wi’ yer “f yerself” proferred earlier in th’ thread.
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YARR!

And by the way, dealing with tort reform would actually be helpful under the circumstances.
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More chaff being thrown out to derail the conversation.

Sen Cornyn, 10th top senate recipient o’ drug corp money (Cornyn, John (R-TX) $115,900) over th’ last two election cycles on MSNBC condemnin’ a public option fer health insurance unchallenged an’ blood money unmentioned!
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YARR!

No PD, I didn’t miss your point. You simply don’t insult people’s children that way.
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As for you PW, perhaps you didn’t see what precipitated the comment. But if I were you, I wouldn’t be tossing around the “dolt” comments. You’re certainly nowhere close to the sharpest tool in the drawer.
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And PD, while the emergency room crowd may not know, the point is a moral one more than anything. I cannot imagine for a second that the healthcare of many people in this country is going to be worse than it otherwise would be as a result of Obamacare. When that happens, those people have a right to wonder out loud about the healthcare provided to criminals etc., especially to criminals who don’t pay into the system. To take a silly example, there’s currently litigation in Massachusetts over whether some convicted murderer gets to have sex reassignment surgery on the taxpayer’s nickel (of course, people can probably guess my view of that), and the prisoner has won the right to certain treatment on the taxpayr’s nickel. Now, of course, prisoner care is apples/oranges to a certain extent but the larger point is that those resources are resources not expended to help kids etc. Government run healthcare will involve a lot of choices like that.

Not everyone will be shunted into a single payer system. Every version I’ve seen so far allows people who are satisfied with their current healthcare to keep their plan. Single payer will force for-profit outfits to become more competitive. They will still make money, just not as much as they do now. I have horror stories of my own with the healthcare system and I’ve got a great plan. No plan is perfect and never will be.
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Tort reform is on the table. There should be limits. Allowing the healthcare industry to set the limits isn’t a realistic option. It will have to be negotiated. My guess is that proposals on tort reform will just be another bargaining chip like a host of other issues. Everybody is going to have to give up something. This can happen now or later, but it will happen.

PW, ever consider that drug companies, which, by the way, produce things that create a lot of good in the world, not to mention good old fashioned American jobs, feel that they need to pay protection money to government officials?

Hmmm.
Criminals are judged to be criminals when they are convicetd of crimes.
People who pay into the system are duly recorded and presented receipts.
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If you want to exclude criminals or people who don’t pay, it’s a rather elementary process.
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So what’s the problem again?

“Not everyone will be shunted into a single payer system. Every version I’ve seen so far allows people who are satisfied with their current healthcare to keep their plan. Single payer will force for-profit outfits to become more competitive. They will still make money, just not as much as they do now. I have horror stories of my own with the healthcare system and I’ve got a great plan. No plan is perfect and never will be.”
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Maybe true–if the government plan really sucks, and even then? But if the government plan is tolerably ok, you will see a gradual diminution in covered people.
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What about direct government subsidies of workers’ insurance premiums? Would that solve a lot of the problem?

PD, they won’t exclude people who don’t pay or criminals. And then you have the resource allocation fight.

“No 53_3, I fundamentally understand that power corrupts and government is inherently ineffecient.”
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Government is inherently inefficient? Can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that indeed it is inherently inefficient? You’ve journeyed into the area of theory, not rhetoric, spob. Show your hand. Keep in mind that Individual instances are not enough to prove this.
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Also, can you do the same to prove that the Free Market is less efficient? Again, theory, spob. See above.
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Upon those two rocks government healthcare will founder.
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Will they, spob? The rest of the planet defies your “reality”.
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“And that’s not even getting into the politicization of care decisions. Think that won’t happen. How do we prioritize AIDS care and care for kids? Remember, resources are scarce, so there will be decisions made by government on how to allocate them.”
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Having the government raise revenues by taxation in order to accomplish it is a good idea, in my opinion. FDR is an excellent working template on how to deal with periods of time when resources are scarce.
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Peeling all your poisonous rhetoric aside it basically is this:
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I believe that the people who posses the resources must pull their weight in hard times and be willing to give up some of what they have in order to help those who don’t.
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On the other hand, you believe the contrary, to the point where the death of those who don’t have don’t matter as long as they don’t take what’s yours.
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“If Michelle Obama and David Axelrod helped a hospital dump patients, then that’s relevant, since (a) Axelrod is pushing Obamacare right now, and (b) Michelle Obama is the president’s wife, for Pete’s sake.”
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I refer to others about your diversionary tactics. What does this have to do with the price of tea in the Republic of China?

Government is inherently inefficient?
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Of course that’s the whole point. ‘Efficient’ in this context is to collect tens of thousands of dollars from each individual across his/her lifetime and to provide absolutely nothing in return.
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The role of government is specifically to step in to precisely those places where a genuine public need can not be provided on a pay-as-you-go basis. Fire-Police-Army-Health Care.
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It follows naturally…

If the government plan is tolerably OK you will see the for-profit outfits suddenly find a way to present tolerably OK benefits at reduced cost and still make a profit. They do what they want to now because they know they’re the only game in town for a great many people who are at their mercy (very stingy with the mercy, I might add). I see a great deal of consternation about socialized medicine and yet the people under that system seem more satisfied with their system than we are with ours.
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THAT is the great worry for the for-profit groups. If the single payer system works out better, the jig is up with their crying wolf. They don’t want any competition. We rank 37th in the world in terms of getting good care. For paying out more than anyone else, shouldn’t we rank #1 in healthcare provided? The only conclusion I can reach is that our system is broken and being kept broken by the very industry that is charged with providing us with care. They should have considered that before they f@#ked us over. I have no problem doing to them what they are doing to us.

yep, 53_3, a Depression that lasted over a decade, that was a great formula . . . .

“On the other hand, you believe the contrary, to the point where the death of those who don’t have don’t matter as long as they don’t take what’s yours.”
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Given that I have probably consumed about $10K in healthcare expenses in well over a decade, I hardly think I am the problem.
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But getting to your point, the issue of resource allocation is inherent in your argument. Well, when medical resources are shifted from some people to others, the people from whom those resources are shifted are going to suffer. You simply expect them to take it. Fine, but understand that’s power, not morality.

“If Michelle Obama and David Axelrod helped a hospital dump patients, then that’s relevant, since (a) Axelrod is pushing Obamacare right now, and (b) Michelle Obama is the president’s wife, for Pete’s sake.”
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I refer to others about your diversionary tactics. What does this have to do with the price of tea in the Republic of China?
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The president is pushing health care reform, and his wife and one of his biggest advisers were involved in patient dumping . . . .
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And that’s not relevant–whatever, moron.

while this video is powerful, its not really germaine to the discussion — everyone agrees that the exclusion of pre-existing conditions has to be eliminated as part of any reform package.
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But while not germaine, it is important insofar as it demonstrates how the private insurance industry operates, and can be expected to operate under any “reform” proposal — at least for as long as there is no single payer system, or at least ‘public option’ available that is focussed on providing health care services, and not profits.

The president is pushing health care reform, and his wife and one of his biggest advisers were involved in patient dumping
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Which suggests that reform is even MORE important, not less. That’s why you don’t intend it as anything but a distraction. It’s an argument AGAINST your position.

“There is nothing about the GOP’s position on health care or for that matter a whole host of issues that is really conservative.”
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It really can’t be pointed out enough – and it almost never is – that when these morons trot out their “free-market” dogma they are protecting the insurance industry, not the health care industry. It’s important because it shows that “conservatives” don’t even understand their own market dogma and that, in the end, they always represent the moneyed interests, regardless of who they are or what they do.

‘My point about drug dealers, of course, is that there will be people who hide income etc., and they will get a piece of a pie that would otherwise go to the law-abiding.’
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Based on this brilliant analysis we’d better stop building and fixing roads. After all, we don’t want criminals to get a ‘piece of the pie’ by driving on them.
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Why is it that with gopers it always has to be a race to the bottom? We can’t do something that’s good for all of us because someone they don’t like might also benefit from it. And they now point out that the resources are too limited — unless, of course, we’re talking about building more F22 fighters that we don’t need, or tax cuts for the wealthy, or promoting unnecessary invasions. Then we don’t hear a peep from them (other than the usual insults — which they confuse with arguments).

Karen,

Thank you for your work on this. I’m increasingly skeptical (and I really didn’t think that was possible) that “reform” will turn out to be anything but another corporate giveaway that more-or-less screws the average citizen but, as Begala points out, you are doing the rare job of practicing actual journalism on this vital issue and that, in and of itself, is important. At least, if and when “our representatives” in the Senate capitulate to Our Owners in the insurance industry, people will have a clearer picture of what really happened.

Dee:
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Stuart please let me know when it’s okay to consider spob, and his ilk certifiably crazy instead of considering them to have a conservative point of view.
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LOL.
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Of course I think that it’s perfectly okay to consider spob completely insane, if his arguments strike you as exhibitions of various pathologies.
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spob is not a troll, however.
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I will say that his “BUT MICHELLE IS TEH SUXXOR” non sequitur borders on the edges of trollery in this thread, but still don’t render all his arguments in all threads subject to perma-ignore.
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Knowing the difference between trollery and insanity is really, really important, if we’re to encourage an open forum in which a diversity of perspectives are represented as they exist in the real world.

“Knowing the difference between trollery and insanity is really, really important”
On behalf of the insane and semi-insane in Swampland, I thank you SZ.
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You almost made me cry. What a guy.

Which suggests that reform is even MORE important, not less. That’s why you don’t intend it as anything but a distraction. It’s an argument AGAINST your position.
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Uh, no. Just shows that the people in charge are problematic, and we’re gonna hand over billions in revenues and control over the healthcare system to them? OK, gotcha.
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But isn’t it amazing, you cannot bring yourself to criticize Saint Michelle and Apostle David . . . . ha ha ha ha.
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“Why is it that with gopers it always has to be a race to the bottom? We can’t do something that’s good for all of us because someone they don’t like might also benefit from it.”
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This comment is on the intellectual level of “mean people suck”. First of all, this won’t be good for all of us–with massive government intervention, there are always winners and losers, and it won’t just be insurance cos. Second of all, medical resources are finite. And when government gets involved in allocating them, there are political issues that come up–one of which will be the “deserving” vs. the “undeserving”. As for Michelle and David, well, they’ll always get theirs, even though they’ve dumped. Now please explain why I should have to sacrifice, when they obviously won’t.

“My point about drug dealers, of course, is that there will be people who hide income etc., and they will get a piece of a pie that would otherwise go to the law-abiding. That, 53_3, whether you like it or not, becomes a political problem in single-payer.”
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I bolded this comment because you are making the admission that you consider it ok to use the tactics you do to ensure that it remains a political problem and not a real one!

Interesting definition of relevance–David Axelrod is pushing healthcare reform–he’s also pushed a practice close to patient dumping. Hmmmmm. No skepticism there? As for Michelle, she’s the First Lady, for Pete’s sake. That’s not relevant? Come on guys.

Oh, and spob, history, and widespread inormation has already made it clear that FDR’s actions led to a drop in unemployment from the high 20% to approximately 12% by 1934.
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So I assume, like your comment about drug dealers, you are only interested in maintaining a political problem and not a real problem.

I put to you, spob, by your own admission, that in addition, your comments on Michelle, who is by no means as evil as you paint her, is yet another example of your penchant for maintaining a political problem instead of a real one.

we’re gonna hand over billions in revenues and control over the healthcare system to them?
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I wasn’t aware that Michelle Obama was running for Health czar. What? She’s not! She’s not even a government official! You mean spob’s throwing her name up as a distraction?
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Imagine my shock.
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Again the real debate we should be having is over whether and how for-profit entities can be coaxed into refraining from ripping people off. The fact that the U of C hospital might have turned indigent people away suggests that we have a serious problem on our hands. Spob simultaneously argues that we don’t have a serious problem on our hands, that indigent patients should be turned away and that it’s all Michelle Obama’s fault.
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Classic poo flinging in the hopes that something sticks.

53_3, you really are a piece of work (I am beginning to think that your erudition with respect to the natural history of the Earth is the product of savantism).
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The issue is not my tactics (I hardly think that posting on a blog is worthy of being called a “tactic”), but rather the inevitable consequences of single-payer. When the government allocates medical resources, it will make choices, and those choices will reflect politics. Maybe that’s ok with you (but understand that it’s power, not morality). But there are huge problems with it. Let’s take a micro-example–politician exercises political pull to get a crony some treatment. Once that happens, everyone, and I mean everyone, paying into this system HAS AN ABSOLUTE MORAL RIGHT TO THE SAME LEVEL OF CARE. (Do you dispute that?) Now of course, that won’t happen. Or what about the allocation of medical resources to a drunk driver who wraps his car around a tree. In a single-payer system, the provision of resources to him is necessarily the denial of resources to others. People are going to complain about that. And what about people whose care will go down? Is it fair to affirmatively harm them, when all they are doing is going to work every day and TCB?

“…we’re gonna hand over billions in revenues and control over the healthcare system to them?”
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Well, spob, you’re one to complain! I don’t hear you complain when Bernanke, under Bush and the GOP, the Treasury flung open it’s doors to hand out a minimum of 7,400,000,000,000 dollars, approximately three times the current admisistrations total outlay.
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Oh, I get it, whether I like it or not, spob, it’s a political problem!
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How could I not have seen that!

If medical resources are indeed finite, we really need to institue population control NOW. Why should I (who had no children of my own) have to risk a shortage of medical resources just so those who want to have several children that can eat up resources can exercise what they believe to be religious or moral rights? Maybe no healthcare for any child after #2.

Stuart –
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I be heartily disagreein’ wi’ ye regardin’ spongy’s trollishness – he only be employin’ wha’ seem t’ be rational thought once in a blue moon in order t’ trick people into readin’ on, only t’ be slapped wi’ ‘is usual message o’ lies an’ derailin’ misdirection.
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T’ try t’ engage ‘im be a lost cause, b’cause ‘e only uses responses t’ further spread ‘is scum.
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Dee – so far as I be concerned, ‘e already IS certified insane…in a cunnin’ diabolical sort o’ way…
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Arrgh!

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And that’s not relevant–whatever, moron.
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Hey, spob! It is relevant, just not the way you think it is…apparently,
sending a patient with the common cold to a clinic instead of allocating medical resources to more severe cases may actually not be a bad thing, spob, no matter what Malkin wants you to believe.

“In the past, we opened our doors and saw whoever came,” Whitaker said Friday. “We would see a patient who had general pneumonia, and if we needed to see a patient who needed a liver transplant, that liver transplant patient couldn’t get in the door.”
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And rather than dump patients on other health care facilities, Whitaker said the initiative actually is improving their bottom lines.
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“We were taking general patients away from Mercy Hospital, Michael Reese, and they were financially at risk,” Whitaker said. “We harmed other hospitals without knowing we harmed other hospitals.”
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At the same time, the Urban Health Initiative is improving the university’s finances. Fewer poor patients are showing up at the U. of C. emergency room for basic medical treatment and are no longer admitted to the hospital. That frees beds for transplants, cancer care and other more-profitable medical procedures that the university prides itself on.
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“The collapse of the health care system was driving more and more people to the emergency room,” Axelrod said. “The trend line was and is a disastrous one from the standpoint of maintaining the hospital. Their goal was to find an answer.”

Not only is this a distraction, spob, your/Malkin’s take on this reeks of right-whinge partisanship. You can’t be taken seriously.

spob:
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I fundamentally understand that power corrupts and government is inherently ineffecient.
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Given your formulation that “power corrupts”, would you please explain the difference in your mind between how the power of enormous corporations corrupts, yet remains “inherently efficient” (as I understand your thinking), whilst “power corrupts” government into inherent, inescapable, inevitable inefficiency?
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How does that work, exactly?
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How are extraordinary powerful corporations run by a tiny few self-interested decision-makers (and in many cases their families) immune from such “inherent inefficiency”?
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Or are you arguing that organizations like Sony or Citigroup or General Electric or Nestle aren’t “powerful”?

“Spob simultaneously argues that we don’t have a serious problem on our hands, that indigent patients should be turned away and that it’s all Michelle Obama’s fault.”
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Please explain, PD, where I have said that we don’t have issues with healthcare? (By the way, didn’t Saint Barack, at some point, say that most Americans are satisfied with their healthcare?)
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Please also explain where I said it was all Michelle’s fault? But if she and David Axelrod was complicit in a scheme to push away the urban poor, what does that say about the bona fides of Obama’s plan? I mean, isn’t this how you guys roll? Nothing Rummy did was ok.

the allocation of medical resources to a drunk driver who wraps his car around a tree
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So the correct response to someone who wraps his car around a tree is to check his BAC and let him bleed out on the side of the road if it’s too high? On what basis do propose enabling that sort of judgment?
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I won’t even begin to ask how you’d feel about paying for a substance-abuse intervention program before he wrapped up his car.
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sacred –
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d*mn ye! Be ye TRYIN’ t’ lure neorationalizationist into th’ fray wi yer talk o’ infanticide-inducin’ government-forced population control???
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tho’ spongy should be likin’ th’ angle tha’ it might be effective in lessenin’ th’ criminal population he be so obsessed about…
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Shame on ye !
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Arrgh!

“Let’s take a micro-example–politician exercises political pull to get a crony some treatment.”
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And of course, corruption and cronyism doesn’t occur in the free market?
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I see your major qualifier, which has drawn a line between Americans who can pay for it and those who can’t.
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Also, note this:
“Is it fair to affirmatively harm them, when all they are doing is going to work every day and TCB?”
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So you’re saying that Rush Limbaugh, with his millions, is going to be harmed in some way by paying more taxes and alleviating the issue I point to immediately above?
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Surely you jest!
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Of course, I work every day and “TCB”, too, but even though I make far, far less, you will not hear me complain about my taxes going up too!
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Basically, what you’ve just said is:
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What’s mine is mine and fock the rest of America.

what does that say about the bona fides of Obama’s plan?
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Absolutely nothing. In case you’re too stupid to notice Obama’s plan consists of providing broad guidlines to Congress and letting them write the plan. Axelrod and Michalle are red herrings, sure evidence of your basic dishonesty.

pirate wench:
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Be careful!
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sacredh is driving!

53 –
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Ah – As long as ‘e can be payin’ ‘is own way, like spongy, ‘e’ll be just fine after he be unwrapped fr’m th’ tree an’ pr’vided th’ 29th best health care money can be buyin…
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Actual, wha’ I be most concerned about be th’ supply o’ th’ sacred rum tha’ he be supposedly savin fer me rescue, in th’ event it should become necessary, fr’m th’ Vatican secret rehab facility! A’ this rate, thar be nothin’ left fer me!
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Arrgh!

I’ll be bein’ forced t’ resort t’ whatever it were Amy were doin’ t’ procure her own escape!

PW:
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Arrgh!
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LOL

Oh, spob, you backed up neither assertion that you alluded to earlier.
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I asked for proof, otherwise, your assertions about government and free enterprise represent only your opinion and not, as you asserted, an actual fact!

spob can put up his Mission Accomplished sign. He’s driven this discussion all day. I even responded once.

It’s just stupid how easy it is to misdirect. Atrios talks about Lucy/Charlie Brown and the football. The Dems in Congress fall for it and so do we all.

It’s sh*t. This is so important. Karen posted on a topic that should be dealt with honestly and a stupid troll completely redirects the conversation. He has zero interest in really coming up with a solution but he gets 90% of the comments.

“I’ll be bein’ forced t’ resort t’ whatever it were Amy were doin’ t’ procure her own escape!”
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As long as you remember that she didn’t chaw her own leg off and crawl away on the bloody stump!
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Or did she?
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Oh, sh!t…

53-3 and pirate wench: Not only am I driving, but I have to go in tomorrow for treatment on a pulled muscle in my back….AND I have to get a prostate exam too. I had to report off from work today because of my back and I’m facing having a man I’m not in love with stick a finger up my ass. I don’t care what my wife says about him being a doctor and him doing it all the time…I am NOT a happy camper today. I’m going in there drunk tomorrow. I don’t give a f@#k what she says. If I’m not trashed, he’s not playing Dora the Explorer. Please, no jokes about class rings, wrist watches or lost flashlights.

joyousmn:
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You have a point, but it is helpful to cover these bases. Invalidating his attempts to divert are equally useful.
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Of course, he’s scored more than a few “own goals” in his defeat here…

none whatsoever sacredh.
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Have another Oxycontin…

She may be crawlin’ on a bloody stump, bu’ I do be assumin’ she kept ‘er maidenly honor…tha’ be th’ important thing – an’ since I’ve long-since admitted I lost me own long ago, who knows wha’ I mi’ be driven’ t’ be tryin’? So, sacred’d best be savin’ me tha’ rum he were promisin’ – thar’s no tellin, when, where, why, or how I mi’ be needin’ it!
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Or, I mi’ be needin’ t’ be offerin sacred ‘imself as a trade – ‘e’d most likely be infinite-more attractive to ‘em.
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Arrgh!

funny ye should be mentionin’ fingers an’ asses, me hearty !

sacredh, your way of thinking presupposes, of course, government control over how resources are allocated, and in such cases, you’re right, me having more than 2 kids is harming you–but since I would generally like to see less government rather than more, you cannot complain to me. I am not the problem.
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Big corporations have a lot of power–they also have the discipline of the market. Very very smart people spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to give people what they want.
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Grape-crush, are you really justifying the Urban Health Initiative? I know sycophancy goes a long way, but come on.
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But back to Saint Michelle and Apostle David–Americans are supposed to trust Obamacare when his own wife and major policy pusher were involved in what KT has called a “scandal”? And i am called insane for mentioning this . . . .

“Or, I mi’ be needin’ t’ be offerin sacred ‘imself as a trade – ‘e’d most likely be infinite-more attractive to ‘em.”
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I just don’t think you’re gonna even get one piece o’ eight out of that deal, piratewench.
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Remember his condition…

excellent dodge spob. Truly excellent!
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53_3 23, spob 0.

Per’aps we all just need t’ be tellin’ spongy t’ f ‘imself now an’ be movin’ on?
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I’ll be beginnin:
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Spongy –
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Go f yerself!
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Arrgh!

“the allocation of medical resources to a drunk driver who wraps his car around a tree
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So the correct response to someone who wraps his car around a tree is to check his BAC and let him bleed out on the side of the road if it’s too high? On what basis do propose enabling that sort of judgment?”
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First of all, did I say that? Second of all, I was thinking more of long-term care. And substance abuse programs will be an issue–they are expensive.
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And 53_3, you miss my point about cronyism–there is a difference between putting a gun to my head, extracting payments from me, and then using some of said payment for corrupt purposes and the general cronyism that goes on in private America.
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And as for harming, the issue is not Rush Limbaugh–he’ll be fine, but rather the millions of people who work hard, TCB and have good health insurance now.

53_3:Invalidating his attempts to divert are equally useful.

I’m not sure that’s true. Anyone driven here by the links has to wade through spob comments and us responding to him and the content of those comments has nothing to do with the actual topic. Also, it’s obvious from reading spob over many months that this really is his point. Stuart, I know you said earlier that he does sometimes contribute something useful, but it surely wasn’t apparent on this thread.

It’s just so disheartening to see the same dynamic that plays out on TV, play out here: Republican says something crazy so the other members of the panel feel compelled to refute it. Discussion goes around and around about Repubs talking point, till time is over. Repeat.

ah, PW descends. Problem is, PW, we’ve seen all this before. What did the “War on Poverty” do?

From C-SPAN. This guy is not in office any more but I hope you don’t think this kinda of attitude is unique to him.
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well, joyousmn, how can i be so wrong? I mean, I’m just following the lead of Saint Michelle and the Apostle Dave–screw the poor (and by the way, that is not remotely my position). If I am so bad, and I am just commenting on a blog, shouldn’t they be boiled (rhetorically) in oil–after all, I never ever ever dumped a patient, and I have made charitable contributions to hospitals.

they also have the discipline of the market. Very very smart people spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to give people what they want.
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Again, here’s where the mythology of the Church of Reagan comes to the fore. Insurance companies spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to get what they want and give people as little as possible in return. Since most insurance is purchased by third parties (employers) the actual market forces at work team the direct customer and the insurance provider in an alliance against the ultimate consumer. The market itself directly drives consumers into a bad situation.
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The model that Conservatives have built to represent their Nirvana is in direct odds with reality in predictable ways. The discipline of the market can and often is bypassed.

PD, look at all the cool stuff we have in America–most of it was brought to you by private enterprise. Now I am not a free market absolutist by any stretch of the imagination, and I fervently believe in the maxim, pactum sunt servanda, but the idea that government is going to administer a massive massive healthcare system well is stunning to me.
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You squeeze doctors, you’ll have fewer good doctors; you squeeze drug cos., you’ll have less innovation; you squeeze private insurance cos., you;ll have less privately-insured people (and more for the government to deal with). I don’t see how this isn’t obvious to any casual observer.

I’m not following the “criminal” argument here but in my state at least, inmates of state prisons get manadated care better than anyone on Medicaid or Medicare so I’m not sure what ones criminal status has to do with getting universal healthcare.

messenia, the issue is criminals on the streets, i.e., people who have created their own indigency–the other issue are criminals who have a lot of undeclared income (i.e., who don’t pay in).
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As for criminals inside, their healthcare (rightfully so) aint the greatest.

If I lose my job, then my only option at this time is Cobra. That cost us $800 per month in 2004, more likely it’s $1200 per month now since that’s what I pay today. Since we already burned through our 401k to pay medical expenses not covered by insurance from 2004 to today, then that option (Cobra) is a magic pony as far as we are concerned.

So then what? We can qualify for MinnesotaCare if we don’t make any more than $15,000 per year. If Pawlenty’s cuts haven’t completely gutted it. So if we are completely destitute we can get coverage.

While I job hunt, (my husband is not able to get a job due to his medical condition–he works freelance when he can get it) I have to worry about what to put down on the insurance forms if I get hired. When you know you will increase your employers premiums just by signing on it’s a REAL dilemma. You can’t lie. But then when you tell the truth, the job disappears. Do you think that doesn’t happen? It did already to me at one place. They hired me and when I inquired about benefits suddenly the job offer was rescinded.

So then I do get hired. I already told you that 22% of my gross salary at my current job goes to pay for health insurance.

Yeah, this is the best system in the world…no doubt

joyous –
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Ye do be havin’ a point, bu’ on t’ other hand, I think most o’ us are beginnin’ t’ believe tha’ th’ reform we been promised already be bought an’ paid fer by th’ usual suspects.
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We can be havin’ all th’ discussion we be wantin’, bu’ wha’ will be th’ effect?
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Naught, I be fearin’.
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So, guilty tho’ I be o’ entertainin’ meself toyin’ wi spongy an’ ‘is blanched, diseased coral-polyp-brained ilk…I do it ’cause I don’t be thinkin’ anythin’ we be sayin’ ‘ere really matter. It be not covered in th’ blackhearted, also bought an’ paid-fer MSM. KT an’ a few others aside – ye don’t see any o’ this bein’ brought up on network ‘r cable “news” shows – ‘cept t’ be allowed t’ be shot down by bought an’ paid-fer pundits an’ politicians – they all be too beholdin’ t’ do otherwise.
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Let us fiddle on th’ deck an’ enjoy th’ music as th’ ship be sinkin, matey – it don’t be doin’ no good t’ do anythin’ else.
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YARR!

spob: “You squeeze doctors, you’ll have fewer good doctors; you squeeze drug cos., you’ll have less innovation; you squeeze private insurance cos., you;ll have less privately-insured people (and more for the government to deal with). I don’t see how this isn’t obvious to any casual observer.”
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Is there any evidence that the German or French model has squeezed out good doctors? Is there any evidence that the single-payer systems of Germany, France, or Switzerland (which after all are homes to the pharmacy giants of the world) have resulted in less innovation?
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OTOH, there is quite a bit of evidence that the US patchwork of for-profit, employer-paid model here has bankrupted individuals, companies, and soon the nation (with or without the introduction of the bogus “public option”.
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I keep hearing how people want to keep their current plans but those folks seem oblivious to the fact that their employers are actively cutting back on both coverage and funding. If we keep down our current path, the only fully covered employees will be government workers.
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I don’t see how this isn’t obvious to any casual observer.

that government is going to administer…
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They’ve got that Army, Navy and Air Force thing down pretty good.
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I’ve pointed out elsewhere, that the myth that government is inefficient and business efficient has nothing to do with their roles as government vs capital and everything to do with how accountability plays out. Conservatives like to point to DMV’s as examples of bad government but the problem there is simply that you have low pay employees with faux authority.
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When you have a Government entity with real responsibilities and real consequenses for failure it does just fine. Likewise, a privately held complany that because of a monopoly or a symbiotic relationship to the government or (as in the case of insurance companies) a market that is distorted due to the inability of customers to forgo purchases is just as capable of being bureaucratic and unresponsive as a government agency.
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The probelm with Reaganism is that it’s just about half right.

An, spongy –
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Go f yerself!
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Arrgh!

Pirate wench, I understand that, but it’s too personal for me to feel that way about it. I appreciate your link to the numbers you posted earlier and you are probably right about Congress, but my options are to keep dialing them and try to shame them into doing the right thing. My point is that there’s enough dirt in the way without feeding into ridiculous trolls.

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I know sycophancy goes a long way…
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Why, yes, you would, wouldn’t you?
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Big corporations have a lot of power–they also have the discipline of the market.
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Bullsh!t, in so many different ways.
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Very very smart people spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to give people what they want.
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Wrong (again). Very smart people working for corporations spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to maximize profitability.
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The issue is that we’re treating healthcare as something that one buys or sells instead of something – like clean water or air – that we need to survive…Which, quite literally we do. Four futures:
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1) Continue as we have been and watch most people get poorer and sicker as insurers elect to overcharge non-physically defective affluent, putting doctors and hospitals out of business.
2) Single-payer, with a higher tier of service for those that want to pay for insurance (see Australia)
3) Treatment of the healthcare industry like a utility, with the same cost controls and heavy regulation.
4) The Rube Goldberg abominationthat Congress and lobbyists of various stripes are constructing. When that fails, universal health care will be pronounced a ‘failure’…at which point, see item #1.

joyousmn, what is the answer? Places where single-payer abounds may have basically said tough to your husband. There are long waiting lists in England, Canada etc.
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On one of these threads, I once asked if we simply needed to target working people who were to expensive to insure. Now I have zero idea how to implement something like that–is the answer to subsidize healthcare insurance premiums through employers so as to make the decision to employ people in your situation easier? I guess you’d have to figure out what the threshhold is for an expensive worker, but that should be doable, right?
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In any event, the posts on these threads take on a nasty tone. You sound like a good person–your husband is lucky to have someone in his life like you. I hope never to have to find out, but I hope that if I am faced with your circumstances that I would be as good a spouse as you. (And I hope I raise my children to be that way as well.)

PD, I was in the Navy–efficiency ain’t the military way.

Another question–what about assets? How are income poor/asset rich people supposed to be treated under new system?

If 62% of bankruptcy claimants in 2007 listed medical bills as a top cause of their failure and 75% of those folks had insurance, how does anything that is “on the table” among legislators help them?
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If the problem is “just” those who are uninsured (whatever the number), why do 40% of households report postponing needed care due to cost?
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If the only result of universal private insurance coverage (aka the Massachusetts program) is rising premiums and copays so that doctors and hospitals get paid, why would anyone talk about extending that model?
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If “competitive”, market driven health coverage is so good, why is that, in the 60 years we have been tied to it, has the industry not been able to get us even close to the cost/coverage ratios enjoyed by every other industrialized country?

joyous –
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It be ri’ personal t’ me too, I just don’t be goin’ into it ‘ere much. I’ve got me own stories, b’lieve me!
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I do be active outside o’ this thread callin’ writin, emailin’ tryin’ t’ get friends an’ family involved – even tho’ I be pret’ sure I be wastin’ me time. A’ least I’ll be able t’ be sayin’ I were givin’ it me best shot!
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I still be waitin’ fer KT f’ find me th’ numbers fer Sen. Sanders petition – I’ve looked all over an’ ‘ave yet t’ find ‘ow many ‘ave signed so far. I’m sure she be doin’ ‘er best…
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Regardin’ th’ dirt – tha’ be why I were suggestin’ a short, easy, stock response:
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Spongy, go f yerself!
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Arrgh!

efficiency ain’t the military way…
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And how many ‘private’ companies directly benefit from that largesse?
The Navy has a mission to accomplish and failure is not an option. Follow the motivation. What activities get people in trouble? What can be shrugged off as ‘someone else’s problem’ Now apply the same exercise to Insurance Companies.
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The Navy is motivated to spend whatever it takes regardless of cost and Insurance companies are motivated to keep every penny they can regardless of the hardship it may cause. Have you ever tried to read a health insurance policy? Every phrase is carefully designed to give them maximum leverage and the customer minimum recourse.

The answer is to pool everyone. You can’t cull out health care “abusers” the way you can refuse to insure, or raise the rates on bad drivers, because health issues (much of the time, though certainly not all the time) aren’t a result of bad choices. My husband got cancer. He didn’t DO anything that caused it, it just happened.

When you have health care predicated on PROFIT then they will maximize their profits by refusing to insure or raising the rates, or rescinding (which was KT point, back a million posts ago) people’s policies.

Capitalism works well in many cases. Contrary to Fox News, Obama and the rest of us left-wing nuts aren’t all socialists. It’s just that the profit motive won’t work for health care. If you have a public plan that only enroll’s the people that NEED it, it will fail. So you have to cover everyone. Why is this so bleeping hard to understand?

You lecture on waiting periods, when many people CAN’T GO AT ALL because they can’t afford it. When I can see, and have seen, NO coverage, waiting periods just aren’t that scary.

And so we’re back to a public option. Actually we’re at single-payer, but as pirate wench has pointed out, the powers that be are f*cking this up left and right so single-payer was NEVER even an option. But my family needs to know that there is a place we can go to get health care.

PD, please provide a quote wherein I am defending insurance companies or saying that they don’t need regulation. My posts about the free market have NOTHING TO DO WITH INSURANCE COMPANIES, but rather are general observations to rebut the “private enterprise is evil” nonsense being spouted here. The idea that insurance companies will look to unjustly cut people is, surprise surprise, not shocking to me at all. I have not defended it in the slightest, and I won’t.
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That said, the issue to me is what the replacement is. Seems to me that the issue is the hard core uninsurable or costly to insure. Why can’t we take little bites and target solutions.

‘joyousmn, what is the answer? Places where single-payer abounds may have basically said tough to your husband. There are long waiting lists in England, Canada etc.
‘
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That’s bull! You’re just making that up because you have no response to joyousmn’s situation, and what you are advocating will never offer one.
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‘I hope never to have to find out, but I hope that if I am faced with your circumstances that I would be as good a spouse as you.’
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There it is in a nutshell. The wingnut solution is to be in a circumstance that will protect you. If you’re not you’re screwed.
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Although I agree that we spend too much time feeding the trolls here, I do think that there’s something to be learned from the exchange. The lefties here (and moderates — a public option is the desire of a large majority of Americans) are trying to expand health care availability. The gopers have nothing to offer towards that end and aren’t really interested in trying. They’re more interested in coming up with ways to withhold health care from those they don’t like.

Some perspective from the just awake:
~
Of the 143 comments thus far, 39 were made by Spob-a-lot
~
Further, he’s been referenced (in a variety of ways) 29 times
~
Whether you call him a troll or plain batsh!t crazy, a full 1/2 of the thread concerns him. Call me dumb but that can’t be particularly productive or mentally healthy. Nor, mind you, is counting his appearances…

Pirate Wench — Bernie Sanders petition

really bobcn? There are no waiting lists in England or Canada? Why do many Canadians come here for healthcare? And why is medical tourism so popular in England?
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As for your “withhold” accusation, you really are a piece of work. Perhaps it’s because you are unaccustomed to reasoning beyond that of my soon to be seven year old. Guess what genius, covering every medical ailment that afflicts every American is a tall order. So guess what happens–scarce resources have to be allocated. So what do we prioritize–elder care? AIDS care? Substance abuse care? Emergency care? You cannot prioritize everything, and that means, moron, that hard decisions have to be made.
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And that’s not to even discuss the issues involved with squeezing doctors etc. Squeeze docs, and less really bright people will become docs. Etc.
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And you yap about the “wingnut” solution–I prefer to call it the “Saint Michelle” solution. After all, I didn’t put lipstick on a pig policy of pushing the poor out the door.

Big corporations have a lot of power–they also have the discipline of the market.
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Really? He wrote that? After the sh*t storm last fall?
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We’ve had nine months of uninterrupted stories about corporate lack of discipline, and spob wants us to believe market discipline will save healthcare?

to rebut the “private enterprise is evil…
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provide a quote wherein….
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The topic under discussion is insurance companies. No one has suggested that private enterprise is evil. I won’t even guess where those ‘voices’ may be coming from. The point I’ve seen made many times (it’s almost a slogan of mine) is there are many things free markets are good at and other things at which they suck. The belief that private enterprise is inherently better than government has been recently proven to be false. That’s how we ended up with a Dem controlled Congress and White House.
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‘Places where single-payer abounds may have basically said tough to your husband.’
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Really?? That’s B.S. In any single-payer country (including the ones you cite) medical care would be provided — and it wouldn’t require job changes or bankruptcy to qualify for it. It’s the U.S. system that’s saying ‘tough’.
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‘So guess what happens–scarce resources have to be allocated. ‘
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The two countries you cite pay substantally less than Americans do. No where do people pay as much for health care and get so little. So if you’re really concerned about resources then the solution is obvious — single payer!

Given the consequences for taxpayers of AIG’s last decade of profligacy, it’s pretty incredible that anybody would use the phrase “discipline of the market” seriously.

joyous –
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thanks – I were signin’ th’ petition las’ week, an’ passed th’ link along…
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Wha’ I be tryin’ t’ find out is if thar be anyone countin’ how many’ve signed so far?
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On th’ off chance, ye know, tha’ it mi’ be considered “newsworthy.”
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Were th’ numbers a’ th’ link an’ I missed it someways>
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Arrgh!

“That’s B.S. In any single-payer country (including the ones you cite) medical care would be provided”
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Right, it just may not be provided in time . . . .

We’ve had comments here in Swampland from people in other countries with a single payer system and their opinion of it has been overwhelmingly positive. If we are the best country in the world, shouldn’t we be able to make an American system of single payer at least rank higher than the for profit system we have now? I refuse to believe that countries that have much less than we do can provide their citizens with better care at a much cheaper cost unless our system is so inherently corrupt that it isn’t worth saving in the first place. I think it’s up to the for profit system to prove to us that they’re worth saving. It’s time for them to give us our money’s worth or else get the hell out of the way.

We be needin’ several items on th’ table in order fer health care reform t’ happen – tort reform, adoptin’ best practices, electronic health record-keepin’, studyin’ t’ figure out which treatments be workin’ and which be not, shiftin’ from fee-fer-service t’ quality team care, individuals bein’ more proactive wi’ their own health, t’ be namin’ a few.
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Bu’ most o’ all, we need t’ be movin’ t’ a single-pay system fer all.
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We can be movin’ gradual-like, wi’ a public option fer anyone tha’ wants t’ opt in to, bu’ th’ endin’ needs t’ be single-pay. Anythin’ else be doomed t’ fail.
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Th’ reason health insurance corporations an’ drug corporations, an’ th’ AMA, an’ th’ Republicans, an’ a sad lot o’ Democrats, too, don’t want t’ even be givin’ th’ public option a chance be tha’ they be knowin’ if a real program were out there, an’ it were popular, their jig would be up. They be only tryin’ t’ protect their profits a’ the expense o’ our health an’ our economic security.
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All th’ rest o’ th’ arguments be smoke an’ mirrors.
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An, spongy, go f yerself!
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Arrgh!
.
Arrgh!

‘Right, it just may not be provided in time . . .’
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You’re making up stuff again. Can you cite any evidence that life threatening illnesses are ignored or treatments excessively delayed in England or Canada?
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There are far too many examples (including here on Swampland) of people who have been left to die by their insurance companies here in the U.S.

Oh – an’ we be needin’ th Democratic Congress an’ President t’ be in possession o’ the testicular fortitude t’ quit namby-pambyin’ around an’ make it happen!
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Arrgh!

An’ we be needin spongy t’ go f ‘imself!
.
Arrgh!

Come on PD, private enterprise has gotten a bad rap in here.

pirate wench: I am in awe of your way with words. I suggest a contest. We both dress up like good religious people, enter adjoining confessional booths and the first one to make their priest pass out wins. There’s a bottle of rum with one of our names on it. Of course it might be more fun to split the bottle and compare notes.

Sacred at 5:50: As I’ve said before, my wife and I pay an equivalent of 75$/month for excellent coverage–combined that is! I’d say the dems (if they really wanted reform, mind you), should run ads with expats from the dozens of countries around the globe who share my access to extremely affordable insurance/quality care. God knows we wouldn’t want to see outright foreigners declaring that they possess something of higher quality, so maybe expats would be more palatable.
~
I know this might violate sacrosanct exceptionalism, but nothing’s scarier than the unknown. Average Americans might be under the false notion that their neighbors just to the north are entwined in a Stalinist death-grip, or have bleak communist bloc visions of the rest of the free world (i.e. the long list of countries at Wikipedia with universal health coverage).

Easy debunkin’ o’ th’ myths spongy an’ those o’ like dishonesty (spiritual, ethical, moral an’ intellectual) be perveyin’ ‘ere lately:
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http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/06/07-0
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Spongy – go f yerself!
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Arrgh!

Didn’t the Canadian Supreme Court just conclude, “Access to a waiting list is not health care . . . .”?

‘Come on PD, private enterprise has gotten a bad rap in here.’
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I suggest you go back to the top of this thread. You know – the part with the title ‘When Health Insurance Isn’t Health Insurance’. Read KT’s post again and take the time to watch the C-Span video clip. Then come back and tell us why you think these vultures don’t deserve a ‘bad rap’. Or maybe you’ll realize that the ‘bad rap’ is well deserved.

sacred – duelin’ confessions…mighty temptin, me hearty, MIGHTY temptin’!
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On th’ other hand, I be ri’ impressed wi’ your way wi’ words too…I’m optin’ fer sharin’ th’ bottle an’ comparin’ notes .
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An’ Spongy…
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Arrgh!

Direct quote from th’ link:
.
“There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists’ care, and much longer waits for elective surgery.”
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Spongy, go f yerself!
.
Arrgh!

sacred –
I need t’ be signin’ off fer a bit…so,
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I’ll be thinkin’ o ye tomorrow…hopin’ yer back is better an’ tha’ th’ prostate exam be just “routine.” An’ tryin’ t’ dispense wi’ th’ imagery o’ men ye not be lovin, fingers, asses, rings, watches, an’ th’ like, me hearty! Drink up!
.
Arrgh!

pirate wench: My wife would have had to wait for other 3 months to get an appointment with a specialist that was covered by our HMO and she had lost a third of her weight due to illness. This is a system we shouldn’t change? We wound up paying a huge fee out of pocket to see a specialist outside of our coverage. Tell me again why our system is so special.

sacredh (‘Tell me again why our system is so special.’),
meet jcapan (‘…this might violate sacrosanct exceptionalism’).
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How many times have you heard a pol say that the solution to the health care crisis must be ‘uniquely American’? Haven’t you wished you could ask: Really? Why?

sacredh, good luck tomorrow.

And just for the record I don’t post what’s going on with our family for sympathy or because I think we’re special. I post because I know our case is NOT special. I think that people need to hear the stories of health care failures of US system. Not that I think it will change spob’s mind. He thinks that luck and good judgment on his part will keep him from experiencing the need for any sort of safety net in his life. I don’t wish ill on anyone so I’ll hope the same for him, while still agreein’ with Pirate Wench’s heartfelt, “Go f yourself! ARRRRGGGHHH”

Didn’t the Canadian Supreme Court just conclude, “Access to a waiting list is not health care . . . .”?
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And so we arrive at that special time of day when spob stops responding to the evidence presented and falls back to repeating fundamental conservative assumptions over and over.
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It’s almost as beautiful as a sunset.

Actually, very nice dodge on diverting attention from the issue to Rush Limbaugh, who is only an example of one of many who would pay more. You said people were harmed by it, and also, the “millions who work hard and TCB” are us, spob, and NOT you. Or did you forget, somehow, that McCain never uttered the words:
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“middle class”
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“PD, look at all the cool stuff we have in America–most of it was brought to you by private enterprise.”
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Actually, spob, you are totally and innately wrong. The mechanics and physics behind every widget, gadget, or doohickey you can name was first mapped out by research, often under government auspices and funding.
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Three words:
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National Science Foundation
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53_3 24, spob 0.

Cliff:
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spob believes in Rush Limbaugh, speaking of the Anointed One.
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And Rush believes strongly that tax loopholes are ok and so are perks and humongous bonuses paid out in times of peril on the government dime.
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In short, spob believes is welfare for corporations and for the rich, and if we aren’t forking out money by the boatload to them and worshiping them like he does, then we are commie pinko rats.

Also, Cliff, as spob pointed out earlier, these are political problems, whether we like it or not!

Just fer fun…
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Wha’ be th’ total amount o’ dollars paid by individuals an’ businesses in th’ US in health insurance premiums ev’ry year?
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An, wha’ be th’ total amount spent on out o’ pocket medical expenses not covered by said insurances?
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Now, just supposin all tha’ money, instead o’ goin’ t’ pay fer profits an’ overhead an’ non-covered expenses, were instead, in th’ form o’ a progressive sort o’ tax, goin’ into a single-payer system tha’ covered everyone?
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An’ just supposin’ there were more savins t’ be had fr’m reformin’ other aspects o’ th’ system li’ I mentioned above?
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How much more, really, would a single-payer system cost us, than wha’ we be payin’ in one form ‘r another now?
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An’ how much better care mi’ we be gettin’ under such a system than we be gettin’ now?
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Wouldn’t we be better off?
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Now…why isn’t anyone currently steerin’ this ship askin’ ‘r answerin’ questions li’ these?
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Aside fr’m th’ obvious reason tha’ they don’t want t’ be knowin, an’ they don’t want us t’ be knowin’, o’ course!
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Spongy – go f yerself!

spob believes in Rush Limbaugh, speaking of the Anointed One.
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In all fairness, I believe spob has stated that he’s not a fan of Limbaugh or O’Reilly.
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I haven’t noticed any discernible distance between their views (maybe Limbaugh is more religious? I’m not sure) but I don’t think he venerates the GOP’s Whale God.

I agree Cliff, but it’s a difference without a distinction.
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pirate wench, did you see those articles I posted a while on the benefits to business of the single payer system?
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It’s astonishing to see spob, who professes to be “pro-business”, wish to see US businesses permanently saddled with overhead (amounting to an equivalent of $5/hour that contributes significantly to their inability to compete here and abroad.

Here they are again:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-mcmanus21-2009jun21,0,4842819.column
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Here’s another:
http://pww.org/article/articleview/16039/

This is Business Week’s take:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_15/b3979134.htm
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Crunch all you want. We’ll make more…

.
Some interesting detail about how the UK handles cost control.

When foreign policy isn’t foreign policy:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/22/slight-majority-approves-of-obamas-handling-of-iran/

Why do many Canadians come here for healthcare? And why is medical tourism so popular in England?
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Both questions assume facts not in evidence. Do you have any source for actual data that supports the implied assertions or are we just supposed to believe because…you know someone who…?
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Why are so many of the patients at the new medical tourist spots in the India and Singapore from the US? Even more interesting, why do for-profit insurance companies (who are supposedly basing premium levels on US costs) paying for medical procedures at those same spots?

53 – I missed ‘em, but I got ‘em now – an’ I be thankin’ ye!
.

53 – I be still lookin’ fer more recent, specific dollar figures as outlined in me post – they weren’t there in th’ links I were openin fr’m ye (except fer th’ business figures fr’m 2004)…keep ‘em comin, mate!
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An someone b’sides me will have t’ be doin’ th’ crunchin’ – Stuart, mayhaps?
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Spongy – go f yerself!

joyousmn: Thanks for the concern. And just for the record, everyone of us is special. Everyone of us is important and deserves the same shot at affordable care as anyone else. I’m lucky and I know it. I would gladly see my healthcare payments double if it meant that people not as fortunate as me would be covered. My taxes support one hell of a lot of things I don’t support or care about so I have no problem with my taxes (and others) going to support programs that I consider basic human rights.

An someone b’sides me will have t’ be doin’ th’ crunchin’ – Stuart, mayhaps?
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Spongy – go f yerself!
-
PIRATE WENCH HAS A NEW SCHTICK! YAY!!!
-
BTW, going wayyy back to the cookie discussion, I’ve offered to make them for a few folks here. In fact I’m getting a lot of pressure at work to make up another batch. Trying to decide if a triple batch will keep the barbarians at bay.

yutsano –
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‘e started it!
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I think it be th’ perfect response – expressin’ me contempt wi’out actual providin’ ‘im wi’ any additional traction ;0.
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In addition t’ that, it just be makin’ me be feelin’ complete happy an’ content t’ be sayin’ ‘t!

sacredh, the word I should have used was “unique.” As in, unfortunately what we are going through, and what that poor woman in KT’s video are going through is not unique. It’s happening to far too many. But we all need to speak out so that it doesn’t get brushed under the rug and ignored. Although it still maybe ignored. I’ve been speaking out since 2004 and nothing has changed. With our current crop of politicians it may not change now.

KT – new thread, please, lassie!
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Spongy, go f yerself!
.
Arrgh!

A new thread would be nice. A “1000 Words” with Sanford would be even better. One with him in a car would be perfect.

pirate wench:
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Sorry, I thought they were. CNN had a story last week on the same subject. It was there that I saw the $5/hour figure.
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I do know that when I do a printout of my benefits, I pay $132 and my employer pays $982, so it’s in the same ballpark. So is the $10,000 to $12,000 / year I saw earlier this year as average expenses per employee.
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BTW, did you make spob walk the plank? I think either you made shark snacks outta him or he’s on another blog, boasting about how he PWNED us all…

53 –
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I be wonderin’ th’ same meself, bucko, an’ be hopin’ it be th’ former! If tha’ be all it be takin’ t’ be gettin’ rid o’ th’ dead-clam brains invadin’ us ‘ere, I’ll be settin’ th’ same sites on hula, texty, an’ th’ rest o’ th’ lot whenever they be tossin’ their slimy grapplin’ hooks o’er th’ rails!
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Honest – I don’t be mindin’ honest, differin’ opinion discussion, bu’in 99.99999999999% o’ their postin’s, it be th’ only response they be deservin’.
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Spongy, go F yerself!
.
Arrgh!

pirate wench:
.
Apollyon07 is the only one in that 0.0000000000001% remaining, I think.
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I just love it when spob kicks his own arse and declares it a victory!

“The discipline of the market can and often is bypassed.”
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That’s not quite right. The discipline of the market – really business – is to make money. Period. And that can lead to all sorts of negative consequences if not properly watched and regulated. “Free-market” dogma’s biggest failing is pretending that’s not the case. It’s second biggest failing is not recognizing that corporate control of its own essential regulator, government, is the worst of all possible worlds.

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