The Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld Fallacy

So does Petraeus think that we fell down on the job because German spies were executed summarily during WWII? Or what about the “do as I say, not as I do” convictions of Germans at Nuremberg for unrestricted submarine warfare?
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It’s easy playing Jeopardy at home. Petraeus didn’t have to make decisions about trying to get actionable intelligence from animals like KSM and others.
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Waterboarding and the insect in a box just ain’t that big a deal. Gotta love the left, more worked about the waterboarding of KSM than they were about Iraqi soldiers/guerrilas feigning surrender and then killing US servicemen.

Michael Scherer and the press releases writers which Scherer dutifully cites from the “Senate Armed Forces Committee” think that merely threatening to place a harmless insect near a committed terrorist is “torture”. They also think that placing a pair of panties over the head of a terrorist is “torture”. They also think ….

The pro torturists on the right are going to drive their party right off the rails. The ironic thing is they will now label Petraeus as a flaming liberal because he is against torture after worshipping him for the last two years because of the surge. It doesn’t matter with the pro torturists who you are or what kind of credibility you have on the issue. If you are against torture then you aren’t a patriot in their world. A world where they are afraid of their own shadow. I can’t wait till we get more light shined on this sorry era of our nation’s history.

Petraeus didn’t have to make decisions about trying to get actionable intelligence from animals like KSM and others.
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It’s nice to see MR GI Joe Spongebob second guessing the Commander of the U.S. Central Command from the comfort of his armchair and accusing the general of “Playing Jeopardy at home.”
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I think my irono-meter just pegged……

It’s easy playing Jeopardy at home. Petraeus didn’t have to make decisions about trying to get actionable intelligence from animals like KSM and others.
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No, spob, he and others just had to live with the results . . .
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I’m going to ask the same question I did in a previous thread, spob.
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Have you EVER had ANY of your own skin in the game WRT war at ANY time, spob?
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To paraphrase what you said above, it’s easy playing “Jack Bauer” at home, jerk.

Gunny,
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Wherever your are, I tag off to you to take a shot at these two clowns.
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It’s really too easy . . . but it does raise my blood pressure a tad too much to do so.

I’ve always thought it’s ironic how the right claims to have the morally correct view on social issues, but then they go and abandon all ethics when it comes to warfare and domestic criminals. They adopt this macho no-mercy take-no-prisoners approach, and if you disagree then you are a weakling p*ssy. It makes them (and spob and textee) seem like schoolyard bullies.

Human dignity is a right, not a privilege that gets revoked as soon as you make the tiniest (or even not so tiny) mistake. An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.

The Republican party is now “the party of torture”. Thats gotta suck. Try defending that on the election circuit. You bet your ass if your govt. is willing to do this to other citizens, it is willing to do it to its own.

SSG noted
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….The ironic thing is they will now label Petraeus as a flaming liberal because he is against torture after worshiping him for the last two years because of the surge.
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The Right and the GOP are following in the footsteps of the Black Panther Party. The Panthers had period purges of members wo were not true to the cause. At one point, only Eldridge Cleaver and one other member was left in the party.
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The GOP is going to be a historical artifact, like the Panthers, if spob and others have their way.

Perhaps one of the sickest aspects to this is that, apparently, the interrogators, at the urging of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, were actually trying to extract real intelligence using techniques that they should have known were designed solely to terrorize and elicit false confessions.

I gotta say, these guys (Bush/Cheney/Rummy and their ilk) come off like a bunch of ignorant sadists in this whole sorry episode. What a proud 8 years.

shepherdwong,
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Oh, they knew . . . they knew EXACTLY what the methods were designed to do.
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These people didn’t just come to the party after the end of the Cold War, they lived through the thick of it. They were VERY familiar with the KGB and Chinese intelligence services and their tactics.
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I’ve always felt that therre was some admiration on their part for the effectiveness of what their adversaries did with all of this.

The biggest cowards in this whole mess are the torture defenders. The terrorist have you so frightened that you defend and applaud torture sanctioned by our government and performed by agents of that government. And then you call yourselves the true patriots. In reality, you’re nothing but a bunch of WATBs with sadistic tendencies…only you’re too frightened to perform acts of sadism yourself – because you might get in trouble with the law – so you get off on the fact that our government did it for you.

Being against US government sanctioned torture should be bi-partisan position held by most, nay, ALL Americans. The fact that there is a loud and proud minority out there who think what we did was A-OK is very, very disturbing. And you wonder why the DHS is concerned about domestic extremists?

..come off like a bunch of ignorant sadists in this whole sorry episode…
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spinmd,
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Don’t believe for an instant that they were in any way ignorant of what they were doing. You’re doing them a favor by thinking that.

spob: So basically what you’re saying is … “General Petraeus or General Betray Us”?
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I love the fact that Petraeus, Gates, Powell, and McCain are WAYYYYYY too liberal for the GOP. Basically the only people pure enough for the party are Cheney and, um, maybe Pol Pot.

I do not condone torture, but on the same hand I also do not condone the “torture” that the Islamic Extremist, otherwise known as the Taliban and al-Qaeda profess upon their own people, and anyone unlucky enough to be taken as a captured prisoner of them. I also do not condone the bombing of the two World Trade Towers where over 3,000 Americans and others lost their lives. I do not condone the beheading of anyone who resists their doctrine or way of life. The rape of their women and children.
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This is a War people. A dirty, lousy war against “un-repentent” extremists, who have professed their “jihad” to “kill the American satan and its people”. It is a war where the Islamic Extremists want the total destruction of not only the US, but anything non-Muslim.
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You can play the game of stating how terrible it is to “torture” some deviant and blood thirsty people who want to kill you. You can also use the golden rule as your defense. But, I for one WILL protect my family against these types of extremists. If the interrogation techniques are abhorant to the leftist in our own country, then my stock-pilling of ammo for the day when they do come to our own soil to exact revenge for “Allah” shall be met with my guns and bullets to defend myself and my family.
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May the 12th Iman rot in hell.
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http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org/12th-imam.htm
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And you nutballs want to debate with this?? This is what is un-believeable.

For some reason the phrase bet-wetter comes to mind. Though I can’t quite put my finger on why…..
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Related:
Im not sure how much credence to put in the latest McClatchy article. It almost seems too pat. This link is relevant though:
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http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2008/0801.beers.html

Oh, cut the crap, Rusty!
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I’m going to repeat the question I asked YOU specifically on a previous thread that was never answered: Have you EVER had ANY of your own skin in the game WRT war at ANY time?
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Or was that something that just never entered into your “career planning” when you were the right age to do so?
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Oh, and I wouldn’t go throwing around the “nutball” label too much, if I were you. We’re not the ones shivering under our beds, waiting for the invasion.

Were the States able to not torture people back in WWII when the Germans were putting people in ovens and the Japanese were using people for bayonet practice?

Vietnam dear afguy. VIETNAM. And it was the same limey liberals then, that I see here today that are defending the Islamic Extremists as Jane Fonda defended the communist Vietnamese.
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SO put that in your pot-pipe and smoke your brains out.

Sorry, Rusty, I don’t do pot and I was in Thailand during that period. I didn’t like what Jane did but defend her right to do so.
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It’s what this country is about.

Rusty is less affected by his VietNam experience than he is by his relative isolation in Wetern PA. If you never encounter anyone the least bit unlike you, it’s a lot easier to conjure villianous visions of what those scary Muslims must have in mind.
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Rusty should get out more. It would do him good.

Mr. Scherer is on a roll! This is the very best journalism I have ever seen from him! Go Michael Go! Sic ‘em!

Dear Mr. Scherer,
I am sorry to be a stickler but I have to point this out.

“This is the sort of paragraph that can be printed on THE tombstone of this entire chapter of U.S. history.”

I am sorry, but I can’t take any article (or argument seriously) if there isn’t proper sentence structure. Sadly, you’re not alone. Mr. Klein also makes mistakes, particularly with names of foreign leaders (e.g. Calling Mexico’s President “Calderone” instead of Calderón and Israeli Foreign Minister “Barack” instead of Barak). I have yet to find mistakes on Karen Tumulty’s posts, so there is still hope.

It might be a good idea to stop twittering so much and focus instead on syntax. I know you’re a good journalist, but not having a copy editor and making simple mistakes like the one above seriously diminishes your credibility.

It’s still more Vut & paste than it is shoe-lea

……………If the interrogation techniques are abhorrent to the leftist in our own country, then my stock-piling of ammo for the day when they do come to our own soil to exact revenge for “Allah” shall be met with my guns and bullets to defend myself and my family.
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That’s a tactic for a country invading the US. The bigger risk is a small group or group attacking a target in the US. I have stated before, the Islamists are not going to run across the dessert then swim across the ocean to attack the US in droves. I suspect that there is enough weaponry in urban, suburban, and rural areas to take care of any Islamist foolish enough to attempt the type of attack you envision.
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One concern is how many uninvolved folks get tortured in an effort to find the bad guys? Once the innocent are tortured, you have just lost allies among their friends and family, and may convert an innocent into a terrorist.
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No one doubts that there are people who want an Islamic empire and death to infidels. The question is how sure are you that those are the only folks caught in your net?
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The problem extends beyond the Middle East. How do you deal with the Mexican drug cartels and the Somali pirates? We can grab up a lot of people and torture them for answers. If the government is set free to torture, how soon will it be before the government decides that people who disagree with it’s policies are traitors and take action against them?
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Once you make torture the status quo, you are telling government that it can do whatever it needs to do to insure national security. That could include imprisoning people who give aid and comfort to the enemies of the US by telling those enemies that the US President is weak. Dick Cheney could be in trouble.

If you never encounter anyone the least bit unlike you, it’s a lot easier to conjure villianous visions…
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Of course, that helps explain a lot of Middle Eastern terrorist recriutment as well, I suppose.

Torture will not make any friends overseas, and today, international cooperation is really necessary to solve some of the most pressing issues in the world such as malaria, measles, and malnutrition. The Borgen Project has good info on the estimated cost of ending global poverty:

$30 billion: Annual shortfall to end world hunger.

$550 billion: U.S. Defense budget.

(Damn. Gotta figure out how that’s happening.)
It’s still more cut & paste than it is shoe-leather reporting, but at least it’s about something substantial rather than troll-parroting or People Magazine irrelevance.

Emil. You are right. I am on your side. And I do not forgive the mistakes I make regularly, when I blog quickly between tasks without an editor. The has been fixed.

“Mr. Scherer is on a roll! This is the very best journalism I have ever seen from him! Go Michael Go! Sic ‘em!”

We get on Michael’s case a lot but I think his moral compass is spot-on with regard to this story. But I hate to give him too much credit for that because the fact that our government ordered/sanctioned/justified torture and made it the official practice of our intelligence services should offend all Americans. Sadly, it does not. (see rusty, spob, textee, and just about anybody who identifies as a “conservative”)

Remember my fellow commenters, the term is now “pro torturists”. It accurately describes those who are scared of their own shadow who think owning a gun will end terrorism, who think they will have any ability at all to stop a terrorist attack should one be carried out as long as they have some ammo. I swear I watch every episode of 24 and just by virtue of the fact that there is an attack every hour on the hour on the show, to me, would prove to the wingnuts that the show isn’t realistic. Yet you would be hard pressed to have a conversation about torture and not see them invoke the name “Jack Bauer”. I can’t wait for them to say that police officers should be able to torture when looking for a serial killer too.

Yes, I disagree with John McCain and Petraeus on this issue. McCain’s argument borders on the silly. If we give non-combatants Geneva Conventions treatment, then these people will give our guys a break. Of course, if we say that, no matter what, we will observe these rules, then what incentive is there for the other guys to treat our guys humanely?
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Petraeus did not have to deal with dealing with possible attacks on US soil. Thus the Jeopardy comment. Divorcing these decisions from the pressure cooker of post-9/11 is completely unfair, no matter what you think of these techniques.
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rmrd, your concerns about the spread of torture (or whatever you want to call these techniques) are valid, but given the rareness and hand-wringing associated with these techniques, I don’t see that a problem.
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afguy, I am a Desert Storm vet==no claim of war hero status, since I was in the Navy.
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My first points about Petraeus are, of course, unmet.

@sgwhite

Don’t forget that Cuban paratroopers, backed by the Soviets, invaded the heartland back in the 80s and were stopped only by that brave band of young patriots – the Wolverines. Stop poking fun at rusty and folks like him for trying to defend our nation from the coming Muslim horde. If your line of thinking prevailed in the 1980s, then Patrick Swayze and Jennifer Grey would have ended up in the Cuban prison camp with their parents as opposed to fighting a guerilla war for the freedom of our nation. And if that happened, nobody would have been around to prevent Baby from being put in the corner. Heck, there wouldn’t have even been a Baby to put in the corner.

Cheney and Congressional Republicans are trying to defend this? This has truly become a surreal debate…

http://www.political-buzz.com/

ogliberal
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Even the Wolverines didn’t torture bro.
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lol

Yes, “pro-torturists” sorta goes with “pro-abortionists”, “pro-gay/lesbian marriage”, “pro-politically correctness”, “pro-Islamic Extremists”, “pro-Socialism”, “pro-Big Government”, and so on and so on…
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I’m still waiting for the “Change We Can Believe In” to start!
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Its been almost 100 days now, when does the Depression/Recession end?
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But, why waste a good crisis to get your “pro-liberal” agenda put through on the backs of the working class Americans.
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Did Geithner find that 100 Billion from the TARP that he and Obama neglected to look out after that is missing now? I just wonder how many millions went to ACORN, the “pro-Low Income Housing” ACORN group? How many other millions are going to the other far left liberal extremists in our country are getting?
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/03/10/obama-administration-struggling-live-transparency-pledges/
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Yes indeed, “Change we can believe in!!!”

Petraeus did not have to deal with dealing with possible attacks on US soil.
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Funny, that’s not what all the people who insisted we have to fight them over there so we aren’t fighting them over here were saying….

Let them joke spob. That is all the liberals in this country are good for, telling jokes. Hell even Obama would rather be on Jay Leno than work on the economic crisis. But, what is a good publicity whore to do? Has Obama been on TeeVee more than Paris Hilton yet? I think I remember a time when you couldn’t take a 2nd breath without seeing her on TeeVee all the time.
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I’m guessing they never thought they would see a “Pirate” being tried in a US Court for the first time in over 100 years would happen either.

Interesting article about what other governments knew regarding the torture of their citizens in U.S. custody. This article specifically mentions Britain and MI5…

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090422/ap_on_re_eu/eu_britain_guantanamo

PD’s post has superficial appeal, but of course fails to stand up to serious analysis. No one thought that the US was going to escape serious terrorist attacks post-9/11–and that’s not what Petraeus was dealing with. Nice try SFB.
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As for the Red Dawn example, the minute American civilians were murdered, all bets would be off. Does anyone seriously criticize the Soviet Union for not playing by Marquess of Queensbury rules against the Germans in WWII?

Yes indeed, “Change we can believe in!!!”
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Yes, Rusty . . . a “change of subject we can believe in”.

I seem to remember reading in several different books about the whole sale rape of women of all ages in Germany and China committed by the invading Russian troops. I would hope you aren’t advocating that was okay too spob.

………I’m guessing they never thought they would see a “Pirate” being tried in a US Court for the first time in over 100 years would happen either.
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The pirate was captured on Obama’s watch.
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Pirates were operating during GW’s tenture as well.
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Everyone here needs to read this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/20/AR2009042002818.html

Divorcing these decisions from the pressure cooker of post-9/11 is completely unfair, no matter what you think of these techniques.
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spob,
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We elect people we believe are capable of dealing with crises in a fair and level-headed way. We aren’t voting for a grade school class president!
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As for being unfair, let’s just say the recent reports that our elected officials used 9/11 and “enhanced interrogation techniques” to force a link between that event and a country that had no real role in it to justify an invasion would seem to be an imminently fair question of the decision-making.

apollyon I read your article and raise you…
http://www.slate.com/id/2216601/

hardly, queencersei, what I am talking about are the savage battles fought between Russian and German military units–clearly, the Russians broke a ton of rules, but does anyone care?
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I get a lot more worked up about the strip search that’s at the Supreme Court than what happened to KSM.
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Oh and by the way, who got pwned for citing that ridiculous WaPo article that came out a week or so ago that claimed that there was no benefit to the interrogation techniques. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
That was up there with numbskull sgwhite trying to defend Obama’s descent into Quayle territory with his “Austrian” comment.
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pwned

Truly a more objective source couldn’t be found……snicker…..
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123241445616196157.html

who got pwned?
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No One.
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Shooting people who double park works too but that doesn’t make it advisable.
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The difference between “worked” and “made us safer” is apparently too complicated for some minds.

That was up there with numbskull sgwhite . . .
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spob,
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Are you and Rusty even capable of engaging in a discussion without throwing in gratuitous insults? I’m still looking for proof that you can. Is that a conservative “thing” or just personal on your part?
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And spare me the “but they did it to me first” defense . . .

I read the counter article and what I was focusing on in the one I posted (and admittedly I should’ve been more clear on this) was that Obama apparently blacked out portions of the report:
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“But just as the memo begins to describe previously undisclosed details of what enhanced interrogations achieved, the page is almost entirely blacked out. The Obama administration released pages of unredacted classified information on the techniques used to question captured terrorist leaders but pulled out its black marker when it came to the details of what those interrogations achieved.”
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Whether you agree with torture or not (I believe using in apparently such a widespread fashion was/is wrong), cutting out information to fit the political conclusion you wish to present to the public is deplorable.

PD, the article was cited for the propositon that the interrogation techniques didn’t reveal much, if any, useful info.
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pwned, you stupid DB.

Are we conveniently forgetting that the memos were released pursuant to a court order? I know that following the law confuses certain people but it is what led us to this point.

“Yes, Rusty . . . a “change of subject we can believe in”.
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Spot on!

apollyon
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Are you seriously endorsing the lunatic ravings of a muthaphucking speechwriter who has never seen any parts of combat? Do you endorse this part of the story you linked to?
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Critics claim that enhanced techniques do not produce good intelligence because people will say anything to get the techniques to stop. But the memos note that, “as Abu Zubaydah himself explained with respect to enhanced techniques, ‘brothers who are captured and interrogated are permitted by Allah to provide information when they believe they have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardship.” In other words, the terrorists are called by their faith to resist as far as they can — and once they have done so, they are free to tell everything they know. This is because of their belief that “Islam will ultimately dominate the world and that this victory is inevitable.” The job of the interrogator is to safely help the terrorist do his duty to Allah, so he then feels liberated to speak freely.

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Please let me know so I can go ahead and stop engaging with you seriously if this is the kind of stuff you believe in.

No they revealed that they led to a ton of false leads. The memo you’re so proud of cites 6000 such leads.

afguy, given your support for Jane Fonda, I think we can pretty much discount anything that comes out of your piehole.
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sg gets abused by me because he was stupid enough to defend Obama’s “Austrian” comment and then act as if he won some debate–he is an idiot. Also, afguy, sg has specifically praised the assault on Justin Barker (the Jena Six case). That makes him fair game for such comments.
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And definitely personal on my part–I posted stuff and got called all sorts of names. I have a good memory and respond in kind.

apollyon07,
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I may not always agree with your viewpoint, but THANK YOU for making your points in an adult and mature manner and continuing the discussion in a similar way.

yeah thats it appollyon, the former Bush speech writer is DEFINITELY telling the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth about what was blacked out. Couldn’t be he is just being an opportunist. Nice to know that you think op eds are 100% factual.

“No one thought that the US was going to escape serious terrorist attacks post-9/11…”
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Believe it or not, not everyone was hiding in the corner of their basements peeing themselves in fear of a small band of fanatics, literally living in caves halfway around the world. Some of us actually understood that we were attacked by a group of nutjobs with boxcutters and a diabolical plan that could never be repeated and that it was only because they had the shear luck that we let airlines set security policy (never want to over-regulate, don’t you know) and had a bunch of idiotic psychopaths in charge of government who had completely ignored the warnings of their predecessors.

And let us not even begin to address that every iota of informantion gathered by waterboarding is automatically inadmissable in any legal proceeding. They’ve rendered hundreds of people to guilty to free but too innocent to try.

Re: Thiessen, Cheney, et al. Are were to trust the words of a) folks who could, if there ever were prosecutions, be targets of said prosecutions, and, b) people from the same administration that claimed that the planned attack on the Library Tower in LA – which was uncovered in 2002, leading the terrorists to abandon the attack – was thwarted only because we waterboarded KSM, the same KSM who wasn’t captured until March 2003? Remember, the LA attack thing is their top example of “waterboarding works!” Problem is, their argument doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. And what Thiessen is saying is just plain nuts.

At various jobs I’ve worked, we’ve sometimes received handouts, training, et cetera that sounded like that paragraph – restatements of our commitment to integrity and the like. Frequently, when such information is provided, it is implicitly clear from the supervisor providing it that the information is being passed on only as a formality, and it the way things are being done is not actually going to change (even if changes would be required in order for reality to comply with the information that was just provided).

I say this to draw attention to the difference between what Petraeus said here, and what, to my knowledge, nobody has actually said, which is “If you torture someone on behalf of the United States, under any circumstances, you will be fired and investigated criminally.”

Petraeus’ flowery words could easily be translated into “Torture is bad, and it’s awful that we have come to this, but that doesn’t mean we’re not going to do it if we think it will provide something useful.” I admit that I know virtually nothing of the intelligence agencies’ inner workings, but it seems to me that talk such as this would indicate only to hide the torture stuff if the inspectors were coming by.

given your support for Jane Fonda, I think we can pretty much discount anything that comes out of your piehole.
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spob,
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Read what I said. I disagree with what Jane did but defend her right to say and do what she did.
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For the record, I defend your right to say things that piss me off. I defend your right to go to a political convention and hold up a sign that you disagree with their platform. I don’t think you should be arrested or pushed off to a site that keeps others from seeing you just for being there. I served for 20 years to defend that right.
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I also believe that anyone who breaks the law should be held accountable, regardless of whether or not they voted as I did. Wrong is wrong, regardless of who did it or their prominence in the community or country.

“Believe it or not, not everyone was hiding in the corner of their basements peeing themselves in fear of a small band of fanatics, literally living in caves halfway around the world. Some of us actually understood that we were attacked by a group of nutjobs with boxcutters and a diabolical plan that could never be repeated and that it was only because they had the shear luck that we let airlines set security policy (never want to over-regulate, don’t you know) and had a bunch of idiotic psychopaths in charge of government who had completely ignored the warnings of their predecessors.”
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Amen! It cracks me up that the biggest tough talkers out there are also the biggest bedwetters.

Afguy, Jane Fonda produced enemy propaganda–Nixon was too much of a wuss to drop bombs where she was. You defend her ability to produce propaganda for the enemy–I don’t. Shut your piehole.

Nixon was too much of a wuss to drop bombs where she was.
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So I take it your defense of this country when you were in the Navy only applied to those you agree with, that anyone else was fair game for violence?
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I’ll bet you were a real piece of work to work with.

spob’s track record at upholding the Constitution he’s swore to defend isn’t spotty. That would imply that he’s even familiar with the document.

Ysah, Paul, the picture of spob that’s emerging isn’t pretty. I wonder how he feels about Robert McNamara now.

I’ve been asking this question since at least 2003: why are “conservatives” so AFRAID of EVERYTHING? I mean, the spongebobs and rustys of this world talk so big and tough, yet ultimately it is clear they are too afraid of their own shadow to engage it without a semi-automatic machine gun.
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The truth is, liberals are not only more realistic but far tougher than bed-wetting whiners represented here by spongebob and rustydog, and elsewhere by Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh, the titular heads of the Republican Party. Grow a pair you freakin’ wimps. Our way of life will prevail because America is tough enough and strong enough to not cower in fear of the worst-case scenario.
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And no one represents this American ideal better than President Barack Obama.

spob I hate Jane Fonda just as much as the next person, and I smiled widely when I heard a veteran stood in line at length just to spit tobacco juice in her face, but prosecuting her like some people whispered about would’ve been tough to do. Treason is categorized as knowingly giving “aid and comfort” to the enemy, and while she may have done this, it would’ve been hard to try her based off of her admittedly reprehensible actions.
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I think it’s unfair to imply Thiessen was being overly antagonistic to the Islam religion, my interpretation was that he was knocking the terrorists for following an obviously corrupted version of it that deviates from the mainstream, especially in the part you highlighted. However if you insist, no I don’t think mainstream Islam is a force to be feared of nor do I think it’s a bad religion.
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Also, bringing Thiessen’s credibility into question doesn’t answer the question of what you think about it if it is true. Also, I doubt that Thiessen would make such an accusation in one of the largest media outlets in America on such a hot topic if it was a lie, since presumably it would be unraveled very quickly (ask Dan Rather about this).

afguy, as you’ll recall, Fonda posed with an enemy anti-aircraft gun emplacement–a military target–i would have dropped bombs to get her . . . . Hey, you don’t wanna be hit, don’t let the enemy give you guided tours through a combat zone.

spob,

You are forgetting the most important point. Torture does not work. It illicits false information. The Bushies like to point out the information it got for these guys from waterboarding. What they don’t tell you is whether the information was accurate or even useful. In fact, must of the information gained by torture was false.

Don’t forget, we executed Japanese who used these methods, and the term “enhanced interrogation techniques” was coined by the Nazis. I think it is ironic the Bushies turned to the Nazis and Stalin to gain the correct ways to interrogate people.

We have often heard of the “ticking bomb” scenerio, where if it was a matter of saving lives, should we use torture. The problem is you can never be sure if what you are being told is the truth.

A study of history would show that other methods, which did not involve torture were far more effective in gathering information during WWII. Unfortuately, the Bush administration decided to follow those who fought for dictatorship instead of those who fought for democracy.

A good leader has 3 principles of war:
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Never fight unless you have to.
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Never fight alone.
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And never fight for long.
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Good leaders learn of war’s horrors and costs and understand that by its very nature war is unpredictable and uncontrollable. Your very power can instead become your weaknesses and you can become a slave to the unpredictable and uncontrollable.
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You know who a good leader is and who has study and written about the above?
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Robert Gates
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http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/08summer/gates.htm

apollyon07 wrote: “I doubt that Thiessen would make such an accusation in one of the largest media outlets in America on such a hot topic if it was a lie.”

Reminder: A lot of lies get placed in WaPo OpEds. A recent example is George Will’s misuse of scientific findings (which was later debunked a couple of times in the same paper, including here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/20/AR2009032003191.html)

Sorry to drag the convo O.T… but, please! Your faith in opinion writers — and in the Post in particular — is just nutty.

spob,
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I remember the photo.
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What I also remember sbout Vietnam is that our own leadership gave as much aid to the enemy as she did, re: cookie cutter bombing routes to the north, flight schedules that the NVA could (and did) set their watches by, delays that allowed the Cong to rebuild, reroute and resupply.
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I also remember the flag-burnings and other war protests, as well as the shootings of students at Kent State by the National Guard. Assassinations of JFK, MLK and Bobby Kennedy. All while the space program was underway.
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That period of time was a stain and period of pride in this country. But we survived with our sense of decency and idealism intact.

and afguy, I appreciate your kind words in regards to my rhetoric. It’s definitely possible and I believe necessary to not get angry at someone else just because of their viewpoints. Sometimes it seems like people on here feel that other commenters have personally wronged them or something.

For the kids in the audience who are unfamiliar with Time magazine: “Senate Armed Services Committee report” is Time magazine’s euphemism for Democrat press release. BTW, was this press release written by the Democrats for Time magazine or written by Time magazine for the Democrats?

Right on cue, textee.

Thiessen’s claim debunked well by Matthew Yglesias here: http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/04/torture-still-doesnt-work.php

“Indeed, the argument is such a mess that the fact that the alleged plot was foiled before KSM was even captured isn’t even the only problem with it.”

Maybe I’m mistaken but when Bush and Cheney took their oath of office they pledged to defend the constitution of the United States. Apparently the GOP doesn’t have a great deal of respect for anything about the constitution beyond the second amendment.
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The constitution isn’t just about protecting people from government, its also about protecting our system of government from the mob. If the GOP has its way we will have a bankrupt, authoritarian regime to pass on to our children, but thanks to our founding fathers we will pass on a thriving Democracy.
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The GOP is fond of quoting Jack Bauer, but perhaps they should have paid more attention to Jack McCoy. We are a nation of laws.

I’m actually surprised that the nutballs on here who have their panties all up in a bunch are not more upset with this accusation…
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http://www.infowars.net/articles/march2009/250309Ratner.htm
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Talk about “quoting Jack Bauer”.
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Who are the bed-wetters now?? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Um… Rusty? I think you meant HAHAHA (&c.) The repeated “AHs” make me fear you’re being burned with cigarettes repeatedly as you type or otherwise tortured. Please let us know you’re okay — we do worry about you, kitten!
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Oh, and by-the-by: I don’t think the question of whether the Bush Administration’s actions rise to the level of treason is actually anything new. I for one am willing to let the old media sunlight and the law take its course. Hopefully we’ll get more information from which to make that determination. Right now, it’s only clear that the Bush Administration enshrined torture as an American value over the past 8 years … we’ll see what other fresh hells appear in due time, I’m sure.

fhmadvocat–you know, you are a moron. You think torture doesn’t work. You bet it does. You think the Gestapo only got false confessions out of people? What planet are you from? The key is that you know some of the answers to the questions you ask. Catch the guy in a lie, and he gets more torture . . . .
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Moron.

I’m late to the discussion but did read through all of the comments. The way it looks to me is that afguy fought for his country because he believes in what it stands for. The Constitution that makes this country great is worth defending because it allows individuals who speak out against it the same protections granted to those who fight for it. The principles people like afguy fought for do not include torturing people or bombing people like Jane Fonda because she was making an ass of herself. For those who cheer us torturing our enemies, I’m grateful that I don’t believe in or live in your twisted version of America. Thank you for your service afguy. Your America wins.

afguy, tell that to all the South Vietnamese in re-education camps or worse . . . .

All the commenters in favor of the harsher interrogation techniques still have not responded of refuted Patraeus objections:
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“Our values and the laws governing warfare teach us to respect human dignity, maintain our integrity, and do what is right. Adherence to our values distinguishes us from our enemy. This fight depends on securing the population, which must understand that we – not our enemies – occupy the moral high ground.”
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Why is this not a problem Spob, Rusty, and Textee? Are you so willing to give up the moral high ground in this struggle?

Hey rusty the difference between us is that I know enough to ignore our crazies and you well are the crazy.

sacredh:
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Is that smell in here what I think it is?

You think torture doesn’t work. You bet it does. You think the Gestapo only got false confessions out of people?
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So…to prove your case that torture is okay and we should use it, you point to the Gestapo.
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I’m speechless.

Wow, well we know just where spob, textee, and rusty are going with this, aren’t we.
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Of course, they never considered that the best relief from torture would be to tell the torturer what he wants to know.
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And all that nets you is what you want to hear. Sounds Republican enough to me…

53_3: You mean my cigar? Store bought BTW. Or are you referring to the acrid stench of BS? Maybe bedwetters?

With regard to the Washington Post op-ed posted by Appollyon07, this article is not from a disinterested source. The writer, Mark Theissen is a visiting fellow at the Hoover Institution, served in senior positions in the Pentagon and the White House from 2001 to 2009, most recently as chief speechwriter for President George W. Bush. There are far more credible sources who directly contradict this partisan. Who you gonna believe – Bush or your lying eyes?

“Of course, they never considered that the best relief from torture would be to tell the torturer what he wants to know.
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And all that nets you is what you want to hear. Sounds Republican enough to me…”
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It’s note even really about the torture, it’s about following the authority authorizing the torture. It sounds incredible, but psychologists such as Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo have proven that it is extremely easy, with very little real authority, to get people to inflict painful torture on others. About two-third of a random sample only need to be told that it’s approved from above and it’s morally OK, using just about any justification, to literally flip the switch inflicting terrible pain (even to the point of death) on a total stranger. The unexpected cruelty that resulted from experiments like these were so chilling they were shut down and never repeated.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
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This guy has the definitive social science on authoritarian following:
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
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Sleep well.

shepherdwong: Thanks for bringing those up. I hadn’t considered it before, but those are perfectly applicable in our present situation.

When you cannot win, you twist words. The Gestapo point was to show that torture gets info, which refutes the point made by the genius who thinks that no info you get from torture is useful.
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Come one guys, nuance. It ain’t hard. It didn’t say that the Gestapo was something we should emulate.
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As for bombing Jane Fonda, well, she was in a war zone . . . . perfectly acceptable, even under your ROE.
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And as for the comment about high ground–well, somehow I doubt most people care a lot about three terrorists given the third degree. Like I said, you guys should be getting more worked up about the strip search that was debated in the Supreme Court this week.

The question, Spob, is how do you know they are terrorists? Aren’t we supposed to be a nation of laws? That having those laws apply to everyone, equally, is what differentiates us from third world countries? Remember Watergate – power corrupts! If someone says you are a terrorist (oh, sorry, “enemy combatant”) can I torture you? Just asking.

The Gestapo point was to show that torture gets info, which refutes the point made by the genius who thinks that no info you get from torture is useful.
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Torture: Tested and approved by the Nazi Secret Police!
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Let me put your comparison along side some examples:
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“What do you mean human experimentation doesn’t work? Mengele was able to find out about all sorts of things from human experimentation!”
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“What do you mean child soldiers aren’t effective? The Congolese Army kills loads of people with child soldiers?”
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“What do you mean suicide bombing doesn’t work? The jihadists have shown that suicide bombs are a highly effective tactic!”
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“What do you mean death squads don’t work? All sorts of Latin American nations have silenced troublesome populaces with death squads!”

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Cliff: So…to prove your case that torture is okay and we should use it, you point to the Gestapo.
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“Point”?
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I was thinking that spob had first-person, direct knowledge of the performance of Gestapo torture techniques…Dunno how else to describe spob’s smashed moral compass.

well, somehow I doubt most people care a lot about three terrorists given the third degree.
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You might not. Others might care about it a great deal. That’s simply a matter of who posesses more empathy.
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Regardless, it doesn’t matter if you care about the terrorist or not. Patraeus’ argument (and mind) is that it’s really our behavior that matters. If we declare we don’t torture, then we shouldn’t torture. If we keep pushing the boundary further and further off, then it’s not really a boundary, is it?

well, somehow I doubt most people care a lot about three terrorists given the third degree.
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You might not. Others might care about it a great deal. That’s simply a matter of who posesses more empathy.
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Regardless, it doesn’t matter if you care about the terrorist or not. Patraeus’ argument (and mine) is that it’s really our behavior that matters. If we declare we don’t torture, then we shouldn’t torture. If we keep pushing the boundary further and further off, then it’s not really a boundary, is it?

Just remember fellow commenters, we can all take comfort in the fact that whenever a conservative comes out in support of torture, what they are really doing is pissing on that Pinko, Commie, Socialist, Cowardly, Pu$$y, Candy Ass, Ronnie Reagan’s grave.
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Yep I said it.

sg – one thing’s for sure, spob and rusty hate American troops something fierce.

Cliff
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Honestly that isn’t true. They don’t have any true convictions honestly to say what they actually love or hate. Everything is predicated on what the folks at Hot Air or NRO or Powerline tell them to feel. If Ed Morrissey tells them to support the troops then they will be on here tomorrow defending the troops to no end. If Jonah Goldberg tells them to support gay marriage then they will come here tomorrow and make the best case ever for gay marriage. The problem is really that they are followers and not leaders. They take whatever their “leader” in the wingnutosphere says and run with it. They don’t question or second guess which I am sure at times confuses the hell out of them. Like today they were told to attack anybody who didn’t support torture. But then the wingnut God, Patraeus came out against torture so what should they do? Well in the absence of direction from their leader they just went ahead and attacked. Now they will go over to the wingnut websites and ask for guidance on Petraeus and I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t come back tomorrow and say that Petraeus should run for President in 2012. Thats really why its not any use debating them because the truth is you aren’t really debating them, you are debating the latest wingnut website they visited. Those guys are the proverbial face painters which is what makes it a lot more funny just to sit bacck and laugh at their contradictions.

sg – that’s a clear example of me stirring the sh!t for it’s own sake. You are correct in your assessment, and I think they are the worse for it.

From Krugman’s conscience: “Let’s say this slowly: the Bush administration wanted to use 9/11 as a pretext to invade Iraq, even though Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. So it tortured people to make them confess to the nonexistent link.
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There’s a word for this: it’s evil.”
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Sadly, most dem’s in congress and virtually the entire MSM helped advance such evil, or at the very least looked away. Either way, they’re complicit. So, when I see JK patting Ignatius on the back, wise pragmatists they, I want to see the both of them waterboarded and covered in faeces. Ironic that both of these wankers have penned fiction, and not merely in the press either. Like Cheney, they want this crap to stay in the shadows. It makes them feel better about being propagandists. After all, if our gov’t does evil, and they somehow dropped the ball on reporting such, well, what does that make them? Plus how could Joe continue to look at us with a straight face and sell our needed troop presence in Af-Pak. If the serious men in charge aren’t a far cry from Nazis perhaps all this great gaming is well, um, madness.
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And if it helps the loyal dems at the Swamp to feel better about their party affiliation, great, chalk up the last decade to egregious GOP excess, but the readily apparent fact remains that virtually every dem in congress is complicit in these war crimes. Sadder yet, they continue to serve in any capacity. If you knew your fellow high priest were diddling little boys and said nada…

serious men in charge
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It’s long past time for this odious meme to bite the dust. All they’ve ever been serious about is advancing their careers.

Don’t know if yall caught this but Tweety smacked John Ensign around today with the Senate Armed Services Commitee report and basically made him his b#tch
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Oh sh*t, have yall seen Sheppard Smith go off about torture? He dropped the f bomb!
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http://gawker.com/5223785/shep-bomb-loses-it-drops-f+bomb?autoplay=true

Here’s one from the one of the scapegoats.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/22/us.torture.karpinski/index.html
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Maybe Holder can go after those guys for that, too.
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I think all of us have an ‘inner Republican’, but the difference between them and us is that we keep tight controls on it. Spob, rusty and textee just let it all hang out, so to speak.

sgwhiteinfla Says:
Wednesday, April 22, 2009 at 10:03 pm
“Just remember fellow commenters, we can all take comfort in the fact that whenever a conservative comes out in support of torture, what they are really doing is pissing on that Pinko, Commie, Socialist, Cowardly, Pu$$y, Candy Ass, Ronnie Reagan’s grave.”

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sgwhiteinfla:

Yes, Reagan was once a Pinko, Commie, Socialist, but he left the Democrat party in 1962. We should forgive those people who were once Democrats but who ultimately renounce their Pinko, Commie, Socialist pasts and join the pro-America community.

Bush and Cheney have openly admitted, even bragged, that they sanctioned waterboarding – if this is a crime then why are they not charged? Is this America, or what? …………….

http://thefiresidepost.com/2009/04/16/indicting-george-bush-for-war-crimes/

textee:
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Can you explain to me just how you are part of the “pro-America” community?
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And just who is it that makes up this “community”?

And Ronald loved terrorists, too, didn’t he.
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I mean, unlike Jimmy Carter, who at least tried to free the American hostages, Ronald felt better lowering himself down into the same cesspool by transferring illicit weaponry from one terrorist orgainization to another.
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Yup, heck of a job, Ronny!

53_3:

Who makes up the pro-America community?

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Many Republicans. All conservatives. Even a handful of foreigners. The doors are wide open to join. We’ll even take former fellow travelers.

I don’t know if I’m behind the curve on this, but check out Maddows’ (and a Condi Rice advisor) perceptive take on it:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#30335366

So textee, what you are really saying is that we are not “America Haters”, we are, in actuality, just “Republican Haters”.
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Big difference, textee. Now, can you explain to me just why you can equate America with the GOP?
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I would really like to read your rational explanation.

textee
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It was that pu$$y girly man Ronald Reagan who banned torture in the first place when he signed on to the Conventions Against Torture. Evidently he was some kind of undercover bisexual master of the reach around and Republicans should totally denounce and reject him for handcuffing our forces from torturing people to make you personally feel more safe. Seriously you should burn him in effigy or something for that.

One other thing, textee.
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As strongly grounded in factuality as I am, how would it be possible for me to overlook the persistant lack of facts your peers have so far displayed?

Also, if Phillip Zelikow can venture a legal opinion stating that these tactics were against US law, why then, if the ‘pro-Ameirca’ “community” was so moch for rule of law, attempt to destroy all copies of his memos advising otherwise?
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Isn’t this a bit disengenuous? Are you saying then, that to love America, and be part of this “community” that I would have to accept that some government officials are above the law?

53_3, sg, Cliff:
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I’d be careful with the conservative bashing. Not all conservatives are idiots and not all idiots are conservative. Really we should just be bashing all those jingoistic hyper-partisan Rambo-wannabes who are clearly devoid of a moral compass.

nathan
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I always qualify my words with either wingnuts or “conservatives who do x”. I realize not all conservatives are idiots, but they damn sure do a sh*tty job of getting the smart ones out front and center.
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Here is more of Shep rejecting torture.
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I think the failure here is that everyone wants to define things in black and white terms. Terrorist are evil and they have no rights. Torture is evil and never works.
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Intelligent people would recognize that harsh interrogation techniques can indeed produce information that might be highly valuable, but those same intelligent people would also recognize that sometimes the price is too high to pay. It’s really not about whether torture works or not, or even whether we should care about the lively hood of those who murdered innocent Americans. It’s about the standards we imposed on ourselves the moment we signed a treaty saying that America doesn’t torture.
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When we signed international conventions against torture, we flat out declared that price to be forever too high. We didn’t sign it only to revoke it at a later date whenever we feel threatened, or to continually push the boundaries until the boundaries become meaningless. We signed a convention against torture to move beyond it, not back towards it.
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Our history is rife with customs and punishments that we’ve phased out because we no longer desire to pay the price. Slavery enabled the south to prosper. It quenched America’s thirst for cheap labor when it needed it most. And yet we don’t allow slavery anymore.
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Debtors prison was extremely effective in getting people to pay their debts. They used to lock you up in the worst of conditions and force you to pay for incarceration and your food until you settled your debt. Did it work? Of course it worked. And yet we no longer incarcerate debtors.
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Hanging is probably the most efficient and cheapest way to conduct an execution, and yet we no longer hang people in this country.
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Torture is no different. The moment we signed those treaties and said, “We don’t torture”, the price became too high to pay. We held ourselves to a higher standard than our enemies. We said that we could do better.
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Bush and his cohorts instead decided that torture can yield good information and they were going to use it, treaties and morals be damned. They gave in to the temptation. America can do better than that.
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We. Don’t. Torture. I don’t care who our enemy is or what heinous acts he commits. We. Don’t. Torture.

…but they damn sure do a sh*tty job of getting the smart ones out front and center.
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I absolutely agree. I feel like all the people who have microphones in this country and the ones most unqualified to have them.

That should read: I feel like all the people who have microphones in this country are the ones most unqualified to have them.

Nathan7777 I think has the right idea that this isn’t a black and white issue. And to sg and pobo1 who questioned my source earlier saying torture has worked before, how about this one: Obama’s Director of National Intelligence, who in a memo to the intelligence community, shared the same sentiments (that such methods yielded high value information), though of course he omitted this from the public version that was released. Nice.
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I certainly think it’s wrong and deeply regrettable the extent that torture was apparently used (200+ times waterboarding?!). But to say torture flat-out doesn’t work is false.

Here’s the actual text of Dennis Blair’s memo.
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http://blog.usni.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/2009-04-16-dni-memo-to-workforce-sl_004151.pdf
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People would do well to consider the fact that his audience included the people who actually carried out the interrogations and all their colleagues.
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As I’ve pointed out many times, there would be no need for laws and international agreements against torture if there weren’t powerful temptations to take the shortcuts that they represent. But the truth remains, that in order for good to prevail in the world, it is necessary that the powerful refrain from evil. Otherwise we might as well just become our enemies and be done with it.
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Stated another way, one of the more effective ways to avoid a terrorist attack is to refrain from deserving it. We are better than that.

apollyon
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Since you like op-eds so much
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23soufan.html?_r=2&ref=opinion

I like that op-ed sg, and it’s just one more piece illuminating the price of harsh interrogations and torture and the inherent risks involved when we sanction that behavior: it can damage the reputation of this country, it can backfire, and it can put good people in compromising situations.

The funniest thing about this “enhanced interrogation” business is that nobody pays attention to the intelligence professionals who keep on saying that regular interrogation works better.
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You have to admit, though, that the endless procession of journalists and pundits going through the waterboarding wringer somewhat delegitimizes it as torture in the eyes of the public. Same case with tazering…

I think in the last 8 years the motive was revenge rather than truth finding. America was wounded and thus a more resolved way of doing things and I am not sure whether this was to bring confidence in the American public and something to respond urgently.

There were previous allegations that the Oklahoma bombing was not the work of domestic terrorists but foreign involvement as well. Conservative America wanted something to be done fast so that America did not look weak and pitiful in the eyes of the terrorists.

And when someone is angry or “piss off” you do not knock on the door as the opportunity might be a violent consequence! As such the last 8 years is akin to “Mr. Steven Seagal” to put things right!

Why the use of torture — well these are not Americans and who cares they are Arabs, Afghans, or anybody who else aside from Americans. But the problem at the end is that we shoot ourselves as repercussions from the international community does not like our anger and thought we are suppose to deal with things more civilly; too bad, we are stll human beings and we let the emotions took care of us rather than our dignities.

Did the Bush Administration made any mistakes — NO! They tried their best to better the situation. And I do not think a witch hunt by either the Democrats or any Libs could console our souls. But the Obama Administration did the right thing to expose what was going on and perhaps we should not let our emotions take over our souls!

cp4abOlishm3nt: I agree that revenge was a primary motive in the acceptance of these methods, which, lets face it, we all knew about since 2002. I went to a talk by Mickey Edwards (former rep Mickey Edwards, co-founder Heritage Foundation, President of AIPAC – in other words, a conservative) recently, who expressed strong disapointment that the Republicans/Conservatives are so quick to defend torture and other abuses. In his eyes, this is not a partisan issue. Remember “Country First”? I certainly am not looking for a witch hunt, and the fear that an investigation and possible prosecutions may be percieved as such is a perversion of our democracy – I want to know what happened, who approved it and have those people held accountable. I feel the same way about some of things Obama is continuing from the Bush adminstration. By ceeding their primary duty, which is to uphold the constitution, our elected officials are failing all of us.

pobo1: When the Obama Administration released those documents its very clear who are the planners, drafters, approvers and actors. All are very much guilty in their actions. But were they wrong then? No they were not as they had the legitimate authority to use and find out whatever resources were available. Having said that I was very much in disagreement with the Abu Ghraib prosecutions of those who acted and carried out the torture on the Afghans and the Arabs! Why only target the foot soldiers who carried out the orders…what about the planners, the drafters and the approvers? OH these people have the “GET OUT OF JAIL FREE” Card. I just felt sorry for the actors not only they have to sell their life to America but also took in all the rubbish they had to take for OTHERS!

Thats why I do not agree to any sort of prosecution now, only us citizens, to know that in future we are not suppose to do these acts and become more resolved human beings. But then again in reality thats not going to be the case as there are NOSEY people who wants everything to be transparent.

Remember we are all in the doldrums of a very bad economy and focusing on the unnecessities only put us at a disadvantage. And also lets not forget if prosecutions and inquiries are necessary, we have to spend additional funds. So the Conservatives are going to point that the Dems and Libs are again spending unnecessarily in this day and age for some trivial pursuits.

By the stroke of a pen, the government can take away our “RIGHTS”
based on the nebulous “In the interest National Security”. A vivid
example is the movie Under Siege, with Denzel Washington, Bruce Willis, et al, where martial law was declared and all middle eastern men were incarcerated like the Japanese in World War II.
Bush and Cheney started us down this path by authorizing the use of interrogation techniques documented in these discussions.

Had the United States suffered another 9/11 tragedy during Bush’s term of office, there is no doubt that he and Cheney would have ordered the suspension of “certain” rights that we take for granted; that may have included 100% monitoring of all communications; the round up of “suspected” enemy combatants; military presence in our cities; and the use of interrogation techniques on our own citizens who were deemed to be enemy combatants.

It still can happen if the wrong people have control of the government. Just something to think about

I am not saying that what the Conservatives and the Republicans did was correct. All I am saying is that having a witch hunt defy all purpose and we should be more resolute in our actions.

Being a liberal or Democrat does not mean that we should inherit a system to persecute wrongdoers of justice…in this case then we are not better than the Republicans or Conservatives. Yes we need to know what, why and how interrogation techniques happened.

cp4ab0lishm3nt: I agree that Abu Ghairab was a disgrace – the responsiblity lies not just with the foot soldiers (who rightly should be held accountable) but all the way up the chain of command. All of those who participated in torture – from the President on down to those who actually implemented the torture, should be prosecuted. The law (should) apply to all.

If you look at yesterday’s news about the military’s indiscipline and misappropriaties in Afghanistan, you notice that the Administration was quick to remove a “top” leadership. This is how things ought to be done. Again if you look at our military in Iraq there were a lot of claims of internal indiscipline and perhaps disunity. This is troubling…I think there are those who do not want to abjectly follow what is to be done and as so these personnel become liabilities because they are deemed as ‘weak.’ Those who follow normally are perhaps have no choice, either you go to the brig now or you do it as being told.

Organizations that choose to ignore all these inappropriaties / misappropriaties will one day come to a “Columbine” conclusion. Time to deal with all the internal miscreants and put a record straight for transparancy to the highest order.

The Bush Administration waited too long for the resignation of then Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld…Watch out for John Bolton if he does make it as a future for Defense Secretary for the Republicans…He is another timebomb on the domestic and international diplomacy

Tortue, “the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.” Where does waterboarding fit into this definition? Simulated drowning? Scary spiders? Yes, there may be psychological terror inflicted on these prisoners, but one could argue that getting sent to any prison and being raped over and over by fellow inmates amounts to psychological terror, and even physical torture, yet we allow and fully condone prison sentences. My point is that many acts of punishment could be perceived as torture or psychological duress, but that doesn’t necessarily make them so.