Obama to Visit Landstuhl

Can we assume that the Republicans won’t take any cheap shots at his visit this time?
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/Snark

Oh, KT, you are such a kidder!

No.

KT: LOL. We can assume that they will be taking cheap shots. Since you’re in a joking mood…can we please have a 1000 Words tommorow? Something we can really rip into would be nice.

Got any pictures of a drunk Amy?

sacredh: will keep an eye out. also, will put up another slansky index if i get it, so start thinking of index items.

Bless you KT. I just started a two week working vacation so I’m ready to rip and tear.

I think we can safely assume that they’ll absolutely have something nasty to say. They can’t help themselves.

” Can we assume that the Republicans won’t ..”
No. Let us get the word straight from the horse’s, eh, newt’s, eh, elephant’s mouth.
Lets ask their leader, Rush “the 20th” Limbaugh.

Can we assume the White House chose the timing intentionally to remind us of the first non-trip?

Speaking of Rush, here’s Balloon Juice: Their own personal Jesus

KT: at some point it would be nice to see the President stepping down from AF 1 on to Landstuhl airbase. We should have a caption contest then. Thanks in advance.

Here’s what factcheck has to say about it: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/snubbing_wounded_troops.html

I’m sure Obama will screw this up and insult the troops by getting his haircut on the tarmac.

sacredh Says:
” Got any pictures of a drunk Amy? “

Leave the bible gal alone. What are you trying to do – send her scurrying back into that monastery far from the madding crowd?

Here’s what factcheck has to say about it: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/snubbing_wounded_troops.html
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And that article basically confirms that the Landstuhl attack was a cheap shot by McCain. Thanks, spob!

How does this fit into his radical left-wing socialist agenda? Is he going to stop by Saudi Arabia first for a quick bow down? How much of our tax dollars is this tax and spend commie and his sleeveless, unpatiotic, angry black wife going to throw away on this trip? After he’s done trampling the constitution the least he can do is visit the military he is intent on destroying.
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Sorry if I stole anybody’s thunder.

I think you forgot the dejon. I’m sure he will asked for some of that too.

cfukara: I don’t think we need to worry about that. It’s always the really quiet ones that surprise you. I can imagine spiked heels, a leather teddy and a riding crop. Gotta go now.

Sacred, your fantasies are making their way into print once again! You’re gonna get Amy all hot and bothered and believe me you don’t want to get a “good girl” on a mission to be “bad”. They’re the worst ones.
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Gunny, my apologies for the omission.

darius: And that article basically confirms that the Landstuhl attack was a cheap shot by McCain. Thanks, spob! And here is what is interesting. I can’t imagine spob linking to that if he thought it would be favorable to Obama. He linked to it. It was favorable to Obama. But spob couldn’t see that?
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Kinda takes me back to that research showing conservatives double down on what they believe to be true when confronted with new, objective facts that challenge their beliefs.
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Spob, help us out here. What did you think the link demonstrated?

If by “worst” you mean “best”, I agree. The wildest girl I ever met was a preacher’s daughter. That young lady was on a mission.

My father was a preacher. I cannot disagree with anything you say. If it wasn’t for church kids I’d probably still be a sober virgin.

I happen to agree with the assessment that it was a cheap shot. I think Obama should have made the visit and taken the hit. He got people’s hopes up and then let them down. Maybe understandable, but still a mistake.
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But no one seriously thinks that Obama was deliberately trying to offend the troops or that he was callously “snubbing” them to shoot hoops.

Spob, help us out here. What did you think the link demonstrated?
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Great, now he has to go and actually read the link he threw up there. Gaining a solid understanding of what you’re talking $h!t about wastes precious time that you could spend talking more $h!t. Any Republican that does extensive research quickly ceases to be a Republican.

spob: not sure how high their hopes had gotten, as the trip was not on the schedule and hadn’t been announced until the last minute. (the night before, if i recall correctly.) but i see the argument about how maybe he should have gone anyway. i couldn’t make up my mind on that, as to which hit was worse. but i can tell you, based on conversations with people who seemed to have a pretty clear idea what he was thinking when he made the call not to go, he figured he was going to get his either way, and it was better not to get the troops involved.

Spob, fair response. Thanks.
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Do you think that anyone seriously thought that, by visiting, he would have been using the troops for publicity, given that he had a track record of visiting wounded troops privately? If not, wasn’t it McCain’s craven tactic that created a situation that let the wounded troops down? Seems to me that Obama was acting out of an abundance of caution that his visit not be misconstrued.

Where Obama the candidate was callous in refusing to visit our wounded warriors, the GOP will now take up the Obama campaign’s argument that a visit (with Obama now POTUS) would be too “stressful” and an “inconvenience.”

http://www.political-buzz.com/

some: Any Republican that does extensive research quickly ceases to be a Republican.
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Only with links in the reality-based community. Repugs can do extensive research in their own private reality, and link to it like crazy, and never challenge a single belief.

wvng, “abundance of caution”?? Come on. Obama should have made the visit, taken the hit. Moreover, didn’t McCain;’s ad come after the fact? And KT, I wasn’t aware of details of when announcement was made, but certainly after the fact, people would have been disappointed. In any event, we’re splitting hairs here. Obama made a mistake and McCain took a cheap shot. Of course, Obama took plenty of them so I don’t exactly feel sorry for him.

wasn’t it McCain’s craven tactic
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We would do well to remember, McCain lost.
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The amount of time McCain spent running against the fictitious cartoon Barack Obama, was time he could have spent engaging the real one to much better effect,

In case anyone has forgotten, KT was aboard the campaign plane at the time. I’m inclined to trust her judgment significanly more than other observers at the time.

I think Obama should have made the visit and taken the hit.
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WTF are you blabbering about, Spob? It is, in fact, ILLEGAL to campaign on military bases. Obama didn’t avoid the appearance of making a campaign stop because it would be bad politics. He did it because it would be improper. And, by doing the right thing, he did “take a hit”.
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I’m sorry that some soldiers may have been disappointed, but their disappointment is not worth weakening the principle that they not be used as political props.
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I know this is a concept that is foreign to the GOP. In the past 8 years, GOP politicians have repeatedly encouraged soldiers and sailors to violate the law forbidding appearances at campaign events while in uniform. Fortunately, Obama has more respect for both the laws and principles covering this type of behavior.

sqr1, are you a moron? Obama could have made the visit in his capacity as a Senator–but just no reporters and no political advisers.

Guys, I’ll ask those who are usually against me to come down hard on this troll. I am not wrong here, and I have even answered questions that were insulting to me.

PD: In fairness to McCain, he had little chance of beating Obama, regardless of how he campaigned.
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I agree with the sentiment that Bush defeated McCain twice: First in 2000. And then in 2008.
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McCain needed to be 4-5 inches taller, 10-15 years younger, and 20-30 IQ points higher. Oh, and have an actual record of going against his party in the past decade.

i think spob does have an argument. it is an entirely debatable question whether obama should have made the visit. what i don’t think is debatable (and what i think spob agrees with) is that it was a cheap shot for mccain to put out an ad saying he didn’t visit because he wanted to play basketball instead. double irony was that the basketball shot used in the ad was one of him PLAYING BASKETBALL WITH THE TROOPS in kuwait.

Your both right.
It’s a floor wax AND a desert topping.
Several points.
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1 – spob is right that Obama could have visited in his capacity as a Senator.
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2 – sqr1 is right that the GOP and BushCo in particular were notorious for using uniformed troops as campaign props in direct violation of regs.
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but were not mentioning #3
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Someone in the Pentagon was effing with the candidate by not making the rules of the visit clear to the campaign until the plane was down and the schedule was published.

Maybe its just me, but arguing over this truly minor incident is friggin insane. Politics is a rough game. Always has been. Campigning is even rougher. But once the dust settles its over. You can call cheap shots and fouls till the cows come home and it won’t make a friggin bit of difference because the war is over. One side one and one side lost. Dregging the pond for minor miscues from the past I guess is a pretty good way to not deal with the present.

sqr1, are you a moron? Obama could have made the visit in his capacity as a Senator–but just no reporters and no political advisers.
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I, a poor moron, do not have your brilliant legal acumen to guide me. I have to use what I call “common sense”. What my “common sense” tells me is that the campaign would not have scheduled the visit unless Obama wanted to go. And they would not have canceled the visit unless they were concerned that a political trip could not properly be magically converted into an official visit merely by leaving the press and military advisors off the airbase.
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Were they right? I don’t know. I don’t profess to be an expert in this area of the law. Clearly it is too bad that they didn’t have you as the legal consultant.
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However, “common sense” tells me that they either got misleading information from the Pentagon, the campaign’s legal advisors recommended against the visit, or (quite likely) they were unable to get a conclusive legal analysis in Germany on such short notice. And the erred on the side of not breaking the law.

the war is over. One side one and one side lost.
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It is nevertheless helpful to be reminded of just how much the landscape has changed since those heady days before Barack Hussein Obama was the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces Of The United States Of America.

Obama should have visited the troops even though he had visted the troops before.
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McCain should not have run the ad even though everyone knows that campaigns from all political parties have and will continue to run deceptive and cheap shot ads during every election that has ever been or will be held.
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Lets judge these 2 men for the rest of their lives over this issue. Maybe we should all meet this same time next year and relive it once more. Sorry I can’t make it. I have a life.

I agree. I think it is the height of ridiculosity that only this particular president should be pilloried for such minor “offenses”, given that every other president indulged themselves in more than a few photo-ops.
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I guess, in the minds of some, Obama really is a janitor, sent to the Oval Office only to clean up after the last tenants, not to be seen or heard.

and yet, gunny, you’re here. you just can’t quit us.

“and yet, gunny, you’re here. you just can’t quit us.”
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KT-You always see through me. I’m secretly lovin this!

“what i don’t think is debatable (and what i think spob agrees with) is that it was a cheap shot for mccain to put out an ad saying he didn’t visit because he wanted to play basketball”
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spob agrees that it was a cheap shot. The bottom line is that the ad’s metamessage was that Obama was indifferent to the troops. And that’s not a fair characterization.
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sqr1, wow, you backpedal fast. First of all, the Pentagon advised Obama that he could come and set the conditions (no press, no retired two-star). So there was no analysis, plus he had previously visited the troops before. Second of all, Obama didn’t make the visit because he didn’t want to take the hit, not because they thought it illegal.
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pwned.
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Stop leading with your chin, sqr1. I have a big right hand, and I like to use it.

Well I suppose a year later is better than never. Have to give him that I guess.

I have a big right hand, and I like to use it.
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Yea your posts are basically masturbation, I’ll agree with that.

Self-evaluation. Inadvisable, comical or downright delusional?
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We report, you decide.

I have a big right hand, and I like to use it.
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By all means, continue.

Alternatively:
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I have a big right hand, and I like to use it.
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Did you learn how to use it in the Navy?

Guys, I have clowned sqr1. Get that right. The “legal issue” was a figment of his imagination. The Pentagon told the Obama campaign what needed to be done–no press, no retired two-star–so that he could make the visit. Obama got cold feet, not because of legal entanglements, but because he didn’t want the visit to be perceived as “political”. (Note, “political” is not a synonym for “campaigning”.)

sqr1, I think he likes you.

Obama didn’t make the visit because he didn’t want to take the hit, not because they thought it illegal.
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Now you’ve totally lost me. Under the regulations, a politician is not allowed to make an appearance that can be perceived as campaigning rather than official work. Your claim is that by leaving behind his military advisors and the media, Obama would be complying with the regulations. I dispute that that is clear (and that it was clear to the Obama campaign at the time they had to make the decision). But fine. Not a campaign event.
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Okay, then, what “hit” was Obama going to take? If he wasn’t going to be accused of politicizing the troops and it clearly wasn’t against the law then why would Obama be attacked for anything?
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At least McCain gave an explanation for Obama’s behavior (i.e. he doesn’t care about the troops and would rather play basketball). Your explanation makes no sense.
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I have a big right hand, and I like to use it.
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Yeah, well, at the rate you are going, you better bring a big box of Kleenex.

Guys, I have clowned sqr1. Get that right.
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I don’t know what’s going to cause more shoulder damage, you stroking yourself with your big right hand or you slinging that thing around to pat yourself on the back.
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Shorter spob: “I love me some me!”

Obama got cold feet, not because of legal entanglements, but because he didn’t want the visit to be perceived as “political”. (Note, “political” is not a synonym for “campaigning”.)
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Thank you for clarifying. I find your explanation absurd and ungrounded in reality (Obama has privately visited troops on other occasions without incident, complaint, or allegations of “politicization”). But it is what it is.

How f’in dense can you be, sqr1? First of all, Obama had visited troops before, so did something suddenly become illegal that hadn’t been before????? Second of all, SFB, the Pentagon TOLD Obama what he needed to do in order to visit the wounded, i.e., lose the press and lose the two-star. He chose not to. That’s fine, but the issue was not whether it was legal, the Pentagon certainly can interpret its own regs and can advise politicians about troop visits. The Pentagon said, in effect, do this and you’re ok. Read the f’in Fact Check link.
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As for what hit, read the Fact Check link. Gibbs said they didn’t want it perceived as political. But they didn’t worry about it being illegal if they had complied with Pentagon’s request.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/snubbing_wounded_troops.html

Following links from links brings us to this piece.
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http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/25/obama-skips-visit-with-troops/
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As noted, the Pentagon had approved the visit two weeks prior and then abruptly raised concerns on Wednesday for a visit scheduled Friday. Not only did the ad itself cantain two falsehoods but it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that there was coordination between the McCain campaign and the Wednesday phone call in the first place.
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As I noted upthread, the atmosphere was pretty different back before Obama became CinC.

sqrl writes:
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However, “common sense” tells me that they either got misleading information from the Pentagon, the campaign’s legal advisors recommended against the visit, or (quite likely) they were unable to get a conclusive legal analysis in Germany on such short notice. And the erred on the side of not breaking the law.
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My memories here are a bit vague, but as I recall, they had gone to the Pentagon and gotten the impression that it was okay for him to go with Gration (campaign adviser, who was also a retired general). then, right as they were about to go, they got some kind of signal that there was some kind of objection. There were those in the campaign who thought someone in the McCain campaign had gone to the Pentagon and objected, but (as I recall) they had no proof. At least none that they were willing to share with me.

Let’s get past this. The Man won. He is set to visit Landstuhl as C-in-C: that’s much better. Perhaps he should invite McCain to accompany him! and the two McCain Amigos? That would be a picture worth seeing.

spob:
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I’m speechless!

bitterpill8:
He should invite Joe The Plumber, too! Sarah Palin can cook.

He is set to visit Landstuhl as C-in-C:
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Actually the theory that there still might be tension between the White House and the Pentagon helps explain a lot of Obama’s current actions that make less sense without any potential undercurrents. Just because he’s CinC doesn’t mean that there can never be effort to undermine his command or that he’s unaware that he relies heavily on the cooperation of people who were rooting rather forcefully against him in the not very distant past.

Listening for big right hand…
fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap….

The objection was to Gration coming along . . . . If Gration was left behind, then no issue.

PD:
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I honestly don’t see a problem with Obama backing away from visiting the hospital at that time. Right at that particular time, they were on Obama for being too quick to “anoint himself” as President. With the miscue about the seal on his podium, I think it was a very smart move. Of course, they could always (and still are) creating faux-outrage over the “snubbing”.
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Interesting is how the titles of the two articles posted above about the same event are 180 degrees apart on how they are intended to be percieved.
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It makes sense to me, after all, the GOP has so far sided with those who make it very clear that they wanted Obama to fail.

Phew! Thought thread was dead.

Gunny, if anything will keep this thread alive it’s Amy making another Catholic post on top of it. This topic is of little interest anyway, making it exponentially more interesting than anything Amy has to say.

Spob, you’re entire argument is premised on the assumptions that (a) the Pentagon’s version of what they told the Obama campaign was accurate and (b) the Pentagon gave the Obama campaign correct guidance on the law.
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In fact, I question both of those assumptions. Based on what KT recalls and what Gibbs said after the fact, there is strong evidence that the Pentagon gave different guidance than they later claimed. Gibbs said that, beyond the presence of Gen. Gration and the media, the Pentagon told them that the use of the campaign plane and campaign staffers made it a campaign stop. I assume that you will claim (without evidence) that Gibbs is lying and the Pentagon is telling the truth. But that isn’t an argument.
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As to the second point, you have failed to substantiate that, in fact, all Obama had to do was to “lose the press and lose the two-star.” My understanding — and I never claimed expertise here — is that the regulations are far more grey. But you seem to be the expert. So, what prey tell are you relying on for that assertion? Anything beyond the Pentagon’s spokesperson?

sqr1, how ’bout I just rely on what Obama said (as reported by fact-check).
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“Obama: And we got notice that [Gration] would be treated as a campaign person, and it would therefore be perceived as political because he had endorsed my candidacy but he wasn’t on the Senate staff. That triggered then a concern that maybe our visit was going to be perceived as political.”
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Note he said “perceived as”. Also note that he said nothing about possible illegality or anything like that. And as for Gration, the solution is implied in Obama’s statement, i.e., lose him. And since Obama wasn’t planning on taking press along . . . .
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And there’s nugget from fact-check:

“We note here that Obama might still have gone on the visit, leaving Gration behind and accompanied only by Secret Service security. But with or without Gration, there would have been no news reporters or news photographers to record the visit.”

Whatever the political spin put on it, I am sure that the soldiers he visits will be delighted. Mission accomplished. Wish I were there.

Paul Dirks Says:

” … KT was aboard the campaign plane at the time. I’m inclined to trust her judgment significantly more than other observers at the time. “
Trust warily. Do you remember that the poor gal was dehydrated and delusional at the ruins in the hot desert of Jordan – for lack of a cold soda? She may not have fully recovered yet for the European leg of the tour. [My kingdom for a cold soda, shouted KT - almost!]

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Paul Dirks Says:

“.. Obama could have visited in his capacity as a Senator.”
BHO visited Afghanistan as a senator. The European part of the tour was financed by his campaign.
Why give those Repugs a half truth to stand on?

53.3: Great idea. Add Todd and the DUO: oh wait that might not work out so well. Bristol may be okay but the ex????

You know what: I am thrilled by the irony. Pres Obama is going to visit our troops and our wounded at Landstuhl. That is simply great because he can thank them for their service in person.

P.D. @ 56: I note your point: but the C-in-C will be visiting. No matter what, our service men and women always salute their C-in-C and get about their business. They are committed to honoring the office.

bitterpill8:
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Why not bring the ex? The more the merrier! Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead! Onward and upward! Stay the course! Bunk ‘em together in a different hotel, the same one that Rush and McNabb are going to be bunked together in.
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It’s ok, though. The Secret Service will surround their billets and be prepared to carry out any bodies…