Pizza Republicano

At least Snowe seems to get it, and to some degree Jeb Bush. But the protesters and Ms. Santelli still don’t seem to get what’s happening to the Republicans, or why. It’s kind of sad really.

“Move too much to the center and you lose the base.”
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Yeah? To whom? If the anti-rational crowd just decides not to show up we’d all be that much better off. The GOP ‘s best hope for resurgence lies in seeking the votes of the non-Base and, in the process, replacing the multitude of party demagogues who know only Base-centered campaign and message tactics.

Something to notice here JNS. When Republican standard bearers lose their luster the GOP base savages them even if they had previously been ardent supporters. Nobody thought that John McCain was a Democrat-lite until he got his ass handed to him last year. The GOP base adored George Bush until his stumbles appeared to help Democrats take control of Congress in 2006. And thats why while their base is shrinking, its also getting louder because it is now basically just the fringe left. Thats how you get someone saying that you learn more from Rush Limbaugh than going to college and everyone applauds. Thats how you get someone on a teabagging party video talk about burning books to almost a standing ovation.
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Besides that the four men in that organization aren’t moderate on just about any issue. They are all pro life which is fine but not moderate. They are all basically neocons when it comes to foreign policy. They have all embraced the Socialism cannard. Jeb Bush might have done more to hurt the party than any other Republican in recent history with his handling of the Terry Schiavo situation down here in Florida. None of them promote the possibility of gay marriage. And the base even hates Mitt Romney. So exactly how can three wingnuts attract moderates to their party?

It’s pretty ironic the degree to which I find center-uber-alles commentators like David Broder and Joe Klein offensive insofar they don’t seem to have any actual positions except, “if everybody hates it, it must be good” yet I see the emergence of a center right political organization as a good thing.
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I’ll have to think about why these two apparently conflicting views coexist and get back to you.

Despite recent rumblings I don’t see that the GOP still cares to really acknowledge any of it’s mistakes or has any interest in trying to expand it’s appeal as a party. Because that of course would mean unbending enough to loosen up on some of their social beliefs that have become so near and dear to them. In other words unless the Democrats stumble the GOP is still going to be out in the proverbial wilderness with its ever shrinking list of supporters. And just waiting around for your opposition to fail is no way to carve out a lasting agenda.

I don’t get why they talk about expanding the party and being more welcoming to all, but as others have noted they are utterly unwilling to change any of their positions that have made moderates drop out.
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We welcome you to come join us and we’ll say we are a big tent party, but completely disregard your views. Fool me once…

“Quite honestly, people learn more from listening to Rush Limbaugh’s show than in high school or college,” Stephen Santelli, 28, told the crowd to applause in asking a question about education standards.

When people say something like that, the question should be, “Where did you go to school?”

Note to wingnuts: Do not email Glenzilla with factually challenged propagandist bullsh*t or he will kick your ass six ways from Sunday.
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http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/04/mr-greenwald-gets-a-letterand-writes-one/

30 Journals to cover about a 70 person event. Interesting.

Thanks, JNS!
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I noted that Snowe made this comment:
“Ideological purity is not the ticket back to the promised land of governing majorities.”
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And I think, in reality, Snowe and the rest of them didn’t really get it all. While she realizes a narrowing of ideology is going to reduce their chances, she doesn’t seem to realize the other idea implicit in her statement.
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I wanted to wait until you blogged before commenting on it.
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The problem is this:
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If the aim is to be simply the “governing majority”, isn’t that tacitly just power for power’s sake? It seems to me that they really havn’t learned since the GOP was talking up becoming the “traditional party of government” shortly after 2004.
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I also realize that Dems, to a lesser degree* are no better, but I think that the Obama Administration is more interested in doing what’s right for the country rather than actively looking at how to pad their chances for re-election.
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*Reagan and Gingrich, as well as others, actively espoused propagandizing the American people, which, to this day, I still think is about as Un-American as you can get. It has been entirely overlooked, though, in the desperate search for “image”.

JNS — How can you, with any shred of honesty, call the National Council for a New America “center-leaning” when it is nothing more than a front organization for the Republican National Committee, which has been taken over by the wacko right-wing rump remainder of the Republican Party?
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I mean, look at who they tout as their “National Panel of Experts:”
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Governor Haley Barbour (corrupt former RNC chair)
Governor Jeb Bush (Bush — need I say more?)
Governor Bobby Jindal (famous exorcist)
Senator John McCain (famous loser)
Governor Mitt Romney (famous vulture capitalist)
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As the Germans say, “Selber Scheiß, andere Ärsche.”

Except in this case, it’s even “Selbere Ärsche.”

Loved Glenns reply!
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BTW, I wonder where I’d be today if I had Prof. Limbaugh for my ‘Modeling the Environment’ class some years ago.
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Unemployed, perhaps?

I honestly don’t think the GOP can last.
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It’s like the Seattle Supersonics. Limbaugh’s already bought the team and he has the name. Unlike Bennett, he won’t deal that back to whoever supplants the party in the right-of-center vacuum* that now exists.
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Not with the brand recognition that “GOP” has right now.
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*These are those independents. I think that right now, they are gravitating toward Obama for lack of any other reasonable choice.

53_3 – True, expanding ideology for the sake of power is terrible. I hadn’t considered her statement like that. However, expanding their views rather than the current contraction of ideology will help them remain a viable party. And as much as I loathe to admit it, we do need a viable second party to challenge views and keep things in check.
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Oh and Prof. Limbaugh? What does he teach – Blowhard 101?

Tom in The Swamp:
I call them center-leaning, not because that’s what they are ideologically, but because they are pragmatic enough to be trying to appeal to the center by leaving off hot button social issues, striking a moderate (for them) tone and stating outright that they want to appeal to independent voters. Oh, and they aren’t a front for the RNC — they’re in competition with them, notice Steele isn’t a member. And the RNC has its own similar group.
JNS

I’ve started to think of the Blue Dog Democrats as the new opposition party.

53_3: Be careful, both political parties have been declared dead many times. As Obama himself noted in his press conference last week: It’s never smart to write someone off, he himself was down in the polls 30 points ahead of the Iowa caucuses.
JNS

JNS – Yeah but leaving out Steele isn’t saying much, he’s just basically a puppet for these guys. A puppet that occasionally spouts off a few odd statements that the puppet masters want to soon forget.

So defining them as center-leaning is sort of like defining Lindsey Graham as a moderate?
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This may not be a center right country but is certainly is a center right media.

There are two differing meanings of the word ‘moderate’ and much confusion between the two. Everyone has two different properties: A What they beleive and B: How strenously they dislike people who don’t share that beleif. We tend to talk past each other when we fail to differentiate between these two.

JNS
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Is implying that there should be a constitutional amendment against gay marriage “avoiding hot button issues?”
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http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2009/05/04/am.intv.cantor.cnn
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Starts at about 2:47

PNNTO- there is academic research to suggest otherwise (on your media comment)
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JNS makes a good point when she cautions against declaring a political party dead. I’m sure some people said this about the Democrats after 1984 (1/50 states). How did they come back into viability? Moving more towards the center with Bill Clinton’s 3rd way politics. Of course he also got elected due to Bush Sr.’s mistakes and Ross Perot, but I’m reminded of the quote: “Luck is when preparation meets opportunity”. I’m seeing a big lesson for the Republican party here.

I call them center-leaning, not because that’s what they are ideologically, but because they are pragmatic enough to be trying to appeal to the center by leaving off hot button social issues, striking a moderate (for them) tone and stating outright that they want to appeal to independent voters.
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JNS, this is what irritates me so much. As I noted above, trying to appeal to the center and striking a moderate tone, but they don’t really mean it. Jeb Bush doesn’t think HE did anything wrong with the Terry Shiavo case does he? Cantor is certainly right down the line with the current Repub policies. However, this group is being reported and hyped as a big deal.

JNS:
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Very true. I can’t really dispute this, but I was around when the Dems were on their heels in the ’80s.
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I think the dynamics are different here. Rush Limbaugh has already staked a claim to the GOP crown, and there are a ton of the old guard from that period of time (the ’80s) that have rallied around him. Micheal Steele is being stripped of financial responsibilities (or, at least, they’re trying to), and the GOP has skewed so far right that they are not only completely abandoning the center, leaving an enormous vacuum, but are actively rejecting it.
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The Dems in the ’80s didn’t do this. They pretty much were directionless, and maybe more than a little flexible in the backbone dept, but overall, they didn’t purge themselves like the GOP is now.
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Someone is going to keep the brand name, and it’s clear that moderates don’t have the power to take it from Rush.
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That’s basically the reason for the claim I made.
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If the moderates took it to the RNC right now, they’d lose, and I think that the only options available are these:
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Become a Dem
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Become an Independent
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Form a new party to take advantage of the poltical vacuum right of center.
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I think the last is the most viable choice.

Jay what is your definition of a centrist?

apollyon07 please feel free to link to this academic research. Something other Media Research Center please.
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Also, what was the make up of the House in 1984? How about state Governors? And state legislatures?

How the wingnuts use Jake Tapper to promote their propaganda
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http://thinkprogress.org/2009/05/04/right-wing-radio-tapper/

Right now with the economy the way it is. People can not afford to be republican. They see government as their last hope to save them from what they did to themselves by supporting those working against their own interest.
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However, as soon as the crisis has passed and more have jobs than do not, you will see again the rises of our self destructive side. Americans have such short memories and prosperity often brings out our selfishness. All of a sudden we are very independent and “I got mine by working hard with no help” you get yours and don’t expect me to help or pay for it. And So the republicans don’t really need any new ideas. They just need to wait out the current crisis.

JNS-
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When has either party been declared dead in the past?
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I’m with 53_3. I don’t see a way out of the death spiral. Every single policy position they’ve espoused, except transferring income from the bottom 9 deciles to the top decile, has proven to be nothing more than lies and propaganda.
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The demographics are killing them, and it’s going to get worse with every passing year.As the base is distilled into purer and purer know-nothing fantasists, the spiral will continue. And since the people who make money at this–the radio talk people, the “preachers,” and the other “grass roots” leaders–benefit from labeling the corporate republican leadership as RINOs, they will continue this process of distillation, until the GOP is in the mid teens in party id.
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There are only two lifelines. The first is the media, who can’t write their he said/she said fake balance stories without an opposition party. And the second is all the state laws erected to prevent third parties from forming.
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The obvious third party is one led by someone like Bloomberg, who declares a party of apolitical independents, inviting Lieberman and Specter in. This would take place after the 2010 debacle in the senate; if they keep this up, the Republicans could lose six more seats.

six more SENATE seats.

PNNTO:
http://www.house.gov/Welcome.shtml
http://www.senate.gov/index.htm
http://www.opencongress.org/
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The horses at the sources!

PNNTO thanks for assuming that I’d link to a biased organization (I guess I deserved that for daring to disagree with you?), but I think I’ll go with a university (ie, ACADEMIC RESEARCH) on this one: http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Media-Bias-Is-Real-Finds-UCLA-6664.aspx
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Disclaimer: A lot of this contradicts conventional wisdom, please keep an open mind.
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I’ve seen several others, if you want more just ask. And if you don’t think this image http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/images/elections/maps/1984.jpg was at least somewhat demoralizing to the Democrats after what happened in 1980 then I think you’re being unreasonable. Yes the Democrats command the Congress more than Republicans did in 1984 but McCain also won a lot more than 13 electoral votes.

Jayack, thanks for mentioning state laws in regards to third parties. I agree the fact that the system is set up to prevent 3rd parties a reasonable chance from gaining viability is destructive and wrong. Historically third parties have risen up to replace/ merge with one of the two major ones but this seems like it would be impossible in modern times, unfortunately.

gysgt
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That would be true if the Republicans’ only failings were seen to be confined to the economy. But with a destructive neocon foreign policy, and the fact that they are on the wrong side of most domestic policy questions like universal healthcare the GOP won’t gain support just because the economy bounces back. Remember, the economy didn’t crater in 2006 when the Dems first retook Congress and President Obama was polling well long before the stock market crashed. The Republicans don’t think they are doing anything wrong policy wise so after people get back on their feet the GOP still won’t have any answers for them on all of the other major issues facing our country. Most parties when they stage a come back have a person or group of people who lead that comeback with a new voice and new ideas. Close your eyes and ask the question, who in the GOP fits that description?

Should’ve been a comma after agree.

JNS — I also think that the media’s reluctance to accurately portray the state of the GOP is only prolonging the inevitable. You can continue to warn against counting the GOP out, but in reality the public can see they have been taken over by delusional characters and sensible members have run not walked away from the elephant’s tent. Perhaps, if you called it like it is the next opposing national party could begin to form.
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And say what you want about Democrats when they were down, they never had demographics (something so far beyond the control of any party) against them. The GOP has known for quite awhile that we are headed toward a majority minority in this country, yet they insist on being hateful to every minority group.

The problem there apollyon07, is that Groseclose is on the right. The Principal Investigator himself is biased. Here are two dissenting opinions, and there are many more.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2005/12/22/13363/489
http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2005/12/the_problems_wi.html
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One of the problems is that defining certain issues as “liberal” (the global warming issue is a great example) makes it appear that there is a legitimate “liberal” bias where none actually exists.

About that UCLA study
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http://mediamatters.org/research/200512220003
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Yeah, not so much.

apollyon07:
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I think what will happen here is that sooner or later, this will come to the floor of the RNC. The loosers, which will certainly be the moderates, will have to either sit and take it, riding the ship of unelectability (see sgwhites’ and Ivy_B’s posts on Penn politics) down to Davey Jone’s locker, or take their money and move out.
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At which point, I think, the money will follow the moderates, and serve as a core around which other right leaning independents will aggregate – with their money.
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And at that point, the GOP will be supplanted makeing the GOP the “third party”.

C’mon, JNS, the “centrist” pretense is laughable.

The web site they were promoting, WeThePeoplePlan.org, only exists as a page on right-wing-wacko Eric Cantor’s republicanwhip.house.gov web site. The National Center for a New America is a purely inside-the-beltway phony front, astroturf at it’s most artificial.

Your story doesn’t even hint at that clear reality; you maintain throughout the fiction that the NCNA is an organization separate from the larger Republican party organization.

appollyon
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You do realize that Dems still controlled the House after the 1984 elections right? You also realize that we had 47 Senators in 1884 which was a gain of 2 from the previous midterms right? And Dems were so demoralized that they retook the Senate in 1986. You also realize that there hasn’t been a 60 seat majority in the Senate since the 1930s right? The Presidency is one thing, but you are missing the rest of the evidence. The Republicans are trending down nationally and there doesn’t appear to be an end in sight.

Media Matters has a little problem with the Graham is a moderate on the judicial thing.
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http://mediamatters.org/blog/200905040010#comments

Morning Joe was interesting this morning.
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Joe actually criticized Newt demonising democrats.
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Will he apologise tomorrow?

Ah, media matters, those guys.
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Which studies say the media has an overall conservative bias? I’m not completely discounting the possibility but I just would like to see some. Seeing opposing views makes for a more well-rounded viewpoint. I would also like to say that anyone who criticizes Fox News for being biased but then watches MSNBC is a hypocrite of the highest order. I consider myself to be a moderate conservative but don’t watch Fox News because I’d rather get more educated, professional, unbiased news.
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And how about the fact that vast majorities of media elites vote Democrat, isn’t that worth noting? Admittedly this has gotten better since the 60s and 70s (4/5 voting for McGovern in ’72), but there is still a huge disparity. I’ll post more on here later, gotta go to class now.

The country is trending toward the left and the republicans have been trending even further toward the right. They’re not only fighting each other, they’re fighting a historic shift in the public’s attitudes. After the election the right claimed that they lost because McCain wasn’t conservative enough. The base wants to move even further to right because they believe the public will follow them if they do. It just isn’t sinking in that they are TOO conservative. It’s more than a little ironic that they chose a pizza joint for a relaunch of the party. Pizza is greasy, can cause indigestion and isn’t good for your health. It’s appropriate but sends out a subliminal message that only they don’t get. They’re just plain batsh!t crazy. If they’re intent on being a laughingstock, their next meeting is going to be at a Taco Bell. They won’t get that either.

Media elites? Where do you go for your talking points?

One more thing for now, SG, are you really saying that the Republicans’ situation today is not at least comparable to the Democrats’ in the 80s? God, I remember hearing people talking about a long-term decline in the Democrats after 2004!!! What about back in the FDR days when the Republicans suffered through four consecutive landslides, and there was a 17/76 split in the Senate at one point? And now I’m late, crap.

apollyon07:
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It’s not who says it so much as what they say.
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This is a scientific issue, and is best addressed by the mechanics of consensus in sceince. These individuals have presented numerous, and scientifically legitimate objections to the data collection techniques the authors used.
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The core issue in scientific credibility is how data is collected and used. In short, the two authors published a scientific paper and is subject to review just like any other.
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And believe me, the process of review can be very harsh…

I don’t see much, if any similarties between the two periods of time, but I’ll defer.

apollyon07:
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Sorry but one more comment to elaborate on the publication and review of scientific papers:
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My point is, that if Rush Limbaugh* were to publish a scientifically rigorous paper in whatever field he chose, if it succeeded in passing the peer review process and gained the support of other workers in the field he wrote in, whatever it was that he espoused in that paper would become the consensus view.
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*blast his soul, but that’s not the point

apollyon
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Were the people saying these things just long time Republicans? Because what you are saying about the Democratic party in 1984 and in fact in 2004 just doesn’t comport with the facts. Nobody was talking about the Democratic party itself being doomed because of a loss of the Presidency and thats the point you keep missing. Losing the Presidency is one thing. Losing whole regions in Congress AND losing the Presidency is quite another.

The FDR era analogy doesn’t hold up for several reasons. The Civil Rights legislation was two decades in the future. Back then it was an accomplishment that minorities could vote at all in certain parts of the country. We were an overwhelmingly white majority country then. Lesbians and gays didn’t exist back then. Atheists/agnostics didn’t exist then. Newspapers, radios and TV were the only sources of information. You could commit a gaffe and it wouldn’t be immortalized on YouTube (no internet). The gulf between the parties was negligible compared to now. Neither party tried to portray ignorance as a desirable trait. People like Palin and Joe the Plumber would never have had any impact whatsoever back then. The similarities between now and then are only statistical curiosities, nothing more.

I find the discussions of the revitalization of the repubs to be rubbish. What are they saying? We don’t really believe in the illogical, divisive, destructive ideology anymore. We aren’t going to continue being what we have been and are? Rubbish. For various reasons, they were handed the reins and screwed up very badly. Now, like a mob in panic they talk in generalities about changing the party. Start with the party platform. Drag it out and have a look see. My guess is that nothing will change. If the dems screw up badly, the warped repubs may even get another shot. America has a short memory relating to politics.

One more thing for now, SG, are you really saying that the Republicans’ situation today is not at least comparable to the Democrats’ in the 80s?
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No, it’s not. I know the media made a big fuss about the Reagan revolution, but it turned out to be revolutionary in only one respect–shifting more of the tax burden from the top decile to the bottom three quintiles. See Will Bunch’s Tear Down This Myth.
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Up until 2000, Republicans could talk about limited government, and smaller government and fiscal responsibility and free markets. When they never actually achieved (or ftm proposed) solutions involving any of those principles, they always blamed whatever branch of the government they did not control. So they could plausibly say to voters that they were against washington as usual, against spending, against deficits.
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But now they can’t. Anybody who is sane can see that they have simply been lying for the last quarter century. The core was completely rotten. The GOP inability to blame anybody else for this rotten core is apparent to everyone, except the reality challenged rightmost wing. So they keep saying batsh!t crazy things, driving the remaining sane ones out of the party.
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Take this quote from Cantor at the Beltway pizza party:
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But cap-and-trade? “Ohhh nooo!” he said with a half-smile and half-sigh, like a frustrated but patient tutor. “That’s the government deciding on the value of carbon,” he added, and Republicans want to look to the private sector.
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This is the whip, and also the guy who is labeled a policy guy. Once again, the question is whether he’s ignorant or a liar, because cap and trade is expressly NOT the government deciding the value of carbon. It’s submitting the release of carbon to regulation by a free market. That’s the whole appeal of it, why economists like it, because it brings market principles into the regulation of the environment, as opposed to command economy methodology.
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They’re dead. They’ve got nothing. And there has never been a comparable moment for either party since the Republican party was formed.

Jay would it be possible to get your definition of what a “centrist” is?

I’m with you on this jayack. They have left a trail a mile wide that is contradictory to their own principles.
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Obama, on the surface, seems to be making headway with the economy* the self-inflicted damage will be even more appearant.
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It seems that even the private sector has abandoned them. Even after Obama’s announcement that he wants to close loopholes, there’s not a blip on the economics side, except for trash from Fox and other equally incredulous sources.
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I’ve noted that he has several irons in the fire, plus some new accomplishments. The hate crimes legislation, gay marriage (which has caught fire at the state level), the movement on credit consumer rights, and the two new initiatives, one on the tax loopholes, the other, which will be just as important in the long run, is the education proposals:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/03/AR2009050302251.html
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*encouraging signs, plus the investors like what they see, too. See:
http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/04/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm

“They’re dead. They’ve got nothing. And there has never been a comparable moment for either party since the Republican party was formed.”
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I think Obama is about to leave tracks a mile wide. He’s not a stupid guy, and I think he recognizes the opportunities this unique period of time offers.

It is a little awe inspiring to think that we’re here at a moment in our nation’s history that could very well be looked back upon a hundred years from now as a crossroads when we were offered two paths to follow and chose the one that reshaped America.

sacredh, as the saying goes, when you come to the fork in the road, take it.

sacredh, as the saying goes, when you come to the fork in the road, take it.

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I will be a blubbering mess when Yogi dies. Seriously. I’m talking like needing a week of bereavement leave at work blubbering mess.