What If No One Is Lying? And Is It a Crime?

Maybe the CIA wasn’t lying then, and Nancy Pelosi isn’t now. This has been my own theory of the case in this contretemps. But I’ve never been in one of these top-secret briefings. Former Congressman Martin Frost has, and gives us a little flavor of how they work:

I was not in the room when Pelosi was briefed. However, as Democratic Caucus chairman, I did preside (along with Republican Conference Chairman J.C. Watts) over a joint meeting of the Democratic Caucus and the Republican Conference shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, during which the CIA briefed us in a closed session.
The deputy director of the CIA gave a long, rambling account of the events leading up to the Sept. 11 attacks. At the completion of his remarks, I exercised the prerogative of the chair and asked the first question.

I can recall almost the exact words that I used 7½ years ago. I asked, “Mr. Director, I listened very carefully to what you said. Do I understand correctly that the CIA tracked three of the terrorists [who conducted the Sept. 11 attacks] into the United States and turned them over to the FBI, and then the FBI lost track of them?” His reply to my direct question was a simple, “Yes.”

This information was subsequently made public, so I am not now disclosing something that isn’t in the public domain.

My point is that the CIA (and other government agencies and departments) sometimes talk in “official speak,” which is not entirely clear to members of Congress participating in a briefing. Unless members of Congress are listening very closely, and unless they ask follow-up questions, they don’t always get a clear picture of what’s going on. If asked a specific, direct question, government officials will give a specific, direct answer, as the deputy director did to my question that day.

It is certainly possible that the folks at the CIA, on Sept. 4, 2002, thought they had given Pelosi a full picture of what was actually happening, and it is also possible that Pelosi did not wade through the bureaucratic language and ask a specific follow-up question.

Meanwhile, the Republicans keep hammering away at the idea that Pelosi is accusing the CIA of committing a crime. “Lying to congress is a crime. Purposely misleading congress is a crime,” John Boehner has told us over and over again.

But is it? Would the Justice Department really prosecute a CIA official in a circumstance like this? I’ve asked a few smart people, and they say … probably not. “It’s a long distance from a casual misstatements or misleading statements to a crime,” says attorney Stanley Brand, a veteran of these kinds of cases. “Intent is a very important element.” A former high-ranking Justice Department official, who spoke on the condition he not be named, said that while this kind of misstatement could be construed as a violation of 18 USC 1001, “prosecutions of this sort are very, very, very, very rare, and would require proof of ‘knowing’ and ‘willing’ falsehood.”

UPDATE: Meanwhile, Congressman Dave Obey informs the CIA that its record-keeping isn’t perfect.

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  • rustyreturns

    “Maybe the CIA wasn’t lying then, and Nancy Pelosi isn’t now.”
    .
    And, “maybe” when pigs fly we might get down to the bottom of the entire fiascal, including transcripts of when and what Nancy knew about all of it.
    .
    I for one am very tired of the whole she said, he said. The we need to know who is and who isn’t telling the truth, what was determined at the time, and then we can move forward.
    .
    As usual, Karen is placating and covering up, rather than asking the questions, and demanding on behalf of the American public about the events. Had Woodward and Bernstein took your approach, Karen, we wouldn’t know today about Watergate.
    .
    If Drudge had not broke the story on Lewinsky and Clinton, this sordid affair would not be known.
    .
    It is simple Karen, just do you job. If you don’t want to, move out of the way and let someone else do it for you.

  • sacredh

    KT: Thanks for the article. You may have hit the nail on the head. The CIA could very easily have mentioned waterboarding but not come right out and said they were practicing it. They might have believed that by bringing up waterboarding that they were saying it was being used. It’s not like they volunteer information and spell everything out. If Pelosi didn’t actually ask if they were waterboarding captives, they might have felt no obligation to say that they were. This could be their version of “If you don’t ask, I’m not going to tell”.

  • rustyreturns

    And, perhaps you do not find holding your representatives accountable Karen, a high priority. I personally find lying in this case a more severe action. Had you added lying to the possible “torture” meme, then hands down I would be calling out Bush and Co for their actions.
    .
    There are certain expectations that Americans have, or at least a few of us have and that is the expectation that our representatives are honest, fair, and keep our best interests at heart.
    .
    Pelosi’s integrity is in great question, and I strongly support anyone who will question her on what she knew, when she knew it. Or, is this just more of the political game, and if she is now against the tactics used in 2003 to 2006, show us where she spoke out against it as she is vehemently doing now.
    .
    This woman is 3rd in line for the Presidency. You cannot cover that fact up Karen, no matter how hard you try.
    .
    Stop the flip flopping, and tell the truth Nancy. Say what you mean and mean what you say. It is easy to do, and you will have the respect of the American people for doing so.

  • afguy

    This could be their version of “If you don’t ask, I’m not going to tell”.
    .
    To use an example from the past in the auto industry, does this mean that Ford was blameless for failing to correct or notify the public about the fuel tank defect in the Pinto, that it was simply the fault of the buyer for not asking if the fuel tank design was faulty?
    .
    After all, I can’t prove they intentionally withheld that information? It MAY have been a simple mistake.
    .
    Give me a break.
    .
    That rationale could be used to justify giving only the most rudimentary of briefings. Just say “We have a program”. It’s YOUR fault if you don’t know to ask the right questions to be able to flesh it out.
    .
    Where would it stop, Karen?

  • Karen Tumulty

    afguy: i do think that frost has a point, that sometimes politicians and bureaucrats speak two different languages.

  • rustyreturns

    Update: The same Dave Obey, who had this recently added to his record.
    .
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/29/stimulus-includes-plum-lawmakers-son/

  • sacredh

    KT: I read in your update that the CIA had listed a man as attending the briefing when in fact he did not. Isn’t this proof that the CIA has lied? I’m certain this is the first time they had EVER released erroneous information. I demand a full congressional investigation. The very future of our nation depends on getting to the bottom of this scandal. Heads should roll.

  • kbanginmotown

    It would indeed be a positive step forward if a special investigator were appointed to find out what Pelosi knew and when she knew it.
    .
    Of course, since it involves the CIA’s use of torture to obtain “confessions”, the special prosecutor would have to call in about 3/4 of the Bush administration to testify. And this whole process might drag out for several years, perhaps taking on the appearance of a “truth commission”. Perhaps charges will ultimately be filed, against Pelosi, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc., etc.
    .
    Sadly, such an investigation would be a flame for the MSM moths, who would stop reporting on efforts to turn the economy, health care and foreign policy around.

  • afguy

    i do think that frost has a point, that sometimes politicians and bureaucrats speak two different languages.
    .
    And my point would be that that’s intentional. I think both are quite capable of putting the information in terms that the other would understand if they wanted to be plain about it. (Remember Richard Feynman at the Challenger briefings? He found a way to make the arcane easy to understand.)
    .
    They can use the “language” difference to obscure and cover. And I have no doubt that, given the turf differences, they are quite willing to do so.

  • dwilli14

    Hi Karen,

    Not sure if you’ll notice my comment between rustyreturns’ righteous rambling, but I just wanted to say that I think your theory might be closer to the way this affair went down than anything else I’ve heard thus far. I’ve read alot about the history of the CIA, and something like what occurred above is not without precedent. Though I don’t think Nancy Pelosi helped herself much during that awful press conference.

  • gysgt213

    Consider:
    .
    1. What Nancy knew and when she knew its not the main issue here.
    .
    2. We would not be having this conversation to begin with if the law was not broken with respect to water boarding and that was the CIA. The CIA has destroyed evidence after it was requested by a Court Order. So if you think they are above misleading by omission or out and out lying you are kidding yourself.
    .
    3. If water boarding was effective or not is also not the issue here. It was against the law.
    .
    4. It does not matter if the CIA is lying or Nancy is lying. The CIA broke the law when it called in government contracters to water board.
    .
    5. Having said all that Nancy as a seasoned politician should not have allowed herself to be trapped by own self into saying that a government agency is lying at a news conference. Bad optics.

  • FlownOver

    Meanwhile, a lot of effort that should be directed at the actual story  (remember? Torture and its unlawful/political uses by the Bush Administration) is instead invested in this sidebar. Just what the Republicans and criminals (but I repeat myself) want.

  • afguy

    Karen,
    .
    I’m also worried that this “speaking different languages” will translate into “we just can’t understand what was done here- it’s too hard to explain so the common people can follow it” as a justification to drop any investigations and just “move on”.
    .
    With, of course, the obligatory promise to “never let this happen again”.

  • pierogielunaire

    Hey, I know! Let’s have a special prosecutor investigate who authorized torture, who tortured, who knew about, and who tried to cover it up later. Wouldn’t that be awesome? Personally, I’m not losing too much sleep over the idea that Pelosi might get swept away in the process, but the Republicans are just blowing smoke with what Pelosi knew when.

  • sacredh

    As a career government employee, I can say that the briefing was possibly nothing more than a CYA session. They briefed her on the minimum amount of information they could and felt that they had done as much as they NEEDED to. They may have answered Pelosi’s questions IF she had asked the right ones. She didn’t ask the right questions so now we have a she said/ he said situation. FlownOver is correct in saying that this isn’t the main story. We’re just trying to be convinced that this, and not the actual torture, is somehow the real story. Smoke and mirrors.

  • gysgt213

    People can go on and on about this stuff. One thing is clear. The law was broken. You can’t change the law with a secret memo. I understand people were scared and still are, but the fact remains the law was broken by the highest levels of our government.

  • afguy

    As a career government employee, I can say that the briefing was possibly nothing more than a CYA session. They briefed her on the minimum amount of information they could and felt that they had done as much as they NEEDED to.
    .
    sacredh,
    .
    Exactly right except, as far as I am concerned, you can drop the “possibly” modifier in the first sentence.
    .
    Been there. Give the minimum of information then, at a later date, say you would have given more information if they had asked. Circumstances just dictated that the briefing had to be abbreviated at that time. (Understand that I have to put my tongue firmly in my cheek to be able to type some of this crap with a straight face but I was military for 20 years and am well versed in governmentspeak.)

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    OR Maybe the intelligence report nor Panetta’s statement say what the media said it says. I have already went through both statements on another thread but one thing is clear, neither the intelligence report nor Panetta’s statement last week actually refute Speaker Pelosi. I would draw you to the memo from Panetta last week that said the CIA briefed “truthfully”. Notice what he didn’t add? The word “fully”. Also the word “description” is the key to understanding why neither document refutes Speaker Pelosi’s story. Further the CIA itself admitted that they could not assert that Speaker Pelosi had been briefed on Abu Zubaydah being waterboarded because the notes didn’t go that far. All of the links to the source material can be found here.
    .
    http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/2009/05/light-bulb-moment.html
    .
    So you see there is another reason why both the CIA now and Pelosi could both be telling the truth. Its because the CIA never said Pelosi was lying to begin with. That was just how the media reported on the report and on Panetta’s memo
    .
    I will also point out that so far the Republican in the meeting with Nancy Pelosi will not refute her account either. He will just say she “should have known” that they were using the techniques. And finally to top it off I will repost the link to the interview that Pete Hoekstra did Sunday with FoxNews where he backed off his position that Pelosi is lying after going to see the briefing records at the CIA.
    .
    http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=5121466&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/
    .
    And of course that goes along with 2 other Dems involved with briefings of this kind saying they too weren’t told about the EITs as described in the report. And now David Obey pointing out that the report infers something that didn’t happen.
    .
    So MY question instead is this, “What if the CIA was lying back then and the media instead chose to focus on Pelosi?”

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Insofar as Nancy Pelosi is calling for a thorough investigation and her critics may or may not be, I’d say the more details we learn, the better it is for everyone.
    .
    The fact that the media is obsessing over Pelosi however means that they have been successfully thrown off the scent of the actual story. Leave it to McClatchy to be the lone voice in the wilderness (as they also were in 2002-03) when it comes to actually following where the evididence leads:
    .
    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/68315.html
    .
    This entire situation is an exercise in Mass Distraction. First off, there is no doubt that the fact and content of the Congressional breifings of that period were in direct preparation for this moment. If we examine the voting records and statements of key Democrats during all the debate over FISA and the NSA spying programs, it’s clear that they and the administration shared knowlege that made the Dems vulnerable if they chose to buck the administrations obvious interest in keeping their illegal activity under the radar.
    .
    Under that circumstance, Pelosi’s current behavior is puzzling, but if it leads to Dems and Rebublicans all agreeing that we should decassify as much information as possible from the 02-03 period, then that can ONLY be regarded as a good thing.

  • cdrwayne

    When the republican apologists agree to a “Truth Commission” that has the power to indict those who ordered torture, as well as those who new that torture was being conducted and did nothing about it, then and only then will I believe that they are seeking the truth and not using Nancy Pelosi as a smoke screen.
    .
    So KT if you and your fellow villagers really want to get to the bottom of this story start asking the republicans and democrats if they want a “Truth Commission and when they say no ask why and publish their responses.

  • rustyreturns

    As I said, lying, cheating, stealing and other various sorts of corrupt behavior is apalling. But, when it is a democrat, you simply see people on here condoning the behavior.
    .
    She is a democrat, a very powerful democrat yet to boot. Karen is simply using the liberal MSM blatantly to cover up for her. It is that simple.

  • stuartzechman

    KT:
    .
    It is certainly possible that the folks at the CIA, on Sept. 4, 2002, thought they had given Pelosi a full picture of what was actually happening, and it is also possible that Pelosi did not wade through the bureaucratic language and ask a specific follow-up question.
    .
    At what point does it stop being the responsibility of the people doing the briefing to make the information they are providing understood, and become the responsibility of the person being briefed to understand what is provided?
    .
    This being the government and all, I would imagine that there would be a set of policies, guidelines or regulations spelling out the duties of the parties to official transfer of information, much like there exists for official secrecy. Do you know if that conjecture is true, or could you point us in the direction of someone who does?
    .
    After all, how can anybody say who “knew what, when” , if there is confusion over what “knew” means?
    .
    By the way, none of Pelosi’s problems have anything to do with the fact that these people committed crimes for which there needs be prosecution, no matter who becomes implicated in the process –something that the liberal base of the centrist-overtaken Democratic Party fully understands.

  • Karen Tumulty

    cdr: a truth commission, from what i understand, would be a forum for vetting, and would not have the power to indict anyone. only the justice department, with or without a special prosecutor, would do that. so this is a decision for the obama administration.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
    .
    projection: a defense mechanism where a person’s personal attributes, unacceptable or unwanted thoughts, and/or emotions are ascribed onto another person or people.

  • Karen Tumulty

    cdr: ironically, a truth commission might impede indictments, as we can presume people would demand some kind of immunity to testify.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    Neither the Democrats or Republicans can be trusted on this issue. We already know Obama wants to cover it up as well. What the people need is full disclosure, but it is difficult to see where and who will help them attain it. The media is almost completely useless when it comes to issues like this now.

  • sacredh

    afguy: Anyone who hasn’t actually worked for the government, especially military< may have a hard time understanding what a different kind of animal it really is. Years ago the head of our district was in charge when we were facing district wide layoffs. At a Q&A session he was directly asked hoe many paople in the foeld were looking at losing their jobs. He told us that NONE were. Two months later the layoff slips got delivered. They had been planned three months before. His official response? “The information was confidential. Officially…I wasn’t at liberty to disclose that information two months ago”. He flat out lied to us and yet in his own mind he had told us the truth. Military speak and the truth are two different things.

  • mrtoads

    1. The whole Pelosi thing is a transparent attempt to distract and derail any investigation by using the venerable “well, if you come after us, we’ll drag you in too” technique.
    2. The CIA briefing information is interesting, but I was wondering about the staffer question before – we keep seeing references to the staff members not being allowed to be briefed on these issues; why, then, are they listed? If they were there, how could these issues be addressed? If they were not there, why are they listed? I don’t understand.
    3. Torture is simply torture whether you call it HappyFuzzyBunnyFunFunFun sessions or not. The uproar is not going away, thank God, and maybe this will finally force a real invesitgation (although far more likely both sides will want to do show investigations to ‘calm the rabble down’). Personally, I want everybody involved hauled before a judge, regardless of party. God, I love Jesse Ventura; he may not be a great politician, but I’d vote for him for any office he chose to run after.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    a truth commission might impede indictments
    .
    Which handily explains the entire Kabuki.
    .
    Everything makes more sense if we assume that Nancy and the Republicans are coordinating their efforts.

  • bitterpill8

    When the CIA got an inquiry going on the Valerie Plame affair (Cheney-Scooter!) the Republicans accused the CIA of being infested with Liberals. Now, not surprisingly, the CIA is full of dedicated spies protecting our country, and the Republicans are getting their back.

    That Pelosi is awful on tv just allows Joe and Co at Morning Smoke to push this, followed by Noron, Mrs Greenspan and others. In the evening Ed, Olbermann and Rachel turn the debate the other way.

    This is Alice in Blunderland stuff. And the Village loves it. Through it all the fact that we torture has taken a backseat.

    Doesn’t make sense, but what a way to deal with news.

  • shepherdwong

    Whatever Pelosi was briefed on, it almost certainly left out certain, shall we say, important details – like certain torture conducted before Congress acted on new interrogation “guidelines”, the Vice President’s office directing the questioning of detainees for nonexistent links between Al Qaeda and Iraq, the promulgation of “gloves-off” detainee treatment throughout the military prison system, etc. So the CIA created and conducted a torture regime at the White House’s behest, kept some of that information secret from Congress and then leaked secret documents to take the political heat off of themselves (I’m shocked!) and in typical fashion, the Republicans started making up sh*t (because they couldn’t possibly know) to justify a partisan hissy fit against Pelosi.
    .
    Who’s lying? Who cares?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    And Rusty,
    For the record, I think almost everybody here agrees that if Nancy Pelosi is lying, we want to know about it complete with documentary evidence and timelines. People who put principles before team-membership happen to gravitate toward the Democrats, those who put team-membership first gravitate toward the Republicans.
    .
    It explains a lot of the talking past each other that happens when a Dem is implicated in a right-wing controversy.

  • Art Pepper

    Would the Justice Department really prosecute a CIA official in a circumstance like this?
    .
    Ha ha! That’s droll.
    .
    The GOP just assumes that Pelosi must be lying, because the CIA would never, ever, ever, ever, ever mislead Congress or the American people. Ever!
    .
    [T]he Republicans keep hammering away at the idea that Pelosi is accusing the CIA of committing a crime.
    .
    Yes, the crime of torture. Oh wait, I forgot. Torture isn’t a crime, it’s a policy dispute.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Jan Schakowsky announceed yesterday that an investigation has been initiated by a Republican into whether the CIA misled the Congress on an unrelated issue.
    .
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/30814272#30814272
    .
    Its at the 11:50 mark.
    .
    But yeah lets keep focusing on Pelosi’s credibility

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Oh and now the CIA is refusing to say whether or not Panetta was refuting Pelosi.
    .
    http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/cia-wont-say-whether-panetta-disputes-pelosi-claim-she-was-lied-to/

  • afguy

    From Zach Roth at TPM:

    That’s not just an issue of semantics. The former intel professional said that by using the term in the recently compiled document, the CIA was being “disingenuous,” trying to make it appear that the use of such techniques was part of a “formal and mechanical program.” In fact, said the former intel pro, it wasn’t until 2006 that — amid growing concerns about the program among some in the Bush administration — the EIT program was formalized, and the “enhanced interrogation techniques” were properly defined and given a name.

    Karen,
    .
    Saying the CIA is “being disingenuous” . . .
    .
    Is that another way of saying “may be lying”?
    .
    Just asking . . .
    .
    You have any opinion on the accuracy/ramifications of that?

  • Cliff

    A former high-ranking Justice Department official, who spoke on the condition he not be named, said that while this kind of misstatement could be construed as a violation of 18 USC 1001, “prosecutions of this sort are very, very, very, very rare, and would require proof of ‘knowing’ and ‘willing’ falsehood.”
    .
    Really? They asked for anonymity for that?
    .
    KT, would you be so kind as to find this missing official’s testicles and return them?

  • Cliff

    Sorry, that should be “official’s missing testicles”.

  • afguy

    I’ve always had a little difficulty wrapping my mind around this concept of merely being “disingenuous” as opposed to bald-faced lying.
    .
    But I think I’ve got it now.
    .
    If I tell you 2+2=5, I’m lying. If I tell you that 2+2 is about equal to the number of fingers on your right hand, then the discussion changes over to “is the thumb a finger” and all sorts of other smoke. But everyone understands the answer I intended for you to deduce.
    .
    There is a law against lying under oath. It’s called perjury. There’s nothing on the books against “being disingenuous”.
    .
    OK, got it.
    .
    Think the wife would understand if I tell her I’m going down to the local store next to the bar but just happen to stay in the bar? I didn’t really lie, I was just “being disingenuous” or misleading.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Anybody else watching Steele say GOP change is coming in a teabag?

  • pippapippa

    Well, we know that Congress never prosecutes “lying to Congress,” or most of Bush’s officials would be in jail, not to mention Bush himself, who never gave a truthful State of the Union message.

    Anyway, it’s all suddenly become about Pelosi, and come on. Is the media really going to run off in that direction? It’s been revealed yet again– how many times does this “Scoop” have to happen before the MSM takes note– that the point of torture was to force detainees to confess to a link between Hussein and bin Laden, a link that didn’t exist, therefore a false confession that led to a false justification for a war that has killed many thousands? That’s the real story… and yet somehow the MSM is jumping to the completely discredited Bushies’ tune. What will it take for Time to decide that Bush authorizing torture to justify a lie is just a bit more important than whether Pelosi learned what when, considering she had NO power anyway, and whatever happened happened without any input from her?

    I’m amazed, amazed, that the MSM doesn’t notice that the Bush people and their remainders in the RNC have been trying for years to demonize Pelosi, and here’s another attempt, one that also helps divert from the horrors of reality, that the US tortured, and moreover, probably KILLED detainees– unarmed prisoners, many of whom were probably innocent of whatever crime the torture was trying to prove– and that torture was used to bolster hatred and a war that has harmed this nation in many ways. And the MSM just falls in with this– and I know what you’ll say, something about how all that’s going on is this is being reported, that you’re not making any justification here. But notice what is being reported? Very little about the McLatchy reports, very much about Pelosi. So the focus is all on “Is Pelosi lying,” which is irrelevant. Did Bush authorize torture? And why? And what effect has that had on our country?

    I wonder if anyone besides Jay Rosen is going to look into these very successful attempts to control “the truth” through the press. Probably not– the press has never been really self-questioning. I guess you don’t become a reporter if you’re very self-aware?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Uhmmm did anybody notice that after MoDo now Lanny Davis has come out not for a Truth Commission but instead a criminal indictment of Dick Cheney?
    .
    http://pundits.thehill.com/2009/05/18/the-cheney-dare/
    .
    I just want to quote one part of this and let it sink in how far our media has fallen off.
    .

    Even more, they seem to be an in-your-face dare by Mr. Cheney to the U.S. criminal justice system: “I am Dick Cheney, I approved violations of the law in the name of the war on terror, and what are you going to do about it?”
    .
    It reminds me of Gary Hart’s reaction in the early days of his 1988 presidential campaign to the rumors of his womanizing. Mr. Hart denied the charge — and then dared the media to catch him. Well, they took him up on his dare (specifically, the Miami Herald did). And they caught him — at least in a compromising situation that led to his withdrawal from the campaign.
    .
    So as to Mr. Cheney: I think it is time to take him up on his implicit dare and indict him for violating the 1994 federal law against torture.

    .
    There used to be a time when the media wouldn’t just go for the “look forward not back” proposition or want to “just keep walking” when crimes were committed or even rumored to have been committed. I miss those days.

  • spob

    Some points:

    1) First of all, the standard for whether a crime has been committed is NOT the likelihood that the Justice Dept. would prosecute it.

    2) The post is a little solicitous of Nancy Pelosi. It’s hard to believe that waterboarding got lost in the translation, and it’s harder still to believe that Jane Harman seems to have gotten it, but Pelosi did not. And, more to the point, Nancy Pelosi’s comments have not been measured. She’s made pretty strong accusations (remember “all the time”). And now we’re going to rely on a surmise of bureaucraticese to paper over Pelosi’s comments? A little too convenient.

    3) Boehner. Yeah, he’s got to put up or shut in the sense that he needs to make the case that this could fall under the statute. But he’s not that far off base. Pelosi has said that the CIA misleads “all the time”. That’s not leaving any room for an honest mistake or misunderstanding.

    4) One of the issues here is whether senior Dem political leadership has been consistent on this issue. Given Pelosi’s apparent approval of these enhanced interrogations, one can easily make the case that many Democrats are using this as a political club rather than being truly outraged by what happened. That’s relevant to this discussion.

  • spob

    And look at Schumer’s flip flop on this. How is it possible to take these people seriously?

  • spob

    And hasn’t Pelosi’s story, um, changed??

  • spob

    Rusty, I don’t think that you should criticize KT like that. Her inquiries are legitimate, as are her questions. Boehner has made statements, and she’s testing them. She’s giving Pelosi the benefit of the doubt–don’t reporters have to do that?

    I have some criticisms, which I have laid out, but I don’t think it’s justified to question her bona fides as a reporter.
    .
    You’re right to make the hypocrisy charge here, and I’d like to see more MSM attention on the embarassing flip flop of Schumer (and possibly other Dems), and I think KT’s post doesn’t address that at all. But there’s no need to go off on KT.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    The CIA responded to Obey
    .
    http://washingtonindependent.com/43615/cia-responds-to-obey-briefing-accounts-are-not-transcripts-and-recordings
    .

    “While CIA’s information has Mr. Juola attending briefings on September 19, 2006 and October 11, 2007, there are different recollections of these events, which Mr. Obey’s letter describes. As the agency has pointed out more than once, its list — compiled in response to congressional requests — reflects the records it has. These are notes, memos, and recollections, not transcripts and recordings.”

    .
    In other words they don’t know what the hell went down back then for sure, they are just going by best guess. Yet another reason to look at the CIA’s credibility.

  • stuartzechman

    spob:
    .
    She’s giving Pelosi the benefit of the doubt–don’t reporters have to do that?
    .
    Actually, no. Reporters should probably not give professional politicians embroiled in controversy over secret torture policies the benefit of the doubt.

  • http://www.bizzyblog.com/2009/09/12/in-defense-of-van-jones-sort-of/ BizzyBlog

    [...] Unlike Jones’s whopper about his Truther past, Nancy Pelosi has lied about events that have taken place while carrying out her official duties as congressperson, House Minority Leader, and House Majority Leader. Specifically, she claims not to have been briefed by the CIA about enhanced interrogation techniques employed in the years following the 9/11 attacks. Even the left-leaning FactCheck.org calls Pelosi’s various and changing claims made over the first half of this year “tortured denials.” To this day, she stands by her smear, and the accommodating media establishment in Washington has let it go. That doesn’t make it right, and it doesn’t make it legal. [...]

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