The Fine Print Of Cheney’s Complaint

Last night on Sean Hannity’s Fox News program former Vice President Dick Cheney, who has discovered a new-found love for the press now that he has no government power, continued his post-election campaign against President Obama’s national security policies. The most alarming part of the interview was his suggestion that the Obama Administration is trying to hide information from the American people about how effective harsh interrogation had been:

One of the things that I find a little bit disturbing about this recent disclosure is they put out the legal memos, the memos that the CIA got from the Office of Legal Counsel, but they didn’t put out the memos that showed the success of the effort. And there are reports that show specifically what we gained as a result of this activity. They have not been declassified.

There is certainly lots of information that has not yet been declassified, but Cheney is wrong to suggest that the released documents fail to describe the reported success of the harsh treatment. The May 30, 2005 memo by Steven Bradbury (download here) includes pages of description of the benefits of harsh interrogation, which are summarized today in the Washington Post by Marc Theissen, a former Bush Administration official. Theissen, like Cheney, present a scene out of 24, the television shows. Tough guy terrorists won’t talk, until they think they are drowning. Then they give up the store.

The accuracy of this vision is, from what is known publicly at present, still in dispute. As Scott Shane reported Saturday in the New York Times, the waterboarding of Abu Zubaydah, which is deemed major success in the Bradbury memo, was seen as totally unneccesary and unproductive by others in the intelligence community. “Abu Zubaydah had provided much valuable information under less severe treatment, and the harsher handling produced no breakthroughs, according to one former intelligence official with direct knowledge of the case. Instead, watching his torment caused great distress to his captors, the official said,” Shane reports.

Even the Bradbury memo acknowledges these disagreements within the classified community about the effectiveness of the methods. In a footnote on page 31 of the May 30 memo, Bradbury writes:

According to the [CIA] IG Report, the CIA, at least initially, could not always distinguish detainees who had information but were successfully resisting interrogation from those who did not actually have information. . . . On at least one occasion, this may have resulted in what might be deemed in retrospect to have been the unnecessary use of enhanced techniques. On that occasion, although the on-scene interrogation team judged Zubaydah to be compliant, elements within CIA headquarters still believed he was withholding information. . . . At the direction of CIA Headquarters, interrogators therefore used the waterboard one more time on Zubaydah. . . . [I]n the Zubaydah example, CIA Headquarters dispatched officials to observe the last waterboard session. These officials reported that enhanced techniques were no longer needed. [Emphasis mine.]

The open-ended phrase “at least,” may be most important part of that footnote. Did the CIA or the Justice Department ever seek to find out if there were other examples of these disagreements, or the unneccesary use of the waterboarding? If so, those would be good documents to declassify as well. If not, why?

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  • Dee in Columbia MD

    Here’s a question, has Cheney learned nothing from the Valerie Plame incident? How many times will he get away with exposing classified information? I might be wrong but isn’t it illegal to even to allude to the specific nature of classified intel and its existence?

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  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Simply the number of times that waterboarding was applied is a testimony to it’s level of effectiveness. Even if you have no qualms about the moral implications, the memo’s make clear that the victims weren’t the only ones getting their heads beaten against a wall.

  • sacredh

    Cheney has always lived in a world of his own with rules of his own. Like Leona Helmsley before him and her famous comment about taxes, Dick believes that laws are for the “little people”, not him.

  • Joe Bftsplk

    Based on his public statements since leaving office, I think we should add treason to the list of crimes Cheney should be tried for.
    Has any former VP ever tried so hard to undermine his successors?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Dee
    .
    What could Cheney have possibly learned from the Plame incident other than he could do it and get away with it scott free?

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    For my fellow 24 fans beware — Cheney reminds me of the John Voight character. So much so, that in a completely life imitating art sort of way I’m expecting him to initiate a coo on the white house from his home in Virginian. Doesn’t South Africa have a guy named Zuma under ethics investigation?

  • primor1

    What would be gained by proving that “enhanced” interrogation techniques work? Does that justify them?… It all makes me think of Ray Bradbury.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    SG — well there’s that, but I was hoping that he would learn from Scooter Libbey’s experience that a presidential commutation is different than a pardon.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    I totally get why Obama doesn’t want his administration to be known for the Bush trials rather than the administration that saved America. But he could at least suggest to Card and the opthers that Cheney ought to stop drawing so much attention to himself.

  • formerlyjames

    Not to mention manipulating the agency to deliver his own version of intelligence, such as in the run up to the Iraq attack. If Cheney is not prosecutable, nobody in that rotten, corrupt administration is. He is the pinacle of the heap.

  • sy2d

    Last night on Sean Hannity’s Fox News program former Vice President Dick Cheney … The most alarming part of the interview was his suggestion that the Obama Administration is trying to hide information from the American people about how effective harsh interrogation had been.

    Oh really. Dick “Saddam has a Nuke” Cheney rubbed himself in excrement again and, not only is its news-worthy, you found cause for alarm? And what was the import of Pinocchio’s most recent prevarication: We got some information through torture.

    Someone once said: “There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.” This post renders that statement inoperative. Congratulations.

    The real news today:

    [A]dministration officials said Monday that Mr. Emanuel had meant the officials who ordered the policies carried out, not the lawyers who provided the legal rationale.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/21/us/politics/21intel.html?_r=2&hp

  • sacredh

    Farenheit 451. Someone needs to tell Cheney that paper burns just as surely as his soul will in hell.

  • Friar Tuck

    In his own sick and unintentional way, Cheney is making the best case possible for opening the files and preparing indictments. I hope Fox gives him his own nightly show.

  • Friar Tuck

    Now, don’t go Old Testament on me, sacredh . . . oh, OK. Go there. Yeah.

  • sacredh

    Give me a good night’s sleep and a day off and I’ll get downright medieval on his ass.

  • maurice2u

    Can we please just stop paying any attention to Cheney? His influence simply does not hold any water outside of those who already prescribe to his views, or hold to an absolutist view of falling in line with anything one on “their side” says or does.
    .
    Even while in office, friend and foe alike would agree that the former Vice President is brash, arrogant, and dare I say “a jerk”. Some found that useful as long as he was pursuing ends they found beneficial, some did not. Either way, he is now relegated to something of a psuedo-Limbaugh role. Just another pundit with no real future of being in a public service position.
    .
    Make no mistake, this was a very powerful man, and a very smart man with decades of history and knowledge we may never come to fully unravel. Nevertheless, he just doesn’t have any pull. His target audience is primarily made up of a shrinking minority, from a fading generation. Let him fade off into the wild blue yonder. Kicking and screaming he may be, but it doesn’t mean we have to give him the attention he craves.

  • rustyreturns

    I happened to have watched Cheney last evening on Hannity. What Chenney said was “if you are going to open up TOP SECRET memos and expose them to the public, then open them up totally. Include in your exposure exactly what “intel” was gleaned from said interrogation. Don’t just point fingers at people and say how bad the intervention was, also point out what the outcomes were gained.
    .
    Obama opened the hornets nest, Chenney is just calling him out to provide further information.
    .
    I agree with Chenney, tell it all or tell nothing at all. I as an American have the right now to know it all, not just what Obama decides to let me know.

  • sacredh

    Would this be as opposed as to what Bush/Cheney decided we should know?

  • formerlyjames

    rusty, you agree with Cheney?? Surprise, surprise.

  • rustyreturns

    LOL@formerlyjames!

  • formerlyjames

    rusty, I am sure the you will extend you agreement to any future inane statements Cheney will make, even before we hear them.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Briefing-by-White-House-Press-Secretary-Robert-Gibbs-4-20-09/

    .

    Q Just to — on the CIA, you said that you released these documents for two reasons — one, because it was the right thing to do, but also because you wouldn’t have had any legal alternative.
    .
    MR. GIBBS: Well, I mentioned that as a backdrop for the situation; the notion that I think it’s important for everyone to understand that there was a pending court case that involved Freedom of Information Act — a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit involving — that had been ongoing involving this government and an interest group for access to these documents.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    The truth is we already know most of what was in the OLC memos from the Red Cross report, its just that wingnuts didn’t believe the Red Cross report. Funny how the report mirrors the memos though isn’t it?

  • alphabatt1

    Cheney, and the rest of the arrogant Bush Admin. made mockery of the Constitution, squandered US lives, hollowed out our military and contributed to the financial crisis. All this based on “cooked intell.” that lead an invasion of Iraq. He should just sulk away, instead of hanging around like the at fault driver of a horrific traffic accident, proclaiming his innocence.

  • queencersei

    Does anyone expect anything less from Cheney? Of course he will go down defending the CIA’s “enhanced interrogation techniques”. This is a man who could be facing serious prison time if anyone actually decided to investigate the matter in a legal sense.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    I am good with decclassifying everything. Including this one:
    .
    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/04/disappearing_the_historic_record.php
    .
    This is, of course, pure BS on Cheney’s part. No matter what is released he’ll claim they’re holding back the really good stuff.

  • mccainfluffer

    Last night on Sean Hannity’s Fox News program former Vice President Dick Cheney, who has discovered a new-found love for the press now that he has no government power, continued his post-election campaign against President Obama’s national security policies.

    Sean Hannity is not part of “the press.” He is a right-wing propagandist. Of course Cheney is going to talk to someone like him (and John King previously) because he can spout whatever he wants without fear of being challenged.

  • Matt

    Why does Cheney think that anyone other than his fellow right wingers or Fox News cares about what he thinks, especially about Obama?

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • choska

    I was going to write that Obama needs to call Cheney’s bluff and prosecute him. But that would be wrong.
    .
    Obama is the President of the United States. He has better things to do than stooping to deal with suspected criminals like Cheney. He also has an entire area of government that is charged with investigating possible law breaking.
    .
    The DoJ needs to proceed with its investigations of anyone and everyone who violated the law – in any area – and that would include the members of the previous administration that broke our laws regarding torture or the authorization of torture.
    .
    No justice, no peace.

  • plukasiak

    I agree with Chenney, tell it all or tell nothing at all. I as an American have the right now to know it all, not just what Obama decides to let me know.
    _
    so you think that Cheney should have released the information about his energy task force? Good to know, Rusty!

  • FlownOver

    Few people believe anything coming from Cheney, and no one else believes those who do. Save the time, ink and/or electrons – let him decompose in the dark, attended only by the usual sycophants and loons.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    President Obama just opened the door to prosecuting Bush Officials over torture. He said he is leaving up to Att Gen Holder. Good times

  • Friar Tuck

    sycophants and loons
    .
    Smothered in gravy! Mmmm . . . that would hit the spot.

  • rustyreturns

    The OLC “torture memos”: thoughts from a dissenter
    Tue, 04/21/2009 – 9:17am
    By Philip Zelikow
    “In other words, Americans in any town of this country could constitutionally be hung from the ceiling naked, sleep deprived, water-boarded, and all the rest — if the alleged national security justification was compelling. I did not believe our federal courts could reasonably be expected to agree with such a reading of the Constitution”.
    .
    In other words, everyone citizen or non-citizen, in the United States or in the possession of any US representative on foreign soil, could constitutionally be hung from the ceiling naked, sleep deprived, water-boarded, and all the rest — if the alleged national security justification was compelling. Said enemy combatant or terrorist should be treated as we would any other citizen of the United States. No matter to the fact that said enemy combatant or terrorist would as soon cut your head off just because you said you were “American” or “Christian” without fail should you be on their side of the fence in a “War on Terror”.
    .
    Now we see the Obama position is to simply send in a drone, bomb the hell out of innocent people when it is suspected that a terrorist is lodging in the same building.
    .
    We won’t torture anyone any longer. We will just simply KILL them all, period. The innocent as well as the terrorists. This almost sounds like combating terror with abortion tactics.
    .
    Humanity is great actually. We frown upon so-called “torture”, but “if at first you do not succeed, just kill everybody”.

  • centfan

    So Cheney is going to do the responsible thing and tell the terrorist community what we know and how we found out just to keep torturing. Yep, I have to agree with rusty, that’s the right thing to do.
    -
    Also, if a terrorist says he had plans to make five hydrogen bombs out of used pinball machines and says if the CIA raids Ahmed’s Pinball Parkade the plot will be foiled then I guess that entitles Cheney to say that torture saved 5 million people.

  • Ohg Rea Tone

    Shawn Hannity and DICK Cheney traveled around the nonsense issues of modern Republicans. They are making a big deal out of Obama’s attempt at charming nasty leaders of obscure countries. They forget that Mixon, Ford, Reagan, and both Bushes did the same thing. ………..

    http://thefiresidepost.com/2009/04/20/obama-and-nixon-greeting-nasty-people/

  • bobcn1

    From Newly Released DOJ Memos Support Account of Torture of KSM’s Children using Insects: ‘… KSM’s children were “denied food and water by … guards.” In addition, “They were mentally tortured by having ants or other creatures put on their legs to scare them and get them to say where their father was hiding.” Accounts of the children’s ages at this time vary, although they are generally said to have been under ten.’
    .
    Whether torture is or isn’t effective is the wrong question. Instead we should be asking ‘how far are we willing to debase ourselves’? Are we ready to abandon our values and the norms of human decency and behave immorally?
    .
    If the answer is ‘yes’ then the terrorists have won. They’ve succeeded in destroying American principles.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla
  • centfan

    “Now we see the Obama position is to simply send in a drone, bomb the hell out of innocent people when it is suspected that a terrorist is lodging in the same building.”

    Rusty thinks our troops are babykillers. Why do you hate our troops rusty? Why are Republicans anti-veteran?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    centfan
    .
    Let me save you the blowback you are about to get. You see thats what the “silly libs” think. Thats what he is going to say. Because of course thats what we said about Bush, even though we didn’t.

  • Friar Tuck

    Q. What kind of sick f*ck tortures children?
    .
    A. One or more agents of the government of the United States.
    .
    This is beyond nauseating.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Obama has said he doesn’t support charging CIA agents and interrogators who took part in waterboarding and other harsh interrogation tactics, acting on advice from superiors that such practices were legal. But he also said that it is up to the attorney general whether to prosecute Bush administration lawyers who wrote the memos approving these tactics.
    .
    Very simple. Obama still needs the rank and file in the CIA to support him and work with him, he wants the BushCo Lawyers to keep their yaps shut and not cross him.
    .
    “Leaving it up to the attorney general” is the same as leaving it contingent on the target’s current and future behavior.

  • FlownOver

    Friar:

    Be sure to stop by more often; our menu of specials changes daily. Tomorrow, it’s marinated wings with nuts.
    And thanks for the suggestion about adding gravy.

  • Deggjr

    Where was Cheney during the Republican National Convention? Where was he during the presidential campaign? He didn’t go on Fox then. I think the Republican Party had the right idea: Dick Cheney, no one believes you, go hide someplace where you can’t be found.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    By the way, the dirty little secret is that Cheney lied last night. He hasn’t actually asked the CIA to release any info.
    .
    http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/source-despite-claim-cheney-didnt-really-ask-cia-to-release-torture-intelligence/#comment-11021

  • Paul-no not that one

    Say outrageous things. Watch people respond. Is there a dime’s worth of difference between Cheney and Limbaugh?

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    Well this is what happens when you start believing your own hype. If they had kept their mouth shut and went quietly into the night Obama may have been able to stop these event from spiraling as he initially wanted to do. But with Cheney and crew practically telling the world to ignore Obama that torturers are who we really are at heart, prosecution is inevitable. Thank you Cheney for helping us to Push Obama to do the right thing and lock your lying behind up.

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  • danieljs2

    Weren’t the tapes of the actual interrogations erased?

    Does anyone really know if the memos are fact or creative writing?

  • jcapan

    Other than seeing him in shackles, waterboarded and stung by a swarm of hornets, then promptly lynched on reality TV, there’s nothing more I’d like to see than Obama (in this separate alt. universe) show some cajones, double down on “Chenney,” and try the f-cker as a war criminal. In other words, tell the SOB to shut the F up or “it’s on.” But fantasies sustain me.

  • sacredh

    jcapan: My fantasy is seeing Cheney strapped down on a gurney and Barney Frank sitting on his face eating chili while Ann Coulter reads It Takes A Village while inhaling helium. Rocky Horror Picture Show is playing on one wall while Pink Flamingoes is playing on the other. Marilynn Manson’s AntiDhrist Superstar is playing in the backgroud. I win.

  • apollyon07
  • mercfan74

    I personally believe it’s a mistake to torture war prisoners. I do have moral objections but that’s not my primary reason, it’s because it puts our soldiers in danger of having similar acts committed against them upon capture.

    However, torturing prisoners has been going on in an unofficial capacity since WWII. So this is really nothing new other than someone in the White House has finally admitted it.

    Regardless of how you feel about the torture issue, the important aspect of all this that has been lost in this debate is that Nine US soldiers were convicted in Abu Ghraib abuses because the Bush Administration (including Cheney) lied when they denied this was US Policy at that time. The soldiers said they were following orders and claimed this was US policy, they even tried to get Rumsfeld and Cheney to testify in their defense, but that was never going to happen.

    Now Cheney turns around and says that is was policy.

    They painted these soldiers as un-educated, under-trained – zealots. They ruined the lives of these soldiers and their families. They volunteered to fight because they believed in the Bush Administration’s agenda and this is how the administration thanks them for their service? All because it was INCONVENIENT for the administration to admit that torture was US policy?

    If for no other reason, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush should be indicted because of this incident alone and should rot in hell.

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