In the Arena

Crazy Arabs, Crazy Jews

There’s a fair amount of twitching going on in the Middle East this week in advance of Barack Obama’s address to the Islamic world in Cairo on Thursday. Much of it has to do with the expectation that Obama will put some pressure on the Israelis to stop the expansion of illegal settlements on Palestinian territories. The Netanyahu government is resisting such a step, arguing a technical point: that some of the settlements, especially those around Jerusalem, will remain in Israeli hands after any peace deal, and should be allowed some “natural” expansion. Sorry, but that is an evasion and a bad faith evasion at that. Settlements need to be frozen, no exceptions, right now. Indeed, the need for natural expansion in some of these towns would, theoretically, put pressure on Israel to move with more alacrity toward a peace deal so that people who want to build on extra rooms or extra floors would be able to do so.

The fact is, Israel has to do much more than freeze settlements: it needs to dismantle them, and open up the West Bank roads exclusively used by Jewish settlers to Palestinian use; and tear down the barrier wall in any locale that doesn’t conform to the 1967 green line. It certainly needs to send a clear message to the extremists who are rioting on the West Bank today, in support of their illegal outposts–that this sort of behavior will no longer be tolerated. If Israel is going to demand–rightly–that the Palestinians control their terrorists, Israel is going to have to crack down on its own provocateurs.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians are proving themselves every bit as incapable of statehood as they have in the past, with Fatah and Hamas having battles over the weekend. Although Israel–and, quite possibly, Egypt–would like to proceed with negotiations excluding Hamas, no peace, no Palestianian state, is possible without Hamas participation…and, as I’ve written here in the past, the United States should be moving, informally at first, to talk to Hamas and see if we can mediate between the Palestinian factions in order to move the Israel-Palestinian negotiations in gear.

There is, of course, some fairly predictable bleating going among the winguts and American Likudniks about the “failure” of Obama’s diplomatic initiatives. But they’ve barely started–and they will take time.

Finally, there was some very good news lower down in the Times piece:

In other developments on Sunday, the Israeli cabinet rejected a bill aimed at Israel’s Arab minority that would have required a loyalty oath for citizenship. This means the bill, championed by the Yisrael Beiteinu Party of Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, has little chance of passing in the Israeli Parliament. Lawmakers could still sponsor an independent bill on the issue, but it would not have the government’s backing.

It’s nice to know that there Lieberman remains, despite his participation in the government, an Israeli outlier.

Update: A few weeks ago, Marty Peretz of the New Republic wrote that my position on Israel was held merely to gain access to cocktail parties on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. I’ve had pretty much the same views for 30 years–you could look it up–and I’ve never been particularly popular in those circles (as Marty well knows, since he’s published me about a dozen times over the past 25 years) but it is part of the American Likudnik bully persona to find perjorative rationales for any Jews who dare oppose their extreme and dangerous positions. But no matter: I hold Peretz in higher regard than he does me. I assume he comes by his views honestly. They are prohibitively creepy views: Israel always right, Arabs always subhuman. And today he jumps into the settlement debate with this bit of wisdom:

But the idea of stopping all construction in all settlements means that once again the Israelis will be ceding something in advance and for nothing in return.

Wait a minute. Israel is doing something illegal here. It is taking territory that the rest of the world, without exception, considers Palestinian.  This is like saying that someone who steals your car is entitled to keep it unless you agree to give him something else. The best thing to do when you’re doing something illegal–unless additional thievery is on your mind–is to stop doing it. Period.

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  • sacredh

    JK: Thanks for the post. President Obama is going to have to do more than negotiate. He’s going to have to do some serious arm-twisting. Any contact, even preliminary feelers, with Hamas is going to cause the right wings both here and in Israel to start the “Obama is negotiating with terrorists” drumbeat.

  • FlownOver

    Give ‘em a break, Joe – they’re just trying to keep up with the crazy “Christians” in the U.S.

  • bitterpill8

    Short response: are we ready to be even handed? Do we have the political resolve to do so? Who directs our FP towards Israel: we or Israel? How do we deal with the feckless lot led by Abbass?

  • stuartzechman

    Joe Klein:
    .
    The fact is, Israel has to do much more than freeze settlements: it needs to dismantle them, and open up the West Bank roads exclusively used by Jewish settlers to Palestinian use; and tear down the barrier wall in any locale that doesn’t conform to the 1967 green line.
    .
    Is there anyone other than far-right Likudniks who might consider this relatively benign and obvious point in the slightest way controversial?
    .
    Does the Obama Administration consider this position controversial, Joe Klein? If so, why would that ambivalence be?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    It’s interesting that while Obama’s pre-election rhetoric was for significantly more open government that what his administration is actually willing to provide, his pre-election rhetoric on the Middle East OTOH was significantly less evenhanded than his actual governing style seems to be.

  • bobcn1

    ‘Israel has to do much more than freeze settlements: it needs to dismantle them …’
    .
    I would like to see Obama insist that the settlements be abandoned, but not dismantled. Destroying the buildings is unnecessary and, for the right wing Israelis, the thought that they might be building future homes for Palestinians would make settlement construction a lot less palatable.

  • http://aroundthesphere.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/well-now-thats-settled/ Well, Now That’s Settled « Around The Sphere

    [...] Joe Klein: There’s a fair amount of twitching going on in the Middle East this week in advance of [...]

  • supbeseder

    Joe Klein is an idiot!! And anyone who doubts this is a pot smoking hippie liberal.

  • usaone

    The only thing that is “crazy” is the notion that a Palestenian state will bring peace to the middle east. All this will do is start a demand or war for more territory perpetually by the “Palenstenian state”.

    This certainly won’t solve Iran’s hostility towards Israel and it certainly won’t stop or curb attacks against Israel or its citizens. Israel should hold firm.

  • ficheye

    USAONE and SUPBESEDER: A pot smoking, hippie liberal? I don’t always agree with Joe, but this article is right on. Put down the Budweiser.

    Israel should back off. World opinion is against them. Unless, of course, all you zealots want to unleash Armageddon. It’s Gods plan! I got me a condo in heaven! Israel needs to stop expanding the settlements because it’s not right and it’s the major reason for the conflicts right now. They use most of the water, and now they say they need to expand because of (gulp) population growth. They are idiots who are using the holocaust as a shield. As the years pass my sympathy is being replaced with annoyance at the egocentric policies of the Israeli government. They are actually related to the Palestinians by blood but they are trying to deny it.

  • sqr1

    Joe Klein is an idiot!! And anyone who doubts this is a pot smoking hippie liberal.
    .
    Actually, he’s pretty much right on the mark.
    .
    A correction: Joe Klein is a pot smoking hippie liberal!! And anyone who doubts this is an idiot.

  • usaone

    ficheye-

    I happen to like Budweiser. I also happen to think that no matter how you try to placate the PLO, it won’t work. I’m not for expansion of settlements. I would like to see a PLO state formed with real borders just so I can say I told you so when they start clamoring for more territory, the destruction of Israel, and the return of every inch of land to Arabs/Muslims. If you think there is any other possible result please check yourself into the nearest mental hospital.

  • 53_3

    I do not see the PA as ‘incapable of statehood’ because even Israel has not been able to stop Hamas.
    .
    How, given that fact, he expects the PA and Abbas, severely weakened by not having any results to who for peace since the end of the Intefada on the West Bank, accomplish it?
    .
    With nerf nukes? Rubber hoses?
    .
    Aside from that, Joe is exactly right on and I will take what I can get. The rest is paranoia that the right wing is trying to sell around the world.
    .
    I say, no go, and it is time to force Israel to end the “settlements”.
    .
    I can tell you, without a doubt, that usaone would not hesitate to grab his weapon in defense of his home, should the government knock on his door, telling him to leave.
    .
    Such is usaones’ hypocracy…

  • viciousmaniac

    I’m not for expansion of settlements. I would like to see a PLO state formed with real borders just so I can say I told you so when they start clamoring for more territory.
    .
    No worries then, if the Israelis get their way. The settlements, when they “naturally expand”, will dice up whatever sad Palestinian state exists into isolated chunks. This of course while their cops and armies selectively ignore lawbreakers like these tough guys swiping a home from a 61-year old Palestinian widow. And guys like you would like corporate swill like Buttwiper. Do yourself a favor and support your local brew, your palate will thank you, I’m sure.
    .
    On-topic: Screw Bibi if that’s his attitude. Obama should go ahead and press for the dismantling the ring of Israeli settlements walling off Jerusalem from the world. If Israel is to give him a hard time, why not just apply maximum pressure.

  • spob

    Hmmmmmmm. Didn;t the Palestinians agree not to teach Jew-hatred to the young? That agreement hasn’t been kept. Why should Israel have to honor deals that are being broken?

  • 53_3

    Pretty weak, spob, considering that the Israelis attempted to impose a “loyalty” oath, and themselves distributed hate leaflets while in war.
    .
    Let’s not mention what is being taught in the “settlements”.
    .
    Straight up push, there…

  • 53_3

    Joe:
    .
    Your update tangentially addresses the issues I raised. I thank you for that, and I hope you continue speaking out about this. I think it is important for people to realize that Palestinians, though they are harboring a lot of extremism, are doing so primarily because of this.
    .
    I reiterate the hypocrisy of the right wingers here who ignore the fact that they would not hesitate to grab his weapon in defense of his home, should the government knock on his door, telling him to leave.
    .
    This is the core of my claim against the “complexity” rhetoric, as it is pure bullsh!t.

  • neorationalist86

    To those that would suggest that support of Israel in this country is a partisan issue, you are sadly mistaken. The notion that conservatives support Israel and liberals do not is a fallacy. Support of Israel is an across the aisle endeavor, aggressively pursued by both right and left wingers. I am a staunch Conservative and generally tend to identify myself with the Republican party, yet I do not condone, support, or rationalize unwavering and biased support for Israel. Demanding that Israel cease all illegal activities is in no way a liberal or irrational position to take, i.e…

    -Illegal settlements in Palestinian territory in breach of the 4th Geneva Convention

    -Illegal annexation and occupation of Golan Heights (from Syria), Sheba’a Farms (from Lebanon), and large portions of territory adjacent to Gaza and the West Bank that was under the 1947 UN Partition plan to be Palestinian territories. The occupation of territory through military operations is contrary to international law.

    -The illegal use of banned munitions, such as white phosphorous
    -Assassinations, kidnappings, and illegal detentions
    -Overtly inhumane treatment of the Palestinian people residing in Gaza and W. Bank, such as illegal blockades, denial of access to medical treatment, and interception of humanitarian aid
    -Endless incidents of attacks on UN and other international aid workers, journalists, and activists
    -Not to mention, many incidents aimed at the US (a supposed ally of Israel) such as the bombing of the USS Liberty off the coast of Egypt in 1967 (killing 34 US servicemen)
    To demand that Israel be held to the same legal standards as they demand of their Palestinian counterparts is in no way offensive, anti-Israel, or politically charged. It is simply a demand that hypocrisy and double-standards be overcome and replaced by humanity, legality, and rationality.

  • zened

    Joe you play the Kapo very nicely.

    All the Jews fenced in my Arab terrorism and Israeli rejectionism. The knives are out for the Jews once again; and this time they have nukes too.

    The difference between this time and last time is those Jews who are cowards and think they can escape the maelstrom are selling their own nation down the river.

    Everyone knows what is going to happen once Hamas gets the west bank. It will be a blood bath. However no one cares except Israelis and loyal Diaspora Jews. EVERYONE else is happy to take the risk sit back and say ‘they deserved it’.

    The amazing thing is that the biggest cheerleaders of the castration of Israel are Diaspora Jews clambering over Israeli’s Jews right to life.

    What happened to equality? If they want a Judenfrei West Bank how about a Muslim free Israel? If they want peace how about the palestinians stop teaching their kids that Jews drink human blood?

    You are no better than the Kapos of the 1940s forcing other Jews into the gas chambers by beating them over the head.

    I hope the paycheck makes you sleep nights. However you sound stupid enough to convince yourself you are doing the right thing.

    Mr. Babylon! You should be blacklisted from Israel you are a traitor. Why don’t you let Hamas write such articles? You do not need to help them.

  • jacobblues

    Once again, the idea of reaching a ‘peace deal’ rests with the idea that there are Israeli obligations and Arab rights. Unfortunately, after the nine year war with the Palestinians and 2006 fight with Hizballah has proved that without dual responsibilities, whatever ‘peace process’ is fronted, is doomed to failure.
    .
    .
    This problem was highlighted over the weekend when Egyptian foreign minister, Ahmed Aboul Gheit declared that even if Israel accedes to the demand to pull its citizens out of the West Bank, that the response from the Arab world would be that “the Arab states could accede to gradual normalization, each according to its own considerations.”
    .
    .
    In other words, Israel takes concrete steps for worthless maybe promises. 30+ years after Israel acceded to Egypt’s demands, 15+ years after Israel acceded to Jordan’s demands, 10 years after Israel pulled out of Lebanon to the UN’s satisfaction, and three+ years after pulling every last Jew, living and dead, out of Gaza, Israel is still waiting for even the most basic of normalized relationships with an Arab and Muslim world that remains content to still waffle over whether its willing to accept the idea of an independent Jewish state.
    .
    .
    Given the fact that Palestinian President Abu Mazen recently rejected the offer from former PM Olmert recently for practically everything the Palestinians are demanding, short of the Palestinian demand for the return of their people to Israel and total control of Jerusalem, one has to wonder what it will take to see any sort of trust building that the Arabs and Muslims are capable of offering. And that’s the issue with the so-called moderates
    .
    .
    Meanwhile, Joe Klein still cannot figure out a reasonable way to bring extremsists like HAMAS into the picture…but don’t you worry, they HAVE to be brought in. And all it will take is just some of the usual ‘arm twisting’ on Israel. Given that HAMAS already has Gaza, one wonders just what’s left for Israel to do to get HAMAS to move away from its stance of ‘destroy Israel and kill all the Jews’ to actual and real peace?
    .
    .
    But that’s not important, not when there are ‘settlements’ to remove and a security fence that has kept suicide bombers from Israeli busses, to tear down.

  • 53_3

    “But that’s not important, not when there are ‘settlements’ to remove and a security fence that has kept suicide bombers from Israeli buses, to tear down.”
    .
    You hit it on the nail head. Exactamundo. Those are exactly the reasons why there is fighting. See my above comment on your blatant hypocrisy.
    .
    All the rest of your drivel is basically a case of the elephant standing on a chair screaming:
    .
    A mouse! A mouse!

  • viciousmaniac

    What happened to equality? If they want a Judenfrei West Bank how about a Muslim free Israel?
    .
    Hear that everybody? Guess Israel doesn’t want to be the ME’s *snort* “only democracy” anymore.

  • Cliff

    neorationalist86: I know you probably won’t show up here again, but thank you for being rational.

  • 53_3

    These guys are experts at trying to interweave some rabidly racist tendencies under the calmest clinical reasoning – couched in terms of implicit self-superiority of everything Israeli and the equally implicit dog-like nature they attach to the Palestinians.
    .
    Spend a couple years at Independent Argument BBC and you’ll soon learn to recognize ‘em…

  • 53_3

    vicious:
    .
    What’s even worse is that Israel can’t just sniff loudly, claim everything’s so unfair, and loudly proclaim they are quitting, and taking all of their marbles with them.
    .
    Real friendship, in a real political dialogue, would go much farther…

  • 53_3

    Now I will take aim at zened:
    .
    “What happened to equality? If they want a Judenfrei West Bank how about a Muslim free Israel?”
    .
    Godwin’s law is generally applied to Gentiles who attempt to characterize the actions of Israelis to Nazism and/or the Holocaust.
    .
    I find that you have violated Godwin’s law yourself by invoking the memories of Germanic policies that led to the Holocaust. You are deliberately characterizing a whole people ["...Judenfrei West Bank..."] with Nazism and Holocaust invocations in order to justify your own blatant penchant for racist policies.
    .
    zened, you are attempting to equate the PA’s rejection of “settlements”, which is simply the desire to keep one’s own home, with Nazi and Holocaust related imagery to promote ethnic cleansing[...how about a Muslim free Israel?"].
    .
    zened, you are a shameful excuse for a human being.
    .
    Godwin’s law cuts both ways…

  • neorationalist86

    Cliff, you are most welcome. I will, in fact, be back from time to time to take the loonies to task. It is irrational to create a situation that breeds violence, then crack down on human rights in the name of preventing the very violence that you created. Israel has historically been the aggressor and has never intended to live peacefully amongst it Arab neighbors. From the beginning it has been a land-grab operation, yet Israeli apologists would have you believe they are some how doing Palestinians a favor by considering returning lands that Israel illegally occupied well after the 1947 partition was made. Its mind boggling that anyone would consider this argument to be associated with sane rationality, yet supporters of Israel rant in this continuously deceptive manner.

    The only reason I do not delve into the faults of Palestinian organizations, such as Hamas, is that is well-documented and often voiced even by those who oppose Israeli hegemony. The blunders and illegitimate operations of Israel, however, have been buried in the depths of obscurity by a well-oiled propaganda machine that equates criticism of the Israeli government with anti-Jewish sentiments, much like the above blogger, ZENED, who compared Joe Klein to a Nazi Kapo simply for making a pointed observation about the errs of Israeli tactics.

  • neorationalist86

    Bravo 53_3…..

  • krhys

    Thank you.

  • neorationalist86

    “Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French…What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct…If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs… As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.” GHANDI

  • halems

    Forcing the Israelis to give back the West Bank is equivalent to making the US give Texas and California back to Mexico. They were both taken fairly. In fact, the war that gave the Israelis the territory was started by the other guys.

  • zened

    53_3 Says 6:46pm

    You said: “Now I will take aim at zened…you are a shameful excuse for a human being”

    At least I am a human being you mutt.

    I just called for simple equality you oligophrenic Judeophobe.

    If you want Judenfrei west bank then you need to play equal with the Jews. That is unless you want them all dead.

    Your demonic rabid bile is spilling all over this forum for everyone to smell. Your bloodthirsty hunger for the death of Jewish Israelis castigates you to sub-human.

    You need to aim better freakzoid.

    neorationalist867:26pm

    Are you in a who-can-be-more-stupid competition with sub-human champion 53_3?

    The Jews lived in Israel before there were Arabs Islam and before your ancestors evolved from fleas. The Jews are the natives in Israel the Arabs the invaders, occupiers, racists and murderers. Israel belongs to the Jews more than England belongs to the English, or America belongs to anyone but the native Americans; time for you to go back to the country of your ancestors freak.

    You are just another hater trying to commit genocide on the Jews. Do you have a dark black uniform that you put on when no one is looking?

    You think the British helped the Jews settle in Israel? You are more stupid than I thought. The British were sinking the ships full of Jews who had escaped being gassed.

    Joe Kapo you must be so proud to have created a forum where all these neo-nazis and Islamic supremacists feel comfortable to cheer on the genocide of your people.

    Anyone of you bloodthirsty freaks calling for the death of Jews and de-legitimising their right to self determination just prove that they have to fight to live. You yell for genocide from the comfort of your apartment or sewer; but I doubt one of you has the bravery to face a single IDF soldier on the battlefield.

    If you push Israel hard enough they will nuke everything in their way; why should they be polite anymore with the bloodcurdling calls for their mass murder in these forums?

  • zened

    neorationalist86 5:47PM

    Here is a good example of neo-Jewish-blood-libel

    The post says: “The illegal use [by Israel] of banned munitions, such as white phosphorous”

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0205/p04s01-wogn.html?page=1
    The International Committee of the Red Cross saying:
    “…the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), which said in mid-January that it found no evidence of illegal phosphorus use”.
    It is legal to use phosphorus to mark targets and as smoke screen cover. It is illegal to drop it on civilians.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/16/phosphorus-bombs-video-israel-gaza
    “The M825A1 rounds, which are the kind identified as being fired by Israeli forces, are made primarily for use as a smokescreen in a way that limits their effect as an incendiary weapon, experts say.”

    Both sources are typically anti-Israel.

    This is one example of a vast effort by Judeophobics to lie and deceive about Israel in order to simply destroy it. They give no thought to the consequent genocide that will be perpetrated against the Jews living there.

    The Holocaust was not a momentary aberration in the 20th century. Western, Christian and Islamic cultures have been imposing mass killings, invasions, occupations, enslavement, dispossession, blood-libels and de-legitimising on Jews for more than two thousand years.

  • neorationalist86

    ZENED…

    I find your argument laughable and myopic that because Jews resided in the Middle East in large numbers over 1000 years ago that they are somehow entitled to do as they wish now.

    And yet again you show your utter disgraceful conscience in attempting to twist criticism of the Israeli government into some Jew bashing. Will the world forever have to handle Israelis with verbal kid-gloves because of your treatment under the Nazis? Has the injustice given you a lifetime free pass to enact injustices on your Palestinian neighbors? You clearly are of the mind that it does. You wonder why people are disgusted with your country and with its policies? It is simple. You have attempted to elevate your nation above the law in response to the Third Reich’s oppression. What of the other victims of the Holocaust? Do they have such utter disdain for humanity and international norms? No. Only your country continues to use the past as justification for limitless injustices today.

  • neorationalist86

    45,000,000 souls perished in WWII. But only the 6,000,000 Million Jews matter. The only blood that matters is Jewish blood.

  • neorationalist86

    Correction: 6 Million

  • neorationalist86

    Ok, so you took issue with my accusation of illegal use of white phosphorous by repeating Israel’s claims that it only uses the munition in accordance with international law and its purpose is to light the area. Answer me this. Where in Gaza is there any area not overflowing with civilians? Where in Gaza could white phosphorous be used without endangering civilians? And even if Israel were in perfect harmony with international law in regard to illegal munitions, what of my other points? You conveniently chose to ignore every other transgression that I listed…Have you a rebuttal?

  • usaone

    neorationalist86-

    I love all of the rhetoric about the “illegal” acts of Israel. What about the thousands of Israeli civilians bombed to death by CRAZY RADICAL ISLAM???

    PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES, this is what Israel and the USA has to deal with, CRAZY RADICAL MUSLIMS who want every Jew and American DEAD. The sooner you realize this, the better off we will all be. And its not just the PLO whackos, its the Iranians, the Saudis, the Syrians, etc. etc.

    THESE ARE THIRD WORLD PEOPLE LIVING IN THE 7TH CENTURY. But for oil we wouldn’t tolerate their nonsense.

  • http://nooryorkcity.wordpress.com/2009/06/01/crazy-arabs-crazya%c2%a0jews-swampland-a%c2%a2a%c2%82%c2%aca%c2%80%c2%9c-time-com/ Crazy Arabs, Crazy Jews – Swampland – TIME.com « My New Ummah

    [...] Crazy Arabs, Crazy Jews – Swampland – TIME.com 1 06 2009 Crazy Arabs, Crazy Jews – Swampland – TIME.com [...]

  • usaone

    “neorationalist86 Says:
    Monday, June 1, 2009 at 9:12 pm
    Ok, so you took issue with my accusation of illegal use of white phosphorous by repeating Israel’s claims that it only uses the munition in accordance with international law and its purpose is to light the area. Answer me this. Where in Gaza is there any area not overflowing with civilians? Where in Gaza could white phosphorous be used without endangering civilians? And even if Israel were in perfect harmony with international law in regard to illegal munitions, what of my other points? You conveniently chose to ignore every other transgression that I listed…Have you a rebuttal?”

    Really, you are that ignorant. Tell me which UN convention authorizes the use of 7-15 year old children to strap high explosives to themselves and blow up crowds of innocent civilians in the name of Islam? Go back to the KKK.

  • zened

    neorationalist86 9:0, 9:06, 9:09, 9:12 (spam yawn)

    Well firstly you demonstrate your racist assumptions:

    You say:” You wonder why people are disgusted with your country and with its policies?”
    Excuse me racist-boy I am not a Jew or an Israeli; I just get sick of all this Jew bashing, it is so old.

    You say: “I find your argument laughable and myopic that because Jews resided in the Middle East in large numbers over 1000 years ago that they are somehow entitled to do as they wish now.”
    This is disingenuous; the Jews lived in Israel for over 5,500 years they have been occupied, enslaved and dispersed from there several times. Each time they migrated home and rebuilt their country. Living in their homeland is one thing they claim, ‘doing as they wish’ is your own racist spin. Historical claim is recognised in International law. Israel is a legal State with equal rights to the USA. The EU definition of Judeophobia (Jew-hatred) includes a prohibition on de-legitimising Israel. This also shows you are racist against Jews.
    http://eumc.eu.int/eumc/material/pub/AS/AS-WorkingDefinition-draft.pdf

    You say: “And yet again you show your utter disgraceful conscience in attempting to twist criticism of the Israeli government into some Jew bashing.”
    Again you are disingenuous. I find the one sided arguments against Israel as a type of Judeophobia. Some Judeophobics think they can get away with allowing Saudi Arabia to ban Christians and Jews from entering their country (most Arab states ban Jews), this policy is now being applied to the West Bank; but somehow Muslims should be able to live in a Jewish country when the Jewish country is less than 1% of the land area of the Muslim ones. If you cannot see the logical one-sidedness then you need to go back to kindergarten and learn some maths.

    You say: “Will the world forever have to handle Israelis with verbal kid-gloves because of your treatment under the Nazis?” You suggest that the Nazi Holocaust was the only mass murder of Jews. In fact Jews have been mass murdered on a regular basis by Christians and Muslims for two thousand years (1500 in the case of Muslims). So yes they deserve a long break from mass murder.

    You say: “Has the injustice given you a lifetime free pass to enact injustices on your Palestinian neighbors?”
    Again, not my neighbours: No Jew has argued that their historical suffering gives them any rights over the palestinians, give a link to one who says that. The fact is that Jordan holds more palestinians than exist in Israel. Jordan was the Arab state created for them. Go whine at the King of Jordan who has killed more palestinians than the Israelis have done in total since 1948,(and stolen their state). Learn some history oligophrenic.

    You say: “You wonder why people are disgusted with your country and with its policies?”
    Again, not my country: Muslims have a theological block against a Jewish State; it is against their religion any other reasoning is a smoke screen. Christians are taught that Jew were inherited group responsibility for the death of (the Jew) Jesus. However now the Pope has decided that this is an un-Christian view. Nevertheless this was the basis of mass murders of Jews by Christians for centuries.

    You rant on: “Do they [other Holocaust victims] have such utter disdain for humanity and international norms? No. Only your country continues to use the past as justification for limitless injustices today.”
    Again, not my country: However you attempt to argue that the Holocaust was perpetrated against other racial groups when it was not. You could argue that it was deployed against gypsies but it is hard to argue that they are a national group or Diaspora. The Jews were the only sizeable stateless dispossessed (by Muslims) nation that was purposefully attacked. The other nations attacked had their own countries and armies to defend themselves. Over one third of Global Jews were industrially mass murdered, a much higher percentage than any other. Only Jews had specific laws past against them, had to put on identification badges and were blamed for all the world’s ills. They were a special case. To attempt to diminish this as you do is also an act of racism according to the EU definition above.

    You accept you lied: “you took issue with my accusation of illegal use of white phosphorous by repeating Israel’s claims that it only uses the munition in accordance with international law and its purpose is to light the area.”
    The population of Gaza voted for a war of genocide against Israel, they also danced on 911, I am starting to see that you are not an American. The Israelis sent telephone calls to everyone before they attacked at great risk to themselves. The only reason there were any civilians near the fighting was because Hamas used them as human shields because they knew people like you would disingenuously blame Israel for the casualties. Further the anti-Israel press prefers to use Hamas (terrorist group) figures for casualties rather than Israeli ones. It seems fairly one sided that America can bomb whole villages flat with phosphorus in Afghanistan but Israel is the only one mentioned for defending their homeland from attack with the same smoke screen tool. Again racism.
    You say: “even if Israel were in perfect harmony with international law in regard to illegal munitions, what of my other points?” Well sorry but if you cannot read objective facts which I gave you that the use was legal, then you probably think the world is flat. I have addressed your racist diatribe against Israel and there is not one point that is not either Judeophobic, bias, disingenuous, mendacious or manipulation.

    Consider yourself rebutted. You will have to deny reality to answer and you will probably do so. Jew haters have blood-libelled Jews too long to stop now.

    Nevertheless for the younger readers my simple analysis of your racist rant is enough for them to google some facts. The haters will remain racist sub-human haters.

    Once again Joe Kapo – you should be proud to have provoked this level of disingenuous Judeophobia in TIME. Next Passover you can ask the question: “What did God do for you…” (the contrary son), you are less of a Jew than I am, and I am not one!

  • zened

    Cliff 9:59pm

    You might find this enlightening:

    “More than 70% of the British Mandate of Palestine was east of the Jordan River and was known as “Transjordan”. Until 1921, the land was intended to be part of the Jewish National Homeland, the land designated by the League of Nations to be the future Jewish State of Israel. In 1921, the British gave semi-autonomous control of Transjordan to the future King Abdullah I of Jordan, of the Hashemite family.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jordan

    So much for the British helping the Jews. The British stabbed the Jews in the back; several times and while the Nazis were preparing the Holocaust and carrying it out.

    Some Jihadist will probably try to edit this history so catch it while you can.

    Like I said Jordan is the palestinian state. It is three times bigger than Israel. That is where the palestinians should live. Less palestinians left Israel in 1948 (under 700,000) than there were Jews expelled from the Muslim countries (more than 850,000). Israel absorbed the Jews, Jordan should have absorbed the Arabs.

    The only reason they want to make another palestinians state is to carve up Israel in preparation to first destroy is and secondly murder every last Jew there.

    Look at the Hamas Charter, article 7 final quote: Then tell me these people are not raving lunatic racists against Jew just like the Nazis (and I will call you the tooth fairy).
    http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
    “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews) [ALL of them]”.

    Case closed.

    Hey Joe Kapo, do not you think the facts I have highlighted would be better subjects for your so-called journalism? Less Judeophobic cocktail parties maybe, but you would be doing the right thing.

  • juniusredivivus

    Zened, out of curiosity, does your name equate to “rusty” in Yiddish? Hebrew? Moronic? Purely a linguistic question.

  • zened

    juniusredivivus 11:05

    Is that really all you could think of to say? Firstly you will note that I am not a Jew, you have the Judeophobic bug too? You probably do not know the saying: Sarcasm is the lowest for of wit. Otherwise you would have kept your vacuous an ineffective jibe to yourself. I think you made a typing error you last questions makes more sense as:

    “Purely a Moronic question”

  • neorationalist86

    USAONE…

    Typical response, you attempt to deflect criticism of Israel’s sins by asking ‘what of the jihadists’ faults?’ Does the fact that Islamic fundamentalists have carried out bombings, murders, and other illegal attacks make Israel any less culpable? The answer is no. The only reason I haven’t gotten in to the actions of Hamas is because they are already ostracized from the international community and my rhetoric on that matter would be overkill. Israel is never taken to task for its faults though, so I speak out.

  • neorationalist86

    ZENED….

    “(We) treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination.” Zionist writer Ahad Ha’am

    “After we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine”
    -Ben Gurion, 1937

    ‘The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever.”
    -Menachem Begin, 1948

    “We must expel Arabs and take their places.”
    David Ben Gurion, future Prime Minister of Israel, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

    Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.
    “Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment… Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”

    “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
    Israel Koenig, “The Koenig Memorandum”

    “A voluntary reconciliation with the Arabs is out of the question either now or in the future. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some rich man or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempt to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE!… Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important… to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot – or else I am through with playing at colonizing.”
    Vladimir Jabotinsky, founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud), The Iron Wall, 1923.

    “Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries – all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left.”
    Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency’s Colonization Department in 1940. From “A Solution to the Refugee Problem”

    “We must do everything to insure they (the Palestinians) never do return.” Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. “The old will die and the young will forget.”
    David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar’s Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

    “It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”
    Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

    “Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours… Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”
    Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

    “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti – Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
    -David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister) quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

    “When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.”
    -Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

    “The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war.”
    -Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha’aretz, 19 March 1972.

    “We will have to face the reality that Israel is neither innocent, nor redemptive. And that in its creation, and expansion; we as Jews, have caused what we historically have suffered; a refugee population in Diaspora.”
    -Martin Buber, Jewish Philosopher, addressed Prime Minister Ben Gurion on the moral character of the state of Israel with reference to the Arab refugees in March 1949

    JUSTIFY THESE STATEMENTS FROM ISRAELI LEADERS THEMSELVES AND TELL ME THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE MALEVOLENT INTENTIONS, THAT THEY DO NOT SUBJUGATE THE PALESTINIANS IN COMPLETE DISREGARD FOR THE SUFFERING THEY THEMSELVES HAD RECENTLY ENDURED AT THE HANDS OF THE NAZIS…

  • neorationalist86

    AS FOR THE SUGGESTIONS THAT PALESTINIANS RESIDING IN CURRENT DAY ISRAEL, GAZA, OR WEST BANK SHOULD HAVE SIMPLY MOVED TO TRANSJORDAN BECAUSE THAT WAS A PORTION OF LAND ALLOCATED TO THE PALESTINIANS, WORDS CANNOT CONVEY HOW WRONG THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN. FIRST OF ALL, GAZA AND WEST BANK (WHICH WERE MUCH LARGER THAN THEY ARE NOW THANKS TO ISRAELI ANNEXATION) WERE ALSO PARTITIONED FOR PALESTINIANS PER THE 1947 UN PLAN, SO WHY LEAVE? SECONDLY, REGARDLESS OF THE LAND IN JORDAN AVAILABLE THOSE WHO RESIDED IN CURRENT DAY ISRAEL, GAZA AND WEST BANK NUMBERED OVER A MILLION. SO YOU ARE SUGGESTING THAT 1 MILLION PEOPLE BE DISPLACED SIMPLY TO APPEASE A PEOPLE WHO FELT THE SUDDEN NEED TO RETURN TO THE THE LAND THAT THEIR ANCESTORS CAME FROM OVER 1000 YEARS EARLIER? ABSURD!!!! ISRAEL HAS SQUANDERED THE GOODWILL THAT ALLOWED THEM TO RESETTLE IN THE ‘PROMISED LAND’ AND NOW BEARS A STRIKING RESEMBLANCE TO PAST REGIMES OF OPPRESSION.

  • zened

    neorationalist8611:26

    You have demonstrated what I said, you are a practised anti-Zionist, Judeophobic and Jew hater. You certainly did not do all this anti-Israel research this evening.

    What you fail to mention is that Israel was attacked by the entire Arab world in 1948 (and several times subsequently). At that time the Arabs themselves asked the Arab population to leave Israel to make it easier for the Arab armies to exterminate all the Jews.

    You also fail to mention that the Arabs had been trying to exterminate all the Jews before 1948. In fact the Arabs had sided with Nazi Germany. Your rant is one-sided, that is what gives you away; try watching this video to see what the Arabs were up to while the Nazis were gassing Jews:

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xd12e_hitler-et-le-mufti

    ALL of the quotes that you provide are historically in the context of a series of wars the Arabs started against Israel with the purpose of destroying it. You only talk about one side though; surprise, surprise.

    For your information the Arabs were on the loosing side of WW2. Unless you acknowledge the Arabs genocidal wars against Israel you paint the Israelis as the only agent provocateurs, which is disingenuous to the point of racist propaganda.

    I have not had time to check each quote but I am sure that they are not all genuine, I will have a look in the morning; but it is pointless to attempt to argue with a person like you who looks just at the Jews defensive struggle without mentioning who they were defending against or why.

    The Jews are engaged in a struggle for survival, they are in an ‘us or them’ scenario that the majority Muslim world had imposed upon them. However your argument is one sided as it fails to address that reality.

    You are not debating you are attempting to transmit Judeophobic propaganda. I answered what I thought was the just solution above. You singularly failed to mention that Israel was the only place for the 850,000 plus Jews who the Muslims expelled from across the Arab world in 1948. Of course that facts does not matter to you.

    If you cannot be balanced you cannot debate. You have probably heard of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a confirmed Russian Judeophobic forgery. I regard some of these quotes in the same way. The fact that you have not mentioned the bloodcurdling threats to exterminate the Jews by the Arabs and their leaders (which continue to this day) says it all about the balance you are proposing.

  • zened

    neorationalist86 11:41

    You have been answered.

    1) The palestinians took 70% of palestine in 1921 AGAINST the Mandate from the League of Nations.
    2) The Arab population of Gaza, West Bank and Israel in 1948 was less than 800,000.
    3) The Jewish population expelled from Muslim countries in 1948 was over 850,000.
    4) Just as the expelled Jews were absorbed into Israel, the palestinians who left Israel should have been absorbed into Jordan.
    5) USING CAPITALS DOES NOT MAKE YOUR ARGUMENT STRONGER

    Again you only look at the Arab side with your whining. The fact remains that with Gaza and the West Bank the Arabs will have gained over 80% of palestine. They are fine with 70%, which is Jordan.

    All you want is Israel to be destroyed and its population murdered which is what will happen if Israel looses a war with the Arabs. This is why you only whinge about Arab losses and you ignore what the Arabs have done to the Jews. This is a standard racist position well known to readers.

  • juniusredivivus

    Zened, my friend, I asked, simply because you sound suspiciously like an incoherent and deeply tedious hard-right troll who occasionally defiles this space. Still, since you insist that your childish and dishonest rants are purely your own, I am happy to take your word for it.

  • neorationalist86

    I have seen no balance to your diatribes. Simply ‘Long Live Israel, the High and Mighty Moral Beacon Amidst the Sea of Racist Sub Human Arabs!’

    That is the extent of your commentary. I have noted on two occasions that I will not be bogged into speaking about Arab/Muslim wrongs because we are dealing with terrorist organizations. There is nothing to say regarding them that hasn’t been said already. They are ostracized from the international community and have no global base of support save for other extremists. They are wrong and I condemn them. What is more important to me, though, is when a democratic government, a member of the international community behaves no better than an extremist terrorist organization. That requires some commentary. The arguments I have provided, yes they are painting one side of teh coin, yet they are factual and accurate. I will refrain from personal attacks on you because I do not see the benefit that this dialogue would gain from such an assault. You, however, have no qualms with labeling me a xenophobic, Jew hater. I have my opinion. You have yours. I have done extensive research on the topic, have traveled to Israel and the West Bank and have witnessed first-hand the propaganda machine of the Israeli government. My views are well-entrenched, but they are far from racist or prejudiced. I recommend that you take a similar approach.

  • zened

    juniusredivivus 12:05

    At least the other racists here have something to say and can express points of view without resorting to generalised insults. When you start attacking the other poster and not the arguments you are admitting you have nothing to say and have lost the debate. Thank you.

    You have said nothing on-topic in your last two posts; keep it up!

  • neorationalist86

    I don’t blame everything on the Jews, by no means. But they (Israel) have received nothing more than a harsh rebuke for decades of atrocities and infinite violations of international law. Arabs and Muslims, however, have a spoiled name in the international community. You hear of a terrorist attack, you immediately think, Muslim. You hear about the negatives, constantly, the repressive regimes, the ‘death to Israel’ slogans, the oil cartels, the intolerance, etc. When do you hear of the peace loving Muslims that make up a majority of the 1.2 billion Muslims in this world?

    Then you have Israel, just as dirty, just as negligent, just as responsible for this long-waged conflict. Yet any criticism of this state is construed as ‘anti-Semitism’, as some fabricated hatred of the Jewish people. Israel, for all its self-pity and allegations of being targeted unfairly by the media and the international community, is the only nation on earth that is truly untouchable. A false sense of guilt for past sins, now have given Israel a green light for anything they choose to do. This is not about blaming the Jews, this is about taking a corrupt and violent government to task for its sins…

    Nothing more, nothing less…

  • neorationalist86

    Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314 in current day Israel, Gaza and West Bank. Immigration to the region begin to pick up with the promise of a Jewish homeland, yet by 1948 the ratio in this partitioned land was still 3:1 Arab to Jew. The UN Partition Plan allocated 55% of that land to the new Jewish state, yet only 1/3 of the population there was Jewish. Hence Arab hostility.

  • zened

    neorationalist8612:08

    If you accept the act that Israelis face extinction from Arabs you have gone a long way towards understanding their siege mentality.

    The Arabs can make a peace with them tomorrow. The Arabs have the land the resources and the political power to do so. Israelis unable to make peace with people like Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran who scream death to Jews, death to Israel and by the way, death to America.

    I suggest you address you desire for peace to those who can deliver it, the Arabs. It is the Arabs who have failed to make peace with the Israelis until the Israelis commit national suicide by allowing an influx of million s of Arabs into Israel to destroy is unique Jewish Nature.

    Recognise that reality and you are someway to understanding that Israel has no options but to fight for survival. The world likes to paint Israel as the superior force but 5 million Jews face annihilation by 1.6 Billion Muslims.The Jews are the underdogs in this fight.

    If you want to avoid “personal attacks” then I suggest you stop describing my response to your false protestations against Israel as diatribe, and further do not put words into my mouth that I never said:

    While you falsely attribute the words: “Long Live Israel, the High and Mighty Moral Beacon Amidst the Sea of Racist Sub Human Arabs!’ I will ask you where I said those words, as I never said them; and I will call you a liar for falsely saying that. So please do not hit me with that self-righteous nonsense while you lie about what I have said.

  • zened

    neorationalist86 12:21

    You still fail to consider the 850,000 plus Jews expelled from Arab countries by Muslims in 1948. That is why the Jews are so intransigent about their right to life.

    Well that is it for me until the morning, I am several hours time zone ahead of you so it’s off to bed for me.

    Good luck in your quest to kill all the Jews, I hope they get you first!

    I have hated bullies since I was at school, and learned to recognise which side is causing trouble. By the way the Muslims earned their own reputation by doing stuff like 911, which is nothing to do with Israel and the Jews.

  • neorationalist86

    You’ve called me ‘subhuman,’ ‘racist,’ ‘Jew hater,’ and called for my death. Its quite revealing about your insecurity that you would then consider my assessment of your words as ‘diatribe’ as a personal attack on you. Furthermore, the quotation “Long Live Israel, the High and Mighty Moral Beacon Amidst the Sea of Racist Sub Human Arabs!” was merely a summation of what I gathered as your point of view. It was never stated that those were your words and any intelligent reader would gather that I was ridiculing your noxious point of view and not actually quoting you. Hypersensitive are we?

    And for your information, the 1.2 billion Muslims are not the enemy of Israel. The only enemies of Israel that could do harm to her are its neighbors and Iran. Considering that Iran is the only one of those who possesses any real strength, your idea of Israel being the underdog is quite laughable. They receive more funding for military advances by the US each year than the whole world receives in humanitarian aid. Something is seriously amiss.

  • neorationalist86

    In case you’re not aware, Israel has earned quite a reputation as well, especially among intelligence communities.

    1955- Lavon Affair, Israeli agents caught attempting to sabotage US assets and installations in Egypt in an effort to undermine a growing relationship between Egypt and US

    1967-IDF aircraft bombs the USS Liberty off the coast of Egypt killing 34 and wounding nearly 200 US servicemen despite radio communication between the ship and IDF forces verifying that it was an American naval vessel. President Lyndon B. Johnson punched the Israeli ambassador who came with his excuse that it was an accident.

    1983-Mossad uncovered intelligence regarding plans to bombs US Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon. Mossad had agents in position who witnessed the attack and did nothing, explicitly given orders to stand down. Such an attack on US forces by Muslim extremists would solidify a US-Israeli alliance.

    1984-CIA Agent Bill Buckley is kidnapped and later killed in Lebanon. CIA was assured by Mossad that they were doing everything possible to track the perpetrators using their hum-int on the ground in Lebanon. Released memos later verified that Mossad had made a decision that since CIA was taking an interest in PLO they wouldn’t help. Again, the death of a CIA agent would increase support for Israel.

    1985- Jonathan Pollard,a Navy Analyst, arrested for passing sensitive military intelligence onto Israeli agents

    1989- Victor Ostrosvky defects from Mossad and warns CIA of Mossad ‘black flag’ operations aimed at undermining US relations with Arab states, including his assertion that the night club bombing in Germany where US servicemen were killed was wrongly attributed to Libya by Mossad to entice US action against Libya. French Intel supported this claim that Libya was not involved, but it was too late. Pres. Reagan had already bombed targets in Libya in retribution.

    1997-Suspicion of a mole inside the Clinton White House after NSA intercepts phone call to Danny Yatom, Head of Mossad. Suspicion of wiretapping in the White House. Earlier in Clinton Administration an overhaul of the White House communications had been done, the lead contractor being Israeli firm, Amdoc.

    2001-US Army publishes report citing the growing risk of Mossad carrying out attacks against the US and blaming Arab terrorists.

    2001-2009- Over 200 Israeli spies arrested and deported to Israel for spying, acts of sabotage, and attempted bombings/assassinations to be carried out under the guise of “Arab radicals”

    2008-After FBI and Justice Department exposes Israeli agent Ben-Ami Kadish in US, CIA Agent Roland Carnaby is gunned down in Houston where known Mossad ring was operating. Carnaby had been a vocal critic of Israeli spying in the US.

    **These are but of few of the ways in which Israel has stabbed my nation in the back, resulting in the deaths of US servicemen, US intelligence agents, and unwarranted retaliation against innocent parties based on ‘false flag’ operations. Earlier you suggested that as an American I should support Israel in the fight against a common enemy. In my mind, Israel is the enemy. Israel accepts our billions of dollars in aid and yet continues to subvert our national security solely for the interests of Israel. Israel is not an ally, never has been. The only blood that matters is Jewish blood.

  • neorationalist86

    Good night, and good luck.

  • zened

    Neorationalist86 12:38

    I did not call for your death, I just said:
    Good luck in your quest to kill all the Jews, I hope they get you first!
    That is you plural. The only way you will die is if you continue to attack them. In which case you deserve it. Do as the Jews do, stop trying to kill: Go get a PhD and try to heal. They do that more than any other ethnic group or nation.

    “the quotation “Long Live Israel, the High and Mighty Moral Beacon Amidst the Sea of Racist Sub Human Arabs!” was merely a summation of what I gathered as your point of view”. You make up facts as you go along without feeling the need to substantiate them. You attribute words to people when they never said them. What utter nonsence.

    “your idea of Israel being the underdog is quite laughable.” The Arabs have oil doh. The Arabs have all the money in the world and have precipitated the financial crisis by using their (illegal) cartel to push oil prices so high that the world economy collapsed. The bad debt was a secondary issue. There are 160 Arabs attacking Israel for every 1 Jew defending. Muslims are calling for the destruction of Israel not the other way around. Muslims like Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas are calling for the murder of ALL Jews in the world. Get you facts straight before you pontificate.

    “They [Israel] receive more funding for military advances by the US each year than the whole world receives in humanitarian aid.” You are just making up libel against Israel as you go along. This claim is rubbish, verify this nonsense with links to facts, or admit you are just lying.

    Neorationalist86 1:42am

    It is interesting that you can get the number of deaths or attacks you attribute to Jews against America onto tone page and post. In fact the only direct deaths that MIGHT be attributable are those from the USS Liberty. The Israelis still claim this was a mistake. You have the audacity to blame Hezbollah attacks in Lebanon on US forces, on the Israelis because you say that Israel did not want the US about them. This is precisely that I mean when I say you are Judeophobic and apply one-sided rules of Exceptionalism against them. The death of those marines in Lebanon was the fault of Hezbollah who bombed them not the Israelis; to say this is self evidently anti-Israel bias and pro-Islamic terrorist bias. A child can see that.

    If you want a list of Muslim Attacks I cannot get them onto one page, as there are so many. These involve the death of thousands of Americans in attacks that Muslims gleefully say are intentional.

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

    You demonstrate with each post that you are racist against Jews and Israel. You attack them for behaviour that is common with even America. Self-defence is not only their right it is an obligation.

    It is really hard to guess your religion!

  • commotosed

    Regardless of his postion on Israel Joe Klein is in fact Obama’s lap dog. He’ll do or say anything to bolster Obama’s image and get himself another photo op on Air Force One. This is the same guy who couldn’t contain his gushing love for Hillary until it became obvious she wasn’t gonna get the nom and he jumped ship to the Obama campaign. He is a greasy obese sorry excuse for a jounalist.

  • usaone

    “neorationalist86 Says:
    Tuesday, June 2, 2009 at 12:21 am
    Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314 in current day Israel, Gaza and West Bank. Immigration to the region begin to pick up with the promise of a Jewish homeland, yet by 1948 the ratio in this partitioned land was still 3:1 Arab to Jew. The UN Partition Plan allocated 55% of that land to the new Jewish state, yet only 1/3 of the population there was Jewish. Hence Arab hostility.”

    Lets get some perspective here neorationalist (or is it neo national socialist?). Before the rise of Hitler and Stalin the world’s Jewish population was about 10 million. After them? About 2 million. As an example of your logic, if Mexicans were strapping high explosives to themselves in our border towns and killing scores of Americans in the name of Mexican expansionism, do you think the US would come down heavy handed? Hell yes. Same logic applies here.

  • eliyoyo

    crap the caps dueede, Peace accords almost agreed upon by Yaseer Araphat and the Israelies…but Yaseer put the Kaboosh on it. einen shanda. Two peeps negotiate, with a commitment to agree and they do… but the Hamoose and the Fatoose automatically renig, and shoot their mouths and rockets breaking any accord treaty. Didn’t work for 5,000 years, Y should it now?

  • fhmadvocat

    jacobblues,

    I can never underestimate your whining about how Israel has been “wronged” by the Arab world for its overtures of “peace”. You complain about the “Cold Peace” between Israel and Egypt and you have completely ignored the benefits Israel has gained. Since the peace with Egypt, Egypt has never acted against Israel and in fact has sought to facilitate the peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. As far a Jordan, Israel has long enjoyed an under the table relationship with the Heshimite Kingdom which lead to the division Palestine, with Jordan getting the West Bank in 1947 and even calling Israel in 1973 to get permission to attack Israel in 1973 for domestic purposes. It is no mistake that when the PLO tried to overthrow the kingdom in 1970, Israel was poised to protect the kingdom if Syria intervened.

    As far as the Palestinians and President Abbas, what did Olmert really offer to the Palestinians? He promised to talk and talk, all the while Israel was taking more Palestinian land. Abbas has done all he can on Israel’s behalf and watched as his standing in the Palestinian community has sunk lower and lower and he has nothing to show for it. Olmert talked a good game, but offered nothing.

    The Israeli government is like the man whose hair is on fire, and tries to put it out with gasoline. The only time Israel has responded to Palestinian demands has been with the Palestinians resorted to violence. Israel responded to the first intifada, after doing nothing for 20 years. Ehud Barak only offered real concessions at Taba after the second intifada (though this was for election purposes, but it was too late as Israeli Arabs abandoned Labor in the following elections). Sharon unilaterally withdrew from Gaza without getting symbolic concessions from Abbas. It had the appearance that Hamas has won a “victory” for “driving” the Israelis out. Over the years, Israel has released hundreds of Hizbollah prisoners for the bones of dead soldiers and an Israeli drug dealer caught in Lebanon, but only belatedly started releasing some prisoners to Abbas, and these were mostly political prisoners. Israel only seems to pay attention to Palestinians when they are violent or when the United States asks.

    Bibi will not offer anything. In truth, it is not in Israel’s interest to have a Palestinian state. That is why after the partition of 1947, Israel was only too happy for Jordan to take over the West Bank. Israel knows that a Palestinian state would only remind the world of what the Zionists did to the Palestinians and Israel would no longer be viewed in the West as “David” but would be viewed as “Goliath”.

  • maximusrex23

    Mr. Klein’s comments unfortunately reflect a biased political opinion that conforms more directly to the Palestinian narrative and demands than it does to the reality of the the negotiations that it will take to actually implement a peace deal. Fortunately, he is just a pundit armed only with a column. I couldn’t disagree more with what Klein says should happen rather than his definition of what is.

    Those who believe in the pipe dream that all the settlements should be kept are in for a shock. Beginning with Oslo, if not before, and certainly by Ariel Sharon, it has been a common understanding that aside from the major settlement blocs most would have to be evacuated. Gaza was a test run and its unilateralism, combined with the absence of reciprocating concessions from the Palestinians, and the subsequent violence from Hamas essentially bringing the frontlines closer to Israel, has left the Israeli public in general with no stomach to evacuate West Bank settlements without any security guarantees.

    With that in mind, is Fatah in a position to give Israel security guarantees and uphold them? Duh, No. It will be at least 10-years from people I’ve spoken to for the PA to develop its security forces enough to exert control over the West Bank. The relative absence of violence in the West Bank during the Gaza operation this past December/January was an encouraging sign but still does not reflect an adequately functioning government that could do this at all times.

    The settlements in essence are a bargaining tool from the Israeli point of view and an important one at that. A freeze without reciprocation, in essence becomes an American-Israeli fight, the fantasy of all those who think the U.S. is too close to Israel. Nothing is required of the Palestinians and reflects two views: Israel views the settlements as bargaining tools, the Palestinians view it as their land and settlements to be stopped because it is being “stolen” from them without concession.

    Nevertheless, the proof that settlements are part of teh discussion, not a hands down stop the building proposition – is in the pudding. The Palestinian view has been flexible as has the Israeli one. There have been discussions revolved around territorial swaps in the Galilee for land taken up by the largest settlement blocs, ones that seem to have gained traction. Freezing settlement blocs will only satisfy one’s moral dilemmas while not actually helping Israel or the Palestinians achieve what they need to close out a deal.

    Freezing of settlements without reciprocation may in fact damage peace prospects especially if violence does occur afterwards making Israel less likely to negotiate and exposing the PA for its weaknesses, inabilities, and lack of willingness to do what is necessary to ensure a deal holds firm. In the absence of that, why would Israel give away, with great internal anguish (if you thought Gaza was difficult) a bargaining tool in return for nothing except accolades from moralists like Mr. Klein.

    A second issue Klein glosses over is capabilities. The Israeli government since Sharon’s stroke has been ineffectually weak. Olmert’s peace propositions, especially after his bungling of the war against Hezbollah, essentially came from positions of weakness (much like Abbas) and had no chance of succeeding had Abbas even been capable. Olmert did not enjoy enough support within the government or the Israeli public to be able to move on a deal. He did Israel a tremendous disservice in that respect because these are considered Israel’s negotiating positions when it is clear that the government isn’t strong enough and the public doesn’t have confidence in such a deal’s success.

    Netanyahu faces the same dilemma but he’s not promising the world. His statements are calculated not to offend his electorate and are really based on a wait-and-see approach. If something positive starts to happen he can be compelled to move but if it isn’t he’ll stay put. Abbas has indicated the same thing and based on their current positions they are doing what’s best in their own interests.

    To understand what I’m saying one need only remind themselves of the image of Bush, Olmert, and Abbas meeting at Camp David to to know that anything they were discussing would be untenable. Rabin succeeded in promoting Oslo b/c he came from a position of strength. Sharon completed withdrawal from Gaza b/c he negotiated the Israeli political system and moved from a position of strength. Arafat, despite his odious record, played off all the Palestinian factions to maintain his power and was able to return to power from a position of strength. Unfortunately, Netanyahu’s first term, Barak, and Olmert have put Israel at a serious disadvantage, while Abbas has lost the only gift Arafat gave the Palestinians – autonomy – which now resides in the hands of Syria and Iran with their negative vetoes.

    Abbas does not have control of the Palestinian destiny precisely b/c Iran and Syria can condemn it to failure. Klein’s assertion that we should open negotiations with the movement is based on naivete and wishful thinking. Hamas’ day-to-day affairs are run from Gaza but its overarching policy and political stance takes direction from Damascus, which in turn is subordinate to Iran in many ways. Hamas also takes funding and its military operatives receive Iranian training and weapons much in the same way Hezbollah does. Simply because they exist does not mean we should legitimate them. Better governance and services could significantly cut into Hamas support, tools that Hamas uses to overlay their basically violent essence. Enabling Hamas to participate in a new Palestinian government condemns it to failure because it does not support the aims and success of that government. It does not support peace with Israel or upholds any of the prior agreements. In other words, their committment to violent struggle with Israel ensures that there will never be a Palestinian state. Pursuing this line will only produce more misery and destruction for the Palestinians and they will not be able to destroy Israel.

  • pintortwo

    I know the thread is cold…
    .
    …but, Juan Cole on posted today on this topic:
    .
    President Barack Obama says he will be more honest than past presidents with Israel. Israel, a great friend of the United States and a country we like and admire on its merits, has nevertheless dug itself into a very deep hole with its determination to colonize the West Bank and to keep the Palestinians stateless. These policies are what is wrong, not anything essential about Israel or the Palestinians. Both peoples deserve to live in peace and with dignity and human rights and without fear of violence. But that ideal situation cannot come about unless Israel comes to terms with a simple fact: It will never be accepted in the region and will never really be secure, unless and until it stops depriving the Palestinians of their resources, their land, and their right to be citizens of a recognized state. (And, no, it cannot be Jordan, either). Not only is Israel hurting itself with this reckless drive to colonize others’ land and so rob them, but it is deeply harming US interests in the Muslim World. Why would a friend do that to us–harm itself and harm us?…

  • zened

    The Muslims say the conditions for peace are:

    1) We can live in your country but you cannot live in ours
    2) Give us your historic capital that we ethnically cleansed you from
    3) Accept two Muslim refugees into Israel for every Jew that lives there

    This would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state

    They also say: Death to all Jews

    So when anyone says the peace is for Israel to make they are being a bias Jew-hater. There is nothing the Jews can do except die as far as a majority of the Muslims are concerned.

    Anyone supporting Muslims in this view is continuing the work of Hitler and the Third Reich.

    Leave them alone; I want to be part of a species with a future. If you mutts go around killing the people who provide the most innovative science and medicine (Jews) what hope is there?

  • 53_3

    zened:
    .
    I’ve seen your type many, many times before.
    .
    You need to quit running afoul of Godwins’ law: ["Anyone supporting Muslims in this view is continuing the work of Hitler and the Third Reich."].
    .
    I suggest zened, that you read and learn. Godwin’s law is not just for Gentiles, it applies to you as well. You’re certainly not helping me distinguish your person from the foul dredge you’re standing in.
    .
    To invoke it in the name of racism, which you profoundly believe in, is a hideous disfigurement of all that is good for humanity.
    .
    Humane and human, you are neither, turd…

  • 53_3

    Let me pick apart the filth you’ve set out, zened:
    .
    “1) We can live in your country but you cannot live in ours”
    .
    Failure in the fact department. The “settlements” footprints are established on land whose immediate previous*1 owners were Palestinians. You are trying to make defending one’s home and land as you would*1 an act of antisemitism, which is in violation of Godwin’s law. This besides the fact that you are engaging in bald propaganda and racist rhetoric.

    “2) Give us your historic capital that we ethnically cleansed you from”
    .
    Israel is actively engaged in stealing the property of Palestinians in East Jerusalem.
    .
    “3) Accept two Muslim refugees into Israel for every Jew that lives there”
    .
    This is an outright lie. The right of return issue does not specify that at all.
    .
    “This would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state”
    .
    Now, I put to you zened -> This is the source of your racist agenda. You will eventually have to deal with realities, but keeping Israel Jewish may or may not be in the cards. Certainly, you should realize that your desire for pogroms to achieve this makes you beneath human.
    .
    “They also say: Death to all Jews”
    .
    And what do “settlers” teach? What does a map of Israel look like? What did those leaflets passed out to IDF troops in Gaza say? Hate happens in war, and Israel, especially judging by your filth is no slouch at it either!
    .
    “So when anyone says the peace is for Israel to make they are being a bias Jew-hater. There is nothing the Jews can do except die as far as a majority of the Muslims are concerned.”
    .
    zened, I would see your nearest psychiatrist and see if you cant do something about your paranoid schizophrenia.
    .
    “Anyone supporting Muslims in this view is continuing the work of Hitler and the Third Reich.”
    .
    Godwin’s law, again…
    .
    “Leave them alone; I want to be part of a species with a future. If you mutts go around killing the people who provide the most innovative science and medicine (Jews) what hope is there?”
    .
    First, we are people. Second, we are not killing Jews, third Jews are NOT a superior race, as you imply. You need to level your psyche, zened. Otherwise, I honestly don’t think you will ever be considered fit to live in civilized society.
    .
    NOTES:
    *1 I will Not accept religious claims.
    .
    That’s all for me.

  • neorationalist86

    USAONE-

    I find your argument on people strapping bombs to themselves as justification for disproportionate Israeli response especially disingenuous in light of the fact that there have been only a handful suicide attack inside Israel in the last 3 years. Suicide bombings were done away with by Hamas in December 2004. Fatah never employed the use of suicide attacks. Hezbollah never employed the use of suicide attacks. Furthermore, since 2000 there have been over 4,000 Palestinians deaths at the hands of Israeli forces, compared to approximately 1,000 Israeli deaths (B’Tselem, Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Palestinian Red Crescent Society, UN Commission on Human Rights). Supporters of Israel would like us to believe that innocent Israeli civilians are being murdered by the hundred daily, but this is simply not true.

  • neorationalist86

    ZENED-

    My post last night highlighting some of Israel’s malicious transgressions against the US was but a footnote to its complete history. I apologize for not spending two-decades listing every atrocity carried out by Israel. I put that together in 20 minutes. Those were some of the subversive acts against the US carried out by its so-called ally, Israel. The list is endless, however. Factor in massacres of Palestinian civilians, via bombing campaigns, direct infantry attacks, and refugee camp slaughters and it would take a life-time to compile. Since 2005 alone, over 1,700 hundred Palestinian deaths and over 6,000 injuries in the conflict. For Israel, the casualties are 117 deaths and just over 1,000 injuries. very even-handed wouldn’t you say. But I suppose since we are talking about a superior race here than the Israeli casualties are more important. The only blood that matters is Jewish blood.

  • themaverickformerlyknownasbasilbrush

    Zened, you’ve achieved the impossible – you make Ahmadinejad sound rational and honest, in comparison with your hate-filled, cowardly rants.What do you do for fun? Murder children in Gaza?

  • neorationalist86

    (1946)King David Hotel; Jewish extremist group Irgun carries out bombing on the hotel killing 92, wounding 58. Future PM Menachem Begin authorized the attack.
    (1947)Baldat al-Shaikh; attack by Jewish First Battalion of Palmakh and the Carmelie Brigade kills approximately 60 Arab civilians
    (1947)Yehida; Jewish terrorists disguised as British soldiers perpetrate attacks killing 7 Arabs, later that day 6 Arabs killed in Jerusalem and 6 more in Jaffa
    (1947)Khisas; Haganah terrorists machine gun 10 Arab civilians
    (1947)Qazaza; bombing kills 5 Arab children
    (1948)Semiramis Hotel; Haganah attack ordered by David Ben-Gurion kills over 20 civilians (Christians and Muslims) and wounds 16
    (1948)Dair Yasin; Irgun, Stern Gang, Haganah and Tsel orchestrate a massacre in the town of Dair Yesin, killing 250 men, women, and children
    (1948)Naser al-Din; entire village burned to the ground and all but 40 inhabitants are slaughtered
    (1948)Tantura; nearly 200 civilians murdered near Haifa
    (1948)Beit Daras; after surrounding the village Israeli soldiers murder the women and children who were sent out of the village to escape
    (1948)Damash Mosque; nearly 100 Muslims killed inside the Mosque then nearly 60,000 inhabitants of of Lyda and Ramble forced to leave their homes and flee to Ramallah
    (1948)Dawayma; Israeli army kills 100 women and children civilians near Hebron
    (1948)Houla; in retaliation for the village harboring a Lebanese militant group Israeli forces occupy the town and kill 82 civilians and destroy homes, the Lebanese group had already left the town
    (1948)Salah, Lebanon; 105 worshipers executed by Israeli troops
    (1951)Sharafat; Israeli soldiers crossed into W. Bank detonating a bomb that kills 10, including a family
    (1953)Qyiba; Ariel Sharon ordered to make an example in the small village, 56 homes destroyed, 67 civilians murdered
    (1956)Kafr Qasem; after altering the daily curfew for Arabs from 6PM to 5PM, Israeli militia execute 43 Arab workers returning from work past the curfew
    (1956)Khan Yunis; 275 civilians killed by IDF in response to militant activities in the area
    (1956)Gaza; IDF shells the center of Gaza City during mid-day traffic killing 60 civilians, injuring 103
    (1966)Al-Sammou; IDF destroys 125 homes, kills 18
    (1975)Aitharoun, Lebanon; IDF sets a bomb killing 9, wounding 23
    ((1975)Kawnin, Lebanon; IDF tanks runs over an occupied car killing family of 19
    (1976)Hanin, Lebanon; after siege and shelling, IDF troops storm village and kill 20 civilians
    (1976)Bint Jbeil, Lebanon; crowded market shelled by IDF killing 23, wounding 30 civilians
    (1978)Abbaseih, Lebanon; IDF aircraft bombs city Mosque killing 80
    (1978)Adloun, Lebanon; IDF opens fire on two vehicles killing civilians
    (1981)Saida, Lebanon; Israeli shelling kills 20, wounds 30
    (1981)Fakhani and Beirut, Lebanon; Israeli warplane raids residential neighborhoods killing 150, wounding 600
    (1982)Sabra and Shatila Refugee Camps; IDF forces surround Palestinian refugee camps and allow Lebanese Kata’ib Forces to assault the camp over a period of several days killing between 3,000 and 3,500 refugees. The IDF supplied the militants with weapons and prevented any refugees from fleeing
    (1984)Jibsheet, Lebanon; IDF helicopters fire on civilian crowds killing 7 and wounding 10
    (1984)Sohmor, Lebanon; IDF forces villagers into a local Mosque and open fire killing 13, wounding 12
    (1985)Seer al Garbiah, Lebanon; IDF troops kill 7 civilians seeking shelter in a building from IDF shelling
    (1985)Maaraka, Lebanon; IDF forces plant a bomb which is detonated while humitarian aid is being distributed there, killing 15
    (1985)Zrariah, Lebanon; IDF forces follow up shelling with an incursion into the town killing 22 women and children
    (1985)Homeen al-Tahta, Lebanon; IDF orders villagers into a school and then destroys the building killing 20
    (1985)Jibaa, Lebanon; IDF attacks village, kills 5, wounds 5
    (1985)Yohmor, Lenanon; IDF in civilian cars execute a drive-by shooting killing 10, including a family of 6
    (1986)Tiri, Lebanon; IDF forces attack, brutally assaulting civilians with knives, killing 4 wounding 79
    (1986)Al-Naher Al-Bared Palestinian Refugee Camp; IDF aircraft bombs the encampment killing 20, wounding 22
    (1987)Ain Al-Hillwee Refugee Camp; IDF jets bomb the camp killing 31, wounding 41. When attempts were made to reach the injured a second raid IDF killed 34 more
    (1990)Oyon Qara; An Israeli soldiers executed 7 laborers, resulting in a riot in which an additional 13 Palestinians were killed by IDF troops
    (1990) Al Aqsa Mosque; in response to a 200,000 person demonstration of Jewish civilians heading towards the Al Aqsa Mosque, Palestinians began to assemble at the Mosque, IDF forces open fire killing 23, wounding 850 others
    (1994)Ibrahimi Mosque; 350 worshipers wounded, 24 killed by Jewish gunmen inside the mosque including Baruch Goldstein, an IDF soldier
    (1994)Jabalia; Jewish undercover police open fire on Palestinian demonstrators killing 6, injuring 49
    (1994)Aramta, Lebanon; Jewish gunmen kill 2, wound 6
    (1994) Eretz Checkpoint, 11 Palestinians killed and 200 wounded at the Eretz Checkpoint, 21 Israelis were also injured in the incident
    (1994)Deir Al-Zahrani, Lebanon; Israeli warplanes kills 8, injures 17 civilians
    (1994)Nabitiyeh, Lebanon; IDF warplanes strike a school bus killing 4m wounding 10 children
    (1996)Sohmor, Lebanon; Israeli artillery targeted a civilian car carrying eight passengers, killing all of them
    (1996)Mnsuriah; IDF helicopter strikes a Red Crescent ambulance with 13 refugees inside
    (1996)Nabatyaih; 11 killed (including 7 children) and 10 injured when IDF shells a home
    (1996)Qana; attempting to pressure Hezbollah IDF mercilessly shells Lebanese civilians, killing 109 and wounding 116
    (1998)Trqumia; IDF troops open fire on workers in the West Bank killing 3 and wounding 2
    (1998)Janta; IDf warplanes bombs a home, killing a mother and her six children
    (1999)Beirut; 8 Lebanese civilians killed, 83 wounded in shelling
    (1999)Bekaa, Lebanon; IDF warplanes bomb a celebration killing 8 children, wounding 11 others
    (2006)Lebanon; in response to the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier on the northern border, Israel begins a merciless invasion of Lebanon which lasts 34 days. Over 1000 Lebanese civilians were killed in the conflict, while 43 Israelis civilians were killed by Hezbollah rockets in Northern Israel
    (2009)Gaza; Israel shells Gaza for 3 weeks in response to isolated rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza; 1,300 Palestinians killed, 1,800 injured. 13 Israelis were also killed.

    ****Given this brief overview of Israeli atrocities, I find your argument that the Jews, as a whole, more than any other ethnicity are peaceful to be patently false and reeks of a superiority complex. While Jews are no more violent that any other people, they to are quite capable of murder and mayhem. Human nature is human nature. The Jews are no exception.

  • zened

    53_31:34 and 1:51

    You are demonstrating the old truism: If you are not skilled enough to play the ball, play-the-player. You cannot provide a decent argument in this debate so you have just insulted everyone who you disagree with. Use of words like turd and filth, are entertaining, as they show that you have lost your temper, but they do nothing for the debate at hand. Let us see if we can pick any questions worth answering from your virulent and whining rant:

    You say: “Godwin’s law is not just for Gentiles, it applies to you”
    Clearly you have not been paying attention; I am a Gentile. Well apart from ranting about Godwin’s Law and applying the racist assumption that someone defending Jews HAS to be Jewish, your first comment makes no point whatsoever.

    According to you it is not racist to focus exclusively on wrongs done by Israel and to exclude the wrongs done by Muslims; which is what I have been arguing previously and what has you so hot under the collar. You are simply wrong. Nevertheless you can believe that the sun rotates around the earth if you wish. Quite clearly you have serious Judeophobic issues. Why else would you describe my argument (that many posters focus on ‘wrongs’ from just the Israeli side is by any definition racist) as neither Human nor Humane? “The lady doth protest too much, methinks” (Hamlet Act 3 Scene 2 222-230) (The lady being you).

    You impose racist Exceptionalism on Jews and Israel. By any definition this is racist of you. You can keep on thinking you are a great guy. I am sure many SS guards in world war two looked in the mirror in the morning and thought they were nice people too.

    Your second comment starts with some more ranting: Your mind seems slightly mono-dimensional; you rely on this Godwin’s Law as if it were gravity, when in fact it is just a fallible informal social-science adage, it is not even a theory! I think you need to read up on Godwin’s Law. In the quote you mention there is no talk of Hitler or Nazis:

    The reality is that Muslims prevent Jews living in their countries and yet expect to live in Israel, which is a Jewish state. Your rant says nothing else.

    Jews built Jerusalem and have historically been driven from their capital city and then returned several times. It was the Muslims who ethnically cleansed Jews from there. There is a certain historical justice to Jews returning to their capital. After all Median, Mecca and innumerable former Jewish cities are now Muslim and the Jews do not expect to return there, they just want their capital back.

    With regard to population you dispute that Arabs outnumber Jews around 2:1. Here are the numbers. Remember that Hamas, supported by the majority of palestinians wants no Israel. Hence with these numbers Jews would be outnumbered 2:1 in Israel if the refugees were allowed to return. So called Palestinian refugees around 4 million, Gazan population 1.5 million west bank 2.5 million total around 8 million. Officially there are ten million palestinians
    http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/040102/2004010206.html
    There are 5 million Jews in Israel: Approximately two Palestinians to every Jew. You are simply a fool for questioning such widely accepted facts. Maybe you are so stupid that you cannot divide 5 into 10?

    Despite whinging about being called a racist (which you obviously are), you now accuse me of the same, proving Godwin’s Law (lol @ u). You then falsely accuse me of wanting to do pogroms to keep Israel Jewish, once again you prove Godwin’s Law (lol @ u again). I never said anything about pogroms, reference where I did or shut up. I just said Jordan should absorb the palestinians refugees like Israel absorbed the 850,000 Jewish refugees. Wait a minute! You do not even talk about the Jews expelled from oil rich Muslim countries. More Judeophobic Exceptionalism from 53_3.

    So when you accuse me of an outright lie as you falsely cry about the refugee situation it is you who is either too stupid or too racist to recognise the truth. There goes another flock of pigs flying by!

    You at least do not deny that the major palestinian parties and Muslims organisations and several states say: Death to the Jews. So you can accept the truth sometimes!

    Then you say: “I would see your nearest psychiatrist and see if you cant do something about your paranoid schizophrenia.” Once again you have nothing to say except generalised completely off-topic insults. If you want to be taken seriously on debate forums try to keep your little temper, you sound pathetic. Nothing to say of substance so you just accuse the person beating you in debate of mental illness. lol @u again.

    You quote me: “Anyone supporting Muslims in this view is continuing the work of Hitler and the Third Reich.”

    Now you say this is Godwin’s Law. However what Godwin did not say is that accusations of Judeophobic racism were never true. When you read the final quote in the Hamas Charter Article 7 you will see it calls for death for ALL Jews: This is indeed what Hitler wanted. So in fact it is correct to say what I did. Thank you for pointing this out to readers again, it is important that people realise that Hamas, (Hezbollah, Iran, Al Quaeda and others) are calling for the murder of ALL Jews in the world, just like the Third Reich did.
    http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
    Further it proves my point that you are Judeophobic that you attempt to argue that this demonstrable reality of genocidal policy by Muslims is in fact a lie described by Godwin’s Law. You are so confused you are arguing against yourself now!

    You quote me: “Jews are NOT a superior race, as you imply”. You may infer what you want but I implied no such thing. I just stated a fact that per capita Jews provide the world more PhDs, Nobel Prizes, Scientific breakthroughs and new Medicine than any other nation. When one looks at innovations coming from Muslim countries the achievements of the Jews is so startling that you could be forgiven for inferring that they are superior. You can say they are superior, I would not choose to do so.

    You say: “I honestly don’t think you will ever be considered fit to live in civilized society.” Well sorry to tell you this but I am doing fine, but if you mean I would not be able to live in a Muslim country I probably agree. However I do not regard Muslim countries as free, egalitarian and democratic and therefore civilized.

    Perhaps with all this ranting about turds, filth, mental illness, paranoia, schizophrenia and the need for a psychiatrist, you are really transferring your own problems onto a commentator (moi) who seems to be getting the better of your rabid racism here. Chill out puppy do not burst a blood vessel!

    Lol @u again. Thank you for such an easy roasting! You just got flamed. At least neorationalist has some arguments to provide, although they are just anti-Israeli he does not seem to like anti Muslim or anti-Arab reality. You however have nothing to say except to betray your own weakness by trying to transfer them onto others.

    One could almost call your posts spam, as there is nothing of consequence to answer in them. You have been entertaining though; you have us all rolling on the floor laughing. Keep it coming please. Give some more insults to show you have completely lost the plot. You have just made a complete fool of yourself in front of everybody. Hysterical.

    Quite pathetic: Grade F.

  • neorationalist86

    Might I add that not only are these atrocities carried out, but they are to an extent glorified by Israeli right-wingers such as Ariel Sharon and current PM Benjamin Netanyahu. In 2006, Netanyahu attended a commemoration of the 1946 terrorist bombing of the King David Hotel where a commemorative plaque was placed in honor of Israel’s ‘freedom fighters.’ I find it intriguing that while Israel dismisses any Arab violence against Jews as terrorism and vehemently rejects any notion of them being ‘freedom fighters’ the likes of Netanyahu hold firm that their ‘freedom fighters,’ such as Irun, Stern Gang, and Haganah are not terrorists. Does anyone else find this to be the epitome of hypocrisy? Furthermore, immediately following the attacks on the US on 9/11/2001 Netanyahu was available with the statement that the attack would ‘be good for US-Israeli relations.’ Of course he immediately backtracked and stated that the events were also ‘tragic.’ Hmmm, nice to know where Netanyahu’s priorities lies. The only blood that matters in Jewish blood.

  • zened

    Themaverickformerlyknownasbasilbrush 3:18

    You whine: “Zened, you’ve achieved the impossible – you make Ahmadinejad sound rational and honest, in comparison with your hate-filled, cowardly rants.What do you do for fun? Murder children in Gaza?”

    Again is there any specific issue you can point out? No so you play-the-player as you do not like the truth.

    Ahmadinejad says that by causing a Holocaust the Hidden Imam will arrive. He says that there are no Homosexuals in Iran. He says that the Holocaust did not happen but that the palestinians have paid the price for the Holocaust (serious feat of tautology). Perhaps you can point out precisely what I have said that is more irrational than this?

    I think you just proved 53_3’s mantra of Godwin’s Law with your comment about killing children.

    Again this is someone who does not like the truth ranting at a poster explaining reality to them. A comment with no a single point made on-topic. Laughable.

    I know there are many out there who just want Israel and its populations to die. Sorry to disappoint you but it is not likely to happen.

  • zened

    neorationalist86

    You repeat this blood-libel on several comments:

    “The only blood that matters in Jewish blood.”

    This demonstrates your Exceptionalism and Judeophobic racism.

    There is no debate here. You and the other Jew haters are just content to ignore Muslim crimes and your intent is not to debate but to smear Jews to de-legitimise their county in preparation for their genocide. Just like the Third Reich.

    This is why there is no point feeding you troll. Yesterday you said Israelis killed more Americans than Muslims, I demonstrated that was a lie. So you have shifted onto how many Arabs are killed by Israelis, without discussing how many Israelis are killed by Arabs or dealing with the reality that 5 million Jews are fighting for survival against 1.6 Billion Muslims.

    The death of 1 Jew for 1 Muslim would mean the defeat of the Jews and Israel very quickly.

    The proportionality of deaths must be seen in the light of the proportionality of populations.

    The Jews are not calling for the murder of every last Muslim. The Muslims are calling for the death of every last Jew; then it will be the turn of Americans (crusaders to die).

    The author here has certainly encouraged all the rabid sub-human genocidal and aspiring Jew killers to this forum.

    There is no debate just a hate festival. I have flamed the racists to demonstrate their lies. I am off out to have some beers with my mates now. Why don’t you Jew haters rub each other to orgasm and see who can be the most one-sided bias and hateful to Jews?

    I think 53_3 will win.

  • neorationalist86

    You are a liar and malicious. I never said Israel killed more Americans than Muslims have! NEVER! I pointed out occurrences where Israel was responsible for American deaths, that is all. As for your disgusting argument that Israelis must kill disproportionately due to the ratio of Muslims to Jews in the world, I am at a loss for words. You are perpetuating the lies that all Muslims are enemies of Israel, which is patently false! You are disgusting and you are a racist. You fear Islam because of its numbers and you have sadly been utterly and completely brainwashed by Israeli propaganda. It is people like you who continue the cycle of violence by leaving all semblance of rationality at the door and accusing anyone who dares criticize Israel as a Jew-hating Judeaphobe! You just keep making that argument and the world will become truly anti-Jew. There is only so long people can tolerate being maliciously blacklisted for perfectly legitimate criticism of a corrupt government before they will end up hating Jews. Your elementary arguments, manipulation of people’s words, and your insistence that your argument is superior thus everyone else is racist is wearing thin. Be gone with you bugger. I haven’t the patience nor the humility to continue to subject myself to your irrelevant and hateful diatribes.

  • zened

    neorationalist86 4:54

    As I predicted you just keep the hate flowing.

    Did you make any new points? No.

    Just more insults.

    If you try hard enough you might look as stupid as 53_3

    The point you miss is that you JUST criticise Israel you make no mention of the attacks on it by Muslims; hence you earn the title racist. Muslims already hate Israel they say it everyday, so your little threats mean nothing to them or me. You and 53_3 hate Jews already you just spent hours spewing hatred at them in this forum.

    You say: “Be gone with you bugger” (Is that what you do?)

    Nice!

    You are a lying hypocrite in light of what you claimed earlier:

    “I will refrain from personal attacks on you because I do not see the benefit that this dialogue would gain from such an assault.” (12:08 2 June)

    I think this confirms that you have lost the argument; you are now spamming insults like 53_3. The two of you must really get-off on this Jew hatred thing.

    However there is nothing in this latest comment except the most general attempt at verbal abuse. I am satisfied that you have shown your true nature.

  • drexpert

    Each of the houses built in the West Bank is completely justified. After Israel won the war in 1948 (the war of partition) Jews from dozens of Arab countries were forcibly eviceted from theor property and busnisses.

    So, in fact the Arab are completely responsible for Israel needing these new settlements. The Jews had their original mhomes in the middle-east stolen, and these new homestreads are theri direct replacement.

    The Arabs have no legitimate complaint to theses new homs as theri need was driven by Jewish expulsion.

    Jeffrey
    drexpert@xemaps.com

  • neorationalist86

    Dr. Expert (hah laughable)

    You have no idea what you’re talking about, do some history. The transgressions went both ways in evicting people from there homes. So nothing is justified in the contemporary violence.

    Zened-

    I have said it before and I will say it again. There is no need for me to criticize terrorist attacks because the whole world already condemns them. I am here to bring light to serious international violations perpetrated by a democratic government, Israel.

    You haven’t made any points here the entire time. You have used personal attacks, pervasive labeling, and blindly biased justifications for Israeli aggression. You claim that I am a racist for only citing Israeli attacks, yet you yourself have only cited Muslim incidents. By your own accord, you are racist as well. So either your argument holds no water or we are both racist, you against Arabs and me against Jews. Which is it?

  • 53_3

    Looks to me like I might have irritated zened a bit, doesn’t it.
    .
    I think my comments can stand up to scrutiny, if anyone one wants to walk through your tired tirade, zened.
    .
    Most of it’s trash, and you know it. drexpert is just plain not.
    .
    I’ve enjoyed this memorable opportunity to poke you in the eye with a sharp stick. As for me being antisemitic, take your tired claims elsewhere. The spew you’ve directed at me tells me I hit home, MOT.
    .
    I would venture that drexpert would scream bloody murder and spare no effort to avail himself of the second amendment should the armed forces show up to evict him from his home*, such is his hypocrisy. He can sling this spear with no fear whatsoever. Add to that you’re no expert on the ME
    .
    *As a matter of fact, such an act is unconstitutional here.

  • 53_3

    neorationalist86:
    .
    They are a load of self-righteous sanctimonious religious fanatic racists, ain’t they?
    .
    You notice their tactics are to spew miles of trash? They are hoping to tire anyone out wishing to debate them by the sheer weight of their rising ooze.
    .
    They spew two dozen lies, found their vitriol on that, then try to force any reasonable human being to waste an enormous amount of time chasing down each one…

  • 53_3

    zened:
    .
    Did you realize that God has a special place in hell reserved for the likes of you?
    .
    Try to find the list of names under this heading:
    .
    Those who invoke God’s name to promote sin
    .
    Like the Microsoft slogan, I’ll venture this question:
    .
    Where do you want to go today?

  • 53_3

    Joe:
    .
    I want to thank you again for your very interesting assessment of the situation. I’m hoping Obama can pull this off, but the truth be told, he will have, in the end, two choices:
    .
    1. Give up
    .
    2. Force Israel to begin taking measures to promote peace. Despite some of these commenters’ sentiments, I believe it is possible.

  • neorationalist86

    53_3…

    I must say that as a conservative Republican I have been, and mostly remain, skeptical of Obama’s ability. However, I must say I am pleasantly surprised with his handling of Israel thus far. With the likes of Rahm Emanuel (a former citizen of Israel and son of Benyamin Emanuel, a radical member of Irgun and known racist) and Hillary Clinton (the Clintons have been avid supporters of Israel) I did not have much faith in the Obama Admins desire to take Israel to task. Thus far, though, I am more optimistic based on the specific rhetoric his Administration has used in regard to the settlement issue. Its a bit more heavy handed than previous administrations. Remember the Fourth Geneva Convention explicitly “forbids an occupying power from transferring any parts of its civilian population into territories seized by military force.” However,alleviation of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is another piece of this debacle. Additionally, there is the question of a solution for the 4.5 million Palestinian refugees residing outside of Israel and Palestine, many of whom were forced from their homes. Then there is the question of control of Jerusalem, which was to be an internationally administered city under the original 1947 partition plan.
    Additionally, there is the issue of the acquisition of lands seized by military conquest. Amazingly, 88 U.N. Security Council Resolutions and over 300 U.N. General Assembly Resolutions have been passed condemning Israeli actions between 1955 and 1992, few of which have been adhered to by Israel. (return of Sinia to Egypt, removal of settlers in Gaza, and an end to the 18 year occupation of Lebanon being the 3 significant times Israel complied).
    I fear that short of a complete embargo on Israel complete with economic sanctions, there will be no end to this Israeli imperialism. This means US must cease its $6 billion per year aid program to Israel, as well as military equipment, as must the other Western nations who aid Israeli. Trade embargoes must be put in place, linked to specific conditions and timetables. These things will never happen, however, without overwhelmingly massive pressure by the citizens of western nations on their governments. Israel has never received more than a harsh rebuke for its actions. It is time that rhetoric was put into substantive and firm action!

  • neorationalist86

    The UN has just recently requested $11 million in compensation from Israel for damages inflicted on UN buildings in Gaza during Israel’s January offensive. A preliminary report has also found Israel responsible in 6 out of the 9 reported incidents of casualties sustained at UN buildings, where civilians were being sheltered. The Arab League has also just finished an investigation alleging that there is enough evidence to move forward against both Israel and Palestinian militants for war crimes committed by way of indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas resulting in innocent deaths. I wonder when the last time Israel issued a report finding themselves guilty of anything other than a ‘mistake?’ Bravo to the Arab League for illustrating unbiased judgment in its investigation of the conflict.

  • sacredh

    Wow. I’m impressed by the length of these arguments. Anybody care to provide a synopsis in 100 words or less?

  • neorationalist86

    Surely, Israel is in violation of the 4th Geneva Convention by transporting civilian populations into occupied territories (West Bank), has illegally expanded it borders beyond the 1967 Israeli borders via military annexation in the Golan Heights (from Syria), Sheba’a Farms (from Lebanon), and portions adjacent to the Gaza Strip and West Bank, Israel has absorbed Jerusalem within its borders and considers it the national capital despite the 1947 UN Partition Plan explicitly stating that Jerusalem is to be an internationally administered zone, Israel continues to bockade Gaza and control the degree to which humanitarian aid is distributed as well confiscating millions in US aid that was destined for Gaza, it has also diverted the Jordan River away from the West Bank and into Israel resulting in the barren terrain that now covers the West Bank. All this in addition to extreme disproportionate use of force against Palestinians and Lebanese (2006, in three weeks of fighting Israel killed 1000 Lebanese over half of whom were civilian, while Israel lost 43; 2009, Israel bombards Gaza resulting in over 1,300 Palestinian deaths and 6,000 wounded, while Israel losses are 13), finally Israel has engaged in numerous acts of international espionage and ‘black flag’ operations perpetrated by Israeli intel agents posing as radical Arab terrorists to subvert international support for Arabs and solidify its own alliance with the US. And people wonder why Palestinians are such an angry people. Sorry, 100 words was impossible to adhere to.

  • sacredh

    neo: Thanks for trying though. I did read through both pages of the thread and learned more than I already knew. Thanks for your time and effort.

  • formerlyjames

    I missed it until now, but I am impresssed by this thread. As an anti-ziolist, I thank you all.

  • formerlyjames

    ziolist? sorry. you know what I mean.

  • sacredh

    It’s late and I’m semi-trashed. I knew what you meant though. Ziolist does sound like you’re able to play the ziolin.

  • neorationalist86

    I know that Zened will be back shortly to spew more attacks on me because of my “Judeaphobia,” however, the intelligent posters here see that for what it is. I will say, in his defense, that the Palestinians are not entirely innocent in this conflict. The use of suicide attacks specifically targeting civilians is morally reprehensible. Over the years since the partition of Palestine, Israel’s neighbors have started their fair share of wars, which Israel has used to justify its expansions. However, it must be said that although attacking Israel was neither intelligent nor condoned, the purpose was to regain land taken by military force by Israel (with the exception of the 1948 War). Thus there was some justification in these provocations. Israel hes expanded more than three times its initial size through these conflicts. That annexation of land is the root cause of the turmoil we see today.

  • neorationalist86

    I will add that the Palestinians are not innocent in this conflict either. The use of suicide attacks against civilians by Hamas and several other smaller factions is morally reprehensible and has caused much of the world to ignore the plight of Palestinians. Israels’ neighboring Arab states, too, have caused their share of conflict by attacking Israel. However, with the exception of the 1948 war (which was in retaliation for atrocities committed against Arabs in Israel) these wars were all launched in an effort to regain land that Israel had militarily annexed in previous wars. Each war resulted in an Israeli victory and a larger Israel which in turn resulted in yet another war launched by Arabs to regain those territories. The Arabs cannot be held entirely responsible for provoking these wars since they were just wars, however, they were not strategically sounds. Thus the turmoil continues, and will continue until Israel withdraws to the pre-1967 border. For all the Israeli rhetoric that all the Arabs want to wipe off Israel off the map, the overwhelming majority or Arab nations and most Palestinians themselves have conceded that peace is sustainable if Israel withdraws to its original borders. While Hamas is continuously attacked as being closed to the idea of negotiations, they sent an envoy to the EU in 2005 offering peace for return of lands, yet European officials, at the request of Israel, refused to hear their proposal. So, Israel is truly the last obstacle to peace. The world is waiting…

  • neorationalist86

    I apologize for the redundancy of my last two posts. The first time it did not post right away so I re-wrote it, but elaborated on some points. But, in fact, they both ended up posting…

  • prodigalson316

    From the Hamas charter, article 11 – “This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Muslims have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Muslims consecrated these lands to Muslim generations till the Day of Judgement.” So it’s ok to conquer lands and hold them forever, even when defeated in battle, unless you are the Israelis? I am an observer here, with no real stake in the outcome, other than a peaceful planet to raise my children. I hate to see the holy land destroyed by this childish fight. But from where I stand, I see a religion that is built upon violence and warfare (Islam) being given equal treatment to that of peace and love (Christianity). The followers of Christianity aren’t perfect, but our founder never took the life of anyone, yet was put to death in a most cruel way. But it was for that purpose that He was sent to this world, so all sin could be forgiven. What did Mohammed do? Put the sword to all who opposed him. I take Jesus as my Lord, until death.

  • http://mfengshui.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/obama-and-the-arab-world-can-he-meet-expectations/ Obama and the Arab World: Can He Meet Expectations? « Feng Shui – Obama Palm

    [...] Crazy Arabs, Crazy Jews Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Poll: Arabs Love Obama, Share His Hate Of The U.S.Obama Cum Laude: What His Commencement Speeches Reveal About Him and His Mo…Topic A — Obama in Egypt and His Speech to the Muslim WorldObama “Has To Walk The Talk” [...]

  • neorationalist86

    Prodigal…Hamas does not speak for all Muslims.

  • sacredh

    There’s also the little matter of the Crusades. Peace and love…it was’t. Rape and pillaging in the name of The Lord doesn’t excuse the actions.

  • http://www.willtotruth.com/2009/06/03/obamas-interference-in-israeli-politics/ Obama’s “interference” in Israeli politics — will to truth

    [...] settlement expansions that the entire world recognizes as illegal – what Time’s Joe Klein accurately calls “taking territory that the rest of the world, without exception, considers Palestinian” [...]

  • http://www.drasties.com/?p=7657 Drasties – Dutch on the World – World on the Dutch

    [...] settlement expansions that the entire world recognizes as illegal – what Time’s Joe Klein accurately calls “taking territory that the rest of the world, without exception, considers Palestinian” [...]

  • neorationalist86

    COPIED FROM WILL TO TRUTH WEBSITE:
    * There are currently 121 Israeli settlements and approximately 102 Israeli outposts built illegally on Pales-tinian land occupied by Israel in 1967. All of these settlements and outposts are illegal under international law and have been condemned by numerous United Nations Security Council resolutions. Israeli outposts are considered illegal under Israeli law.

    * These settlements and outposts are inhabited by a population of some 462,000 Israeli settlers. 191,000 Israelis are living in settlements around Jerusalem and a further 271,400 are further spread throughout the West Bank. The settler population has grown consistently between 4-6% per year over the last two decades, a much higher rate of growth than Israeli society as a whole (1.5%).

    * Approximately 385,000 settlers in 80 settlements will be located between the Separation Wall and the Green Line if Israel holds to projected plans.

    * In 2008, amidst the ‘settlement freeze’ agreed upon in the Annapolis framework, tenders for new settlement building increased by 550% from 2007. Actual settlement construction has increased by 30% since the launching of the new round of peace talks. Settlement building around Jerusalem has increased by a factor of 38.

    * A total of 9,000 further housing units have been approved in East Jerusalem, and approximately 2,600 new housing units are being built east of the Separation Wall, comprising 55% of all settlement construction activity.

    * Settlements are built on less than 3 percent of the area of the West Bank. However, due to the extensive network of settler roads and restrictions on Palestinians accessing their own land, Israeli settlements dominate more than 40 percent of the West Bank.

  • prodigalson316

    Neorational, if that is all you can say, that Hamas doesn’t represent all Muslims, then you by default agree with the rest of my post. The Hamas article 11 pulls directly from Sharia law, do you accept Sharia law to judge you and all your loved ones? Or do you believe in the Western judicial tradition? As long as war is used to solve disputes between nations, whether one side conquers or the other, the winner determines the rules. Unless the US will go in with force to remove the settlers, or a new government in Israel is elected on a platform to remove them, they will not leave. I am not saying it is right, but for you to say it is wrong and not condemn Hamas is the height of hypocrisy. Please be logical in your statements.

  • neorationalist86

    prodigal…

    Sharia Law does not call for the destruction of Israel, it calls for the protection of Muslim lands. Regardless of your views, the fact remains that since approximately 1000AD, Palestine has been controlled by an overwhelming Muslim majority. Not until the 1947 Partition Plan was there any significant Jewish population, and since Israel’s conception they have expanded the size of their country by way of force and military occupation. Now, you ask if I am ruled by Western judicial tradition. The answer is yes. Modern western law dictates the illegitimacy of conquest by force; no longer do the spoils of war go to the victor; no longer is the victor entitled to territory. So, by your own acceptance of western law you must condemn Israel’s illegal expansions. This does not acquit Hamas or similar organizations in their wanton disregard for innocent life, nor does it suggest that Israel is the sole aggressor. However, western international law does not support Israel over the Palestinians, who I may add have a sizable Christian community that has been devastatingly affected by Israeli expansion and subjugation as well…
    .
    Now moving on to the interests of the United States, I would argue that the US is in no way obligated to support Israel. The special relationship has become both a burden and a liability to the US and its own national security interests continue to be jeopardized by the lopsided support for Israel. I strongly implore you to read “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy” by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt. It is lengthy (83 pages) but it is extraordinarily insightful and may enlighten you as to the implications of Israeli policy.

    The link: http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf

  • remembrence94

    The Jewish peoples that inhabitted modernday ‘Israel’ Migrated to Egypt. They were than captured and enslaved. They than escaped and stole much of egypts gold and treasures(as proved with a previous failed attempt at sueing egypt for enslaving the jewish people centuries ago).The Jewish people than migrated back to modern day’israel’ settig up a temporary empire that did not last too long. Whenn Islam emerged most Jews that were in modern day ‘Israel’ converted and the others stayed alogside the Muslims. That was the last time there was ever a jewish ‘country’ so to speak. After the reconquista in spain Jews AND Muslims were prosecuted and expelled from the Iberian peninsula and most went to Morroco yet another time Muslims and Jews lived peacefully together. It was so until the holocuast was over that when all the jews went to palestine , with the help of the british. Unfortunately the british actually thought they had the power to decide areas where the jews could have their own ‘jewish state’. This sense of superiority was seen in the colonization of the Americas as well. In this sense the jews have also seemed to have adopted this “superior to all others” state of mind.

    All Information Based On Factual Evidence.

  • remembrence94

    I beleive the Jews And The Muslims can and should be able to live in peace as they have countless times before if the jews would releive themselves of this sense of superiority.

  • hassan1410

    Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314 in current day Israel, Gaza and West Bank. Immigration to the region begin to pick up with the promise of a Jewish homeland, yet by 1948 the ratio in this partitioned land was still 3:1 Arab to Jew. The UN Partition Plan allocated 55% of that land to the new Jewish state, yet only 1/3 of the population there was Jewish. Hence Arab hostility.

    دردشة
    شات

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