In the Arena

The Settlements

Charles Krauthammer has a misleading and evasive column about the Israeli settlements issue. He does not deal with the legality of these towns–he can’t, of course, because they are illegal under the fourth Geneva Convention, which provides rules for occupying powers. He does not deal with the illegality, and inhumanity, of building roads for the exclusive use of settlers, roads which simply take Palestinian property, separating Palestinian farmers from their fields in some cases. He does not deal with the most basic question–the not-so-subtle effort by the settler movement and its far-right sponsors to create a Palestinian swiss cheese, rather than a governable state, on the West Bank, by riddling the area with Jewish settlements. He does not deal, although it is implicit in his xenophobic argument and in the rantings of the extremists over at the Commentary blog, with the reality that this Israeli behavior is anachronistic, a vestige of the post-1967 dream of a Greater Israel. He does not deal with the fact that the last two Likud/Kadima Prime Ministers, Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert, came to the realization that demographic reality requires a viable Palestinian state on the West Bank and in Gaza.

He rants, instead, about the inhumanity of denying “natural growth” in the settlements close to Jerusalem, which will undoubtedly be incorporated into Israel in the land swap that will accompany the two-state solution (a pact that he doesn’t believe will ever happen). No babies will be allowed to be born in these settlements, he says–as if that were even a remote possibility. The truth is, “natural growth” is a loophole, a purposely imprecise term that would allow untrammeled growth everywhere. If the Israelis were serious about this, they would propose a list of specific exceptions–some of the Israeli towns near Jerusalem–where growth would be permitted and promise an absolute end to settlement activity, roads and wall-building elsewhere, pending negotiations with the Palestinians. 

He rants, on much firmer ground, about the corruption and incompetence of the Palestinian leadership. That is undoubtedly true, and is inexcusable, just as the terror attacks on innocent Israelis are barbaric, inexcusable and require a firm response. But it is also a diversion: there will be no peace for Israel without a sovereign Palestinian state. There may be no peace for Israel, in any case; there will always be implacable Arab terrorists. But a coherent and prosperous Palestine certainly increases the odds that Israel will survive in the long run. As does an Israel that exists as a model of democracy and humanity, rather than a vehement occupier acting outside international law.

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  • jcapan

    OK, Joe, Kraut is worthy of your time. How about Chomsky, from the other end of the spectrum? Your take?
    ~
    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/06/04-16

  • neorationalist86

    I would further that Sharon and Olmert also rejected viability of a Palestinian state, evident through their brutally oppressive (especially Sharon) incitement of the Palestinians. One they provoked Hamas, they too used the “we can’t have peace because Hamas is too violent” argument.
    .
    Sharon pulled out of Gaza, yes. But in doing so he simply transferred the problem to the West Bank, immediately settling 12,000 additional and illegal Israelis there. The number now hovers over 500,000 illegal settlers in West Bank.

  • neorationalist86

    I think Chomsky is spot on in his analysis of the situation. Few may recall, but Bush II pursued a similar approach as Obama to Israel in 2001-2002. Hoping to slow the growing tide of anti-American sentiment among Arabs and thus assist in slowing terrorism, Mr. Bush targeted Israel’s expansionist policies and attempted to push for Palestinian statehood. Bush pressured Sharon on withdrawal from Gaza and encouraged dialogue with Arafat. However, Sharon vehemently rejected this new approach. There was some back-and-forth harsh rhetoric between Sharon and WH Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, if you recall.
    .
    Shortly thereafter, Israel turned up the political pressure utilizing the Israel lobby, AIPAC. 89 United States Senators authored a letter to the President demanding that he issue a public statement asserting absolute and total support for Israel and rejecting Arafat. Bush complied. Relations between US and Israel normalized. Business as usual.
    .
    Thus, what may appear to be a break from one-sided dealings with Israel will soon result in massive behind the scenes political pressure from Israel for the US to change rhetoric. Whether Obama has the courage to resist these influential sources, including the overwhelming majority of his party’s Congressmen, remains to be seen. I would venture a guess, though, that there will be no ‘change’ with regard to Israel.

  • randy80302

    Thanks for providing honest journalism on middle east issues. As a middle American it is difficult to judge reporting from spin.

    I am sure you receive much pressure to slant your work, but for readers your impartiality is comforting.

    I just let my Newsweek subscription lapse because I have been getting most of my news on the web. (and tired of George Wills BS)

    I am clicking now to subscribe to Time to contribute to support your work.

  • tc125231

    @jcapan:

    1. Chomski is not published twice a week in WaPo, and is notr, in fact, a professional bloviator. Thus your so called “balance” is fatuous.

    2. Chomski has a number of pompous and irritating tics, but he is nothing like as dishonest as Krauthammer. Furthermore, see 1. You have to go LOOKING for his stuff –he doesn’t show up on Fox News.

  • tc125231

    You do do good work Joe –as stated by randy80302. Your presentation of “Ricci” in “The Return of Hot Button Issues” was below par work, though.

    Most people who have read that case agree that –in legal terms –all the 3 judges did was strictly construe existing law. In other words, they did what Republicans always claim they want (except when they don’t): –the judges refused to legislate from the bunch. The law may have been unfair BUT IT WASN’T UNCONSTITUTIONAL –therefore, the three judges had no right to overturn it.

    Many of Sotormayer’s rulings are like that: –narrowly written, with a tendency to support the defendants in civil rights cases, and the police in cases where they are accused of overstepping their authority.

    If I had a beef –which I don’t really –it would be that I would like to see her be a bit peppier. In any case, she has been far more consistent and honest than Alito and Roberts, who insisted, during confirmation, as if butter wouldn’t melt in their mouths –that they had the greatest respect for precedent.

    As soon as they were confirmed, they started after every precedent they could with a flame thrower.

    For my money –I would rather have the real deal than a mealy mouthed appeaser one day, turned tyrant the next.

  • hellslittlestangel

    Krazyhater is not worth engaging seriously. He really is consumed by bitterness and anger. It’s all about his personality, which is why ad hominem arguments are all he deserves. Leave him to Richard Widmark, I say.

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  • bitterpill8

    Joe, are you not concerned that you are now part of the endangered species: the journalist who let’s the facts on the ground drive the argument. WaPo for all its “liberal” history is a place where a string of NeoCons have blossomed under the somewhat dubious proposition that their op-eds represent a legitimate source of ideas and viewpoints. Unfortunately the contents produced by Krauthammar ( and the Kagans and Kristol, etc) show that propaganda is now a “respectable” form of “journalism”; and cant is welcomed at the WaPo.

  • rustyreturns

    A person can cite all of the reasons for and against the Israeli – Palestinian conflicts that have been going on since 1948. The anger runs very deep with Palestinian Arabs. It is not the pre-1967 lands which are in dispute Joe. It is the fact that in 1948, Israel was in fact created. Arabs, whether they be Palestinians, Egyptians, or Jordanians continue to incite all Arabs across the globe to fight a recognized Israeli State.
    .
    I guess my first question , what is Palestine? Where is it shown in world history that there was a Palestinian State? a Country? Are not the lands now recognized as Israeli simply lands once controlled by Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt? Land that was conquered by the British during their colonial period? I do not seem to remember reading about a “Palestinian King or Mullah or Shah” who governed this area of the middle east.
    .
    In my mind and I believe in the minds of the Arabs who call themselves “Palestinians”, the disputed lands are not only those in Gaza and the West Bank, but also all of the lands now occupied by any Israeli in this region. The unfortunate thing that occurred in 1948 was lands lived on for several generations of “Palestinians”, where taken away from them, and given to Israelis. It wasn’t bought and paid for as is the usual practice when one conveys land to another. I do not think anyone will be successful in coming to an “agreement” until this more major fact is settled. Britain controlled these lands through their colonial conquests. Perhaps it is up to the British to pay for those lands that were once occupied by the Palestinians pre-1948. If consideration is not made to the Arabs, this conflict will never be settled. There will always be fighting and anger to fuel the fire of injustice that the Arabs believe was caused to them in 1948.
    .
    I think this is yet again another situation which will never go away in my lifetime, the lifetime of my children or my children’s children.

  • somepeoplelikeit

    Excessive partiality for one foreign nation, and excessive dislike of another, cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots, who may resist the intrigues of the favorite, are liable to become suspected and odious; while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests
    .
    Sorry for the long George Washington quote, but I think of this every time I think of Israel. They should be our friend and ally yes, but too much favor is not healthy for us, them or the region.

  • somepeoplelikeit

    Rusty, this may not be what you’re looking for but:
    http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_when_islam.php
    .
    As you know, 1948 was the beginning of a chapter not the book.
    From the link:
    Palestine was invaded by Muslim Arab armies during this period, capped by the capture of Jerusalem in 638 AD. The invasion was bloody for the long-established Christian and Jewish inhabitants and the countryside was devastated. This was the start of 1300 years of Muslim presence in what the Arabs called Filastin, an Arabic rendition of the name Palaestina assigned by the Romans.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    He rants, on much firmer ground, about the corruption and incompetence of the Palestinian leadership.
    .
    The only case where we can use other people’s behavior to excuse our own is when we arrest and jail criminals. Any other instance of using someone elses bad behavior to justify your own is a good working definition of hypocrisy. The fact that in the Israeli/Palastinian conflict, even more than in other war situations, the victims of retribution are never the same people as the perpetrators of the act being avenged. This is why you get the long generational conflict that Rusty evaluates so pessimistically.
    .
    My only response is my same one from yesterday.
    We might try to achieve Peace and fail but that is certainly better than not trying. I pray for progress.

  • jacobblues

    It never fails to amaze me how much the Arab/Israeli conflict remains a jobs program for the psudo-intellectuals and talking heads.
    .
    .
    Here we have Joe Klein getting paid to opine about another opiner. No wonder the news industry is falling to pieces.

  • 53_3

    Joe:
    .
    I have a question for you:
    .
    Let’s say, even if “settlements” were legal, is that even really the issue here?
    .
    More questions that you need to address that are central to the above:
    .
    1. What do Israelis do when creating new “settlements” or expanding existing ones.
    2. Who was the immediate previous owner of the land that lies under the footprints of these “settlements”?
    3. How do Israelis implement a “settlement” or expand an existing one?
    .
    This is really not about the “legality” or not of these “settlements”*1, because that so-called legality obscures other facts about them that relate to ones’ home, and how one goes about obtaining a place to live under the rule of law – by this I mean as it is intended for the average individual.
    .
    My point is that even without that additional veneer of “complexity”, the “settlements” are a morally bankrupt concept. They are entities that have their foundation in concepts like like claim jumping and ethnic cleansing*2.
    .
    *1 I never refer to them without quotes as the implication is that the land is uninhabited, open to use, and open to settlement – which in this case is clearly not true.
    .
    *2 Ethnic cleansing does not have to be accompanied by death. Ethnic cleansing is simply the removal, by whatever means, of an ethnic group from a specific geographic location.

  • merelymyopinion

    Right on, Joe. Thanks for the observations. Sane as usual.

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  • southernbell49

    The WaPo has the worst columnists out there: Will, Gerson, Broder and Krauthammer routinely say stupid stuff that is easy to disprove.

    I often disagree with David Brooks but I almost always admire how he frames his arguments.

    But the conservatives (and I’m going to include Broder in this group because he tends to kiss Republican butt and sharply criticize Dems)whose home is the WaPo routinely offer up op-eds that are just plain dumb.

  • rustyreturns

    Thank you for your link, some people. But, I am clearly aware of the holocaust of the Muslims from 600 or so AD and for nearly 1300 years afterwards.
    .
    I just wanted to point out to our esteemed Joe Klein that just drawing imaginary lines based on occupied lands since 1967 is never going to erase all the hate held by the now called Palestinians in their hearts for the Jews in Israel. The hate really became engrained in 1948, when Western Nations after WWII decided to create a “homeland” for the Jews that Hitler persecuted.
    .
    The history in this area of the world is storied with other conquests by the Romans, Babylonians (later Muslims), and Christians which goes far backward in time than 600 AD. The current Palestinians however do owe their Muslim conquerors led by the teachings of Mohammad their allegiance. The “jihad” that Mohammad unleashed in the 600′s continues today, and this in my mind is what we are fighting so far as our current “terrorist War”. Obama and all of his merry men will never bring any peace to this land, not with a “2 State” solution or anything else. The only time you shall see peace in this region is when some other conqueror steps in and redistricts the borders. I for one happen to believe that will be Jesus Christ himself.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    Expanding settlements, dismantling settlements is not the real problem. Frankly, what do about the settlements is a problem that could be easily solved by parties who were truly dedicated to establishing peace. Tell charlie to call me when he is really ready to talk about the problem, because this is nothing but a mere symptom of what is really ailing these folks.
    .
    Conservatives, everywhere in the world, have failed to recognize that a new generation is coming of age free from the visceral attachment to the grudge-match of yesteryear. This new generation is defined by its pragmatism and can rightly see that no matter how bitter their parents and grandparents become about the past, it’s going to remain the past.
    .
    Extremists of every ilk draw power from an offer to provide the means and opportunity to vent today’s frustrations. Of course, real leadership, the kind that Obama is exhibiting despite the ridiculous claims from the right, remains focused on the future. The point is not to forget history, but rather provide an opportunity for this new generation to make their own.

  • Ohg Rea Tone

    Why do so many who claim to be people of faith operate in the context of fear. President Obama is proposing a doctrine of faith rather than fear. Which is more powerful, fear or faith?

    http://thefiresidepost.com/2009/06/05/of-fear-faith-and-foreign-affairs/

  • sutter303

    I would just like to point out that the Israel-Arabs have been living more or less happily in Israel since 1948. While there have been individual incidents, they have not turned in mass to HAMAS or even FATAH. The point being that it is not impossible for Israel to live in peace with a large Arab minority within its borders.

    The difference being how the state of Israel treats Palestinians in the West Bank from those within its internationally-recognized borders. Israel-Arabs are Israel citizens and while they are subject to discrimination, they have similar rights to Jewish citizens. On the other hand, Palestinians are subject to an unbearable list of restrictions and daily humiliations by the settlers and Israel military.

    There can be peace between Israel and Arab states, look at Jordan and Egypt. The Israelis cannot have their cake and eat it too, they can’t force their enemies to stop fighting them without giving some concessions. The Sinai bought a 40 year peace with Eqypt. Who knows perhaps a withdrawal from most of the West Bank will do the same with the Palestinians.

  • neorationalist86

    rusty-

    Its disingenuous to suppose that Arab sentiment is linked directly to 1948, implying that the ultimate goal lies not with curbing Israel back to the pre-1967 borders, but with nullifying Israel as a whole. This is simply not true. Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and to an extent Syria have all made their peace (formal or informal) with Israel. Fatah has not carried out any terrorist attacks in decades and has no rhetoric calling for the destruction of Israel. Even Hamas has, on numerous occasions, accepted the land for peace premise. Notably, in 2005 a Hamas delegate was sent to Europe to negotiate with EU leaders a peace accord, whereby Hamas would cease all hostilities in return for complete Israeli withdrawal from West Bank and Golan Heights. Israel, with no intention of letting go of illegally occupied lands, warned Europe not to entertain Hamas, and the delegation was subsequently ignored.
    .
    Furthermore, the argument questioning the authenticity of a ‘Palestinian’ people should not belie the fact that these people resided in present day Israel/West Bank/Gaza for 1300 years. Call them what you will, it matters not, and will never negate the fact of their existence. And, as somepeoplelikeit noted, under the Romans the region was in fact referred to as Palaestina. Whether or not there was an officially recognized Palestinian nation is irrelevant and arguments of that notion seek only to distract from more relevant and truthful grievances.
    .
    Dee in MD
    I really hate to destroy your image of Obama, but he has shown no leadership on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I’m sorry but giving a speech in Cairo whereby he lists some US flaws, lists some Arabic flaws, quotes the Quran, Bible, and Talmud will do nothing to improve US-Middle East relations. Furthermore, his approach to Israel with regard to pressure on the settlements issue closely resemble Bush II’s efforts in 2001-2002. US-Israeli relations soured, until Sharon turned up the heat, pressing AIPAC to influence US rhetoric. AIPAC held meetings with ranking members of the US Senate and within 2 weeks 89 US Senators wrote a harshly worded letter to Bush demanding he publicly state America’s unwavering commitment to Israel. Bush caved, the expansionist policies of Israel were ignored, and relations normalized. I am confident such pressure on Obama has already begun behind the scenes and his approach to the conflict will soon resemble administrations past.

  • modi43

    Joe,

    The settlements are NOT illegal. There was never a sovereign country called Palestine that was governed by Palestinians. As you well know, the land has always been disputed and still is.

    UN Resolution 181 specifically talks about Israel giving back “territories,” as opposed to “all of the territories.” Israeli dove Abba Eban called the ’67 borders “Auschwitz borders,” because those borders leave Israel with a 12-mile-wide waist, making it impossible to defend the country.

    The Palestinians have agreed in talks to land swaps, because it is obvious that Israel will need to keep some of the settlements. Nothing “holy” happened in ’67, and the lines that were produced aren’t holy. Pre-67, Egypt and Jordan were controlling Gaza and the West Bank, respectively, and they had zero intention of ever giving that land to the Palestinians. Why didn’t a Palestinian state form during the 19 years when it was Arab-controlled land?

    Here was my favorite line: “There may be no peace for Israel, in any case; there will always be implacable Arab terrorists. But a coherent and prosperous Palestine certainly increases the odds..”

    So Israel can endanger itself by more withdrawals and risk another mass murder of Jews, and then MAYBE there will be peace. BRILLIANT, Joe, brilliant. Def. written from the perspective of someone whose own children are not at risk…

  • joaquimaugustoleal

    I love Charles Krauthammer because he makes this radical leftist Klein mad!

  • modi43

    Editorial meeting at Time:

    “We need to find a columnist who will obsessively air out our hatred of Israel. I know! Let’s find a Jewish guy. That way, when he writes an obsessive amount of articles about Israel, as opposed to writing about the genocides in Darfur or Sri Lanka, for instance, no one can ever accuse us of being anti-Semites!”

    (Insert the sound of evil laughter).

  • modi43

    Neorationalist86 wrote, “This is simply not true. Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and to an extent Syria have all made their peace (formal or informal) with Israel.”

    Um, what?

    Hezbollah, a crazy terrorist group whose name means “Party of God,” is about to win the Lebanese election. This is the same group who somewhat recently struck across Israel’s border to kidnap (and kill) three Israeli soldiers. This sparked a mini-war. You call that peace? Syria has no peace with Israel, and was recently building an illegal nuclear arms facility that Israel struck.

    “Fatah has not carried out any terrorist attacks in decades…”

    Wrong. Barghoutti is in jail for planning terror attacks.

    Please do some research…

  • modi43

    Sutter303 wrote, “The Israelis cannot have their cake and eat it too, they can’t force their enemies to stop fighting them without giving some concessions.”

    Really? Why can’t the Arabs be the ones who can’t have their cake and eat it, too? Why can’t the Arabs not expect Israel to stop fighting unless THEY make some concessions? Your biases are showing, Sutter!

  • modi43

    Somepeoplelikeit wrote, “Sorry for the long George Washington quote, but I think of this every time I think of Israel. They should be our friend and ally yes, but too much favor is not healthy for us, them or the region.”

    Funny how people such as yourself always claim the U.S. is too close to Israel. I guess you have no idea regarding the extent the U.S. is in bed with the oil-producing Arab countries. Your buddy Michael Moore showed just how much the Saudis control America in Fahrenheit 9/11. There is a reason Jonathan Pollard is still in jail, the U.S. embassy in Israel isn’t in Jerusalem, Obama is acting tough with Netanyahu, etc., and it ain’t Israeli influence…

  • neorationalist86

    modi…

    “Hezbollah, a crazy terrorist group whose name means “Party of God,” is about to win the Lebanese election,” is that an argument? Oh no! They mentioned God, they must be extremists!!!! The fact remains that Hezbollah was born out of an illegal and brutal 18 year occupation of Lebanon by Israel. Do some research. They have done what the Lebanese government had been unable to do, and that is protect Lebanon.
    .
    “This is the same group who somewhat recently struck across Israel’s border to kidnap (and kill) three Israeli soldiers. This sparked a mini-war.” Hate to break it to you, but soldiers die in war. It is their job. People (although not necessarily you) continuously equate attacking Israeli soldiers with terrorism, which is patently false, it is guerrilla warfare. Furthermore, I would not consider this 3 week malicious bombardment of the whole of Lebanon as a mini-war. 1300 dead Lebanese. 43 dead Isaelis. Not to mention that Hezbollah sparked the war, yet Israel bombed mercilessly across Lebanon, including government buildings, military barracks, and UN outposts.

  • 53_3

    It’s noteworthy that modi43 avoided referring to my post, Joe.
    .
    I point out to you and others again that whether they are or are not legal is really only relevant to the supranational scene. For the average individual, please refer to my post at 10:14 AM.
    .
    People like modi43 thrive in the gap between the supranational legality issue and the reality on the ground.
    .
    As long as the “settlement” issue is perceived only along these lines is there an opening to portray them as something more a political item to be traded in negotiations rather than a moral issue in which the perpetrators of “settlement” activity are violating human rights on a wholesale basis.
    .
    In other words, there is nothing to be exchanged, no “compromise” to be made, or any “concessions” to surrender as they have no legitimacy even outside the issue of supranational “legality”.

  • 53_3

    In summary:
    .
    You do not steal* the homes or the land of others regardless of whether there was a state in existence there or not, or even whether an occupation has taken place or not.
    .
    *This is a legitimate description of the situation. Religious arguments aside. The land was simply taken, by these following means:
    .
    1. Forced “sale”. Frequently the outcome of zoning and/or permit laws being used to prevent the land from being used by the current owner. The current owner, without options, can then be coerced into a sale to give it some sort of legitimacy. A frequent tactic in East Jerusalem.
    2. Declaration of “Security Zones”, allowing the land to be confiscated by the military and then let for purchase by “settlers”. This is the primary means by which individual illegal “settlements” grow.
    3. Squatting and terrorization. This is how “settlements” start in the West Bank. Usually, after remaining for a period of time on Palestinian land, the military, in order to protect the squatters, declare a military security zone, after which the “settlement” is free to grow.
    4. Demolitions. Again, using zoning laws and permitting laws, an order to demolish is issued. This is most frequent in the Jerusalem area.
    5. Assassination. Rarely used anymore, but does happen from time to time.

  • neorationalist86

    And if you, Modi, do not recognize the ‘special’ relationship between Israel and US, than I do not what what can be said to you on this matter. You have amazingly naive.
    .
    -Since 1976, Israel is the single largest recipient of US economic and military aid
    -This aid is not tied to specific project and stipulations as it is with all other US aid recipients (military information has continuously been passed on to nations such as China, Russia, and Iraq despite US insistence that Israel respect our sensitive materials)
    -Over $3billion direct aid yearly, 1/5th of America’s foreign aid budget
    -Israel has access to sensitive US intelligence that we continue to deny to our NATO allies
    -While you mention Jonathan Pollard (an American), you fail to account for the hundreds of Israeli spies who have been captured in the US spying, attempting acts of espionage, and carrying out ‘false flag’ operations in the US who have simply been returned to Israel rather than charged
    -the US continues to take positions that are in the interest of Israel, yet Israel has not once been a strategic asset to the US, in fact the closeness of our relationship is in and of itself a source of conflict with the Muslim world.
    -

    I implore you to read “The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy.” While you may not accept everything the article contends, there are some undeniable facts that you should investigate yourself. The link is http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf

  • nwachai

    The U.S. and Europe,l and their media, are complicit in the suffering of the Palestinians. They flood Israel with high tech weapons that are then used to kill innocent Palestinians. When a single Israel is killed, it’s big news; when Israel kills twenty Palestinians, it’s not news; the issue is tucked into the inside pages.

    I don’t know how the folks who blindly support Israel would feel if a stranger storms into their homes and demand they leave. As if that is not enough humiliation, they demand total loyalty, which include no attempt to reclaim the grabbed property. Isn’t this exactly what the Israelis did? They killed and expelled Palestinians to form what is now the State of Israel. And to make the matters worse, they went ahead to expropriate more land frustrating the formation of a Palestinian state. The U.S and Europe have been abetting the criminal activities of the Israelis for many decades. I loud President Obama for his bold move to try to correct the injustices of the past four decades. But it’ll be interesting to see is Israeli protectors in the U.S. Congress will let him achieve his goals.

    Palestinians deserve respect and a county of their own.

  • uhhd

    Mr. Klein,

    Like the West Bank is riddled with settlements, Israel proper is riddled with Arab cities. Prior to Lieberman, I’ve never heard a mainstream Israeli politician make the argument that a peace agreement should be contingent on kicking Israeli Arabs out. Even Lieberman would not evacuate Arabs but would make land with high Arab population part of the future Palestinian state rather than the Israel.

    Dismantling settlements and evacuating Jewish civilians from their land is inherently a racist idea. It is saying that all of the future Palestinian state should be Judenrein (“free of Jews” as the Germans said it).

    You also don’t mention the Israelis’ forcible eviction of 8000 settlers from Gaza in a unilateral effort to end the “occupation.” This was not met with an open hand for peace but rather with Hamas terrorists at the borders shooting daily rockets into Israeli cities.

    Let’s be clear. The settlement issue is a racist, RED HERRING issue. Dismantling them will do no more to further peace than offering 97% of the territories to Yasser Arafat did in Camp David. In fact, history shows us that in the Middle East, these acts are met with further aggression and violence.

  • http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com E.D. Kain

    Well said, Joe. I thought this was one of Krauthammer’s more incoherent and ridiculous pieces, and your response was spot-on. Expect this “natural growth” talking point to keep rearing its ugly head in the coming weeks.

  • dalybean

    Robert Wexler gave an interview to Greg Sargent at the Washington Post yesterday where he said the US would no longer tacitly support Israeli military actions. Then he called later to take it back. I wonder what that’s all about?

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    [...] remarkable talk about China’s faults in not laying bare its dark deeds, blogged below). Joe Klein describes an example from the reliably extreme Charles Krauthammer, a columnist for the Washington Post: Charles [...]

  • pafro

    If I am reading the right-wing argument correctly, they are freaking out because the Israeli nationals may have to move to Israel. Is there something I am missing?

  • mcaffery

    Israel doesn’t have a long term viability. Demographics will doom it, at least in terms of its “Jewish state” identity. Palestinians and Arabs around Israel continue to outpace Israeli Jews in terms of population growth. This shows no signs of slowing down or changing in the future.

    Israel’s long term options are to continue to shrink their borders, emphasizing on their “Jewishness”, become an apartheid state, a la South Africa, or give up this sense of “Jewishness” that has always defined it.

    In the long term, I expect Israel will have a very hard time coming to grips with the real existential dilemna it’s faced with, that of a growing Arab and Muslim population, all around it, that has seen Israel only in negative terms.

    A century from now, Israel, as we think of it now, will no longer exist.

  • dalybean

    The IDF killed another Palestinian protester at Naalin today while he was trying to help an injured person. Who won’t Israel let the international authorities investigate any of these incidents? How long is America going to sit and say nothing while Israel reserves for herself alone the ability to abrogate any application of international law whatsoever?

  • dalybean

    I wish that Joe had not said that the Jerusalem settlements will be incorporated in the final status because I think it obscures the present point and it implies that Joe supports depriving the Palestinians of Jerusalem as their capitol city as well. By allowing the natural growth loophole in Jerusalem you still have the property confiscations, demolitions, and evictions of the Palestinians, all of which is just as illegal as the West Bank. And it just goes on and on–oh, we need to put up schools, hospitals, places of worship, etc. for our natural growth–all of which was illegal ab initio. Further, a natural growth exception, adds a veneer of legality to the original illegal enterprise. So we do need a freeze now.
    .
    I get the feeling that Joe would rather not have to deal with this ugly aspect of Israel at all and so he is shading his commentary, much like Jeffrey Goldberg does, to say, sort of, well, natural growth might be a little bit OK in Jerusalem or natural growth is OK on the confiscated territory inside the separation wall. No, it is not OK. And the problems in Jerusalem are rampant as it is Netanyahu’s signature position that he is taking all of Jerusalem and they are putting up that huge hotel in Jerusalem right now on confiscated Palestinian land. The Palestinians need Jerusalem as their capitol city in order to have a viable state. If Joe Klein is for the two-state solution, he needs to fully, 100% declaim any sort of natural growth exception on principle and not merely say that he is favor of fewer exceptions than Krauthammer. I’m sorry, but we need to get this straight.

  • brettfreeman

    Let’s step back from all these arguments and ask a more fundamental question. Why does the presence of Jews in Palestinian territory justify violence? Does the presence of Arabs and Muslims in undisputed Israeli territory justify violence against them? Nobody ever talks about making Israel Arab-free. So why is it legitimate to make the West Bank Judenrein? The last time this was acceptable was during Nazi Germany.

  • themagicdog

    I give Obama credit for trying to move U.S. policy back toward what it once was, and should be: that of an even-handed, honest broker, rather than a partisan for Israel.

    The reality is that the Israel-Arab conflict is a tribal religious war of no fundamental interest or relevance to the United States as a country or a people. A small percentage of our population (1.5%) is Jewish, and has an outsized influence on this policy, and it is long overdue for that to be scaled back.

    Israel has a strong army and nuclear weapons. It can, and should, take care of itself. The United States has an interest in trading with everyone on the planet, and in nuclear non-proliferation, and in stability in general. But we do not have an interest in enforcing ancient Jewish mythological land claims on the grounds that the Germans killed one-third of the world’s Jews in the 1940s.

    Ultimately, it’s going to be up to Israel and the Palestinians. Obama is right to tell the Arabs that Israel is there to stay, but Israel needs to understand that “fences” won’t protect them, and neither will nukes or their military or the United States. Not over the long run. Over time, the only thing that will protect Israel is peace.

    They’d better get cracking on it, because time is running out.

  • neorationalist86

    Uhhd and brettfreemen…

    There is a quintessential difference between Arab towns within Israel and Israeli settlements in the West Bank.
    .
    The Arab communities within Israel have been there for generations. The Arabs within Israel are those whose families have remained there throughout the half a century conflict or you have legally immigrated to Israel. The Jewish settlements, on the other hand, are Israeli proxies. They have been built by the Israeli government in Palestinian lands. We are not talking about a Jewish family immigrating to the West Bank, buying a home, and living there peacefully. We are talking about whole communities built by the Israeli government in Palestinian territory, linked together with highway systems that only Jews may utilize, again with Palestinian territory, and finally protected by the IDF itself operating within Palestinian territory.
    .
    The only way you could equate Israeli settlements with Arab towns in Israel is if the Arab communities has been built by Hamas, after bulldozing Jewish houses there, then they built highways connecting them, denying Jews the right to access these roads within there own country, and finally having Hamas gunmen patrol the community and surrounding areas frequently killing Israelis who came too close. Since nothing remotely close to this is the case within Israel, then both of your arguments feebly attempting to equate these two false completely flat. It is baseless and not based in any shred of reality.

  • dalybean

    brettfreeman:

    Under the Geneva Conventions, it is illegal to transfer your own civilian population into occupied territory. It is actually a war crime. When propagandists attempt to recharacterize this war crime as some sort offense against the Jews reminiscent of the Holocaust, the world gets offended. That is exactly what Krauthammer did as well. He attempted to recharacterize a prohibition against continuing illegal occupation as some sort of forced sterilization or geriatricide. It might amuse you to engage in these games, but the rest of us find it dishonest and offensive.

  • uhhd

    @newrationalist86

    Your justification for having Arabs in Israel but no Jewish settlements is pure racism.

    You say: You are going to tell me that Jews have not been in JUDEA (aka the West Bank) for generations (note: thousands of years)? That is pure nonsense revisionism.

    You say:
    In fact, thats exactly what we are talking about. Jewish settlers aren’t living to destroy Palestinians. They have no charter like Hamas which calls for the killing of Arabs. They choose to live in Judea because they believe that land should have a Jewish presence.
    Whether the final peace dealings between the PA and Israel will include those areas in Israel proper has yet to be seen, but no one has any right to demand unilateral concessions from Israel to remove civilians forcibly while daily violence against Israel continues by the Palestinians.

    Furthermore, Israeli settlements are protected by soldiers because Palestinian maniacs daily attack these people with suicide bombers and snipers. The same does not happen to Israeli Arab towns. In fact Israeli Arabs have previously committed suicide attacks against Israel, something that can only be explained by hatred of Jews rather than a reaction to oppression.

    Also, you talk about Palestinian territory as if there has been some final peace deal and a Palestinian state established. None of this has happened. Palestinian leaders (so far only Yasser Arafat and Abbas since the PA is a dictatorship) time and time again reject land for peace offers made by Israeli leaders from the left AND from the right.

    When the Palestinians finally have a moderate leader who will end the incitement to violence and sit down to talk about final negotiations than the Palestinians will be able to do what they want with “their” land, including making it racist and Jew-Free as you seem to think is appropriate.

  • pintortwo

    Per: “Syria has no peace with Israel, and was recently building an illegal nuclear arms facility that Israel struck.” -Mondi43 @ 12:09
    .
    That claim is questionable, at best. According to former UN chief weapons inspector in Iraq and intelligence officer for the US Marines, Scott Ritter:
    .
    .
    (W)e have to be concerned about the evidence. We have interior photographs and exterior shots and nothing that links the two. And so, on the surface, I would say that if you’re bringing this evidence to a court of law… you would have trouble having anybody say yes, this is definitive evidence that links the allegations to this specific site in question.
    .
    But let’s just assume for a second that the data is in fact accurate. I have to take exception with the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff when he says that the alleged activities are against international conventions. Actually, they’re not. If Syria had in fact been constructing the reactor they’ve been accused of, they were in total conformity with international law. The nonproliferation treaty, Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, of which Syria is a signatory, requires that facilities be declared to the IAEA only when nuclear materials are to be introduced to these facilities, that a facility under construction is not a declarable item. And so, it’s absurd to sit there and say that just because Syria and North Korea were pouring concrete that they are somehow breaking the law.
    .
    And this notion that the reactor was on the verge of becoming operational, again, is absurd. You know, there would have to be literally thousands of pounds of pure graphite that would have to be introduced to this facility, and there’s no evidence in the destruction. You know, there were a number of reporters who went to the site after it was blown up. If it had been bombed and there was graphite introduced, you would have a signature all over the area of destroyed graphite blocks. There would be graphite lying around, etc. This was not the case.
    .
    I don’t know what was going on at this site. If the images are accurate, it appears that Syria was producing a very, very small research reactor. But it is not a reactor usable in a nuclear weapons program. Syria was not violating the law.
    .

  • dalybean

    uhhd:

    The settlements in the occupied territories are war crimes under the Geneva Conventions. Israel is not allowed to move her civilians into the occupied territories, full stop. There are numerous UN resolutions to this effect. The ICC confirmed this within the past few years.

    It is offensive to recharacterize the war crimes of Israel as a racist offense against the Jews. It is also deeply immoral.

  • uhhd

    The argument is simply this:
    International law is remarkably biased against Israel because Israel chose to become a state and to absorb Jewish refugees from all over the world beginning in 1948. Every Arab country who rants daily about Israel’s existence still refuses to absorb any Palestinian refugee into its country.
    .
    The Arabs denied the UN Partition plan in ’48, had no ambitions of statehood from ’48 – ’67 when the territories were governed by Egypt and Jordan (not Israel), issued the 3 NO’s of Khartom in ’67, and denied countless offers from Israel of land for peace following 1967.
    .
    It is in the interest of Palestinian leaders (note: not the people) to remain stateless because in the long run they can continue their war against the “occupiers” with the international community behind them.
    .
    If the West continues to undermine free, multicultural, democracies in favor of backwards, radical, racist groups like the PA, then we will eventually have to sleep in the bed we’ve made for ourselves.

  • dalybean

    uhhd:

    Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions and is not permitted to avoid their application by claiming that international law is biased.

  • uhhd

    dalybean:
    Please don’t tell me about international law when only one side of a conflict is told to enforce it.
    .
    Daily Hamas shoots rockets into civilian cities Israel with little condemnation by the international community.
    .
    Suicide bombs have been a constant problem in Israeli clubs, pizzerias, malls, and buses for decades.
    .
    You are going to tell me that having Jews live in Judea is immoral and this is the REAL barrier to peace? It’s absolutely nonsense.
    .
    It is easy to talk about the Israeli settlements out of context and merely apply international law to one party in a dispute.

  • neorationalist86

    Uhhd,

    Stop blatantly misrepresenting my views. I never said Jews have no right to live in the West Bank. What I said was the Israeli government has no legal basis for building settlements in territory not its own. the international community, the UN, the Geneva Convention, and conventional wisdom dictate that Israel cannot operate in the West Bank.
    .
    Your characterization of my views is such that if I were to say that the Mexican government has no right to build towns in the US protected by Mexican soldiers, that I thereby am saying that Mexicans have no right to live in the US. This is not my argument by any stretch of the imagination.
    .
    Keep up with your paranoid delusions of anti-Jewish racism, while the rest of us informed citizens discuss the issues as adults.

  • 53_3

    uhhd is yet another inverted individual.
    .
    The “settlements” are new whose infrastructure is built on land using the methods I described above in my post at 12:34. Compounding the fact that they are illegal, is the fact that they are nothing more than theft.
    .
    The Israeli Arabs already lived in the towns, or nearby, before being confined to those locations by the Israelis and are not allowed to live elsewhere in Israel.
    .
    Your use of the Nazi symbolism to make your point smacks of Godwin’s law, uhhd. Not to becoming for any human being to participate in.

  • 53_3

    I would like to see uhhd and the others point out exactly where antisemitic statements were made.
    .
    Point them out, place them inside quotes, and let us see these things!

  • uhhd

    newrationalist86:

    The Palestinians argue settlement growth is a barrier to peace. I’m putting into context that what the Arabs have done to Israel (rockets, bombings targeted at civilians) is far worse than having Jews in territory that is occupied. Israelis have always been partners with an outstretched hand for peace. For once Time should publish articles about how rockets, incitement, and hatred are barriers to peace as opposed to the territories not being free of Jewish people. But doing so would be disingenuous because through four major war and two intifadas, the Israelis have always returned to the negotiation table.

    Further, it’s difficult to see you as an informed adult when you’re the first to bring ad hominim attacks to the comments.

  • uhhd

    53_3:
    This thread isn’t about antisemitism, but I’m making a subtle reference to it because the Palestinians’ major demand in negotiations is having territories free of Jews. Lets analogize that to any country that would say it needs to have it free of any racial group.
    .
    Antisemitism by the Palestinians?
    HAMAS CHARTER:
    “The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him…”
    .
    “The Nazism of the Jews does not skip women and children, it scares everyone. They make war against people’s livelihood, plunder their moneys and threaten their honor … They took advantage of key elements in unfolding events, and accumulated a huge and influential material wealth which they put to the service of implementing their dream ….”
    .
    (Jews) control of the world media (and use their) wealth to stir revolutions … They stood behind the French and the Communist Revolutions.”
    .
    “There was no war that broke out anywhere without their (Jews’) fingerprints on it.”

    HAMAS IN ITS OWN WORDS:
    “Hamas will not change a single word in its covenant” – Mahmoud Zahar, January 25, 2006.

  • uhhd

    53_3:
    I urge you or any curious observer to consult MEMRI for further evidence of antisemitism in the PA. They are a group who simply publishes the media from the Arab countries that is not available to the west.
    http://memri.org/palestinian.html

  • 53_3

    “The Palestinians argue settlement growth is a barrier to peace. I’m putting into context that what the Arabs have done to Israel (rockets, bombings targeted at civilians) is far worse than having Jews in territory that is occupied.”
    .
    Actually that is not true uhhd. The “settlers” take what is not theirs, and they are, in my mind, justifiably attacked. They stole the land they live on, and they are hard-core religious fanatics who believe that “Judea” and “Samara” are theirs for the taking as it was given to them by God.
    .
    That is what you are obfuscating by your strange statements. Their infrastructure has effectively choked off commercially viable traffic on the West Bank.
    .
    On the rockets:
    They are coming from a territory where the Israelis did indeed remove the “settlements”, but they never ended the imprisonment of the 1.4 million people who live there. That is the reason why rocket fire has continued.
    .
    Don’t believe me? Look at any Thematic Mapper scene that has been declassified of Gaza. That is all I need to say as you simply cannot argue with the reality of a remote sensing photo in hand.
    .
    “Israelis have always been partners with an outstretched hand for peace. For once Time should publish articles about how rockets, incitement, and hatred are barriers to peace as opposed to the territories not being free of Jewish people.”
    .
    This is not and has never been true. Israel wants that land, which is why Netanyahu refuses to stop building the “settlements”. If you want to know why, uddh, the Palestinians continue to fight I suggest this:
    .
    Ask a Palestinian! Do NOT attempt to insert your perception of things onto them, and then call them on it. That is pure bullsh!t.
    .
    “But doing so would be disingenuous because through four major war and two intifadas, the Israelis have always returned to the negotiation table.”
    .
    You totally ignore the fact that they only do that to buy time to build “settlements”. The surrounding Arab states have offered a plan. It would be very good idea for Israel to return to the negotiating table in earnest this time!
    .
    “Further, it’s difficult to see you as an informed adult when you’re the first to bring ad hominim attacks to the comments.”
    .
    So you can violate Godwin’s law and we can’t? Is that how this works uddh?

  • 53_3

    uhhd:
    .
    Refer to my comments at 10:14, 12:34 and my previous comments.
    .
    Israel wants to destroy HAMAS, right? Well, that’s a push there, I believe. I would say that Israel is not in too much danger of that. Besides, what war has occurred at any point in history where one side doesn’t want to vanquish the other. Both sides have extremists, and right now, Abbas, who is NOT among them, has absolutely nothing to show for the four years of relative peace on the West Bank.
    .
    Bad move on Israel’s part, because it tells the Palestinians there is no alternative but to fight.
    .
    Your arguments for “settlements” are frankly, weird and inconsistent, and ignore several obvious facts.
    .
    You are clearly trying to falsify and obfuscate the situation. There is no parallel between the presence of Arabs in Israel and the “settlements”.
    .
    The hypocrisy here is that if government forces or anyone else took your land, you would fight.

  • http://www.taylormarsh.com/2009/06/05/obamas-support-for-israel-missed-by-aipac-crowd/ Obama’s Support for Israel Missed by AIPAC Crowd | TaylorMarsh.com

    [...] just goes to show that tough love is hard to take. Even when the policy being instituted behind it will do our long standing allies in Israel a lot [...]

  • uhhd

    You’re ignoring what I’ve written. Again, there is no final settlement of a Palestinian state because the Arabs rejected every offer ever made to them. Your argument of imprisonment is Gaza is nonsense. Any country would close borders to a hostile neighbor and international law is on Israel’s side in this case. They have every right to close the border once the military has been removed. Further, Rafah is totally controlled by Egypt and closed off as well, but you would never criticize an Arab country for imprisoning 1.4 million people. Twice, Hamas blew up the border to Egypt so that they would be able to cross into Egypt and resupply themselves. Israel was not part of that equation. Additionally, you make statements about “hard-core religious fanatic” settlers yet tell me to talk to Palestinians about their grievances. In fact, I’ve spoken to MANY Palestinians but something tells me you’ve never met a settler before. It is Hamas in fact that believes that Israel should be destroyed based on Allah’s word and it is clear because it is written in their charter. Hamas is in CONTROL of the Palestinian people. The Jewish settlers may believe that they have a right to Judea and Samaria but they are not running the country. Case in point, Israel evacuated 8000 innocent civilian settlers in 2005 unilaterally as an effort to end occupation and address the grievances of the Arabs. As stated before, this courageous effort was followed by thousands of rocket attacks at Israeli civilians.

  • uhhd

    You are absolutely wrong when saying that Israel wanting to destroy Hamas equates to Hamas wanting to destroy Israel. As evidenced by its own words, Hamas wants to kill the Jews and destroy the country of Israel. Israel destroying Hamas means that it would destroy a terrorist organization WITHIN the Palestinians, not the Palestinians themselves or their aspiration for a state. If Israel wanted to destroy the Palestinians they easily would have with superior military power, but they have absolutely no desire to do so. In fact, they have put ground troops in harms way in most operations in order to minimize civilian deaths. You cannot misrepresent Israeli intentions in this way. You can argue policy about settlements but do not say that Israel wishes to destroy the Palestinians. It is patently false. Hamas’s charter on the other hand speaks for itself. Please read it.

  • dalybean

    Uhdd:

    Israel cannot escape its obligations under the Geneva Conventions that make it a war crime to transfer your citizens into occupied territory by claiming that the population of the occupied territories deserve it because they are terrorists.

    I would add that Israel is not going to escape its obligations under the Geneva Conventions that make it a war crime to transfer your citizens into occupied territory by starting any more wars either.

    The US is no longer going to permit Israel’s occupation project to create Eretz Yisrael outside of the 1967 borders to continue. No more crying and shooting. No more screaming, “Look over there!” No more screaming, “you can’t criticize us, it’s anti-semitic!” No more screaming, “we have to attack you and kill you to avoid another holocaust and because you’re Amalek!” No more screaming, “the rules don’t apply to us, we’re the chosen ones and have special rights that no one else has!” The game is up. It’s all over but the counting now.

  • 53_3

    I ignored nothing you wrote.
    .
    One, you deny that imprisonment is taking place in Gaza then justify it. Collective punishment is in violation of the Geneva Convention and the fact that there are not 1.4 million HAMAS members in Gaza says it all…
    .
    Egypts’ handling of the situation is entirely different than Israel’s, and even they have opened their borders from time to time – against Israeli wishes.
    .
    Next, the “settlements” are both illegal and immoral, and remain at the center of the Palestinian issues relating to peace. Like I said, I do not blame them for fighting. I would gut shoot someone who tried to take my home and let the buzzards pick their guts. I’m surprised at Abbas’s restraint…
    .
    “The Jewish settlers may believe that they have a right to Judea and Samaria but they are not running the country. Case in point, Israel evacuated 8000 innocent civilian settlers in 2005 unilaterally as an effort to end occupation and address the grievances of the Arabs.”
    .
    Again, the borders remained choked off, and 8,000 is not even a dent on the 500,000 that neorationalist86 referred to. It was a token without value.
    .
    Again, you
    are lying about the situation.

  • dalybean

    Uhdd:
    .
    Israel cannot escape its obligations under the Geneva Conventions that make it a war crime to transfer your citizens into occupied territory by claiming that the population of the occupied territories deserve it because they are terrorists.
    .
    I would add that Israel is not going to escape its obligations under the Geneva Conventions that make it a war crime to transfer your citizens into occupied territory by starting any more wars either.
    .
    The US is no longer going to permit Israel’s occupation project to create Eretz Yisrael outside of the 1967 borders to continue. No more crying and shooting. No more screaming, “Look over there!” No more screaming, “you can’t criticize us, it’s anti-semitic!” No more screaming, “we have to attack you and kill you to avoid another Holocaust and because you’re Amalek!” No more screaming, “the rules don’t apply to us, we’re the chosen ones and have special rights that no one else has!” The game is up. It’s over.

  • 53_3

    “If Israel wanted to destroy the Palestinians they easily would have with superior military power, but they have absolutely no desire to do so.”
    .
    Why ethnically cleanse by killing when you can do it with “settlements”. This is an easy one. Not hard to see at all, uddh.
    .
    Again, you have accused us of antisemitism, and I demand you show where.

  • 53_3

    Oh, and uddh:
    .
    I want you to address my comments at 10:14 and 12:34!

  • 53_3

    uddh:
    .
    Address my comments of 10:14 and 12:34!

  • uhhd

    Apparently according to you, any unilateral act made by Israel is “not even a dent.” I’d love to the PA crack down on Hamas terrorists in Gaza and then I would say it is not even a dent because Islamic Jihad is still operating in the West Bank.
    .
    “Collective punishment” is a platitude and an argument made when none is available. Closing the borders is a right under international law. Egypt is just as quick to close the borders for its own security as it has a right to do so. Shooting rockets into Israel at civilians is also collective punishment. Suicide bombs are also collective punishment. Hamas’ militancy brings about these security measures. No one is arguing this point. Both America and the EU list Hamas as a terrorist organization.

  • neorationalist86

    Uhhd-

    “I’m putting into context that what the Arabs have done to Israel (rockets, bombings targeted at civilians) is far worse than having Jews in territory that is occupied”
    You are absolutely correct. Suicide bombings are more morally reprehensible than illegal settlements. However, when you factor in Israel’s other transgressions, this skews hard towards Israeli culpability. Take, for example, illegal annexation of Golan Heights, Sheba’a Farms, Jerusalem, etc, plus oppressive blockades of Gaza, targeted assassinations, disproportionate use of force against civilian populations, espionage against US and Europe, illegal detentions, etc, etc. Once you factor in these elements, than illegal settlements is a portion of a larger trend of Israeli opposition to peace. What Hamas does in retaliation is not justified, but it is understandable.
    .
    “Further, it’s difficult to see you as an informed adult when you’re the first to bring ad hominim attacks to the comments.”
    Your implications that our criticism of Israel is tantamount to Nazism and anti-Jewish bigotry was the first instance of ad hominem attacks, to be accurate. You started down that path my friend.

  • dalybean

    The Israel project has worn out our patience and abused our good nature. It’s time for Israel to start following the rules or face pariah status.

  • uhhd

    dalybean: Who are you to talk about the Israeli project? Israel has done more for the world in 50 years than all the Arab countries combined.
    .
    neorationalist86: No. It is absolutely not understandable to attack and TARGET civilians with suicide bombs and rockets.
    .
    The Sheba Farms, Golan, etc were captured in a defensive war when 9 Arab countries attacked Israel in 1967.
    .
    Disproportionate force? Another platitude with no basis in international law. Disproportionate force means that Israel must use enough force to attack its military targets and not more which is precisely what it does.
    .
    Yes one-sided criticism of Israel is tantamount to bigotry because today it is not acceptable to attack Jewish people anymore. Today it is acceptable to attack Jewish nationalism. The Jews have a right to a nation just the Arabs have a right to 23 nations. If criticize Israel without regards to the terrorist actions of those on its borders and only apply int’l law to one party, the Jews, then that is tantamount to bigotry although on a “higher” level than simply calling for death to the Jews.
    .
    Again, neorationalist, look at the big picture. Israel is not a flawless country. Neither is America. But, they are the embodiment of freedom and democracy in the world. Just because they have committed acts that were wrong, does not mean that we should take the side of their enemies in every argument. I believe you certainly would not want Hamas running things in the Middle East as they guarantee no human rights, have extrajudicial executions, subjugate women, and incite violence against political enemies, and torture routinely (and I do not mean waterboarding).

  • dalybean

    Uhdd’s last post covers the full panoply of Israeli propaganda to divert attention from the truth, which the Hasbara Buster summarizes as follows:
    .
    We rock! They suck! You suck! Everything sucks! We rock!
    .
    Yawn. We’re onto you. Le jeux sont faits.

  • neorationalist86

    No one is attacking the right of Israel to exist. No one is attacking the notion of Jewish nationalism. We are attacking Israeli excess in all that does.
    .
    “Disproportionate force means that Israel must use enough force to attack its military targets and not more which is precisely what it does.” Tell me, were the 1300 killed Lebanese in 2006 not disproportionate to the 43 Israelis? Did Israel achieve any military objectives? No. So if 1300 dead, over half civilian without even achieving any military gains, than what are we to expect from an Israeli campaign that actually accomplishes its goals?
    .
    “The Jews have a right to a nation just the Arabs have a right to 23 nations.” The Arabs are not one homogeneous people. That is what you Israelis and blindly pro-Israel activists always suggest, which ironically is actually a racist assumption. There are great pronounced difference between Syrians, for example, and Egyptians. Different customs, different laws, different dialects, and even different physical features. I suppose the Europeans collectively have over 30 countries, so there is no need for any specific one to exist.
    .
    “If criticize Israel without regards to the terrorist actions of those on its borders and only apply int’l law to one party, the Jews, then that is tantamount to bigotry although on a “higher” level than simply calling for death to the Jews.” Who isn’t holding Hamas, for example, accountable? Do you hear yourself? They are categorized as a terrorist organization by all of Europe, US, and Canada. They have been cut off from the world, isolated from negotiations, and rhetorically slammed at every corner. What utter paranoia you are living in if you think the world has been harsher to Israel than Hamas. Israel is the single largest recipient of aid in the world. Israel has never been economically sanctioned, never had embargoes enacted against it, or had any military operations aimed at it by the western world. It is the receiver of sensitive intelligence by US and UK that they do not even share with their NATO allies. Israel, in return, has done nothing strategically beneficial to Europe or US. In fact, it has done quite the opposite. It has conducted major espionage campaigns against its own allies, obtaining sensitive information without a reprimand. It has conducted ‘false flag’ operations and pinned these on Arab extremist to bolster its own support against the Arabs (see the Lavon Affair; ‘art student’ spyring in US; and Mossad posing as al-Qaeda in India). If you think the world is unfair to Israel you simply not paying attention to reality.

  • stanwright

    While Krauthamer was ranting about corruption in Palestine, has he noticed that in recent years every Israeli PM to leave office has done so under the cloud of a serious corruption investigation?

  • 53_3

    Sorry, you guys, I couldn’t stay for his reposte, but I see he just isn’t able to handle truth.
    .
    I support Israel’s right to exist, but as a memeber of nations who practice what they preach.
    .
    “But, they are the embodiment of freedom and democracy in the world.”
    .
    uhhd, this is also not true and believe me, you are trying to argue, and failing on all fronts, with someone who has seen both Civil Rights in action here in the US and the deterioration of Israel’s standing in the rest of the world.
    .
    I am totally unswayed by your charges of antisemitism. It is merely an attempt to make Godwin’s law only applicable to Gentiles, and those of the Jewish faith who disagree with you.
    .
    I can tell a racist when I see one, an you are as foul as anyone I’ve seen. If you think I don’t know what I’m talking about, you are entirely mistaken and uddh:
    .
    You conveniently never addressed my comments at 10:14 and 12:34.
    .
    As for Egypt, their border policies were prescribed by the agreement they had with Israel during the dismantling of the “settlements”.
    .
    You are a liar and a racist, and for all I care, you can shovel coal in hell next to Avigdor Lieberman. The days when commenters feared the charges of antisemitism for disagreeing with the Israeli government are over!

  • 53_3

    Oh, btw, uddh, one last comment before I leave this dead thread:
    .
    I could provide copious links regarding everything said by me, and I’m sure dailybean, neorationalst86 and others could do the same. However, just to assuage any doubts about the veracity of my comments at 10:14 and 12:34 yesterday:
    google ‘Israeli settlement tactics’
    google ‘Israeli settlers’
    google ‘Religion Israeli settlers’
    .
    Also google virtually any pro-Israeli site including some of the government sites and read, in their own words what they perceive as the endgame for “Judea and Samara”.
    .
    Their own words, uddh. You lose…

  • tilliswynette

    For as long as I can remember, the American media has been teaching us that Israel is a miracle in the desert. What they failed to mention all these years, was that American citizens paid for that miracle by transferring Israel hundred of billions of dollars in money and arms. However, now that the internet has opened up the Middle Eastern debate to citizens critical of Israeli governments like that of Netanyahu and Lieberman, even the establishment media is allowing journalists, such as Joe Klein to challenge the received wisdom of the last 60 years.

  • neorationalist86

    tilliswynette,

    While you are correct in your observation that the anonymity of the internet has opened the flood-gates to rational and informed debate about the misconceptions of the relationship with Israel being in the national interest of the United States, the unopposed and pervasive influence of AIPAC still silences the ability of public debate, notably emphasized within the United States Congress.
    .
    Support the Council for the National Interest
    http://www.cnionline.org/

  • neorationalist86

    On June 1, 2009 the United States Congress delivered a letter to President Obama signed by 328 Congressmen. The letter had 4 main principles:
    1) That the US play a role in Arab-Israeli peace, but ultimately leave the negotiations and details to the involved parties
    2) The need to work ‘closely with our democratic ally Israel, who will be taking the greatest risk in any peace agreement,’ as the United States ‘MUST be a devoted friend of Israel’
    3) Continued insistence on Palestinian cessation of hostilities, dismantling of armed militant groups, and proper institutions of governing PRIOR to any pursued peace. NO STATEMENTS WERE ISSUED LINKING ANY ISRAELI STIPULATIONS TO PEACE, SUCH AS REMOVING ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS, WITHDRAWING FROM ILLEGALLY OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES, ETC ETC
    4) Insistence that a greater role be taken up by Arab states in peace agreements
    .
    This letter, which bore the AIPAC letterhead as circulated through Congress, is a blatant example of one-sided foreign policy direction. This letter, nearly identical to the one issued to President Bush in 2002, marks the end of Obama’s short lived attempts to reign in an expansionist Israel. This letter ignores any possibility of Israeli culpability in the conflict. This letter demonstrates that overwhelming majority of the United States Congress act as agents of a foreign government, Israel, and reject any notion of a Middle East policy that considers what is in the interests of the United States. This letter is yet another piece of over 60 years of Israeli propaganda and subversion of American interests in the pursuit of their own Middle East dominance.
    .
    Shame on the 328 Congressmen who singed this letter. Shame on the traitorous AIPAC lobby. Shame on America for allowing the brunt of our Middle East policy to be crafted by those loyal not to the US, but to Israel. Shame. Shame. Shame.
    .
    http://www.aipac.org/Publications/SourceMaterialsCongressionalAction/Cantor-Hoyer_Israel_Letter_May2009_FINAL.pdf

  • obamaforlife

    As a committed Christian and an unequivocal believer in the Bible as the inerrant and infallible Word of God, I believe that Jews, as the bible defines them (the biological descendents of Jacob) are the “chosen” people of God on this earth. God gave, by an eternal blood covenant and in perpetuity, to Abraham, through the linage of Jacob, the entire geographical region of what we now refer to as the “Holy Land”. Since God cannot lie and does not renege on His covenants with men, that claim of ownership of the land of Israel and the holy city of Jerusalem by the Jewish people still stands, and will be inviolate forever.

    The ancient nation of Israel enjoyed the favor of God, but also incurred His wrath and judgment by their evil doings. And when, in judgment for their many sins and continued disobedience of His laws, God destroyed the nation of Israel and purged the land of its Jewish inhabitants, they were scattered throughout the globe; and for millennia they suffered (deservedly so) unimaginable and unspeakable horrors at the hands of various oppressors. The Lord, in His infinite mercy, had warned them as a nation by the mouths of His Prophets that, without repentance and a return to righteousness, this painful Diaspora would be their fate; but they continued in their rebellion against Him in spite of His many attempts to turn them away from their impending disaster.

    Finally, God’s prophetic – but unheeded – warnings regarding the consequences of their sinful stubbornness came to fruition, and the nation was ultimately destroyed and Jews were vomited out of their Covenant Land. However, if you believe the Bible as all true Christians do, this tragedy did not end their place in God’s universal plan. Nor did it change God’s mind regarding His covenant with Abraham and His gift of the land to Jacob’s children as long as the earth stands. For, although they were driven out of their homeland as punishment for their idolatry and unrighteousness, God never revoked His covenant with them regarding their ownership of it, and promised that He would one day reestablish the nation of Israel and repopulate the Holy Land with its rightful inhabitants.

    We have seen this prophecy fulfilled in our very lifetime with the creation of the modern State of Israel and the repatriation of Jews from all over the planet back into their “Land of Promise”. Their amazing success in redeveloping the dry, desert-like hills of Palestine into a flourishing “Garden of Eden” that supplies the world with much of its fruit is nothing less than gloriously miraculous. God’s divine hand of protection is evident in their defense as they have repelled time-and-time again (against overwhelming and undefeatable odds) the invading armies of their Arab enemies. Who in their right and rational mind could deny that the phenomenal renaissance of the Jewish nation could be anything but a providential work of the Holy Spirit?

    Having said that, let me make my position crystal clear regarding the current state of affairs in the Middle-East. While I support and defend the right of existence for the nation of Israel, and believe fervently in the divine mandate for its perpetual ownership and occupation of the Holy Land as the Jew’s ancient and historic home, I do not agree nor do I support the unjust, racist and oppressive policies of its current or previous governments. There is a distinct difference between the two. In similar fashion to those in foreign countries who love and support America, it culture, its freedoms and its people, but hate the policies of certain Presidents who occupy the White House, or whose political party is in the majority at any given time, I abhor and detest the decisions of those who are leading the nation of Israel down a road of insecurity and global isolation, but I greatly love the Jewish people and their divinely created nation.

    However, what the contemporary GOVERNMENTS of Israel are doing to the Palestinian people is an absolute abomination, and is one of the greatest acts of inhumanity and degradation perpetrated against other human beings in modern times. It is boggles the mind that a people, who themselves were the victims of a genocidal holocaust which exterminated millions of their own, would, or even could, so quickly and callously raise their collective hands to commit the same unspeakable horrors against another helpless and defenseless people under their own rulership. They have turned the State of Israel into the Nazi Germany of the Middle-East, committing acts of murder, terror, oppression, injustice and genocide so abhorrent that it makes the apartheid of South Africa look like Jeffersonian Democracy. Its policies violate every standard of human decency, and repudiate God’s own unalterable principles of justice, equity, brotherhood, mercy and compassion for all – which, ironically, are the very reasons their ancient forbearers were destroyed and driven out of their homeland by Him in the first place. It is a classic case of pathological embodiment, where the “oppressed metamorphoses into the oppressor.”

    While I do not advocate the surrendering of any God-given Israeli land for a so-called “Palestinian State”, nor do I believe in the validity of the so-called “two State solution”, I do believe Israel has embarked upon a path of destabilization that will leave the Middle-East, and yes – the entire world, on the brink of utter destruction. There must be found a way to grant freedom, liberty and self-determination to the Palestinians who live in the Covenant Land of Israel without abdicating Israeli sovereignty over that land. Israel must never, ever give up any of the land that God eternally gave to them, and must be able to live in security and safety within their borders. But at the same time, the unjustifiable and unconscionable oppression of the Palestinian people MUST end. There must be a pathway to achieve both objectives, even if it means granting Palestinians some form of Israeli citizenship within the nation of Israel itself, and creating some sort of Palestinian sub-State in that context. Maybe it could be an arrangement similar to the one currently implemented in the US for Native American nations.

    In such a case, Israeli permanence and security as the Jewish State would be guaranteed by the United States and the United Nations, with UN peace keeping forces stationed in the disputed areas. Jewish settlements would be allowed to remain and flourish. Palestinian enclaves would maintain economic and political autonomy and self-governance at the local level, with a central government under the direct authority of, and with limited representation in, the Israeli Knesset and Cabinet. Those who wish to continue to violently reject Israel’s right to exist and its historic and biblical ownership of the land – including current Islamic terrorist groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah – would be vigorously pursued and brought to justice by the appropriate international agencies.

    Further, Jerusalem would be the undivided and undisputed Capital of Israel, but would also serve as Headquarters for the new Palestinian sub-State, as well as be declared as an “International and Ecumenical City” under the ultimate municipal management of the UN (as Israeli Territory, but administered by, and under the control of, the UN or another multi-national authority). All religions would have unfettered access to, and control over their respective holy sites. Palestinian refugees living in Arab countries would be granted citizenship in those countries, and given monetary reparations by Israel for their generations of suffering, and in lieu of the “right of return”. The US and other UN permanent member-nations of the Security Council would financially compensate the Arab countries for their willingness to receive the Palestinians as citizens, and for their recognition of the nation of Israel as the Jewish State with full diplomatic relations……..thus some kind of peaceful accommodation for a violence-torn, bleeding land – at least for the next generation or so.

    This is the only way to maintain biblical and historical purity regarding the Holy Land, achieve security for Israel, and stop the bloody oppression and abuse of the Palestinian people. All other pathways lead to madness.

  • neorationalist86

    “Since God cannot lie and does not renege on His covenants with men, that claim of ownership of the land of Israel and the holy city of Jerusalem by the Jewish people still stands, and will be inviolate forever”
    .
    I sincerely doubt that God’s will extends to the subjugation, oppression, humiliation, eviction and disenfranchisement of another people (the Palestinians). Any claim that the Israelis are entitled to take what they please in the “Holy Land,” violently ignoring the well entrenched inhabitants of those lands over a period of 1300 years is a grossly negligent interpretation of God’s covenant with the Jewish people.

  • neorationalist86

    The moment the Jewish people attempted to take, under the auspices of the gun, lands inhabited by a people who had done them no harm was the moment that any perceived covenant with God was revoked.

  • teramis

    I critiqued Krauthammer’s no-growth argument in a recent blog post of my own which can be viewed here. I wrote that before coming across your own post on the topic. You make excellent points, and I share your irritation at polemic that distorts facts and avoids obvious key issues. I’ll be sure to keep an eye out for your writings in the future.

  • persianadvocate

    Worth 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Words, Swampland readers.

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