A Public Plan (Cont’d.)

Today’s NYT has a poll confirming what we saw last week in the Wall Street Journal/NBC poll. Politicians may be deeply divided over the most contentious issue in the health care debate; the public is not. The poll found 72% in favor of “the government’s offering everyone a government administered health insurance plan like Medicare that would compete with private health insurance plans.” It won support even from half of those who identified themselves as Republicans.

Still, the NYT tells us, there are crosscurrents in how people feel about health care in general and how they feel about their own coverage. Those give us a sense of where opponents are likely to take their argument in the coming months–and why President Obama keeps reassuring Americans that if they like what they have, they can keep it.:

Yet the survey also revealed considerable unease about the impact of heightened government involvement, on both the economy and the quality of the respondents’ own medical care. While 85 percent of respondents said the health care system needed to be fundamentally changed or completely rebuilt, 77 percent said they were very or somewhat satisfied with the quality of their own care.

That paradox was skillfully exploited by opponents of the last failed attempt at overhauling the health system, during former President Bill Clinton’s first term. Sixteen years later, it underscores the tricky task facing lawmakers and President Obama as they try to address the health system’s substantial problems without igniting fears that people could lose what they like.

And there was more:

It is not clear how fully the public understands the complexities of the government plan proposal, and the poll results indicate that those who said they were following the debate were somewhat less supportive.

But they clearly indicate growing confidence in the government’s ability to manage health care. Half of those questioned said they thought government would be better at providing medical coverage than private insurers, up from 30 percent in polls conducted in 2007. Nearly 60 percent said Washington would have more success in holding down costs, up from 47 percent.

Sixty-four percent said they thought the federal government should guarantee coverage, a figure that has stayed steady all decade. Nearly 6 in 10 said they would be willing to pay higher taxes to make sure that all were insured, with 4 in 10 willing to pay as much as $500 more a year.

And a plurality, 48 percent, said they supported a requirement that all Americans have health insurance so long as public subsidies were offered to those who could not afford it. Thirty-eight percent said they were opposed.

In a follow-up interview, Matt Flurkey, 56, a public plan supporter from Plymouth, Minn., said he could accept that the quality of his care might diminish if coverage was universal. “Even though it might not be quite as good as what we get now,” he said, “I think the government should run health care. Far too many people are being denied now, and costs would be lower.”

While the survey results depict a nation desperate for change, it also reveals a deep wariness of the possible consequences. Half to two-thirds of respondents said they worried that if the government guaranteed health coverage, they would see declines in the quality of their own care and in their ability to choose doctors and get needed treatment.

“It is the responsibility of the government to guarantee insurance for all,” said Juanita Lomaz, a 65-year-old office worker from Bakersfield, Calif. “But my care will get worse because they’ll have to limit care in order to cover everyone.”

When asked their opinion of specific changes being considered in Washington, three-fourths of those surveyed said they favored requiring health insurers to cover anyone, regardless of pre-existing medical conditions. Only a fifth supported taxing employer-provided health benefits to help pay the cost of coverage for the uninsured. And there was deep uncertainty about whether employers should be required to either help insure their workers or pay into a fund for covering the uninsured.

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  • bitterpill8

    I read that, too, KT. But Kent Conrad claims he does not have the votes for a public plan. Of course he will re-discover who actually votes when he is next up for election. For now his voters are in the Senate. And didn’t Dodd say the Senate is owned by the banks. Let’s add insurance and pharmacare gangs to that mix. This is too depressing, as is the news from Iran.

  • http://mzmartipants.wordpress.com/ mzmartipants

    This is one of the greatest examples of how little the political will of the people matters anymore, be it from the left, right, or center. This is just proof of how lopsided the balance of power between the will of the people and the will of the corporations are. More than anything, this chasm has me discouraged of the future of this nation. What happens to a nation that doesn’t listen or respond to its people?

  • gysgt213

    “When asked their opinion of specific changes being considered in Washington, three-fourths of those surveyed said they favored requiring health insurers to cover anyone, regardless of pre-existing medical conditions.”
    .
    I’m not sure what people do not understand about “for profit.” Insurance companies can not make a profit covering pre-existing conditions. Does any one seriously think that if the government required health insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions, the insurance companies wont’ respond by not covering entire conditions at all? What you will end up with is the government picking up the tab any way.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Some interesting cross numbers.
    .
    “One in four said that in the last 12 months they or someone in their household had cut back on medications because of the expense, and one in five said someone had skipped a recommended test or treatment.”
    .
    “Eighty-six percent of those polled said rising costs posed a serious economic threat.”
    .
    And then…”And only a fourth said that keeping health costs down was a more urgent need than providing coverage for the country’s nearly 50 million uninsured”
    .
    Perhaps people are more altruistic than I thought. Or maybe just more sophisticated as having more people covered will bring down costs. Fewer emergency room visits, preventive care, etc.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “Does any one seriously think that if the government required health insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions, the insurance companies wont’ respond by not covering entire conditions at all? ”
    .
    gunny, that’s why the conversation being framed as universal insurance rather than universal healthcare is so damaging.

  • gysgt213

    “President Obama as they try to address the health system’s substantial problems without igniting fears that people could lose what they like.”
    .
    People are going to lose what they like any way. All they have to do right now is to get sick enough.

  • carotexas1

    Health care cost do not discriminate, Fifty percent of Republicans said they were for a public plan in this poll.
    .
    Here are some more statistics that Halparin posted.
    http://thepage.time.com/more-from-the-nytcbs-news-poll-on-health-care/

  • gysgt213

    CNN is showing apparently new protests in Iran. The Iranian government has been pulling all the old tricks of arresting the supposed leaders, hoping this will all die down and its not working.

  • trifecta55

    It was Dick Durbin who said the banks owned the Senate. Campaign finance reform is our only salvation. They don’t represent “us”. They don’t. Does anybody really believe the people on North Dakota are clamoring for Kent Conrad to jump in the metaphorical hot tub with big pharma and big HMO?
    .
    Really?

  • trifecta55

    It is harder for Rush Limbaugh to tell wingnuts that their healthcare is wonderful when they know it isn’t. He has strong listenership in rural manufacturing areas with cultural conservatives. The problem is that they are underinsured like crazy out there.
    .
    Sure Mary Landrieu, Ben Nelson, Kent Conrad are bought and paid for, so there is that… but even wingnuts are not crazy enough to know what their health insurance experience has been like.

  • gysgt213

    Roger Cohen has an excellent post up about the events in Iran.
    .
    I don’t know where this uprising is leading. I do know some police units are wavering. That commander talking about his family was not alone. There were other policemen complaining about the unruly Basijis. Some security forces just stood and watched. “All together, all together, don’t be scared,” the crowd shouted.
    .
    I also know that Iran’s women stand in the vanguard. For days now, I’ve seen them urging less courageous men on. I’ve seen them get beaten and return to the fray. “Why are you sitting there?” one shouted at a couple of men perched on the sidewalk on Saturday. “Get up! Get up!”
    .
    Another green-eyed woman, Mahin, aged 52, staggered into an alley clutching her face and in tears. Then, against the urging of those around her, she limped back into the crowd moving west toward Freedom Square. Cries of “Death to the dictator!” and “We want liberty!” accompanied her.
    .
    There were people of all ages. I saw an old man on crutches, middle-aged office workers and bands of teenagers. Unlike the student revolts of 2003 and 1999, this movement is broad.
    .
    “Can’t the United Nations help us?” one woman asked me. I said I doubted that very much. “So,” she said, “we are on our own.”
    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/opinion/21tehran.html?ref=opinion

  • rose83

    While 85 percent of respondents said the health care system needed to be fundamentally changed or completely rebuilt, 77 percent said they were very or somewhat satisfied with the quality of their own care.
    .
    This is the actual wording of the quality of care question: “What about the health care you receive? Are you generally satisfied or dissatisfied with the quality of the health care you receive? Would you say you are very (satisfied/dissatisfied) or somewhat (satisfied/dissatisfied)?”
    .
    Couldn’t that be read as asking about your satisfaction with your doctors and other medical personnel you interact with? I’m not sure that’s particularly relevant to this discussion. It’s quite possible to like your doctor’s care but dislike your health care plan.
    .
    “It is the responsibility of the government to guarantee insurance for all,” said Juanita Lomaz, a 65-year-old office worker from Bakersfield, Calif. “But my care will get worse because they’ll have to limit care in order to cover everyone.”
    .
    That’s quite encouraging. Lomaz is buying into rather absurd attacks on government health care – French office workers get better health care than American office workers – but still maintaining her support for health care reform. The generosity is also nice to see.

  • choska

    @Trifecta. Hate to disagree with you but I think you are totally wrong about Limbaugh and Republican voters. They are MORE than crazy enough to believe that their health care is fantastic. And if there are problems it is because of the Mexicans or, as Limbaugh said last week, people who exercise. He actually said that people who exercise, ride bikes, etc. and get hurt are the ones who are driving up health care costs.
    .
    One thing you can also count on is that the mainstream media won’t do a much better job than Limbaugh is shedding light on difficult questions. To quote Atrios, here is who is on the Sunday morning talking head shows:
    .
    This Week has Lindsey Graham, Chris Dodd, and a panel recorded in 1996 with Sam Donaldson, Cokie Roberts, George Will, and Robert Reich.
    .
    Face the Nation has President John McCain.
    .
    Meet the Press has Netanyahu, Secretary of Defense Sam Nunn, and Chief Justice Fred Thompson.
    .
    Lets take a closer look at Meet the Press. Their guests this week include Sam Nunn and Fred Thompson: two guys who are out of elected office, and who didn’t have that much power when they did hold elected office. You can be sure that the lies and misinformation that Nunn, Thompson, and Netanyahu throw up today will be accepted as fact by David Gregory.
    .
    It is really hard to fathom how Gregory, whose ratings are collapsing, would choose to bring on Nunn and Thompson. Really?! At a time when the US is deep into reforming health care and the Iranians are in the midst of a huge political moment, Gregory reaches out to a relic and an actor to provide insight to his audience – his rapidly dwindling audience.
    .
    Maybe the reason that newspapers and television news are collapsing is completely unrelated to the Internet. Maybe the reason is that people have every reason to believe that anonymous tweets have more intellectual honesty than the Washington Post or NBC’s Meet the Press.
    .
    And people wonder what Americans are ignorant?! Tim Russell and

  • rose83

    gysgt213, I had noticed that women seemed to be very active in the protests.
    .
    I was just thinking yesterday that until the protests started being suppressed more violently, they must have been a lot of fun, like Joe suggested. For one thing, young men and women don’t get to spend a lot of time together in Iran, and protests are of course great occasions for little romances to develop.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “It is really hard to fathom how Gregory, whose ratings are collapsing, would choose to bring on Nunn and Thompson”
    .
    You don’t go on air with the guests you want, you go on air with the guests you can get. Gregory may be so bad that “name” guests are taking a pass.

  • carotexas1

    The news media has been pushing the Republicans on the GOVERNMENT plan, so now will say the American people do not really understand what a Public plan is.
    .
    I guess the next thing will be if the people polled understood this question?
    .
    Willingness to pay higher taxes so all can have health care: 57% willing, 37% not willing, 6% no opinion

    Among those making less than $50,000: 64% willing, 27% not willing, 8% no opinion

    Among those making more than $50,000: 52% willing, 44% not willing, 4% no opinion

  • carotexas1

    Rose 83 I have been closely watching the women since I noticed how many were participating on the streets in the runoff to the election.
    They have had a major presence since.

  • Karen Tumulty

    gunny, rose: My editor Howard Chua-Eoan just tweeted the following:

    @hchuaeaon #iranelection #neda Observation: It is tragically appropriate that the first named martyr is a woman: Neda. Women lead this revolution.

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng

    Sorta off topic, but not really. This Sully post: Why Froomkin Was Fired, explains why the media’s failure to call bull$hit makes it impossible to have a substantive debate about much of anything in this country. And McCain will be shouting drivel without pushback on two, count em two, Sunday shows this morning.

  • 53_3

    Karen:
    .
    Thanks for not relentlessly ignoring the dichotomy. It is one of the two reasons that I’ve been so harsh in my criticism.
    .
    The other reason is the continued misconception that making doctor’s care more efficient is what is needed to bring down costs. Again, it is not.
    .
    I would like to see you be more substantive and address the problem of enormously inflated hospital/clinic fees.

  • dfh

    To bad Time magazine does not have any reports on staff who are willing to ask elected representatives why they are opposed to a plan that 72% of the public is for and then persist until they get an answer. Gerorge S. on ABC sure won’t. He let Lindsey Gram get away with the Lutz talking points then giggled with the pannel about health care for twenty minutes. Wvng has it right about the media’s failure to call it.

  • http://mzmartipants.wordpress.com/ mzmartipants

    @dfh it’s why blogs hold so much power and why so many bloggers are being teased with access. Time, like most of the establishment MSM, don’t want to hit too hard because of their access to the political class.

    @53_3 There isn’t just one thing that is driving the cost up.

  • 53_3

    mzmartipants:
    .
    Of course, but unnecessary procedures, even at 30%, are not the driver. Real medical expenses are not encountered when seeing the doctor via appointments at the doctors’ office. I have a brother in law who had a severe case of walking pneumonia and nearly died.
    .
    The bulk of the cost:
    .
    The rehab clinic, where he spent three+ months, who charged $4000 / day for his inpatient care. Doctor’s fees were a small part of the total $550,000 bill.
    .
    This is just one example. I have about 35 family and freinds my age (55) to draw experiences from. These experiences are very instructive…

  • dennisokeefe

    We have thousands of people in the health care industry making millions of dollars a yr on the illness,pain,grief of americans. We need single payer, paid for by taxes, like roads,sewer systems and the military…at the very least an affordable public option[voluntary] and major controls on health ins companies…just as most half intelligent people have learned we need to control the financial sector.

  • FlownOver

    Exactly why are our senators and representatives so much more concerned about respecting the will of the Iranians about their leadership than the will of the folks here at home about heath care reform?

  • buzzorhowl

    The 77% figure that is very or somewhat satisfied with their current health care may be misleading. I myself pay out of pocket for all medical care that I receive, but I have a regular doctor that I see at least twice a year because I have chronic hypertension and need regular checkups/prescription renewals. I like my doctor quite a bit, and feel that I get very good health care from him and his office, but I’m paying out of pocket for it, which costs me somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000 a year. I don’t even make $20k a year (before taxes), so while I’m satisfied with the health care I receive, I’m not at all satisfied with the cost of it. So how should I answer that question? I’m not sure.

  • pafro

    I will say it again:
    -The 74% of Republicans “very concerned” about deficits (a new phenomenon, from what I can gather) are very important people who must be paid attention to and pandered to at any and all occasions.
    -The 72% of Americans who want “government-run healthcare” are obviously all foul-mouthed liberal bloggers and should be “Froomkined”.

  • FlownOver

    Republicans are concerned about deficits solely because deficits are one of their agreed themes used to attack Obama, regardless of the question they’re asked. I’ll have a lot more respect for the media when reporters call the Republicans on this stale tactic, and call them again when they try to change the subject.

  • pafro

    Just once someone should poll, in conjunction with whether or not we are satisfied with our healthcare, on whether we think insurance companies have our best interests at heart, or whether we fear our insurance will drop us if we get cancer.

  • thefoff

    85% of Americans think our health care system needs to be rebuilt. 72% want a public option. And Congress just wants to continue getting millions of dollars from the health insurance companies. When was the last time 85% or 72% of Americans agreed about anything?? Yet again, the media are saying “this might falter”. If health care reform isn’t important enough to Congress to get it done this year, then it is time to not just go to the polls and vote, but to start getting a few key members of Congress recalled by the constituents for failing to represent them. I, for one, will be the first in line since my Congressperson has already publicly said he will not support health care reform, despite the fact that 85% of the people in his district want it. It is time for the Voters to have their say. The voters of California recalled their governor. We can recall some Congress people as well.

  • destor23

    Why do we assume that people being satisfied with the coverage they have now is somehow bad news for public plan advocates? If the public plan turns out to be better than coverage that people are already satisfied with, they’ll be satisfied with the public plan too. There’s a false notion going around that a public plan won’t be as good as private ones. But that doesn’t have to be the case.

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng

    I am satisfied with the insurance coverage I have now – because I have not made any significant demands on it. I have no doubt I will be much less satisfied on that dark cold day when/if a great need arises.
    .
    The correct questions should be framed around performance of the “system” at extremity. And we know a lot about that, as more than 50% of bankruptcies in this country are related to medical bills, many of those for the insured. See: Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies.
    .
    And we know, from TR Reid’s excellent FrontPage documentary, that the very idea of someone going bankrupt due to medical bills is “unthinkable” in countries with a national system – any national system.

  • gysgt213

    Footage you just have to see. No one is over talking. It appears to be a rock battle between the crowd and the police in Iran. Watch all the way to the end to see who wins.
    .
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/2009/06/090621_ag_street_clashes.shtml

  • pafro

    gysgt213, that is crazy video. We need to have a standoff like that: The American people vs. the insurance industry and Presidents Nelson and Gingrich

  • destor23

    Just curious, but why are folks posting Iran stuff in this healthcare thread? Usually people do that to signal to the big media that we’d like another issue covered but… seems there’s a ton of Iran stuff on Swampland and that health insurance is at least as big an issue.

  • bitterpill8

    Thanks Gunny. Ironic indeed. The Dems could take away a lesson from this when next the 27% Repubs attack.

  • arayshaw

    The Congressional Budget Office and Government Accounting Office have been saying for years that single payer is the most feasible alternative to our current system.

    Poll for years have consistently show that a large majority of Americans support a nationalized health care system funded by the government, even if it means raising their taxes:

    A 2003 national poll by ABC News and the Washington Post found that 62% of Americans preferred “a universal health insurance program, in which everyone is covered under a program like Medicare that’s run by the government and financed by taxpayers.” By 2008, CNN found 64% favoring such a plan.

    In 2008, 59% of physicians representing many specialties declared their support for Single Payer (http://www.pnhp.org/news/2008/april/twice_as_many_physic.php).

    Sen.Max Baucus, chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, has even taken out of consideration the reform plan preferred by the majority of Americans, the majority of physicians, and the GAO and CBO–single payer.

    In addition, he has ejected from his hearings nurses and doctors trying to speak out about Single Payer’s conspicuous absence from the table. Obviously it is the spin-doctors, not real doctors, who are controlling this debate.

  • http://health.fimmr.com/2009/06/support-for-public-health-insurance-time-magazine/ Support for Public Health Insurance (Time Magazine) – Health Web Blog

    [...] the original post:  Support for Public Health Insurance (Time Magazine) var addthis_pub="khoapham"; // Tags: poll-confirming, the-public, street-journal, public, [...]

  • 53_3

    Here is a couple items of interest on the deficit issues relating to health care reform:
    .
    The first is that under Bush, before the election, at least 7,400,000,000,000 dollars was disbursed by the Treasury for any and all in the banking industry
    http://investment-blog.net/cost-of-bailout-hits-85-trillion-total-sum-represents-60-per-cent-of-gdp/
    .
    NOTE that this is from the financials, and NOT a partisan article. This is presented as evidence of the hypocrisy of the GOP.
    .
    The second is that business would benefit greatly from single payer, or, at least, a public option:
    http://blogs.findlaw.com/free_enterprise/2009/06/health-care-reform-study-sees-benefits-for-small-businesses.html
    .
    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-mcmanus21-2009jun21,0,4842819.column

  • textee

    This “poll” is as bogus as the so-called 1960s era “Texas Air National Guard” so-called “documents” that Dan Rather, Mary Mapes, 60 Minutes and CBS cooked up on 21st century Microsoft Word software. Of the 73% of respondents in this “poll” who admitted to voting in the 2008 presidential election, 66% (66%!) of respondents voted for the socialist candidate. Only 34% voted for McCain. http://documents.nytimes.com/latest-new-york-times-cbs-news-poll-on-healt#p=1

    -

    Is anyone surprised that the 66% who voted for a socialist also support socialized medicine?

  • yutsano

    I keep thinking (or hoping) that the future of health care in this country is what I have now. I have a private insurer through my employer and I also have Medicare. My health needs are pretty much all taken care of and my bills are very manageable if I get billed for anything at all. It seems to me to be the best of both worlds. Would it be so difficult to just have Medicare be your secondary insurer if you have insurance and if not your primary?

  • bitterpill8

    I haven’t seen sgwhiteinfla for a while. Anyone know whether he has opted out? Is he upset with us?

    Yutsano: bless you. Keep what you have. There are a lot of people out there who wish they were in your shoes.

  • http://www.healthtime.co.il/health/2009/06/support-for-public-health-insurance-time-magazine/ Support for Public Health Insurance (Time Magazine) | health

    [...] See the original post: Support for Public Health Insurance (Time Magazine) [...]

  • Karen Tumulty

    bitter: sgwhite tweeted today that he has just returned from having been gone for about a week. i was concerned about him, too. hopefully, he will be back here soon.

  • stuartzechman

    KT:
    .
    While 85 percent of respondents said the health care system needed to be fundamentally changed or completely rebuilt, 77 percent said they were very or somewhat satisfied with the quality of their own care.
    .
    I wonder how many of that 77 percent are Medicare recipients, or have Medicare recipients in their families?
    .
    Don’t you?

  • jcapan

    “… Gregory, whose ratings are collapsing …”
    ~
    Drink! That’s simply excellent.
    ~
    “Maybe the reason that newspapers and television news are collapsing is completely unrelated to the Internet. Maybe the reason is that people have every reason to believe that anonymous tweets have more intellectual honesty than the Washington Post or NBC’s Meet the Press.”
    ~
    Totally agree, but are TV ratings (cable at least) collapsing? I can’t see any of it from here (god bless) and hadn’t heard any mention of this? I’d be thrilled if it were so.
    ~
    As for that 72%, kudos to Americans–despite all the media disinformation, despite their bought and paid for congressional “representatives,” they seem to have come to a most rational decision. It’s almost as if two realities, two narratives, hell, Edwards’ two Americas are in play here. I guess the question is if Washington will do the people’s business, or, as in Iran, side against their own citizens.
    ~
    After all, water cannons and batons are not the only weapons to keep the rabble in their place.

  • jcapan

    And for those who haven’t seen GG’s Froom update:
    ~
    “Referencing the Froomkin essay I posted the other day on the (abdicated) duty of journalists to ‘call bullsh!t’ on government officials, Law Professor Kevin Jon Heller recounts a conversation he had this week with a high British government official:
    ~
    ‘It’s difficult not to feel despair at the increasing banality of journalism in the US. A couple of days ago, I had the privilege of spending the evening with Lord Carlile of Berriew, who has served as the UK’s Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation since 9/11. He has no binding authority, but he insisted that his power to “name and shame” gives him a great deal of actual influence over the content of antiterrorism legislation. And indeed, it seems clear that many of the UK’s imperfect antiterrorism laws would have been far less perfect but for his efforts.’
    ~
    I found Lord Carlile’s discussion of his ‘soft power’ fascinating, so I asked him why he thinks the power to name-and-shame has almost no effect in the United States, where those who are named as the intellectual authors of repressive legislation feel no shame and suffer no consequences for their actions. He gave a very simple answer: journalists. I won’t repeat some of the words that he used to describe just how pathetic he considers US political journalism, but it’s clear that he believes it has completely abdicated its duty to — as Froomkin describes it — call bullsh!t on the government.
    ~
    There are many reasons why establishment media discussions of our political conflicts are so incomplete, distorted, vapid and unsatisfying. But one significant reason is that one of the most important causes of our decayed political culture is a topic which is excluded almost completely from those discussions: namely, the central role the establishment media itself — with its uncritical and loyal subservience to political power — plays in enabling and protecting that decay.”

  • Karen Tumulty

    SZ: Very good question. I’m going to look for the actual poll question. Was interesting that the WSJ poll a few days back targeted questions to those who have private insurance.

  • Karen Tumulty

    SZ: Here’s the actual poll. If we knew the answers from the under-65 set, we’d know. They did ask an age question of the respondents, but didn’t post the crosstabs (at least, not that I could find).
    .
    http://documents.nytimes.com/latest-new-york-times-cbs-news-poll-on-health#p=11

  • jcapan

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/2009/06/090621_ag_street_clashes.shtml
    ~
    Maybe all of you 6pm’ers have seen this, but it’s awesome. The people chasing the police off (at the end).

  • messenia

    President Obama said that anyone who was satisfied with his plan could keep it. He didn’t say though, how that would be possible if one works for one of a growing number of companies who think what is going on today is unsustainable and are sharply cutting back on benefits
    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/business/15insure.html
    .
    Nor did he address the issue of not being able to actually get care because ones health dollars were completely consumed by the premiums.
    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/16/health/policy/16mass.html?scp=1&sq=massachusetts%20healthcare&st=cse
    .
    Soon we’ll find that government employees will be the only people with employer-paid (taxpayer actually), full coverage. That’s okay though, because President Obama also told us that everyone would be able to opt into a plan that would deliver coverage comparable to Congress.
    .
    The bogus “public option” doesn’t stand a chance in hell because a crippled public insurance plan will do nothing toward cost containment, will cover relatively few people, and will cost a fortune to initiate. Nor will it do anything about the bankrupting effect the current model is having on individuals, companies, and the nation. All these CBO estimates should be scary; the plans are all illconceived attempts to preserve the primacy of a collapsing model: employer-paid, for profit insurance.
    .
    I suggest that the administration should start talking to various Fortune 500 executives — all of whom do business internationally — and ask them which of the various Single Payer, Universal Health*care* models they prefer and why. Then he should get commitment for them to support whatever that is at current benefit levels and go forward with REFORM. That’s the only path out of the mess that has any hope of delivering what President Obama talked about. It has the added advantage of costing far less than what we as a nation are now spending.

  • carotexas1

    I think I am going to give up hope.
    Now Dianne Feinstein has joined the Republicans on health care gloom and doom. What is wrong with the Senate Dems?
    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/22/health/policy/22healthcare.html?_r=1&hp

  • rose83

    Is anyone surprised that the 66% who voted for a socialist also support socialized medicine?
    .
    textee, in case this was a serious question, I’ll explain the 66% figure. After Presidential elections (of both Republican and Democratic Presidents) a significant proportion of poll respondents say they voted for the winning candidate when they either voted for the opposing candidate or didn’t vote at all. This is a known polling pattern that has been even more pronounced than usual this year, perhaps because Obama’s popularity is high.
    .
    It’s common for more people to claim they voted for a president than actually did. In the 1930s, George Gallup found that Franklin Delano Roosevelt was more popular in post-election polls than he was on Election Day. The same was true after the 2000 election, in which George W. Bush lost the popular vote. By 2004, polls showed Bush having won in a landslide.
    .
    Here’s the link for that quote: http://www.slate.com/id/2220803/
    .
    And here’s the data on Bush’s 2000 “landslide”: http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2004/10/the_bush_landsl.html

  • messenia

    Now Dianne Feinstein has joined the Republicans on health care gloom and doom.
    .
    What can we do? The woman can’t help that she’s sometimes shortsighted. It was inconceivable to her that Obama could beat Clinton, let alone win the presidency and she still can’t see beyond the game as she’s known it.
    .
    All of the current crop of bills should be tossed in the trash can so it really doesn’t matter what she thinks. As far as timing goes, the Democrats should wait to announce a real plan until after the November open enrollment letters go out. I predict that an even larger percentage will want to the system rebuilt at that point and will decide that the Republican “leaders” are standing in the way of effecting that reform.

  • gysgt213

    “textee, in case this was a serious question, I’ll explain the 66% figure.”
    .
    Rose-This is textee you are talking to. textee does not care about your facts and historical perspective. As a matter of fact you might get lucky and textee will respond with an insult. However I was not aware of it so, thanks a lot.

  • pafro

    I’ve heard of a general strike on July 6th by those who care about health care, with those striking basically calling and harassing Congress all day long. I am so for this, though I think weekend events would be better. I think we need to progressively ramp up the activity and take to the streets until they can’t just ignore us.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    bitterpill
    .
    I was separated against my will from my internet for a little over a week but finally the situation has been rectified. All is well now but thanks for asking. And thanks for the concern from you KT as well.
    .
    Now…..what did I miss?

  • jcapan

    “Now…..what did I miss?”
    ~
    Sullivan, Amy, went into rehab, made a brief reappearance and is now on the run somewhere with Sacred (assorted christianists and his MIL are in hot pursuit)
    ~
    Scherer, Michael, went to Eygpt, Twittered until his hands were callused, returned, and resumed hard-hitting work:
    ~
    http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/06/19/more-turmoil-in-inspectors-general-land/#comment-73590
    ~
    Klein, Joe, went to “bad countries” but returned with rational views of geopolitics (theory is he’s been possessed by the spirits)
    ~
    T, K, remains the respected darling of the Swamp, although P-luk called her a shill
    ~
    S, JN, aside from linking to Iran’s ’53 coup, I couldn’t say

  • neorationalist86

    First, let me just say that I do in fact advocate rigorous health care reform. However, when will we realize that first, public opinion in America rarely impacts policy, and second, if this country were to always listen to and act upon public opinion this nation would be further down the drain than it currently is. Thankfully, America is not a direct-democracy, it is a democratic republic.
    .
    While the health-care industry is in desperate need of reform, reform based on public opinion is neither advisable nor desirable. When will these reporters cease to equate America’s needs with Americans’ desires?

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    If you haven’t read it yet, check out Atul Gawande’s article on health care from the June 1 issue of The New Yorker. He seems to hit the nail on the head: the system is set up to pay more for more procedures, not better ones. It’s a consumption problem, among other things.
    .
    While Michael Grunwald does have a good article in TIME on the Mayo clinic that covers this issue (link below), I think Gawande’s article is dead-on.
    .
    Grunwald article: http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1905340,00.html

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    And it might help if I linked to the Gawande article:
    .
    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande?yrail

  • yutsano

    While the health-care industry is in desperate need of reform, reform based on public opinion is neither advisable nor desirable. When will these reporters cease to equate America’s needs with Americans’ desires?
    -
    There are times N-R when the public’s wants and needs are not at cross-purposes. I would propose that this is one of those times. There is enough of the public that is aware of the health system they have in Canada and they know it works very well for them. When they see how badly the Europeans and Japanese beat American auto workers on health and legacy costs, they can put two and two together and recognize that something that has existed in one form or another for over 150 years (the first universal health system was started by Bismarck in Germany) then maybe, just maybe, we can get it to work here. Personally I’m partial to the Australian system and think that would be a good model for us, but as long as we do SOMETHING that won’t bankrupt us then it will be a positive step.

  • messenia

    .
    The more relevant Gwande article at this point might be the one published in January

    Getting there from here
    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/01/26/090126fa_fact_gawande

  • stuartzechman

    Nice to see you back, SG.

  • soylent green

    rose83, Mark Crispin Miller was less impressed with that article. See his takedown here:
    .
    http://www.opednews.com/articles/Obama-won-by-MILLIONS-MORE-by-Mark-Crispin-Mille-090620-161.html
    .
    “So Gallup said that “more people claimed to [have] vote[d] for” FDR than really did? Or did he simply find that Roosevelt “was more popular in post-election polls than he was on Election Day”?”

  • http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2009/06/links-2009-06-22.html Links: 2009-06-22 – Credit Writedowns

    [...] "DePass’s comment to a friend, appalling as it was, clearly wasn’t intended to do harm, and his punishment may have exceeded the crime. At the same time, this pernicious form of passive racism has been exposed for the poison it is. If Republicans ever want to see the Oval Office again, they’ll have to purge their tent of this foul air."A Public Plan (Cont’d.) – Karen Tumulty, Swampland [...]

  • bitterpill8

    Earth to Swampland: SGL is back. Welcome.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    Aye, SG – welcome back – I were missin’ ye! Jcapan pret’ much covered wha’ ye were missin’ – nice summarizin, thar, matey!
    .
    We do be havi’ some new troll-ies, tho’ – keep yer watch out fer neorationalizationist & iLIEnidiva…an’ o’ course, Hula be back doin’ ‘er seductive dance o’ thread-spammin’ lies, distortions, an’ general unrelated insults, too…rustyan’ texty be lovin’ it ;) .
    .
    Arrgh!

  • 53_3

    Also, Rusty, of all people, got top billing in the Politics section here last week, but oddly enough, isn’t crowing about who he “pwned” or even a comment. Go figure.
    .
    An anomoly within an aberration! I still think Halperien did it…

  • http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/06/24/a-public-plan-it-depends-on-how-you-ask-the-question/ A Public Plan: It Depends On How You Ask the Question – Swampland – TIME.com

    [...] Comments (0) | Permalink | Trackbacks (0) | Email This As we have noted here before, two recent polls have shown three-quarters of the public support the idea of giving people the choice of a [...]

  • http://leisureguy.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/a-public-plan-it-depends-on-how-you-ask/ A public plan: It depends on how you ask « Later On

    [...] at 11:00 am by LeisureGuy Karen Tumulty of TIME: As we have noted here before, two recent polls have shown three-quarters of the public support the idea of giving people the choice of a [...]

  • http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/10/27/the-public-option-five-reasons-harry-reid-went-for-it/ The Public Option: Five Reasons Harry Reid Went For It – Swampland – TIME.com

    [...] The poll numbers. As Swampland readers know, the public option has enjoyed strong public support all year. But what surprised some on Capitol Hill was that it continued to do well in a more recent [...]

  • deconstructiva

    …too bad crosslinks don’t work here

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