In the Arena

Tortured Explanation

As usual, Glenn Greenwald purposely distorts my position, this time on the torture memos, making it seem as if I opposed their release, when in fact–as Swampland readers know–I favored the release and vehemently opposed, on numerous occasions, the CIA’s various “enhanced interrogation” practices. What I did do that seems to have piqued Greenwald’s ire is to report an obvious truth: this is going to hurt the morale and perhaps the efficacy of the clandestine service, which performs in extra-legal situations around the world. Greenwald finds the phrase “extra-legal” Orwellian. Perhaps…or maybe it’s just a way to describe what spies do: they lie about who they are in order to steal information that can affect national security.

Now, there’s probably an interesting public debate to be had about the clandestine service lurking beneath Greenwald’s distortion. Toward the end of his life, my mentor Daniel Patrick Moynihan was beginning to doubt the efficacy of all sorts of secrecy, given the fabulously inept record the CIA had put together during its 60 year existence–and the clearly illegal capers, like the attempted assassination of Fidel Castro by the mafia, that some of the geniuses at Langley spawned. But, ultimately, I disagreed with Moynihan’s position. There is a real need for a carefully-operated, proportionate clandestine service. If we can, for example, place an agent in Osama Bin Laden’s or Beitullah Mehsud’s inner circle, that would certainly be worthwhile…or to make this truly “extra-legal,” what about placing US informants within Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence directorate?That would be illegal, according to Pakistani law, most certainly. I’m in favor of it, without caveat. Or to take another example: If the pirates were holding Captain Phillips on Somali soil, instead of asea, and the Navy SEALs staged the same operation, it would been, well, illegal–no Somali visas, unauthorized use of violence in a (somewhat) sovereign nation; murder, one could argue. (Same is true for Jimmy Carter’s pathetic, half-hearted attempt to save the US hostages in Iran in 1979). In wartime and in espionage, legality has its limits. My question for Greenwald is: do you believe that there should be any US clandestine service at all? And, on a more personal note, you do realize that one can believe in clandestine operations (and the NSA program now legal under FISA reform, for the matter) and still be absolutely opposed to torture, as practiced by the CIA?

Actually, I will concede one thing to Greenwald: I’ve been opposed to prosecuting the Bush miscreants–for political reasons, mostly. The President has put an awful lot of important domestic and foreign business on the table and this whole issue of what went on under Bush, and is no longer happening now, is a diversion from getting the important stuff done. I still believe there should be no prosecutions for CIA operators who requested a legal judgment and received one that I consider to be disgraceful and illegal, under international law. But I do believe the man who issued that judgment, Jay Bybee, lacks the moral stature to sit on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals and should be impeached. His tenure there isn’t part of the past; it affects our present and future–and it should end as quickly as possible.

Harman: It is being reported that Jane Harman was caught on an NSA wiretap, offering to try to obtain easier treatment of two Jewish-American lobbyists who had been caught in a minor espionage case in return for support (from AIPAC, presumably) for appointment as chair of the House Intelligence Committee. I’m not sure that’s illegal–sounds like the sort of horse-trading that goes on all time, but–if true–it is disgraceful. (And it would be nice to know the name of the “Israeli agent” who was her correspondent.) I’ve been an admirer of Harman’s. I think she has been a smart and valuable member of Congress, one of the most knowledgeable Democrats when it comes to intelligence matters. But you don’t horse-trade in an espionage case. Period.

More on Harman: The always excellent Laura Rozen has a wild twist in the Harman case–was the anti-Harman leak a plot by Republicans and former CIA officials to turn attention away from the CIA torture story? Possibly. The fact that, according to the Washington Post, Harman was one of the few Intelligence Committee members opposed to water-boarding may have also added to the motivation for taking her out now. Harman’s office has denied calling the Department of Justice on behalf of the Aipac miscreants–but she hasn’t denied the wiretapped conversation.

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  • rustyreturns

    Now I guess we know why Obama didn’t vote against FISA. He is on a blood revenge of all the democrats who opposed him in the primary. I simply love it!

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Joe,
    It would appear that your argument deliberate fails to differentiate between breaking another country’s laws and breaking our own. The whole exercise behind the OLC memo’s was to make our own treaty obligations disappear. If the CIA ought not be accountable to any authority but themselves then why do they have a legal depertment in the fisrt place?
    .
    But your already on record with your belief that Congress can’t direct the Executive branch anyway, so your latest spinning isn’t too surprising.

  • plukasiak

    As usual, Glenn Greenwald purposely distorts my position, this time on the torture memos, making it seem as if I opposed their release,

    actually, Greenwald described your position accurately…

    Time’s Joe Klein purports to list all the dangers for Obama in alienating the CIA as he has: morale will drop; they’ll all retire at the time he needs them most for Afghanistan and Pakistan; Obama is sparking a “potential rebellion in the clandestine service.” Klein then unleashes this deeply Orwellian observation (h/t CRust1): “This is an extremely serious claim in the intelligence culture, where some operators are asked to behave extra-legally for the greater good of the nation.”

  • plukasiak

    It would appear that your argument deliberate fails to differentiate between breaking another country’s laws and breaking our own.

    BINGO! The whole point of the torture memo issue whether the torturers should be prosecuted under US law. Joe endorses the torture by framing it with the (relatively) innocuous sounding “some operators are asked to behave extra-legally for the greater good of the nation”.
    _
    Lets face it “asked to behave extra-legally for the greater good of the nation” is the “Nuremburg defense”… and Greenwald properly called JK for revealing his authoritarian/krypto-fascist instincts.

  • Deggjr

    Nice strawman, Mr. Klein, very carefully constructed.
    .
    The fact remains that Representative Hoekstra pawned you and you were caught. Let it go. I don’t think you’ve quoted Hoekstra since (not that anyone can tell) and that is to your credit.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Would someone be good enough to explain for me the distinction between “extra-legal” and good old fashion “illegal”?

  • Joe Klein

    Paul Dirks–You think Greenwald favors breaking another country’s laws, but not ours? Really?

    And for those trying to twist this back to an argument about prosecuting CIA staffers,I’m not buying. I’m opposed. What I’m trying to do here is broaden the argument, see what the actual limits are. From the comments above, I infer that all of you are in favor of having a clandestine service. Is that right? If so, what should the limits be?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Ironically, with a little imagination, it probably would be easy to come up with a scenario where violating a US statute could be justified for the greater good. But that’s why we have juries.
    .
    I actually agree that the people who commisioned and authored the memo’s bear the lions share of culpability but I’m very concerned about the mental health of the interrogators themselves. Once again, there are few hard and fast rules of human nature but there’s one that comes with a guarantee. If you give someone unlimited power and zero accounabilty, the worst possible outcome is guaranteed.

  • gysgt213

    “As usual, Glenn Greenwald purposely distorts my position, this time on the torture memos, making it seem as if I opposed their release.”
    .
    Joe-maybe you can point to Glenn’s contention that you opposed the memo’s release.
    .
    I did a search of the article and he takes you to task rightly so about you listing all the dangers to Obama:
    .
    Time’s Joe Klein purports to list all the dangers for Obama in alienating the CIA as he has: morale will drop; they’ll all retire at the time he needs them most for Afghanistan and Pakistan; Obama is sparking a “potential rebellion in the clandestine service.” Klein then unleashes this deeply Orwellian observation (h/t CRust1): “This is an extremely serious claim in the intelligence culture, where some operators are asked to behave extra-legally for the greater good of the nation.”
    .
    That’s what government crimes are called in the eyes of our press corps: they’re just acting “extra-legally” — and not just “extra-legally,” but “for the greater good of the nation.” You should try that at home. Go rob a bank and when the police try to arrest you, just tell them: “I was just making an extra-legal withdrawal; what’s the problem”? That’s also how the media (and Democrats) constantly talked about Bush’s illegal spying on Americans. What he did was never a “crime” or even “illegal” (even though the law criminalizes the very conduct he got caught engaging in with prison terms and fines); at worst, it was: “he was engaged in eavesdropping in circumvention of the FISA framework.” That works, too, if you want to rob a bank: “I was just making a withdrawal in circumvention of the banking regulatory framework.”
    .
    http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/17/prosecutions/index.html

  • Paul-no not that one

    “If so, what should the limits be?”
    .
    You first. Do they have “007″ status?

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    Bush and his gang of war criminals get a free pass through life. It is only the rest of us mere mortals who are obligated to follow the law.

  • plukasiak

    You think Greenwald favors breaking another country’s laws, but not ours? Really?
    _
    absolutely. I suggest you actually read what Greenwald has written with regard to FISA; specifically his support for the original FISA bill allows for the government to monitor “foreign to foreign” communication, despite the fact that such eves-dropping is illegal in most countries (especially when its the government being spied on).

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    We’re talking about torture here, Joe. It’s our laws against torture that Greenwald was talking about.
    -
    Our espionage overseas is not related to our breaking US laws. I think Paul Dirks is right. And I don’t care if Greenwald thinks we should never break foreign laws, that’s not this discussion.
    -
    What do we want? Well, I want us to abide by US law, and prosecute lawbreakers. Simple enough. I’m a law-and-order Democrat. The limits as defined in US law should be observed. If the laws are out of date, update them. There’s literally no limit to what Congress will pass if you say it in the same breath as the phrase “national security.” I’m not even debating the merits of the laws yet; just live up to them. No one here disagrees that it’d be delightful to put a mole in AQ’s inner circle.
    -
    Thanks for engaging here in the comment threads– very, very much appreciated.

  • gysgt213

    “What I’m trying to do here is broaden the argument, see what the actual limits are. From the comments above, I infer that all of you are in favor of having a clandestine service. Is that right? If so, what should the limits be?”
    .
    Joe-What difference does it make if you/we can go back and change the limits when they get caught violating them? Because that’s what you are missing when you attempt to get away with your not buying prosecution. The limits were already in place.

  • the committee

    a diversion from getting the important stuff done
    .
    Ooh, yes, what a delightful stroll in the park TORTURE PROSECUTIONS would be, tra-la! We’ve heard so many bad things about our country in the last eight years, I think we could all use an escape from the horror of it all, and just waste our time on some TORTURE PROSECUTIONS, like it was going to the movies. Let the important stuff wait whilst we distract ourselves with the whimsical spectacle of TORTURE PROSECUTIONS. Rome had its bread & circuses; why can’t we have our TORTURE PROSECUTIONS, Mr. Klein?

  • afguy

    Joe,
    .
    I don’t think you’re going to win this argument with this group. They (and I) think the process has gotten out of control. Without SOME accountability, this is just going to happen again and, from a moral or ethical standpoint, there’s no argument you could make that I would find compelling.
    .
    And that includes breaking the law to protect MY children. There’s a higher code than that that I feel I have to answer to.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    You think Greenwald favors breaking another country’s laws, but not ours?
    .
    I’m willing to let him speak for himself. Certainly there has been a long history of Congress and the President together via statute, determining what the CIA can and can’t do. None of these discussions involve foreign laws. You don’t honestly think that anyone beleives the CIA shows sharp concern over the laws of Libya except when an agent (or mole) needs to be bailed out of a bind?
    .
    Kidnappings in Italy are a different sort of problem.
    .
    Suggesting that if you think the torturers should be prosecuted then that means that we can’t allow accumulating parking tickets in Barcelona, is a significantly worse misdirection than anything Glenn’s thrown at you.

  • pobo1

    The fact that we, as a nation, are still discussing whether or not to prosecute torture and should we prosecute the torturers, or the lawyers who said it was okay, or the executives who got the lawyers to say it was okay is just…I don’t have a word for my exasperation. Torture is illegal not just according to US law, but International Law. There is no justification for torture. I’m sorry, but those CIA people should have resigned. Hasn’t anyone seen The Reader? She was not a monster, but she was still responsible for the murder of innocents. She was just doing her job. And she went to prison for it. They (CIA, lawyers, everyone up to the President) belong in prison for the same reason.

  • montrealdude

    I dont think anyone is against countries having spy networks; i would think its a given every country is spying on every other country to some degree, and when your country gets caught you say “oops” as diplomatically as possible and try to move on. But what on earth does torture have to do with spy networks; theres a world of difference between gathering information by spying and gathering information by inflicting harm on another human being by use of torture.

    And thats the big elephant in the room that nobody with a big rep wants to tackle; how is what the white house is now saying not any different from what the germans were saying after WWII (just following orders.)? If the germans declared waterboarding legal in 1939, would that have made it not a crime? I think Obama is great, but i think his own legal conscience is going to force him to do something to make the situation make moral sense.

  • Friar Tuck

    my mentor Daniel Patrick Moynihan
    .
    Not very effective, I guess.
    .
    There is a real need for a carefully-operated, proportionate clandestine service.
    .
    And I would be in favor of creating one.
    .
    But you don’t horse-trade in an espionage case
    .
    So now you’re Tom Clancy. This post is an encyclopedia of suckage.

  • dalybean

    Well, Joe, it looks like Nancy Pelosi had better judgment about removing Harman as chair of the Intelligence Committee than you did. Don’t you think it is time to apologize for the execrable piece where you supported Harman and attacked Pelosi as the personification of “flutterable uncertainty?” Because it wasn’t Nancy Pelosi who was caught on tape saying, “This conservation doesn’t exist,” was it? It’s time to admit that Jane Harman looks like an idiot and Nancy Pelosi looks like a patriot. Use better judgment next time than going out and doing Jane Harman’s bidding, please.

  • Carlos the Dwarf

    Joe, that’s an unfair shot at Carter. If you’d done even a little reading on the subject you would know that.
    .
    I guess if you could go back in time and invent a helo that was both capable of being stored below the deck of an aircraft carrier AND refuling mid air AND THEN you took said helicopter and protected it from sand storms, then yes with this magic helicopter Carter’s actions would look ” pathetic, half-hearted”. But absent this piece of technology that didnt exist, what was the man to do?

  • dalybean

    I am also offended at Harman’s denial where she admits to being a stooge and says that some members of AIPAC found her “well qualified” to chair the House Intelligence committee. As if they were the American Bar Association opining on the qualifications of a judge rather than an unregistered agent of a foreign government. It is galling at this time, that after the Freeman debacle, that Harman is trying to mainstream the idea that AIPAC is entitled to weigh in on the qualifications of candidates for our government.

  • rose83

    What I’m trying to do here is broaden the argument, see what the actual limits are. From the comments above, I infer that all of you are in favor of having a clandestine service. Is that right? If so, what should the limits be?
    .
    Well I think we can all start with a consensus that American laws should be respected. And like Moynihan, I believe that the CIA’s history of incompetence suggests it would benefit from more transparency and public scrutiny. That’s not a moral argument; it’s actually simpler than that. It’s a fact that people tend to do their jobs better when they’re monitored and rebuked when they mess up. Kind of like journalists who write blogs.
    .
    But give us a specific example and we might be able to come back with more detailed responses.
    .
    Would someone be good enough to explain for me the distinction between “extra-legal” and good old fashion “illegal”?
    .
    P-NNTO, if you want to read an intelligent and short but incredibly difficult book that looks into this very question check out Italian Philosopher Giorgio Agamben’s Homo Sacer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgio_Agamben
    .
    And I would be in favor of creating one.
    .
    Friar Tuck, LOL.

  • Art Pepper

    Amy Davidson in the New Yorker put it well:
    .
    If you are not going to prosecute people who got clearance from lawyers to commit crimes, and you are not going to prosecute the lawyers, then what, exactly, keeps any lawyer in any White House from telling anyone they can do anything?
    .
    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2009/04/close-read-tales-from-the-dark-side.html
    .
    The answer from our beloved Beltway, apparently, is: Nothing.

  • Art Pepper

    And second Carlos’ comment.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    It is somewhat ironic that the same people who pushed an illegal war on the basis of spreading democracy and the rule of law, now argue they are above the law for behaving lake Nazis.

  • Cliff

    But you don’t horse-trade in an espionage case. Period.
    .
    I don’t know what that means. It’s as though you told me, “You don’t fistfight at a banjo convention.”

  • formerlyjames

    After all is said about the CIA, the bottom line is that the President controls the place. It is his hook, line, and sinker. It goes with the DOD, DOJ, and Air Force One. All of the failures and stumbles of the agency can be attributed completely to the administration in office. Assinine assination attempts of heads of state, overthrows of democratically elected governments, Iran/Contra, Bay of Pigs, torture. Obama knows that it is his and what they do during his term will be at his behest. Releasing the memos was as much a statement of what he will not allow as his promise not to prosecute is one that he expects loyalty to his aims.
    .
    It doesn’t matter in the least what I think about clandestine operations. What matters is what Obama thinks.

  • shepherdwong

    “I infer that all of you are in favor of having a clandestine service. Is that right? If so, what should the limits be?”
    .
    Well I’d love it if they didn’t use authoritarian-following journalists as their surrogates to make their specious, self-serving arguments to the American people but, right now, I would settle for an end to wiping their @sses with the US Constitution and NO TORTURE REGIMES!
    .
    And third on the Carter cheap-shot. I haven’t a doubt in my mind that if the exact same operation had been successful, that little RWA voice in your head would have sent that familiar authoritarian-following thrill up your leg on President Carter’s behalf.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    I infer that all of you are in favor of having a clandestine service
    .
    Not me. The costs greatly exceed the benefits. I am for open source intelligence. Much more consistent with (putative) American values, and way more efficient. Academics around the world know a great deal more than guys in tuxes hanging out in embassies.
    .
    The real reason for clandestine operations is to remove accountability. It is not like the US really tries to keep activities covert. All covert means is the that the government won’t admit to doing what everybody involved knows they’re. The Saudis, the ISI, the Afghans, the Soviets all knew the US was supporting the mujahadeen. There was no actual covertness.
    .
    I also do not buy the BS that we don’t hear about successes. And that the successes are actually successes. Yeah, the democratically elected government of Iran was taken down by the CIA. Yeah, a “friendly” dictator with no respect for (putatively) American values was installed. But, in the event, this couldn’t be labeled effective. The embargo still happened. And an evil, repressive and unfriendly government has been in power for more than a generation.
    .
    George Washington had it right.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd
  • incandenzah

    I’m learning a lot on this thread. I hope Joe is still reading.

  • kathy

    I think there may be occasionally justifiable departures from what is legal, in a variety of spheres. But I’m not sure that’s really what’s at issue here. To wonder whether it’s okay to torture in some circumstances suggests that it is efficacious.
    .
    When you have to waterboard someone 183 times you’ve demonstrated that it’s ineffective. So why do what is illegal if it’s also ineffective?
    .
    Why don’t we have research (or rather, why aren’t we putting it into effect – we surely have this research) into effective ways to get information from people, that don’t involve torture?
    .

  • Art Pepper

    jayackroyd: Do you make a distinction between the intelligence wing of the CIA and the covert ops wing? It seems the covert ops have caused most of the damage over the years (the coups in Iran, Greece, Chile, Guatemala; right-wing death squads; etc). Not to say the intelligence wing has been blameless. Or particularly competent.
    .
    One problem with secrecy is that it seems to create institutional pressure to hide failure.

  • shepherdwong

    OTOH, it looks like you made Atrios’s day.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    If we can, for example, place an agent in Osama Bin Laden’s or Beitullah Mehsud’s inner circle, that would certainly be worthwhile
    .
    this is ticking time bomb nonsense. Our actual agents reject malaria and cholera as part of their job description. Sure, Joe, that would be good.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Another GOP Congressman kisses Limbaugh’s ring
    .
    http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/20/tiahrt-limbaugh-apology/
    .
    Joe
    .
    When Commentary tries to call you out its best to put up a blog post refuting them, when Glenn Greenwald calls you out its best to actually take notice of his criticism. He is a little over the top at times and thats from big fan of his, but most of your post dedicated to refuting him doesn’t do that much at all. And if you actually read Greenwald on a regular basis you would see that you and he aren’t that far off in your ideology. He isn’t some far left wacko. In truth he just believes in the constitution and all that it encompasses. Now he might be holding you to a high standard but can you really argue that it was the wrong standard? Because if we are a nation of laws then we have to act like one and the Conventions Against Torture forbids the “I was just taking orders” excuse and it demands that when people are found to have tortured that they be prosecuted. Period.
    .
    Oh and as for Harman, the lack of on the record quotes in the CQ article leads me to believe its a major frame job. I don’t particularly care for Harman but you have to build a better case than just a mountain of anonymous former Bush officials to get me to believe any part of that story.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Art
    .
    My view is that secrecy is poisonous. In the event, it is always about covering up failure. And that if it is needed to cover up a heinous action that the govt is unwilling to cop to, well, then it shouldn’t do it. All this stuff comes out eventually, and IME, it is never good. Making a real commitment to democracy (regardless of result) capitalism (regardless of who wins) is much more effective, in the long haul, than trying to pick (or worse, install and arm) short term, authoritarian “allies.”
    .
    These people have a bizarre notion of their control of events. That is not a partisan view; it seems to come with the Oval Office. One of the things that I am admiring about Obama is that he doesn’t seem to have this particular virus.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    kathy
    .
    It is not about effectiveness. Waterboarding doesn’t elicit intelligence. This was about power and terror.

  • rose83

    The real reason for clandestine operations is to remove accountability. It is not like the US really tries to keep activities covert. All covert means is the that the government won’t admit to doing what everybody involved knows they’re. The Saudis, the ISI, the Afghans, the Soviets all knew the US was supporting the mujahadeen. There was no actual covertness.
    .
    jayackroyd, it’s also about keeping Americans unaware. Iranians and people throughout the Middle East were soon aware of America’s involvement in the 1953 coup. The CIA was keeping it secret from Americans, which doesn’t relate to national security at all: Their supposed enemies knew about the CIA’s actions, but their supposed employers (the American people) were ignorant.
    .
    But I disagree about the necessity for an intelligence service. They can provide valuable information.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Speaking of Glenn Greenwald, he asks a very good question wrt winning a Pulitzer today.
    .
    http://twitter.com/glenngreenwald/status/1569661261
    .

    Other than David Barstow’s, has there ever been a Pulitzer-Prize-winning investigation never mentioned on the TV?

  • formerlyjames

    rose, I am always following behind you noding my head in agreement. See Klein’s previous blog deriding Susan Boyle. Anyway, yes, intelligence activities are absolutely necessary. But ones that shoot us in the foot, such as meddling in other sovereign nations wall paper is destructive. The issue of intelligence collection is more complicated than would be apparent in the common discourse, which draws on fantasies of James Bond and license to kill and all that nonsense. As I said before, if you are unhappy with intelligence operations as they have been revealed, as far as we are allowed to know them, look to the administration in office. I would personally handcuff Dick Chaney and deliver him to the Hague on a moments notice.

  • g_crush

    .
    Cliff: I don’t know what that means.
    .
    Interceding on behalf of two Israeli lobbyists-cum-spies in exchange for political support.
    .
    Joe Klein: I’ve been opposed to prosecuting the Bush miscreants…The President has put an awful lot of important domestic and foreign business on the table and this whole issue of what went on under Bush…
    .
    Poor justification, Joe…(1) It’s Holder, not Obama, not Congress, that would do the prosecution. (2) Even if it were, a President does have to multitask.
    .
    I still believe there should be no prosecutions for CIA operators who requested a legal judgment and received one that I consider to be disgraceful and illegal…
    .
    I’m going to suprise a few people and agree. I’m also going to agree with Greenwald:

    I think the need to criminally prosecute those who authorized and ordered torture (as well as illegal surveillance) is absolute and non-negotiable…

    I’m in the middle ground here; I don’t want the Lynndie Englands of the CIA to hang. I want Alberto Gonzales, Michael Hayden, et al – the ones who ‘authorized and ordered’, who smoothed the legal path to torture…these are the high-level persons that set the damned policy, ignoring legality and common human decency in pursuit of some Jack-Bauer-24-and-power-trip-induced hallucination.

  • yutsano

    Why don’t we have research (or rather, why aren’t we putting it into effect – we surely have this research) into effective ways to get information from people, that don’t involve torture?
    -
    They have Kath. Any police detective worth their salt will tell you that interrogation techniques that involve gaining their trust and valuing them as humans will get you much further than any bullying technique. But Jayack pretty much nails it in one:
    -
    It is not about effectiveness. Waterboarding doesn’t elicit intelligence. This was about power and terror.
    -
    Bingo.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    My problem is that I tend to agree that prosecuting the interogators for following the guidance of the OLC wouldn’t be good idea and shouldn’t happen. But every time someone puts forward an argument to that effect, it’s full of holes. It’s like the less that’s said, the better!

  • formerlyjames

    PD, I wonder how much of the torture routine was going on before the transparent fiction of issuing the legal justification?

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Yes, Rose, my point is that it is about keeping these things secret from Americans.
    .
    As for an intelligence service, I think that is essential, yes. I just think it should be open source, peer reviewed.
    .
    A friend of a friend was elected to the House during the Iranian hostage Nightline ratings event. He got onto House Intelligence, and was looking forward to the top secret, in the special room, hostage briefing. The Top Secret binders arrived all right. But they turned out to be mostly NYT articles.
    .
    I cannot know for sure, because real intelligence people would never talk to me. But I have had way too many conversations with people who should have never even mentioned what they do if this were serious. I’ve been driven to the London listening station. I have had a recounting of a Blackbird trip. I have been regaled with special stuff these people claim to know that shouldn’t be mentioned to me. I have no need to know. Joe Klein has no need to know. His “sources” are violating their oaths.

    You can say, in principle, that there needs to be covert intelligence gathering. But I don’t think you can make a case

  • MJones

    Joe let’s leave the issue of the rank and file CIA officers aside for now. How about if you explain your apparent position that, despite the legal foundation upon which our country is built, you believe that the powerful elite should not be held accountable for their acts while in power, and should be exempt from US and international law.
    .
    I get that these people are your friends and colleagues and it would be painful for you and the Washington elite to watch one of your own brought to justice like a common criminal. Yes, that would be very painful for you and your class. Oh, I know, you see them pushing their own grocery cart in your neighborhood Safeway and you don’t want to think you’ve been consorting with war criminals.
    .
    But, then, why have laws, why have a Constitution that spells out what these powerful people can and can’t do? Why enter into international treaties and act like the world’s moral authority when you and your class are so willing to give ONLY people in your own social circle a pass on some of the most shameful and despicable acts and policies I’ve seen in my lifetime. What you are advocating, you and your social circle, is tossing aside the legal structure that is the fabric of our country, because it will be too distasteful for you to hold them accountable for their actions.
    .
    But here’s what concerns me, Joe Klein. Watergate, Iran Contra, Torturegate, these are the SAME PEOPLE who got a pass before. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove and that whole cohort. Poindexter, Abrams. These people have infested the structure of our government for 40 years. 40 years Joe, and you and your social elite keep giving them a pass and giving them a pass on their criminal activity. They have learned well that you and your social elite will never hold them to the laws of our country. Indeed, you work hard to protect them. You circle the wagon, man the bunkers and exclude and marginalize those who hold the MAJORITY opinion in this country.
    .
    They’ll be back to do it again. And it will be, once again as it was before, because you and your social circle believe it would be just too distasteful and uncomfortable to do anything about it. I think that’s a cowardly, craven position. And I’d like you to explain to me why it isn’t.

  • Cliff

    g_crush: I think I was confused by Joe Klein making an unequivocal statement about principles, that completely flies in the face of observed reality.
    .
    Does he think Harman is the only politician to (allegedly) engage in horse trading with espionage? I don’t.

  • Cliff

    They’ll be back to do it again. And it will be, once again as it was before, because you and your social circle believe it would be just too distasteful and uncomfortable to do anything about it.
    .
    And he will be shocked, SHOCKED I TELL YOU, that they didn’t learn their lesson from the last time.

  • 53_3

    Joe:
    .
    “Same is true for Jimmy Carter’s pathetic, half-hearted attempt to save the US hostages in Iran in 1979″
    .
    I have to take you to task for this statement on several fronts:
    .
    1. Was the fact that it failed what made it ‘pathetic’? Can you justify this statement? How was it ‘pathetic’?
    .
    Did the failure to anticipate a sandstorm 10,300 miles away make it so, at a time when weather prediction on that small a scale was far less advanced than now? Was it ‘pathetic’ because it wasn’t attempted by Ronald Reagan?

    .
    2. Jimmy Carter was not on the scene of the rescue, nor did he micromanage it. Therefore, why do you say it was ‘half hearted’?
    .
    Mind you, Joe, you are effectively calling the Amred Forces who were called on what I percieve as a bold, but failed opeartion, as ‘half hearted’ when in fact, they should be held up as heroes. You impugn the Armed Forces with that particular comment, even if it is motivated by your clear dislike of Jimmy Carter.
    .
    Hell, Joe, if you hold Ronald Reagan as superior to Jimmy Carter in this regard, perhaps it might be wise to take note of the following:
    .
    Unlike Ronald Reagan, who made deals with terrorists to supply weapons to yet other terrorists, Jimmy Carter had the guts to attempt to return the hostages to the United States via use of our military, and but for a sandstorm, almost succeeded!
    .
    Rebut, please.

  • http://ergotism.org/2009/04/20/if-i-only-had-a-brain/ Ergotism › If I Only Had A Brain

    [...] your reading pleasure, Joe Klein wails on a strawman, oblivious to the fact that no one is saying that we shouldn’t have spies, or that spies [...]

  • nathan7777

    Jay -
    .
    You can’t counter clandestine espionage with open source espionage. Open source espionage makes about as much sense as fighting a war while broadcasting your troop movements to your enemy, or playing football and letting your opponent know what play you’re running on every down.
    .
    This isn’t the world of software, where open source leads to innovation (hopefully).
    .
    While it’s true that closed doors usually increases the risk of corruption and abuse, we have two other branches of government that are supposed to check the power of the executive. Secrecy is not the problem. It’s the bad decisions of the people in the Legislative and Judicial branches of government that’s the problem.

  • nathan7777

    Joe -
    .
    The US needs a clandestine service, but even a clandestine service needs oversight.
    .
    Congress, judges, and internal oversight mechanisms should be checking the power of our clandestine services. They should be looking out for the little guy, promoting the interests of the American people, and limiting operations to within the constraints imposed upon them by our laws (but not necessarily the laws of other countries).
    .
    If things go wrong, and our clandestine service oversteps their bounds (as they have with warrantless wiretaps and “enhanced interrogation”) then the onus of responsibility lies with those tasked with overseeing these operations. Congress, our Judicial Branch, and the internal oversight departments of the CIA, NSA, and FBI, have miserably failed to perform their oversight duties. With failure comes repercussions; if no-one is prosecuted or investigated for these terrible lapses in judgment, then what is to prevent them from making the same terrible decisions again and again and again?
    .
    I hate to use this quote, but it’s true: Who watches the Watchmen, Joe?

  • zenzless

    “Same is true for Jimmy Carter’s pathetic, half-hearted attempt to save the US hostages in Iran in 1979″

    “Jimmy Carter was not on the scene of the rescue, nor did he micromanage it. Therefore, why do you say it was ‘half hearted’?”

    Joke Line should read Mark Bowden’s “The Desrt One Debacle”. Hell, you all should.

    http://iran.theatlantic.com/interactive_article_page_1.html

    “Open Source Intelligence™”?

    Get serious.

  • shepherdwong

    “They’ll be back to do it again. And it will be, once again as it was before, because you and your social circle believe it would be just too distasteful and uncomfortable to do anything about it. I think that’s a cowardly, craven position. And I’d like you to explain to me why it isn’t.”
    .
    Obviously, it’s axiomatic. Power will be abused and unpunished abuse leads to even more wanton abuse. Why real liberals like Greenwald are incensed and completely non-partisan in their ire toward the abuse and free reign to abuse, courtesy of our self-regarding “watchdog press”. Beside the fact that it makes us look like amoral, lawless animals.
    .
    But Joe’s desire to let torturers be isn’t about cowardess, exactly. “They” – the CIA, the military and their congressional intermediaries – are at the center of authoritarian power (Daddy’s love and protection) and that has an irresistible attraction for him. His reliable credulity to obviously and wholly unreliable sources and parroting of obvious right-wing propaganda, especially while viewing himself as a liberal, has no other explanation. He’s forgotten more than we will ever know about right-wing deception because it allows him to stay close to and associate himself with what serious authorities have to say. Better than a cup of hot cocoa and a waft of Dad’s Aqua Velva and on a scary, stormy night.

  • zenzless

    I’m glad Jay agrees with George Washington:

    “George Washington had it right.”

    “The necessity of procuring good Intelligence is apparent & need not be further urged–All that remains for me to add is, that you keep the whole matter as secret as possible. For upon Secrecy, Success depends in Most Enterprizes of the kind, and for want of it, they are generally defeated, however well planned & promising a favourable issue.”

    George Washington, 1777

  • shepherdwong

    Digby:

    …this isn’t just a battle between the right and the left. It’s a battle within the CIA, which is obviously riven by its two responsibilities. They always feel under seige, because they are attacked from all sides. But the problem is that they only do one thing well — obtain and analyze information. The right goes after them because the CIA analysis are usually right and it undermines imperial plans. The left goes after them because what they do in these [other] covert activities inevitably goes wrong. They just aren’t very good at that stuff — nobody is. In fact, nobody should do it at all because the potential for blowback from the unintended consequences and the inevitable application of Murphy’s Law makes it a losing proposition.

    The CIA should be gathering information, period. They should not be running prisons, they should not be assassinating people, they should not be in charge of “enhanced interrogation.” Their analysis has proven to be good far more often than not, even if it doesn’t fulfill the dark wishes of the wingnut imperialists. That’s what they’re good at. Let them stick to it.

  • fasteddie9318

    Only in the world of the Washington elite is prosecuting criminal acts considered “a diversion from getting the important stuff done.” Can you help us understand, Joe, which crimes should be prosecuted and which are simply distractions with no present or future value? I’d like to know what the (apparently new) law of the land is.

  • Art Pepper

    Also, if I may say so, “reflection not retribution” is one of the stupidest false dichotomies I’ve heard since “you’re either with us or you’re with the terrorists.”

  • MJones

    Joe Klein, I’ve noticed that there is something of a childish fascination in Washington, especially among male journalists, with a kind of fantasy cloak-and-dagger mythology of the CIA. I wonder how much of this stunted-growth fascination goes into your tolerance and advocacy of unfettered and unmonitored “clandestine service” as you call it.
    .
    You have to remember that it was the liberal blogosphere who were Valerie Plame’s earliest, most vociferous and most active defenders. These male Washington journalists, for all their adolescent fascination of spies and secrets and “clandestine services,” remained very, very quiet for years about the betrayal and the outing of Valerie Plame. You know, when push came to shove, and the REAL agents and officers of the CIA were under attack from their own government, it was the liberals who were openly criticising, defending, and writing in their defense. So I have a hard time taking you Washington CIA fan-boy types very seriously now. You have a lot of nerve implying that we don’t support the stated mission of the “clandestine services.” Aye, but there’s the rub. I said the “stated mission.”
    .
    Remember this:

    .
    I have a different feeling about Libby. His “perjury”–not telling the truth about which reporters he talked to–would never be considered significant enough to reach trial, much less sentencing, much less time in stir if he weren’t Dick Cheney’s hatchet man. . . .
    .
    But jail time? Do we really want to spend our tax dollars keeping Scooter Libby behind bars? I don’t think so. This “perjury” case only exists because of his celebrity–just as the ridiculous “perjury” case against Bill Clinton, which ballooned into the fantastically stupid and destructive impeachment proceedings.

    -Joe Klein, circa June 2007

    .
    and finally:
    Obama gets euphoric CIA welcome
    If there were hard feelings, they weren’t on public display at the Central Intelligence Agency. Hundreds of agency employees packed the lobby of the original headquarters building to hear Obama and exploded in cheers and applause when he strode in with CIA director Leon Panetta.
    .
    What do you think about that, Joe Klein?

  • awfuk

    Seriously? And then you throw the Harman stuff out there at the end as a diversion? You shouldn’t concede anything to Glenn as you didn’t address torture at all and made a little noise about non-relevant stuff. Good move. The CIA will not be demoralized by moving back to pre-Cheney rules about torture. They won’t. No breakdown of the clandestine operations will occur when the White House will not sell you out to save their ass Valerie Plame style.

    Horrible article. Horrible.

  • smilingdog

    Joe,
    Another sad, spineless piece of writing. I’ll pick out the duplicity and cowardice as best I can (although it’s easy to miss a few examples).
    1. “…extra-legal situations around the world.” Do you mean torture or spying or are you trying to make them somehow equivalent? Sad.
    2. “…vehemently opposed, on numerous occasions…” Is it possible to vehemently oppose something illegal and reprehensible, yet suggest we do nothing about it? Only in the world of duplicitous political writers.
    3. “…absolutely opposed to torture…” See above. You aren’t absolutely opposed to torture if you think we should let those who authorize it get away with it? At what point did you toss World War II down the memory hole? If you could have read in grammar school the rationalizations for war and torture you have made as an adult, you would have been ashamed of your older self.
    4. “I’ve been opposed to prosecuting the Bush miscreants for political reasons, mostly” So, by that piece of twisted logic, you would always be opposed to any President or his Administration being prosecuted for anything they did during office, as it would invariably alienate the people who elected him/her in the first place. You believe in Presidential immunity, then. You are in the company of Richard Nixon.
    5. “minor espionage case”? Is that like misdemeanor espionage?
    6. “Jewish-American lobbyists” “not sure it’s illegal” So two lobbyists connected to AIPAC are caught spying and AIPAC still has enough influence to dictate who is put in charge of the House Intelligence Committee and can throw their weight around to prevent an investigation of espionage from its own members? Why should AIPAC even be allowed to continue to exist, much less have that much influence on our Senators and Congressmen?

    Really, Joe, it’s sad to even read this stuff and think that major news organizations still take you seriously.

  • guitardedkev

    “…this whole issue of what went on under Bush, and is no longer happening now, is a diversion from getting the important stuff done.”

    Bravo, Joke Line!! The same, tired cliche that implies that we can either work on “the important stuff” OR we can uphold the rule of law by prosecuting war criminals, but not both.

    Incidentally, isn’t restoring the rule of law “important stuff”?

  • didaktikos

    What I find odd in this conversation (and others) is that the highly educated, trained, experienced personnel of the CIA are discussed as it they were interns or total naifs–they had no idea if torture was legal or not, and just had to get legal advice upon which they would passivley rely.

    They knew it was against US law. They knew the US had prosecuted this behavior, and they know that if anyone did this to our citizens we would condemn it as torture and punish it as best we could.

    Debate if you like the merits of clandestine operations. What should not be open to debate if we are to uphold our laws and ideals is that we should not employ torturers and that we should discourage that most egregious lawbreaking with prosecution.

  • gpanfile

    I am going to belly up fully for JK here and against the usual GG overwrought self-righteousness.

    First of all, the people at Nuremburg were accused of loading innocent women and children into ovens and killing them. There is no moral equivalence here with waterboarding, and all comparisons on that basis should cease, desist, stop, and otherwise forever be declared irrelevant.

    Secondly, yes, we are talking about secret agents here. And while perhaps they should have blanket ‘licenses to kill’ they should have something. And that something should mean that if they do err and go a bit far, they get amnesty, forgiveness, whatever.

    Because I think that’s the real issue here. Suppose we grant that the people in the CIA or whatever who just followed orders… but did it with the guilty (NOT the innocent) in a non-lethal (albeit abusive and torturous) way, were wrong, committed crimes. That does not necessarily mean they should be prosecuted. There needs to be some discretion and consideration of circumstances. One circumstance, yes, is the political one, if we really want the Repugnants, who have NOTHING going now, to have this to latch on to. Another is the effect on agents in the field, do we really want them doing less and looking over their shoulder. A third is, given the circumstances, might a reasonable person have followed those orders even knowing they were illegal? Reality is, if you really study American history, our troops committed atrocities in WWII, and in Vietnam, and there are degrees of atrocity. Granted, you are not supposed to execute prisoners, but shooting for example the women and children of My Lai is not the same as shooting, let’s say, a captured VC who just killed three of your buddies from boot camp. They are both murder, both illegal, but not the same. Finally, you have to look at it from the point of view of these CIA people… they don’t get paid that well, they can’t talk about their work, they take great risks, they are away from their families a lot. They get faced with an obvious terrorist piece of trash who may know something, and have a stack of paper signed by God and the eleven good apostles that says it’s fine to waterboard the dude. Their choice is to do that or refuse, which nukes their career, their pension, and the like, affects their family. You can say they made the wrong choice if you take the purist GG line, and that for making the wrong choice they get whatever prison time the statute says, with no understanding, no nothing, period. Or…

    You can say something like this… we gave all the people who dodged the Vietnam draft amnesty. Several times we have given amnesty to illegal immigrants. You write the paper for the President to sign, oh righteous ones… but I say we grant these guys amnesty. They were on the right side trying to do the right thing and given the right documents. Maybe they f*cked up but they are not criminals.

  • gpanfile

    and one more thing… any ‘rule of law’ people in favor of prosecutions who smoke weed ever, you’re OUT. Not to mention any other statutorily impermissible indulgences of any sort. Hopefully that cuts the crowd at least in half…

  • didaktikos

    gpanfile, you are on the wrong track here. Respect for the rule of law is not inconsistent with lawbreaking; one could break the drug laws and still not claim a special exemption to the law. Respect for the rule of law is not inconsistent with believing that some laws are misconceived, or bad, or evil. Civil disobedience, after all, often consists of willingly exposing ones self to the aw through a principled breach.

  • didaktikos

    I might also mention that there is no true equivalence between torture and toking.

    In fact, I’d rather our CIA agents did the second instead of the first.

  • MJones

    Amazing how someone like @gpanfile can compose a 500-word screed and be so reading-comprehension-challenged that his earnest defense of his carefully-constructed strawman completely misses the target. But then so did Joe Klein.
    .
    How’s this:

    As is obvious from everything I’ve written over the past three years, I think the need to criminally prosecute those who authorized and ordered torture (as well as illegal surveillance) is absolute and non-negotiable (and, as I wrote earlier today, in the case of torture, criminal investigations are legally compelled).

    .
    Or put another way:

    to criminally prosecute those who authorized and ordered torture

    .
    Or maybe this will help:

    those who AUTHORIZED AND ORDERED torture

    .

  • gpanfile

    ahem… @didaktikos, yes, there is no equivalence between toking and torture… again as there is no equivalence between Nuremburg and what the CIA agents did. however, rule of law absolutists would be at least impelled to turn themselves in and do their time if it were civil disobedience and the laws were absolute… @MJones, sure, the people in power who authorized it should be brought to justice… no argument there… they won’t have the Nuremburg defense, either, as they were giving orders and not following them… my diatribe was about those who equated the CIA agents with the Nazis, and seemed by implication to say they should all be prosecuted as well… after all, they were the only ones following orders and they did the deed. look, peeps, i know how insane and off base cheney and the like were, and what a disgrace it has been and how it has hurt this nation in many ways, ok? i just have a problem with the high dudgeon people, all of this is a dirty business, and i am trying to look out for the scrubs at the bottom of the totem pole who always get screwed in these things, and who, like nicholson in a few good men, do the dirty work we all avoid so we can sit around moralizing after the fact. confine it to the higher ups and give amnesty to the lower downs and we’re all good here.

  • MJones

    @gpanfile
    .
    Look, I’m on your page wrt the “high dudgeon people” but my concern is that the whole conversation needs to be focused on the people who ordered and authorized the programs. When you bring in the rank and file, it is playing the game of the people who would muddy the issue on their own behalf. This is how they work — people call for accountability of the principals, and those principals turn the discussion to the rank and file in order to take the focus off of themselves. It’s a game that we shouldn’t allow them to play. Keep the focus on the principals and when and how they should be called to account.
    .
    I agree with you about the people at the “bottom of the totem pole” but I think that’s a mixed bag. Charles Graner, for example.
    .
    Finally, (I don’t know why these real life issues often seem to be likened to movies, I think that is grotesque) where you say about the people who “do the dirty work we all avoid so we can sit around moralizing after the fact.” I don’t accept that. Many of us have been screaming into the wilderness about this for years, literally YEARS. See my post above noting how we were the sole defenders of Valerie Plame, and the rank and file inside the CIA. And the principled military brass, for that matter, who were pushed out unceremoniously when they wouldn’t go along with the program. So if you think you are sitting around “moralizing after the fact” be my guest, and welcome aboard. What took you so long?
    .
    For myself, it is disheartening to realize that thanks to people like Joe Klein and his elite journalistic compadres, we cannot put a stop to these atrocities while they are happening. And it remains to be seen whether we can do it at all. That’s craven and cowardly, in my opinion. After all, Dick Cheney still walks among us, and is gladly given his national platform, even now, to make his case.

  • http://www.drasties.com/?p=7046 Drasties – Dutch on the World – World on the Dutch

    [...] that many people who advocate it barely bother to mask how overtly corrupt that mentality is.  Time’s Joe Klein yesterday (emphasis added): Actually, I will concede one thing to Greenwald: I’ve been opposed to [...]

  • preciselytruthful

    I’ll tell Klein what Greenwald told him: Go rob a bank and tell the cops that you were simply trying to make an “extra-legal” withdrawal.

    Then pray.

  • http://languages.oberlin.edu/hist293/blog/2009/05/06/why-the-new-torture-defense-is-a-good-offense/ Dirty Wars and Democracy » Blog Archive » Why the New Torture Defense Is a Good Offense

    [...] columnist Joe Klein opposes enforcing torture laws “for political reasons, mostly,” he recently wrote, to avoid detracting from [...]

  • http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/those-cia-employees-dont-look-pissed-that-obama-released-the-torture-memos/ Emptywheel » Those CIA Employees Don’t LOOK Pissed that Obama Released the Torture Memos

    [...] Village has been out in force declaring that Obama’s decision to release the torture memos will hurt the morale of CIA’s [...]

  • http://cms.salon.com/2009/04/21/prosecutions/ Obama recognizes: whether to prosecute is not his decision

    [...] that many people who advocate it barely bother to mask how overtly corrupt that mentality is.  Time‘s Joe Klein yesterday (emphasis [...]

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