Torture Is Widespread In Iraq

Well, bruises can occur just by slamming somebody against a wall, and even 3rd degree burns don’t necessarily result in death or major organ failure, so isn’t this all just “enhanced interrogation” and not “torture.”

Just askin’

So ~20k people died by execution, were 29% of all civilian deaths (17.5k people) or were 29% of those that were executed (5.8k people) get tortured?

-MBirchmeier

2 questions:
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Is there a link?
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How does break down by time period? Certainly incidents are down now?

And dare I ask? What determines whather someone is considered a ‘civillian’? I’m sure that confusion on that point is probably pretty intense.

sorry. just added the link.

And the point? Wide spread torture in Iraq so we’re not so bad?

that was a poorly written article. Was 60,481 the sample size? was that number the alleged total number of civilian deaths? Why no mention that most estimates put the actual death toll well in excess of 100,000?

I don’t see where the problem is. Unless they forgot to prepare some CYA memos this should be news.

Why not? We’re certainly in no position to tell them to do otherwise. Paging the Netherlands…

Actually, careful reading does make clear that the 60K figure is the size of the study. Again, my main point of curiosity is who gets counted as a civilian. After all Saddam had made sure that most citizens were armed and many of the folks who DID engage in combat were not members of any organized fighting force.
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There’s no doubt in my mind as well, that most people killed in air strike would be counted as combattants whether they were or not.
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There’s a lot that even very interested news consumers don’t really understand about Iraq.

Thanks for the link.

bruises, drill holes or burns
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C’mon, stop being cry-babies. Rummy already told everyone that the birth-pangs of democracy can be messy for a while. And if Obama’s cool with Rummy, than why aren’t the rest of you cool with Rummy?
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Sheesh.

describing the estimated 60,481 civilians….
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Assuming facts not in evidence.
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The story’s OK. Michael’s phrasing is misleading.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
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Current documented figure from their source is 91-99K.
Here’s the actual study:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/nejm-2009/

jsfox – I don’t think that’s the point at all. I think the point is to remind us of how bad it is and was over there, and to debunk the whole “EVERYTHING IS FINE STOP ASKING” meme.

Let me know when the ones responsible have their memos prepared and released so I can get fake outraged.

“EPA finds greenhouse gases pose a danger to health; first step to climate change regulations”
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http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2009/04/epa_takes_first_step_toward_climate_change_regs.php?ref=fpjr2
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Our fearless reporters are sure all over this one, aren’t they?

More detail:

Of the total of 91,358 Iraqi civilian deaths from armed violence recorded for this period, we excluded 10,027 deaths from prolonged violence (e.g., the two sieges of Fallujah and prolonged episodes of violence during the invasion of March 20, 2003, through April 30, 2003), and 20,850 deaths recorded only in aggregate reports from morgues and hospitals, since these deaths were not reliably linked to specific events of a weapon’s use.

since these deaths were not reliably linked to specific events of a weapon’s use.
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So, if the shooting victim is able to get to the hospital before expiring, he didn’t “officially” die? Or he may have just died of infected hemorrhoids or something other than being shot.
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I just love stats, Paul.

This stuff reminds me of what I heard about the “Five O’clock Follies” out of Saigon.

OT
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Remember when I told you about Michele Bachmann and Glenn Beck beating the one world currency drum as a dog whistle for the religious right? Confirmation.

Thank God we were smart enough to invade Iraq.
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Thank God for Judy Miller’s standards of journalism.

Miller was criticized for her reporting on whether Iraq had weapons of mass destruction (WMD). On September 7, 2002, Miller and Times reporter Michael R. Gordon reported the interception of metal tubes bound for Iraq. Her front-page story quoted unnamed “American officials” and “American intelligence experts” who said the tubes were intended to be used to enrich nuclear material, and cited unnamed “Bush administration officials” who claimed that in recent months, Iraq had “stepped up its quest for nuclear weapons and has embarked on a worldwide hunt for materials to make an atomic bomb.”[1]
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Miller added that “Mr. Hussein’s dogged insistence on pursuing his nuclear ambitions, along with what defectors described in interviews as Iraq’s push to improve and expand Baghdad’s chemical and biological arsenals, have brought Iraq and the United States to the brink of war.” Although Miller conceded that some intelligence experts found the information on Iraq’s weapons programs “spotty,” she did not report specific and detailed objections, including a report filed with the US government more than a year before Miller’s article appeared by retired Oak Ridge National Laboratory physicist, Houston G. Wood III, who concluded that the tubes were not meant for centrifuges.
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Shortly after Miller’s article was published, Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell and Donald Rumsfeld all appeared on television and pointed to Miller’s story as a partial basis for going to war. Subsequent analyses by various agencies all concluded that there was no way the tubes could have been used for uranium-enrichment centrifuges. Miller said of the controversy, “[M]y job isn’t to assess the government’s information and be an independent intelligence analyst myself. My job is to tell readers of The New York Times what the government thought about Iraq’s arsenal.” Some have criticized this position, believing that a crucial function of a journalist is to independently assess information, question sources and analyze information before reporting it.[2]

Thank God Judy Miller wasn’t “taking sides” in a public dispute over whether the nation of Iraq threatened the United States or not.
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That’s not the job of the press corps in a democracy, no matter what the estimated 60,481 civilians may have thought about it.

All of these deaths, by US hands and the hands of the evil we’ve unleashed. For the sake of this study, we’ll casually ignore thousands of deaths because those dead would interfere with the figures we’re trying to compile. It takes my breath away. What an amazing and dreadful Pandora’s Box we’ve opened!
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I will never forget that all of this was completely unnecessary. This hell that we’ve created was accurately predicted by many critics of the war before the invasion ever started. Unfortunately, those same critics were ridiculed and ignored by our politicians and the press. To this day, many of the critics who got it right are still being marginalized, while those that got it completely wrong are treated with respect.
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Now, instead of being horrified and ashamed of the evil we’ve unleashed, some (who no doubt consider themselves to be fine moral followers of the teachings of Christ) argue about whether suffocating people with water is really torture. And others argue about whether the Iraqis have been sufficiently ‘thankful’ for what we’ve done for (to) them.
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Incredible!

To the claim that sleep deprivation works and isn’t harmful TPM brings you the author of the material the Bushies used to make that assesment.
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http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/04/sleep_expert_surprised_and_saddened_to_find_resear.php

“To the claim that sleep deprivation works and isn’t harmful…”
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You can go days without water and weeks without food. Three days without sleep will cause something resembling psychosis in almost anyone. Sensory deprivation does about the same. Even the physical punishments are designed for the psychological effect, mostly feelings of fear, helplessness and despair. People who talk about the permanent physical harm from these techniques are either covering their immoral asses or they understand nothing about the purpose of torture or the resulting harm.

The purpose of individually executed torture by the competent is the fulfillment of sadism.
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The purpose of systemically administered torture is confession.

“The purpose of systemically administered torture is confession.”

Usually, and certainly in this case, false confession to justify systematic torture. Which takes us right back to sadism.

Just back from the US, where I thankfully survived daily mass shootings and days of “Pirates” coverage. Seen up close, as from afar, in context, my “homeland” looks as absurd & menacing as ever. The media may lead the charge, but admit it–which outrages most Americans more, a few innocent sailors off the coast of Somalia or Abu Ghraib? As for the figures, 60,000 or 90,000, what difference does it make? They’re not real human beings. If you’re not carrying a US passport you’re something less. Imagine: preemptively attacking a sovereign nation that had nothing to do with 911, posed no threat to us, and causing the death of so many. And wholly without accountability, or, apprarently, much reflection.

jcapan: we are obviously a very sick country. Pray for us, we’re trying to get better.

And don’t forget, we have a mostly corrupt political, financial and media establishment to overcome. Pray very hard.

Oooh, quite the carnage breakdown, but wouldn’t it be more instructive to note who was killing/torturing whom? Granted, that’s not always easy to determine. Was it Shia killing Sunni? Was it Sunni killing Shia? Was it criminal gang violence? Was it Iraqi “security” forces? Was it American soldiers? Was it Iranian wolves among the now completely pacified and Americanized Iraqi sheep (my bet)?
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Would it be possible to simply note who the greatest instigators were and form a plan or a “lesson learned” from that? Otherwise it’s just numbers that bounce around in the back of a drawer. It’s like this was a natural disaster. You can’t bring a tsunami to justice and evidently there’s no one accountable for these crimes. The dead are no more than toe tags by this account.

Torture must be better defined. For instance – is it torture to have a feral child raised by Republicans?. …………..

http://thefiresidepost.com/2009/04/19/feral-children-raised-by-republicans/

Do not be so naïve as to believe that torture is widespread only in Iraq. This is a global if not a historically long-established phenomenon. In some countries, torture has become a culture, always in the name of national security. The only difference, if there is, lies in the degree of severity, but certainly not in kind.

Basically, the world is made up of oppressors and the oppressed. By instilling fear of torture among the oppressed, the oppressors continue to reign with iron fist to keep their power.

Torture is normally carried out in secret and often ends in death which is likely to be covered up immediately and perpetually, making “missing” persons as good as “dead” persons.

As long as people crave for power, torture will be the convenient instrument – the dirty means to an evil end. (tan boon tee, btt1943@yahoo.com)