In the Arena

Cheney and Torture

There’s more today from Lawrence Wilkerson, who was Colin Powell’s former chief of staff, via TPM: one purpose of the torture regime was to extract the (non-existent) links between Iraq and Al Qaeda from detainees. There’s also a report that Cheney’s office ordered the torture of an Iraqi detainee. These are important, obscene things to know. 

One point in Wilkerson’s piece relates to the oft-repeated meme: we have to investigate, prosecute, reveal photos in order to be sure this never happens again… 

My investigations have revealed to me–vividly and clearly–that once the Abu Ghraib photographs were made public in the Spring of 2004, the CIA, its contractors, and everyone else involved in administering “the Cheney methods of interrogation”, simply shut down. Nada. Nothing. No torture or harsh techniques were employed by any U.S. interrogator. Period. People were too frightened by what might happen to them if they continued.

In other words, even a scoundrel like Cheney understood that this was out of bounds–and, once revealed, stopped doing it. Which raises the question, again, about what use the revelation of more photos would have–other than endangering the lives of American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, an argument that has yet to be engaged, so far as I know, by those who are so intent on getting the photos out. I don’t think the release of those photos is worth a single American life, not a single American pinky. And you can be sure that the photos–of  practices that existed for a brief time, but ceased long ago (and aren’t remotely likely to be revived by the current Administration)–would have a dramatic effect on the jihadis, and potential recruits, in those war zones. 

So what do we do to prevent this horror from happening again? Torture is illegal. It’s also in the eye of the beholder. I believe that any rational human being would understand that waterboarding, stress positions, etc etc are forms of torture. One of the problems with prosecuting the Bush miscreants, who will argue that they gave a good-faith interpretation of existing treaties and statutes, is that most non-ACLU lawyers believe they are likely to be acquitted–which would probably be seen as a validation of Bush torture policy, a disastrous unintended consequence.

But what about those photos? Isn’t there some value in making people more aware of the practices? You could argue–with polling and focus groups to back you up–that most people would see this stuff as (a) tame compared to the things they see in movies and on tv and (b) called for, if the result is actionable intelligence about terrorist acts. (Indeed, the John Kerry campaign conducted such focus groups in 2004, with the result that the candidate never mentioned these outrages during the campaign, not even after the White House link was definitively reported in the Washington Post.) I’d argue that the practices people really need to be aware of are the non-brutal interrogation techniques practiced by the FBI that were successful in gaining cooperation from Abu Zubaydah and other prisoners. The best way to publicize these practices is via Hollywood–one hope the producers of 24 would take note. In fact, David Ignatius wrote about the power of non-brutal interrogation in his last novel, Body of Lies–although I can’t recall if that material made it into the movie. I’d love to see an episode of 24 where Jack Bauer tortures someone and gets false information, while the FBI gets the real story from some creative interrogation. 

The truth is, there really is only one way to prevent this from ever happening again:  through an informed electorate that refuses to be demagogued–and refuses to elect uninformed, Oedipally-impaired bullies like George W. Bush.

Update: The CIA won’t release, for the moment (pending an Freedom of Information Act request), the so-called Cheney memos. Too Bad. I would love to see what Cheney considers exculpatory…And for those commenters who don’t see the difference between these memos and the photos, it’s simple–the memos would (a) advance our knowledge of the situation and (b) not be likely inflame our enemies in Afghanistan. And for those commenters who persist in mis-describing my position: I believe what the Bush Administration did was torture. I don’t think, given the vagaries of the law (i.e. the probability that you can argue that you interpreted the statutes in good faith with a different interpretation of torture than mine), that these will be successful prosecutions. I don’t see what officially letting the Bush miscreants off the hook gets us. 

And for those commenters who doubt the accuracy of my reporting–about the Rumsfeld-McKiernan incident and the Kerry focus groups–I had multiple sources (known to my editors) for both, including eyewitnesses in both cases. In the Kerry case, one of my sources conducted the focus groups but is bound to public silence because it is one of the rules of the road when it comes to consultant-politician relationships. Bob Shrum, who supervised two losing Democratic Presidential campaigns that should have been winners, has no credibility on a cornucopia of issues, including this one.

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  • afguy

    Torture is illegal. It’s also in the eye of the beholder.
    .
    Joe,
    .
    Even among those so-called “beholders”, I think it’s more a case of WHO it’s being done to.
    .
    It’s not torture as long as it’s being done to SOMEONE ELSE.

  • afguy

    When Hannity steps up, allows himself to be waterboarded for an extended period, THEN tells everyone that there’s “nothing to it”, then I’ll allow that they believe it’s not torture at all.

  • slaneyblack

    Jihadis already know this stuff goes on. Everyone in the damn greater Middle East knows this stuff goes on – and worse. The release of these photos will not change the dynamic “over there” one bit.
    .
    What it will change is the discussion back home. That’s what the embedded Cheney Right and their enablers in the media fear.
    .
    My guess is Obama reversed course on this because certain parties in the CIA and Pentagon made him an offer he couldn’t refuse. Let’s hope the courts have the sense and courage not to reverse themselves.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “And you can be sure that the photos would have a dramatic effect on the jihadis”
    .
    I choose to be part of “an informed electorate that refuses to be demagogued”.

  • http://www.124monkeys.com Sean DeCoursey forgot his password

    Gee Joe, you’re right. As long as the torture has stopped, we should just stop worrying that it ever happened. No reason to keep records of it or prosecute anyone. We should also probably pass this bit of wisdom on Germany. That way they can stop paying for all those expensive holocaust museums. ‘Cause no one in Germany has restarted Auschwitz lately, there’s no reason to keep reminding folks of it, right?

  • gysgt213

    Torture is illegal. It’s also in the eye of the beholder.
    .
    WTF? Forcible rape is illegal and a form of torture. Is that in the eye of the beholder? The same can be said for murder. Is that in the eye of the beholder?
    .
    Joe-You constantly come up with these weak sauce arguments that make less sense with each new evolution. Now you are hiding behind the military. You kionw what put our military personnel’s lives at risk? Torturing in the first friggin place! You know what’s putting their lives even more at risk? Refusing to hold anyone accountable. Choosing instead to stick your/our heads in the sand and hiding the evidence.
    .
    I will give you this Joe. You are friggin stubborn despite the mounting evidence that there were serious crimes here and they may not have included the torture in your eye.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Right. Having an administration that based its policy on fantasy, means that we need to fix our fiction.
    .
    I have been increasingly irritated by the impact fiction has on reality. But the way to stop this isn’t to fix the fiction. Politicians and media figures need to stop treating it as a source of information and metaphor.
    .
    As for the throwaway “non-ACLU lawyers” crack, can we please have someone who thinks this speak on the record and explain why these heinous acts will not be seen for what they are?

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    The truth is, there really is only one way to prevent this from ever happening again: through an informed electorate that refuses to be demagogued–and refuses to elect uninformed, Oedipally-impaired bullies like George W. Bush.
    .
    The thing is that it is hard to have an informed electorate when our sources of information serve as stenographers and enablers. When Hoekstra can just flat out lie, and Joe repeats the lies, or when Bill Keller spikes a story about illegal conduct by the President himself, becoming informed is pretty tricky.

  • afguy

    I have been increasingly irritated by the impact fiction has on reality. But the way to stop this isn’t to fix the fiction. Politicians and media figures need to stop treating it as a source of information and metaphor.
    .
    I agree, jay.
    .
    The answer to the outsized influence of Jack Bauer and episodes of “24″ on our policy discourse is NOT to produce more episodes of “24″, just with a different theme.
    .
    Certain of our judicial and political leadership needs to grow up and turn off the ‘tube. The youth ain’t the only ones suffering from too much of that.

  • Paul-no not that one

    As long as you are throwing #2 against the wall
    .
    “the John Kerry campaign conducted such focus groups in 2004″
    .
    It should be noted that Shrum thinks you are full of it.
    .

    When I contacted Shrum, he said that Klein’s characterization of the campaign’s response to Abu Gharib is “inaccurate.” “It is misleading to say that the campaign reaction to Abu Gharib was to hold a focus group,” Shrum told me, adding that while the torture scandal may have come up from time to time, there was never a session devoted to it: “We held focus groups all the time. In those focus groups I have no doubt that Abu Gharib was mentioned. But coming out of that there was no recommendation to the candidate that he should never talk about it. I would have known if this recommendation was going to be made.”

    Shrum added: “[Kerry] never received any advice not to talk about Abu Gharib. I certainly never gave him that advice.”
    .
    But you didn’t call Kerry “Frenchy” so it’s not as if you haven’t grown.

  • gysgt213

    “One of the problems with prosecuting the Bush miscreants, who will argue that they gave a good-faith interpretation of existing treaties and statutes, is that most non-ACLU lawyers believe they are likely to be acquitted–which would probably be seen as a validation of Bush torture policy, a disastrous unintended consequence.”
    .
    Before I go blind from rage let me depense with this bull crap argument of yours as well.
    .
    One of the basis of our criminal justice system is that people are innocent until they are proven guilty in a court of law. Accused can be found guilty, not guilty, acquitted and be subject to a number of other finding none of which ever validates the conduct they were accused of.

  • queencersei

    You want to keep this from happening again? A good deterrent would be for a former V.P., Defense Secretary and perhaps even former President to be charged and convicted and then spend some time cooling their heels in a federal penitentiary.
    Or you could just ignore it all and hope another administration doesn’t do a repeat or worse.
    Also, how can the electorate be informed when it is not presented with all the evidence?

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    “I don’t think the release of those photos is worth a single American life, not a single American pinky. And you can be sure that the photos–of practices that existed for a brief time, but ceased long ago (and aren’t remotely likely to be revived by the current Administration)–would have a dramatic effect on the jihadis, and potential recruits, in those war zones. ”
    .
    What is your evidence for this claim?
    .
    This is the same fear mongering argument used for the last 8 years.

  • plukasiak

    Wilkerson is in no position to know whether torture was used during Bush’s second term — he didn’t serve during the last eight years of the Bush administration. And given what we know about Cheney and his ilk, the idea that torture did not continue to be employed is almost risible.

  • textee

    When does Joe Klein plan on producing any evidence to support his comical, ridiculous and false allegation that Donald Rumsfeld announced that David McKiernan would not get another command after the Klein-alleged incident of McKiernan allegedly falling asleep in the presence of Rumsfeld? Also, how does Klein explain McKiernan taking command of U.S. Army Europe as a four star general after the Klein-alleged announcement by Rumsfeld following the Klein-alleged nap by McKiernan? Crickets?

  • spob

    “The truth is, there really is only one way to prevent this from ever happening again: through an informed electorate that refuses to be demagogued–and refuses to elect uninformed, Oedipally-impaired bullies like George W. Bush.”
    .
    Is this what passes for informed commentary? Joe, have a drink.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    that most non-ACLU lawyers believe they are likely to be acquitted
    .
    I think most ACLU lawyars acknowlege that aquittals are likely as well. That doesn’t mean that you don’t bother gathering evidence or conducting an investigation. And if the actions of the interrogators were as heroic as we are being assured they are, well that’s the whole theory behind “a jury of their peers.”

  • somepeoplelikeit

    I still don’t get the anger. These photos will almost assuredly see the light of day at some point. Considering the Abu Ghraib photos already out…how will releasing these now have an impact? Who will it impact and what will it impact them to do?
    .
    I also want to reiterate that we don’t know what’s going to happen if we get a trial, we just know we want one. Kind of like not having a stategy once we got to Iraq, just knowing we needed to get there.
    .
    What if they are acquitted? Certainly there’s a long list of court decisions that boggle the mind.
    What if a terrorist attack occurs “mid-trial”?
    What if a large segment of the country comes to their own conclusion that they were just “trying to protect us”? And it has an impact on elections?
    .
    Can we get Obama into a second term? Can we not do what we accuse them of doing, which is rush into something without really knowing what we’re getting into?

  • spob

    And by the way, Joe, perhaps you didn’t notice–Chuckie Schumer was cool with it, and so was that lying harpy, Nancy Pelosi.

  • pierogielunaire

    We sent reservists to prison for torturing prisoners, but no one has the stomach to prosecute the people who planned out torture in detail and approved its use. Disgusting.

  • Ivy_B

    most non-ACLU lawyers believe they are likely to be acquitted
    .
    Joe this is drivel.

  • shepherdwong

    “Which raises the question, again, about what use the revelation of more photos would have…”
    .
    “But what about those photos? Isn’t there some value in making people more aware of the practices?”
    .
    “The truth is, there really is only one way to prevent this from ever happening again: through an informed electorate…”
    .
    You do realize that your reflexive support of your authority figures has now caused you loss your mind, along with your soul.

  • Ivy_B

    And, how come so much attention to Cheney. Why should he set the debate – or change the subject.
    .
    Why so little attention to the testimony yesterday of Ali Soufan? sgw posted quite a lot yesterday on your Filthy Pictures post, but that’s the only mention in the Swamp. Would seem to be your area, Joe.

  • bensay

    It’s not the images of abuse that might incite violence abroad. It’s that the abuse has gone almost entirely unpunished. Look at Obama’s decisions in tandem: 1. We won’t prosecute. 2. We won’t show you the evidence. And people are angry at the ACLU? This is Newsweek-Koran redux.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    spob,
    “But Mommy- Nancy did it too!” is not a defense. You’d think by now that you’d realize that constant repetition only makes you appear idiotic.
    .
    What Nancy knew when is a meaningless distraction. Ali Sofans testimony on the other hand……
    .
    http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/statement-of-fbi-agent-ali-soufan-at-torture-hearings/
    .
    H/T SG….

  • cdrwayne

    Having attended SERE school in 1966 prior to a tour in Vietnam, I can assure Joe that waterboarding is torture.
    .
    To those who don’t think this is true, why don’t you volunteer to take Chickensh!t Hannity’s place.
    .
    I agree 100% with gysgt, those who allow torture to occur need to be prosecuted.

  • Cliff

    The truth is, there really is only one way to prevent this from ever happening again: through an informed electorate that refuses to be demagogued–and refuses to elect uninformed, Oedipally-impaired bullies like George W. Bush.
    .
    And so we get that electorate by hiding evidence and avoiding investigations?
    .
    That doesn’t make a damn lick of sense, Joe. Nothing in this column does.
    .
    There’s also a report that Cheney’s office ordered the torture of an Iraqi detainee. These are important, obscene things to know.
    .
    But then you spend the rest of the column doing this soft-shoe shuffle about how we need to move on.
    .
    How stupid do you think we are?

  • cdrwayne

    Should be “not true”.

  • Ivy_B

    More interesting quote from the Wilkerson article –
    .
    “[W]hat I have learned,” Wilkerson writes, “is that as the administration authorized harsh interrogation in April and May of 2002–well before the Justice Department had rendered any legal opinion–its principal priority for intelligence was not aimed at pre-empting another terrorist attack on the U.S. but discovering a smoking gun linking Iraq and al-Qa’ida.
    .
    “So furious was this effort that on one particular detainee, even when the interrogation team had reported to Cheney’s office that their detainee ‘was compliant’ (meaning the team recommended no more torture), the VP’s office ordered them to continue the enhanced methods. The detainee had not revealed any al-Qa’ida-Baghdad contacts yet. This ceased only after Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, under waterboarding in Egypt, ‘revealed’ such contacts. Of course later we learned that al-Libi revealed these contacts only to get the torture to stop.

    .

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I too, note the irony of Joe proclaiming the virtues of an informed electorate while defending censorship.
    .
    Classic.

  • 53_3

    I’ve changed my tune and have totally become a flipflopper on the prosecute the torturers issue. Besides, we won’t need to waterboard Cheney.
    .
    He’s singing like a bird.
    .
    BTW, hot news and purely for your entertainment. A major food fight at one of our local schools!
    .
    http://www.king5.com/localnews/north/stories/NW_051409WAB-jackson-high-food-fight-TP.210f408.html

  • Art Pepper

    OMG.
    .
    Joe Klein in 1974: Breaking and entering is in the eye of the beholder. I think most Americans know that burglary is not acceptible. But there is only one way to prevent Watergate from happening again: Ignore it and hope for the best!
    .
    (and aren’t remotely likely to be revived by the current Administration)
    .
    You know, it’s really unfortunate that we have a system of enlightened despotism, in which we have to rely on the president not to abuse his unlimited power.
    .
    If the Founders had been thinking, they would have set up a system to check this imperial power, and provide some kind of balance.

  • Art Pepper

    53_3: Are you near Mill Creek? I’m in Bellevue!

  • Art Pepper
  • Paul-no not that one

    Fifty that looked like a couple of weekend threads the Swamp has had.

  • choska

    Salon.com is reporting that we were raping children in front of the mothers: http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2004/07/15/hersh/index.html
    .
    1) Don’t you think the Arab world already knows what we did? They have news outlets like Al Jazeera that have been showing the facts – as ugly as the are – for nearly a decade now. How much more pissed off could the possibly be?
    .
    2) This isn’t about US soliders, this is about the US people coming face to face with the monstrous activities that were conducted in their name. Yes it will be ugly. Yes it will be disturbing. But Cheney and the rest of the monsters in the Bush administration were authorizing torture against children and women who were clearly innocent. They weren’t trying to get info, they were just a bunch of murdering sadists.
    .
    3) If what Salon says is true, that we were sodomizing children in front of their mothers, how can ANYONE say that the right punishment for this activity is to have a few television episodes speaking poorly of what happened. I am horrified that anyone would think that what Joe is proposing here is an appropriate punishment.
    .
    Will the release of this information create a backlash against US soldiers and US citizens? That is a near certainty.
    .
    Is the info already out there? Yes.
    .
    Should we add the likelihood of American deaths to Cheney’s tab. Yes.
    .
    Hundreds of thousands of people, both US, Arab, Persian, and Kurd, are dead because of Dick Cheney and George Bush. We know Cheney ORDERED the torture of innocent people, which might include children, to try to build a link between al Queda and Iraq. Yet Joe wants to punish the neocons with a few plot twists in 24. It is a horrific proposition that reveals something profoundly disturbing about the moral bankruptcy of the DC establishment.

  • 53_3

    Art:
    .
    Fairwood. I think Mill Creek is east of us.

  • 53_3

    “Fifty that looked like a couple of weekend threads the Swamp has had.”
    .
    Some of ‘em were pleasurable memories, indeed. Others?
    .
    Not…

  • Art Pepper

    JK: Thanks for responding to comments. I think you’re wrong on this issue, but I think it’s an honest disagreement. (I still reserve the right to mock your view, however.)

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    Klein must be proud of helping cover up the rape of children. How much intelligence did we get from that Klein?

  • textee

    Another Democrat has been exposed as a phony member of the United States military. This one’s a phony “Marine”. http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=10619. View all of the videos. Pay particular attention to all of the dingbats/Obama voters in the videos, who, predictably, ate up this fraud’s garbage.

  • Cliff

    The best way to publicize these practices is via Hollywood–one hope the producers of 24 would take note. In fact, David Ignatius wrote about the power of non-brutal interrogation in his last novel, Body of Lies–although I can’t recall if that material made it into the movie.
    .
    Also, this is the stupidest thing I’ve heard all day.

  • rustyreturns

    Well it is time for Obama to release all memos, all pictures and everything connected with the so-called torture “scandal” to be brought out into the open. The far left liberal extremists and the flame beaters are not going to allow this to go quietly into history.
    .
    Let the chips fall as they may. It is now clearly evident that the Joe Klein’s of the world only wish the utmost and dangerous situations to fall upon our military men and women, just to prove a liberal talking point. Disgusting.
    .
    It is all a political gotcha game to you people, which is clearly evident by the comments on this very site. Sickening, and it is no wonder liberals have been tagged “un-patriotic” for the past 40 some years that I have been aware enough to know what it means.
    .
    You people do not care about this country or how many people die as a result of your incessant ranting and raving, feigning faux outrage over one of the most critical times in our history. If you are so hell bent on making sure the “world knows all about this”, then please buy a plane ticket to the Swat Valley in Pakistan and give your apologies to the Taliban. One less liberal to pollute our streets as your head is lopped off your shoulders and rolls down the street.

  • Cliff

    And for those commenters who don’t see the difference between these memos and the photos
    .
    Who would that be, exactly?

  • queencersei

    And here I thought that the conservatives supported the concept of law and order and the justice system. Apparently not when it comes to covering up their misdeeds.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Hey Rusty,
    Maybe someone should have thought about the repercusions while they were shoving the glowstick up the guy’s ass instead of waiting for the movie to come out.

  • shepherdwong

    “I don’t think, given the vagaries of the law (i.e. the probability that you can argue that you interpreted the statutes in good faith with a different interpretation of torture than mine), that these will be successful prosecutions.”
    .
    Is that your current bullsh*t rationalization for why we shouldn’t try to hold to account authorities who committed war crimes in our name or your bullsh*t rationalization for why we shouldn’t see more damning proof that we should? And did you consult any lawyers who weren’t members of the Centrist Village in good standing? Or any at all, for that matter.

  • choska

    What are you talking about, Rusty? Joe is on your side on this one.
    .
    And I’m glad to know that you think raping children in front of their mothers is patriotic behavior. Says a lot about you and your vision for the United States.
    .
    Between the Taliban who do want to kill Americans, and “real Amuricans” like you who think it is okay to torture innocent people to death and sodomize children, this is a great world we live in.

  • bitterpill8

    Joe: Why is it that once the people in the Village are at risk then the case become one of not providing more pictures to help AlQ recruitment. What about those guards who went to prison after the Abu Ghraib incidents. Why was there no effort to pardon them (as was done with Scooter)? Why was it ok for those grunts to go to prison while the characters up the chain of command get a pass. My guess is that Lynndie and Grainer are (or were) Republicans: did not help them. Too far down the food chain. I recall a working class song about “it’s we who get the blame”. How about an interview with Lyndie and Grainer????

  • apollyon07

    I agree that a systematic implementation of torture is reprehensible, but let’s not try to pretend that if we treated out prisoners alright that savages like Al-Qaeda would be less inclined to torture our people and cut their heads off. They will do this no matter what, and any way, it’s beside the point.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Except, of course, that Shrum is on the record. What possible purpose is served by anonymity granted to a Kerry campaign staffer?

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    Why isn’t Klein arguing for the release of Lynndie and Grainer? Surely their incarceration is endangering our troops in the field.

  • sevenoaks07

    JK: your colleague, a prominent and mouthy Republican, Joe Scarborough has no problem droning on and on about the torture issue. He is one of the great distortionists who pollute the morning airwaves. It seems he has not taken Mika’s father’s crit: JS is stunningly superficial. And one can say this about the whole Village “discussion” and reporting on this topic.

  • jcapan

    “I don’t think the release of those photos is worth a single American life, not a single American pinky.”
    ~
    Wear that flag Joe, bleed for your nation, you hacktacular jingoistic gutter whore. Cuz god knows those 130+ who were bombed to death last week (how many pinkies you f@cking wanker?) concern you not in the least. Add a 100,000 Iraqis et al–none can possibly matter as much as “a single American life”
    ~
    “The truth is, there really is only one way to prevent this from ever happening again: through an informed electorate that refuses to be demagogued–and refuses to elect uninformed, Oedipally-impaired bullies like George W. Bush.”
    ~
    A la your unironic mention of “justice” in your column, this is said without shame? How could the electorate be informed when you and your ilk turned away in the runup to war, that you failed to call it out forcefully when the Bush admin. repeatedly stressed the Saddam-911 link. OMFG, I need a cold shower.

  • juniusredivivus

    One question that comes to mind ever more forcibly as I read this insincere drivel from Joe Klein:

    How much did Joe Klein know and choose to conceal? Why else is he an apologist for concealing torture?

    The nonsense about how these photos would inflame the situation wouldn’t convince a child. Abu Ghraib has been on the net for years. What is far more dangerous is letting the imaginations and false claims of the jihadis run wild: “Think how bad the pictures must be if even Honest Obama tries to hide them. I hear they show Bush and Cheney raping children together.” And until those pictures are published, the claims cannot be refuted.

  • shepherdwong

    “Why isn’t Klein arguing for the release of Lynndie and Grainer”
    .
    They are powerless grunts. Klein’s concern is only for the powerful, pretty much at the expense of everything that really matters: truth, justice, morality, American ideals, you name it.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Joe Klein I will say this for the last time, Barack Obama won’t be president forever. And it was sh*tty journalism like yours that allowed the populous to be led into the war in Iraq although I note you don’t take ownership of it. And now just like then you are telling us to just walk away and not question anything. Just let it go because all of your Villager friends tell you its a no no. So what happens when you or the next Joe Klein covers for the Next President who tortures and tells us all to just move on once again. If you followed the damn testimony yesterday one of the things that was revealed by Phillip Zelikow is that even AFTER the McCain anti torture bill was passed the OLC lawyers were still arguing that it didn’t apply to the EITs. You really should read this to understand just how phucking wrong you are about what did or didn’t happen after 2004.
    .
    http://judiciary.senate.gov/pdf/09-05-13ZelikowTestimony.pdf
    .
    Key exerpt
    .

    By the end of 2005 these debates in both the executive and legislative branches did lead to real change. On December 5, as Secretary Rice left on a European trip, she formally announced on behalf of the President that the “CID” standard would govern U.S. conduct by any agency. anywhere in the world. On December 30 the McCain amendment (to a defense appropriations bill) was signed into law as well, as the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005. Thus by early 2006 there was no way for the administration to avoid the need to reevaluate the CIA program against a “CID” standard. The work of the NSC deputies intensified, working to develop a comprehensive set of proposals for presidential decision about the future of the CIA program and the future of Guantanamo. The OLC had guarded against the contingency of a substantive “CID” review in its May 30, 2005 opinion. OLC had held that, even if the standard did apply, the full CIA program ‐‐ including waterboarding – complied with it. This OLC view also meant, in effect, that the McCain amendmentas a nullity; it would not prohibit the very program and procedures Senator McCain and his supporters thought they had targeted.

    .
    If you think the OLC was still pushing for EITs just for the hell of it then you are a fool. And sooner or later if nothing else comes of all of this there will be another leader in this country who decideds that torture is an acceptable means to an end. Joe Klein you are officially the Harry Reid of journalism. You are so phucking scared that if they are prosecuted Bush officials will get off that you are not advocating no prosecutions at all. Well as for me I would MUCH RATHER have them go to trial and then let the cards fall where they may. At least we will know what kind of country we really live in.

  • afguy

    I agree that a systematic implementation of torture is reprehensible, but let’s not try to pretend that if we treated out prisoners alright that savages like Al-Qaeda would be less inclined to torture our people and cut their heads off.
    .
    apollyon07,
    .
    I think the argument is not that hardcore al-Qeida would treat anyone better because of our treatment of prisoners, it’s that the normally sane and civil Muslim populace would be less inclined to come to the conclusion that al-Qeida might have a point about us being barbarians (and therefore likely to join their cause against the foreigners) if we acted less like said barbarians ourselves.
    .
    Just my personal take on that.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Bob Shrum has no credibility on a cornucopia of issues.
    .
    Agreed I understand he once wrote a book and denied he was the author going so far as to decieve his readers and coleagues.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    PNNTO
    .
    LOL “Oh no you did ent”

  • juniusredivivus

    Well, say one thing for Joe, sooner or later his primary colors always emerge from under the mask of integrity and impartiality.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I find it interesting that apollyono7 is willing to refer to someone as “savages”. I wonder what it is he thinks that separates ‘savages’ from non-savages.

  • afguy

    Well, say one thing for Joe, sooner or later his primary colors always emerge from under the mask of integrity and impartiality.
    .
    Jeez, the knives are out now. I’m bringing this popcorn… this could get good!

  • apollyon07

    afguy, that IS a good point, and I think that you’re probably right. It’s important to make the distinction between people who’s hearts and minds are up for grabs and the hardcore people that are hopelessly lost.

    PNNTO- Didn’t he say he’d stake his journalistic credibility on the truthfulness of his denial? Whoops!

  • jcapan

    Sullivan: We appear to be nearing a happy ending in the case of Roxana Saberi, the American journalist detained by Iran and accused of being a spy. But ask yourself [Joe Klein] this hypothetical and distressing question.
    ~
    If Saberi had confessed on Iranian television that she was a spy, and if the New York Times discovered that prior to this confession, she had been kept in solitary confinement in freezing temperatures, had been slammed against a wall twenty times in a row, and had then been shackled from the ceiling for days in such a way that the pain was excruciating, and had been blasted in her cell with extremely loud noises to keep her from sleeping for a week …
    ~
    … do you think the New York Times would report that she had been “tortured”? Or would they adhere to their current practice and say she had been subject to “harsh interrogation”?
    ~
    If the leaders of Iran publicly stated that they had succeeded in proving that she was indeed a spy and her confession showed it, would Dick Cheney believe them? And would Bill O’Reilly proudly argue that the Saberi case proves that “harsh interrogation” “works”?

  • jcapan

    Another one for “not a single American pinky” Joe Klein (courtesy of GG):
    ~
    http://lh4.ggpht.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/Sgwja8lol2I/AAAAAAAAB2Y/DfhvQ-33rY8/s1600-h/afghanistan.png

  • textee

    shepherdwong Says:
    Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 4:45 pm
    “Why isn’t Klein arguing for the release of Lynndie and Grainer”
    .
    “They are powerless grunts.”

    -

    No. Those two were not “grunts”. They were REMFs or Rear Echelon M—-r F—–s.

  • rustyreturns

    choska, what are you implying? Are You saying that our military raped children in front of their mothers? Has the liberal lies and psychosis gone so far as to equate our military with the likes of Ghengis Khan?
    .
    You people never cease to amaze me in your fictional fairy land hallucinations.

  • 53_3

    apollyon07:
    .
    I don’t think anyone here really believes that they (al-Queda) are all warm and fuzzy inside.
    .
    Even besides what the right wing “psychoanalysts” say about what goes on in the minds of “libruls”.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    “It is all a political gotcha game to you people, which is clearly evident by the comments on this very site. Sickening, and it is no wonder liberals have been tagged “un-patriotic” for the past 40 some years that I have been aware enough to know what it means.”
    .
    We have been tagged unpatriotic for 40 years because your side believed that would be a good way to get elected, rather than using real arguments for why someone should vote for you. It wouldn’t matter if we were patriotic or not, you would still accuse us of not being so, just like Palin accused people living in big cities of being unpatriotic, just a few months ago. Every time you open your mouth you call Liberals traitors so spare us the argument that this time is different. You are like the boy who cried wolf who no one believes.

  • nathan7777

    So rusty, if I understand you correctly, this means you think a President should be able to violate international laws, domestic laws, and human rights laws whenever he feels like it? If not, where do you draw the line?
    .
    Are you saying waterboarding, stress positions, sleep deprivation, and exposure to the elements are not torture? You do realize that the US “borrowed” these techniques from the Koreans, who were using them on US soldiers during the Korean war, and that the US decried these techniques as torture when the Koreans did it 50 years ago, which is the very reason why we started the SEER program in the first place, right? You do know this right?
    .
    But wait, it’s not torture if it’s done to our enemies you say? It doesn’t count as long as the person we are torturing really deserves it? Well, by that reasoning, anyone in the world can torture anyone at any time as long as they believed the person they were torturing was their enemy — meaning that it’s OK for Al Qaeda to torture US soldiers because if Al Qaeda is our enemy then we are certainly Al Qaeda’s enemy.
    .
    But wait, now you say it’s not their status as our enemy that matters so much as where they fall on the good vs evil spectrum. It’s OK to torture someone that’s evil. But if we are saying that the Koreans were evil because they tortured, then doesn’t that make anyone who tortures, including US officials, just a little bit evil?
    .
    Ok, well maybe none of that really matters. Maybe what really matters is that torture should be used whenever we need to save American lives, and through saving all those lives the torturer will be exonerated. I’ll accept that argument if you’ll accept that it also means that by not saving any lives, if torture produces no actionable intelligence, or even false or misleading information, then the torturer should be prosecuted for his crimes — because, by the previous logic, torture is only not torture if it can save the lives of innocent Americans.
    .
    Your logic for believing that torture is OK is really nothing more than a tightly wound ball of string — pull one thread and the whole thing unravels.

  • afguy

    It’s important to make the distinction between people who’s hearts and minds are up for grabs and the hardcore people that are hopelessly lost.
    .
    apollyon07, that statement could be used to describe some of the hardcore ‘right’ and ‘left’ in this country, couldn’t it? I know you’re conservative but, in some ways, your expressions and opinions remind me of my daughter down in FL. Our disagreements can be strong but civil.
    .
    I hope you take that as a compliment. It was meant that way.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    I know so many of my fellow commenters are wedded to their point of view and nothing I am going to say is going to change that. But at the very least some of you can be a little more honest in your assessments of the impacts of those pictures in the theater of war. As Americans we read or hear about a lot of things, but rarely does this country rise to the occasion unless we are forced to contend with powerful visuals. I’m sure most of America had heard about Jim Crow but it was the visuals of fire hoses and dogs that moved this country. We heard about starvation and upheaval in Africa and then we saw the starving children of Biafra. Katrina ring any bells or didn’t we all think the government was functional and impartial until we saw the black faces trapped in the water. So give me a break about the photos don’t matter. A picture is worth a thousand words and cost us all our emotions.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress last year, after viewing a large cache of unreleased images, “I mean, I looked at them last night, and they’re hard to believe.” They show acts “that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane,” he added.

    A Republican Senator suggested the same day they contained scenes of “rape and murder.” Rumsfeld then commented, “If these are released to the public, obviously it’s going to make matters worse.”

  • nathan7777

    A picture is worth a thousand words and cost us all our emotions.
    .
    But arguing that the pictures should not be released for fear of inflaming anti-American sentiment is the same argument that China uses to justify keeping journalists out of Tibet.

  • hellslittlestangel

    “I don’t think, given the vagaries of the law (i.e. the probability that you can argue that you interpreted the statutes in good faith with a different interpretation of torture than mine), that these will be successful prosecutions.”

    It’s been my experience that when people are full of sh!t, they start using words that they don’t know the meaning of in order to sound thoughtful. Look up “vagary” in the dictionary, Joe.
    .
    And I’ll say again: Release the photos and lock up the torturers — if you think it should be the other way around, there’s something really wrong with your mind.

  • nathan7777

    Look up “vagary” in the dictionary, Joe.
    .
    Haha. Ouch.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    I get that Dee. So let’s pull out the soldiers. That is the only way to keep them safe in any case.

  • afguy

    A Republican Senator suggested the same day they contained scenes of “rape and murder.” Rumsfeld then commented, “If these are released to the public, obviously it’s going to make matters worse.”
    .
    I guess I just have to ask how we can hear others describe what the pictures show and keep telling ourselves that, if we can keep these photos from seeing the light of day, that somehow the problem of what we have done will all go away.
    .
    We are getting hip-deep in defense lawyerthink here – evidence suppression. If we can somehow keep the evidence from being seen, then maybe we can rationalize at some future date that these crimes really didn’t happen with a really spiffy marketing campaign (like the one Cheney is embarking on right now).
    .
    Morally, we will be bankrupt and we will pay for that mindset sooner or later. But those among us with no conscience will be able to sleep a little better at night because there was no formal trial, so, technically, we were never officially found guilty of anything.
    .
    And that’s all that counts, isn’t it?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I wonder how much less this would be on everybody’s radar if Cheney could learn to keep his mouth shut….

  • afguy

    Look up “vagary” in the dictionary, Joe.
    .
    Isn’t that a “little blue pill” they advertize on TV/cable?
    .
    Sorry . . . couldn’t resist.

  • afguy

    I wonder how much less this would be on everybody’s radar if Cheney could learn to keep his mouth shut….
    .
    Paul,
    .
    The MSM would LOVE for this to go away. Lots of politicians from BOTH parties would LOVE for this to disappear. It’s not a point of pride for ANYONE in Congress who was a party to it in ANY way.
    .
    He’s almost making it impossible for an investigation NOT to be held. Luckily for us…

  • shepherdwong

    “So give me a break about the photos don’t matter. A picture is worth a thousand words and cost us all our emotions.”
    .
    It’s what the photos show that matter. And it is exactly this sort of argument that confuses us about what matters and I say that as someone who is somewhat ambivalent about their release. Abu Ghraib hurt us more than we will ever be able to calculate. But further secrecy and failing to hold ourselves to account for our actions is surely another self-defeating choice (the truth come out anyway, in spite of our visible, deplorable attempts to cover it up).
    .
    We need to rip the band-aid off before we can start licking our wounds.

  • rustyreturns

    “Are you saying waterboarding, stress positions, sleep deprivation, and exposure to the elements are not torture?”
    .
    Yes I am saying I do not believe that the interrogation methods used as you state above are not, I’ll repeat as your dear leader Nancy P said, “NOT, it’s NOT torture”. PERIOD.
    .
    Breaking a prisoner’s bones is torture. Pulling fingernails out is torture. Driving bambo shoots into the eardrums is torture. Raping a young boy up the A$$ (if choska’s sources are credible) is torture, hanging someone from a door by their elbows is torture, but spashing water on someeone’s face? Depriving them of sleep? Stress “positions”? are all torture? Give me a break. I had more “torture” in football camp than any of the detainees had at the hands of the CIA.
    .
    It is simply liberal hype and political hackjobs, nothing more and nothing less.
    .
    If I had the decision to make to splash a little water on someone’s face who I thought may have knowledge to potentially save thousand’s of lives, I would do it without blinking one eyelash.
    .
    If you believe the terrorists in question are so innocent and should be treated with every right bestowed on every American, then please write to your Congressman or woman and beg them to allow those terrorists to be trasnferred out of Gitmo and into your community. Let the terrorist you are defending live with your family and watch them take the sword of Allah to your children’s heads and do nothing about it. My bet is you would either pi$$ your panties or if given a gun you would shoot the ba$tard right through the eyes to stop him.
    .
    It is a war, and wars are not pretty. Wars are not for the faint of heart either. In your utopian world everyone is perfect and no evil exists. But, evil does exist and evil shall suffer the consequences of their actions.

  • rose83

    I too, note the irony of Joe proclaiming the virtues of an informed electorate while defending censorship.
    .
    Paul Dirks, well said.
    .
    Cliff, I’m going to have to disagree with you and say this is the stupidest thing I’ve seen all day:
    .
    Which raises the question, again, about what use the revelation of more photos would have–other than endangering the lives of American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, an argument that has yet to be engaged, so far as I know, by those who are so intent on getting the photos out. I don’t think the release of those photos is worth a single American life, not a single American pinky. And you can be sure that the photos–of practices that existed for a brief time, but ceased long ago (and aren’t remotely likely to be revived by the current Administration)–would have a dramatic effect on the jihadis, and potential recruits, in those war zones.
    .
    People in the Middle East and elsewhere know – and what’s more important, truly understand – that America tortures. This is no “revelation” for them. Joe, the CIA and their allies are determined to keep Americans ignorant of what our enemies already know.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    But, evil does exist and evil shall suffer the consequences of their actions.
    .
    Thanks Rusty. Couldn’t have said it better myself……oh wait!

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Yeah, if Joe really wanted to do some actual reporting on this it would revolve around WTF Cheney thinks he is doing.

  • rustyreturns

    Also, I’m still waiting for someone to show me where it says water-boarding, sleep deprevation and stress positions are torture towards terrorists? Where is the law which was passed by Nancy Pinhead and company that ordered all of these things to be deemed torture? Where is the bill that Nancy penned after she was apprised of the techniques but vetoed by Bush deeming these techniques as being torture? Where are all the speeches made by Nancy and friends of the far left liberal extremists condeming the actions put forth by Bush and Chenney?
    .
    Ooops, there ISN’T any! None, Nil, and NADA! The outrage is if Nancy believed that this was indeed torture, she should have shouted out from the highest hilltop at the time to all Americans and then brought it up for a National vote. She shouldn’t have waited until 2009 to give her lame excuses as to why she wasn’t part of the decision making processes.

  • shepherdwong

    “I had more “torture” in football camp than any of the detainees had at the hands of the CIA.”
    .
    Is that right? So how many people were murdered in your football camp? Cretin.

  • sacredh

    Once the photos from Abu Grhaib were made public they stopped the harsh interrogation techniques because the CIA and the contractors were afraid of what might happen to THEM if they contiued?
    Isn’t that one hell of an argument FOR releasing the photos? Does this mean they would have continued torturing people if the photos hadn’t been released? Does this mean that only when the photos saw the light of day that they realized how horrific their crimes were? It would be criminal not to have trials. Even if they get acquitted, the people who allowed and committed these crimes deserve to be branded as the anti-American criminals that they are. People screaming “murderer” and “torturer” at Cheney every time he goes out in public is at the very least what he deserves.

  • 53_3

    “I had more “torture” in football camp than any of the detainees had at the hands of the CIA.”
    .
    This statement caught my eye for two reasons:
    .
    1. Rusty must have been tortured by the CIA?
    2. Rusty played football?
    .
    Let me guess. Rusty is not only an esteemed physician*1, but also a former (current?) football player*2?
    .
    *1 Note the Hippocratic oath
    *2 Note the high level diversity of football teams

  • sevenoaks07

    rose83: you are so right. The Arabs know that we have scumbags among us who torture just as they have scumbags among theirs who behead, torture, etc.

    We are no better than AlQ. Amomg our soldiers and defense establishment we have the same nuts that AlQ has.

    We are both uncivilised barbarians: one uses the Koran to justify its monstrosity; the other uses the Bible.

  • 53_3

    I really thing Obama has made a bad decision on this. He really is assuming that people will associate these photos with the current situation.
    .
    On top of that, whenever one holds something behind their back, virtually everyone wants to know what is being hidden.
    .
    Just getting on record on this.

  • 53_3

    “We are both uncivilised barbarians:”
    .
    We both* believe that the other side is uncivilized. Our crooks do it for altruistic reasons. The others?
    .
    They’re just fanatics…
    .
    US / Al Queda; Dems / GOP

  • nathan7777

    Yes I am saying I do not believe that the interrogation methods used as you state above are not, I’ll repeat as your dear leader Nancy P said, “NOT, it’s NOT torture”. PERIOD.
    .
    So you have no problem with Iran or North Korea using those techniques on American citizens or US soldiers?
    .
    The existence of techniques far worse than waterboarding does not mean anything less than that technique is therefore not torture.
    .
    And as predicted, you fell back on the “I would use this if I could save American lives”. That’s a spurious argument rusty, and it has nothing to do with legality of torture itself. If you had to shoot someone in the head to save a million innocent American’s would you do it? Probably. Does that then make it legal to shoot people in the head? No. Laws are not conditional if statements.
    .
    If you believe the terrorists in question are so innocent and should be treated with every right bestowed on every American, then please write to your Congressman or woman and beg them to allow those terrorists to be trasnferred out of Gitmo and into your community.
    .
    Please point to the sentence in my post where I said “the terrorists in question” are innocent. And if I called you a terrorist, does that mean I can torture you?
    .
    You keep painting everyone as terrorist-sympathizers and then ranting about extraneous events. Does this mean you have absolutely no response to the merciless shredding of your argument? Note that your only response was “those techniques aren’t torture”, even when you know the US prosecuted people after WWII, the Vietnam War, and the Korean War for those exact same techniques.
    .
    Keep trying to argue this with me Rusty, I already preempted every lame argument you can come up with to justify torture.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Off topic
    .
    Inter-party, inter-state, flame war in the republican party.
    .
    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/051209dnmetcornyn.21d51791.html
    .
    Oh its on now. lol

  • shepherdwong

    “It would be criminal not to have trials. Even if they get acquitted, the people who allowed and committed these crimes deserve to be branded as the anti-American criminals that they are. People screaming “murderer” and “torturer” at Cheney every time he goes out in public is at the very least what he deserves.”
    .
    Even money that Bush, Cheney and the torture lawyers will be indicted in an international war crimes tribunal eventually, especially if we fail to prosecute them (successfully or not) here.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/08/national/main3919474.shtml
    .

    (CBS/AP) President George W. Bush said Saturday he vetoed legislation that would ban the CIA from using harsh interrogation methods such as waterboarding to break suspected terrorists because it would end practices that have prevented attacks.
    .
    “The bill Congress sent me would take away one of the most valuable tools in the war on terror,” the president said in his weekly radio address taped for broadcast Saturday. “So today I vetoed it.”
    .
    The bill provides guidelines for intelligence activities for the year and includes the interrogation requirement. It passed the House in December and the Senate last month.
    .
    “This is no time for Congress to abandon practices that have a proven track record of keeping America safe,” the president said.
    .
    Supporters of the legislation say it would preserve the United States’ ability to collect critical intelligence, and raise the country’s moral standing abroad.
    .
    House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Congress would work to override Mr. Bush’s veto next week. “In the final analysis, our ability to lead the world will depend not only on our military might, but on our moral authority,” said Pelosi, a California Democrat.

  • hellslittlestangel

    I have to grudgingly concede that Obama may be doing the right thing, not just politically, but practically. I believe all the nastiness is going to come out, and there will be investigations and maybe even prosecutions of high-level officials (wishful thinking? maybe). It’s important that the head of the Democratic party not be seen as partisan or vindictive (by people who are not slavering wingnuts). But, honestly, it feels like he’s harshing on my moral outrage.
    .
    And has anyone lately said, please don’t feed the trolls?

  • Cliff

    rose: In my defense, that was before rusty opened his damn fool mouth.
    .
    But yes, the passage you quoted reeks of stupidity.
    .
    I was reacting to the thought that “if we just rely on Hollywood to show us the way, everything will be fine!”

  • sacredh

    Please don’t feed the trolls.

  • apollyon07

    Paul Dirks, what do I mean by savages? Hmm, a group of people that straps bombs to people and sends them into crowded town squares? That kidnaps and beheads a man because he’s Jewish (Daniel Pearl)? Just for starters. If you’re saying that the American military is the same as the terrorists, then…wow.
    .
    And afguy, yes it could (that statement). People who adhere to an ideology’s platform just for the sake of adherence are unreasonable. “Our disagreements can be strong but civil”. If only more people in this country realized that.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Apollyon
    .
    Find a really good book on the Vietnam war written by someone who was actually there. I think your eyes will be opened to the fact that some members of our military have definitely be on the same moral ground as terrorists at certain times in our history.

  • sacredh

    apollyon07: I woulldn’t presume to speak for PD, but what I took from his comments was that the rogues in our military are as bad as the worst of them. I’m sure that most of our brave service people are just as horrified as we are that torture went on. We have an all volunteer fighting force and they joined up to protect American ideals and what we stand for. Torture is not what we stand for. I personally believe that the people who tortured are a disgrace and have committed a grave disservice to their fellow soldiers and to our country. Following orders is not an excuse, it’s just a rationalization. The people who ordered the torture are every bit as guilty as the ones who tortured.

  • Cliff

    And has anyone lately said, please don’t feed the trolls?
    .
    Actually I was going to compliment nathan777 on his argument with rusty. I’m glad someone’s taking the time to do it.
    Many of us have been there and we’ve all found out that he doesn’t even notice the evidence you hurl at him.

  • joaquimaugustoleal

    Please TIME, drop this scoundrel Klein from this historic magazine.
    For a 30-year subscriber like me, I feel offended. henry Luce must be revolving in his grave.
    Where is krauthammer, where is Hugh Sidey?

  • rose83

    If you’re saying that the American military is the same as the terrorists, then…wow.
    .
    apollyon07, I would definitely not say the American military has terrorists, or is a terrorist organization. But it is very difficult to come up with a definition for “terrorist organization” that leaves out the American military and includes Hamas, for example. You end up having to rely on distinctions about state status. But then what does that say about America’s actions during the Revolutionary War? How do you include Hamas and not end up calling the founding fathers insurgents? It’s hard to claim that Americans had a greater claim to their independence than Palestinians. Al Qaeda, OTOH, clearly is a terrorist organization.
    .
    Then there’s the “state sponsor of terror” term, which is more logical. But when you start looking at America’s actions in Latin America for example…. it doesn’t look good.
    .
    I do wish people would be a little more precise about words like terrorist and terrorism. But none of this suggests an equivalence between Al Qaeda or even Hamas and the US military. sacredh is undoubtedly right in saying that “most of our brave service people are just as horrified as we are that torture went on.” Perhaps the best indication that America is profoundly opposed to terrorism and other crimes is that elites like Joe are so worried about the consequences of ordinary Americans finding out how their leaders have been behaving.
    .
    Cliff, yes it’s a tough call. Tuesday it was obviously Kara on American Idol, but today it’s a little more difficult…

  • shepherdwong

    “It’s important that the head of the Democratic party not be seen as partisan or vindictive…”
    .
    In my book it’s more important that he not be seen as covering-up war crimes, especially since the charge of “partisan” or “vindictive” can be made up and abused by vindictive partisans.

  • nathan7777

    Here you go Rusty:
    .
    From the United Nations Convention Against Torture (which the US has signed and ratified):
    .
    Article 2 of the convention prohibits torture, and requires parties to take effective measures to prevent it in any territory under its jurisdiction. This prohibition is absolute and non-derogable. “No exceptional circumstances whatsoever”[5] may be invoked to justify torture, including war, threat of war, internal political instability, public emergency, terrorist acts, violent crime, or any form of armed conflict.[6] Torture cannot be justified as a means to protect public safety or prevent emergencies.[6] Neither can it be justified by orders from superior officers or public officials.[7] The prohibition on torture applies to all territories under a party’s effective jurisdiction, and protects all people under its effective control, regardless of citizenship or how that control is exercised.
    .
    From the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
    .
    No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
    .
    From the American Convention on Human Rights:
    .
    For the purposes of this Convention, “person” means every human being.
    .
    And:
    .
    No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman, or degrading punishment or treatment. All persons deprived of their liberty shall be treated with respect for the inherent dignity of the human person.
    .
    From Hamdan v. Rumsfeld:
    .
    The supreme court of the united states found that military commissions set up by the Bush administration to try detainees at Guantanamo Bay lack “the power to proceed because its structures and procedures violate both the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the four Geneva Conventions signed in 1949. Therefore the Geneva Conventions apply to enemy combatants, and therefore:
    .
    The Third Geneva Convention applies which also says:
    .
    No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion may be used on prisoners.
    .
    And torture is prohibited under title 18 of the United States Code of law, section 113.
    .
    And finally, in Boumediene v. Bush, the US Supreme Court found that:
    .
    the [Guantanamo] prisoners had a right to the habeas corpus under the United States Constitution and that the Military Commissions Act (MCA) of 2006 was an unconstitutional suspension of that right.
    .
    So whether you like it not, Rusty, the law just isn’t on your side here. Damn those pesky facts…

  • jcapan

    Flannery O’Connor once said:
    ~
    “The novelist … will find in modern life distortions which are repugnant to him, and his problem will be to make them appear as distortions to an audience which is used to seeing them as natural; and he may be forced to take ever more violent means to get his vision across to this hostile audience. When you can assume that your audience holds the same beliefs you do, you can relax a little and use more normal ways of talking to it; when you have to assume that it does not, then you have to make your vision apparent by shock — to the hard of hearing you shout, and for the blind you draw large and startling figures.”

  • sacredh

    nathan7777: I would like to point out some serious and perhaps fatal flaws in your post. It contains facts. It refers to laws and treaties. It refers to Supreme Court decisions. What on earth do any of those trivialites have to do with presenting a viable argument? You’ll need to post all in caps, swear a great deal and make personal attacks if you hope to prove your point. Honestly. Sheesh.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    Only radical left wing extremists still believe in the rule of law. That is so pre 9/11.

  • sacredh

    Law and order liberals defending the constitution against “real” Americans. Who’d a thunk it?

  • stuartzechman
  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    We are also responsible for forcing young anti-gay, beauty queens to get subsidized breasts, and do porno shoots. In fact, radical left wing extremists are responsible for all the evil in the world.

  • stuartzechman
  • sacredh

    Derek: Just the other night while we were roasting kittens over a burning American flag, the leader of my coven said…

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    I usually just boil Christians, right after I wipe my rear with the flag, and perform a voodoo ritual designed to kill more soldiers. I can only dream of reaching the patriotic heights of a Klein or RustyDog, his trusty sidekick.

  • sacredh

    “I usually just boil Christians”
    Even the cheapest of meats can be doctored up with a little tenderizer and some A-1.

  • sacredh

    Now I’ve gone and offended myself. I think I’d better go to bed and read for awhile. Goodnight folks.

  • rustyreturns

    So whether you like it not, Rusty, the law just isn’t on your side here. Damn those pesky facts…”
    .
    Well, as I have said, and will keep saying it show me where water-boarding, sleep deprevation or humiliation has been ruled by the US Congress and enacted into law as a form of torture.
    .
    To define torture, you must first identify it as such. Your opinion is that the “enhanced interrogation techniques” used and approved by our President was torture. I have the opinion that these techniques are NOT torture. The only place that this will be resolved is in a court of law, in the United States of America. Not at the UN, not in Geneva or any other place on the face of the earth.
    .
    As I said in my first comment on this specific thread. Bring it all out. Show the pictures, let the memos be read and then let the American citizens decide what is or is not torture as defined by our elected officials.
    .
    As I said, show me where the three interrogation techniques used have been deemed torture and I shall be on your band wagon in protest as well. If you can’t, then shut your big fat pie hole!!

  • apollyon07

    @ people up above responding to my last post: I know that a few Americans have committed war atrocities from time to time. Every nation’s soldiers have to some degree. My point was that implying that our military as a group is as bad as the terrorists is hyperbolic nonsense. The vast majority of America’s military are morally upstanding, great soldiers. To use a few bad apples to characterize the group as a whole is wrong. I’d also point out that treating an enemy terrorist/soldier/fighter etc to enhanced interrogation/torture/etc is bad but not the same as doing that, INTENTIONALLY, to civilians.
    .
    @ rose, you ask how is Hamas and the American Revolutionaries different? Easy, the Americans did not intentionally target civilians, instead targeting opposing soldiers, and at least somewhat adhered to the rules of war. They also didn’t call for the destruction of another sovereign nation, but that’s another story.

  • jcapan

    Will Bunch: “For a much-honored newspaper like the Inquirer to pay someone like Yoo to write a regular column is surely the exclamation point on a dark period in which most of my profession flunked its greatest moral test.
    ~
    As an American citizen, I am still reeling from the knowledge that our government tortured people in my name. As a journalist, the fact that my byline and John Yoo’s are now rolling off the same printing press is adding insult to injury.”

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Rusty, That anti-torture statute is right here:
    .
    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_113C.html
    .
    The problem is that compared to the memo’s that were written to try and explain why what the CIA was doing WASN’T torture, it doesn’t contain that many words. It states:

    “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
    It goes on to state:
    (2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
    (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
    (B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
    (C) the threat of imminent death; or
    (D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
    (3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.
    .
    So what sort of convoluted logic is necessary to decide that ‘simulated drowning” doesn’t constitute the threat of imminent death? What sort of logic denies that systematic sleep deprivation is not a procedure calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality?
    .
    The law is plainly written. The Yoo and Baybee memos were not because they had to circumvent a clearly written law with a poorly written excuse.

  • rustyreturns

    The Geneva Conventions do not recognize any lawful status for combatants in conflicts not involving two or more nation states. A state in such a conflict is legally bound only to observe Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions and may ignore all the other Articles. But each one of them is completely free — and should be encouraged — to apply all or part of the remaining Articles of the Convention.[6]
    From the American Convention on Human Rights: Direct quote from your source, “the United States signed it in 1977 but has not proceeded with ratification”.
    .
    From the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
    .
    “No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment”.
    Torture is not defined specifically in the Declaration. It does however have the following link to a definition of “Torture”, but allows the decision of what the definition of torture is up to the Nation being accused of torture.
    “Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is: “any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.”[1]

    Lawful sanction: Military Commissions Act of 2006
    .
    While not a treaty itself, the Declaration was explicitly adopted for the purpose of defining the meaning of the words “fundamental freedoms” and “human rights” appearing in the United Nations Charter, which is binding on all member states.
    Again NOT a treaty. Not a treaty, it is not a law.
    .
    Article 51.3 of the Commentary: IV Geneva Convention also covers this interpretation: “Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.”.[4] In the words of the International Committee of the Red Cross, or ICRC “If civilians directly engage in hostilities, they are considered “unlawful” or “unprivileged” combatants or belligerents
    .
    Last but not least. “Congress addressed these issues in the Military Commissions Act of 2006, so that enemy combatants and unlawful enemy combatants might be tried under military commissions, however on 12 June 2008, the Supreme Court ruled, in Boumediene v. Bush, that Guantanamo Bay captives were entitled to access the US justice system, and that the military commissions as constituted under the Military Commissions Act of 2006 fell short of what was required of a court under the United States constitution BUT, does not address or define torture or interrogation techniques. It only gives the Unlawful Combatants the right to a trial under the US Constitution.
    .
    So Nathan, again. Define or show me where it specifically says water boarding, sleep deprevation or humility IS torture!

  • rustyreturns

    So what sort of convoluted logic is necessary to decide that ‘simulated drowning” doesn’t constitute the threat of imminent death? What sort of logic denies that systematic sleep deprivation is not a procedure calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality?
    .
    That is completely open for interpretation and an opinion from a Court of Law in the United States of America to determine.
    .
    Your interpretation, my interpretation or Nathan’s interpretation does not define what is and what is not torture.
    .
    So in conclusion, let the trials begin. Let the American public decide what is and what is not torture. This is where the real political battle will be fought. But, hope and pray not one hair on one of our military men or women is harmed when the pictures in question are released, or that another 9/11-like attack is successfully under taken by al-Qaeda or other extreme Muslim individuals and thousands of American citizens are again killed.
    .
    Obama will never take this risk, and will never allow any trials to be conducted especially with the likes of Nancy P front and center in the cross-hairs of an inquiry. She is every bit as guilty, if the evidence does show torture. I do not think she will allow it to go that far.

  • jcapan

    Nathan (or anyone else seeking to engage with the pro-torture crowd):
    ~
    You’re attempting the equivalent of reasoning with an irredeemable pedophile or rationally attempting to persuade neanderthals (and I mean no disrespect to my ancestors when I say this).
    ~
    Of course, as a civil-liberties extremist, I understand that to Obama apologists/assorted centrists I’m merely the left-wing version of Rusty, equally betoken to the lunatic fringe, unserious and unworthy of anything other than scorn.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    So in conclusion, let the trials begin. Let the American public decide
    .
    Again your understanding of the US Constitution is unsurprisingly vague. The whole reason that judges get those sought after lifetime appointments is so that it ISN’T up to the American public.

  • rose83

    @ rose, you ask how is Hamas and the American Revolutionaries different?
    .
    apollyon07, actually that’s not at all what I asked. Obviously I don’t see Hamas and American Revolutionaries as equivalent. My point is that it’s difficult to come up with a definition of “terrorist organization” that encompasses Hamas and excludes American revolutionaries. You cite differences in the means used. Well, I think you may have a sanitized view of the Revolutionary War. (BTW, there is abundant evidence that Israeli forces have targeted civilians so by your own definition it’s a terrorist state. If that’s not an oxymoron, which would have some very interesting implications for Hamas… And no, I’m not calling Israel a terrorist state. I don’t pretend to have a solid definition of terrorism. I’m just pointing out the implications of your own statements…). And I doubt you would disagree that Americans have targeted civilian populations on numerous occasions, perhaps most notably in conflicts with Native Americans.
    .
    Just to clarify, I’m not arguing about who is better: America or Al Qaeda, or Hamas. You and I agree on that point. I’m suggesting that ambiguities about how to even define concepts like terrorism contribute to an imprecise discourse on foreign policy that is too frequently characterized by unproductively simplistic us vs. them = good vs. evil thinking.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    The Lee Decision
    .
    http://www.2008electionprocon.org/pdf/US_v_Lee.pdf
    .

    Carl Lee was jointly tried with three fellow San Jacinto County, Texas law enforcement officers on charges of violating and conspiring to violate the civil rights of prisoners in their custody. The sole issue Lee presses in this appeal is whether the trial judge abused his discretion in denying him a severance. Finding no abuse, we affirm.
    .
    I.
    .
    Lee was indicted along with two other deputies, Floyd Baker and James Glover, and the County Sheriff, James Parker, based on a number of incidents in which prisoners were subjected to a “water torture” in order to prompt confessions to various crimes. On the morning [**2] trial was to begin, Floyd Baker’s counsel informed the court and his co-defendants that Baker intended to admit the government’s allegations were true but would argue that he did not have the “state of mind” required for criminal liability. Lee, Glover and Parker each intended to defend on the ground that they did not participate in any torture incidents and were unaware that any such incidents were taking place. Counsel for the other defendants immediately moved for severance. The district court deferred a ruling on these motions pending some clarification of exactly what Baker’s defense and testimony would be.
    .
    At trial, Baker’s defense as developed by his counsel and his testimony rested on two points. The first was that he participated in only a single torture episode, and then only because ordered to do so by his superiors — a “Nuremberg defense.” The second was that while he believed the torture of prisoners immoral, he did not at the time think it was illegal. In the course of Baker’s testimony, he identified Lee as a participant in the torture of several prisoners. Seven other witnesses also connected Lee with various torture incidents. At the close of the evidence, [**3] the district judge severed Baker, and put the case of the remaining defendants to the jury. Lee was convicted on three counts. In this appeal he contends that Baker’s defense was in such conflict with his own that he should have been granted a severance at the beginning of trial.
    [*1126] II.
    .
    The groundwork of our decision today has long since been laid in the decisions of this court. [HN1] Defendants indicted together should, as a rule, be tried together. Federal Rule of Crim. Procedure 14, however, allows a trial judge to order a severance if it appears that a defendant will be prejudiced by a joint trial. The severance decision is reviewed under an abuse of discretion standard, and to prove an abuse the defendant undertakes the considerable burden of proving “that he received an unfair trial and suffered compelling prejudice against which the trial court was unable to afford protection.” United States v. Romanello, 726 F.2d 173, 177 (5th Cir.1984); United States v. Berkowitz, 662 F.2d 1127, 1132 (5th Cir.1981).
    .
    [HN2] When co-defendants raise conflicting defenses, this test is met and severance is required when the defenses are “antagonistic [**4] to the point of being irreconcilable and mutually exclusive.” Romanello, 726 F.2d at 177. The standard for mutual exclusivity is that: “the essence or core of the defenses must be in conflict such that the jury, in order to believe the core of one defense, must necessarily disbelieve the core of the other.” Id. Defendants may disagree on the facts not comprising the core of their defenses without generating the kind of prejudice that mandates severance. Id., United States v. DeVeau, 734 F.2d 1023, 1027 (1984).
    .
    Our initial inquiry is thus whether in order to believe the core of Baker’s defense — that he participated in the torture only because ordered to do so by his superiors and did not know that it was illegal — the jury had necessarily to disbelieve Lee’s defense — that he did not take part in any of the incidents. Lee’s participation or lack thereof in the torture sessions obviously is irrelevant to Baker’s belief in the legality of his own actions. In order for the cores of these defenses to conflict, it is necessary that Baker have contended that Lee was one of the superiors who ordered him to take part in the torture.
    .
    We have [**5] examined the entire record in this case, and must conclude that if Floyd Baker did indicate that Carl Lee ordered him to torture anyone it was only in an extremely impersonal and indirect fashion. It is true that Baker’s counsel made some efforts to develop the fact that Lee had greater seniority than Baker and Baker considered Lee his superior. Baker did not testify at any point, however, that Lee ordered him to torture anyone. According to Baker’s testimony and his counsel’s opening statement, the actual orders came from James Glover.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    If you’re saying that the American military is the same as the terrorists, then…wow.
    .
    It’s amazing how many people can so willfully miss a simple point. Whether an action is to be regarded as right or wrong depends only on the action and not on the identity of the actor.
    .
    The American soldiers differ from terrorists among other reasons, because they have codes of conduct that enforce what we generally regard as civilized behavior even in the face of extreme danger and temptation to engage in barbaric acts. And when they engage in barbaric acts anyway they are subject to justice the same way that other criminals are held to account. But it is the organization of our society and our military that makes us better, not our identity. If we allow our society to condone barbarism, then the very institutions that we so proudly hold as superior crumble, and the difference between a soldier and a terrorist ceases to matter.
    .
    The tendency to overcount enemy atrocities and discount one’s own is a universal human trait. That’s how two sides can end up in deadly conflict, each convinced of the justice of their cause in the first place.
    .
    I’m not willing to assert that we are just like our enemies. We are not. But the ability to consider the possibilty is exactly what is necessary to prevent that possibilty from being realized.

  • rose83

    Whether an action is to be regarded as right or wrong depends only on the action and not on the identity of the actor.
    .
    It’s this point that is being lost in the confusion about “terrorism.” Many very intelligent scholars argue that a state’s military cannot be terrorists, and states cannot themselves be terrorist organizations, although they can clearly support terrorist activities. I’m not sure I agree with that thinking; it’s a difficult question that doesn’t have an easy answer. Although I am sufficiently convinced of its validity to believe that naming the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization is absolutely absurd.
    .
    The problem is that many people are extending the terrorist = bad equation to “not a terrorist” = good. This is also a product of the GWOT: America and its soldiers literally cannot be terrorists, so they are by definition the “good guys.” America’s very existence as a state proves its goodness. No questioning is needed.
    .
    This circular reasoning is toxic and it prevents any kind of serious examination of America’s morality on the international stage.

  • apollyon07

    Rose, I think I misunderstood what you said, I thought you were implying that we’re no better than them. I think we mostly agree on this but just put it in different words.

  • nathan7777

    Rusty:
    .
    A state in such a conflict is legally bound only to observe Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions and may ignore all the other Articles.
    .
    Exactly, and that’s what the Supreme Court has affirmed. Have you read Common Article Three Rusty? It lays out the minimum protections which must be afforded to all those who are not classified as POW’s.
    .
    “It describes minimal protections which must be adhered to by all individuals within a signatory’s territory during an armed conflict not of an international character (regardless of citizenship or lack thereof): Noncombatants, combatants who have laid down their arms, and combatants who are hors de combat (out of the fight) due to wounds, detention, or any other cause shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, including prohibition of outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment. The passing of sentences must also be pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples. Article 3′s protections exist even though no one is classified as a prisoner of war.”
    .
    Do you agree that American citizens are civilized peoples? If so, then all captured combatants (lawful or unlawful) from the War on Terror must be afforded all the judicial guarantees afforded to American citizens. That’s what made the military tribunals a violation of the GCIII.
    .
    Furthermore, if after review by a competent and non-political court, the combatant is deemed to be “unlawful”, that does not mean he is not entitled to protection under international law. There is no gap between GCIII and GCIV. If a combatant is not a POW then he is covered under GCIV. Article 5 of GCIV is what the Bush administration is using to interpret a protected person under GCIV as an “unlawful enemy combatant”, meaning the Bush Administration knew from the beginning that the Geneva Convetions applied. However, Article 5 also states that:
    .
    “In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity, and in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of a fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be.
    .
    How do you define humane treatment?
    .
    I point you back all the other previous quoted sources that expressly forbid torture, including the United Nations Convention Against Torture which you have not addressed, was definitely ratified by the United States, and is certainly part of municipal law under the supremacy clause.
    .
    And no, Rusty, the MCA act of 2006 did not authorize the use of torture. It authorized the use of military tribunals as a replacement for the “competent and non-political” court, as defined in the Geneva Convetions and that is necessary when determining the status of captured combatants. It said absolutely nothing about torture and therefore the EIT are not considered part of “lawful sanctions” as you quoted.
    .
    You still did not respond to whether you thought waterboarding wasn’t torture when the Japanese used it, when the Vietnamese used it, when the Kmher Rouge used it, when the Koreans used it, or if Iran used it.
    .
    If it’s not torture, then technically anyone can waterboard anybody right?
    .
    If it’s not torture, then you need to apologize to all those we prosecuted for war crimes for doing it.
    .
    If it’s not torture, then you need to tell this guy to stop whining about his torture by the Japanese during WWII.
    .
    If it’s not torture, then you need to basically tell the entire world that they’re wrong.
    .
    It’s torture Rusty, but please do continue this argument. I’m enjoying this.

  • kathy

    Very disappointing (but not surprising) how little MSM coverage this is getting. Much better to shriek that Pelosi’s a liar. (where was all this interest in public officials lying the last 8 years).
    .
    I hope Time does a cover story about this, or at least a column from you in the next dead tree.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    JNS has a new article up. It’s all Pelosi all the Time.
    .
    http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1898706,00.html
    .
    Disappointing but not surprising.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek
  • afguy

    I think your eyes will be opened to the fact that some members of our military have definitely be on the same moral ground as terrorists at certain times in our history.
    .
    sgwhite,
    .
    EVERY organization has bad eggs in its basket at times in its history. ALL of them. The question is what do you do about them when they reveal themselves.
    .
    You don’t deal with rotten eggs and rotten apples by ignoring their presence and hoping they will go away by themselves. Leave them in place and sooner or later the rot spreads.
    .
    You don’t remedy rot by simply moving on. You have to remove it and aggressively deal with the decay left behind. And, as I recall, you have to come back periodically and make sure you got it all.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek
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