Obama’s Mistake: Britain Did Torture

Last night, Barack Obama said he had recently read an article about Winston Churchill during the London blitz. “Churchill said, ‘We don’t torture,’when the entire British — all of the British people were being subjected to unimaginable risk and threat,” Obama said. “And then the reason was that Churchill understood, you start taking short-cuts, over time, that corrodes what’s — what’s best in a people. It corrodes the character of a country.”

It was, perhaps, the most powerful anecdote of the night, and an apparently powerful moral condemnation of President Bush, an admitted admirer of Churchill who kept the British leader’s bust in the Oval Office.  But it was not entirely true. Churchill may well have said that Britain did not torture, but British archives show clearly that captured Nazis were subjected to harsh treatment in order to extract information during World War II. This morning, Michael Tomasky points to this 2005 story in the Guardian about a secret World War II detention center called the “London Cage”:

The London Cage was used partly as a torture centre, inside which large numbers of German officers and soldiers were subjected to systematic ill-treatment. In total 3,573 men passed through the Cage, and more than 1,000 were persuaded to give statements about war crimes. The brutality did not end with the war, moreover: a number of German civilians joined the servicemen who were interrogated there up to 1948. . . .

Within the National Archives are documents from two official inquiries into the methods employed at the Cage, one which heard evidence that guards were under orders to knock on some prisoners’cell doors every 15 minutes, depriving them of sleep, and another which concluded with “the possibility that violence was used” during interrogations.

There is also a long and detailed letter of complaint from one SS captain, Fritz Knoechlein, who describes his treatment after being taken to the Cage in October 1946. Knoechlein alleges that because he was “unable to make the desired confession” he was stripped, given only a pair of pyjama trousers, deprived of sleep for four days and nights, and starved.

The guards kicked him each time he passed, he alleges, while his interrogators boasted that they were “much better” than the “Gestapo in Alexanderplatz”. After being forced to perform rigorous exercises until he collapsed, he says he was compelled to walk in a tight circle for four hours. On complaining to Scotland that he was being kicked even “by ordinary soldiers without a rank”, Knoechlein alleges that he was doused in cold water, pushed down stairs, and beaten with a cudgel. Later, he says, he was forced to stand beside a large gas stove with all its rings lit before being confined in a shower which sprayed extremely cold water from the sides as well as from above. Finally, the SS man says, he and another prisoner were taken into the gardens behind the mansions, where they were forced to run in circles while carrying heavy logs.

Amazing how the methods–sleep deprivation, starvation, hot/cold, stress positions–always remain the same. Be sure to read the entire story here.

Related Topics: Uncategorized
  • Latest on Swampland

    At CPAC, Romney Stresses Conservative Credentials

    Three days after a trifecta of losses underlined lingering questions about his ability to win over the Republican Party’s base, Mitt Romney arrived at CPAC to allay skeptics’fears. Throughout his second bid for the GOP nomination, Romney has made his business bona fides the centerpiece of his candidacy. But on Friday, before a packed room at the annual conservative confab, he sought to emphasize the record he compiled in Massachusetts. “I was a severely conservative governor,” he told the crowd. “I know conservatism, because I have lived conservatism.” 

    Romney: I Was A 'Severely Conservative' GovernorHuffPost Politics

    Pablo Martinez Monsivais / AP

    Mired in the Sticky Politics of Health and Faith, Obama Shifts on Contraception

    In the face of mounting pressure from Catholic leaders and politicians, the White House on Friday tweaked its position on contraception coverage mandates in the Affordable Care Act. Rather than require large religious institutions like Catholic colleges and hospitals to provide employees with free health insurance coverage for contraception, insurance companies themselves will have to pick up the tab.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Scherer
    .
    Wingnuts will undoubtedly claim that Britain just got “rough” with the Nazis. Oh wait they will probably acknowlede that its torture so they can use it against Obama and also use it to justify what we did. What was I thinking…
    .
    I would correct you on one thing though, I don’t believe President Obama has ever singled out any of the harsh treatments as torture other than waterboarding so we don’t actually know if he thinks the other techniques qualified as torture.

  • sacredh

    MS: Thanks for bringing this up. The issue is worth keeping in the news. Torture is torture. It was wrong then, it is wrong now. I fully understand the desire to exact revenge by using torture, but we have laws against it to keep us from practicing it. It’s a heinous crime. There is no justification, either legally or morally.

  • jsfox

    The story President Obama was possibly referring to:

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/04/churchill-vs-cheney.html

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/ben_macintyre/article729216.ece

    So one source says they didn’t and one source say they did. Sound familiar?

  • Joe Bftsplk

    Off-topic/request for new post:
    Chrysler declares bankruptcy.
    S&P up 1.5% this morning.
    WTF?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    This just helps highlight something we know. The temptation to use torture and to justify it is very high. Otherwise we would have no need for the Geneva Conventions, The Red Cross, Amnesty International or The US Code Title 18 Part 1 Chaspter 113C.
    .
    It’s only because the temptation is so great and the ability to judge our own actions dispassionately is so small, that these institutions are put in place so that our higher selves can prevail.

  • afguy

    Chrysler declares bankruptcy.
    S&P up 1.5% this morning.
    WTF?

    .
    Joe,
    .
    Any correlation between “what’s good for the country as a whole” and “what’s good for Wall Street” disappeared a long time ago.
    .
    Downsizing of any sort has recently always seemed to bump up the stock indices.
    .
    In a sane world, the two would track each other. Unfortunately, we aren’t at that point right now . . .

  • montrealdude

    Was this British unit using torture under the orders of the government? If we dont know that answer, isnt that a good reason to push now to found out how involved the American govt was involved in torture? Or are you guys still stuck on whether it was torture and /or whether it was good or evil or neither to do such acts? Maybe your country is just hoping this current torture story will fade away, until 50 years from now a story comes out about torture that nobody reads. If you do that however, the United States will truly be just another country, with no claims to higher moral ground.

  • rustyreturns

    Our dear leader sure does get lots of historical notes wrong on regular basis. Do you suppose it is to sound more “Presidential” when he gives his great speeches, or is it an attempt to justify his positions?
    .
    I am thinking the latter.
    .
    For someone that people even on this site pronounce him to be “such a breath of fresh air to be so intellectual”, he sure does screw up on the historical facts on a frequent basis.
    .
    54 States quote anyone? “I’ve been to all 54 States in the United States”, I believe was what he said.
    .
    I just don’t get it. Hypocrisy runs wild these days.

  • Matt

    Some low-level fact checker is bound to get fired…

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • FlownOver

    So did Churchill (a) lie and (b) use his government’s lawyers to twist existing legal standards to justify this activity? Did Churchill specifically authorize the actions claimed by the SS guy to have been applied? Is there documentation confirming the German’s claim? If not, this is Sesame Street stuff – “One of these things is not like the other…” – and what Obama said wasn’t even arguably wrong.
    .
    A reminder from Reporting 101: If your mother says she loves you, CHECK IT OUT!
    .
    And montrealdude, mercí – d’accord.

  • 53_3

    MS:
    .
    I noted two severe flaws in your reporting here.
    .
    1. Winston Churchill left office on July 27, 1945
    2. The events you speak of were under his successor, in 1948
    .
    That is all.

  • Art Pepper

    Be sure to catch Terry Gross’interview with Philippe Sands from yesterday’s Fresh Air. He lays out the case for why investigating possible war crimes is not optional, under our current legal framework, despite the nonsense being written by Klein, JNS, and others.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    53_3
    .
    Did Scherer just PWN himself? Ruh Roh.

  • 53_3

    I don’t even need to correct myself, MS, even though I misread and some were talking of 1946. One other thing:
    .
    Is it the job of our president to get everything correct about the history of Great Britain?
    .
    I think, MS, your article is a bit disengenuous and a bit of a stretch besides.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Wingnuts are so predictable.

  • 53_3

    I tink so, sg. Big time…

  • Joe Bftsplk

    afguy, thanks for the reminder — that helps me form a coherent world view.

  • 53_3

    I think that MS wrote before he thought.
    .
    After all, he has to hand out some popsicles to his peers…

  • montrealdude

    If Churchill said Great Britain didnt torture, one would think that you could say that was true. Then again, Bush said the same thing so….

  • 53_3

    Except for the fact that Churchill left office before any of the events MS describes took place!
    .
    Granted, montrealdude, they could have done it without his knowledge, but it is just as likely that he either didn’t know or they weren’t torturing under his admin.
    .
    This one’s one I think MS needs to pull…

  • Art Pepper

    From the article: Between July 1940 and September 1948, however, these three magnificent houses were home to one of the country’s most secret military establishments [...] known colloquially as the London Cage.
    .
    Also: It is clear, however, by late 1946 there was “disquiet about [Scotland's] methods” being expressed at the headquarters of the British army, which implies the practices had been going on for longer.

  • Art Pepper

    Whether Churchill knew about it:
    .
    It is impossible to discern, from the War Office archives, whether Scotland was regarded by this time as a maverick whose methods were to be quietly overlooked, or whether he was acting with clear, official approval.

  • billiecat

    53_3 – it is clear from the story that similar violations occurred during the war. It’s not clear that they were officially sanctioned, however, so the parallel to the last eight years is incomplete.
    .
    However, I find it refreshing that a mainstream reporter is willing to call sleep deprivation and stress positions “torture.” That’s progress.

  • montrealdude

    I’m just going by the wiki page about this Scotland officer, and it seems he was in charge of this Cage during the war. Granted its wiki, so for all i know Colbert posted that info based on something he heard from some guy.

  • 53_3

    Art:
    .
    You may have a point, but I think this makes it more disengenuous for MS to point out an ‘error’on Obama’s part. How is it that a US president is supposed to know that there is “implicit” information that what Churchill said wasn’t true?
    .
    There could have been, of course, but there may not have been, also. Is it possible also that Churchill didn’t know?
    .
    Late 1946 is a full year after Churchill left office.

  • gysgt213

    Am I missing something? What is not entirely true? If even the events took place while Churchhill was in office did Obama say the British did not torture or did he repeat a reference about what Churchill said?

  • montrealdude

    billiecat: Does that mean Scherer believes America tortured? I wonder if theres a list on which journalists believe it was or wasnt torture.

  • Art Pepper

    billiecat: Yes, it’s worth noting that the Guardian article is not a long attempt to justify the policy or dance around the issue with euphemisms, unlike certain cough media personalities in our country.
    .
    Another relevant quote:
    .
    Among the defendants was Erich Zacharias, a sergeant in the Gestapo’s frontier police. The only evidence against him was his confession which, MI5 noted in its assessment of Scotland’s memoir, had been signed only because “being a prisoner in their hands, he had been worked on psychologically”.

  • 53_3

    I actually think, having seen more clarification that you guys might be right, and I would not be surprised if they actually did torture.
    .
    I think that MS, though, should have made clear that this is an implication that Churchill was wrong and not present it as fact.
    .
    And I think for MS to take it past that and raise expectations that Obama is supposed to know these finer points about British history, when he is POTUS, is really off base.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I think you guys are holding Scherer to an unecessary standard. he’s interested in the issue. He’s exploring different aspects of it. And he’s found something interesting and unexpected. Whether Obama is “wrong” is a rather unimportant distraction from the observation that Britain was clearly violating the Geneva Conventions and it’s own laws at the time but were anxious to keep things quiet at least until the victims were safely executed.
    .
    The wingnuts like to point to all the bad stuff that happens in the world and pretend that it justifies all the worst stuff we can come up with in turn. We do ourselves no favors by pretending that the stuff they point to doesn’t actually exist.

  • 53_3

    gygst213:
    .
    Last night, Obama used Churchill as an example of how someone resisted the temptation to resort to torture during the Battle of Britain.
    .
    Churchill was quoted as saying that they (the British) don’t torture.
    .
    MS is saying he’s wrong, because there are implications from other sources that they may have tortured with or without Churchills’knowlege (we don’t know which).
    .
    MS cited cases in ‘late 1946′ and ’1948′ to point out that Churchill did indeed torture, and to make it seem that Obama slipped up.

  • gysgt213

    Maybe I AM just stupid. But Churchill by the statement was clearly not embracing torture and that was the point Obama was making. SO HOW IS THAT A MISTAKE ON OBAMA’s PART?

  • Art Pepper

    53_3: Yes, I agree it’s not totally clear that Obama “made a mistake,” nor is it clear (at least from the article) whether Churchill told a deliberate untruth or whether “no torture” really was the official policy and Scottland was a rogue operator. Apparently the allegations did not begin to surface until ’46 – ’48, after Churchill left office, as you point out.

  • billiecat

    Art – I was actually referring to MS. That little slip might have cost him a gig at the NYT.

  • 53_3

    gygst213:
    .
    I read MS’s article as implying that.

  • rustyreturns

    53_3 Says:
    Thursday, April 30, 2009 at 12:06 pm
    “And I think for MS to take it past that and raise expectations that Obama is supposed to know these finer points about British history, when he is POTUS, is really off base”.
    .
    And why pray tell wouldn’t Obama be expected to know his sources if he is going to condemn a prior administration of illegal acts?
    .
    Or are you saying, “as long as Obama gets MOST Of the facts right, then he should get a pass”?
    .
    More far left liberal bull-crap!

  • 53_3

    We’ve had rogue operators too. I think we always will.

  • Art Pepper

    Anyway it’s still an interesting story, so I’m glad Michael posted the link. And this comment is spot-on:
    .
    Amazing how the methods–sleep deprivation, starvation, hot/cold, stress positions–always remain the same.
    .
    Torture is torture. And torture is illegal.
    .
    Also: It’s shameful that the British supressed the book. But it’s worth noting the British did not brag about how wonderful and effective the techniques were and how it wasn’t “really” torture.

  • 53_3

    So rustynuts, you are saying that Obama, the president of the United States, must know all aspects, finer points or not, of the history of Great Britain?
    .
    If you do, I rest my case, without comment.

  • Art Pepper

    53_3: Unfortunately our rogue operators were the VP and the Sec Def.

  • gysgt213

    “Churchill was quoted as saying that they (the British) don’t torture.”
    .
    53-thats my point. Obama quoted what Churchill said he didn’t go on to further alleged that there were no allegations of torture against the British. So where is the glaring error or mistake on Obama’s part?

  • 53_3

    It is an interesting post, Art, and other than to say that maybe he shouldn’t imply that Obama slipped up, I also agree.

  • montrealdude

    I think one would expect that if Churchill said “Britain doesnt torture” than one could safely say “Churchill said ‘Britain doesnt torture’”.

    Now whether Churchill was a closet Bush Torture supporter is another question. But you need facts for that.

  • rustyreturns

    gysgt213 Says:
    Thursday, April 30, 2009 at 12:11 pm
    “Maybe I AM just stupid. But Churchill by the statement was clearly not embracing torture and that was the point Obama was making. SO HOW IS THAT A MISTAKE ON OBAMA’s PART?”
    .
    In my response to this rediculous statement, Obama did make a mistake in using the analogy that Britain, in specific Churchhill did not condone torture when in fact they did do it subvertly.
    .
    The point Obama was attempting to make and was wrong that “civilized” countries have morals and ideals that strongly oppose any form of coercive interrogation. No, it is Obama’s opinion that the Bush Administration will not use this type of interrogation, and has condemned for political reasons a prior administration’s tactics. It is simply, that simple. And, you are stupid for defending his position to say bluntly.
    .
    I hope the next administration also treats Obama’s administration with the same scrutiny. I hope everything he does going forward is totally exposed for what it is.
    .
    If this was truly torture, put out all of the memos, not just those that back up what Obama says is so. This is the injustice that is being played out before our very eyes on this subject. Let the Americans vote and choose as to what is right and what is wrong.

  • billiecat

    Art & 53_3 – the wiki article about Scotland refers to a formal protest to the Secretary of State for War by the head of MI5 in 1943. We may never know what Churchill’s awareness of these allegations was, or whether it was quietly condoned, but it would not surprise me if he did know.
    .
    This may have been only an instance of a “bad apple,” and Obama’s larger point may be valid, however. I don’t think it’s worth crucifying MS over it, though.

  • 53_3

    I don’t see any at all, gygst213. None whatsoever. I’m of the opinion MS is trying to make a bit of poltical mileage with his peers in the industry by dogwhistling it.

  • billiecat

    By the way, the head of MI5 that made that protest was Maxwell Knight, the model for Ian Fleming’s “M”.

  • 53_3

    I agree, billiecat, Art, and montrealdude. I’ve decided that at most, MS is trying to dogwhistle that message.
    .
    Notice that rustynuts heard it loud and clear?

  • rustyreturns

    53_3 Says:
    Thursday, April 30, 2009 at 12:16 pm
    “So rustynuts, you are saying that Obama, the president of the United States, must know all aspects, finer points or not, of the history of Great Britain?”
    .
    Absolutely, especially when he is attacking a former administration with his allegations.
    .
    The only thing this will do is further damage America’s reputation around the world. But, I do not believe Obama gives a rat’s ass what anyone around the world cares about so long as his reputation remains so called flawless. This whole “torture” garbage is simply politics, something that Obama said he would not do. Everything so far that he said he wasn’t going to do, he has done the opposite.
    .
    Obama only cares about what he looks like in front of the TeeVee. The lastest stupid action they took with Air Force One in New York proves my point. It is all about soundbites and photo ops for Obama. The hell with the American people so far as Obama is concerned.
    .
    And, you and your left wing zealots just eat it up.

  • 53_3

    “Let the Americans vote and choose as to what is right and what is wrong.”
    .
    They did, Rusty. On November 4, 2008.
    .
    Your side lost, so go home and get a life.

  • 53_3

    Oops! Sorry guys.
    .
    I’ll stop feeding the trolls!

  • afguy

    Let the Americans vote and choose as to what is right and what is wrong.
    .
    God, the stupidity and amorality in that statement boggles the mind.

  • rustyreturns

    Did stuartz return yet? I suppose not if this swamp is still over-ridden by the far left extremists.

  • 53_3

    afguy:
    .
    I think that he’s been drinking all day yesterday after the news that the wackos over in FOXland lost Specter.
    .
    He’s probably still got a bad hangover and forgot about the November elections. Maybe he woke up thinking Bush was still in office…

  • rustyreturns

    afguy Says:
    Thursday, April 30, 2009 at 12:26 pm
    Let the Americans vote and choose as to what is right and what is wrong.
    .
    “God, the stupidity and amorality in that statement boggles the mind.”
    .
    Oh please save me your self-rightesousness little liberal. Tell me why all of the memos should not be released so Americans may decide from what information was obtained and at what costs.
    .
    Amoral my ass. The only “amoral” bullcrap is Obama playing politics with our safety.

  • montrealdude

    Hey Rusty, as a non-american i have some idea on what the rest of the world thinks about your country, and believe me, you have no idea how much damage your country did with this torture stuff, and how much good obama is doing by putting distance away from it.

  • 53_3

    You know, gygst213, I need a checkup from the head up!
    .
    I read the article MS wrote, but I never read the title!
    .
    Dogwhistle my eye! MS said he made a mistake!
    .
    Sometimes, I pwn myself!

  • rustyreturns

    “Lost Specter”? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Specter was as much a Republican as you are 53 an no sense. Specter knows he is toast in Pennsylvania in 2010, and why he has now decided to show his true colors.
    .
    Try again little man.

  • choska

    Reading the article it sounds like the London Cage was the place to hand out torture in the name of revenge and sadism. Revenge and sadism is, of course, what gives Republicans a warm feeling running up their leg.
    .
    Obama’s larger point stands. Torture erodes our moral character. While it has certainly happened before in every country in the world, and it will happen again, that doesn’t make it right. When it is officially sanctioned and promoted by our leaders then we are no better than the Gestapo or the Taliban.
    .
    The Republicans, in their cowardice, say, “I’d rather be alive than worry about torturing someone.”
    I respond by saying, “Give me liberty or give me death.”
    .
    Anyone who would trade away their humanity and their values as an American in order to receive a fleeting level of security doesn’t deserve that security. And they certainly aren’t worthy of the sacrifices made by the millions of Americans before us who lived – and died – in support of American ideals.
    .
    Fascism came to America in the form of the Republican Party, which was holding a flag in one hand and the Bible in another. Their game plan was to demonize anyone they deemed not American enough. It is an old playbook. Gays, dark skin people, liberals, Roma, Jews, etc. have all been persecuted because they weren’t part of the right tribe. We cannot turn our backs on the crimes the Republicans committed. They must be held accountable. Otherwise we are all complicit in their crimes.

  • sqr1

    It is unclear to me whether MS’post was a “gotcha” attack on Obama’s recitation of history. Or whether he was simply using Obama as a launching pad to note that Britain did employ, in some capacity and at some point in time, techniques that were (or bordered on) torture.
    .
    One observation: MS states that the questionable techniques were employed “in order to extract information”. Let’s cut the crap. Torture is employed because its practitioners receive some sort of joy from inflicting pain. Whether out of rank sadism or an understandable (if unacceptable) desire to exact vengeance, extracting information is a pretext.

  • afguy

    53_3,
    .
    I tried to engage “he who shall not be named” in a civil discussion in the past. It’s a fool’s errand. He’s just not interested or capable of doing so.

  • rustyreturns

    montrealdude, you are from Canada and from Montreal yet to boot. Anything you say is simply more French appeasement and wacked out ideals. Go eat your french fries and let America alone.

  • michaelscherer

    53_3,

    As to timeline, read the whole story. The existence of the cage goes beyond the example I excerpted. To wit:

    “Between July 1940 and September 1948, however, these three magnificent houses were home to one of the country’s most secret military establishments: the London office of the Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centre, known colloquially as the London Cage.”

    Churchill was around.

  • sqr1

    I don’t know what I find more humorous. Dick Cheney pleading for the release of classified information. Or wingnuts like Rusty critiquing the intelligence of a Democratic President.

  • rustyreturns

    Nice slap-down, Michael. Keep ‘em honest buddy.

  • formerlyjames

    I remember exactly my conflicting thoughts last night when Obama made the statement, thinking I doubt that the Churchill assertions on the British and torture would pass scrutiny. And yet, I didn’t care because the statement served a noble purpose for the present time. MS exactly focused on my thoughts and I find the post interesting. As often happens to MS, too many people want to shoot the messenger. He is just making what I think is an interesting and cogent observation.

  • 53_3

    Actually, MS:
    .
    Do you think the POTUS needs to keep abreast of the finer points in British history?
    .
    I rest my case, again, without comment.

  • billiecat

    53_3 – Rusty hears voices in his head, too. Not suprising he’d hear a dog whistle when the telephone rings.
    .
    Here’s what Obama said in the transcript:
    .
    I was struck by an article that I was reading the other day, talking about the fact that the British during World War II, when London was being bombed to smithereens, had 200 or so detainees. And Churchill said, we don’t torture — when the entire British — all of the British people were being subjected to unimaginable risk and threat. And the reason was that Churchill understood you start taking shortcuts, and over time that corrodes what’s best in a people. It corrodes the character of a country.
    .
    Here’s what MS said above:
    .
    But it was not entirely true. Churchill may well have said that Britain did not torture, but British archives show clearly that captured Nazis were subjected to harsh treatment in order to extract information during World War II.
    .
    Hate to go all Clintonian on you, but MS’s motives depend entirely on what the meaning of “it” is. If “it” was Obama’s saying that Churchill said the British don’t torture, then MS is wrong. If “it” was Churchill’s statement that the British don’t torture, then MS is entirely correct – that’s not exactly so.

  • 53_3

    True, but now that I looked at the title of MS’s post, I’m not wrong, except to call it a ‘dogwhistle’attempt to catch Obama out.
    .
    No dogwhistle intended, he said so, and further, I find it ridiculous that either way, MS feels that the president of the United States needs to be an expert in the history of Great Britain.
    .
    Despite MS’s ‘slap’, he can’t make that stick unless he really thinks that is what POTUS is supposed to know!

  • rustyreturns

    Well let us all pray as Obama takes the so-called “high” and uppity road, that Americans will never be attacked on his watch as Commander in Chief. Especially as the Taliban move closer and closer to take command of Pakistan. A Pakistan which is nuclear armed. What shall Obama do then?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Don’t forget “entirely.”
    .
    Obama correctly quoted Churchill. Churchil lied. MS correctly pointed out that Churchill lied and that Obama appears to taken what Churchill said at face value and run with it.
    .
    You can’t claim the title of reality-based-community if you aren’t prepared to deal with unfortunate or inconvenient twists in that reality.

  • afguy

    Well let us all pray as Obama takes the so-called “high” and uppity road . . .
    .
    Now, who was it that defended this person against charges of racism?
    .
    Care to re-visit that conclusion?

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    Clearly Micheal the mistake is yours for thinking that someone somewhere in Britain during world war II might have tortured is the comparison of record. Did Churchill stand before his people and announce that torture was wrong and would not be tolerated? Did Churchill say that accusations of torture would be thoroughly investigated and prosecuted no matter where it led? Did he say that excuses such as just doing my job would not be accepted? And after all that grandstanding did he then sign-off on a systematic torture program, complete with legal justifications and specific how to instructions? No, okay then perhaps you might want to rethink your title before someone accuses you of being wrong.
    .
    Obama drew on a statement that Churchill even in the darkest times said that torture was wrong and caused harm to a country’s character. On the other hand, Bush railed against it while secretly authorizing a secret supposedly legal program, have you no sense how much worse that is than just a rogue operation.
    .
    It makes you wonder if the concentration camp records contained specifications for building the gas chambers with the same kind of dispassionate detail?.

  • michaelscherer

    53_3, i am late to this discussion about my post and don’t entirely understand it. Obama asserted last night that Churchill was against torture, but history documents that in World War II Britain such techniques were used against captured Nazis. That’s all I’m saying. Just correcting the record. I don’t think any of this has much to do with whether Obama is a bad or good man, or a bad or good president. Just correcting the record. You can keep score if you want to.

  • billiecat

    53_3 – I think you are over playing what MS said. The title is “Obama’s Mistake: Britain Did Torture.” Now, clearly, Obama’s point in telling the story was that, in a time of great stress, the British didn’t go to the “Dark Side” because Churchill recognized the “corrosive effect” it would have on democracy. And that is largely true, but as MS points out, there’s at least an asterisk there. You could legitimately characterize it as a mistake for Obama to have made that statement, even if the mistake was unintentional. It would be illegitimate to intimate that he was therefore “lying” or that his “mistake” was significant, but I think the point MS was making (and it was a pretty good one, I thought) is that there is nothing new under the sun, even when it comes to torture among democracies, not that Obama was dumb or lying.
    .
    You gotta nit-pick your battles, and this is one that doesn’t need to be fought.

  • afguy

    Obama asserted last night that Churchill was against torture, but history documents that in World War II Britain such techniques were used against captured Nazis.
    .
    Just correcting the record.

    .
    michael,
    .
    Just HOW are the two statements in the top entry mutually exclusive? Can’t they both be true?
    .
    If you’re just “correcting the record”, then correct the headline!

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Reread the article folks. If you don’t think Churchill was aware of what was going on, then you’re pushing the “wishful thinking” envelope hard. We are discussing the one of the inventors of carpet bombing after all.

  • billiecat

    Dee –
    .
    It makes you wonder if the concentration camp records contained specifications for building the gas chambers with the same kind of dispassionate detail?
    .
    Unfortunately, they did.
    .
    http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/bigauschwitz10.jpg

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    I don’t understand why this is so difficult, this is classic LSAT logic stuff. Micheal here is why your assertion is wrong and its not about Obama is a nice or bad guy.
    .
    After 9/11 our leader Bush authorizes a torture program.
    During WWII Churchill says torture is wrong.
    .
    Even if someone in Britain may have had someone tortured, it doesn’t mean it was authorized by Churchill and doesn’t make the Churchill statement invalid. the only way that Obama would be wrong is if you had some memos giving legal sanctions by Churchill’s political appointments.

  • afguy

    Paul,
    .
    Dresden, Cologne, Frankfurt. When I hear those names, I think of the firebombing by the RAF as a way to bring the civilian populaces to their knees and hopefully end the war sooner.
    .
    Just a very minor note (because I do agree with what you said) – carpet bombing was done mainly because of the inaccuracy of the bombsights of the time, but you also had to factor in the high losses the bombers suffered on those raids. The RAF and 8th AF simply didn’t want to have to go back to those targets any more than they had to.

  • FlownOver

    sqr1:

    Simple test – which do you think MS cares more about: achieving a journalistic “gotcha” or a detailed examination of questionable British practices in the 1940′s? Hint: how often has he posted previously in Swampland on mid-20th century British history?

  • afguy

    Paul,
    .
    In case I wasn’t clear – I consider firebombing a terror tactic and carpet-bombing a strategic method (like using a shotgun instead of a rifle to hit your target).

  • FlownOver

    Rusty:

    “Uppity?” You’ve got your hood on crooked again.
    .
    Disgusting.

  • billiecat

    Look, folks, Obama isn’t always 100% right and Michael Scherer isn’t always 100% wrong. As a journalistic “gotcha” this doesn’t amount to much. As an interesting blog post, it’s not bad.

  • Art Pepper

    The Guardian article says they don’t know what Churchill knew, but I agree with Paul: It would be naive to assume he didn’t know. I still remember Rummy claiming shock — shock! — about Abu Ghraib. Not to compare Rumsfeld to Churchill. Just that you trust a politician at your peril.
    .
    I thought Michael’s larger point was that Obama implicitly held up Britain as an example of a nation that didn’t torture even in WWII, which isn’t quite accurate as it turns out.
    .
    Yes, it’s not a logical contradiction that Churchill could say one thing while his government did another.
    .
    To me, the salient point is that this kind of stuff will always happen if we’re not vigilant. There are some in the media who, while opposed to torture, view it as a unique aberration of the Bush administration, and think that an executive order from Obama puts the entire issue to rest.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    billiecat — thanks for the link, I won’t be eating lunch today my diet thanks you.
    .
    And for the record its not about MS being wrong its about changing the subject. Individual incidents of torture is different than creating a systematic program complete with instructions on how to keep it legally justifiable. These memos look no different to me than a Nazi schematic its made in the same dispassionate way.

  • spob

    Funny how historical ignorance masquerading as erudition is A-OK for all the Obama analinguists in here. And it’s not that Obama doesn’t know English history (my guess is that Obama is ignorant of a lot of history), it’s that he acted as if he did and did not. I mean really, Andrew f’in Sullivan?
    .
    The bottom line is that Obama used a tall tale to make a political argument. Well, since his anecdote actually supports a Clintonian “we must have a policy against torture” , rather than a categorical non-use policy (and that’s assuming that the controlled waterboarding is torture), it would seem to me that Mr. Gibbs ought to be getting some hard questions about whether Churchill’s government’s actual practice was closer to Bush’s policy or his own.

  • afguy

    Another termite crawls out of the woodwork.

  • spob

    And the follow-up to Mr. Gibbs ought to be, and if Churchill’s government’s practice was closer to Bush’s policy than Obama’s, then why was Obama citing Churchill to support Obama’s views?

  • spob

    Gee afguy, Obama used a standard debater’s tactic, appeal to authority, and it turns out the authority actually supports the view Obama was opposing, and it’s off base to call BS?

  • spob

    Oh, and guys, how did Obama source his quote? Andrew Sullivan? Obama was talking about of the crack of his ass. I wonder what else he knows that just isn’t the case.

  • afguy

    Shakespeare says (Sam Shakespeare, that is):
    .
    Be wary that thou neither the trolls (nor the termites) feed.

  • spob

    I fail to see how my post is at all trollish, afguy. But I don’t expect much from liberals. I know you guys hate it when someone introduces some intelligent argument into the echo chamber.
    .
    Obama was talking out of the crack of his ass. Dispute that, you stupid f’in moron.

  • afguy

    Obama was talking out of the crack of his ass. Dispute that, you stupid f’in moron.
    .
    As Perry Mason was wont to say – “Gentlemen, I rest my case”.

  • rustyreturns

    Here you go spob. A whole host of Obama gaffe’s all put together in a really nice and neat web site.
    .
    http://www.gop.com/BarackGaffes/
    .
    I especially like this one!
    .
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-41589368182552768
    .
    Perhaps our very “intellectual” President should rely less on the teleprompter and more on historical facts that are researched before he opens his mouth.
    .
    Why does Barack rely so much on teleprompters?

  • rustyreturns

    spob,
    afguy is the biggest far left liberal troll on this site. Just ignore him.
    .
    His only defense is to use phrases such as “troll or racist” to defend his positions. 99% of the time he doesn’t contribute anything of substance at all.

  • spob

    oh afguy, amazing the lengths you’ll go . . . .
    .
    Look, he got caught using a fairy tale to support his position. Now you guys agree with his position, so you’ll forgive the mistaken appeal to authority.
    .
    But the problem is that when you’re talking to the country about how far the country will go to get information from known terrorists, one would think that POTUS, if he’s going to make a moral case against the actions of his predecessor (which is already in somewhat bad form) would ensure the accuracy of the anecdotes he cites in his favor.
    .
    But no. And you guys think that it’s illegitimate to even call him out. Who are the trolls now? Jerks.

  • http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni-pr/948608-dont-make-federal-case-out-those-three-lawyers-saying-waterboarding-okay-5.html#post11671937 Don’t make a Federal case out of those three lawyers saying waterboarding was okay… – Page 5 – FlyerTalk Forums

    [...] more on Churchill and torture: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co…vs-cheney.html Oops. "Obama’s Mistake: Britain Did Torture." "The secrets of the London Cage." You and President Obama shouldn’t believe [...]

  • jlofton

    Oh, and don’t forget Churchill’s note to General Ismay re: dropping poison gas on German cities (and ridiculing as “Psalm singers” those Christians who might object); he also wanted to do something with anthrax, too, I believe. In principle, Churchill and America were no different from the Nazis re: the murder of civilians. See, please, among other books, Ronald Schaffer’s “Wings Of Judgment: American Bombing In World War II” (Oxford, 1985). And of course there is America’s allowing more than 50 million abortions, the murder of innocent human beings in the womb* — 50 million being the approximate number of all those killed, on both sides, in World War II — 50 million being three times the population of Iraq whose dictator we said was the focus of all evil in the world because he killed an estimated one million people. We have shed a lot of innocent blood — which God says in His Word He hates. We are morally qualified to judge NOBODY!

    John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
    Recovering Republican
    JLof@aol.com

    * There’s more than a 9/11 in the womb, every day in America, round the clock, 24/7.

  • http://real-url.org/twitted.php?id=1661529772 Twitted by TiagoDF

    [...] This post was Twitted by TiagoDF – Real-url.org [...]

  • http://factsinteresting.com/facts-interesting/obamas-primetime-slip-britain-did-torture-time-magazine/ Obama’s Primetime Slip: Britain Did Torture (Time Magazine) | Facts: Interesting | Facts: Interesting

    [...] Go here to see the original [...]

  • Cliff

    afguy is the biggest far left liberal troll on this site.
    .
    You know, apart from all the other biggest far left liberal trolls here.

  • http://aroundthesphere.wordpress.com/2009/04/30/they-diddid-not-torture-the-guardian-article-debate/ They Did/Did Not Torture: The Guardian Article Debate « Around The Sphere
  • textee

    Does anyone know from where the alleged “article about Winston Churchill” came that the clueless socialist cited last night in his appearance before those enchanted fools of the White House press corps? The Daily Kos? Time magazine? The Huffington Post? The New York Times-Democrat? The Washington Post-Democrat? Didn’t the clueless socialist ungraciously return the bust of Winston Churchill that the British had given the United States and wrapped it with copies of the New York Times-Democrat commemorative issue saluting their adored community organizer?

  • ifticar

    It does not matter how stupid or wrong and any Obama pronouncement is. His disciples will find an excuse to make him smart and right. Any psyschologist wanting to study cognitive dissonance would have a rich data field with the Obama Messiaenism.

  • afguy

    afguy is the biggest far left liberal troll on this site.
    .
    Thank you for this award . . . I’d like to think all of the other people who made this possible but there’s so little time . . .
    .
    So…just…thank you. You love me . . . you really love me!

  • papapandapaw

    One porblem with your story wingnut.

    President Obama said Winston Churchill’s government didi not torture during Wordl War II.

    Churchill was removed from office July 26, 1945. If you read the entire story you’re quoting from you’ll see the tortures referred to happened in 1946 and 1947. That would be during the administration of Prime Minister Clement Richard Attlee. So, numb nuts, President Obama didn’t make the mistake. You did.

    Torture is wrong no matter what the justifications.

    Essayons

  • papapandapaw

    One more thought.

    Do not try to equate the mass bombings of civilian targets with the torture of prisoners by the Bush Administration. One of the real dirty facts of war is that innocent people die. Nazi Germany made war on the world, and the only way to defeat Nazi Germany was to drive it to its knees, where it could never rise again.

    The Bush Administration authorized the torture of prisoners in direct violaiton of international treaties to which the United States was a signatory. They violated international law, and they committed war crimes. America stands for a higher level of justice than the Bush Administration followed.

    Essayons

  • 53_3

    afguy:
    .
    How is it that you got that award and I didn’t?
    .
    Life’s not fair!

  • nathan7777

    spob:
    .
    Obama’s argument was indeed an appeal to authority, but it was neither mistaken nor fallacious. Obama was simply saying that even during WWII there were statements by the British leadership (namely Churchill in this case) that denounced torture. He used the information to argue that in times much darker than our own, people resisted the urge to torture their enemies. I find nothing wrong with this statement.
    .
    You have no idea what Churchill’s official policy was. History graduate students could probably write their dissertations on the war time interrogation policy of Winston Churchill. Are you about to tell me that Churchill adored torture and authorized an extensive interrogation policy that included torture as one its methods? If so, let me know, because I know a couple of History professors who would love to site you as a source.
    .
    Seriously, the only way Obama’s argument could be in any way diluted or destroyed was if Churchill actually condoned the use of torture, and you have nothing to back that up.
    .
    MS does bring more information to the table — it’s an interesting topic — but it’s a complex subject that certainly cannot be captured in a sound bite.

  • http://www.four-facedliar.com/2009/04/even-with-the-staged-lovefest-obama-gaffes-no-tellyprompter/ Even with the staged lovefest Obama gaffes (No tellyprompter) | Four-FacedLiar.com
  • sacredh

    Get serious folks. I’M the most far left liberal troll on this site. There’s me and then there’s the wannabes. That crown is going to have to be pried from my cold dead fingers.

  • spob

    nathan, get a room, your analingus is disgusting . . . .
    .
    Apparently, Churchill realized the benefit of propaganda. Torture went on in WWII under his leadership. Perhaps, he had deniability. Whatever. The bottom line is that Obama cited a guy who led a government that did real torture. What’s he gonna do next, cite Saddam Hussein for women’s rights, even though he used rape as a political weapon?

  • 53_3

    If that’s all you got, spob, I guess, that’s all you got.
    .
    I never really understood why, as president of the United States, why he needs to be up on the fine details of another country’s history. I’d sooner see him doing what he’s doing, which is paying attention to things here.
    .
    Aren’t you trying to sell bit o’DFYDx2? If he doesn’t know everything, he’s a sham, but then again, he’s a “messiah”, so WTF?
    .
    BTW, howz things going on the old defection front? Is the GOP getiong pure enough yet?

  • cfukara

    Living humans are affected by death of one of their own in certain profound ways. It makes them acutely aware of their own mortality. There are wakes, burial ceremonies, calls for justice/revenge/vendetta – and a refuge in religiosity.

    What concerns many is that most of the victims of torture in London, Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, Baghram and the may destination of rendition flights were ordinary yahoo – men, women, teens – just as innocent and/or far removed from the belligerency as I am – and as you are, dear reader.

    Hence our fascination with USA’s piety and orgy of torture over the past few years. It reminds us that it could happen to (innocent) us too.

    Perhaps Rumsfeld, Rice, Bush, Gonzales, Cheney are not bothered by such human/humane considerations. But then they have not offered to taste the medicine that they are peddling – just to prove to us that it is as harmless are they say it is.

    One may opine that Hitler may not have successfully deflected culpability with regard to the atrocities committed – with or without his knowledge – in WW2 by his men.
    And, perhaps, neither should Bush #43.

    And even today, we pursue those who were merely following orders in WW2 – and the employees doing a job like standing guard at the Hitler’s torture camps.

    Our conscience may hold that neither should the soldiers, guards, contractors and commanders in Iraq nor at our concentration/ rendition camps all over the world.

    .

    Note: If you want to know about my Klingon mother and her mission on earth, I would tell you all about it with as much convincing detail as I can muster – if I am under torture or even under the threat of it.

    A good story may bring momentary respite/reprieve from THIS pain. After all, if I have no detail or no story and no “information” that is needed, then the current diabolical torture will continue with increasing severity, right? [Let us worry later when the story does not pan out.. The pain exists and must be dealt with in the here and now.]

    .

    And most of you would give stories/”information” under torture – some true and others imagined but fervently believed.
    Talk about self-preservation in life threatening situations.

    And in extreme life-threatening circumstances (such as those last few moments faced by those innocents without life-saving information to give and thus died under our CIA’s torture) it is the imperative to keep that fire – that ‘life’or that ‘awareness’– burning AN INSTANCE LONGER at ANY cost.

    I suggest that such is a circumstance never faced by most of USA’s proponents of war and torture.

blog comments powered by Disqus