Judgement Day For Donald Rumsfeld

Not that I am a Donald Rumsfield fan, but the witch hunt continues it seems. But, truth is good in the long run Michael. Perhaps we can learn from these mistakes and not repeat them in the future. I am not hopeful that will be the case, however.
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But, I think this brings a clearer picture to events and failures. It shows how large egos can also risk a good cause in my opinion.
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The religious references are interesting, but I happen to agree that the “War on Terror” is a religious war. A war that was not perpetrated by Donald Rumsfield or President Bush. The facts are very clear, the first shoots were fired by Muslims at a predominantly Christian Country in the name of “Allah”. I also do not see an end to it in my life-time either.

How appallingly appropriate to see these hypocritical photos on a Sunday. Where are the hearts and minds of people who think that killing of any kind for any reason is not a sin against humanity. No amount of pious labeling can change the morality of the deed. No wonder the icon for these individuals is that of a man with nails driven through his hands and feet. The religion began with torture and continues to thrive on it. Where is the humanity?

MS:
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Did you ever go to the http://www.newamericancentury.org website?
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You should. In particular, peruse the documents written from 1998 to 2003.

MS:
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Just pointing out that if you had, these things would have been no surprise. No surprise whatsoever…

Thanks Michael. I haven’t gotten to it but I will later today. I especially appreciate this because the stupid cable people (and, for that matter, some of the print media) are convinced that the Pelosi story is so much more important than that Cheney ordered torture to help prove his ideological theory and than this Rumsfeld info. If some people say “look over there, look over there!” a whole of the MSM will dutifully obey.

Interesting story MS, thanks for pointing it out.
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That number of unnamed sources makes me suspicious of any story.
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But if true the story points out what I have long thought about Bush. He was very easy to handle. Stroke his ego as Cheney would or appeal to his Christianity like Rumsfeld and one could get what they wanted.

Kathy, I don’t think the print and cable people you refer to have any convictions, other than a firm conviction that their paycheck is important, and following drudge is the best way to protect it.
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and these documents were produced for one individual only. that something so clearly manipulative wasn’t rejected — along with its author — is all the more testament to what an empty fool bush was, and selected to front that rancid cheney/rumsfeld cabal who so deliberately and thoroughly ransacked and looted this country’s treasury and reputation.

Where are the hearts and minds of people who think that killing of any kind for any reason is not a sin against humanity.
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I agree, killing of a human being is a terrible thing, including babies in the 3rd trimester of life, which the current President professes to believe is a just cause.
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But, I am curious shirly. Where do you draw the line with someone like Sadam Hussein, who clearly tortured and killed many of his people? How do you justify your position with someone like Adolf Hitler in power. How do you justify the actions of Abu Zubaydah or Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, a man who beheaded no less Danny Pearl. Do we allow those mad-men continue? Do we turn our heads, turn our backs to those people who are suffering under their dictatorship and tyranny?
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In your Utopian world where there is no evil, then I agree with you. A place or country where mad-men do not have the power to enslave, kill and maim people, who do not inhabit or exist on the earth, I agree with you.
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However, when there are “evil-doers”, mass murderers and the like in power then I’m sorry, I disagree. I will vote for, fight and defend anyone who has the courage to step up to them, to fight them and their perverted ideals. As World War II proved, not taking the actions to prevent them from further killing, millions and millions of people will die. The Jewish holocaust is my proof. The Catholic’s attempt at the complete annihilation of the Protestants during the 1500, 1600, and 1700 hundreds is my proof. The persecution of the Christians by the Romans is my proof. And, today, the jihadist of the Muslim religion is my proof.
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I also do not care if they use statements from the bible to achieve that goal. To give our fighting men and women the courage and fortitude to continue the battle to do what is right and just.

Steve Benen highlights the part of the story that talks about Rummy’s behavior in response to Katrina
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http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_05/018217.php
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What a dastardly inept and cold hearted ass hole Rummy was and is.

rustyreturns Says:
Sunday, May 17, 2009 at 12:13 pm
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But, I am curious shirly. Where do you draw the line with someone like Sadam Hussein, who clearly tortured and killed many of his people? How do you justify your position with someone like Adolf Hitler in power. How do you justify the actions of Abu Zubaydah or Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, a man who beheaded no less Danny Pearl. Do we allow those mad-men continue? Do we turn our heads, turn our backs to those people who are suffering under their dictatorship and tyranny?
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Frankly, rusty, Saddam was doing his worst crimes back in the 1980s. That’s when he was best friends with Ronald Reagan, GHW Bush, and company.
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Your false equivalences, straw man arguments, and FAUX moralizing are a fine example of the complete bankruptcy of the Republican party.
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Yes, this is the more rational and sane side of the democrat party membership.
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http://hotair.com/archives/2009/05/14/video-code-pink-beclowns-themselves-at-rumsfelds-arrival/
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Again, not justifying what Rumsfield did or did not do, just showing in a video there are indeed crazy loons on both sides of the aisle.
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Do you have any pink dresses in your closet, sgwhite?

Actually, Rusty is making the Hobbesian argument against shirley’s Kantian beliefs. He’s not doing it particularly skillfully, but its a very solid argument that’s been going on since the days of Hobbes and Kant themselves.

Not that I am a Donald Rumsfield fan, but the witch hunt continues it seems.
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This is actually the exact opposite of a witch hunt. The slew of “former administration officials” who are remaining anonymous because GWB would disapprove are actually doing GW’s bidding with complete approval. By throwing Rumsfeld under the bus they hope to burnish W’s lagacy by blaming all the problems on the man he fired.
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It’s pretty transparent. MS joins in on the pile-on and folks like rusty get to assume a liberal agenda on the part of the author while he achieves the opposite effect.
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Let’s try to stay focused folks…..

Rusty and others: I draw no lines when it comes to taking a life. The act speaks for itself no matter who is the perpetrator and no matter what the circumstances. If evil begets evil and in this case it seems to be doing so, citing Saddam merely reinforces what I said originally. There is no humanity in killing. Actions may speak louder than words but that doesn’t make the action of killing a good thing, just noisy, upsetting, cruel and inhumane. Killing is the ultimate torture, after all.

Rusty thinks that the “War on Terror” is a religious war, but he’s wrong as usual. (How one human being could be so consistently wrong in both facts and logic is God’s own mystery.)
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It is true that the Muslim extremists are fueled by an irrational understanding of Muslim theology. But they aren’t waging a war against the West because we are “Christian.” They are waging a war against us because they are irrational. Their real war is against reason and rational thought.
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Don’t forget that the jihadis are equally comfortable attacking moderate Muslims or any group that happens to disagree with their twisted and violent worldview.
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The true conflict in this world is the battle between people who believe in reason and objective facts, and the dead-enders like Rusty, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Osama bin Laden who cling to fundamentalist and irrational opinions driven by religion.

Yes, ifthethunder, Sadam probably was more “powerful”, tyranical, and more of a mass murderer in the 1980′s, than in 2003. But, I also believe that Sadam’s build up of his military, his UN Food for Oil project, and his total rejection of the UN sactions / no fly zone.
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As I said, tyranical leaders such as Sadam do not have the best interests of their people or other people of the world. He may not have had WMD’s in possession at the time of the invasion, but he certainly made the illusion that he did. Evidence is also abundant that once the santions were lifted, he would have pursued eagerly to re-arm his military with WMD’s.
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So it is a question of do we re-invade now or re-invade at a later date when the danger to our troops would be even greater than it was in hind-sight in 2003.
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I believe Obama realizes now with his war in Afghanistan, choosing to increase the troops is futher justification of the Iraqi War decisions made by Bush and Co.
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Of course you can always become an isolationist like shirly. Believe that there is no evil in the world, and no justification for taking up arms “no matter what”. You can allow your sworn enemies to make the first move, and then you are left with the al-Qaeda strikes of 9/11 to occur. You can allow the nutjobs the far left liberals are in favor of bolstering, such as Kim Jong Il. Allowing these mad-men to gain more power, do more evil and killing and just turn your back on the whole affair.
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If I am to be shot, I would much sooner look my killer in the face, than turn my back to him/her.

The standard spelling of the word ‘judgment’ omits an e after the g.

sg:
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Thanks for this link. I have been discussing Katrina with my brother in law for quite a while, and I had been arguing that the Administration withheld aid deliberately for ideological reasons, and he took the position that it was incompetence.
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It now appears that we were both right:
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Rumsfeld (and not Chertoff) was the ideologue, and Bush was very reluctant to make quick decisions [note that this is day three to five].
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Thanks.

“I believe Obama realizes now with his war in Afghanistan, choosing to increase the troops is futher justification of the Iraqi War decisions made by Bush and Co.”
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Well, now, this is certainly not true, as it segues into the decision to waterboard that Al-Queda guy in order to get him to make a connection between Al-Queda and Saddam.
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That takes care of that particular argument, I think:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#30773553

You see, Rusty’s arguments about Iraq are all predicated on this:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

choska Says:
Sunday, May 17, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Rusty thinks that the “War on Terror” is a religious war, but he’s wrong as usual. (How one human being could be so consistently wrong in both facts and logic is God’s own mystery.)
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THEOLOGICAL WARFARE: TERRORISTS GO DIRECTLY TO HELL

One major tool in this holy war has been mostly overlooked: theology. ‘Muslim’ terrorists are willing to sacrifice their own lives in the process of killing Jews and their supporters
because they have been told by their religious/political leaders
that they will immediately go to paradise if they die in the holy war to rid the world of ‘infidels’.
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~parkx032/CY-HOLYW.html
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Are you an “infidel”, choska? Or, are you of the mind that you are going to “rationally” discuss with the terrorists that what they are doing is wrong?
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Have you ever had a discussion with a Schizophrenic, choska? I have. In their delusional, irrational state of mind, discussions are the last thing they would like to do, especially if that discussion is about taking their anti-psychotic medications.
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Perhaps, you will re-think this choska, and take your anti-psychotic medications, then perhaps you will be more able to rationalize my comments.
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More opinions on the Religious / War on Terror debate…
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http://www.fogcityjournal.com/wordpress/2009/05/14/aslan-us-%E2%80%9Cwar-on-terror%E2%80%9D-not-about-terrorism/
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This book actually captures more of the democrat ideals, but still has the opinion that the “War on Terror” is a religious war. Written by Bob Avakian, Chairman of the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA
http://revcom.us/a/103/ba-religion-book-en.html
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Perhaps this says better, what I believe as well…
“Terrorism is not an enemy. It is a method. It is the most sinister, brutal, inhumane method of our age. But it is nonetheless just that: a method. You cannot, and you do not, make war on a method. War is made on an identified — and identifiable — enemy.

We have a rich and worthy tradition of religious tolerance in America. Indeed, in many ways our reverence for religious practice and tolerance is why there is an America. America was a deeply religious place long before it was ever a constitutional democracy. That tradition of tolerance causes us, admirably, to bend over backwards before we pass judgment on the religious beliefs and religious practices of others. It is an enormous part of what makes America great”.
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http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200405130837.asp

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Oh my. Lions and tigers and bears. 2002 all over again…

That takes care of that particular argument, I think:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#30773553
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Wow, Phifty. Citing Rachael Madow as your source of supreme confidence not only proves how stupid you truly are, but how infallibly a far left liberal extremists you portray to be.
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I wouldn’t watch anything that baffoon had to say even if it came with a disclaimer from God himself.

Wonder why he capitalized that ‘S’…

It’s not so much rusty what she says, but it is more about the documents she presented.
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Of course, I’m prepared for the possibility that you will claim it’s all a lie and never actually happened…

Oh goodie, the two troll brothers, cliffy and Phifty are at their best when they defend their positions with sarcasm and 3rd grade playground name calling. One only has to wait long enough for them to show their true colors.
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True blue democrat demagogues.

“The facts are very clear, the first shoots were fired by Muslims at a predominantly Christian Country in the name of “Allah”.”
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What role did Iraq play in 9/11?
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Are you arguing that the war criminal George Bush, the man who murderd thousands of innocent Iraqi people, represents all of Christendom?

Mercy, it was Derek in the pink dress at the WHCD, shouting out “war criminal” at Rumsfield. Amazing.
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No Derek, my Code Pink friend. I believe George is a Christian. I do not believe any man “represents” or is the leader of “Christendom”. That position I resevere for Jesus Christ, himself.

“I do not believe any man “represents” or is the leader of “Christendom”. That position I resevere for Jesus Christ, himself.”
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Why do you believe the 9/11 terrorists represent all of Islam. After all, all three major religions descend from Abraham.

Oh I’m sorry Cliffy. My bad. I am terribly sorry for calling you and Phifty trolls. God knows you both are completely innocent in everything you have written now, and in the past. Same goes for Derek. Sorry for alluding that you wear pink dresses.
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Oh and yes, choska. Sorry for making it sound like you are schizophrenic. I know sometimes my “logic and consistent facts” are always at odds with your own beliefs and opinions.
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There am I forgiven FAR LEFT LIBERAL EXTREMISTS ?????

Why it doesn’t work debating a troll
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http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3012/2668975758_ff9a8944c7.jpg

“Same goes for Derek. Sorry for alluding that you wear pink dresses.”
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You don’t have any other way of making a point other than using insult. You are probably still angry about getting spit on when you got back from Nam right? By the way, where were you stationed in Vietnam, and what part of the service were you in?

Well, hells bells!
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Here is historically accurate stuff, provided by the authors of the Iraq war. Pick yer poison! Crunch all you want! We’ll make more!
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http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqmiddleeast2002.htm
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I mean, lets why not go to the horse at the source!

I think what is missing in that picture is where, afterward, in a snit of rage, stomps outside, pulls the wings of butterflies, cooks a couple ants with a magnifying glass, and kills the cat.

“Why do you believe the 9/11 terrorists represent all of Islam. After all, all three major religions descend from Abraham”.
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I do not believe that the 9/11 terrorists represent ALL of Islam, just the majority of them in my opinion. Especially those in power within the Islamic / Muslim dominated countries. Using, as in past historical events, religion in order to gain more power and to annihilate their “sworn enemies”.
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And of course, the same belief that in the article which Michael linked to, alludes that the majority of Christians in the United States believed that it was Christian ideals and beliefs that George Bush invaded Iraq, correct? It was George’s Christian beliefs that lead him solely to attack Sadam. One could make that inference, no doubt.
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Are you attacking my opinion of Muslims, Derek, or that you assume I am attacking the Islamic religion for some reason? Although I disagree with the radical teachings of Islam, there are many base ideals you can associate with the 3 major religions without a doubt. I just find that most of what Islam teaches, is perverted. But, I also believe that Pagans, Wicans and other multiple God worshipping people are equally perverted as well.

“I do not believe that the 9/11 terrorists represent ALL of Islam, just the majority of them in my opinion. Especially those in power within the Islamic / Muslim dominated countries.
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“That tradition of tolerance causes us, admirably, to bend over backwards before we pass judgment on the religious beliefs and religious practices of others. It is an enormous part of what makes America great.”
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I like your style, Cliff…

“I just find that most of what Islam teaches, is perverted. But, I also believe that Pagans, Wicans and other multiple God worshipping people are equally perverted as well.”
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“That tradition of tolerance causes us, admirably, to bend over backwards before we pass judgment on the religious beliefs and religious practices of others. It is an enormous part of what makes America great.”

Sorry Cliff!
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I just could not resist the self-contradictory statements…

“That tradition of tolerance causes us, admirably, to bend over backwards before we pass judgment on the religious beliefs and religious practices of others. It is an enormous part of what makes America great.”
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Oh I am not taking credit for that statement, Phifty. That would be McCarthy’s.
http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200405130837.asp
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I just used it to show choska how this is a religious war, and how Americans, especially Christians will “bend over backwards in tolerance”, but will defend their country and ideals from known enemies, even in religious wars. I will bend, but not quite as far over as most of you on this site. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

while no fan of Rummy’s, I think that its crucial to keep in mind that the people who are now doing all this leaking about events that took place prior to the 2004 presidential election are even worse than Rumsfeld himself in many ways. Rumsfeld was merely a symptom of the cancer that was George W. Bush — and had these leakers told American the truth when all this crap was going on, its highly likely that the crap that most of the massive problems facing Bush’s successor would not exist. (and yeah, I’m looking at you Powell, Tenet, Rice, Wilkinson, Scowcroft, etc…))

What better way to start a morning then to watch a rw nut kick his own arse? What better the smell of cordite in the morning?
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I gotta go get my grandson, and take my wife to the store.
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It been a bit like poking a feral, rabies crazed wolverine with a long stick, and watching it tear itself apart in a blind rage.
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Mission Accomplished!

“The standard spelling of the word ‘judgment’ omits an e after the g.”
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While that spelling is more common, either spelling is correct, and the spelling MS used is more phonetically accurate.

Cliff, did you know that over on the other thread, he positively spewed Rush Limbaughs’ “Think reparations. Think forced reparations.
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Just fyi, too, he thinks I (and my family!) should be, uh, well, um, “grateful”.

This is one hell of a speech.

If the Special Olympics ever includes debating, entire teams could be recruited from this thread. Rusty the Clown is obviously mentally challenged — what’s his opponents’ excuse?

The Rumsfeld article was pretty good IF it can be believed. First Maureen Dowd goes after Cheney and it looks like she has the blessing and encouragement from Bush #41. Now they’re going after Rumsfeld. Cheney and Rumsfeld aren’t going to take this lying down. Expect a pushback. If they’re trying to lay the blame on Cheney and Rummy in order to burnish Bush #43′s legacy (good luck), the most they can possibly do is to highlight that Dubya was in over his head from the beginning and asleep at the wheel for the better part of both terms. Wrong or incompetent? That’s the way to make a guy look better?

[...] Michael Scherer [...]

“and yeah, I’m looking at you Powell, Tenet, Rice, Wilkinson, Scowcroft”
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Ditto, that. And in particular Powell. He criticizes the relatively harmless Rush from the safe confines of 2009 and many dems drool all over themselves. Vs. standing up when 10s of 1000s of lives were on the line:
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http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2009/05/zelig-of-war-crimes-by-digby-bob.html
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As for our “good christian soldiers,” Jeremy Scahill has been talking about this for weeks–what’s unclear to me is the timeline, if it’s continuing. But since when do evangelicals shut up.
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http://rebelreports.com/post/103330614/us-soldiers-in-afghanistan-told-to-hunt-people-for

“If the Special Olympics ever includes debating, entire teams could be recruited from this thread”
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I might not go that far, but of 50+ comments how many do not involve Rusty in one way or another. I’d hate to take away from someone’s obvious pleasure (either side of the debate), but fitty and co., you do realize R and Spob probably brag to friends about how disruptive they are at the “liberal” swamp, how they own this place. And of late, I’d have to say they’re right.

I might not go that far, but of 50+ comments how many do not involve Rusty in one way or another. I’d hate to take away from someone’s obvious pleasure (either side of the debate), but fitty and co., you do realize R and Spob probably brag to friends about how disruptive they are at the “liberal” swamp, how they own this place. And of late, I’d have to say they’re right.
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I’d apologize for my long post on the other thread then JC-san, but A) I’m kinda proud of it and B) I doubt it will get acknowledged much anyway. Well, other than Spob making a clown of himself.

I have realized now that people are going to feed the trolls whether we like it or not so I don’t even say not to anymore. Its of course a waste of keystroks but I can’t knock somebody else’s hustle. At least it somewhat stayed on topic today. But literally like jcapan said all the trolls want is attention so you lose the argument in their mind as soon as you respond. That’s a win for them period. And nothing anybody says will ever get them to admit they are wrong.

How about Maureen Dowd plagarized Josh Marshall today?
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http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/thejoshuablog/2009/05/ny-times-maureen-dowd-plagiari.php
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I knew there was a reason she sounded so…..rational lol. I wonder if she just cut and pasted from a bunch of blogs.

Although I disagree with the radical teachings of Islam, there are many base ideals you can associate with the 3 major religions without a doubt. I just find that most of what Islam teaches, is perverted. But, I also believe that Pagans, Wicans and other multiple God worshipping people are equally perverted as well.
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Rusty, I’m sorry, but I really have to call you out on this. You know as much about Islam as you know about science — only what you want to know. There are over a billion Muslims in the world, and if you think that a majority of them are just like Al Qaeda, then perhaps that explains why you think this country will soon be invaded by hordes of them. I don’t even think you’ve ever seen the Quran, much less touched one, so please don’t run your mouth off about Islam’s “perverted” teachings. The only thing you’ve read out of the Quran is what’s been forwarded to you in chain emails.

while no fan of Rummy’s, I think that its crucial to keep in mind that the people who are now doing all this leaking about events that took place prior to the 2004 presidential election are even worse than Rumsfeld himself in many ways. Rumsfeld was merely a symptom of the cancer that was George W. Bush — and had these leakers told American the truth when all this crap was going on, its highly likely that the crap that most of the massive problems facing Bush’s successor would not exist. (and yeah, I’m looking at you Powell, Tenet, Rice, Wilkinson, Scowcroft, etc…)
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plukasiak, agreed. I imagine that these people either didn’t think fighting an ineptly managed and unnecessary holy war would be a mistake, and are only now realizing how problematic this all was, or they just cared more about “their side” winning in 2004 than the troops, the Iraqi people, the American people, the economic damage caused by the war, the people jeopardized by a strengthened Iran, all those Iraq veterans living with permanent injuries, etc.
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And these documents will enrage Muslims far more than the torture photos would.

sgwhiteinfla Says:
Sunday, May 17, 2009 at 6:14 pm
“I have realized now that people are going to feed the trolls whether we like it or not so I don’t even say not to anymore.”
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One thing is for certain. Calling someone a “troll”, only shows how much of one you really are yourself. Especially sgwhiteinfla. He cannot have an original idea or opinion of his own, he just regurgitates far left talking points he picks up from Daily Kos. I am very proud when someone like him, Phifty and Cliffy choose to label me a troll. I know I have them right where they belong. In the far left liberal dung-heap of our society. No different than the Code Pink wackos shouting at Rumsfield and calling him a “war criminal”. At least Phifty and Cliffy do not hide their “trollness”; their blatant name-calling fingers them every time. I have simply resorted to beating them to their game today for a change. Usually I just ignore them totally.
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Have you ever noticed that sgwhite never debates anyone? He simply retypes the garbage libtard comments from what someone else said, or just copies the link to another web site, without any further opinion.
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But, let them pine and go on. If it makes them feel like really big liberals, instead of the little liberals they truly are.
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Have a happy day everyone!

SG, thanks for that link. That’s going to be a big story… It’s way too long and intricately worded a quotation to be a pure coincidence. It’s also fascinating that apparently none of her editors read Josh Marshall, who is not exactly a minor journalist.

As for the religious quotes: this is the exact same perversion of religion that happens around the globe when people need justification for their actions. Using selective quotes from religious texts to buttress preconcieved convictions is exactly the type of reasoning that allows groups like Al Qaeda to claim their wars are sanctioned by God.
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Bush was a Christian, and in his eyes (and the collective eyes of his administration) every one of his actions were justified through his faith. He often spoke about how he sought guidance from faith, so why should I be suprised when Bible quotes that support his wars show up in official documents?
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I’m not suprised at all. Anyone who is shocked about these quotes had their eyes closed and their ears blocked for the last eight years…

Let me check my score sheet on the President appearing at Notre Dame. I don’t care for religion, nor for my President appearing at religious institutions. But, hey, he gots religion too, of his own flavor, and universal religious flavors don’t exist. But, it is entertaining. Newt, thrice married, twice divorced, (isn’t that against Catholic rules?), newly converted and welcomed by the Vatican, and long time religious crazy zealot Alan Keyes, really do give a good show.
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The graduates were overwhelmingly welcoming. He could have been some rock star. The speach was superb, as expected, he can do no less.
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OK, I backtrack (as he has on some issues), and now favor his appearance at more religious institutions. It is fun to watch the crazies.
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And rusty, please don’t go away. I am your biggest fan, for the same kind of entertainment as that, which you provide in abundance. Thanks.

rose83
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Well considering some of the crap Dowd has put out the last couple of years I am not real surprised her editors didn’t catch it because they let the other stuff through. But on another level I think maybe her article making sense should have sent up some red flags lol. Its sad but these days MoDo writing a column that people might actually link to and block quote is probably a sign that she didn’t write it herself.

rustyreturns Says:
Sunday, May 17, 2009 at 6:44 pm
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One thing is for certain. Calling someone a “troll”, only shows how much of one you really are yourself.

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rustyreturns Says:
Sunday, May 17, 2009 at 1:44 pm
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Oh goodie, the two troll brothers, cliffy and Phifty are at their best when they defend their positions with sarcasm and 3rd grade playground name calling. One only has to wait long enough for them to show their true colors.

sg, see what I mean? Again, rusty, please don’t go away.

formerly
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Yeah, I don’t want the trolls to go away either, its the taking them seriously part that I just don’t understand.

Forgive me for breaking the thread with the Notre Dame comment, but to me it is a given that the entire W. Bush administration was full of incompetent, crazy, criminals. I am beyond being impressed by new crazy revelations. It would grab my attention again if there were some chance of prosecution. It seems that is off the table. So fug it.

Newt, thrice married, twice divorced, (isn’t that against Catholic rules?), newly converted and welcomed by the Vatican,
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formerlyjames, doesn’t count because they were not Catholic marriages.
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Have you ever noticed that sgwhite never debates anyone? He simply retypes the garbage libtard comments from what someone else said, or just copies the link to another web site, without any further opinion.
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LOL. No one knows how untrue that is more than I do…
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SG, I hate to admit it but I am so looking forward to this plagiarism scandal.

rose83
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Question, do you really think there will be one? A scandal I mean. I mean JMM is big time and all but I think the Village may just try to cover up for MoDo. Hell cable news totally ignored a story in the NY Times that got a damn Pulitzer. I put nothing past the media when it comes to a collective CYA these days. And in this case especially because its a DFH blogger no matter how big time Josh is.

rose, the Catholic prohibition against divorce is set in concrete, whether of Catholic origin or not. It is verbotten (German Nazi word). I was unaware of any exceptions, until Newt was blessed on admission.
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As for sg not debating, I can proclaim to the heavens that I go out of my way to avoid engaging sg in debate. It is hard sometimes. But my hat is off to one of the mainstays of the Swamp.

The Times has responded:
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‘Josh Marshall said in his blog: “More and more the timeline is raising the question of why, if the torture was to prevent terrorist attacks, it seemed to happen mainly during the period when we were looking for what was essentially political information to justify the invasion of Iraq.”’
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“An earlier version of this column failed to attribute a paragraph about the timeline for prisoner abuse to Josh Marshall’s blog at Talking Points Memo.”

formerlyjames, I just asked my dad about this. Apparently the Catholic church has become very flexible in the past few decades, and bishops give dispensations on this matter routinely. Plus annulments for Catholic marriages are handed out quite easily.
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There have been many of these dispensations in my family actually. And we’re not well-connected or anything.

jcapan
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The only problem is now they have changed the actual text to what Josh had on his blog. The earlier version of MoDo’s column had changed 3 words which was obviously, to me anyway, an attempt to hide the fact that it was ripped from Josh’s blog. But I bet you nobody says anything about it in the MSM. Now the explanation will be the final word on it whether it makes sense or not.

jcapan, wow. That’s weak. Since when do NY Times Op-Ed’s quote whole paragraphs of analysis, not evidence, from other reporters? And of course they didn’t even add any kind of attribution originally.
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The best way the NY Times can make up for this error is to make Josh Marshall an Op-Ed contributor.

Personally, I’d relish a scandal involving Dowd (consummate villager-courtier-hack par excellence). But at the same time, however tainted her voice is, what she said (or pasted) today is still a most important step. If a villager can take a temporary road to Damascus, perhaps it can lead to a larger MSM narrative shift and ultimately a degree of accountability.
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Strange bedfellows indeed, but if it takes the likes of Dowd and co. to push this admin. to do what it should on its own, then I’m down with that. Clearly the past week has made abundantly clear that progressives alone have insufficient leverage with the WH.

The earlier version of MoDo’s column had changed 3 words which was obviously, to me anyway, an attempt to hide the fact that it was ripped from Josh’s blog. But I bet you nobody says anything about it in the MSM. Now the explanation will be the final word on it whether it makes sense or not.
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SG, I read that differently. The “we” in Marshall’s column was much more d–ning (would that fall in the moderation trap if I spelled it out?) than the conveniently distant “the Bush crowd” in Dowd’s column. I just thought that was Dowd once again choosing the least challenging and intellectually rigorous route. And if it was intended to disguise the paragraph’s origin, than the NY Times would have stood their ground. Obviously even they recognize that’s a very minor change.
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And I think this story is nowhere near over.

SG/Rose,
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I get you both–it’s very fishy and weak, but hypocrisy aside, it simply doesn’t interest me as much as the underlying issue–she and Marshall and the 3 of us are all on the same pg. Doesn’t mean she shouldn’t have to apologize, but a circular firing squad just clouds the issue.

“An earlier version of this column failed to attribute a paragraph about the timeline for prisoner abuse to Josh Marshall’s blog at Talking Points Memo.”
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And yet in the paragraph immediately preceding it she takes the time to source the Washington Note. Pure Bull.
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I did however enjoy reading the word “discomfiting” in a sentence about Joe Biden. Who is Biden’s press guy again?

jcapan, I don’t think she truly is on the same page. Plus the threat of a “circular firing squad” might push Dowd to not write about Jill Biden’s shoes next week. This has been a huge blow to her credibility, and she needs to repair the damage by showing she can be smart and serious even when she’s not plagiarizing.
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Let’s dare her to prove SG wrong: “Its sad but these days MoDo writing a column that people might actually link to and block quote is probably a sign that she didn’t write it herself.”

Rose/formerlyjames:
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A non-Catholic marraige is never sactioned by the Catholic church and is basically considered by (conservative) Catholics to not exist. Therefore, a non-Catholic marraige that ends in divorce is not a divorce because they were never married to begin with.

rose83
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I actually think both could be true. Its obvious in the rest of the article that MoDo accepts no responsibility even though she was one of W’s biggest cheerleaders so there is that, but I think she was also looking for a place to change up some stuff just in case and that part was the most convenient. I can tell you one thing, I am not buying her excuse.
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josh is right. I didn’t read his blog last week, and didn’t have any idea he had made that point until you informed me just now. i was talking to a friend of mine Friday about what I was writing who suggested I make this point, expressing it in a cogent — and I assumed spontaneous — way and I wanted to weave the idea into my column. but, clearly, my friend must have read josh marshall without mentioning that to me. we’re fixing it on the web, to give josh credit, and will include a note, as well as a formal correction tomorrow.

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Thats some bullsh*t. Unless her “friend” was reading directly from his blog there is no way MoDo got it in that fashion. And if she WAS reading it then obviously that person, if they exist, would have told MoDo where they got it from and they wouldn’t have changed “we” to “Bush folks”. The sh*t doesn’t add up but I bet you they try to let her off the hook. The truth is in the original piece that was supposed to be an original thought of hers so why even put it in there if it came from someone else anyway?

BTW, Rose, you’ll find this amusing:
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http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20090518a1.html
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Not only did Porky the Pig Flu make it’s way to Japan, it’s right here in my city’s ward, with many of the cases originating at my wife’s former high school! And I thought the Japanese were mask-crazy before!

” i was talking to a friend of mine Friday about what I was writing who suggested I make this point, expressing it in a cogent — and I assumed spontaneous — way and I wanted to weave the idea into my column.”
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I didn’t steal from Josh I stole from my “friend”!
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Gossip columnists really should hold so much sway.

should=shouldn’t.
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Sorry.

‘I don’t think she truly is on the same page. Plus the threat of a “circular firing squad” might push Dowd to not write about Jill Biden’s shoes next week. This has been a huge blow to her credibility, and she needs to repair the damage by showing she can be smart and serious even when she’s not plagiarizing.’
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Well, you’re right, of course. She’s currently on the same pg. like Joe “Weathercock” Klein is a temporary “liberal”–they’re fashionable positions at the moment (different kinds of shoes). But with the villagers, that’s all we can EVER hope for. Transient correctness that has a temporarily positive impact (maybe).
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But come now Rose: “This has been a huge blow to her credibility”!? With whom? Again, don’t let anything I’ve said = I have anything less than unbridled scorn for Mo Do.

nathan7777 Says:
Sunday, May 17, 2009 at 6:39 pm
I don’t even think you’ve ever seen the Quran, much less touched one, so please don’t run your mouth off about Islam’s “perverted” teachings. The only thing you’ve read out of the Quran is what’s been forwarded to you in chain emails.
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Actually you are correct in assuming I know the Quran much less than I do the Bible. But how well do you know the Quran, nathan?
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This is actually a good documentary about Islam, and what we in the west should know.
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-871902797772997781
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But, Islam founded by Mohammad in the 600′s AD based most of the authenticity of the Quran on the Torah and the Bible. The basis for Islam is Abraham, “God’s chosen”. Sarah, Abraham’s wife could not have children. So Sarah sent her servant Hagar, who was also Abraham’s concubine. Hagar became pregnant with Ishmael. Later as the story goes, Sarah is blessed with Issac, and because Sarah is an Israelite and Hagar an Egyptian concubine, Ishmael is rejected by Abraham as his chosen Son to succeed him.
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Ishmael is where Mohammad relates his writings in the Quran to God (Allah). By Ishmael, the rejected son of Abraham, Mohammad used this link as the basis and lineage to Abraham and to provide legitimacy for Islam. While Mohammad does not dispute any of the teachings and writing in either the Torah or the Bible, he does submit that one day Islam will be the chosen religion of God, and all other religions will fail. Jesus is recognized as a prophet, but that is all.
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Then you have several sects with their own version of the “messiah”. The Shia in Iran, believe in the 12th Imam, who will one day miraculously return to the earth. But, it is not a peaceful return. The 12th Imam’s return is fraught with the total destruction of all “infidels”. Anyone not of the Islamic faith. This is what is very scary if Iran obtains the nuclear capabilities that worry Israel so much, and the purpose of the up-coming visit by Netanyahu. The Israelis know and understand why a nuclear Iran is so dangerous, because Islamic radicals will use the nuclear bomb to “wipe Israel off the face of the map”. A direct quote from Ahmadinejad. But Nathan, you go right ahead and believe what you believe. I shall also believe and profess what I believe as well.
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But for the most part, the Quran professes tolerance, forgiveness and love. But, there are many passages in reference to the “jihad”, where by your acts for Allah will place you firmly in the Muslim heaven. This is why you see so many suicide bombers. The Muslim Clerics, who are extremists use this passage in the Quran to justify their acts, and bless them as martyrs.
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But, believe what you may. Religious beliefs will always foster lunatics, anti-Christs and other various scourge upon the earth. Men and Women will kill each other until the end of days in the name of their religious convictions. Perhaps that is why the social progressive Democrats want to do away with anything religious in our own society. They know if pushed too far, they may have an internal struggle on their own hands one day. I fear that more actually than I do a Muslim invasion of any significance to be honest. Sure there will be the occasional terrorist who comes through our open borders, but that will only kill a few thousand perhaps. But, a religious struggle in our own country with our own citizens. That could become very dicey indeed.

And again, I find this place a lot more engaging when (as with the last 20 comments) trolls aren’t present/fed. Knock knock

nathan/rose, I draw on my own experience. I was raised Catholic, but have forgotten or dismissed all of the silly rules. I am the black sheep in the family. My sister was not allowed a Catholic marriage 30 years ago, because her fiancee had been married and divorced in civil ceremonies. She was devestated. I still remember her crying and carrying on about it. It may be one of the experiences I had that caused me to begin to wonder at the stupidity of religion. In any event, she is still devout. Goes to mass, all of what I consider a lot of bs.
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She is still not married according to Catholic rite, yet her 2 daughters have both married in the Church (capalized in jest), and since divorced.
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It is all nonsense. Folishness. But, like I enjoy rusty, I like to watch it all like a watching some combination of a car wreck and a great comedian at the same time.
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Marriage was invented by the religionists, and yet they have made such a hypocritical joke of it. How many of the sacred marriages are for life. What? 50% at best. But before taking a look see at the flawed institution itself, they want to deny the flawed institution to the homos. I am falling over laughing at it all. What a circus, what a zoo.

A non-Catholic marraige is never sactioned by the Catholic church and is basically considered by (conservative) Catholics to not exist. Therefore, a non-Catholic marraige that ends in divorce is not a divorce because they were never married to begin with.
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nathan7777, I asked my dad about this. Apparently there is now some formal recognition of other (Christian?) marriages. A dispensation is definitely needed for a former Protestant who had a Protestant marriage that ended in divorce and is now marrying in the Catholic church. Again drawing on family experience here.
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formerlyjames, that’s terrible. She could probably have a Catholic wedding now if she tried again…
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jcapan, and you were so sure it wasn’t a serious issue! Now Japan could be the site that pushes this to level 6. Thanks for letting me enjoy the irony… But the whole mask thing is basically a superstition. It’s a mystery to me who so many people believe in them.
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BTW, I read recently the WHO is estimating that 30% will catch the flu, and it will have a death rate of 0.4%. So it shouldn’t be a catastrophe like the 1918 pandemic, but significantly more than the usual 36,000 Americans will probably die unless the vaccine plan works perfectly. The good news for us young healthy people is that people with underlying medical conditions appear to be more vulnerable.
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But come now Rose: “This has been a huge blow to her credibility”!? With whom? Again, don’t let anything I’ve said = I have anything less than unbridled scorn for Mo Do.
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I don’t pretend to understand why so many people take her seriously – that’s like trying to understand why some people like Matthew McConaughey movies; it hurts my brain to even try to figure it out – but they do. I still have traumatic memories of Democrats citing Maureen Dowd’s arguments against HRC in the primaries…
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SG, if I’m understanding that correctly she’s basically saying she thought she was quoting her friend virtually verbatim without attribution. Is that so much better? Also, no one really talks like that. It was obviously not a spontaneous statement, and I’m sure Marshall spent at least a few minutes organizing that paragraph so precisely.
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Cliff, thanks!

rose, you made me laugh on the McConaughey reference. I love cable for the movies. When I see he is in one of them, I immediately go elsewhere. He is a disgrace to the art.

“Marriage was invented by the religionists”
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formerlyjames, is that accurate? I had always understood it had a history based in property. Females being part of that “property”.
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“Most ancient societies needed a secure environment for the perpetuation of the species,a system of rules to handle the granting of property rights, and the protection of bloodlines. The institution of marriage handled these needs. For instance, ancient Hebrew law required a man to become the husband of a deceased brother’s widow.”
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http://marriage.about.com/cs/generalhistory/a/marriagehistory.htm
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Adding– not asserting that is the final word but rather a quick summation of what I have understood.

PNNTO, I don’t really know about the invention of it. You will agree, I think, that the religionists have sure taken ownership now?

“But the whole mask thing is basically a superstition. It’s a mystery to me who so many people believe in them”
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Agreed, though here they’re also used to keep down people’s pollen intake, and (in regular flu season) to try to prevent their germs from impacting others. Surely, they do mitigate one’s sneeze arc. As for prevention, I always say wash your hands and don’t lick doorknobs.
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And given his overall body of “work,” I’m more than a little embarrassed to defend McConaughey. But he does have one classic role: Wooderson in Dazed & Confused. And he was in one of John Sayle’s many brilliant films, Lone Star.

No doubt formerlyjames, that’s why my decades long position is that the State shouldn’t even weigh in on “marriage”. Codify contracts, stay out of religion.
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But what do I care? We live in sin.

Matthew McConaghey=”A Time To Kill”
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That’s about the only movie of his that I will watch all the way through.

Wait, I have to amend my statement. There is another movie with McConaghey in it that I will watch but he doesn’t really do a whole lot of acting in it, rather he is mostly the narrator. That movie is “Frailty”

Not to butt in, and not directly on topic, but I loved Lone Star jcapan.
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I read/heard (can’t recall for sure) Sayle’s saying ” I make Women’s movies…for men”

jcapan, I can disagree with people about politics and stay friendly, but Matthew McConaughey? You just crossed a line there.
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Seriously, I think there’s a difference between a film he appeared in and a “Matthew McConaughey” film.
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And if there are any romantic-comedy fans lurking who are also horrified that McConaughey has taken over the genre, see Star Trek. The bromance there is classic Hepburn-Grant stuff.

Ode to the unspellable McCon-a-hey:
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And, PNNTO, here’s my fav Sayle’s flick:
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Chris Cooper, David Strathairn, I was first exposed to so many great actors via his films.

You have excellent taste Rose.

Rose, so you liked Trek? The reviews are pretty damned good. Opens here on the 29th. As a guy who grew up watching Shatner-Nimoy on his B&W telly, it goes without saying that I’ll be there opening night.

jcapan, I’ve never seen a Star Trek episode or movie before, and frankly I think the sci-fi stuff on Lost is way more interesting. However, I am a huge Zachary Quinto fan from Heroes, which is mainly why I saw it. I thought the plot was so-so, the action was above-average and the acting and character elements were great.
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But I’m sure trekkies have a different perspective.

SG and Cliff, you both got schooled on this blog by Rusty..had to laugh..no comeback or defending yourselves when u lost on facts..just call him a troll..go back to reposting stuff you read on KOS…got a good chuckle tonight

Amos Bronson Alcott:
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To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant.

He who knows and knows he knows: he is wise – follow him.
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He who knows and knows not he knows: he is asleep – wake him.
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He who knows not and knows he knows not: he is simple – teach him.
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He who knows not and knows not he knows not: he is a fool – shun him.
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Persian Proverb

I always say wash your hands and don’t lick doorknobs.
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You must be a lot of fun on a Saturday night JC-San!
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BTW, it was VERY difficult for me to refrain from pwning Rusty (as a man with a BA in Asian Studies specializing in Japan and Islam, why I specialized there is a fascinating and long story for another time) on his citing of what Islam is. It’s bad enough to even acknowledge it I know, but I’m learing JC-sensei!

Is it because you’re Bahai, or is it the other way around?
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That’s part of it. Having a very inspirational professor for a random class I took helped a lot as well. I literally went from meh about the subject to wanting to learn all I could. Of course Baha’i history is a good part of modern Iranian and Middle East history as well. It seemed like a natural progression.

“Again, not justifying what Rumsfield did or did not do, just showing in a video there are indeed crazy loons on both sides of the aisle.”
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Yes, well, fortunately, on the left we don’t make our crazy loons – religious or otherwise – President, Vice President and Secretary of Defense.

Yes, well, fortunately, on the left we don’t make our crazy loons – religious or otherwise – President, Vice President and Secretary of Defense.
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No, but you do make them Judges. Activists judges no less who legislate from the bench rather than simply interpreting the laws as written.

Should Donald Rumsfeld be tried and convicted? That is the QUESTION! Ah! There comes the time now to lift up and scan all documents relevant to the indecent or criminal deeds of the formal defense secretary.

History is always kind to man-in-power! I had always deemed that Rumsfeld was an odd and interesting character for the White House. But of course during his hayday as a defense secretary he had to do what he was tasked to do at his best! CONVINCE & INFLUENCE TO THE BEST KNOWLEDGE AND ABILITY! There was no right and wrong and as long as opinions and objectivity were put across to his Boss then he had done his job! What was the objective then? To annihilate Iraq and to remove Saddam from power in whatever way!

Rumsfeld is no different then Charles Taylor, Omar Bashir, Saddam Hussein, Manuel Noreiga, Pol Pot and to the extent Hitler. The only thing is he was a defense secretary and he had the stomach (like the rest) to “save America from external threats.”

So if we try and convict him, we only serve to document the transcripts of “all the wonderful events he had done.” But do anyone of us think this will serve to reconcile our thoughts and actions? Perhaps and perhaps we may even create neo-Rumsfeld with even more tragic actions to come.