In the Arena

A Sane Approach on Torture

The New York Times has two pieces of interest on the Bush Administration’s torture policy today. The first is an authoritative op-ed column by Ali Soufan, who was one of the FBI officials who interrogated Abu Zubaydah and others. Soufan validates the philosophical split between the FBI and the CIA on interrogation procedures that Jane Mayer first reported in The New Yorker and her excellent book, The Dark Side. And he definitely trashes the idea that water-boarding elicited any new information from Zubaydah. But he also believes that the CIA interrogators–who may have been outside contractors–should not be prosecuted.

The second Times piece discusses the difficulty in successfully prosecuting any of the Bush officials involved in this disgraceful business, an opinion that conforms to what I’ve been hearing from other sources. To convict, say, Jay Bybee, you’d have to prove that he knowingly wrote an illegal opinion, which is near-impossible to do. I’d still like to see the sucker impeached and kicked off the 9th District Court, though. Is lack of judicial temperament or arrant inhumanity an actionable offense?

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  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    For once, I can’t argue with you.
    .
    But this needs to be highlighted:
    .
    My C.I.A. colleagues who balked at the techniques, on the other hand, were instructed to continue. (It’s worth noting that when reading between the lines of the newly released memos, it seems clear that it was contractors, not C.I.A. officers, who requested the use of these techniques.)
    .
    To date I haven’t been among those calling for prosecutions but as I noted the other day, its the bad arguments against them that actually create danger of my changing my mind.
    .
    Particulary the notion, that holding agents accountable for their actions will stymie their willingness to cross certain lines in the future, I can only respond That’s the effing point!
    .
    We need a robust intelligence service but we don’t need a bunch of loose cannons confident in the knowlege that they can do no wrong. It’s a recipe for disaster.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Moving in such a direction would have a deeply chilling effect on the ability of lawyers in any administration to provide their client — the U.S. government — with their best legal advice,” they wrote.
    .
    Again. That’s the effing point
    .
    Using the phrase “Best legal advice” to describe absolutely horrible legal advice is quite rich….
    .
    The point about juries is also very salient. The reason we have jury trials in the first place is to protect against an overzealous reading of the law resulting in unjust convictions. And it’s certainly wiothin a prosecuter’s discretion to NOT bring charges if that’s the likely result.

  • neponset

    This is why a truth commission is a good idea. Prosecuting these people isn’t a good option. If Congress or the Obama Admin convene a truth commission at least we can document the abuses and make sure history knows how the Bush Admin broke our laws.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Another point worth mentioning. Joe has spoken several times about the difficulties Obama might have with the intelligence services and the Pentagon, with selective leaks undermining his authority or agenda. What better position to be in than “I want to move forward not backward BUT…..”
    .
    How many Republicans have spouted endlessly about the value of leaving nothing off the table?

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    There are people in jail for torturing people at Abu Ghraib. There is clearly a paper trail leading to approval of torture at GTMO. I really doubt there would be difficulty obtaining convictions up and down that paper trail. And even if turns out that a jury would be too stupid to understand what was going on, or that a judge would disallow evidence that made that clear, that’s no justification for not holding trials. People were tortured, illegally, in violation of both US law and treaties bound by US law. That is without doubt.
    .
    That public officials can exonerate each other by writing secret memos to each other is absurd. The frickin’ reason they kept the memos secret is because they endorsed deeply immoral violations of the law. If these opinions were legal, and issued in good faith, there would have been no need to keep them secret. The endless apologists for this very basic violation of law and decency, just because they are public officials living among the Villagers is simply appalling.
    .
    And, Joe, why are you granting anonymity to these sources of yours? IF they believe these convictions cannot be made, why won’t they say so on the record? Moreover, why do you hand them your (and TIME’s) credibility?

  • sevenoaks07

    To P.D. and Jayack: Amen; and thanks.

  • afguy

    Prosecuting these people isn’t a good option. If Congress or the Obama Admin convene a truth commission at least we can document the abuses and make sure history knows how the Bush Admin broke our laws.
    .
    neponset,
    .
    We pretty much did that with Iran/Contra. We knew what some of these bad players did. Nothing happened to them. And now some of them are back giving the same twisted advice, in similar advisory roles.
    .
    Sooner or later, we are going to have to stop simply “looking forward” and punish some of these people.
    .
    Otherwise, the cycle continues . . .

  • montrealdude

    A journalist who gives up his sources won’t stay a journalist for long, because noone will tell him anything.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd
  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Joe Klein
    .
    The op ed focuses on an opinion about how difficult it would be to prosecute Bush officials that comes from one Eric Posner. Why is that important you ask? Well lets examine some of the things Posner has said prior to giving his “definitive” opinion.
    .
    Inherent in the functioning of these powers is a degree of restriction of civil liberties. Critics see the restrictions as excessive, but the rationale for Bush administration’s approach is straightforward. The standard package of civil liberties in the United States—including the right to a trial and other elements of criminal procedure and protections against surveillance and searches—makes sense in a society in which the police can provide adequate protection from criminal threats. But, to an extent that is rarely appreciated, this legal regime is contingent on a balance of offensive and defensive technologies. 9/11 made clear that the balance has shifted.
    .
    Once we understand that the civil liberties a society enjoys reflect a tradeoff between security (including protection from criminality as well as external military threats) and the benefits of freedom, and, further, that security at any point will reflect technological changes that are largely outside of that society’s control, we ought to appreciate the Bush administration’s impulse to restrict civil liberties after 9/11. The problem to which the Bush administration and Congress responded with laws like the Patriot Act was not so much the threat of al Qaeda itself, but the vulnerability of the United States to destructive weapons in the hands of anyone with hostile intent.
    .
    Posner thinks the Constitution doesn’t matter. The freedoms we enjoy should be predicated on the challenges we face in his opinion.
    .
    You should also note that Eric Posner is a conservative and the author of a book entitled “Terror in the balance” in which he argues FOR torture/harsh interrogations.
    .
    http://books.google.com/books?id=iTcLIMooBp0C&dq=eric+posner&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=gTSAV1l1wM&sig=QhfkV8HkwHxBLModbgApsv-ZBm4&hl=en&ei=s3vwSbiRLdywtgfa2rgP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA25,M1
    .
    Its phucking appalling that the NYTimes presented this guy as a straight shooter on the issue

  • afguy

    Both Bob Casey and Casper Weinberger should have been in jail for what they did.
    .
    They received no punishment or were pardoned. We “moved on”. Now, their example has been validated in what is happening now.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    The second 2nd and 3rd paragraphs should be blockquoted thusly.
    .
    http://bostonreview.net/BR34.1/posner.php
    .

    Inherent in the functioning of these powers is a degree of restriction of civil liberties. Critics see the restrictions as excessive, but the rationale for Bush administration’s approach is straightforward. The standard package of civil liberties in the United States—including the right to a trial and other elements of criminal procedure and protections against surveillance and searches—makes sense in a society in which the police can provide adequate protection from criminal threats. But, to an extent that is rarely appreciated, this legal regime is contingent on a balance of offensive and defensive technologies. 9/11 made clear that the balance has shifted.
    .
    Once we understand that the civil liberties a society enjoys reflect a tradeoff between security (including protection from criminality as well as external military threats) and the benefits of freedom, and, further, that security at any point will reflect technological changes that are largely outside of that society’s control, we ought to appreciate the Bush administration’s impulse to restrict civil liberties after 9/11. The problem to which the Bush administration and Congress responded with laws like the Patriot Act was not so much the threat of al Qaeda itself, but the vulnerability of the United States to destructive weapons in the hands of anyone with hostile intent.

    .

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    A journalist who grants anonymity for no compelling reason is not a journalist. This is especially true when granting anonymity to a government official seeking to defend illegal acts. I urge you to review the NYT’s policies on granting anonymity.

  • Matt

    No question that it’s hurting Republicans to be so closely associated with Cheney in the torture fight. And besides their distaste for Darth, Americans also are firmly opposed to the techniques he and the GOP are defending.

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • sevenoaks07

    FYI: Elliott Abrams was involved in the Iran Contra mess and suffered a brief halt to his career. He ended up in the Bush Admin NSA team looking after Israel’s interests: which, of course went right alongside our own. That is what happens when you give these guys a pass to avoid roiling the body politic. They come back to continue their slimy ways. Remember the shameless Oliver North> And G Gordon Liddy: these guys have no shame.

  • rustyreturns

    Now that the can of worms has been open. The ONLY recourse is to investigate and if needed hold those accountable for their actions in a court of law.
    .
    Yes I have changed my opinion on this matter now, simply because with all that is now known, not to investigate it ALL would not be in the best interest of our Nation. Not doing so, would further damage our already damaged reputation as a Nation.
    .
    Obama has no choice now. I truly believe heads will roll from this, but maybe not the ones so many on this site, including our esteemed writer, Joe Klein THINK will roll.
    .
    Enjoy your controversy ladies and gentlemen. Enjoy indeed.

  • montrealdude

    As horrific as 9/11 was, to start ripping up your constitution (one of the finest living documents out there, if not the finest) in order to try and help safeguard against another attack is about the most cowardly thing i can think of. This Posner sounds like a Panic Room kind of guy.

  • Joe Bftsplk

    Matt, your link didn’t seem to match your comment. Is it correct?

  • afguy

    Obama has no choice now. I truly believe heads will roll from this, but maybe not the ones so many on this site, including our esteemed writer, Joe Klein THINK will roll.
    .
    Rusty,
    .
    You STILL don’t get it. If an investigation is conducted and Pelosi or Jane Harman are found to have committed crimes as a result, then they should go to jail. Same for those in the previous admin who ordered the policies that we now know occurred.
    .
    It speaks volumes that you think we would be against an investigation because it might catch some Dems who assisted or colluded in the process (because that’s why you are against it – the partisan political consideration?)
    .
    You still don’t get it . . . it’s to prevent ANY of this from happening again on ANYONE’s watch.

  • gysgt213

    Let me say this Joe-To prosecute or not prosecute is not up to you. It’s not up to your colleagues, its not up to the congress, its not up to the CIA, FBI or Cheney, or Rove, or Obama. Its up to Holder as the AG. That’s why we have an independent AG. So my point is you can find all the village consenses you want, but your opinions count for nothing.

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng
  • gysgt213

    I like to also point out that working in the WH, CIA, FBI or any other federal agency is not a “GET OF JAIL FREE CARD” even if in your opinion you are protecting the country.

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng

    gunny, totally off topic, but what do you think of this as a solution to the Texas Problem?
    .

  • gysgt213

    wvng-don’t have speakers watch it when I get home and get back to you. Thanks.

  • gysgt213

    U.S. Soldier Who Killed Herself–After Refusing to Take Part in Torture.

    With each new revelation on U.S. torture in Iraq, Afghanistan and Gitmo, I am reminded of the chilling story of Alyssa Peterson.
    .
    By Greg Mitchell
    .
    (April 23, 2009) — With each new revelation on U.S. torture in Iraq, Afghanistan and Gitmo (and who, knows, probably elsewhere), I am reminded of the chilling story of Alyssa Peterson, who I have written about numerous times in the past three years but now with especially sad relevance. Appalled when ordered to take part in interrogations that, no doubt, involved what we would call torture, she refused, then killed herself a few days later, in September 2003.
    .
    Of course, we now know from the torture memos and the U.S. Senate committee probe and various new press reports, that the “Gitmo-izing” of Iraq was happening just at the time Alyssa got swept up in it.
    .
    Alyssa Peterson was one of the first female soldiers killed in Iraq. A cover-up, naturally, followed.
    .
    http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/columns/pressingissues_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003965876

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng

    gunny, please do. It’ll be up at the top of the 12 pm post at my place – if you want to comment over there.

  • rustyreturns

    afguy Says:
    Thursday, April 23, 2009 at 11:05 am
    .
    “You still don’t get it . . . it’s to prevent ANY of this from happening again on ANYONE’s watch”.
    .
    Oh I “get it” alright, afguy. To a part I agree with your statement, “to prevent ANY of this from happening again on ANYONE’s watch”. However, I am also not naive and know that this has happened in the past, and will more than likely happen into the future. Why else would we even need “Top Secret” coding of certain documents in our Government?
    .
    In this specific case we simply disagree on the term “torture”. We disagree on what is torture and what is not. Again, like the lawyer opinions now versus those in the Bush Administration. You believe it is torture, I do not. It is that simple.
    .
    But, what is not so simple is the release of “Top Secret” documents by Obama and his henchmen, which now brings to question about this specific situation for everyone in our country and around the world. It not only drastically affects our National Security, but rips at the very fiber of our Country’s government. Obama has now set a precedent that anyone could come under an investigation by the succeeding Administration for any actions they took prior. Obama wants to use appeasement tactics with our enemies. Bush decided to use brute force. That we can agree or disagree on as well. But, FACTS are we were attacked on 9/11. Many Americans lost their lives. You support a theory that waterboarding is torture and therefore now many American lives are at risk because you have taken away a vital part of our intelligence community, the CIA. The CIA will not step one foot close to anything which they may deem as “controversial” or have the possibility of being investigated in the future.
    .
    Your pie in the F-ing sky progressive political “ethics” and the bogus political correctness bullcrap, are simply destroying the country before our very eyes. I strongly believe it is wrong and not only wrong, but will end in castrophe for our Nation. Not only dividing us further, but putting us back in harms way with our TERRORIST enemies.
    .
    Obama now has a major controversy on his hands and I for one hope he loses, and is impeached from it in the end. That would be the best justice of all.

  • Ohg Rea Tone

    These are difficult times – but our system of Government defines us. The idea of torture is appalling to most who seek an ordered society. But justice is not easy – there are always ramifications. ………

    http://thefiresidepost.com/2009/04/23/the-two-edged-sword-of-justice/

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng
  • rustyreturns

    Like I said, wvng. Your liberal progressive ideals deem this as torture. I do not. It is an opinion, just like we each have A-holes. It is simply which A-hole is a bigger threat to our society.
    .
    I’m guessing the A-hole progressive liberals is being defined as we speak. America is getting a good look, and I do hope they look hard at it all. I do hope that we do get to see everything, and not just a teasing bit of it all. I want to know it all, and I now have that right since Obama made the decision to de-classify this information. I want to decide if water-boarding truly did protect my family. If it did, then so be it.
    .
    Release the entire documents now, Mr Obama. Don’t play politics as usual.

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng

    digby has some more thoughts for rusty:
    .
    This is the way the right thinks. Limbaugh even famously believes that US soldiers should be allowed to torture prisoners to relieve their stress. And he’s still invited into the homes of seemingly decent people. They defend him on the pages of their magazines.
    .
    Here’s the thing: these people are puerile, schoolyard thinkers who believe in any means to an end. If they could have done what they truly wanted to do after 9/11, they would have opened concentration camps or started a nuclear war. They believe that you have to use everything you have at your disposal or the wogs (everyone but us) will think you are weak. That’s the full extent of their understanding of the way the world works.
    .
    That using torture and endless imprisonment of innocent people are immoral and disgusting taboos that put the perpetrator in the same company as history’s most evil villains is entirely unpersuasive to these people — they think that’s a good thing. But even on a practical level that even a very average 9th grader should be able to understand, you would hope they could see that these people hurt the nation in ways that we’ll be dealing with for decades — we showed that America loses its head when attacked, overreacts, spends and then botches the whole thing so badly we don’t know whether we are coming or going. We’ve shown that we are pants wetting, panic artists who will harm ourselves when frightened. And that is a weakness no powerful nation should ever allow the world to see.

  • gysgt213
  • spob

    Ah, but remember guys, Dem members of Congress were briefed on this:
    .
    http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/04/23/obama-caught-between-rock-and-a-hard-place-on-torture/
    .
    And now these turkeys are tut-tutting about “torture”. That’s rich. (Of course, it’s amazing that there isn’t a Swampland post about Dems who knew about it.)
    .
    As for Bybee, Joe, you are truly stupid. First of all, what is an “illegal opinion”? We don’t convict people for writing legal briefs that fail Rule 11, and we’re going to convict people of writing illegal opinions? Second of all, what is the “9th District Court”? Third of all, judges keep their offices during good behavior–maybe, just maybe, you should have mentioned the constitutional standard.

  • piper1

    Rusty:

    “In this specific case we simply disagree on the term “torture”. We disagree on what is torture and what is not. Again, like the lawyer opinions now versus those in the Bush Administration. You believe it is torture, I do not. It is that simple.”
    .
    Actually, its as simple as- we prosecuted Japanese soldiers for torture during WWII http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
    .
    and we prosecuted our own soldiers for waterboarding during Vietnam http://thinkprogress.org/2009/01/15/holder-waterboarding-torture/
    .
    So, no this isn’t just an honest difference of opinion. Waterboarding is torture. It was torture when the Japanese did it to us, and when we did it to the Vietnamese. You keep cheerleading for torture, litte man. Hope that bed stays a little drier tonight.

  • spob

    Just curious guys, what’s more outrageous, waterboarding KSM or the strip search of a teenager on the say so of some student that she had ibuprofen?
    .
    I know where I come out.

  • spob

    piper1–first of all, not all waterboarding is equal, second of all, waterboarding legitimate prisoners of war violates international law. The analogy is weak.

  • afguy

    I want to decide if water-boarding truly did protect my family. If it did, then so be it.
    .
    Sounds like you already have decided, Rusty. After all, ALL of this is about YOU, isn’t it?
    .
    I guess that, at some later date, if I need the police to water-board you to find out who broke into my house and stole my flat-screen tv, you’d be OK with that?
    .
    After all, it’s not torture, is it? What’s the harm?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    This has been another episode of “What Happens When You Try To Reason With A Troll”. Tune in tomorrow when commenters try to explain why fixing health care lowers the deficit……to no avail.

  • rustyreturns

    The only question is, who is Digby?
    http://tba2007.confabb.com/conferences/22121/blog/87
    .
    Oh that is easy, George Soros and MoveOn.Org that’s who!!
    .
    The far left liberal extremists do enjoy the internet.

  • afguy

    This has been another episode of “What Happens When You Try To Reason With A Troll”.
    .
    I know, sgw. Sorry, all . . . but Rusty can’t say we didn’t try to reason with him . . .

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng

    sgw, you are right. Pointing and laughing is actually the only reasonable approach. Except for encouraging them to continue in their self-destructive behavior.

  • rustyreturns

    afguy,
    Let’s see with your trite analogy of water-boarding for the sake of finding out who stole your TeeVee versus who may be plotting to take down another sky-scrapper in America, really justifies your case.
    .
    I think not.
    .
    Try again little liberal.

  • afguy

    wvng,
    .
    But they (trolls) do have a “tell” – the point at which they return to the name-calling signals the point at which they have run out of any cogent rebuttals to your points.

  • rustyreturns

    sglittlemanfromfla.
    .
    Where is stuartZ? I haven’t seen him commenting lately. It truly is a shame that he is now gone from the ridicule you and the other extremists on this site gave him.
    .
    Now let’s talk Troll, baby!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  • afguy

    Rusty,
    .
    We already know, you support torture because it MIGHT benefit YOU.
    .
    I was just trying to see to what lengths you would go to support it.
    .
    Must be lonely in your little world with everyone out to get you.

  • sacredh

    Whether or not to prosecute those who came up with the torture policy is going to be something the Attorney General decides. The AG gives advice to the president but is acting for the US. Gonzales was more of a personal attorney for Bush than anything else. He approached his job as giving cover to Bush, not protecting or acting in the best interests of the United States. If the investigations implicate democrats too, well that’s just too F’ing bad. This whole torture issue has stained the reputation of our country and our country comes before which side of the aisle is going down. ALL of those responsible need to be held to account. This goes far beyond partisan politics.

  • rustyreturns

    Hmmm…. Look here, another A-hole liberal who has an opinion. How surprising!
    .
    http://thinkprogress.org/2009/01/15/holder-waterboarding-torture/

  • afguy

    This goes far beyond partisan politics.
    .
    sacredh,
    .
    WELL beyond that. The “hopeless” among us just can’t see it.

  • spob

    oh sg, don’t get religious on us now, you tried to rebut my mocking of the Sainted One on the Austrian gaffe . . . .
    .
    then you got pwned.

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng

    afguy, I’m not really sure that rusty is a troll. I think rusty is a teabagger. You know, the teabaggers who, in the immortal words of Jason Linkins, had the genius for this:
    .
    As it turns out, the alternate plan — 1. Take a million teabags to Lafayette Park, 2. Dump them on a tarp, 3. Yell at them, 4. Clean up the teabags — also isn’t happening, because of permit issues.
    .
    They just like yelling. All of their leaders (Hannity, Limbaugh, Beck) yell a lot and call people names, so yelling and calling people names is their role model.
    .
    Kind of embarrassing, really.

  • shepherdwong

    Well, if it looks so difficult to prosecute those who ordered torture according to US law with US law, why not ship them to The Hague? These were also crimes against humanity, after all.

  • spob

    http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/04/23/obama-caught-between-rock-and-a-hard-place-on-torture/
    .
    And now these turkeys are tut-tutting about “torture”. That’s rich. (Of course, it’s amazing that there isn’t a Swampland post about Dems who knew about it.)
    .
    Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

  • afguy

    oh sg, don’t get religious on us now, you tried to rebut my mocking of the Sainted One on the Austrian gaffe . . . .
    .
    Speaking of the “hopeless” among us . . . right on cue, spob!

  • rustyreturns

    afguy,
    I “support” my country and its ability to keep it citizens safe. You however, would like to see another 3,000+ Americans die for the sake of your opinion.
    .
    I would like to see that Americans are not only kept safe from our enemies, but also to protect and defend from the likes of Hugo Chavez, Castro Brothers and anyone else that has ill-will against us.
    .
    You and the other little liberals have one agenda. The total destruction of the United States of America. To turn it into your fantasy Socialist land of Oz.
    .
    Obama doesn’t care about your civil liberties. He only cares what he looks and sounds like on TeeVee. Paris Hilton never had such a publicity whore persona to rival Obama’s, and only wishes now that she could become more like her Hollywood name-sake. Barack THE INSANE Obama.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    See if you wait long enough the mask comes off and the troll comes out full bore. But I still advise against feeding them, sooner or later they end up sh*tting all over the thread.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Of course, it’s amazing that there isn’t a Swampland post about Dems who knew about it….
    .
    You’re absolutely right. It would be a great idea to include a post about which Dems were onboard with the program when it was ongoing. We’re all about equal opportunity when it comes to identifying criminal negligence.
    .

  • rustyreturns

    You should feel bad, sgwhite. Feel bad for running out of the swamp in my opinion the most intelligent liberal “leftist” comment. stuartZ.
    .
    What a shame, what a shame.

  • spob

    well, afguy, my post was to sg’s about not reasoning with a troll (which you all call me). But he walked in, and ate a big (rhetorical) right hand.

  • afguy

    I “support” my country and its ability to keep it citizens safe. You however, would like to see another 3,000+ Americans die for the sake of your opinion.
    .
    Rusty,
    .
    Don’t even try to go there, chum. I spent 20+ years in the AF defending your right to behave like a self-absorbed moron right now.
    .
    Don’t even try to trot out that “I’m more patriotic than thou . . ” tripe.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    defend from the likes of Hugo Chavez, Castro Brothers and anyone else that has ill-will against us.
    .
    Fear is Rusty’s friend. He embraces it like a teddy bear. Don’t worry, when the cities all empty of their Islamic Zombie hordes, they’ll still have Eastern PA and the mountains to get past before they reach you!

  • 53_3

    Rusty:
    “Obama doesn’t care about your civil liberties.”
    .
    Well, I will say that he cares about mine, but since you are a practicing racist, I can see why you’d disagree.
    .
    Joe:
    As far as prosectuing those who wrote the laws, your observation does give me pause. Maybe the only thing that can be done is to drum them out of their jobs, or better yet, jerk their law licenses.
    .
    At least something good is coming of it:
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/22/us.torture.karpinski/index.html
    .
    And in this regard, I wonder if deliberately scapegoating someone has a legal or criminal recourse?

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng

    Paul, perhaps he embraces fear like the Depends he wears to avoid embarrassment when things get too scary? The teddy is only for the scary nighttime when the lights go out.
    .
    Sully has a terrific piece comparing Churchill vs Cheney.
    .
    As Britain’s very survival hung in the balance, as women and children were being killed on a daily basis and London turned into rubble, Churchill nonetheless knew that embracing torture was the equivalent of surrender to the barbarism he was fighting. The chief interrogator at Camp 020 was someone out of the movies:

    “Colonel Robin “Tin Eye” Stephens was the commander of the wartime spy prison and interrogation centre codenamed Camp 020, an ugly Victorian mansion surrounded by barbed wire on the edge of Ham Common. In the course of the war, some 500 enemy spies from 44 countries passed through Camp 020; most were interrogated, at some point, by Stephens; all but a tiny handful crumbled.
    .

    Suspects often left the interrogation cells legless with fear after an all-night grilling. An inspired amateur psychologist, Stephens used every trick, lie and bullying tactic to get what he needed; he deployed threats, drugs, drink and deceit. But he never once resorted to violence. “Figuratively,” he said, “a spy in war should be at the point of a bayonet.” But only ever figuratively. As one colleague wrote: “The Commandant obtained results without recourse to assault and battery. It was the very basis of Camp 020 procedure that nobody raised a hand against a prisoner.”
    .
    Stephens did not eschew torture out of mercy. This was no squishy liberal: the eye was made of tin, and the rest of him out of tungsten. (Indeed, he was disappointed that only 16 spies were executed during the war.) His motives were strictly practical. “Never strike a man. It is unintelligent, for the spy will give an answer to please, an answer to escape punishment. And having given a false answer, all else depends upon the false premise.”…

  • 53_3

    “He only cares what he looks and sounds like on TeeVee.”
    .
    I think that the GOP in general sees this as the only way to counter his vastly superior intellect when it comes to discussing issues that confront our country.
    .
    I remember textee yesterday equating ‘Republicans’ with ‘Americans’, and this is the biggest difference I see between politics in the ’60s and ’70s (as bad as they were) and now.

  • formerlyjames

    I might have missed something, but does anybody know why stuart z. isn’t posting?

  • 53_3

    formerly james:
    .
    I don’t know, but I hope that when he does, he respects the judgement of those of us who consider racism and hatred to not be legitimate political disourse.
    .
    But I remember he was sick. I hope he’s ok.
    .
    “And now these turkeys are tut-tutting about “torture”. That’s rich. (Of course, it’s amazing that there isn’t a Swampland post about Dems who knew about it.)”
    .
    I read the article spob, and it’s not really much on context, after all, there were democrats around in those days, some in important positions.
    .
    Also, I like the way you try to avoid mentioning the closed political atmosphere back then to try to create some kind of “equivalence” here. There just isn’t any.
    .
    That’s what Karl Rove was for. He wasn’t nicknamed ‘Turdblossom’ for nothing…

  • rustyreturns

    Fear. As Franklin said some 60+ years ago, “There is nothing to fear but fear itself.”
    .
    I have no “fear”. I do have concern about the direction that we are being taken by Obama and his incompetent and corrupt Chicago “friends”.
    .
    I have concern when a President with little to no experience what-so-ever, decides to covort with known enemies of my country. I also am concerned that instead of tackling the real problems of an economic crisis, Obama instead wants to placate every dictator and run-amok wacked out leader of known terrorist countries. What for? Self-image. Not for the protection of the citizens, no. For his perverted ideals of the far left liberal extremists who he is a puppet of billionaire likes of George Soros.
    .
    Protecting the constitution? No its progressivism run wild. A liberal agenda never witnessed before in this country. “Spread the wealth, Joe the Plumber”. That is what I will do, so says Barack the Insane Obama.
    .
    “Meet with our enemies on unconditional ground”. So says Barack the INSANE Obama.
    .
    “No, I will not pursue legal action against the former Administration…(25 hours later) “that is up to the Attorney General to decide”.
    .
    Not fearful. It is concern. I also stand ready to defend my country, and also advocate for the impeachment now of this totally incompetent President. Why want another 100 days. He has already proven he doesn’t have a clue how to run this country.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    formerlyjames
    .
    He said he was done posting because Dee and I complained about the long ass posts he was putting up one day when engaging the trolls. Its in one of the threads from last week.

  • 53_3

    “Not fearful. It is concern. I also stand ready to defend my country, and also advocate for the impeachment now of this totally incompetent President.”
    .
    Hmmm. Capital ‘dangerous’ looks like an expression of fear to me, rusty. Concern? Of course, as a Neo Nazi, you should be ‘concerned’. Clinical, I’d say…
    .
    Ready to defend your country?
    .
    Are you planning to enlist and go where the Armed Forces sends you, or are you speaking of “defending” in the context of the country you want it to be?
    .
    As for spreading the wealth, I got a tax cut, rusty. Approximately $78 / month, so I’m going to guess that most people making under 250k are bringing home more money.
    As for impeachment, I doubt that we need to worry about that…

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla
  • rose83

    I admit that if I had absolute power over Swampland no one would reply to Rusty’s posts – I almost never read them. But I’d much rather see stuart pushing rusty towards the reality-based community where people need to back up their arguments with links and evidence than this immature and pointless name-calling.
    .
    stuart, if you’re reading, please reconsider your departure. Your intellectual honesty, knowledge and intelligence make you a key member of our Swampland community. In fact, if there is such a thing as “the” Swampland commenter, it’s you.
    .
    formerlyjames, here’s the thread: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/04/20/roller-coaster-down/
    .
    I don’t know, but I hope that when he does, he respects the judgement of those of us who consider racism and hatred to not be legitimate political disourse.
    .
    53_3, As you know I certainly tend to agree with you on this issue in the sense that I believe racist discourse is usually inherently harmful. But I don’t think you are fully grasping stuart’s arguments on this subject. I’ll also add that by forcing rusty to elaborate on his comments he did a better job of showing exactly how intellectually and morally bankrupt rusty’s racist ideas are than either you or I have.
    .
    Well, if it looks so difficult to prosecute those who ordered torture according to US law with US law, why not ship them to The Hague? These were also crimes against humanity, after all.
    .
    shepherdwong, great idea.

  • 53_3

    rose83:
    .
    Actually, stuart has a point, but his approach was wrong. I know what rusty is, and am prepared to say so. He should specifically not try to correct me when I tag him or others for racist speech. It is what it is and I don’t need to be instructed by someone who clearly isn’t knowledgeable about that particular subject.
    .
    I don’t actually try to make my point better than Stuart did, anyway. What I in particular objected to was his attempts to discredit the claim that rusty is racist, and I was very much to the point that all one can go by is what one writes, which is, in a sense, (even in person) all anyone can go by when determining this.
    .
    I do agree that his loss is everyones’ loss, however…

  • rustyreturns

    rose83 Says:
    Thursday, April 23, 2009 at 1:03 pm
    “I admit that if I had absolute power over Swampland no one would reply to Rusty’s posts – I almost never read them”.
    .
    And, thank you rosey83 for at least reading “some” of my posts. I feel deeply honored.
    .
    The great thing about the 2nd Amendment, rosey. The sword does cut in both directions.
    .
    I also echo your sentiments and ask that stuartZ returns. I miss his intellecual discourse, which if very rare amongst the other self-described “leftists”, and which is non-existent amongst the far left liberal extremists represented by 53_3, Paul Dirks, sgwhite, and yes you too rosey.
    .
    Enjoy!

  • Paul-no not that one

    I “support” my country – Zeligreturns Thursday, April 23, 2009 at 12:31 pm .
    .
    So perfect.

  • 53_3

    sg:
    .
    “Any intentionally inflicted cruel or inhumane or degrading treatment, unauthorized by a court of law, perpetrated for the punishment of the victim, to extract statements from the victim, or to gratify the perpetrator.”
    .
    I’m not getting this. Is that particular ‘Napolitano’ saying that Holder should prosecute for US Law based violations, but not under those of the Geneva convention?

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Please stop feeding the trolls. You accomplish their ends, of disruption of conversation, by doing so.

  • 53_3

    actually rusty, I do read most of your comments. They are pretty short, and the racism is bared after little time passes.
    .
    I’m actually farther right than most of the other Critters here, but I know racial hatred when I see it, and your ‘clinical’ discourse is actually based on an underlying hatred.
    .
    I know that well enough, even though I can’t prove it to the likes of Stuart Zechman.
    .
    What you don’t do, however, is rise to the questions I present. And honestly,
    .
    I seriously doubt you can

  • rose83

    53_3, to be honest I’ve only skimmed those discussion between you and stuart about rusty’s racism. But he just recently called rusty out for relying on neo-nazi linked sources, and I believe for a racist comment.
    .
    IMO (and according to scientific data), most people are racist. Most people are sexist. It’s a spectrum thing. So while I’m very willing to label specific individuals and comments as racist/sexist, it’s also not a “horrible” insult because I’m not just singling out a small minority. I think that’s what some people miss when they find my comments over-the-top.
    .
    That said, I’m sure we can both agree that rusty is pretty far along that racist spectrum!
    .
    rusty, I expect you happily ignore most of my posts too. Which is why God or computer nerds invented the scroll bar.

  • 53_3

    It seems that his reasoning shepherdwong, is that there is ample cause under us law to do. That’s the message I take home from sg’s article. To see that from a FOX site is odd, however…
    .
    I think their angle is the ‘threat to US soveriegnity’ that some of those nutballs percieve that the UN presents.

  • formerlyjames

    rose, thanks for that link. I had missed it. I hope sz will return.

  • 53_3

    rose83, I agree wholeheartedly about your sentiments. Of course recently, I’ve taken to naming this hateful entity within each of us as our ‘Innner Republican’.
    .
    And pointed out yesterday that we “libruls” keep it under control as best we can, whereas others just kind of, well, let it hang.
    .
    I’m trying to do a new thing here on my part, for at least the last few weeks and that is rather than get into shouting matches with these nutballs, I call into question their reasoning, or try to pull them along by their own reasoning into contradictory conclusions, so even I can take something home from Stuart’s approach.
    .
    I trying to strike a balance between ignoring them completely, as they do say some outlandish things, but I also don’t want to let it get to the point of hijacking threads for the sake an unrelated argument, which I’ve done more than once.

  • neponset

    We pretty much did that with Iran/Contra. We knew what some of these bad players did. Nothing happened to them. And now some of them are back giving the same twisted advice, in similar advisory roles.
    .
    Sooner or later, we are going to have to stop simply “looking forward” and punish some of these people.
    .
    Otherwise, the cycle continues . . .

    It is naive to think the cycle will ever stop. The conviction of Lt. Calley didn’t stop Sgt. Hatley from murdering four Iraqis. The conviction of G. Gordon Liddy and other Watergate figures didn’t stop Bush & Co. from ignoring the law when it suited them.

    Why do you think it will be different this time?

  • 53_3

    “Which is why God or computer nerds invented the scroll bar.”
    .
    It was Al Gore!

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    53_3
    .
    I am not sure but it looks like that particular Napolitano IS calling it torture and the OLC memos bogus.

  • rustyreturns

    53_3,
    .
    One last comment to you, as I swore I would never make a serious comment back to your likes when long ago you proved to me who you are in your 3rd grade playground name calling, that I so adeptly called you out on long ago.
    .
    You like many of your friends, attempt to justify your position when you have no basis, by calling someone of a differing opinion a “racist”. Simply to attempt to justify your inept position. I do not fall for your little liberal tactics.
    .
    You have never proposed a serious question to me or any other more conservative commenter on this site, but rather comment in silly and mundane one or two sentence trite comments. Your comments are exclusively just your way to think you may make someone else have a laugh, at the other commenters expense. So do not lecture me on philosphical differences that you may have my friend. It truly falls on deaf ears, and always will.
    .
    As I have said, and will keep saying it. You only prove my point about the far left liberal progressives such as MoveOn.Org, Daily Kos, Code Pinkos, and other various far left loons.

  • gysgt213

    WTF is going on with comments.

  • 53_3

    That is what I see too, sg. Is this a case of honesty on the part of FOX?
    .
    I’m not sure. There must be an angle, here.

  • Art Pepper

    AF Col. Steven Kleinman was on Maddow yesterday, arguing that torture techniques developed by Chinese Communists do not make for good interrogations – at least if your goal is to get accurate information.
    .
    Liberal pinko commie Air Force colonels!!

  • 53_3

    Art, did you see Maddow with Phillip Zelikow yestiddy?
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#30335366

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Racist Rusty’s true nature was revealed way back during the primary when Obama made his ‘bitter’ comment. He put up a long post extolling the virtues of the Northern European stock of his ancestors and compared them to all the rap-loving drug dealing City dwellers. It didn’t survive the WordPress transfer or I’d link to it.
    .
    He’s usally careful but sometimes he lets some real whoppers slip by.

  • formerlyjames

    gunny, a few days ago I had a problem in serious delay in posting, but not now. I have no idea why it affects some sometimes and not others. It will probably correct eventually.

  • Art Pepper

    Yes! Now we know why the GOP was so frightened of having the memos declassified. The trickle of information is turning into a flood.
    .
    Maddow: “The law in America is bigger than the presidency.” If only more people in the Beltway media understood this rather basic principle.

  • shepherdwong

    “It seems that his reasoning shepherdwong, is that there is ample cause under us law to do.”
    .
    Of course there is, Joe is just channeling the authoritarians’ rear-guard action. Once the point has taken hold that some of those underlings who perpetrated the torture are doing hard time for it, there will be no cover for those who ordered them to do it.
    .
    Still, I would love to see our modern day Torquemadas standing trial for torture in a Spanish dock. More sweetly ironic even than Jane Harman on the bad end of an NSA wiretap.

  • 53_3

    PD:
    .
    I’ve seen him reveal that yellow streak many times. He’s just on ‘good behavior’ now, though, but behind that calm reason lies hate.

  • 53_3

    Guess that won’t happen shep. But these guys definitely do have an interest in keeping the torture picture murkey.
    .
    Their necks are on the line.
    .
    I personally feel that if we actually knew what these scoundrels did during their stay in power, we might find that the torture issue is just a minor sideline for them. A walk in the park after the real dirty work, so to speak.

  • shepherdwong

    “Guess that won’t happen shep.”
    .
    No one expects the Spanish Inquisition. (Sorry)

  • formerlyjames

    While I would prefer adjudication in the US, the Spanish do have long experience dealing with fascists. Maybe that is why it is one of the most liberal nations now.

  • spob

    Guys, I know it’s hard. You so desperately want Bush guys to be frogmarched. But it ain’t gonna happen. You see, Obama, speaking unscripted screwed the pooch.
    .
    http://www.redstate.com/brianfaughnan/2009/04/23/did-obama-accidentally-re-open-show-trial-question/

  • shepherdwong

    “You so desperately want Bush guys to be frogmarched. But it ain’t gonna happen.”
    .
    Eh, doesn’t really matter at this point. The whole world will know what they did and why: to try to cover-up lying the country into a preordained, illegal war. They’ll be pariahs everywhere except their closest circles of authoritarian thugs, afraid to even leave the country for fear of something much better than the justice they themselves practiced.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Ed Morrissey, Eric Ericson and Jonah Goldberg must get really tired……….from pulling the string of their puppets every day. But you gotta admit that they are VERY effective.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    spob,
    Your friends at RedState have it exactly backwards. Obama is genuinely uninterested in show-trials or hashing through the past UNLESS…….
    .
    By leaving the possibilty open-ended he can effectively shut down any efforts to undermine him from within the career-service crew.

  • sacredh

    What the HELL do I have to do to get throw in with 53_3, PD, sgw and rose83 earn the label as far left liberal extremists?

  • sacredh

    I’m so mad I left “and” out after rose83. Gee whiz folks…I was a member of the SDS, the ACLU and the Society of Separationists when I was in my teens! Somebody had better acknowledge my leftist rantings or else I’m going to go cut the grass.

  • 53_3

    “You so desperately want Bush guys to be frogmarched.”
    .
    Your article doesn’t really do much other than give an opionion on the things that transpired. The agents may indeed have been “just doing their jobs”, but I think Holder is talking about the decision-makers. No pooch screwing seen except in your eyes, and of course, the whole fart-bubble biting crowd you hang with.
    .
    Guess Gates is reluctantly going along too…

  • 53_3

    “What the HELL do I have to do to get throw in with 53_3, PD, sgw and rose83 earn the label as far left liberal extremists?”
    .
    That’s ok, sacred. Maybe spob won’t invite you to our parties, but we will!
    .
    One of the funniest activities we have planned is a pigtrough, into which a hose sticking into the water is farted in from behind a curtain. Then we lets the rightwingers bite ‘em. Big prize for who pops the most fartbubbles.

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng

    sacredh, you are a far left liberal extremist just like 53_3, PD, sgw and rose83, and Larry Johnson of LGF.
    .
    Feel better now?

  • fedupwithswampland

    or example, were the Justice Department to prosecute the C.I.A. interrogators who carried out the policies — which President Obama and Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. have repeatedly said will not happen — the interrogators could say that they relied on the Justice Department’s advice that the program was legal.

    This is just asinine. Please show me one single instance where “My lawyer told me it was OK, Judge” has worked as a criminal defense. It is irrelevant.

  • 53_3

    As a matter of fact, sacredh, your credentials are such that we think you should judge the winner of the wingnut fart bubble biting contest! After all, your creds are top drawer!

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng

    53_3 -will there be video?

  • sacredh

    I don’t know who Larry Johnson of LGF is, but yes, I do feel better. I still have to cut the grass though. 53_3: Count me in for the pigtrough festivities. I’ve been known to peel the paint off of the wall on occassion.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    sacredh
    .
    You are definitely a member in good standing. Don’t worry, just call the trolls a few names and or say President Obama is the bestest President ever, wayyyyyyyyyy better than Reagan. I am sure the epiteths will flow after that.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    In case anyone needs a lesson in doublespeak heres a double-plus-good example from Harry Reid.
    .
    I think it would be very unwise, from my perspective, to start having commissions, boards, and tribunals until we find out what the facts are.
    .
    He has this brilliant idea that the same Senate intelligence comittee that was briefed on the program in the first place, is the perfect venue to “out what the facts are” now.
    .
    http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/04/23/1905071.aspx

  • kathy

    The idea of going through the circus ensuing from publicly investigating and prosecuting any of the actors, whether originators or agents, makes me physically ill. But I don’t see a way to avoid it. How can we hold others accountable and not ourselves. It sounds so much like the Church not wanting to hold accountable priests who abused children, and it’s not any more defensible. As if making it known was a worse sin than the offense itself.
    .
    Nuremberg is such an inconvenient precedent.
    .
    I heard Howard Feinman say the WH had lost control of this, but I can’t help but think Obama knew what he was doing. Too much of a constitutional scholar not to know this was going to be Holder’s call. He probably really doesn’t want to prosecute CIA officers, but he’s now on record about that, and so his fingerprints aren’t going to be on the eventual investigation – which is probably important considering other essential business on his plate.

  • sacredh

    kathy: I’ve been saying for awhile that Obama has been goading the RWers into hanging themselves with their own words. The fools are giving interviews defending torture and their “legal” justification for it. He played them like a fiddle when he said they couldn’t listen to Limbaugh and it was THEM that turned it into front page news for weeks. They might think they’re getting brownie points with the wingnuts, but they’re laying the foundations for their own trials. I keep asking if they can possibly be that stupid and it seems that they can’t shout “YES!” loud enough.

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng

    sacreh – oops, it’s Charles not Larry Johnson. My bad. Charles Johnson is (or was) a member in good standing of the wingiest of the RW wingnuts-o-sphere who, of late, is pissing them off because he thinks Beck is going too far. Here’s a nice piece from benen: A VOICE IN THE WILDERNESS: Johnson really angered some of his colleagues when he said “too many on the right are now suffering from Obama Derangement Syndrome,” an observation that led to “meltdowns” in LGF comment threads, and “a barrage of hate mail that shows no sign of letting up.”

    After having read Little Green Footballs over the years, I didn’t expect it to be one of the sites urging conservatives to pull back from the fringes and be more responsible. It’s a pleasant surprise.

  • kathy

    Rose – thanks for the link about Stuart (and thanks formerly for asking). I missed it too. While I agree that feeding Rusty is futile and gets us OT I occasionally fall into it myself.
    .
    Stuart. I hope you’ll return. Most of us get our motives misinterpreted here from time to time. Doesn’t feel good, to be sure. But I’d be very disappointed not to hear from you again, and also disappointed that indirectly Rusty prompted such a significant loss to the Swamp.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Just FYI this is Article II of the Conventions Against Torture.
    .
    http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm
    .

    1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
    .
    2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
    .
    3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

  • formerlyjames

    PD, that Reid quote is so funny. We can’t have a commission until we have the facts. We can’t have the facts until we have a commission. Haven’t seen the cliched “Catch-22″ used lately, but it does apply here.

  • spob
  • sacredh

    wvng: I had visited that site before. I live in a rural conservative area so of course I have some wingnut friends. Maybe I should say had. I showed up at a bonfire last weekend with an Obama sweatshirt on and was asked to either take it off or leave. It was 55 degrees out so I left. Our recent conversations invariably end with FY, so I’m pretty sure I’m no longer welcome. No pull back from the fringe in their future I’m afraid. They’re betting their sanity on 2010.

  • 53_3

    LGF said back off?
    .
    Together with the article sg linked to from FOX on the torture issue, and a couple I saw last week, is it even possible to venture that voices of sanity are being raised inside that snakepit?
    .
    sacredh, wvng:
    .
    You’ll need to use a chemical hose, then. Need good, stong bubble action, and leaks won’t do. We could use webcams, couldn’t we (kaff, kaff)…

  • rose83

    What the HELL do I have to do to get throw in with 53_3, PD, sgw and rose83 earn the label as far left liberal extremists?
    .
    sacredh, maybe you’re such an extremist he can’t mention your name, like Voldemort.

  • sacredh

    I somehow missed SZ’s departure. What is that about? I hope it’s not a permanent exit. SZ did all the research I’m to lazy to do.

  • kathy

    Sacredh – it’s amazing, isn’t it, that the Republicans have now turned themselves into the “torture party.” I notice that Obama’s approval has gone up to 65% in gallup today.
    .
    The interesting thing to me is to wonder how long it will take for a few on the right to wake up and realize torture is indefensible.
    Like Shepherd Smith – who would have guessed it?
    .
    We are America, we don’t torture! And the moment that is not the case, I want off the train! This government is of, by, and for the people — that means it’s mine. That means — I’m not saying what is torture, and what is not torture, but I’m saying, whatever it is, you don’t do it for me!”
    .
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/22/shepard-smith-torture_n_190350.html

  • sacredh

    rose83: I’m still laughing and choking over that one. Thanks. As a Harry Potter fan, that hit the mark.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    53_3
    .
    The truth is Charles Johnson SPAWNED some of the most wingnutiest extremist blogs on the net including Atlas Shrugs which led the birther movement most of last year over President Obama’s birth certificate. Here is a rundown in the Washington Independent that gives the whole sequence of how he came to be on the outs with them and turning over a “somewhat” more reasonable voice. Make no mistake though, he is still vitriolic towards Obama.
    .
    http://washingtonindependent.com/39629/civil-war-raging-in-right-wing-blogosphere

  • 53_3

    ” It was 55 degrees out so I left.”
    .
    Hopefully, you have an Obama tat.
    .
    It appears that #2 in the UNHCR CAT is probably the one most commonly abused by Cheney – that is the primary motivation for the torture agenda.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    spob is again too ignorant to realize that the folks here agree, if Democrats were complicit then they should be held just as accountable. It isn’t about whose team you’re on. Its about doing what’s right. Maybe if he thought about if for ten muinutes, he’d realize just how morally bankrupt he appears by defending torture at all costs.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    And don’t forget how obvious it is that the whole reason the Dems on the intelligence commitees were briefed is to provide cover when the $hi^ inevitably hit the fan.
    .
    We don’t care. Torture is still wrong.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Ruh Roh, Cheney has lost the support of the civil libertarians at Reason, now there might be hell to pay.
    .
    http://reason.com/news/show/133047.html
    .
    Mind you they have been fully supporting the Republicans of late but I think this was finally just too much for them to overlook.

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng

    I have a strong impression that the torture divide is further dividing the remaining “permanent repuglican majority” into not totally insane and totally insane. It is a remarkable thing to watch.
    .
    Speaking of watching, C&L flagged a fascinating torture exchange on the Factor: ‘Why are you scared of the facts?’ Bill O’Reilly finally meets his match in Ellis Henican. That would be Fox News Analyst Ellis Henican.
    .
    I rarely choose to watch Faux, and very very rarely O’Reilly, just as I don’t choose to watch schoolyard bullies and people yelling on street corners or people yelling at piles of teabags. But the video at the link is fascinating. C&L said: And frankly, he did as well I’ve ever seen anyone do in the canned, no-win setup that is The O’Reilly Factor. He went toe-to-toe with O’Reilly on the factual points — and in fact started scoring so well that O’Reilly was reduced to blurting out increasingly outrageous pronouncements.
    .
    And I wondered anew why anyone would subject themselves to this vile excuse for a human being? He is simply a thug.

  • http://privcorr.blogspot.com/ wvng

    PD: And don’t forget how obvious it is that the whole reason the Dems on the intelligence commitees were briefed is to provide cover when the $hi^ inevitably hit the fan. Also don’t forget how restrictive those briefings are – with no staff, no notes, no consultation, no followup.
    .
    I’m not excusing them, but it is one thing to craft a policy like this with the full resources of the federal government at hand, and quite another to receive a briefing for which you have none of those resources to rely on.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Watch out for exploding wingnut heads!
    .
    http://people-press.org/report/509/obama-at-100-days

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    wvng
    .
    Thanks for that link. Ellis Henican out O’Reillyed O’Reilly!

  • http://tinselwing.wordpress.com/ nicteis

    Note the byline on Klein’s NYT link: it’s Charlie Savage. There are few straighter shooters in journalism. If his sources tell him it won’t be easy to secure convictions for the torture lawyers, that’s a real indication that it won’t be a walk in the park. No matter how open and shut it seems to those of us who never left the no-torture community.

    But so be it. Our treaties require us to investigate and prosecute; they don’t require us to convict. And perhaps Savage’s sources are more cognizant of the arguments they’ve been hearing, than of the more cogent arguments a lawyer from the no-torture community could make.

  • sacredh

    kathy: It is amazing that they’re defending torture as a policy. It seems like they’re dropping any pretense now that we stand for anything other than anything goes. With Obama’s approval rating, his stand against torture and the republicans defense of torture, I wouldn’t count on them waking up en masse anytime soon. I think they’ll ride that car right off the cliff and then look surprised when it crashes. They’re just not getting it. It’s like trying to teach your dog algebra.

  • spob

    Well, I think that there is something we can all agree on. O’Reilly is an arrogant blowhard and not a very bright one. Do you think that if he and Keith Olbermann ever bumped into each other, the world would explode from that much matter hitting that much anti-matter?

  • jcapan

    Rose: Thanks for lending your voice to the “bring back Stuart” brigade. As an irregular commenter/reader, I’ll 2nd that, though I hope it’s NOT to engage Rus & co. As I said the other day, there was a time that QH et al were almost always ignored. Now they seem to play a principal role here, which is one reason why this flag burning dirty hippy in Japan strives to avoid engagement. Somehow engaging with fascists just doesn’t appeal.
    ~
    While I welcome sane conservative viewpoints (the few, the precious few), the value of the Swamp, IMO, has always been the debate between the centrists (faux liberals) and the left. Getting tangled up in the pointless muck of engaging the wingnut-R is beneath Stuart, and all of us populating the reality-based community. And Stu, if you are reading, tell me you’re not so fragile that you allow, what, two commenters who criticized you to drive you away!?

  • 53_3

    “spob is again too ignorant to realize that the folks here agree, if Democrats were complicit then they should be held just as accountable”
    .
    In science, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and likewise, I don’t think the existance of Dems in the same halls the former Administration haunted is any evidence of their complicity.
    .
    It’s that association-by-guilt thing, ya know…

  • 53_3

    sg:
    .
    It’s strange to watch the reactions of various right wing groups when confronted with their own tendancies toward excesses. That article was one of the most interesting reads in a while and I can see why Charles Johnson might be pillorized by his peers.
    .
    If I was right wing, he’d have some of the attributes I’d like to emulate, and criticizing Obama for being “big governement” isn’t something I feel is a low blow – it’s consistant with conservative philosophy and so is the taxation issue.
    .
    I’ve always contended that hate doesn’t need to be a part of the conservative agenda, and he certainly seems to be one who might agree with that. As a matter of fact, even though he’s on the opposite side of the faultline, he looks, at least at this glance, to adhere to that idea too.

  • 53_3

    jcapan:
    .
    As much as he dislikes my position on the matters I’ve debated with him, I want him back too. Put me down in the ‘bring back Stuart’ category too!

  • sacredh

    Put me in the “bring back SZ” column too. I’ve never debated SZ, or anyone else for that matter, but I enjoyed his posts. I’m just too lazy to research stuff. I read a good bit but I don’t know how to provide links. Maybe when the new computer comes in two weeks I’ll try to learn. Maybe not though.

  • 53_3

    “…But so be it. Our treaties require us to investigate and prosecute; they don’t require us to convict.”
    .
    This is not something I knew, and if it is indeed true, then it appears we must try them.

  • dencal26

    In order to save American lives Democrat Presidents have done the following
    Drop Atomic Bombs on Civilians
    Firebomb Dresden resulting in 200,000 civilian deaths
    Maintain Sanctions on Iraq that killed 500,000 Iraqi Kids according to UNICEF and Secretary Albright
    And last week to save ONE American life Obama shot 3 Somalian Teens in the head even though no pirates had ever killed any hostage.

    But waterboard a few known terrorists to save thousands or tens of thousands is wrong? Why?

  • dencal26

    Obama’s intelligence director, Dennis Blair, echoed this argument in a memo, writing, “High-value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the Al Qaeda organization that was attacking this country.”

  • rustyreturns

    dencal26 Says:
    Thursday, April 23, 2009 at 6:40 pm
    “But waterboard a few known terrorists to save thousands or tens of thousands is wrong? Why?”
    .
    I know dencal26, it is difficult for people who follow the liberal progressive values of most democrats, and all of the nutball liberals on this site in specific to comprehend that Terrorism is real. They justify their stand on the so-called “torture” memo, as being a crime against humanity. When in fact the animals who were supposedly tortured would never give it a second eyeball blink to chop each and everyone of their heads off with their Islamic sword of the 12th Imman to hasten the return of their “Messiah”.
    .
    This is what “politically correct” has brought us to in America. This is what the far left extremists believe to be their utopian world of “anything goes” culture, and you accept what they want no matter how twisted the ideal is or you are a “non-conformist neo-con”.
    .
    It is a liberal world where your heritage is mocked, and you are called a “racist” if you even question one of their bizzare comments. If you challenge a totally in-experienced, characterless President whose only claim to fame is a speech he gave in 2002 to end the War in Iraq.
    .
    They mocked people, not just from the right, but the middle and a few from the left who believe in conservative fiscal spending, and a government that does not control its people, but the people control the government. People who believe you only spend what your can realistically tax, and if you do not have the money in the bank then your entitlement program will just have to wait.
    .
    The next four years will be a major defining point in American history without a doubt. Not because less than 54% of Americans voted into office the first Black man as President. It is because they voted into office the most extreme far left socialist loving President this country has ever seen.
    .
    Before Obama leaves office, the average American will be paying over 50% of his or her hard earned dollars to pay for his socialist programs. Capitalism will be stripped to the bare minimum of the words free enterprise. Government will control what you can do, say, eat, drink or think. 1984, the sci-fi book never looked so plausible before Barack Obama. “Nationalization” of everything we know to further the “global world economy”, to make America a sub-Nation in the “global community”. They hate everything America has stood for, what our fore-fathers fought and died for. Orwell’s “Big Brother” has Obama creating the United States of America into his version of Oceania.
    .
    But, I have faith in America. I believe once they see what Obama’s agenda is all about. How he was raised by communist all of his life and adopted their ideals. We can rid our country of this slime, and show him the road back to whatever hole he climbed out of in corrupt Chicago. Jeremiah Wright was a lightbulb that a few people saw flicker. But I am confident that Obama as he has proven so far, will enrage the multitude. It will not take much longer before you see millions in the streets calling for the first impeachment of our first black President.
    .
    God forbid another attack, but if there is one, Obama’s ivory tower will come tumbling down all around him and the rest of the kooks on this site who back him now.

  • flacidcasual

    Nice crystal ball work rusty. Has Cheney taken up tarot cards and given you your own personal reading? Or maybe John Bolton has seen Venus lining up with Mars whilst penning his weekly astrology column. Or are you the next Nostradamus? When will the world end rusty, when?

  • Paul-no not that one

    I hope Zeligreturns had a Kleenex handy to dry his tears while writing that.

  • iggydwonderllama

    Rusty. Torture is worse than killing. It’s that simple.

  • sonoftherevolution

    Over this there can be no democrat-republican schism over such an unamerican issue of torture. No defense throw the bastards over now! Do not allow it to be an issue! It has progressed to far already end it now!

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