In the Arena

Democrats v. Poor Parents

It seems that Barack Obama is trying to find a Solomonic path out of the Democrats’ embarrassing, ham-handed attempt to snuff the school voucher program in Washington DC. The President wants to grandfather the program for the 1,716 children who are currently using the vouchers to attend private schools. But if the program is working for those children, and others want the same chance, why not just continue it?

Because the teachers unions have a major stake in continuing the brain-dead, assembly-line  public school system as it  stands in DC and elsewhere.  And the teachers unions have whip-hand  control over the Congressional Democrats.  To be sure, the unions aren’t the only problem with our schools–every last educational study of the past 40 years shows that good parents create good students–but the unions, and their unprofessional work rules, are a major roadblock to the sort of creative experimentation that we’re going to need if our education system is going to rise above the mediocrity that plagues it even in the showcase suburban systems.

I’d much rather go the charter school route than vouchers (although I’d allow the excellent inner-city parochial schools to be part of the charter system). But the teachers are trying to block charters, too, throughout much of the country. And so, barring a wholesale public school reform movement, I’m in favor a private option in public education, just as I’m in favor of a public option for health insurance. In fact, this ain’t rocket science: I’m in favor of whatever works best to get poor kids educated and health care universal. I’m opposed to the special interests who stand in the way, as FDR once said, of bold, persistent experimentation.

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  • apollyon07

    As yes, those lovely teacher’s unions! The main two questions that should be asked when dealing with vouchers, as with virtually any other issue, are: 1- Is it constitutional and 2- Does it work
    .
    Both are yes when it comes to vouchers. A child shouldn’t be punished for happening to live in a run-down area.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Joe says-”But if the program is working for those children”
    .
    From the linked story-”The Department of Education recently issued a three-year analysis of student achievement under the program that found limited gains in reading and no significant progress in math.”
    .
    There is something about this issue that brings out something in Joe. It is as if he can’t make the case without hyperbole and vitriol. And frankly it diminishes his argument.

  • http://www.124monkeys.com Sean DeCoursey forgot his password

    Actually, vouchers don’t really work. They just concentrate better students in one place. Look at the results of the Chicago study on them. It was found that while students who received vouchers did better, there wasn’t an appreciable difference in performance between students who requested and received vouchers and students who requested and didn’t receive vouchers.
    -
    In other words, voucher requests were a good telltale indicator of which students were likely to do well, but they didn’t necessarily impact performance.
    -
    It’s unpopular to say, but for the most part, good parents and good families = good students, no matter the school. The single biggest predictor of academic success is still the number of books in a child’s home, not the school district they’re in.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    The Department of Education recently issued a three-year analysis of student achievement under the program that found limited gains in reading and no significant progress in math.

    .
    Yeah those sorry Democrats and teachers unions who were running the Department of Education for the last three years. Oh wait…
    .
    Funny how those GREAT Republicans love to shill for school vouchers which costs money but are loathe to EVER increase funding for public schools which is the one way to help ensure that we don’t NEED a frikkin voucher program. And shame on the teachers unions who represent people who get sh*tty pay for a thankless job. I mean why should they fight to get tenure for their union members just because they don’t get paid worth a damn? Speaking as the son of two exceptional former high school teachers who were both union members from the bottom of my heart f*ck you Joe Klein. This is a Bush League post with a Bush League title from a journalist who at least for today is also pretty damn Bush League

  • apollyon07

    Yes, the single biggest indicator of student success is family income, but to me this doesn’t mean other methods should be tried. For me, the main issue is whether a student should be forced to attend a certain school based purely on geography. I happened to be born in a middle-class city with good schools. Why deny the same privilege (based on pure chance) to others just because they happen to live in a poorer area? And sg, vouchers, if implemented correctly, shouldn’t cost extra money. You just take whatever money the state would’ve allotted for your education and take it to wherever you please.

  • spob
  • spob

    sgwhite, the word is “loath”, not “loathe”, and DC spends more per capital on schools than any other place, and the results are crap. Money is being tossed down a rathole.
    .
    And schools in Chicago suck for a lot of people, Sean. The problem is generally that the bad apples ruin it for everyone.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Guarantee that the charter/parochial schools accept ESL students and special needs students. Then get back to me on the cost per pupil.
    .
    Different schools serve different students all with different costs attached. This isn’t all that different from the “city schools WASTE so much money, here in my suburb we only spend 60% of that”

  • apollyon07

    This is yet another problem that cannot be solved just by throwing money at it. We need to re-think the entire system and philosophy on this issue.

  • Paul-no not that one

    apollyon07- I read this down below and have to say that’s a pretty interesting point.
    .
    “While Republican party ID is low, it has been standard in modern times that there are more Americans who identity as Democrats (admittedly not at this much disparity), but at the same time more Americans classify themselves as conservatives. Hence, the reason you hear America described frequently as a center-right country.”
    .
    WAPO polled on this last month and you are right. I’m not sure what to draw from this (semantics? Would asking if one self identified as “progressive” change anything? Maybe people really are center-right whatever that means today) but it’s something to think on. Thanks.

  • apollyon07

    You’re welcome! This is a somewhat little known fact that people need to realize. As for your uncertainty, some of it (though not a majority) has to do with the existence of conservative democrats. The kind I’m talking about are those who are conservative on social issues, and relatively liberal on economic ones. (argh, the opposite of me).

  • omorka

    Speaking as a high-school math teacher and a union member (although I haven’t seen my union rep this semester, come to think of it), let me first of all point out that I have not yet met a member of my profession who likes the “brain-dead, assembly-line” nature of traditional schooling, since we’re the ones on the front lines seeing where and how it doesn’t work. The factory-school model *never* worked for many students; the reason conservatives tend to think it did is that up until the ’80s or so it simply wasn’t a big deal for the students for whom it didn’t work to drop out and get factory jobs. Those sorts of low-education jobs just aren’t there anymore, but the students who would have taken them still are.
    .
    The reason that private/charter schools look more successful than public schools is that they get to pick and choose which students they will take. Discipline problems, special needs kids, ESL students, and students whose home lives simply don’t value education are filtered out by default. The public schools, on the other hand, are committed to teaching every kid that shows up, and chasing down the kids that don’t. Of course our results are going to look different!
    .
    And the people with a vested interest in maintaining the system instead of the students aren’t the teachers; they’re the administrators, especially the district admins who have been out of the classroom for five, ten, even twenty years. They’re the ones who are so risk-averse that they smother all attempts at “bold, persistent experimentation” in favor of more skill-and-drill to get the kids to pass the No Child Sinister Buttock, er, sorry, Left Behind federally-mandaded and state-mandated high-stakes tests. We see the kids, day in and day out, and we care about them as human beings; all they see is a set of scores at the end of the year and its effect on their paychecks.

  • formerlyjames

    People just take for granted the concept of universal public education. Priveleged private schools in the UK are still referred to as “public schools”, because they date from pre-universal public education. They were open to those of means. Public schools are a treasure that shouldn’t be ransacked on false premises, driven largely by religious zealots who want funding for their own form of madrasah.
    .
    The key points here made by Klein and others are that parents are the biggest determinant of succuss in school, the voucher, and charter schools in net value are not more successful, the public school system are hurt by funding private enterprises. Even if these schools were more successful, which they aren’t, wouldn’t it make more sense to apply whatever basis there is for the success to the public system, for all student’s benefit?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    PNNTO
    .
    The word “liberal” has been demonized so much that almost nobody wants to self identify as one. I know several of my friends who say they are conservatives but they are also loyal democrats and when you ask them about specific policy questions they end up on the liberal side of most issues. I think its a branding thing more than anything else. Even some people who are pro life or are anti gay marriages are actually liberal on just about all other policy issues but they would never call themselves a liberal. What would make a lot more sense in the liberal vs conservative polling would be to come up with a set of policy questions that were non partisan then tally up their score to see if they actually are a liberal or a conservative. But until that time I expect that even if Democratic self identification doubles the polling numbers for liberals will stay stagnant. Remember, even President Obama won’t come out and say he is a liberal, on the other hand Republicans rush for any microphone or television camera to brag about how conservative they are. Messaging is a mofo.

  • Paul-no not that one

    omorka, excellent post with examples, context, reasons, and consequences. Sadly, Joe lives in Boston 1974 and won’t come out so it will be lost on him.

  • Paul-no not that one

    SG-that’s sort of what I was thinking with semantics. I always say republican rather than conservative because I don’t believe there are any real conservatives left. With any juice in the republican party anyway. We saw that the last 8 years.
    .
    apollyon07, I think SG’s post addresses your comment too about conservative Democrats.

  • formerlyjames

    sg, I am a liberal and damn proud of it.

  • apollyon07

    SG’s post does address it somewhat but I don’t think that it completely accounts for the total, large disparity. Besides, often polls such as these question people on specific issues. On a related note, it has been shown recently that Obama himself is moderately more popular than his policies. Same kind of idea.

  • http://www.124monkeys.com Sean DeCoursey forgot his password

    omorka – good sinister/left translation association.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    *ahem*
    .
    Right at this moment Al Sharpton is standing between Mike Bloomberg and Newt Gingrich talking about a meeting they all just had with President Obama about education. I can’t wait to hear spongebob trash Newt Gingrich for standing on a stage with Al Sharpton and not denouncing him.
    .
    LOL

  • formerlyjames

    apollyon, Obama is presents a pleasant, intelligent, nonoffensive demeanor, and people naturally like him. For some, his policies enhance that image. For others, his policies don’t change his natural appeal for now, but standby.

  • omorka

    P-NNTO: While I tend to think of 1974 as a reasonably good year (after all, it gave me my debut upon the unsuspecting world), anyone whose educational policy is from that era needs to hie themselves to a modern-day classroom and see what’s changed (and what hasn’t!).
    .
    Of course, it’s all GenX’s fault. Back in the ’80s, when the “Nation At Risk” report came out and all the controversy about our educational system being surpassed started, the public dialogue blamed the students – we were stupid, we didn’t care about education, we just weren’t as good and bold and upright as the Boomers before us had been. Now that the Silent have largely retired, and the Boomers are starting to, the educational profession is largely made up of GenXers, and the educational crisis is still our fault – we’re lazy teachers, we’re not working hard enough, we need to be held accountable by outside testing because looking into the eyes of a kid and being told “I don’t get it” no matter what we do isn’t punishment enough. I don’t think the paradigm will shift the blame to where I think it belongs (the administrators who don’t interact with kids) until another generation has cycled through and the GenXers, who are safe to blame, are in those district offices.

  • pafro

    I’ve heard of private schools taking the public subsidy then kicking gay kids out. How would you deal with that?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    apollyon
    .
    I know that you still read some right wing news and watch some right wing media. Here is something you should know. Just about every President who is popular is more popular than most of their policies. You can go back through history and its the same thing. This is a cannard used by right wing media mostly to lend skepticism to President Obama’s agenda but its not unique that this is the case. What is unique about most of President Obama’s agenda is that while his policies may lag his own personal approval rating most of them still have almost 60% approval. Right now you won’t find many actual policies of the Republican party that approach even 50%. And remember I said ACTUAL policies, not some vague, general, party platform.

  • formerlyjames

    omorka, if you haven’t seen it you need to check out a mock documentary called “Chalk”. You will have a good laugh, I think.

  • pippapippa

    “But if the program is working for those children, and others want the same chance, why not just continue it?”

    But Joe, does it work? You act like that’s proven. Is that not important? Isn’t that something a journalist should report? Not just what the results are, but what results are expected given the expenditure?

    I’m all for results too– whatever works. But that does mean we have to figure out if it works. If an experiment isn’t working, then what is the problem with ending it and trying something else? Or is it just easier to blame the union?

  • Paul-no not that one

    omorka, Joe feels he made his bones covering the Boston busing crisis. That’s what I was referencing. He’s had it in for public schools ever since.
    .
    As for the disparity in self identification I’m interested in an academic sense but as the affiliation on a ballot reads Democrat rather than liberal I’m not concerned in a real world way.

  • pippapippa

    Go, Omorka!

    I’m always suspicious of the “usual suspect” mode of blaming, which Joe keeps falling into. Unions, esp. teachers’ unions, are generally the “usual suspects” for any sort-of-liberal who wants to act like he’s a tough critic of liberalism, and Gen-X is a convenient suspect for babyboomers (which I am, and believe you me, I blame Gen-X for a lot, but then, they blame me too :) . The truth is, of course, as you say, no one knows more about the reality of daily life in the classroom than teachers, and one problem is that the legislatures and the pundits don’t even ask, often, what they think might work.

    And none of them want to address the real issue, which is poverty. Teachers and schools are expected somehow to compensate for the stress and deprivation that comes from living poor in an affluent nation. And as long as poverty is ignored as a cause of poor performance by students and their schools, there can be no real solution. Of course, solving poverty is a much harder task than just blaming teachers and unions. Joe doesn’t want to take that task on, even rhetorically.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Tom Ridge isn’t running.

  • Paul-no not that one

    SG-good news for Democrats in Penn, correct?

  • Cliff

    I’m in favor of whatever works best to get poor kids educated and health care universal.
    .
    All right then, how do we know that vouchers and charter schools work best?
    .
    pippapippa brought it up before, but can you point to conclusive evidence that this is the way to go, to back up your bold words?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    PNNTO
    .
    Yep and probably the best news for Sestak because Ridge may have given him a run for his money and or people might have PERCEIVED that scenario and voted for Specter in the primary. Now its kind of like the playing field is completely level for him and anybody else who challenges Specter.

  • Ivy_B

    I think Joe is being silly in this post and omorka has said all that needs to be said, so I’ll join in with sgw and pnnto.
    .
    I think Ridge not running is good news for the Dems, but I’m not positive he would have won the Repub primary. The ultra conservative right voters (as opposed to the moderate party leaders) don’t like Ridge much.
    .
    Sestak is going to have to make a BIG push for recognition in western PA around Pittsburgh if he plans to beat Specter.

  • flacidcasual

    Ok, if I were a policy wonk looking at this debate, I’d probably want the following questions answered:
    .
    1) Is there enough money in the public school system to pay for every “poor” kid to get a voucher?
    2) How do we decide who’s poor and should qualify? Geography, means testing, drawing lots?
    3) How can this model be applied to rural communities, where choice is equally if not more limited?
    4) What impact does this policy have on those who don’t qualify for vouchers and who cannot afford to attend private schools on their own means?

  • Paul-no not that one

    SG and Ivy, I suspect money won’t be an issue for Sestak if he runs, also if the unions end up supporting his challenge to Arlen that’s a fair amount of advertising help for name recognition. Still a long way out.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    PNNTO
    .
    Not only that but Sestak is putting on a full court blitz right now on all the cable news shows so in a weird way Specter crossing the aisle probably helped Sestak to raise his profile in PA right now higher than it has ever been.

  • Paul-no not that one

    That’s a good point SG. I have to be honest I knew just a little about Sestak 2 weeks ago.I know a bit more now and his appeal to me is more about who he isn’t at this stage.
    .
    PS: thanks for weighing in down here, AS posts/threads aren’t for me.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    What I usually do is turn AS’s posts into open threads right away and then people pretty much forget whatever in the hell it was she posted anyway. But this time I was late and people were actually commenting about abstinence only so I just left a couple of comments and bounced. BTW if anybody likes baseball, Manny Ramirez is suspended for 50 games for violating MLB drug policy. He is getting killed on ESPN

  • deathbypapers

    omorka, as a former high school teacher (i loved teaching and the students but couldn’t stand the system) i think we do need to do something about the system. first let me say that there are a lot of problems with public education and unions are only one of them, but since that’s what we’re talking about here’s my little rant.
    I worked my tail off in college, working for a BA in history and a BScience in Secondary Ed. then i started teaching and worked my tail off again, working 60+ hour weeks preparing lesson plans etc, and I was happy about it. the problem was, some of the teachers that i worked with were incredibly incompetent, and they were getting paid more than me. Why? They had been there longer and union rules dictated that there were only two things that determined your salary: 1. Education level (which I’m fine with, pay MA and PhD more) and 2. time teaching (which should maybe account for something, but should not be the significant determinant of how much you get paid). we need to find some way to reward the good teachers, the ones that work hard and are effective. things seem to be going that way, i hope after i’m done with my PhD in 4 years I can return to the classroom to a new system… but unions are going to make that awfully hard to change, so yeah, unions can be a problem.

  • viciousmaniac

    Charter schools by nature challenge the odious drek that is our modern school system. So even if the results are tepid, or painted as such (“LIMITED GAINS!! Oh noes.”), they still technically win. I wish Obama the best of luck.
    .
    In the past I’ve stumbled onto study after study that shows public school teachers are one of the most likely, aside from high-income families, to send their kids to private school. What an amazing coincidence.
    .
    P.S. F the teacher’s cabal, er excuse me, “union”.

  • deathbypapers

    p.s. after finishing my seminar paper i have decided to dismiss the whole grammar/spelling thing, my apologies

  • Ivy_B

    On another point, am eager to hear all the Repubs and Blue Dogs who have been screaming about the deficit leap in to defend the programs Obama wants to cut. Heard that Bush proposed some of the same, but Congress defeated.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    viciousmaniac
    .
    I would LOVE to see those studys because most of the teachers I know including my parents could never afford to send their kids to private school.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    studies even

  • plukasiak

    In the past I’ve stumbled onto study after study that shows public school teachers are one of the most likely, aside from high-income families, to send their kids to private school.
    _
    ya gotta love these jokers who can’t provide one link to a study confirming what they keep stumbling upon.
    ********
    As for Joe’s point — sure there are bad teachers who still have jobs. There are also absolutely horrible journalists who still have jobs. Maybe kids would be better prepared if the media didn’t have so many people distorting reality in their “news” coverage everyday — and given the complete incompetence demonstrated by Klein with this post, he should be the first “journalist” to go to improve that profession.

  • omorka

    deathbypapers: Anyone who goes into the educational professions looking for a paycheck is Doing It Wrong. Why does it matter what the idiot down the hall is making? Aren’t there incompetents who get promoted into a higher pay grade just due to seniority in any career? Incompetent teachers bug me because they’re incompetent, not because they make more than me, and honestly, most of those work themselves out of the system eventually – incompetent people in a truly difficult job are rarely happy. I’m more irritated at the administrators who didn’t work them out of the system at the beginning of their careers, like they’re supposed to.
    .
    The system is badly broken, to be sure. To the extent that they add extra bureaucracy to the system, the unions are part of the problem. But the whole factory model of education is a much bigger issue, and far more productive (IMHO) to address.
    .
    And let me point out that the only reason I’m posting instead of lurking today is that all my kids are out in standardized testing. (IB rather than NCLB testing, thank goodness!)

  • deathbypapers

    pluk, i don’t know if your analogy really works though because as far as i know the journalists union (if there is such a thing) is nowhere near as powerful both in the realm of politics and the actual field. journalists get fired/laid off rather regularly without the need to go through 5 or more different steps like some teachers union. While LA is a particularly egregious example see: LA Times Expose (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-050309-me-badteachers-f,0,7972474.flash and http://www.latimes.com/news/la-me-teachers6-2009may06,0,6604006.story?track=rss)

  • deathbypapers

    omorka, i think your first comment is representative of an ideology that has been dominant in education and other “women’s” professions for far too long (see nurses). we want the best and brightest in these professions, but we don’t want to pay them. they should be “grateful” that they are teaching or caring for people, and the intrinsic rewards should compensate for the lack of material awards. and yes, intrinsic rewards are a HUGE part of education, and I value them. I don’t need to earn a lot of money teaching, but i would much rather that money the money that is going to the joker down the hall go towards getting me better textbooks, luring a better teacher or funding a field trip. that’s what P*sses me off.

  • deathbypapers

    sorry for the triple posting, I just reread that last post and the first part sounds like i’m attacking omorka, I’m not. I’m just angry at the sh*t we get force fed about certain positions. doctors (male job) help people and get paid a lot, gender inequity is still with us.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “Manny Ramirez is suspended for 50 games for violating MLB drug policy. He is getting killed on ESPN”
    .
    SG, ESPN is covering it? Manny must have been traded back to the Red Sox or the Yankees.

  • viciousmaniac

    SG

    This is the core study I was referring to, the work by Denis P. Doyle, Thomas B. Fordham Institute at http://www.edexcellence.net/doc/Fwd-1.1.pdf. This study had popped up in a lot of newspapers in 04.
    .
    Then every now and again you do, in fact, stumble upon a news article such as this http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n18_v47/ai_17498665/:
    An April 1995 survey by the University of Wisconsin/Madison’s Applied Population Laboratory, re-commissioned as part of this writer’s research, documents the extent to which Milwaukee Public School teachers send their own children anywhere but MPS schools. Using data from the Public Use Micro-Sample of the 1990 U.S. Census, the survey found that 31.4 per cent of all MPS teachers — who are required by condition of employment to live within city limits — enroll their own children in private schools. That’s nearly three times the national average.

    The tendency grows more pronounced for public-school teachers who reside in Milwaukee’s Central City neighborhoods, home to some of the public system’s worst schools. In the two ‘Central City’ census areas, the percentage of public-school teachers enrolling their children in private schools swells to 42.1 and 44.5 per cent — a resounding ‘no confidence’ vote in urban public education by the people who know it best.
    .

  • viciousmaniac

    Also, I’d personally like to know how many of those Democratic senators attacking charters in D.C. and fighting with Obama over state caps send their kids to public school. My guess is that it should be illuminating.

  • shepherdwong

    …the unions, and their unprofessional work rules, are a major roadblock to the sort of creative experimentation that we’re going to need if our education system is going to rise above the mediocrity that plagues it even in the showcase suburban systems.
    .
    Creative experimentation that will lead to what, exactly? If the “showcase suburban systems” that have the money and who’s kids have well-developed social skills and support networks are mediocre, what silver bullet derived from vouchers or charter schools is going to fix all of our public schools? Pure, “centrist,” anti-union pap.
    .
    Has it ever occurred to you and your serious and thoughtful friends that the problem may be mostly something as simple as the fact that you will never create enough excellent teachers to fill the four million or so teaching jobs in this country? For that matter, read this book and tell me why the real problem isn’t that you will never have enough great principals to run every school.

  • Ivy_B

    OT: Sorry, but only other posts at the moment are Amy’s relig. ones.
    .
    PNNTO and sgw: Pennsylvania Senate 2010: Baseline poll: Research 2000 for Daily Kos. http://tinyurl.com/dmfb9p

  • tmdennis

    Viciousmaniac,

    The article that you linked to was commissioned by the Fordham Institute whose leader, Chester Finn, is an advocate for charter schools. It is not the best article and I have questions about is validaty because it was not published in a peer reviewed research journal

  • Ivy_B

    shepardwong points out an often overlooked aspect – there are far too many positions to be filled (at low pay) for the number of people interested in filling them. In many states a lot of money is wasted in the administration of far too many school districts. In PA Gov. Rendell suggested consolidating the 500 school districts in PA to 100 to the immediate howls and screams of the legislature on both sides of the aisle. Surely money could be saved that could be used to provide better education by reducing districts.

  • viciousmaniac

    The article that you linked to was commissioned by the Fordham Institute whose leader, Chester Finn, is an advocate for charter schools. It is not the best article and I have questions about is validaty because it was not published in a peer reviewed research journal
    .
    Right, of course. Advocate of charter schools = Lex Luthor-ian evil genius = case closed, throw out the study. Never mind the census data.
    .
    It’s sad that many of you have a problem with charter schools simply for the fact that they strike a partisan nerve with you. Give it a rest.

  • tmdennis

    I have a problem with the validity of the research. To me, understanding the bias in any reporting is important when developing an opinion. You show me a research paper that has been published in a peer reviewed research journal then I’ll read it and digest it. Facts matter when developing policy, and when dealing with a complex issue such as education you need to make sure the research you base your policy on holds up to justifying to dismantle one of our oldest social institutions.

  • http://aroundthesphere.wordpress.com/2009/05/06/the-right-will-vouch-for-it/ The Right Will Vouch For It « Around The Sphere

    [...] Joe Klein in [...]

  • arinkay

    Hey Vicious,
    .
    I get it. Teacher = member of cabal = case closed, throw them all out.
    .
    Right now my union is shielding me from a micromanaging BOE that wants to force me into a labor-law-violating schedule. Such bad, bad people, that union.
    .
    If I have children, I would love to homeschool, quite frankly. Anything that can be labeled a “system” is dehumanizing by nature, and the number of hoops I have to jump through daily is infuriating. I stay in the system in hopes of helping my students break out of it.
    .
    Unions are a reaction to bigwigs treating people like sh!t.

  • jcapan

    PNNTO,
    ~
    You mean there’s an east-coast bias in sports coverage!? Color me shocked. Sadly, it stretches all the way to Asia. Between Matsui and Boston’s trio of J-hurlers, they’re on all the time here (live at 8am!) As an O’s fan, it means I can see them sometimes (getting pistolwhipped usually).

  • Paul-no not that one

    Ivy thanks for the numbers.
    .
    That both Sestak and Torsell lead likely republican nominee Toomey even with their current low name recognition supports the idea that the Penn Democrats don’t need to settle.

  • Paul-no not that one

    jcapan, the east coast bias didn’t extend to Florida. The (We are NOT the Devil) Rays were ignored by ESPN and Fox for almost all of last year. Red Sox, Yankees, Cubs, and the Cardinals. Over and over.
    .
    Your O’s delivered the (shortened) whipping on my Twins last night. Which was Saturday afternoon your time if I have that figured out correctly.
    .
    I’m such an Ugly American!

  • viciousmaniac

    I agree about unions are a reaction to bigwigs treating them like sh!t. I support unions. When I was in QA in videogames, I wanted to start a union. The testers are paid extremely low for highly stressful, complicated work and have no job security. At Activision in Santa Monica, they keep them in a basement for $7 an hour and often after a project is complete they fire them all on a whim. Despite moving beyond QA, I still plan on starting a union for QA testers someday (if any have tips on starting a union, I’d love to hear it). I also support legalization of drugs, uni health care, replace our ghastly autos with mass transit, nationalization for banks (long before it was cool to do so post-bailout), all the dirty hippy stuff.
    .
    However, I do despise the teacher’s cabal, and I think that’s fair as they helped bring our country’s educational system to ruin, and essentially poison entire generations and subsets of minorities against it. In this case, the teacher’s cabal ARE amongst the bigwigs, and are part of the problem
    .
    True story: during the Governator’s ill-fated special election mumbo-jumbo in California, a teacher I knew and dated briefly called me to demand I vote against his educational props. I told her that it’d be a hard sell, that I think the California teacher’s cabals are the “very model of unaccountability”, as Johnathan Alter once quite accurately put it, and that I was upset over the annual poor performance of minorities in our public schools. Her response? “They [minorities] just don’t want to learn”. She was quite adamant in that statement and defended it quite vigorously from an outraged me (my favorite: “Latinos hate education, they just want to, like, work with their dads building stuff”. This despite me myself being Latino).
    .
    I don’t blame her for her attitude, I guess, as her teaching was just a self-confessed day job. Her real goal was to become a “white female rapper”. As, you know, a parody of rap culture. The only reason why I won’t tell you her “street name” is that it’s actually her real name, which I guess was part of the joke.
    .
    It’s quite hard to shake an impression such as that, especially when you’ve seen the system in action yourself and believe your own teachers weren’t much better.
    .
    And yes, F the teacher’s cabal.

  • viciousmaniac

    And to be fair, I hate our country’s educational system from top to bottom, not just the teacher’s cabal. It’s rotting apart all over.
    .
    I hate our colleges that rob students and families with outrageous student loans, that short shrift their own educational facilities so the Florida Gators or whatever can get a fleet of spas installed in their locker rooms.
    .
    I hate d!ckhead tenured professors, like the jerk at my fiance’s grad school whom, I’m told by her, refuses to grade papers timely and fails students on capricious whims. If I ran a business like that, I’d be sued.
    .
    I hate the fact that Ivy League has had a monopoly on our Supreme Court for years now and the results show (“Of course I’ll rule in favor of Bush and Citibank. After all, I just got back from a Hamptons luncheon with his father and Sandy Weil”).
    .
    Etcetera.

  • jcapan

    Yeah, Paul, I was following the O’s-Twin’s game online yesterday (merely Thursday), parallel to the NBA playoffs. Was praying they’d call it before our pen had a chance to blow it. The top of our lineup is wicked–too bad our pitching is tripe.
    ~
    The bias re: college sports is far more enraging. Having gone to a Big East school and a MWC school, I’ve seen the good and bad of that skewed coverage.

  • arinkay

    I hear what you’re saying, vicious.
    .
    I would blame the teacher you knew for her attitude, though, not teachers in general. And I call out my colleagues if I hear anything similar. And I too, had more than too many sucky teachers myself (at all levels).
    .
    But again, while my “cabal” is a pain in my ass and everyone else’s sometimes, the overwhelming point of our actions are to create an environment where we can do our best and our students can do theirs. Hell, lately it’s been work just to create an environment where I can do my job. Calling names doesn’t help much.
    .
    Philosophically, I’d rather not be unionized, but given my life’s experience working for young people I wouldn’t go without. I was harassed and abused out of my last job because there was no solidarity. But that was a church. They suck worse than schools.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Whatever the issues with the teacher unions one isn’t that they get too much money for the educators.
    .
    http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Hourly_Rate

  • http://www.peterhsu.org Peter

    Paul-no not that one, sgwhiteinfla, et. al.: The study cited in the article from Mr. Klein’s post is about a year old. Back in the beginning of April, the Education Department released more up-to-date results that showed singificant gains by students participating in the program:

    A U.S. Education Department study released yesterday found that District students who were given vouchers to attend private schools outperformed public school peers on reading tests, findings likely to reignite debate over the fate of the controversial program.
    .
    Overall, the study found that students who used the vouchers received reading scores that placed them nearly four months ahead of peers who remained in public school. However, as a group, students who had been in the lowest-performing public schools did not show those gains.

    This, of course, indicates that it is a mixed bag — some students appear to benefit heavily while others less so. But four months is more than a mild gain — that’s always half a school year.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Thanks for the more current numbers Peter.

  • formerlyjames

    Peter, as others have pointed out, even participation in a voucher program in pursuit of better performance is a predictor of better performance in itself. It means nothing. And you might want to check out a valid education theory called the pygmalion effect. Students perform as they are expected and as they perceive they are respected. Again, nothing whatever to do with vouchers or charter schools. I just jumped in here, so if I am misinterpreting what your point is please correct me.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Overall, the study found that students who used the vouchers received reading scores that placed them nearly four months ahead of peers who remained in public school. However, as a group, students who had been in the lowest-performing public schools did not show those gains. There was no difference in math performance between the groups.

    .
    Peter, thanks for the updated numbers but I don’t see how these findings are any different from the findings Joe linked to. No change in math, moderate advantage in reading. Thats not impressive if you ask me.

  • shepherdwong

    “This, of course, indicates that it is a mixed bag — some students appear to benefit heavily while others less so. But four months is more than a mild gain — that’s always half a school year.”
    .
    Confounding variables alone make such a comparison scientifically useless. Grasping at straws.
    .
    If you really want to fix the school system, then fix the goddamn school system.

  • http://www.peterhsu.org Peter

    formerlyjames: I think you are correct in noting that pursuit of an option like charters schools is a predictor of success in and off itself. Students with engaged parents are likely to be the ones pursuing the program, and they are the ones most susceptible to improvement. Vouchers provide diminishing returns: extremely high returns from those students with engaged families but were just stuck in a horrible system, but significantly less positive returns for those without the strong support network at home.
    .
    sgwhiteinfla: Whether or not you call it impressive, I suppose, is a matter of opinion. Your average school year is nine months long, so being four months ahead means that you’re almost half a grade ahead of your peers. In my middle school we had a girl, a rare genius, who managed to skip a grade – it was an incredible accomplishment. The average student in the voucher program is half-way to that incredible accomplishment in reading. I call that impressive.

  • http://www.peterhsu.org Peter

    …I just realized that there’s some pretty poor grammar and sentence mechanics in my post above… perhaps I could use a little more time in school.

  • Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Just checking in to see if JK had responded to any of the substantive objections to his lazy, uninformed, cocktail-party contrarianism.
    *
    I see he has not.
    *
    Needless to say, I am shocked.

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