Steve Schmidt’s Warning To The GOP On Gay Marriage

The top strategist for John McCain’s presidential campaign spoke today to the Log Cabin Republicans in Washington. He raised alarms about the dire state of the Republican Party, and argued that a continued refusal  to recognize the civil rights of gay and lesbian couples would spell further doom for the GOP.

[W]hile I think projections of a political re-alignment are premature based on the results of two elections, I would rather be in the Democrats’ shoes than ours.  Their coalition is expanding.  Ours is shrinking.  Their vote share is increasing among voter segments that are growing.  Ours is not.  The rapid growth of the Hispanic-American population, for instance, could soon cost Republicans the entire Southwest if we don’t recover our previous share of their vote.  Had Senator McCain not been the Republican nominee in 2008, I’m convinced we would have lost Arizona.  It’s very hard to see how we put together 270 electoral votes without the Southwest.

As a percentage of the total vote, younger voters didn’t really increase in the last election.  But the Democrats’ margin with those voters certainly did.  In short, we were crushed by the Obama campaign with voters under 30.  President Obama was a uniquely attractive candidate to younger voters, in matters of style as much as substance.  And maybe as those voters grow older and acquire greater responsibilities they will develop a better appreciation for Republican values of limited government, fiscal discipline, low taxes and a strong defense.  That has happened in the past.

But even if they do, I doubt they will abandon social attributes that distinguish them from older voters; among them, a greater acceptance of people who find happiness in relationships with members of the same sex.  And I believe Republicans should re-examine the extent to which we are being defined by positions on issues that I don’t believe are among our core values, and that put us at odds with what I expect will become over time, if not a consensus view, then the view of a substantial majority of voters.

Read the whole speech here. It is worth the time. The heart of his argument on gay marriage is this:

It can be argued, although I disagree, that marriage should remain the legal union of a man and a woman because changing it to admit same sex unions would undermine the most basic institution of a well ordered society.  It can be argued according to the creeds and convictions of religious belief, which I respect.  But it cannot be argued that marriage between people of the same sex is un-American or threatens the rights of others.  On the contrary, it seems to me that denying two consenting adults of the same sex the right to form a lawful union that is protected and respected by the state denies them two of the most basic natural rights affirmed in the preamble of our Declaration of Independence – liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  That, I believe, gives the argument of same sex marriage proponents its moral force.

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  • FlownOver

    Assuming you were there (or had access to a telephone),what were the reactions or responses from any other GOP figures of note?

  • redraven937

    Uh oh. A Republican with a functioning brain and more than an ounce of empathy. If they keep this up, 2012 might actually be close.
    .
    That aside, here’s to hoping that this completely rational and long overdue change of heart is not the last. Next up: health care, immigration, education, war on drugs, welfare, etc.

  • Paul-no not that one

    The other “figures of note” was Megan McCain I think.
    .
    What is left of the republican party can’t change on such a core issue. Heck did all of even the Log Cabiners support his call for Gay Marriage?

  • jsfox

    Steve, you are in trouble now. You are about to get “Rushed.” But props for the courage to state the obvious.

  • Paul-no not that one

    The Chief Strategist didn’t seem to have much influence with his candidate. McCain, for all his reputation as a straight talking moderate, was against gay marriage and civil unions.
    .
    I’ll say this for McCain, he knew his supporters.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    PNNTO
    .
    I don’t know if you were being snarky but there actually are gay Republicans who don’t want a push for same sex marriage. Seriously

  • stuartzechman

    Michael Scherer:
    .
    After reading the entire text:
    .
    If more Republicans argued their positions in the manner of Steve Schmidt’s, I’d consider voting for one –even if I disagreed with some arguments.

  • Paul-no not that one

    SG, I know. That was my (poorly made) point. The idea that the republican party is going to move on this issue is fantasy.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    And maybe as those voters grow older and acquire greater responsibilities they will develop a better appreciation for Republican values of limited government, fiscal discipline, low taxes and a strong defense. That has happened in the past.
    .
    This may have been true in the past, because even though they never offered budgets that reflected limited government and fiscal discipline, they could always point to Democratic control of the presidency or the Congress thwarting them at implementing their “values”. WIthout these two qualities, the low taxes claim is equally false, because running deficits are taxes deferred, not taxes lowered.

    But when they were actually unchecked by Democrats, they demonstrated that these “values” were simple lies. They like their government big, intrusive and in support of an oligarchy of elites, granted access to the Treasury and granted unchecked ability to cheat consumers and laborers.
    .
    Moreover, the national security claim could well be eliminated as well, as the cost of disastrous imperialism mounts. And, of course, the Obama administration is engaged in a process that will bring to the public eye the degree to which “national defense” is simply another euphemism for graft.
    .
    Oh,and of course Schmidt is right. The pursuit of the politics of hatred of the Other will be more and more unavailing as the base ages, and is not replaced by a new generation of fear, ignorance and hatred.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    What I find more fascinating than anything is the degree to which people like Steve Schmidt think that it’s important to match his party’s platform to match what voters want, while so many Republican figures seem far more interested in sticking to the core tenets of their faith.
    While I have some sympathy for conservative economic arguments and will find it interesting if there’s a contigent of Republicans that backs away from their more devisive culture-war positions, the fact that Steve Schmidt shared a bus with Randy Scheunemann and actively promoted the absolute worst foreign policy ever executed in my lifetime, absolutely disqulaifies him from consideration of someone who’s opinion I would give a rat’s a$$ about.

  • rose83

    Schmidt is obviously not stupid yet his candidate’s campaign was the worst in my living memory. I’m honestly not sure he was fully committed to winning.
    .
    SG, I know. That was my (poorly made) point. The idea that the republican party is going to move on this issue is fantasy.
    .
    P-NNTO, eventually the GOP will be forced to move on social issues because they will be a permanent minority otherwise. That’s Schdmidt’s point. But I agree that they’re nowhere near changing yet. The process will probably start in 2013.

  • hellslittlestangel

    Does anyone here actually know any Log Cabin Republicans? I find it hard to believe that such a group exists in any numbers. Obviously none of them are single-issue voters, but what are the issues that drive them to a party which so fundamentally, platformically rejects them? Taxes? Guns? Granted, I find it difficult to believe anyone with healthy brain functions would be a Republican (despite knowing a few who are genuinely decent people), and I know that there are people who act against their own self-interest, but gay Republicans? Anyone know of any good documentary films on this group?

  • Paul-no not that one

    “While I have some sympathy for conservative economic arguments”
    .
    Here’s the rub, for me, when was the last time a republican made a serious conservative economic argument?

  • Paul-no not that one

    Rose-depending on what you mean by “process” I think you may be wildly optimistic. (That’s a compliment)
    Yes they “have to change” to become viable in the future but exactly who are the people who need to change? And how likely are they to? Bottom up or top down?

  • 53_3

    I’m wondering if maybe, without saying so, the GOP ship is about to go down with all hands.
    .
    Witness yesterdays 180 by Jindal, the climbdown by Perry, the failure of the teabag thing, and Halperin actually acknowledging Obama’s skills:
    http://thepage.time.com/halperins-take-why-obama-is-exceptionally-good-at-his-job/
    .
    And here is more:
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/14/borger.republicans/index.html

  • hellslittlestangel

    …eventually the GOP will be forced to move on social issues because they will be a permanent minority otherwise.
    .
    rose83: No doubt. One day the Republicans will support the rights of gay American with the same conviction and sincerity they’ve given to their outreach to people of color.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    What all this discussion misses is the way that actual positions on issues and the labels we apply to them slide around. The question of the day is which faction will eventually claim the mantle “Republican” and which one will splinter off into something new? I’m guessing that the Wingnuts will get to keep the name.

  • rose83

    Rose-depending on what you mean by “process” I think you may be wildly optimistic. (That’s a compliment)
    Yes they “have to change” to become viable in the future but exactly who are the people who need to change? And how likely are they to? Bottom up or top down?

    .
    P-NNTO, don’t you mean pessimistic? It’s better for progressives if they wait 20 years to change!
    It looks like they are heading to a historic 1964-style defeat in 2012. I have to think that people like Schmidt will have more influence after a defeat that’s proved them right.
    .
    rose83: No doubt. One day the Republicans will support the rights of gay American with the same conviction and sincerity they’ve given to their outreach to people of color.
    .
    hellslittlestangel, yes that’s what I was trying to say! They’ll use code words that appeal to homophobic voters but don’t completely alienate other voters who are uncomfortable with blatant legal inequality. It’s the difference between Goldwater and Nixon.
    .
    They need to make their prejudice more subtle to win elections.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Rose-
    .
    There will be a tipping point sometime in the next few years. A lot depends on whether the religious right once again retreats from politics. Dobson has made clear that they’ve been jobbed, played for suckers. Schmidt’s speech reiterates that there is no real commitment to their positions.
    .
    If they don’t walk away, then there is at least one, and maybe two fissures. But in any model, it’s hard to see the longstanding beneficiaries, the monied elite commanding any real following.
    .
    Ultimately you might have a Bloomberg/Schwarzenegger Republican independent unity party. The only defense the traditional Republicans have, the elected officials in DC is that the media has to have a “she said” for their narrative frame. So they will do all they can to legitimize torturers, opponents of the Constitution and outright nutjobs holding elective office with an R on their foreheads.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    hellslittleangel
    .
    There are also “Hip Hop” Republicans made up largely of young minority Republicans. Yes I am serious. Both groups are larger than what you would think. For both I think they thing is they agree with the GOP rhetoric about small government and low taxes and feel they can change them from within on the other issues like homophobia and racism. So far doesn’t look like either group is making much of a dent though.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla
  • 53_3

    This is totally OT, just jumping in to post if for your entertainment:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14851926/displaymode/1107/s/2/framenumber/18/

  • hellslittlestangel

    sg: The human brain being just about infinitely configurable, I don’t really disbelieve in the existence of any group. I personally know a liberal Republican — intelligent, a nice guy, and yet a member of the party of Palin. But it’s one thing to hang with a group whose fiscal policies you disagree with, and another to hang with one that explicitly wants to treat you like a second-class citizen and implicitly despises you (by turning a blind eye to the homophobia of many of its leaders). Wouldn’t it be a WHOLE lot easier to change the Democratic party’s rhetoric on taxes from within?
    I’m serious in wondering if there are any good documentaries about the LCR — the contradiction fascinates me. (And I don’t buy the “self-loathing” stereotype.)

  • Paul-no not that one

    It should be mentioned that the republicans for the last few election cycles have used “Defense of Marriage” ballot measures as Get Out The Vote tools.
    This is not just (or even) a “cultural” issue for the republicans it’s an electoral lifeline. They understand those are their voters. To pretend otherwise is silly.

  • stuartzechman

    There are also “Hip Hop” Republicans made up largely of young minority Republicans. Yes I am serious.
    .
    Come on…

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    SZ
    .
    http://hiphoprepublican.blogspot.com/index.html
    .
    And lest you think they exist only online
    .

    .
    Now the video says pt 2 because in pt 1 a different guy went crazy and wanted to fight Cenk.

  • rose83

    jayackroyd, good points. Perhaps instead of looking at 1964 it might be better to look about a hundred years earlier.
    .
    The GOP will change and/or be replaced by another party.

  • Ivy_B

    Didn’t click sg’s links yet because I have to sign off for tonight, but wanted to note that at least in Philadelphia there are a number of blacks who were very supportive of Bush. A former Eagle player who now has a church was very vocal in pressing the “moral” issues of the Republicans. Obama’s candidacy kept that from being a loud voice this past election, but I think it explains one reason Obama got a smaller than expected vote in the primary in the city.

  • hellslittlestangel

    Ivy_B makes a good point. I often forget the power of religion to pervert thinking.

  • choska

    Paul-no is right. The Republican’s don’t have policy positions or proposals to address issues facing Americans because, if they actually solved an issue they claimed to care about, they would lose their proclaimed reason for existing.
    .
    Take abortion, for example. We know how to reduce abortion rates: teach kids how not to get pregnant by using birth control. Republicans say they want to reduce abortions but taking steps to reduce unwanted pregnancies would deprive them of a tool for scaring people into voting for them.
    .
    Bottom line is that the Republicans – and the people that vote for them – are only motivated by fear. 80 years ago it was black people and Communists. After the Soviet Union collapsed the conservatives decided to be afraid of Bill Clinton and gay people. Then came the Muslims. It would be nice if Republicans had enough courage not to wet themselves every time somebody not like them took a breath.
    .
    Who cares if gay people get married (or if marginal income tax rates going back up to where they were under Saint Ronny). Sadly the conservatives in this country have been reduced to morons like George Will who is currently on a jihad against the wearing of denim, when he isn’t lying about climate change; and people like Gov Rick Perry who wants Texas to secede in one moment and then proclaims that Democrats are “un-American.”
    .
    The Republican Party, on its current course and speed, will be dead as a political force by 2012. It already has ceased to exist in the Northeast. It could be dead on the West Coast in a few years.

  • bobcn1

    How come every time I think I’m seeing a GOPer begin to behave in a principled way, information comes out that proves he’s just acting in his own self interest?
    .
    From the NY Times (via Atrios):
    ‘Mr. Schmidt, who has a sister who is a lesbian, plans to say that there is nothing about gay marriage that is un-American or that threatens the rights of others and that in fact it is in line with conservative principles.’
    .
    Wouldn’t it be nice to see one of these guys do the right thing simply because it’s the right thing to do?

  • viciousmaniac

    George Will who is currently on a jihad against the wearing of denim
    .
    That essay of his will likely be my most favorite this year.
    .
    The best part is when he complained about people over the age of 18 who play videogames being allowed to vote. Yes in Will’s America, it’s the gulags if you wear jeans in public and play Minesweeper on your PC. Pure awesome.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    OT — Tweetie was in rare form tonight. I know he can irk the last nerve but when he gets stuck on something nutty the wingnuts have done he can be like a dog with a bone. Best sentence ever, “The people that complain the most have the least to complain about.”
    .
    Top ten donor states all blue states. Eight out of ten top recipient states red states.

  • sacredh

    hellslittleangel: I met a Log Cabin republican this past fall while at a friend’s house to watch a debate. He was semi-closeted. No one where he worked knew and only a few close friends. I only had a chance to talk to him for about 25 minutes because I had to leave for work. He was a fiscal conservative that hated Bush, couldn’t stand Limbaugh/Coulter/Hannity, anti any kind of drug, religious but not a church goer (good luck finding a tolerant church here in the Bible Belt), very big on tax cuts for anyone at his income level or above but scared of Palin. It was the second Obama-McCain debate. I got the feeling that he was going to sit out the election. I think he was a cousin of my friend’s wife. If he was typical of Log Cabin republicans, I think most of them didn’t vote either.

  • mredct

    I know a number of gay republicans – I don’t know if they are LCR.

    One is very cynical. He votes republican because he thinks its all a quest for power and the R’s protect his wallet. He’s wealthy and so are most of his clients. GWB got him to vote for Obama though, possibly the first time he’s voted for a Dem.

    A few others are from working-class Italian Catholic backgrounds. Their concerns seem to be about national security. They could care less that gays are used as a red herring by the republicans. One of them scared the crap out of me once when he announced we should “nuke Mecca”.

  • yoshiattack

    I would call you guys out for your self-indulgent pronouncements, but I’m overcome by a very sudden case of vulnerability when I realize the same thing happens on the other side.
    -
    Carry on. Everybody’s a winbag. :(

  • Cliff

    And maybe as those voters grow older and acquire greater responsibilities they will develop a better appreciation for Republican values of limited government, fiscal discipline, low taxes and a strong defense.
    .
    Wait, so when I turn 40 I’m going to wake up and suddenly forget all the lies, deception, murder, torture, theft, incompetence, imperialism, stupidity, threats, smears, hypocrisy, moralizing, fear-mongering, back-stabbing, corruption, profiteering, calumny, racism, hatred, and nepotism?

  • sacredh

    mredct: Maybe it was the same guy. I have very seldom met anyone that I took such an immediate dislike to. He had on a basketball jersey of my favorite team but could only name one player (Lebron James). He either liked the colors or else it was a disguise. Within the first 10 minutes he managed to bring up Muslim, socialist, flag pins, Rezko, Wright and Michelle not being proud to be an American. For being a member of a group that has had such hate directed at them, he was one of the most intolerant people I’d ever met.

  • Cliff

    Wait, I misspoke – “murder” is a bit of a stretch. I apologize.

  • hellslittlestangel

    Hmm. I did a little research. Their big issue seems to be gay marriage. They feature Arnold Schwarzenegger prominently on their home page. They have chapters in all 50 states (the Alabama Log Cabin Republicans — my mind reels). They’re dedicated to “building an inclusive GOP,” which I’d say is on a par with building a watertight sieve.
    Man, I thought Adult Babies were a weird subculture…

  • Cliff

    Also:
    .
    The best part is when he complained about people over the age of 18 who play videogames being allowed to vote.
    .
    Maybe I don’t think bow-tied liars should be allowed to vote. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, Will.

  • sacredh

    yoshiattack: I used to able to hold my breath for over two minutes. Windbag indeed! LOL.

  • formerlyjames

    sacredh, not to cause a firestorm here, but all gays are not necessarily known for tolerence. I emphasize ALL. Many are, but many are total freaked out neurotics as a result of ostracism and occasional self loathing. As for the issue of gay marriage, my view is that it is more about dignity and respect, if not acceptance, than anything. The Log Cabin repugthugs are really no different than the rest. Delusional.

  • formerlyjames

    By “the rest”, I mean the rest of the repugthugs.

  • Friar Tuck

    yoshi, your comment is so good I won’t try to add to it.

  • formerlyjames

    OT, but, the Log Cabin repugs seem to be moving slow on the thread now. How long can the policy of allowing Cuban-Americans unrestricted travel to Cuba, and denying all other Americans such travel last? And how ironic is it that the Cuban-American fascists in Miami, who have extended the insane U.S. treatment of Cuba, to be the beneficiaries?

  • sacredh

    formerlyjames: I’ve only met maybe 8-9 people that I knew were gay and that guy was the only one I had met that came across like a bigot. I have little patience for any bigot. He did seem to be a little neurotic, but living in an area where country music and gun racks are more common than not might make anyone who’s liberal neurotic. Except myself of course. I’m just eccentric.

  • yutsano

    I played tuba in college, beat that Sacred!
    -
    I’m acquainted online with a couple of LCRs (philosophically not necessarily by membership) and they have pretty much similar psychoplogical make-ups to conservatives of the straight variety: rigidity of opinion, deference to authority. But what strikes me is that they really can’t defend their position in a party which shows them such open antipathy. It’s like they think they’re members of the cool clique but they’re really just the running gag.
    -
    The GOP is a LOOOOONG way from being able to accept gays and lesbians. Too many Christian rightists have enjoyed their power trip riding with the Republicans to loosen their stranglehold on the party that easily. I don’t think Schmidt is necessarily spitting in the wind here because changes start with one person, but I think the GOP needs to hit rock bottom before a fundamental shift like accepting gay right will require will occur. The old ways are still too dominant in their culture just yet.

  • mredct

    sacredh-
    I think as the stigma of being gay has been reduced I think more people are out that in the past would have been closeted, married, the whole nine. In the end the gay population is just a subset of the population at large.

    The wealthy friend I mentioned above likes to make the joke that he never believed 10% of the population was gay until he got online and realized half the gay men in CT are married.

  • formerlyjames

    yutsano, I agree with all, except the point about Schmidt spitting against the wind. He indeed is.

  • formerlyjames

    sacredh and mredct, I don’t know how many gays or suspects I have known. But I do know that many were in hetro marriages. One had 4 kids.

  • yutsano

    sacredh, not to cause a firestorm here, but all gays are not necessarily known for tolerence. I emphasize ALL.
    -
    I sincerely hope you misplaced a not somewhere in that sentence FJ. Otherwise you’ve painted a very broad and rather intolerant brush there.

  • formerlyjames

    My attempt to hyjack the thread to discuss Cuba has apparently failed miserably. My bad.

  • formerlyjames

    yutsano, I feared that I may do that, and it was not my intention. My point is that intolerence slithers amongst the gay community as easily as any.

  • sacredh

    yutsano: I used to swim across the Ohio River so that I could jump off the mooring towers. I’ll concede on the musical instruments because the only thing I could ever play was my stereo. I just don’t understand how a gay person could belong to a party that openly and proudly makes denying rights to them a part of their party’s platform. I applaud Schmidt for taking a stance that is obviously going to go over like a lead balloon in his party. He’s not going to win many friends (or clients) by taking that position. The republicans will not only have to have hit rock bottom before they change, they’re going to have to fracture because gay rights is just not something their base can philosophically change. It just isn’t in their nature.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    I just wanted to correct something about Steve Schmidt. Yes his sister is gay but she has been for quite awhile and he has been for gay rights and gay marriage for quite awhile. Although this was his first major speech on the subject, behind the scenes during the campaign he was the guy who went to talk to the LCR when McCain stiffed them and tried to smooth everything over. AMC has blogged about this before and so from all appearances he wasn’t making this speech in a self serving manner but instead truly believes that people should be able to marry whomever they want to. By the same token because he is a Republican he wanted to make sure that he made it known that this is a losing issue for them until they change but I believe he was even either working behind the scenes in the No on 8 campaign and or voted against Prop 8 (I know he has said he voted against it but I can’t remember if he actually helped organize against it)

  • stuartzechman

    SG:
    .
    Holy crap, you’re right.

  • yutsano

    yutsano, I feared that I may do that, and it was not my intention. My point is that intolerence slithers amongst the gay community as easily as any.
    -
    Some of the most outright and outrageously racists statements I have ever heard have come from the mouths of gay men. I understand quite well the undercurrent of racism that pervades the gay community. We’re on the same page, just caught up in our words I guess. :)
    -
    BTW I have dumped bigoted men before. Close-mindedness is one of the biggest turn-offs I have. And I was told on a love personality test once that I should date someone more conservative than me. Go figure.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    SZ
    .
    Right about what?

  • sacredh

    I married women more conservative than me twice. I think that’s because I’ve never met anyone more liberal than me. I actually threatened to call the ACLU if my homeroom teacher (former minister) didn’t stop reading the Bible in 7th grade. The jerk made me stand outside in the hall because I wouldn’t bow my head. The superintendent of the district had to come to the school that day to settle things. I won. I also nailed his daughter two years later. Of course almost everyone else did too so it wasn’t a big deal.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    I just had a deep thought that was totally off topic. On the one hand you have conservatives laughing off torture and claiming it wasn’t painful at all, on the other hand you have other conservatives saying the torture was so effective that it stopped future attacks. Now the truth is they are both wrong but even if that wasn’t crystal clear, they can’t really have it both ways.

  • formerlyjames

    RWers slice it any way they like it, not matter if it makes sense or not. They wouldn’t know right from wrong if one bit them in the ass. I just watched Newt on Faux telling how the terrorist problem lie on the Mexican border, not Canada. Canada is no problem to Newt. Yet, yet, yet, Newt, Mr. Speaker, Sir (as they call him on Faux) the only terrorist incidents have been on the Canadian border. The one in Washington to blow up LAX, and the one in the east to blow up something. None, zero, zilch from Mexico. Not to mention that the 9/11 murderers wern’t illegals at all, and came through Kennedy, sweet and happy. Newt has a newt brain.

  • nhautamaki

    Looks to me like all of the important elections will be taking place in the Democratic primaries for at least the next 6+ years. I like that America has primaries, because it ensures that democracy still happens even when one of the parties totally discredits itself and winds up in the political wilderness. Having primaries serves the same purpose as having more than 2 parties does in other democratic nations. I’ll admit I was a little worried about you guys becoming a one party state but when I remembered your primary system I was greatly comforted.
    .
    Just remember that in the long run, power corrupts, and it’s critical to have a system in place by which corrupted officials can be replaced. If I was an American, that’s where my primary concern over the long term health of my democracy would be right now. In re-establishing a viable second party, and in the meantime making sure the primary system is protected so that viable choices can still exist.

  • stuartzechman

    SG:
    .
    Right about those people to which you linked!

  • formerlyjames

    If you really want to keep up with the RW hot button, panty wading issues, you need to tune in to ABC Family channel, 700 Club, 9 central. Pat Robertson brings us up to date every day, and they are on top on all the news. Tonight, the lead was Cuba. Reverend Pat (former Presidential candidate), observed as to how Cuba and liberal U.S. university professors were the only communists left in the world. Later, he commended China for buying metals to replace dollars. ??? Confused? Just a matter of the squirrel behavior I pointed out earlier. China is, of course, still fully communist. But not convenient for Robertson to recognize at the moment. Guess he forgot that matter of Viet Nam and N. Korea, too, but that wouldn’t have fit into his Cuba diatribe. After assaulting HSA as unpatriotic for the memo about military recruitment, he switched to applaud Isreali policy in opposition to the US west bank position (that’s not unpatriotic in Robertson’s world). Folks, you want to follow the incidious RWnut guerilla warfare tactics on the Family Channel. Faux Knews probably gets their programming from the holy reverend. ABC issues a disclaimer before and after the program stating that it does not express the views of ABC. Ain’t that a hoot?

  • nhautamaki

    formerlyjames: China isn’t really communist in anything but name at this point, nor has it been for at least 20 years. China remains a 1-party state, but honestly in its current form it would be more accurately described as fascist if anything. About 40 years ago at the height of the cultural revolution, China was certainly communist. The rich and well-educated were shipped en-masse to prison camps to be re-educated. The goal was to show them the glories and the realities of the simple peasant life that they profited from without ever experiencing first hand. It was fueled by a retributionist desire to punish the wealthy elites for being wealthy–as communist a notion as one could come up with. But it proved absolutely disastrous for Chinese society, and was completely abandoned by Mao’s successor Deng. Current day China revels in capitalistic ideals and even excesses. There are very little consumer or labour protection laws. There are almost no taxes. There is no welfare, no public health care. There is rigid ideology and extreme nationalism based on victimhood, and an utter and complete unwillingness to acknowledge or apologise for past mistakes. In short, modern day China is a republican’s wet dream. So I find it refreshingly consistent for a right-wing commentator to praise China for a change.

  • somepeoplelikeit

    I think there are alot of Republicans out there like my father. I would not call him racist, but the look on his face the day I brought a black girl home told me we were not on the same page.
    .
    They don’t hate gays, they just believe the devil has deceived them. That gays are good people, but confused.
    .
    Yes the crazies are many and loud. I navigate them daily. But many are good, smart, faithful people. They are conservative people that believe in some of the core tenets of the conservative party. The problem is they are being lied to. But what do they do? Jump in the gay/black party and turn their back on all they’ve known?
    .
    Obviously the people I speak of are getting older, time, as ever, will solve this issue. For the most part, younger people don’t put much stake in race/orientation regardless of their fiscal beliefs.
    .
    But someone or something will step up to fill the void, where fiscal conservatives and social liberals can meet.

  • yutsano

    Current day China revels in capitalistic ideals and even excesses. There are very little consumer or labour protection laws. There are almost no taxes. There is no welfare, no public health care. There is rigid ideology and extreme nationalism based on victimhood, and an utter and complete unwillingness to acknowledge or apologise for past mistakes.
    -
    And even there they learn fast. As part of their stimulus program, China is proposing a national health service similar to the English model if I’m not mistaken (I can’t seem to find the link to the exact model proposed) and are enacting consumer safety protections as fast as the Party can enact them. China’s number one domestic concern is stability. If even a tenth of their population were to show discord that’s still over third of the US population. The Chinese government has to keep its people either happy or scared, and right now they’re opting for scared. But scared doesn’t put food on the table and doesn’t keep your child from getting sick. They are enacting good social policies, but to call it enlightened self-interest is being generous.

  • formerlyjames

    nhautamaki, ok, thanks for raining on my parade. You’re right, but still, the ruling party is simply evolved from communism, a hybrid. Big circle from communism to fascism, meet at the top. Still, my point of Robertson talking nonsense stands. Viet Nam, N. Korea, and communist parties throughout the world, Russia, Italy, France. For that matter, the Cuba communism that he derides is not what it was in 1959. The main point is that I can watch 1 hour of Robertson and get a full day of Faux, and that it is incidious appearing on the Family Channel, jumping into the middle of clean family programing, not fully up front as a RW hangout. Anyway, yeah, you got me.

  • formerlyjames

    nhautamaki, btw, thanks. You too yutsano. Good night.

  • nhautamaki

    Yutsano: Personally I think Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao are the greatest leadership team to so far emerge in the 21st century (not counting Obama-Biden, as 2 and a half months are very hard to compare to 9 and a half years). Now whatever you ascribe their motivations to, I think it’s important to give credit where credit is due. Hu and Wen have had the hardest job on Earth and have done it brilliantly. I think, and I hope, that they will go down in history with the likes of Ghandi, Roosevelt, Lincoln, Churchill; as brilliant leaders that have done so much for their people. The fact that Americans traditionally consider Chinese their ‘enemies’, ideologically and geo-politically, greatly colours a rational assessment of the challenges met and overcome by those two. I cannot point to a single thing they have done and condemn it, based on the alternatives they had available and the consequences they faced for even a tiny misjudgement.
    .
    The simple fact is that at no time in history has the quality of life of so many people so dramatically improved in so short a time. And against such massive odds to boot.

  • apollyon07

    “Here’s the rub, for me, when was the last time a republican made a serious conservative economic argument?”
    .
    Ron Paul, basically every day.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    apollyon07
    .
    Ron Paul’s economic argument sucks. Its great for building up college kids who don’t really know much about the economy to be fans of his but it isn’t based on anything that actually happens in the real world. As a matter of fact while there are things that Dr Paul makes sense on like drug laws, gay marriage, and pulling away from the MIC, perhaps his worst subject area IS the economy. Hollering abolish the Fed and going to the gold standard does not a sound economic policy make.

  • apollyon07

    I didn’t say whether his economic arguments were good or not (I think many of them are), I just said he made them.
    .
    Don’t you think it would be better for the dollar to based off of something other than thin air like it is now?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Gold has no more or less intrinsic value than paper money. It’s only the consensus of individuals that give any currency any value whatsoever.

  • nhautamaki

    apollyon07: The quote asked for serious arguments. Ron Paul wants to privatize everything I do mean everything. After Enron, you’d have thought people would have learned not to take the privatization of certain things seriously…

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Returning to the gold standard is absurd, truly. Yeah its better for the dollar to be based on something and it is, but trying to base it on a hard and fast price for gold would pretty effectively destroy wealth in this country on a massive scale. And the truth is Ron Paul only advocates it because he knows it will never happen.

    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    Nhautamaki — why would you think that people who are as adept as conservatives at divorcing themselves from reality would learn any from a set of outcomes that they can simply categorize as liberal propaganda?
    .
    These people aren’t doomed to repeat history because they’re more likely to revise it.
    .
    Patrick Moynihan may have correctly determined that everyone being entitled to their own opinion were constrained by a single set of facts. However, I don’t think he anticipated that conservatives faced with facts that contradicted their opinions would adopt an alternate reality with little resemblance to the truth.

  • nhautamaki

    Dee–I guess in my defence I should say that I was speaking figuratively, and not in terms of genuine expectations =p

  • 53_3

    I think besides that, Ron Paul isn’t much different than any other in the ‘let nature take it’s course’ camp.
    .
    Party, the motivation is Social Darwinism, which I place not far from some of the worst of ideologies, and a continuation of Free Market philosophies, which have been demonstrated to not work. Just like people have the freedom to fail, markets have the freedom to collaps…
    .
    I don’t think for one second that really, any conservative solution is relevant right now, because, at least for the moment smaller government, lower taxes, etc etc are not workable solutions.
    .
    I think that we will always need a conservative counterbalance to the excesses that could come about, they really cannot avoid the basic truth that conservatism is not the solution to the problems we have right now.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Zubayda was waterboarded 83 times in a month. So much for its limited use. And as emptywheel asks, if its so effective why did it take 83 times?
    .
    http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/18/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-was-waterboarded-183-times-in-one-month/

  • Ivy_B

    And it was 183 in another month, would love the answer to “if it’s so effective why did it take 83 [plus 183] times?”

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Ivy_B
    .
    I believe the 183 times was for KSM. But nobody pretty much has any sympathy for him. But it has been proved that Zubaydah wasn’t the high level guy the govt tried to make him out to be. How could it be effective at all after 10 or 20 times? Unbelievable.

  • yutsano

    Personally I think Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao are the greatest leadership team to so far emerge in the 21st century (not counting Obama-Biden, as 2 and a half months are very hard to compare to 9 and a half years). Now whatever you ascribe their motivations to, I think it’s important to give credit where credit is due. Hu and Wen have had the hardest job on Earth and have done it brilliantly. I think, and I hope, that they will go down in history with the likes of Ghandi, Roosevelt, Lincoln, Churchill; as brilliant leaders that have done so much for their people.
    -
    I don’t think they will be acknowledged as such, and this is why: Tibet. China is trying so hard to paint this as merely an internal affair without recognizing that Tibetan culture was subsumed into China long ago but more or less left alone until Mao. The rest of the world doesn’t seem to want to call a spade a spade here and say that China is stomping all over the rights of the Tibetans pretty much for Communistic ideological reasons (China is still officially Communist and atheistic and having a theocratic autonomous region in their borders makes them look foolish). If Hu and Wen could come to a workable solution with the Lamas THAT would be a huge breakthrough not only for their internal stability but their standing in the world nations. Unfortunately I see no signs of that situation improving any time soon.

  • Ivy_B

    Got it, sgw – I was reading too quickly. Regardless, don’t think we even got what they claimed we did from KSM.

  • textee

    This piece is Exhibit No. 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,001 demonstrating that nothing will more quickly make someone a darling of the Washington press corps than being a self-described “Republican” who speaks just like a Democrat, particularly when actual evidence demonstrates that said darling is a complete fool, to wit: “[Steve Schmidt] raised alarms about the dire state of the Republican Party, and argued that a continued refusal to recognize the civil rights of gay and lesbian couples would spell further doom for the GOP.”

    -

    Earth to Time magazine and Steve Schmidt: Every single state (30 of them) that has placed marriage before the voters has voted in support of marriage and has rejected Schmidt and Time magazine’s desire to destroy marriage.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Ivy_B
    .
    I think its pretty obvious that they waterboarded KSM 183 times for pay back not for information. And I agree that they didn’t get much of anything from him from waterboarding anyway.

  • carotexas1
  • yutsano

    Someone is selling the State of Texas on Ebay proceeds go to pay off the national debt.
    -
    That is teh AWESOME!!! Any word on bidders yet?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    I am becoming a Charles Blow fan
    .
    http://tinyurl.com/cbc9r6

  • yutsano

    Wow…I guess everyone else has a life on Saturday night but me! (Okay so I’m stuck at work but still…)
    -
    Oh and I second your kudo there Sgw.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    yutsano
    .
    Not exactly. I just go over to John Cole’s spot on Saturday’s when its dead here though. Next time you are bored on a weekend evening you might want to drop in over there. I try to check back over here to see if commenting picks up but when the Swampfolks aren’t posting most folks scatter.

  • nhautamaki

    yutsano: you have a good point with Tibet. The only defence I can offer Hu and Wen on that front is that what they are doing with the Tibetans has the support of a good 98% of the general populace outside of Tibet. But I do wish they’d come up with a better solution to that issue than they have so far.

  • gysgt213

    “I believe the 183 times was for KSM. But nobody pretty much has any sympathy for him.”
    .
    sg-183 plus 83. You have to admit that is an pretty awesome amount of ticking bombs.

  • rustyreturns

    textee Says:
    Saturday, April 18, 2009 at 5:56 pm
    “This piece is Exhibit No. 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,001…”
    .
    As the democrats attempted to link Rush Limbaugh the “new party leader”, linking the “Log Cabin” Republicans as the foundation of the Republican Party is completely and utterly laughable.
    .
    Can’t the Democrats come up with anything better? Can’t TIME magazine come up with a better story line these days, or are they just following Rahm Emmanuel’s direction?

  • rustyreturns

    I just heard that Code Pink is now the mainstream representatives of the Democrat Party.
    .
    See I can do it too!!

  • rustyreturns

    This just out in the news, “Rev Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayers are vying against each other for the position of Democrat Party Chairman”.

  • 53_3

    “Can’t the Democrats come up with anything better?”
    .
    Hey, but you’re so stupid we can make it stick, Rusty. Besides, your Fat White F*cker agreed with us!
    .
    But no, I don’t think we could top it anyway.
    .
    I mean, who else but the GOP and FOX could accomplish the following:
    .
    1. Name a day of protest after a sex act accidentally.
    2. Time that theme that sex act, er, I mean protest, to be about high taxes at a time when most Americans recieved a tax cut.
    3. Manage, at most, 300k across the entire nation for selfsame sex act, er, protest, making it a miserable flop.
    4. Relentlessly, and stupifyingly ignorantly, hype it up on FOX. Let’s teabag someone!
    .
    Honestly, with all your Cheef Idiots including the Great White Whale lining up spewing this crap, you would have expected that, somewhere, somehow, some way, deep in the bowels of the scriptwriters offices there at FOX, one person, just one, would have thought to Google any dictionary.
    .
    What can one say, Rusty, other than the now relentlessly obvious fact that all of you, collectively, are dumber than warm rocks on a windowsill…

  • 53_3

    High Sheriffs please forgive me.
    .
    I have used the word ‘relentless’ in one form or another too many times in that last post.
    .
    Hopefully, you will see that it was, well, er, uh, um, relentlessly appropriate use of the adjective.
    .
    Damn, it popped up again.

  • rose83

    Ron Paul is a libertarian not a conservative.
    .
    Obama is more conservative than Paul because he’s less radical; radicalism and conservatism are not compatible.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “nothing will more quickly make someone a darling of the Washington press corps than being a self-described “Republican” who speaks just like a Democrat,”
    .
    I was going to mock testy about disowning the republican’s presidential candidate’s top advisor but then remembered I feel the exact same way about Susan Estrich.

  • gysgt213

    Paul-I would agree except for the vast difference of Susan looking out and promoting Susan. Schmidt on the other hand seems motivated by much more than himself and he seems to care about his party. Problem here is his party does not care about anyone.

  • gysgt213

    “As the democrats attempted to link Rush Limbaugh the “new party leader”
    .
    Yea about that. I seem to remember Rush taking control of the party no one needed to link him. He step into a vast void.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    gunny
    .
    The thing about the 83 times Zubaydah was waterboarded was that the CIA IG actually determined that he was “probably” waterboarded too many times. And by too many times they meant 1 time too many. Some how some way they decided the first 82 times were all good but that last one was just way too much. Seriously.

  • 53_3

    “Ron Paul is a libertarian not a conservative.”
    .
    While Ron Paul is a libertarian, he represents part of the marriage of Libertarians, Pat Robertsons’ grassroots fundamentalists, Buchannon’s militia and neo-nazis, and the conservative Southern movement all under the GOP flag.
    .
    Bob Barr has stepped away from that.

  • stuartzechman

    I think that Scherer was trying to work Google’s search results with this post’s title.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    I want to share something with my fellow commenters who thought President Obama leaving out the people who ordered torture in his statement meant he was going to go after them at some point.
    .
    http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/Story?id=7373578&page=3
    .

    STEPHANOPOULOS: Final quick question. The president has ruled out prosecutions for CIA officials who believed they were following the law. Does he believe that the officials who devised the policies should be immune from prosecution?
    .
    EMANUEL: What he believes is, look, as you saw in that statement he wrote, and I would just take a step back. He came up with this and he worked on this for about four weeks, wrote that statement Wednesday night, after he made his decision, and dictated what he wanted to see. And Thursday morning, I saw him in the office, he was still editing it.
    .
    He believes that people in good faith were operating with the guidance they were provided. They shouldn’t be prosecuted.
    .
    STEPHANOPOULOS: What about those who devised policy?
    .
    EMANUEL: Yes, but those who devised policy, he believes that they were — should not be prosecuted either, and that’s not the place that we go — as he said in that letter, and I would really recommend people look at the full statement — not the letter, the statement — in that second paragraph, “this is not a time for retribution.” It’s time for reflection. It’s not a time to use our energy and our time in looking back and any sense of anger and retribution.

  • stuartzechman

    SG:
    .
    This is absolutely insane…he sounds as if there’s some sort of principle in his mind about it.
    .
    I could understand if we were being told that there was a political calculation that was putting some interests before others –as wrong as that political calculation would be– but that’s not what we’re being told.
    .
    It’s too bad that the Beltway press doesn’t do “principle”, and only does “what will or won’t probably happen”, otherwise we might have had a question about what principle tells Obama that the designers of a torture regime that defied law and treaty should be known to be war criminals, but that knowledge should not be acted upon.
    .
    What principle tells the President that this is right? What principle tells the President to proclaim “We will no longer do this“, and yet informs him “We shall not judge those who did“?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Napolitano stands behind DHS report, and good on her for that!
    .
    http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/19/napoliano-dhs-report/

  • Ohg Rea Tone

    A full generation of feral children raised by Republicans is now on the national stage. We are witnessing an astounding event in anthropology. …………….

    http://thefiresidepost.com/2009/04/19/feral-children-raised-by-republicans/

  • Cliff

    s_z and sg: I’m as pessimistic as you are about prosecutions, but we’ve seen before that Obama will bow to political pressure. I’m hoping that these memos and the Red Cross report will start to generate enough pressure to force concessions from the Administration.

  • yoshiattack

    Here is the important point. The report is not saying that veterans are extremists. Far from it.
    -
    That’s a very clever strawman. It’s still a strawman.
    -
    That’s only one point of contention in the report. The language defining right-wing extremists suffered from a crushing weight of ambiguity, what with its “one-issue groups” clause. Napolitano has admitted that fact. And now we have a revelation that civil liberties officials flagged the report before it was published, but it went out anyway:
    -
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090416/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/napolitano_right_wing_extremists_9
    -
    So if you’re keeping score at home, the list of prominent groups and individuals objecting to the report’s embarrassing lack of evidence and muddling conclusions now stands at:
    -
    Several Republican senators (obviously)
    The American Legion
    Vets for Freedom
    Bennie Thompson, D-MS, highest ranking Democrat on the House Committee on Homeland Security
    Federal civil liberties screeners
    -
    In fairness, the list of important individuals defending the report:
    -
    Veterans of Foreign Wars
    Janet Napolitano (of course)
    -
    Unfortunately, as I’ve noted, even Napolitano admits that the language in the report was poorly worded. Because of this and the promise in the conclusion to attend to radicalization, and particularly the “political, economic, and social factors” attending radicalization, alarms are going off.

  • yoshiattack

    That’s only one point of contention = The veterans’ issue is only one point of contention

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    &lt

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    <

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

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  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    yoshi
    .
    One thing about Bennie Thompson you might not have known he said.
    .
    http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/terrorism/democrat-who-blasted-right-wing-extremism-report-called-for-crackdown-on-right-wing-extremism/
    .

    “DHS must reassess the threat posed by right-wing domestic terrorists and revise its long term planning to address this risk,” the report warns. It adds that “the risk posed by right-wing extremists” should prompt DHS to “give higher priority to this threat.”

    .
    Hey you can keep banging that drum all you like. Vote Vets is supportive of the issue as was the Bush FBI which released the report on right wing extremists targeting war veterans last year that the DHS report is based on. Perhaps you should be railing against Bush and his FBI director. Hmmmm bet that won’t happen.

  • yoshiattack

    SG:
    In regards to Bennie Thompson, that link adds absolutely nothing to the debate. Nobody contends that right-wing extremists don’t exist – it’s the report’s complete incompetence in devising a metric to identify them that has so many people riled. Red freaking herring.
    -
    And that bit about Bush’s FBI? Is that all you have? That report on veteran recruitment seems to have had more than a little bit of thought and evidence invested in it, making it totally different from what we’re discussing.

  • 53_3

    yoshiattack:
    .
    The problem here is that history is on the side of the writers of this report.
    .
    Prior to the 1995 bombing of the ERM building, it was Republicans, and a large number of them, who were involved in fanning hatred of all things government, minority, and non-Christian. They sponsored hit lists (only the infamous anti-abortion hit list remains from that era), instructions on how to make bombs, links to milita websites and other sundry web activities.
    .
    The GOP rhetoric was equally hateful.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    yoshi
    .
    Well you just keep your vigil up, I am sure it will really move all 11 people who give a sh*t about yet another ginned up outrage. Funny thing though yoshi, I haven’t heard a peep from you on the NSA wiretapping everyday Americans. I wonder why that is….

  • yoshiattack

    53:
    The fact that lunatics have seized on legitimate issues in terrible ways prior to ’95 shouldn’t be used to excuse the evident failings of a report in specificity and data in the spring of 2009. It’s been quite a while.

  • yoshiattack

    Thanks for throwing out another red herring in the chum, SG. You might recall that I hate the idea of warrantless wiretapping, which is in the process of being dismantled now that Obama is in office.

  • formerlyjames

    Everybody is making a bigger deal of the DHS report than it was meant to be. It was simply a discussion of potential threats for professionals in the field. It wasn’t advocating for or against anything other then surveilence and intelligence. Although I am not opposed to its release, it wasn’t meant for public consumption, for the very reasons of the reactions in the media and on blogs as we’ve seen.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    yoshi
    .
    A. The DHS report REFERENCED the FBI report as to where it got the motivation to mention the recruitment of war veterans by right wing extremists. So anything in the FBI report would apply to the DHS report.
    .
    B. Actually I don’t recall anything about warrantless wiretapping that you have said here. I also know that you haven’t said anything since the story came out last week. I also know that its not being dismantled now the Obama is in office, in fact it was reaffirmed a year ago in the new FISA bill one which President Obama voted for which most of the left were not happy about myself included. It is what it is.

  • yoshiattack

    formerlyjames:
    We all know how surveillance can be used in the right hands. This is something we have to look out for.
    -
    Are a lot of Republicans hypocrites for complaining about insidious government labeling and intel gathering? Absolutely. That doesn’t change the morals of the situation, however.

  • 53_3

    yoshi:
    .
    It has been quite a while, I agree, but the fact remains that these fringe elements still hold sway in the GOP, and actually, the central issue of tug-of-war going on between conservatives and “conservatives” is just that.
    .
    I think the report’s lack of data is intentional. You cannot tip your hand to those whose organizations you are monitoring. There are, of course, far left threats too, but right now, the political mood is ugly for the right.
    .
    I can understand the claim that giving a pass on the lack of data is a copout, in a sense, but it is a practice that is adhered to worldwide by law enforcement / antiterrorism agencies.
    .
    I’ve noted in the 30+ years I’ve been aware of, how close to the surface hate is in the GOP. It’s still there, and on occasion, it has boiled over into some frankly outlandish cases that would have, at any other time in American history, resulted in prosecustions for incitement at the very least.

  • formerlyjames

    yoshi, this is lawful intelligence gathering, as opposed to waterboarding and illegal wiretapping as advocated by the last administration.

  • 53_3

    As a quick aside here on my last comments, I think that there is little likelihood of them monitoring the RNC or other official orgainizations or veterans’ groups. I’m sure that the American Legion is not being investigated.
    .
    However, I will say that instead of trusting “us”, I should point out that unless there is a specific lead pointing to an individual in any of those organizations, I would find monitoring of such organizations a revolting prospect.
    .
    I just don’t think that that particular scenario is in the cards.

  • yoshiattack

    SG:
    A – The claim that extremist groups are trying to recruit veterans and the claim that veterans having problems reengaging with their communities are more susceptible to extremism are not the same claim.
    -
    B – Are you talking about telecom/agent immunity?
    -
    As for the rest, I note that questioning patriotism is a talking point deployed in force nowadays (to no small irony). You certainly used it when you accused the “Malkin” crowd of being sucky patriots the other day because they didn’t report on the memos in two seconds of their release vs. four. HA came out with a fair examination shortly afterward.

  • Cliff

    I hate the idea of warrantless wiretapping, which is in the process of being dismantled now that Obama is in office.
    .
    Uh, what?
    .
    Did you miss the part where we just found out about the widespread abuses of wiretapping following the FISA legislation last year?
    .
    Which might be tangential, but as far as I’ve heard no one’s even mentioned dismantling the legislation. Congress has talked about maybe asking questions about it.

  • 53_3

    It would actually be helpful to see just which phrases are the onse generating the objections.

  • yoshiattack

    53:
    -
    I think the report’s lack of data is intentional. You cannot tip your hand to those whose organizations you are monitoring. There are, of course, far left threats too, but right now, the political mood is ugly for the right.
    .
    I can understand the claim that giving a pass on the lack of data is a copout, in a sense, but it is a practice that is adhered to worldwide by law enforcement / antiterrorism agencies.

    -
    I note with irony another Bush-era claim, using national security to justify withholding data – this time deployed by the left.
    -
    The DHS left-wing extremism report answers your contention. It’s rather specific in contrast to its counterpart, which puts to rest the claim of any actual data endangering law enforcement efforts. Among other things, it mentions the names of actual organizations. This was duly noted by some in the media.
    -
    In regards to your aside, I have to laugh. We should trust the federal government not to breach its limits because there’s “little chance” of that happening. How do you know? They certainly haven’t given us much to go on.
    -
    formerlyjames:
    Surveillance of harmless groups with garbage justifications is just as wrong as warrantless wiretapping.

  • formerlyjames

    yoshi, I am a veteran, I am not offended by the report, and I know that there is some basis to the heads up about the threat potential amongst some small segment of the veteran population.

  • Cliff

    As for the rest, I note that questioning patriotism is a talking point deployed in force nowadays (to no small irony).
    .
    Why, because talk of secession has occurred in Texas, Georgia, Alaska and Arizona? Because the mouth-breathing xenophobes have went from screaming “Get out of our country!” to “We’re leaving the country!” without a single heartbeat having elapsed?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    yoshi
    .
    Actually HA didn’t come out with anything within 24 hours. I didn’t say anything until the day after the OLC memos came out. Second the report didn’t say the veterans having problems reengaging were more suceptible, it said that those were the ones the right wing extremists were more likely to target. Third I questioned patriotism on the issue of wingnuts wanting to seceed from the country and thats a valid argument. If you don’t want to be an American can you really be labeled an American patriot? There is a new thread from Scherer and I am tired of having to go to page 3 to continue the conversation so ill see you there.

  • 53_3

    “I note with irony another Bush-era claim, using national security to justify withholding data – this time deployed by the left.”
    .
    I’ll have to check that one out. I’ve noted your following paragraph. On the other hand, it isn’t left wing zealots that are threatening Obama’s Administration or government itself.
    .
    “In regards to your aside, I have to laugh. We should trust the federal government not to breach its limits because there’s “little chance” of that happening. How do you know?”
    .
    Actually, I said I wouldn’t say “trust us”, Yoshi. Read again. Bush, and the entire right wing cranked “trust us” and more when it came to their excesses.
    .
    Anyway, I don’t, and I said so. I did however state that I thought it would be wrong.
    .
    I have a good idea, Yoshi.
    .
    Why don’t you specifically show what is objectionable about that report. I’ve noted your comments about the contrast between the LW and RW reports.

  • 53_3

    As another aside, Yoshi, I don’t think you can make a case for there not being a lot of motivation on the part of the right for partaking in violent behavior.
    .
    I don’t want to insult your intelligence by posting links to Palin rallies and McCain’s efforts to tamp down the barely controllable hatred that has been spewed by the Palin rally attendees.
    .
    I could point to the teabagging protests, too, Yoshi, and the eruption of borderline violent rhetoric by some of your euphemistically labelled “entertainers”.
    .
    I really do not want to go there.

  • yutsano

    The only defence I can offer Hu and Wen on that front is that what they are doing with the Tibetans has the support of a good 98% of the general populace outside of Tibet. But I do wish they’d come up with a better solution to that issue than they have so far.
    -
    That may have to do with the fact that there is not a free press in China. Xinhua is not about to go around embarrassing the Party officials who have both their lives and their livelihoods on the line. It’s easy to be riled against a society you are taught is both backwards and traditionally Chinese and is simply being rebellious. If the Han actually were aware of what was going on (and to be honest no one is entirely what all is happening there because the information coming out of Tibet is limited and second-hand at best) there is every possibility public opinion there could change. But again, a society the size of China won’t be dragged into the democratic league of nations suddenly.

  • flacidcasual

    I’m arriving at this post a little late thanks to me being very busy this weekend drinking beer and having a laugh, but Steve Schmidt’s comments strike me as being very intellectually honest. This is a nice change to the usual GOP crap of reciting Rush Limbaugh’s personal talking points. I don’t think he’s talking like a Democrat, but at least he’s being honest.

    My overriding feeling after the last week’s tea bag protests and the media coverage of President Obama’s handshake with Hugo Chavez etc. is that Conservatives are living up to their name. Here are some synonyms for “Conservative”:

    Tory, bourgeois, constant, controlled, conventional, die-hard, fearful, firm, fogyish, fuddy-duddy*, guarded, hard hat, hidebound, holding to, illiberal, in a rut, inflexible, middle-of-the-road*, not extreme, obstinate, old guard*, old line, orthodox, quiet, reactionary, redneck*, right, right of center, right-wing, sober, stable, steady, timid, traditional, traditionalistic, unchangeable, unchanging, uncreative, undaring, unimaginative, unprogressive, white bread

    It’s no surprise that these guys should be up in arms that their world is changing. They no longer wield the disproportionate influence that they once did, so it’s important to them that their voice is still heard by the other 75% of the population, who embrace change as a way of making their lives better. Open your minds timid, uncreative, unimaginative, white bread people!

  • sacredh

    flacidcasual: You have just earned a doctorate in adjective usage. I’m impressed. May I suggest cracker eating MFer’s?

  • yutsano

    flacidcasual: You have just earned a doctorate in adjective usage. I’m impressed. May I suggest cracker eating MFer’s?
    -
    Flacid is a thesaurus editor?

  • sacredh

    I thought we had seen the last of the thesaurus when the meteor hit.

  • yutsano

    I thought we had seen the last of the thesaurus when the meteor hit.
    -
    It’s only gonna get worse from here huh?
    -
    WE NEED FRESH POSTINGS!!! C’mon KT throw us a bone or something here! That whole Perry secessionist thing has your name written all over it!

  • sacredh

    yutsano: It probably is going to just get worse. I doing laundry, celebrating with a bottle of wine and burning cd’s for my niece. I need an outlet or else I’m going to start using puns.

  • yutsano

    I doing laundry, celebrating with a bottle of wine and burning cd’s for my niece. I need an outlet or else I’m going to start using puns.
    -
    Yeah I’m getting calls about once every ten minutes right now. I do a much larger volume on weekdays. I think the ennui allowed me to dig up the prisoner labor idea out of the brain recesses.

  • sacredh

    This is why I seldom drink. I don’t think I’ve made a post tonight that either hasn’t had some serious errors or spelling mistakes. Mrs Sacrdh just asked me to watch a movie. Please God, don’t let it be Twilight.

  • apollyon07

    53_3:
    .
    I didn’t participate in the tea party protests but you saying they accidentally named it after a sex act is false. None of the organizers ever referred to it as tea bagging, they were called tea parties (after the Boston Tea Party). This was just made up by the opposition. I think it would be funny if Rick Perry’s name was “Ima Jackass” but it’s not.
    .
    And someone referring to Ron Paul as radical is also untrue. Radicalism by definition is extreme left-wing, REACTIONARY is extreme right-wing. So if someone wanted to say Ron Paul is extreme it would be correct to use the term reactionary, not radical. Example: “Ron Paul’s economic ideas are very conservative, reactionary, in fact”.

  • apollyon07

    And Cliff, I’m not sure if you meant to characterize those states as having majorities or even sizable populations favoring secession, but in case you did, here’s a poll that swiftly and utterly rebukes that for my state, Texas, where our idiot governor started this controversy:
    .
    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/states_general/texas/in_texas_31_say_state_has_right_to_secede_from_u_s_but_75_opt_to_stay
    .
    Secession is literally the most unpatriotic thing I can think of, and apparently the vast majority of the rest of my fellow Texans agree.

  • flacidcasual

    Copied from the Thesaurus, so I can’t claim those words to be my own. Roget has to take credit.

  • rose83

    Radicalism by definition is extreme left-wing, REACTIONARY is extreme right-wing. So if someone wanted to say Ron Paul is extreme it would be correct to use the term reactionary, not radical. Example: “Ron Paul’s economic ideas are very conservative, reactionary, in fact”.
    .
    apollyon07, Do you have any non-political sources that confirm your understanding of the term “radical”? In the 19th-century radical was essentially synonymous with left-wing because right-wingers supported the status quo. But in the 20th century right-wing groups advocating extreme change emerged, often in response to left-wing movements, thus making radical an appropriate adjective to describe certain right-wingers.
    .
    And it makes no sense to call Paul reactionary or conservative because he’s advocating new and extreme policies. He’s not Edmund Burke calling for a return to the pre-revolutionary status quo in France. Conservatism is based on a respect for tradition and a distrust of dramatic changes, which does not match with Paul’s ideas.
    .
    Just to be clear, I’m not using “radical” in a pejorative way – I disagree with 90% of Paul’s ideas but I’m not disagreeing with them because they are radical. I personally find it irritating when people criticize ideas simply by calling them “radical” or “conservative.”

  • http://thecommonloon.blogspot.com commonloon

    While some Christian pastors fear they could be forced to perform same-sex marriages against their will, most gays and lesbians are not too keen on getting hitched in a conservative church. Even so, the legalization of gay marriage brings up some valid concerns related to religious freedom that must be addressed.
    .
    In Massachusetts for example, Catholic Charities of Boston quit providing adoption services in 2006 because state anti-discrimination laws forced them to allow married same-sex couples to adopt, which goes against church doctrine. In situations like these, guarantees of religious exemptions could greatly help to ease tensions and fears.
    .
    The push for GLBT civil rights would encounter less opposition if faith-based groups could be confident that they won’t be forced to support or facilitate gay marriage.

  • sacredh

    commonloon: Should it also be allowed for groups that are of other religious persuasions or no religion at all be allowed to deny services to christian couples? Should church doctrine trump state or federal law? I think that allows a can of worms to be opened that serves no one. Allowing religious law/doctrine to supercede constitutional law is a move toward a theocracy. I wonder if Catholic Charities of Boston received any state or federal funds.

  • http://thecommonloon.blogspot.com commonloon

    sacredh,
    If a Christian couple wants to get married by a Muslim or Scientologist minister, that minister should have the right to say no because of their religious freedom to disagree. If you are starting an atheist non-profit and you don’t want to hire any Mormons or Catholics because they don’t agree with your organization’s purpose or mission statement, the government cannot infringe upon your right to the free exercise of your religion by forcing you to hire them. That’s a good thing in my opinion.

    In the case I mentioned earlier, Catholic Charities of Boston was not even receiving any govt. funding for their adoption services, but they were required to be licensed by the state. I don’t personally agree with the Catholic church’s stance on gay adoption, but I do know their charities provide terrific adoption services for thousands of families. Forcing them to shut down means some other non-profit has to fill in the gap, and many of these non-profits are religious organizations.

    Instead of shutting down faith-based non-profits (ie. Salvation Army, Habitat for Humanity, Catholic Charities and World Vision to name a few) or forcing them to abandon their religious beliefs, it would be in society’s best interest to let them continue working for the public good, which often requires state licensing. Not only that, but there would be less resistance to gay marriage if faith-based groups could be confident that they won’t be forced to support or facilitate gay marriage.
    .
    Some of my other thoughts on how to move the gay marriage forward can be found here:
    .
    http://thecommonloon.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-not-to-argue-about-gay-marriage.html

  • http://hpronline.org/blog/?p=594 A Reactionary Party » The HPRty

    [...] belief that you can cut taxes and balance the budget at the same time; they seem generally to be backing off the social-issue catfights that were sprinkled liberally throughout the Bush presidency; they tout [...]

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