George Tiller Murdered

Reposted from below but this Andrew Sullivan post is worth the read, I think.
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This illustrates why I say not shocking.
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http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/05/a-far-right-assassination.html
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CABLE NEWS RACE
THURS., MAY 29, 2009
FOXNEWS OREILLY 3,526,000

This is a tragedy. Dr. Tiller had been shot before in both arms and now the lunatics finally murdered him. He provided a service to the public at great risk to himself and now he’s dead. This country needs more brave men like him.

Amy Sullivan post valiantly trying to see both sides of the debate in 7…6…5…4…3…2…

What does Amy drive? If this doesn’t make her post, nothing will.

Yeah, Operation Rescue is simply shocked. If you yell, fire in a crowded theatre –who could guessthat the feeble minded would do something dangerous and stupid?

Scumbags. They will be held accountable –in this life, and the next.

“The clinic was bombed in June 1986, and was severely vandalized earlier this month. According to the Associated Press, his lawyer said wires to security cameras and outdoor lights were cut and that the vandals also cut through the roof and plugged the buildings’ downspouts. Rain poured through the roof and caused thousands of dollars of damage in the clinic. Tiller reportedly asked the FBI to investigate the incident.”
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Cut wires to security cameras? I work in a secure room and if the security or phone wire gets cut the police are on the way. Odd that doesn’t appear to have happened here.

This is the sort of thing that will happen when people are encouraged to believe that those who disagree with them aren’t really human (or “American” or “Christian” or whatever fits in with the wingnuttery du jour). O’Reilly’s going to be milking this for weeks.

Thanks for posting this, KT.
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It’s incredibly upsetting.
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But, in the interests of fairness –and we must always be fair– this:
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Today, abortion opponents finally succeeded.
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is not a proper characterization.

We don’t know who did this. We don’t know that “abortion opponents” did this, and to cast that allegation so widely as to include every other abortion opponent in the description of the perpetrators of this sick “success” is wrong.
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I am truly livid right now, KT. Unlike Barack Obama, I am thoroughly uninterested in a “dialog” with abortion rights opponents over “coming together to reduce abortions”. I suspect privacy rights opponents of being just that –not abortion rights opponents, but privacy rights opponents. I am not inclined to view their arguments in good faith. I think that many are anti-woman, and many are essentially proponents of anti-pluralist, anti-Bill of Rights, theocratic government.
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None of this means that I can immediately blame “abortion opponents” in general for this crime, and, in my opinion, neither should you, KT.
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…Because we are above all fair.

Yglesias – follow his provided link, also:
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http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/05/a-kind-of-terrorism-that-works.php

SZ: You are right. Am going to add “it appears.”

[...] from the MSM, Karen Tumulty at Swampland at [...]

Yeah that was quite a stretch KT.
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“Coming out here in front of the clinic used to be considered outrageous,” Hill says as the cars go in and out of the clinic’s parking lot. “Now it’s old hat. Rescue used to be outrageous. Now it’s old. The next thing will be the use of force. Right now it’s the focus of a lot of attention, but pretty soon it will be old hat and we’ll wonder why we didn’t think of it sooner.”
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http://www.feministing.com/archives/007218.html

It appears they abortion opponents bombed his clinic in 1986 but..
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“The clinic was bombed in June 1986, and was severely vandalized earlier this month. According to the Associated Press, his lawyer said wires to security cameras and outdoor lights were cut and that the vandals also cut through the roof and plugged the buildings’ downspouts. Rain poured through the roof and caused thousands of dollars of damage in the clinic. Tiller reportedly asked the FBI to investigate the incident.

No arrests were made in the 1986 bombing.
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No arrests so who can really say?

“Women and Families are intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, and ethically competent to struggle with complex health issues and come to decisions that are appropriate for themselves”
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This is the kind of thinking that will get someone assassinated in 2009?
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No, we don’t know the circumstances, but I heard a fascinating interview with David Niewart a few days ago about his new book which came to mind as soon as I began reading KT’s post.
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http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=how_hate_groups_went_mainstream

O’Reilly’s going to be milking this for weeks.
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Maybe, maybe not. He’s been leading the outrage brigades over Tiller for years now — just search their names together on Youtube for a sample — and he might want to softpedal it now for fear of looking like he incited someone to kill the man.
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Or not. O’Reilly seems to be psychotic.

From what I understand they have good leads on the murderer. I predict he will be found soon. I wouldn’t be surprised if he takes his own life.

O’Reilly seems to be psychotic.
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That was my (tacit) working assumption.

Can someone please tell me how you can be pro-life and blow someone to kingdom come in their church at the same time?

Rainbow –
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The logic runs something like “It’s not murder if you murder a murderer.” See also “Hussein, Bush’s War of Choice Against Saddam”.

It doesn’t make sense, does it?

I keep thinking about his wife sitting in the choir, hearing a disturbance, realizing what’s happened… I can’t imagine.

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None of this means that I can immediately blame “abortion opponents” in general for this crime, and, in my opinion, neither should you, KT.
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…Because we are above all fair.

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I can blame quite a few “pro-lifers” for the rhetoric that makes these crimes sadly frequent, s.z.
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And if your point is just that we do not know yet the motivation of the perp, then I predict you will not have long to wait. If the motive were theft, for instance, then a church full of people would not be an ideal audience.
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kevin – Knowing O’Reilly, he’s going to distance himself from the actual murder, feign outrage at those who believed he might have incited this kind of possible violent behavior….but still be on the record as glad the guy is dead as a message to other abortion doctors.
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formerlyrainbow68 – It’s called rank hypocrisy, and you see a lot of it in the outrage of the religious right, especially on things like the Death Penalty, War, and the whole abortion protests. The fact that this guy stained a house of God is probably lost on him in his sincere belief that he has done “God’s work”

Tiller’s “clinic” is a murder mill. If the money is proffered, the abortion is performed. It matters not if the baby is viable. I’m no christian, or religious in any way, but murder is murder. Agnostics and atheists are just as capable of acknowledging this as those who identify themselves as being religious. Killing an 8 month old, unborn baby is certainly a choice. It is the choice to commit murder. The world is a better place without George Tiller.

What stuart said.
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I think I’ve mentioned before that my mom is pro-life. It’s unfair to hold everyone who opposes abortion responsible for the crimes of fringe psychotics, or to suggest that most pro-lifers would see Tiller’s murder as a “success.”

I don’t understand how the fact that the killing happened in church can be lost on anyone is beyond me. Everyone there, old and very young have a mental image they will never be able to erase. Their church, although still special to them, is now the place where someone was gunned down.

Breaking News: Suspect is in custody. Maybe y’all already knew that, I just found out.

The world has too many people. Organized religion is comprised of zombie-like ditto heads who believe in fairy tales. Anything is OK as long as they are getting closer to Jesus. Belief, remember, is the adherence to a spiritual philosophy that cannot be proven by facts. In other words… my belief in the tooth fairy is just as logical. So…. these are the people we are dealing with. Insane, basically. For years and years Jesus was the son of god. Now, just to add some drama, Jesus IS god. So who was he talking to when he was on the cross? Garden of Gethsemane? Was Jesus schizophrenic? There are times when I believe in god, but not the god of the ‘punishers’, the starters of wars, those genocidal maniacs who are supposedly part of a ‘flock of sheep’ who follow the lord. They are more like a pack of wolves.

The next time you hear someone say “By any means necessary,” remember – they’re condoning this.

@rose83 –Have they repudiated those who put out the rhetoric? If you allow people to yell “Fire” in a crowded theatre, people die. If you countenance people calling for the murder of people, people will be murdered. See the history of the KKK and lynchings in America.

So if you ally yourself with those who say such things, you are going to have to put up with the mud splashing on you, when someone takes them at their word.

KT:
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In my opinion, the proper characterization would be something like:
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Today, it appears that at least one anti-abortion domestic terrorist finally succeeded.

I fully agree with sz that the characterization of the whole “pro-life” movement by this tragic event is irrational.
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I often think of the late great Barry Goldwater’s statement that extremism in defense of…(liberty, antiabortion, pro-god, homophobia, enter your own cause here) is no vice, moderation in pursuit of (justice, or enter your own cause here), is no virtue.
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I am pro-choice, yet draw a line at late term abortion (as KT describes when life is viable outside of the woumb) except in extraordinary circumstances. I am opposed to murder in all instances, and pro-lifers would surely challenge me on that in regard to any abortion. I would respond that sperm and egg cells are life but ejected by means of natural bodily functions.
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I am saddened by this murder. I hope the culprit is found, tried, and put in a cell for the rest of their natural life. Not killed literally, but only figuralively.

“Belief, remember, is the adherence to a spiritual philosophy that cannot be proven by facts. In other words… my belief in the tooth fairy is just as logical”
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Roger that. Though I’d sub “faith” for “belief.” I believe in evolution, for which there is evidence, and my belief is the result of critical thinking.
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Merriam-Webster:
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Faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof
vs.
Belief: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

The fact that Dr. Tiller did many late term abortions may have been related to the fact that he was one of the few in the country who had not been frightened out of doing them. I don’t understand why it is assumed that these are frivilous and done lightly. I could list many, many reasons why after a great deal of thought and medical consultations, that would be the best option, but never a good one.
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Again, so much deep concern for pre-birth, after – not so much.

You guys are unbelievable. It’s not a religious issue. It’s a human life . I dare any of you to prove that any step of development in the human being can be eliminated from the moment of conception without destroying that person’s ability to survive. All of us alive today were there at one time . Would we consider ourselves disposable matter in the womb or would we want the choice to be able to live? Has your life been worth the effort of your mother to allow you to come to full birth? Who the hell are any of you to say which life is “viable” and which life is disposable? Have any of you ever seen a dead fetus after a partial birth abortion? They are perfect little baby bodies that have had the life sucked out of them and dismembered to boot. Grow a conscience, will ya? Maybe a heart, too.

I am pro-choice, yet draw a line at late term abortion (as KT describes when life is viable outside of the woumb) except in extraordinary circumstances.
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This position is a description of current law under Roe v Wade.

tc125231: It’s just not that simple. There are a lot of people under the umbrella of both pro-choice and pro-life. And they don’t all think alike. I once posted somewhere that I didn’t think a woman should be forced to give birth to a chromosomally abnormal baby. Boy, did I get walloped by a man who was the father of a Down’s child. On the other hand, as someone who strugged with secondary infertility, it’s very hard for me to reconcile aborting a baby who is viable outside of the womb, particularly in the 7th-9th month. I was able to have that second baby, but know many who have tried and tried to adopt. It could be argued that there is no such thing as an “unwanted” baby. My, Karen, what a can of worms you opened !

By the way, I do think that it is wrong that this man was killed even though what he was doing was out and out murder.

carolpeter, I won’t challenge most of what you say. I do challenge your assertion, “You guys are unbelievable. It’s not a religious issue”. It is very much a religious issue. It is also a humanist issue, a human issue, a social issue, an ethical issue, and whatever else field of thought may exist. But above all of that, it is very much, mostly, completely, a “religious issue”.
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And you know what, carol? You can engage me in any area of thought on it, but you totally lose me when you say it is not a religious issue, or if you want to discuss the issue on religious terms. I reject all of that. It is b.s.

So I guess if every one of those babies were removed by a more dangerous C-section and the mother died in the process or shortly after that would be ok. We would all support increasing taxes to provide very expensive post-natal care and then there would be lines to adopt the children although they might have serious problems. That should certainly be written into the health insurance bills.
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I think it is very easy to make statements and take positions without knowing what would happen if you were personally confronted with the problems. I knew a man who said he was not in favor of any abortion, until his youngest daughter was abroad for a few months and she got pregnant by someone who was deemed completely unacceptable. Suddenly, it was ok for her to get an abortion.
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I don’t think anyone who is pro-choice would ever insist that someone else get an abortion. Why is the reverse considered appropriate? Why has my newspaper run a column every week for years with a picture and article about a child needing adoption? Perhaps because these are not all perfect little babies, although they may be nurtured into very fine adults if someone really cared.

It’s terrorism and it will continue I guess until someone shoots Bill O’Reilly, Randall Terry, and James Dobson in both arms,(1993 attack on Tiller) bombs their offices (1986), blockades their offices (1991), cuts the wires to their security systems, chops holes in their office roofs and plugs up the drainage system, (last month), mounts protests at their churches, homes, and offices (repeatedly) and finally walks into the vestibules of their respective churches while they’re serving as ushers handing out church bulletins, with their wives upstairs singing in the choir, and shoots them to death, in the face so that witnesses will have to tell the police who the victims are, just like Tiller.

Then maybe, just maybe, the kind of disgusting violent rhetoric by the likes of these goons against doctors who perform legal abortions will cease.

Randall Terry explains who the real victims are and what the biggest harm from today’s killing may be-

“I am more concerned that the Obama Administration will use Tiller’s killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions.”
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http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/8967610531.html

may the same fate befall all involved in this cowardly deed.

Once again a life is taken in the name of religion

Perhaps because these are not all perfect little babies, although they may be nurtured into very fine adults if someone really cared.
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This to me is the ultimate hypocrisy of the anti-abortion movement (to call them pro-life is repugnant to me): your life is sacred until you are born, then have a nice life, you’re on your own. The absolute lack of compassion for the vast majority of chidren once they leave the womb just shows how incredibly morally bankrupt the anti-abortion movement is. Where are the large-scale adoption drives? Where are the churches pushing their supporters to change the laws to make adoption easier? Where are the anit-abortionists when it comes to health care for the new infant? Crickets. A fetus is little more than a political tool to control women and subjugate the country to their narrow view point.
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If people knew just how few late-term abortions were actually done I’m sure the furor would die down. But it’s not about the fetus, it’s about control. It’s not about every life, it’s about asserting dominance over reproductive freedoms and the overlording of morals to all Americans. It really comes down to one point: an abortion is between a woman and her doctor. Period. It’s none of my business and it sure as heck isn’t the government’s. And if it comes to the tragic point where a late term abortion is deemed medically necessary, that should be an option available to the doctor and the woman. That decision HAS to be agonizing enough without the demonization of that decision on the right.
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It’s going to bother me tremendously how much the anti-abortion movement will celebrate the murder of a Christian in his church. The fact this is already happening is enough to determine these people are all about themselves and not the woman or the potential life inside.

Randall Terry explains who the real victims are
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“For they sow the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind.” – Hosea 8:7
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Notice to all professed Christians who try to play the victim card here:
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Stay the f@ck away from me and the church I attend unless you are ready for an explicit (in all senses of the word) character analysis, free of charge.
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Thank You.

Thanks, yutsano, very well said.

Ms. Tumulty,
Your statement, “Today, it appears that abortion opponents finally succeeded,” is outrageous. It reveals that you are an incompetent journalist, with a bias that compels you to portray all of the millions of people that are morally opposed to abortion as horrible people who are somehow celebrating that someone was murdered. With all due respect, how dare you. Shame on you.

I wonder how many members of the mainstream media will call this what it is: terrorism.
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The far-right is engaging – has engaged – in the use of violence to promote a political goal for decades. Tillman, Oklahoma City, the Atlanta Olympics bombings, MLK, the Birmingham Church bombing, countless lynchings. The list goes on and on.
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Yet, people like Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh are described as “leaders” in places like this blog even though they are inciting people to this kind of violence. Somebody with some sense, Karen or Joe, needs to explain why it is that their colleagues persist in looking the other way when the guests on the television shows spew lies and hatred.
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Seriously. Someone who is a recognized leader in the media (Brian Williams, Tom Brokaw, Bob Schieffer) needs to explain why people who say things like this or ever allowed to be on network television:
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“How do you get promoted in a Barack Obama administration? By hating white people or even saying you do, or that they’re not good or put ‘em down, whatever…make white people the new oppressed minority and they’re going right along with it because they’re shutting up.”
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or this:
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“If Civil War, suffrage, and Civil Rights are to mean anything, we cannot accept that conclusion.”
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Limbaugh, Gingrich, O’Reilly, Hannity, Rove, Cheny, et. al. or nothing more than a bunch of John Birchers. I remember when the crazies like the Birchers were relegated to printing their craziness on mimeographed pamphlets. Now they show up on NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, The New York Times, and The Washington Post, and treated like their viewpoints are somehow respectable, reasonable, and rational.
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And the result is that people are dying. LIterally dying. And all because the mainstream media feeds on conflict.

“I knew a man who said he was not in favor of any abortion, until his youngest daughter was abroad for a few months and she got pregnant by someone who was deemed completely unacceptable. Suddenly, it was ok for her to get an abortion.”
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Certainly there are countless examples to the contrary, but this makes me think of cap-punishment. I’m firmly against it. As is the rest of the developed & dare I say it “civilized” world, with the exceptions of my native & adopted nations. However, if harm came to someone I love I’d be the first person out there looking to buy a gun to “kill” the killer. How does this connect? Well, I guess vengeance-mad men shouldn’t shape our laws. Nor should fathers like the man Ivy-B knew. In some cases, our personal convictions and our actions when confronted with the living reality of such issues cannot be reconciled. In the end, justice must not be determined by the passions or weakness of individuals.

It seems the murderer of untold thousands has himself been murdered. Notice the bleeding hearted liberal rage at the wanton murder of the Murderer, while turning their cold hearts away from the plight of all those people he killed before they could even leave the womb. Notice the bleeding hearted liberal rage against Christians because of the one murder of the one man, when they turn their cold hearts away from the outrage of those followers of the Religion of Peace who blow dozens of people up every single day, and have done so for decades unending. Mass murder done ever day, there by followers of Islam and here by George Tiller, and neither get a sniff from the bleeding hearted liberal elite. But let one kook murder the Murderer, and look at the indignant rage well up like a tidal wave.

Hypocrites!

Abortion is not I repeat NOT murder you morons.

Abortion IS murder, you moron.

killing a single cell is murder. You people are definitely mentally deficient.

Hmmm…why is a person who accidentally kills a fetus by reckless behavior charged with manslaughter? Why is a person who kills a pregnant woman, causing her death and the death of her fetus charged with two murders?

Abortion IS murder. Always has been. Convincing yourself that you weren’t human until you passed through the birth canal doesn’t make it ok to kill people who haven’t yet done so.

all you pro-life murders need to be lined up and whipped with a cane.

@rose83 –Have they repudiated those who put out the rhetoric? If you allow people to yell “Fire” in a crowded theatre, people die. If you countenance people calling for the murder of people, people will be murdered. See the history of the KKK and lynchings in America.
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So if you ally yourself with those who say such things, you are going to have to put up with the mud splashing on you, when someone takes them at their word.
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tc125231, Well obviously my point was that not everyone in the pro-life movement is doing the equivalent of yelling “fire” in a crowded theater. Stereotypes are a fact of life, and there is a negative stereotype of pro-lifers that too many people unquestioningly accept. Most pro-lifers do not ally themselves with people who call for the murder of doctors. Thus holding them responsible for Tiller’s murder or assuming they see it as a “success” is like right-wingers accusing those of us who believe 9/11 was exploited for political gain by the Republicans of also believing crazy 9/11 conspiracy theories.

so…kill George Tiller before he leaves the womb, and it’s OK?…kill George Tiller AFTER he leaves the womb…murder?

YES!

your slow but your learning.

Congratulations! This thread has now achieved primal ugliness.
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Welcome to the world of absolute black-and-white, I’m right and you’re damned, don’t confuse me with the truth. It’s certainly comforting to know that we’re a nation armed to the teeth, isn’t it?

choska Says:
Sunday, May 31, 2009 at 6:16 pm

I wonder how many members of the mainstream media will call this what it is: terrorism.
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The far-right is engaging – has engaged – in the use of violence to promote a political goal for decades. Tillman, Oklahoma City, the Atlanta Olympics bombings, MLK, the Birmingham Church bombing, countless lynchings. The list goes on and on.
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Actually, I wonder how long before some MSM member in good standing takes this opportunity to condemn both sides, because sure all those incidents you mention, but Bill Ayers!
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FT: “Congratulations! This thread has now achieved primal ugliness”.
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I agree. When I see a feeding frenzy develop, I just hang back and watch, like I would at a bar room brawl.
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But it is fun to watch.

Is not the body in the womb a human being. And james what exactly is the religious aspect of forcing the removal of a living human body from a woman’s womb, piercing the back of its head with a scalpel and suctioning the brains out of its head? By the way, James we’re talking about a living , viable person. One who was in the same stage of development as every person who is commenting in this blog right now. Only now they’re dead. Those who believe this not murder are immoral.

I hope the family sues the heck out of Operation Rescue since they post his intinerary on there website plus all the general harassment.
It is up to god to judge not the right wing religious zealots that helped pull the trigger. As Obama says lets do more to stop unwanted
pregnancies before abortion is a womans only choice. I guess people like carolpeter prefers the back alleys in coat hangers likme the good ol’days

Those responsible must be treated like the murdering terrorists they are, and President Obama must ensure that legal abortions are available for all women in unthreatening surroundings. As a clinic defense volunteer at Dr. Tiller’s clinic during the horrible summer protests in 1991, I am furious that his life ended this way after decades of stalking, threats, and murder attempts. When will we all agree that the only way to END abortion is to PREVENT THE NEED FOR IT with safe, available contraception for all women?

carol, you are religious, yet want to hide that fact and discuss as if religion is not relevant to your views. Your description of abortion…”removal of a living human body from a woman’s womb, piercing the back of its head with a scalpel and suctioning the brains out of its head?” is a distortion of what common abortions are. The term “immoral” is a religious one.
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carol, I am personally opposed to abortion, but am pro-life. I am even more opposed to theocracy and religion. I am sorry that we have no grounds for rational discussion, as although I find the issue of abortion worthy of discussion, I find religion and any discussion founded in religion to be irrational.

Whoops, make “pro-life” pro-choice.

fapfapfapfap is correct: Abortion is not murder, because murder is a legal term, and abortion is legal. But then killing people you owned was legal for years and not considered murder.
A question:
A teen girl delivers a baby 6 weeks prematurely and has her boyfriend smother it to death. Both are charged with murder. But another girl in Kansas has a doctor deliver her baby except for its head, again 6 weeks prematurely, then cut open its skull and vaccuum out its brains to kill it. And this is just fine?
What pseudo-religious magic is there about passing through the birth canal that makes one child ok to kill, and the other not ok to kill?

“fapfapfapfap Says:
Sunday, May 31, 2009 at 6:21 pm
Abortion is not I repeat NOT murder you morons.”

Read the childrens book “The Miracle of ME” and you will see life begins at conception. You can get the book at http://www.barnabasworks.com/pedersen_miracle.html

Anyone who believes that what God starts in the womb is theirs to suck out is wrong. All things that He brings are for the good of His people. My daughter changed my life and only for the good. She was a blessing to me.

j6j6731, nice encapsulation of ‘pro-life’ and ‘rule of law’. Do any the remaining Republicans actually believe any of the words that come out of their mouths?

Those who are opposed to abortion are usually and supposedly motivated by the Word of God. My question to them is: What part of “Thou Shall Not Kill” do you idiots NOT understand?
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It’s not “Kill to keep others from killing”. It’s not “Kill because you disagree with the law of the land”. It’s not “It’s morally justified to kill someone who kills someone else”.
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It’s THOU SHALL NOT KILL. The old ‘eye for an eye’ BS wasn’t the what God said, it was Moses getting the message wrong, and Jesus said don’t do that eye for an eye thing, either, because that’s wrong as well.
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And the ‘denunciation’ of the shooting on the part of the Operation Rescue folks sounds considerably less than sincere:
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““Operation Rescue has worked tirelessly on peaceful, non-violent measures to bring him to justice through the legal system, the legislative system,” Mr. Newman said. “I’m a tireless advocate and spokesman for the pre-born children who are dying in clinics everyday. Mr. Tiller was an abortionist. But this wasn’t personal. We are pro life, and this act was antithetical to what we believe.””
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The man was a DOCTOR, not a MISTER. They’re only pro-life when it suits them to be. I’ll BET the champagne corks are popping over there. The idiot domestic terrorist supporters couldn’t even sound like they were against killing someone when their organization says ‘don’t kill the fetuses because they’re human beings.’
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Well, so was Dr. Tiller.
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The man who did this and the moral high-horse folks who think it’s justified will ALL burn in Hell. God knows what’s in your hearts. And I do not imagine He is pleased with any of you.
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pro-choice + religion = total nut cases.

thank the lord!!! a victory for all the innocent babies that he murdered. he will go to hell with blood on his hands. and yes abortion is murder no matter how you try to play it, when u take a life its murder.

ifthethunderdon’tgetya:
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The MSM was more than happy to broadcast the assertion that Ayers was a terrorist:
http://mediamatters.org/research/200810070016
http://mediamatters.org/research/200810080011
http://mediamatters.org/research/200810060013
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I’m sure you are right that the false equivalence will pop up in 5,4,3,2,1 . . . now.

Those of us on the left who are old enough to remember back to the 60′s know the despairing feeling of “they’ve done it again.” I expect that’s part of Karen’s “it appears that abortion opponents finally succeeded.” It remains true that in the last 50 years it has mostly been those on the far right who have chosen to make their arguments through assassination.
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This makes the outrageous rhetoric of Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Coulter et al dangerous in a way that is antithetical to any rational concept of “pro-life.”
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It’s hard to hold the anger and sadness from this. It would be very good to have a discussion of issues around abortion; we’ve done that here before very civilly. But this is not about abortion. It’s about how people allow their losing in a democracy into paranoia that justifies any ends.

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Yeah, my image is two blokes drunkenly discussing philosophy as face-painting hockey fans scream at one another.
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And speaking of my all-time fav face painter:
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The people like rachealsedmack who are celebrating this are simply the American Taliban. They want to impose their extremist religion on all of us. And if they don’t like what we are doing then they feel that God compels them to kill us.
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Like I said the other day, there is a world wide war occurring between the religious extremists like rachealsedmack and Osama bin Laden on one side, and the rationalists on the other. I’m pretty sure that my side is going to win, but a lot of people are going to be murdered until Operation Rescue and the Taliban are discredited and somehow convinced/forced to stop killing the rest of us.

Somehow my lead to a Seinfeld clip was lost:
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I was responding to FT & Formerly’s, “Congratulations! This thread has now achieved primal ugliness”.
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I agree. When I see a feeding frenzy develop, I just hang back and watch, like I would at a bar room brawl.”
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But I’ve been known to segue wildly.

Couldn’t have said it any better myself Choska.

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The problem here comes down to the insistence on binary thinking.
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Either something is human or it isn’t. The idea that something could become human by a gradual natural process doesn’t enter into the logic of the equation.
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Failure to account for this simple physical fact is why the two sides are doomed to talk past each other into eternity.

It would be very good to have a discussion of issues around abortion; we’ve done that here before very civilly. But this is not about abortion. It’s about how people allow their losing in a democracy into paranoia that justifies any ends.
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Kathy, well said.

Well children we learned today that pro-lifers are the true murderers in today’s society.

Dirks: I’d say the gradations apply not only to when we deem life to have arrived, but how many positions there are between those clad in sandwich-boards. Or how I might feel as a would-be father (i.e. my personal feelings about an issue) vs. what is best for society. That we can believe one thing for ourselves, yet be open-minded enough to avoid imposing such beliefs on others (or even judging them for their decisions).
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Abortion is just one among dozens of issues where there are those who believe in the beauty of gray, nuance etc. and those who are absolutely certain that they’re right and everyone else must be forced to agree with them.

ifthethunderdontgetya – typical liberal. You’re blaming the far right for MLK and lynchings? You should study history. If there was a “government conspiracy” behind MLK’s murder, it was the Dems in power. And yes – the Southern Dems were the guys that owned slaves and then ran the clan after the Civil War.

I guess it’s Reagan’s fault we were in WWII.

All this has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Someone kills someone on the left and it’s terrorism. Kill someone on the right and you are a freedom fighter.

Tiller will have to answer to God and only God for what he has done. Unfortunately, some people take it upon themselves to act as God. As much as I hate to dmit it, Tiller had as much of a right to live as all the babies he killed.

Guys, this is NOT about religion. Abortion is the surgical removal, Always violent yet organized removal of a human being from the womb before its birth. Why is it that these human beings are considered to be without the right to stay alive because they dwell within a woman’s body? Is it because in that state they are owned by the woman as a possession or as an organ of the woman’s body (which is a stretch)? I have not mentioned a religious aspect to my argument . Those who disagree are entertaining assumptions. You don’t know what I am and cannot assume that I am any more than a person who thinks that human beings have the right to choose living instead of dying.
I think that humanity should be regarded as the most important resource of this planet. So please let’s not embellish this issue with our political and religious leanings. It’s a human issue.

This is not a discussion about the moral legitimacy of a right to personal privacy and bodily autonomy that extends to abortion procedures and abortive medications that necessarily terminate the lives of blastocysts, embryos and fetuses.
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This is a discussion of what may have been a political act of domestic terrorism.

Karen, what a dimwit you must be. Truly a stupid and vapid mindlessness. Duh? The violence, intimidation, vandalism, assault and murder performed and provoked invoked by the anti-abortion movement gets almost no attention until one of the wingnuts goaded by the insanely inflammatory rhetoric acts out what people like Randall Terry want most: death to drs who perform abortions, destruction and elimination of all family planning, the end of contraception, condoms, morning after, all of it.

The highly charged debate you say. What debate. The anti-abortionists will resort to everything to eliminate abortion including murder. However, I am not aware of single pro-abortion movement that seeks to assassinate, destroy, terrorize anyone or organization of the anti-abortion movement. If the debate is charged it’s because of right-wing extremists who use every violent means at their disposal (bombs, vandalism, murder) to eliminate those who disagree with them.

a few cells are not a human being they are just that a few cells.

@Rose83

–Let me speak slowly. I see a number of people in here calling abortion “murder”. It is NOT murder –it is a legal act. Murder is not. Every single person who calls abortion “murders” and calls those who engage in it “murderers” is yelling “Fire” in a crowded theatre. You yell it often enough, and sooner or later some simple minded or mentally unstable individual is going to decide that they will be a “hero” by getting rid of an evil “murderer.”

I say this irregardless of my own personal enthusiasm –or lack therof –for abortion. You know, the Nazis, who basically invented organized propaganda, started their march towards the “Final Solution” by making movies where Jews were depicted as rats.

Once you convinced people that a group is literally vermin, then genocide doesn’t seem so appalling.

Am I communicating?

Even though I’m pro death penalty, I want the guy who shot Dr. Tiller to spend the rest of his life in the general population of a prison, not in isolation. He deserves to get passed around like a whiskey bottle at a frat house. If he decides to take his own life, I hope he believes his religion condemns a suicide to hell.

rachealsedmack:
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Do not ever let me hear you complain about Napolitanos’ terrorism report.
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NEVER!
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This is the f*cking GOP on April 18, 1995, except that it is May 30, 2009.
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I’ve seen this filth before…

sacredh, et al:
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I know I’ve been a relentless crank at times, over certain issues. The only thing I can say right now is that THIS is why.

53_3: I stayed away from this thread for hours because I didn’t think I was calmed down enough to post without really blowing up. If you’ve been a relentless crank, I hadn’t noticed. I made it halfway through the posts and then had to take a walk outside and smoke a cigarette. I was going to engage in the debate with the people who say abortion is murder but it’s useless. It’s like talking to your dog. They hear the sounds but unless you say outside, sit, come or eat you’re just making noises. Murder is when people without health insurance can’t afford treatment. Murder is when we go to war over false pretenses. Murder is when lunatics decide they have the power of life and death other those who disagree with them.

My wife miscarried a few years ago…why was she not charged with involuntary manslaughter?
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Some perspective on what it is that Dr. Tiller actually did.
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http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=22002
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When you realize just how much of an agonizing decision this must be for these families, Dr. Tiller’s murder becomes more poignant.

yutsano, thank you so much for that link to John Cole. I wish everyone would read it and the comments. This dramatically shows the horrible decision this is and what a hero Dr. Tiller was.

yutsano: Thanks for the link. Abortion is a tragedy. Tragedies abound in this world. The Coles’ situation for deciding on a late term abortion is probably closer to the norm than someone deciding after eight months that they’ve changed their mind and don’t want a baby after all. Very few things in this life are black and white. The choice should be between a woman and her doctor. The busy bodies who think they know what is best for everyone else sicken me. They don’t know the circumstances involved and yet they think their values are the only values. They have no right to decide for someone else. What they decide for themselves is their business. It stops there.

I Used Dr. Tillers Clinic For A Late Term Abortion. All you commentators do not have a clue of the emotional pain a pregnant women has to go thru to have an abortion. I had to abort my 26 weeks old fetus due to severe deformity and birth defects. My OBGYN recommended me to Dr. Tiller’s clinic as even they understood, we should not give birth as the “life” the child will have …will be painful to watch and very limiting for the child. The abortion is conducted in a safe, sensitive and clinically first rate procedure. The very latest scientific techniques & drugs are used to induce fetus “sleep”. After the abortion, I was given an option to ‘meet’ my baby boy, which my husband and I gladly did. The baby was given to us in a beautiful and sensitive manner and we both said our silent goodbye’s to him. After which the clinic Chaplain performed appropriate last rites. Portions of the media, anti-abortion groups and their RELIGIOUS lobbies have portrayed Dr. Tiller and similar clinics as amoral slaughterhouses. My reality is this – Dr. Tiller’s clinic is a refuge of last resort for families in a difficult predicament. No has a right to decide on abortion other than Mother and her doctor. Abortion is a emotionally tough choice for a pregnant woman, in the least, PLEASE don’t judge her or her doctor!

bkpindia: I’m sorry for your terrible loss. You’re absolutely right, I have no clue about the emotional pain you and your husband went through. No one has the right to judge either you or your doctor.

Even some of the hardcore rightists are getting pretty freaked out by all of the murder celebration going on: http://tinyurl.com/lhjseh

SZ: Thanks for the link. The comments don’t surprise me. Even the comments about pro-choice activists possibly being behind the assassination don’t surprise me. There are some serious nut cases out there and the right wingers are doing everything they can to fire them up. There probably will be some backlash and it’s deserved. The right wing media icons will be publicly deploring the very acts they incite. It’s the same thing with the gun nuts. They fear Obama is going to take away or limit their gun rights. Obama and the democrats are not going to take their guns away. The media keeps firing them up and if one of them ever does go out and shoot the President, THEN they’ll see a serious effort to take away their guns or limit them. They’re just too stupid to think of the consequences of their actions.

SZ was on the money in his posts. KT, simply adding “it appears” does next to nothing to break the overt link between this act and an entire movement supported by millions of Americans. They cannot all be involved in it, and it’s obvious that at least a large number of them are horrified by this event.

KT, I respect you enormously as a journalist, but this particular line is beneath the standards of the profession and has no place in an otherwise excellent report.

I applaud the killer for destroying that baby-killing fiend.

I can’t wait till the day all you pro-lifers rot in a worse hell than you created in life. Oh the joy and happiness the rest of the real world will behold.

A lot of this academic nonsense and mass murder of our unborn children would come to a screeching halt if our government would do its job and impose a national federal fornication tax of $1000 per incident.

The funny thing about you soft white people (admit it, most of you are) is you only have sympathy for what’s in front of your face. After a violent crime, you cry your noble tears for the accused, because, “boo-hoo, he looks so darn sad in those orange jumpers. What about the victim? Well, hmm, I dunno, she’s alive right, and she doesn’t look sad, she looks kinda mad.” Same thing with these abortions. “Oh, I feel so bad for the wife, boo-hoo, and well, about them babies that got killed, I dunno, I wasn’t there when that happened.” It boils down to your ability to empathize. If you’re some fat soft sheltered person (99% of you), you have no idea what sudden brutal vicious unpredictable violence is like, and you have no capacity for imagining how terrible it is for a victim. Nothing whatsoever, you twinkie-eating fat slobs. As someone who has legally used sudden brutal vicious force on another human — I just thought I’d point that out.

The late Dr. George Tiller once told me that medicine was simple compared to the ethical issues that it raised. By his tone and the interest he paid to what I had to say about ethics, I could see that he had a deep concern for doing what was right. The trouble is, as he was acutely aware, how can one come to know what is right?

The more one thinks about finding certainty in ethics, the more unsettled one feels. With ethics, anxiety and philosophy are inseparable.

The first answer that I will consider is one of the more common ones. In response to the uneasiness many feel when faced with unanswered questions, there is a tendency to seek a definitive answer as directly as possible. Just like a frustrated parent finally answers a child’s endless series of “Why? Why? Why?” with “Because I said so,” many people simply live as they were raised. How often have we heard someone defend an ethical position with the line, “Well that was just how I was raised”? Such an appeal is really a refusal to fully consider the question. It foists the problem off on an authority such as a parent or church. The logic seems to be that, although the problem is too difficult for me to even consider, my father, mother, grandmother, or pastor was pretty smart and if they said so, then it must be just as they said.

One such attempt defines what is right as that which generates the most happiness for the most people. To illustrate this pragmatic approach to ethics, many teachers will ask their students whether it is better to take one life if many more lives can be saved. Rather than debating such a question, it is wise to first examine the assumptions of the question itself. Such a calculation, I argue, conflates what is best in terms of moral absolutes with what is the best possible choice one has in life.

I will explain. Murder, I argue, is morally wrong regardless of the beneficial or tragic consequences that may result. But that is not the end of the matter. People do not live in a world of ideals alone, but in an imperfect world complete with horrific circumstances and limited choices where, at times, there is no right answer. We have been cast out of Eden and into a world of struggle and pain.

According to most Christian traditions, we all fall short. None of us ever measures up to perfection. Perhaps the choice to have an abortion is one of those times when a woman falls short of an impossible moral standard.

I have no position of privilege from which I can sit in judgment of Dr. Tiller or any of his patients. In a perfect world Dr. Tiller’s services would never have been sought. There would be no rape, no deformities, no young women seeking assurance and love in the act of sex without commitment. Perhaps abortions are morally wrong in some absolute sense. But if I were put into the circumstances of one of his patients what would I actually do? That is an entirely different question. The reason that debates about abortion fail to get anywhere is due to the failure of the debaters to recognize this difference.

Perhaps Dr. Tiller’s memory is best honored as one who served to help woman through a difficult time for which there is no right answer. Sometimes the best that can be achieved is still bad.

I realize that this view will leave many feeling uneasy. I know Dr. Tiller himself felt uneasy, and I imagine that many of his patients did as well. Many will attempt to soothe their anxiety by bearing fervent witness to what they hope is true or to the values upon which they were raised. Still, those who speak the loudest and with the greatest tone of conviction do not by such volume or tone have any greater access to the truth than do those of us who accept ethical undecidability and its attendant anxiety.

I imagine that Dr. Tiller went to church on the day of his murder for the same reason that many of us go and that many of us pray. I imagine that he went with the same prayer in his heart that all humble men and women ask of God — the sinners’ prayer — “Lord have mercy.”

hhwc: Damn, man, didn’t know I had my webcam runnin. You got me wrong, though, I don’t care about right and rong so much as that I figure a lot of those aborted babies are mine, and I’m still tryin mighty hard to make a positive impact on the American gene pool.

cc: Just because “Tiller the Killer” was an educated man doesn’t mean that he wasn’t a monster. Ted Bundy had an education too, and just like Tiller struggled with ethics all the time…NOT!

ffff: The way you talk you must be a Pentacostal Preacher.

Bill O’Reilly must be wondering if it’s the Viagra or Tiller’s murder that’s keeping him so “up” today. He must have called Tiller a “baby killer” more than a thousand times on air. I’m guessing that publicly he’s spouting the usual “although I didn’t approve of Dr. Tiller’s actions, I would never condone his murder….”. And I’m guessing that alone in his room, O’Reilly just can’t stop gloating over the power he exerts by instigating a lunatic to kill. I’m pretty sure that it’s a crime to yell “fire” in a crowded public place. And it is certainly a felony to verbally motivate someone to commit an act of lethal violence. With all the recorded instances of O’Reilly calling Tiller a baby killer along with a multitude of other incendiary adjectives about him and his activities, I wonder if this does not qualify as O’Reilly inciting to violence the perpetrator of the crime.

Written in 1992 and still pertinent in 2009:
Did I Leave the Left or Did the Left Leave Me?

Twenty years ago, I knew who my friends were. Long hair, tye-dyes and bell bottoms were our uniform. I also knew that what we all believed in was right: freedom, peace, love, compassion, and life.

We fought against the war in Vietnam because it was killing our brothers and sisters and their children. We demonstrated against CIA actions in Central and South America because we thought that “Kill a Commie for Christ” was just a tad misconceived. We stood side by side with our African-American brothers and sisters because Klansmen, Nazis, and all-American bigots were killing them for kicks. We marched for women’s rights and the ERA.

We still fight to end the torture of animals in laboratories, the abuses heaped on helpless farm animals, the animals caught in traps and the fur-farm victims who are skinned alive to satisfy the vanity of the obscenely rich.

Over these two decades we have had many causes, struggles, battles. All of them to preserve the ideals we knew were right. And we were as one. We loved life and would fight forever to protect its sanctity.

But today something is wrong. I look around me at the animals rights demonstrations, at the vigils against the death penalty, at the Earth Day celebration, and the anti-apartheid rallies. All of these people who are my family in the struggle for life are against me. I cannot speak to my friends about THE ISSUE.

When did I lose my sanity? When did my world become so distorted that I stopped seeing the truth? How can I not know that true compassion is saving whales, dolphins, dogs, mice, minks, South Americans, Brazilian rain forests and even convicted murderers but not an unborn baby?

And how did it happen that these right-wing, fascist, capitalist, imperialist, industrial-military exploiters of everything that lives can feel the same as I do about abortion?

In Buddhism there is a meditation which aims at achieving mental equanimity, the viewing of all sentient beings in the exact same light. In it, the meditator visualizes an enemy, a friend and an acquaintance about whom s/he has no feelings. The meditator thinks of why s/he has certain feelings about each, then remembering that each of the three has been in a different relationship with the meditator in previous lives, reverses the feelings about each, visualizing the friend as the enemy and the enemy as the friend.

Somehow this meditation has become reality. I am joined with those I distrust most and alienated from those I love. The result of this, the end product of my respect for all life as sacred and equal is my complete isolation. I could have friends among the “left” but we could never agree about abortion. I could have friends in the “pro-life” camp but their idea of life seems too selective.

So I remain alone, wondering who can explain this all to me? Who can clear up this mystery? Is it not hypocrisy to call one’s self pro-life but support wars and the death penalty, ignore starvation, use products tested on animals, eat meat, wear leather? Is it not hypocrisy to scream and yell to save every life but one’s own unborn child, especially when one admits one can’t be sure it is not life?

Somehow it seems that, if we have dedicated our lives to fighting for the rights of the unprotected, that we must fight on for the protection of the most vulnerable of all life. If we are wrong in seeking to protect that life, the end result will only be more babies born. However, if they are wrong and the slaughter continues, they will have murdered their own children and helped others do the same. Is this not cause for tears?

Elliot Klein
Reprinted from SisterLife

ea4: Let’s wait ’till the trial’s over before we call the killer a lunatic. We don’t know, maybe Tiller raped the killer’s wife, or killed his baby. Let’s not be too hasty to condemn the killer.

spoken like a true pro-lifer

Come on folks, you take yourselves too seriouly. I’m just messing with you. Lighten up a little. What’s so bad about one more dead abortionist?

Whoa! You guys are still here? I feel like the owner of a house that hosted the mother of all keggers. I awake with a wicked hangover, stumble downstairs and find a handful of nutters on my LR sofa arguing about the intricacies of gaming strategy. Out with you! Take your freakin’ sandwich boards and don’t let the screen-door hit you in the arse.

jc: Now THAT’S more like it! You got it, man. bye.

“Murder is when lunatics decide they have the power of life and death other those who disagree with them.”
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Sacredh, (side note to jcapan) let me make a minor correction:
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“Terrorism is when lunatics decide they have the power of life and death other those who disagree with them.”
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jcapan:
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This seems to be more like waking up and finding your best freind dead, bloodsoaked slogans all over the walls, and the natural born killers calmly talking about the good deed they did while wiping of their knives on your sofa.
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At least, having stumbled into this room, is how I feel!

53_3: Your correction was appreciated. It is terrorism.

It is domestic terrorism. The government’s goal should be to assure citizens that they are able to perform and obtain perfectly legal medical services without any fear whatsoever.

This guy is a terrorist. Women get to have abortions in this country, and, in Kansas they get to have the abortions that he provided. This guy did not just kill Tiller, he attacked the civil rights of women in America. We are supposed to have the rule of law in America, and that means that the woman’s right to an abortion is to be respected. Personally, I am pro-life. I believe Roe v. Wade to be a horribly wrong decision, and I am appalled by the million odd abortions in this country each year, but the solution to that is for us to exercise our power at the ballot box, use peaceful protest (and that does not mean taking down license plates of people visiting clinics to find out their home numbers to harass them). I even sypmathize with people who point out the unfairness of a bogus Supreme Court decision (Roe v. Wade) thwarting the democratic process. But we don’t resort to violence in America to solve political differences. It’s that simple.
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Of course, one could point out the fact that Obama has made common cause with someone as evil as the murderer here, viz., Bill Ayers. How in the world can Obama lecture us about not resorting to violence when apparently a violent (and unapologized for) past was no barrier to him?

This just in from the WaPo (heavily moderated and censored) “chat” between AMC, Tucker Carlson & whatever the moderators want readers to believe is their audience:

Anonymous: Over the past few years, Bill O’Reilly has made the following comments about Dr. Tiller:
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- He “destroys fetuses for just about any reason right up until the birth date for $5,000.”
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- He’s guilty of “Nazi stuff,”
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- a moral equivalent to NAMBLA and al-Qaida
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- “This is the kind of stuff that happened in Mao’s China, Hitler’s Germany, Stalin’s Soviet Union”
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- “operating a death mill”
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- “has blood on his hands”
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- “executing babies about to be born
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Tucker, I’m not saying Billo wanted some kook to kill him, but isn’t this playing with fire? Is there some quote by Olberman or any other liberal commentator that even comes close? Who has the craziest of the liberal left murdered lately?
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Tucker Carlson: Every one of those descriptions of Tiller is objectively true. I sincerely think it’s appalling that he was murdered. But Tiller was a monster, no doubt.

Karen – Please no longer make inflammatory statements like “Abortion opponents must be happy.” That was very hurtful to me & several others I have spoken with about this sentiment. That is bigotry of a most cruel form, to assume that everyone opposed to abortion would approve of the murder of an abortionist. The ends DO NOT justify the means, and only a complete whack-job would agree with Tiller’s murder. It is unfortunate Tiller met such a tragic & untimely death.

I am outraged by the murder of Dr. Tiller. I am opposed to abortion. There is no conundrum here. I am pro-life, even the life of someone who had yet to learn he was taking away life from the most innocent of creatures, a baby in its mother’s womb.

To those who allege abortion is not murder, why have societies through the millenia had harsh penalties for the person who would harm or murder a fetus? This has been the case long before the present age.

The only time abortion has been approved has been when the baby has not been “wanted” by its mother. It is the height of ignorance to allege unborn fetuses are unwanted (PERIOD)! Perhaps that mother doesn’t want a baby, but there are many people in society who daily adopt babies of all colors, genders, ethnicities, developmental condition, etc. and a VERY LONG WAITING LIST for babies to be adopted.

Face it, this whole issue is about sexual licentiousness, not some ethereal “right to choose.” If you have EVER counseled someone who is an “abortion survivor” you would see the TRAGIC aftermath of many abortions. This is a very deep hurt to heal, for those who have not seered their consciences on this issue.

Over 30+ million babies have been aborted in the US. The ponzi scheme known as Social Security is fast becoming bankrupt because the replenishment of cash is lower than required due to the insufficient number of babies born to pay into the system. Retirees are draining the funds with too few younger workers paying in. You may then say, increase immigration. Well, that may work for a short while, until they also become abortioners, and the downward cycle will accelerate.

From all vantage points, abortion is immoral, unethical, impractical, unwise, and is limiting the future progress the US & the world will make on all fronts.

There is an unconscionable amount of trollery on this thread, the sole purpose of which is to provoke anger, and disrupt real discussion.
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Effective, intelligent, sensitively and transparently applied moderation would be useful here.

KT: Please continue to make “inflammatory and hurtful remarks”. There are many of us who see those remarks as the plain unvarnised truth. Providing cover for domestic terrorists has never been your style. As you can tell by the number of posts, you hit a nerve.

spellcheck, spellcheck, spellcheck. I’m off and running.

Should I mention that the world’s population has doubled in my own short lifetime?
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There are many things that are in short supply.
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Children are not on that list.

Per the posts here made by “sacredh” & many others,

It is sad to see how we as a society have descended in common decency. Many of the posts on this board are horrifically spiteful & hateful, across all viewpoints. I see this on many other boards/blogs where similar poltical footballs are kicked around.

To say a truly objectionable statement borne out of an incorrect & ignorant assumption should continue to be made is utterly amazing. I cannot believe how COARSE this culture has become! Is it because of the anonymity of people sitting behind their PC monitors? Is it because they don’t have a relationship to maintain with the person they’re criticizing? Is it because they are unlikely to be bullied in return? I shudder to think of your kids sitting next to mine in school if they’ve been taught to have attitudes as written in posts.

People – Regardless of viewpoint on this issue, PLEASE learn to communicate with decency & respect! It is a sad commentary on our society to see the profanity, rancor, & bile expressed all too often, ironically when attacking others for doing the same!

People – Regardless of viewpoint on this issue, PLEASE learn to communicate with decency & respect!
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We used to do that, but what we got in reply was profanity, rancor, and bile. After a while, even the stoutest heart will begin to reply in kind.
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That’s how it goes around here. I’m sorry if you’ve stumbled upon something shocking; maybe political blogs just aren’t your cup of tea. There’s no shame in that.

When will we all agree that the only way to END abortion is to PREVENT THE NEED FOR IT with safe, available contraception for all women?
————————————

Never, because the religious right doesn’t care about abortion. They have a problem with people enjoying sex.

If they actually cared about abortion, there are infinite numbers of things we could do as a society to reduce the number of abortions. But it has never been about that.

The global gag rule, the continuing ban on Plan B (or onerous restrictions on it) in red states, “abstinence only” sex education… all of these things have to do with preventing people from enjoying sex without procreation, and that’s what the “pro-life” crowd is really on about at the core.

Hey Friar Tuck,

No, sorry sir, you assumed incorrectly! I have plenty of mettle to go toe to toe with anyone on this blog. Trust me, if you were standing next to me, you would know…

The objective shouldn’t be to just vent to get a rise out of others, or beat one’s own drum. The objective should be rational discourse. If you knew my life experiences you would know why I STRONGLY advocate for this rather than resorting to physical blows. Teddy Roosevelt said to walk softly & carry a big stick. People on this board too often seem to type harshly & think as nimbly as a big stick.

You & many others grossly missed the point I & several others made in this blog. Both sides spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME SHOUTING & not enough time listening & applying the gray matter between the ears. The narcissistic sound bites transformed into bytes of harsh words do nothing but bite at people’s hides.

Tiller is dead. No rational person celebrates it. Even God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (quote from the Bible). There are many whack-jobs on both sides of this issue who have said very hateful things – AVOID THEM!

What is needed is to work together as a society to repair our frayed fabric, so we can truly become once again, one nation indivisible. Too many people today are wanna-be TV bloviators & do too little to actually bridge the divides.

Anyone can be cynical – don’t ever mistake cynicism for intelligence! The brightest people I know (from CEOs to janitors) avoid cynicism & remain optimistic on life. Most of the less intelligent people get tripped up in life’s transient issues, one after the next. Unfortunately US society is falling into this trap as a whole. I do what I can to work against it. Join me!

Wow. Interesting that people in here, so worked up about waterboarding, want Tiller’s killer to be passed around the cellblock like a whiskey bottle.

spob:
Not a bad idea, from my point of view. A lot of your peers would probably like it, given the number that have been outed in a whirlwind of hypocracy. You’re no better.
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Ayers? Bull. Try facts first.
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Then get back to us…

You & many others grossly missed the point I & several others made in this blog.
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Sigh.
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For the record, zeke199, there are a number of sane, practical voices on this blog, and I’m often one of them. I doubt many of us ‘grossly missed your point’ at all. Be assured that I do not mistake cynicism for intelligence.
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Also, for the record, there is no way any of us can ‘know your life experiences’ because you, like most of us, employ a pseudonym. For all anyone knows, you are a dog, a 5-year-old boy, or King Leopold of Belgium.
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The murder of Dr. Tiller is an obscenity. It is also proving to be a revelation: an act of this kind often reveals a a good deal about individuals, power structures, prejudices, and the nature of the ‘US society’ which may – or may not – be falling into a trap.
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If you want others to be less judgmental, then you also should be slow to judge.

FT:
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“If you want others to be less judgmental, then you also should be slow to judge.”
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As a case in point friar, I have yet to see anyone post or comment on the fact that Dr. Tiller had to observe rigorous medical guidelines before performing each operation.
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Such an oversight is very convenient for these Taliban-wannabe’s…

53_3,
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I never cease to be amazed at the number of personal decisions other people insist upon being given the power to make for me. “For your own good, and for the good of the Church . . . ”
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Not being ordained has proved to be the cornerstone of my sanity.

53_3, you cannot win this argument, so I don’t know why you even try. Ayers and this scum who killed Dr. Tiller are peas out of the same pod. Obama thought it cool to serve with Ayers, but lectures us about using violence to resolve issues. That’s hypocrisy of the highest order.
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Neither Ayers or this murderer are fit for polite company. Obama gets it right with the murderer, but not so right with Ayers.
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With respect to passing someone around like a whiskey bottle, the problem is that even if someone deserves it (and I’ll leave that question aside), the tolerance of such things in a prison setting shows prisoners that “might makes right”, a lesson we definitely do not want reinforced. Also, there are medical issues and associated costs. Additionally, it provides moral justification for prison escape . . . . all and all not a good thing.

Unfortunately, you know that God* and uncountable dittoheads want to toast your heart on a long, looooooong stick…
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*I’m referring to the one that Rush, Inc worship. Not surprisingly, “He” looks suspiciously like Timothy McVeigh.

53_3 20, spob 0…

FT:
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“For all anyone knows, you are a dog, a 5-year-old boy, or King Leopold of Belgium.”
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I think spob would be located in the front of your list kaff kaff…

btw, spob, guess the President is succeeding.
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Therefore, the country must be failing.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/01/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?postversion=2009060114
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Not!
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I won’t wait for you to get stupid by claiming I’m saying the dow jones is the economy. I’ll save you from your own stupidity. It still isn’t. Read the article, numbskull.
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Face it, spob. You and your idiot filth are loozers. Big time.

zeke199: You said “PLEASE learn to communicate with decency & respect!” and yet YOUR posts contain such disrespectful phrases as “height of ignorance”, “this whole issue is about sexual licentiousness, not some etereal “right to choose”", “from all vantage points abortion is immoral, unethical, impractical, unwise”, “even God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked” and my personal favorite “I shudder to think of your kids sitting next to mine in school if they’ve been taught to have attitudes as written in posts”. Let me give you some advice. Don’t expect to be treated with kid gloves when your own posts are hypocritical, sanctimonious. self righteous and disrespectful towards the opinions of others. If you want to debate, let’s debate. Just knock off the holier than thou bullsh!t. I have no idea what you teach your kids, but it sure as hell isn’t tolerance for other’s opinions.

sacred:
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They are very good at talking out both sides of their mouth. That’s why I don’t give spob any respect at all, and I as well would not be willing to give zeke199 the time of day in polite conversation.
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As far as I’m concerned, they are just Taliban wannabes. Nothing more, nothing less, and the GOP, whatever is left of it after this, will continue to shrivel like Rush Limbaughs’ circulatory device…

53_3: I think I’m getting this “righteous indignation” stuff down pretty well. I try not to feed the trolls but the little guy just looked soooo hungry. Are there sub-headings under concern trolls? I did manage to avoid the F Bomb. Just between you and me…IF my kid sat next to his kid, my kid would be eating his kid’s lunch and making him cry.

He souldn’t have liked my kids, either, sacredh.
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That’s besides the fact that they are, well, uh, brown…

“Are there sub-headings under concern trolls?”
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Cyberoida dexyoptera
…..fauxempithinae
………spp. concurritans
………spp. diverticulara
………spp. empithada (nominate species)
………spp. bifilingua

This thread brought out more trolls than any other I can remember. I wonder if they were just lurkers like I was before I finally joined in last fall or if the were just hitting all the news sites trying to steer the discussion? Most of the time I just ignore them but once in awhile I find myself hoping they’re not breeders.

Pro-lifers are 59.5% of abortion clinic clientele. They just cross state lines so their neighbors don’t know about it.

Pro-lifers are 59.5% of abortion clinic clientele.

sacred:
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Did you notice that they only come out late at night to drink? Most of the worst appeared between about 2 AM and 5 AM.
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Nocturnal creeps…

53_3: I have wondered if they’re shift workers like me or booze hounds banished to the couch for the night. I’ve also thought they might be a strange breed of political refugees that have had their country taken away from them by a changing America and now suffer from insomnia. They could very well feel hopeless and trapped. The country is changing before their eyes and somewhere in the back of their minds they know it’s probably for good. If the roles were reversed and the country was taking a hard turn to the right, the democratic party was being led by clowns seemingly bent on self destruction and the party was down to 20%, I’d be more than a little upset too. As it stands, their fear and rantings are like a warm bed on a cold night to me. You just want to snuggle down and enjoy it.

Four pages. Pretty impressive.

You can find the biggest clown in politics down in Crawford Texas. Probably the guy who ordered the hit.

Quite alot of hysteria going on here since Tiller was shot and killed. I just wonder since justice was never given the chance in Tillers case, and he broke the Kansas law on a daily basis that the killer decided to take matters into his own hands?
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I am not a pro-life or a pro-abortion finatic, but what Tiller did was wrong. What this killer did was equally wrong as well. Over 60,000 late term abortions were performed by this mad-man. Condoning his actions and choices are equal to condoning the likes of Hilter and other mass murderers of human-kind.
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Perhaps it is our justice system that needs to also be very closely looked at as well. Tiller made millions of dollars off of women, at about $5000.00 dollars a pop. He was one of 3 late term doctors who routinely performed late-term abortions.
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While I do not justify and equally condemn the man who murdered Tiller. I can’t help but wonder if this is God’s vengence on a man who had total disregard for human life as well. Both men will meet their maker one day. Then and only then will the true reality of all this become known.
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Obama would do abortion justice if he offered an amendment that prohibited all abortions after the 1st trimester unless 2 doctors confirmed the mother’s life was in danger. I think it would be very simple and to the point. And, perhaps one of the next 60,000 late term babies might just grow up to save millions.

I just wonder since justice was never given the chance in Tillers case, and he broke the Kansas law on a daily basis that the killer decided to take matters into his own hands?
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*Sigh* sometimes I think you’re better than this then you pull out cwap like this Rusty. Tiller acted within the restraints of Kansas and federal law. Period. What he did was help untold women across this country who were facing a horrific choice. He was acquitted by a Kansas jury of any criminal violations. Why should I think you would be above spitting upon the dead? The man was murdered in a church, doesn’t that enrage you RustyDog? The killer soiled a house of God. And you’ll see his actions as somehow righteous. I’m ignoring you from now on. I see your name it will be as if you never spoke. Good-bye.

[...] over 24 weeks than anyone else currently practicing in the Western Hemisphere, Need a source? George TillerMurdered – Swampland – TIME.com Sealacamp __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 [...]

Abortion isn’t just about birth control failures, careless women and girls, and sex. It’s demonised as that by those who want to control women and who dislike women’s sexuality, in my opinion.

Abortion is often about the least-worst option. No-one is “pro” abortion. But those of us who realise that life isn’t black and white also realise that some pregnancies can’t continue.

Women facing the emotional nightmare of a diagnosis that their babies have terrible problems should be treated with compassion, love, and understanding.

I had an abortion, 2 years before I got pregnant with my now 3, coming up to 4, year old son.

I suffered from an ectopic pregnancy. That’s where the implantation doesn’t happen as it should (in the womb) but happens somewhere else – the cervix, tubes, etc.

If not treated urgently, there is still no chance of a baby, but there is every chance of the mother suffering severe pain, blood loss, rupture, all kinds of lovely things.

Murder? No. 5 years on, I still regret it – but I regret that it happened that the foetus didn’t implant in the right place. I regret that baby couldn’t be born. I don’t regret protecting my own life and health when there wouldn’t be a baby anyway.

Or what of a woman who finds out, at 25 weeks, that her much-wanted child has no brain? What sort of monster would force a woman to go through another 15 weeks of pregnancy for no avail?

Women don’t have abortions for the sheer fun of it. Like life in general, the issue of abortion is a messy, chaotic, scary one. Black and white answers might make you feel good, but so what? Life is about infinite shades of grey.

So much of the strident, aggressive anti-abortion movement is, I’m convinced, about being anti-women. Independent, strong women scare some men. Chaining and catagorising women by their reproduction ties them down a bit more.

I tell you what the abortion issue needs. It needs some empathy, some compassion, some charity, some love. It doesn’t need “all abortion is murder!” rhetoric, which is simplistic to the point of idiocy.

[...] fantasy peddling or just into one-lane conspiracy theories etc. You are most likely to do THIS: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009…ller-murdered/ or THIS: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090602/…ecruiters_shot or end up like these four with a [...]

This could very well be the single largest rout I’ve ever had the displeasure of viewing. You sissy liberals have mobbed my conservative friends, as usual, and I find it funny. You guys think you’re so cool because you haven’t bought into the establishment and devoted yourself to some deity, because apparently it makes you feel better to be insignificant and turn to nothingness when you die, wowy, call me when the party starts. And, as always, my fellow conservatives bring up points only valid at a church group meeting. The only people I’ve been impressed with are the people who have spoken from experience and really made this personal, not a bible quote, or a hippy wannabe attempt at individualism. Keep up the good work.

I’m glad they finally got this POS…and for all you religion haters out there, I’m an atheist. Don’t believe the BS that he was only performing late term abortions to save the life of the mother or on deformed fetuses…he was killing defenseless babies for $$. No babies are dying at his hands today are they????? Na-na-na-na Hey Hey Good bye!!!!

Imagine being sucked up by a vacuum cleaner, powerful enough to break your body into little pieces. That is what I saw on a sonogram of a suction abortion (on Youtube, check it out). It was horrible to see an unborn baby torn apart by suction abortion. That baby never had a choice to live, so much for “pro-choice”! It’s not considered murder since it is legal, but it is STILL killing. It’s a horrible procedure that tortures and kills unborn babies. That is the whole truth, and it’s ugly!

As far as the death of George Tiller, it was murder (shot in a church, how horrible!). I don’t agree with what he did for a living, but it was wrong to kill him. Violence never solves anything. My condolences to his family, the man who murdered him needs to face justice.

edfromstl, I think your next in line for a late term abortion.
I wish. What a POS.

It is disgusting when the death of a person, controversial or not, brings glee and incites ingorant banter and horrible catch phrases (Bill O’Reilly). George Tiller was an amazing person. He was kind, gentle and positive. He stepped up when other people, believers even, did not have the wherewithal to do so and even in the face of danger, he committed his life to helping not only those pregnant women facing distress, but their significant others and most importantly their babies. What people like Bill O’Reilly and other religious zealots do not think about — mostly because they have jammed their brains so full of rhetoric that there is not capacity for tolerance, let alone understanding — is that the women they are so ready to demonize most likely did not want to be there or to even meet Dr. Tiller. Did you ever wonder why they had a sudden change of heart at the 25 or 32 week mark? Did it ever occur to them that these women were committed to the pregnancy but something went awfully wrong? If the patients that seek late-term abortions actually need one, I bet they never intended on aborting. In fact, if the pregnancy was viewed as flippantly as the opposition wants us to believe then why weren’t these pregnancies terminated well before the 21 week mark? Precisely. Use some common sense people. Dr. George Tiller provided a service, dedicated his life, and lived his life in almost a servitude to women in distress. He is not the person who developed the legislation and he certainly didn’t make it easy to undergo a late-term abortion. As with everything in life, especially controversial things, there is a process and plenty of red-tape. The ignorant, militant anti-choice zealots should stop and think that Tiller helped people and in several cases probably alleviated a short lifetime of exceptional pain and misery for these babies.

Edfromstl —– reflect on your morals. You are happy a man died, but against killing? Obviously, you must view abortion as a step less than murder if it is alright to murder a man that performed late-term abortions. Get some education, some enlightenment. Ha! Direct from me to you…

Hey un-enlightened…you really must be a dolt. There is no moral equivalence between the death of a cold blooded murderer and an innocent child. And to answer your pathetic reply, I have a master’s degree from a top 20 school. You need to break through the ignorance of your blind liberalism and understand the difference between right and wrong. By the way….George is still dead and I am still joyful.

[...] ecstatic to hear that George Tiller is finally in hell. Far be it from us to condemn the actions of his killer, or vigilantism in general. Never was a [...]

[...] so far as to request that DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano resign. But that was before we had the murder of Dr. George Tiller by an anti-abortion activist. Then we had Tiller’s murderer warning of more of these sorts of attacks and today, we have a [...]