In the Arena

Netanyahu Unhinged

Jeff Goldberg has an interview with Binyamin Netanyahu that is probably more depressing than alarming, since you’ve got to figure that the new Israeli prime minister is mostly blowing smoke when it comes to his over-the-top talk about Iran. (He’s entitled to blow, by the way, so long as the mullahs go around talking about Israel as a “cancerous tumor.”)

Netanyahu’s view–if this effusion actually reflects his view–stands in opposition to much that is known about Iran and its leaders. For one thing, they are a dismal, hateful, occasionally violent lot, but they have no history of behaving irrationally in international affairs. As the 2007 NIE on Iran’s bomb program found, the Mullahs will respond to international pressure–and Netanyahu seems to agree, here, when Goldberg catches him in an inconsistency:

 “I think the Iranian economy is very weak, which makes Iran susceptible to sanctions that can be ratcheted up by a variety of means.” When I suggested that this statement contradicted his assertion that Iran, by its fanatic nature, is immune to pressure, Netanyahu smiled thinly and said, “Iran is a composite leadership, but in that composite leadership there are elements of wide-eyed fanaticism that do not exist right now in any other would-be nuclear power in the world. That’s what makes them so dangerous.”

There are other notable examples of Netanyahu’s ignorance and myopia in the interview. This, for example, is vile to the point of borderline racism:

Iran “wasted over a million lives without batting an eyelash … It didn’t sear a terrible wound into the Iranian consciousness. It wasn’t Britain after World War I, lapsing into pacifism because of the great tragedy of a loss of a generation. You see nothing of the kind.”

It is also wildly untrue. The impact of the Iraq war remains an open, searing wound in Iran. You can see the victims on the streets in Iran, shaking and tearing uncontrollably, begging, with signs saying “chemical victim of the war” around their necks–or, at least, you could when I last visited in 2001. In fact, it is the memory of that war–Iran’s helplessness against the rockets that fell in Tehran and Saddam’s chemical attacks on the battlefield–that is a prime motivation for the desire to have a bomb as deterrence. It is also a reason why those Iranians who are most opposed to the government do not resort to violence: “We’ve had too much of violence,” a reform newspaper editor told me. “Every one of us has lost some one. We want reform, not revolution.”

Netanyahu is also completely wrong when he says that Iran, with a bomb, will be able to coerce Arab neighbors to its side. The precise opposite is true: Iran with a bomb would touch off an Arab arms race. The very prospect of Iran with a bomb is freaking out the Arabs now–in private, your average Egyptian, Jordanian or Saudi diplomat is far more passionate about the threat from Iran than the “atrocities” Israel undertook in Gaza. 

So, what’s going on here? A smokescreen, I suspect. Netanyahu–who is opposed to a Palestinian state–is trying to draw attention away from illegal Israeli settlements on the West Bank, which continue to grow and threaten the possibility of a two-state solution. He is also playing to the minority of American Jews who support neoconservative positions, especially the notion that Iran having a bomb would be somehow different, and more threatening, than Pakistan having a bomb–the idea that Iran is run by mad mullahs, who behave irrationally. 

In truth, the Iranian factions that want to resume the bomb program are behaving with utmost rationality. The single fact on the ground that makes an Iranian bomb extremely likely, if not inevitable, is the existence of Israel’s bomb. As long as the Israeli Prime Minister goes around threatening to attack Iran, the Mullahs are going to  want some way to counter that.

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  • 53_3

    I just posted on your other thread these comments in response to
    persianadvocate, but they are really more important here:
    .
    I think Isreal is already tossing monkey wrenches in the direction of the wheels of diplomacy. Though somewhat unrelated, Avigdor the Bigot is already setting the table for yet another round of extremism:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7977002.stm
    .
    Israel may become a millstone around the neck of American efforts for peace as Bush is a millstone around the necks of the GOP.
    .
    The Isrealis are likely to try to keep things hot, and I think that the threat Israel represents to the economies of the world (through it’s efforts to promote an attack on Iran) that Obama may have to take concrete measures to signal Israel that the buck stops here.
    .
    The best initial move:
    .
    Refuse Lieberman’s portfolio.

  • spob

    Iranian leadership has said, bluntly, that it will wipe Israel off the map. Certainly, Israel is entitled to take Iranian leadership at its word.

    .

    Additionally, the Iranians provide the arms with which Israeli citizens are subjected to terror. The Israelis have the right to deal with that as well.

  • Joe Klein

    53_3–

    I spoke with a senior US diplomat about Lieberman. We won’t refuse his portfolio, this person said, pointing out that we didn’t reject Ariel Sharon, even though he was responsible for the 1982 massacres in the Palestinian camps near Beirut. I abhor Lieberman, but I agree–for the same reason that I believe we should be talking to Hamas: We need to talk to everybody, especially those who oppose our values, if we get some deals done.

  • 53_3

    I agree with the argument per se, Joe, you do have a point.
    .
    But when push comes to shove, I guess, I’d be willing to accept that if Obama is willing to put some teeth in his attempts at persuasion.
    .
    Otherwise, we have a trainwreck waiting to happen. Iran will of course continue to polarize, and so, since Israel has also, we are faced with the prospect of two “Ahmadinejads” rattling sabres.
    .
    With what happened to foster the last spike in gas prices, there is ample proof that concern that the eocnomies of the world hang in the balance isn’t blowing smoke.
    .
    Thanks for responding!

  • stuartzechman

    Thanks so much for this post, Joe Klein, and for the helpful response to commentary.
    .
    It’s very difficult for many observers here to know if Netanyahu’s bellicosity is truly a product of real “ignorance and myopia“, or whether it is solely for political (foreign and domestic) consumption. This determination is made especially difficult by obvious similarities to the deliberate, ideologically-based ignorance and myopia of the rightists and their neo-conservative allies associated with AIPAC (amongst others).
    .
    Is it smoke, Joe Klein? Or is it something else…?

  • 53_3

    Actually with respect to Sharon, I consider Sharon bad, but Lieberman is, at least to me, a “Zeevi level” political figure. Sharon, I think would resort to dirty deeds when he felt it was called for (as Hamas would), but people like Lieberman are postitively in the mold of Milosevic, should they have a stronger say in the conduct of affairs.
    .
    People like Lieberman would not hesitate to put in effect postively Draconian measures against whole populations should it benefit them politically, in my opinion.

  • stuartzechman

    we didn’t reject Ariel Sharon, even though he was responsible for the 1982 massacres in the Palestinian camps near Beirut
    .
    Some would argue –sometimes persuasively– that this is to the discredit, and counter to the interests of the United States, but I would largely concur with this statement: We need to talk to everybody, especially those who oppose our values, if we get some deals done.
    .
    Let’s hope that’s sooner rather than later, given the waste of nearly a decade by the Bush Administration.

  • stuartzechman

    spob:
    .
    Iranian leadership has said, bluntly, that it will wipe Israel off the map.
    .
    Do you have a source and a link for that assertion?

  • spob

    “bellicosity”? I guarantee you that Netanyahu would like nothing better than Iran to stop its aggressiveness towards Israel. Perhaps, just perhaps, Netanyahu sees an existential threat to his nation and is signalling that he is willing to do something about it.

  • rose83

    (He’s entitled to blow, by the way, so long as the mullahs go around talking about Israel as a “cancerous tumor.”)
    .
    Isn’t that the kind of thinking that’s responsible for this mess?
    .
    But overall this is an excellent post. Thanks.

  • 53_3

    spob:
    .
    The world of diplomacy is nearly as old as the world of history and warfare.
    .
    Posturing and fighting are two different things.
    .
    Look at the case of Pakistan and India about 7 years ago…

  • spob

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#.22Wiped_off_the_map.22_or_.22Vanish_from_the_pages_of_time.22_translation
    .

    And no, 53_3, threats like that are not diplomacy. And are you forgetting the Iranian arming of terrorist groups which kill Israeli citizens? Time was (since you reference history) that such acts would be deemed acts of war and would justify the armed invasion of Iran.

  • spob

    I just want to ask a question of SZ and 53_3. Let’s say tomorrow morning Japan invaded North Korea in response to the abduction of Japanese nationals. What say you as to legality? Not talking about whether it would be smart or what have you, just pure legality.

  • 53_3

    Um, spob:
    .
    Israel’s army, as good as it is, is not large enough to occupy territory for any length of time. Isreal could not “invade” Iran with any success any more than I can fly by flapping my arms.
    .
    The term for what you have posted about has a term:
    .
    “Saber rattling”.
    .
    Now, as for the second part, Israel is just as much to blame. They have two open-air prisons running, one on the West Bank, and the other in Gaza.
    .
    Hizbollah, Hamas and Fatah are just as much an Isreali product (responses to their occupation) as is their own government. After all, things just aren’t as simple as you think they are. If you treat people like sh!t, like the Isrealis have done to the Palestinians, expect them to fight.
    .
    Also, spob, in the act of resistance, don’t expect them to be too choosey about who helps them!

  • 53_3

    Before we address legalities spob, what are “settlements”?
    .
    What is the human-rights status of imprisoning people on their own land?
    .
    You are trying to move this into a chicken-or-egg thing, and the issues are not as complex as many claim. There is a very clear cut path through this mess.

  • spob

    And what exactly, is Israel supposed to do about Gaza? Remember, 53_3, the Israelis did not start the war in which they captured Gaza. And so now they’re supposed to allow all sorts of things to be brought in there? Ha. Same with West Bank. They didn’t start the 1967 war . . . .
    .

    As for Israel and Iran, invasion wouldn’t have to take the form of occupying troops.

  • spob

    I think Gaza is the result of the geography, not Israel imprisoning them.
    .

    I don’t take the view that settling a territory that was denuded of Jews (see, e.g., Hebron 1929) is illegal. Not helpful, maybe, but certainly not illegal.
    .

    And the issue is Iran’s actions toward Israel, which are warlike.

  • esblofeld

    I can’t access Juan Cole at the moment for some reason, but someone direct Spob to the true translation of Ahmedinajad’s remarks. He actually endorsed something to the effect of “the regime in Jerusalem vanishing from the pages of time”.

  • spob

    I’ve already posted the wiki stuff which mentions Cole. I don’t retract my comment.

  • 53_3

    spob:
    .
    Collective punishment is illegal. Regardless of the 1967 war.
    .
    As for the missiles, well, are “targeted assassinations” somehow better than missiles? More moral? Are holding entire populations hostage for the conduct of a resistanc group anything less than collective punishment?
    .
    I fail to see it.
    .
    Also, spob, the word “invasion” is not the word you should be using.

  • spob

    My use of invasion had nothing to do with its feasibily.
    .

    Collective punishment? Ha. Nice propaganda.
    .

    Targeted assassinations? Ok by me. Does Israel have the right to kill those who aid and abet terrorist attacks on it? Uh yes. Would you take the position that Israel couldn’t do a targeted assassination of Samir Kuntar?

  • 53_3

    I think, spob, even if Israel did “defend itself”, it’s efforts would end in failure, and in addition, would culminate in an exchange of WMD.
    .
    The consequences to the economies of the world would be devastating. Some 45 to 50 percent of the worlds oil would be, for a time, unavailable should such an event occur, with lamentable consequences economically.
    .
    On top of that, Hizb Allah has clearly demonstrated that the age of cheap rocketry is here, and Isreal does not have the ability to keep itself secure by overwhelming deterrance.
    .
    So now what, spob?
    .
    I think there is only one viable solution, and that is the Arab plan, in one form or another.

  • 53_3

    Well spob you are just resorting to rhetoric.
    .
    The fact remains that Isreal cannot secure it’s borders. And I know the capabilties of RS and photointerpretation.
    .
    Isreal is at a severe disadvantage in that it doesn’t, and can’t know where all of Irans’ targets are, simply because Iran has far more real estate than Isreal does.
    .
    Talk rhetoric all you want, spob, but the fact remains that they simply cannot defeat a foe like Hizb Allah, much less Iran.
    .
    The only way to defeat Iran would be to use nukes.
    .
    As for your ok on targeted killings, that is fine, but that is the crux of the problem. Hamas has reason to fight, and fight they will. So does Hizb Allah. And so would Fatah if they so choose.

  • 53_3

    spob:
    .
    “My use of invasion had nothing to do with its feasibily.”
    .
    When you conduct military operations, you certainly don’t use reasoning like this!

  • spob

    Who knows what the solution is. But Israel has the right to respond militarily. And Israel certainly has the right to deal with Hezbollah in the harshest possible way.
    .

    I’ll give you an idea of how I think about these things. A bunch of years ago, a couple of Israeli reservists apparently took a wrong turn and wound up in the hands of the Palestinian authority, word got out and the place where they were being held was surrounded by thousands of Palestinians who wound up lynching them. If I ran Israel, I would have sent up helo gunships and machine gunned those storming the police station. Then I would have held a news conference. And when asked about the proportionality or what have you, I would have said, if a million people were trying to break into my home to kill me, I would have the right to kill every last one of them. Well, we have the right to kill a thousand people trying to murder two of our civilians, or, do you think the number of attempted murderers should factor into the calculus.
    .

    If Hezbollah attacks Israel again with missiles, I would support the Israelis clearing out a 10 mile buffer into Lebanon where no person would be allowed to live. Lebanon has an obligation as a sovereign nation not to tolerate missile attacks on Israel from within its territory. If it refuses to deal with this issue, the Israelis are certainly entitled to.

  • 53_3

    “Would you take the position that Israel couldn’t do a targeted assassination of Samir Kuntar?”
    .
    Well, wouldn’t a targeted assassination of Ariel Sharon by a Hizb Allah drone be equivalent?
    .
    Tell me why it wouldn’t.

  • spob

    53_3, the point was that they have the right to, not that they could.
    .

    Just as Britain would have been justified in conquering Iran over the seizure of British sailors recently.

  • 53_3

    No, spob.
    .
    I see it like this:
    .
    If you try to take my home, or imprison me, are take away my freedom, I’m gonna fight.
    .
    Isreal is reaping what it’s sowing.

  • spob

    Ariel Sharon was in the Israeli Army. Samir Kuntar is a terrorist. Those distinctions matter.
    .

    Let Hezbollah send a drone . . . .

  • spob

    Israel didn’t start the conflict in 1967. Israel is dealing with a bad hand. The Palestinians are lucky that Israel doesn’t take the approach that Putin does with terrorists.

  • 53_3

    I don’t see Isreal any less blameless, and they need to negotiate a peace.
    .
    The days when Israel could bully their way through, and over, others who are fighting for their land is over.
    .
    As for your “solution”, Israel just fought a war of attrition in Lebanon in 2002 and lost.

  • 53_3

    “Ariel Sharon was in the Israeli Army. Samir Kuntar is a terrorist. Those distinctions matter.”
    .
    They do? Have you asked any Palestinians how they feel about that?
    .
    I mean, they are the ones with the missiles…

  • 53_3

    “The Palestinians are lucky that Israel doesn’t take the approach that Putin does with terrorists.”
    .
    Has anyone pointed out, spob, that the words “Palestinian” and “terrorist” are not the same?

  • spob

    My solution in Lebanon would involve removing every single person from a 10 mile strip of land on Israel’s northern border, with a further ratchet if necessary. Countries simply don’t have to tolerate missile attacks coming from without, and they get to do things to deal with those issues. (Of course, they could simply respond with shelling, which would have the same effect.)

  • 53_3

    And, btw spob, who cares that Isreal didn’t start the 1967 war.
    .
    Didja bother to notice that the Palestinians didn’t start it, either, or did that slip your mind?

  • spob

    I meant the “palestinians”. No other nation on the planet would be as squeamish as Israel is about collateral damage.

  • spob

    The point is that the 1967 war was a defensive war. Israel shouldn’t be prejudiced by that.

  • 53_3

    spob,
    .
    A few wee problems:
    .
    1. They will have to occupy every inch of territory to do it.
    2. Hizb Allah’s missiles have a range longer than 10 miles. They would simply shoot over them, disperse, set up somewhere else, and disperse again. RS isn’t good enough to prevent this scenario.
    3. Isreal’s army is small, and not capable of holding significant territory outside it’s borders.
    .
    “Countries simply don’t have to tolerate missile attacks coming from without, and they get to do things to deal with those issues.”
    .
    Well, that would be true if there wasn’t a conflict, but there is, and Lebanon is in opposition to Isreal’s aims.
    .
    What makes you think that they should take any other position? If you fight, you fight.

  • 53_3

    spob, again, who cares about who started the ’67 war.
    .
    It certainly wasn’t the Palestinians…

  • 53_3

    “I meant the “palestinians”. No other nation on the planet would be as squeamish as Israel is about collateral damage.”
    .
    Well, spob, appearantly not as squeamish as you’d like, as Lebanon and Gaza were collateral damage – in bulk.
    .
    Base data spob:
    .
    If you want peace, then give the Palestinians their freedom. There really is no other viable solution.

  • spob

    It certainly matters who started the war. Typically, people in defensive wars shouldn’t have nettlesome issues redound against them. That the Palestinians didn’t start the war doesn’t make Israel’s cause less worthy. Moreover, the Palestinians have chosen “governments” which either fight Israel or certainly don’t help matters.
    .

    As for Lebanon, the 10 mile buffer could be enforced with a fence. Moreover, I think Hezbollah would find itself with some problems with the Lebanese if such a thing came to pass, which would cut down on the missiles. Israel could blockade Lebanon and could threaten Syria if it delivered missiles to the Hezbollah guys. Of course, international pressure would be a problem. But Israel would have every right under international law to do this.

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  • 53_3

    You know, spob, in summary here, you seem to think that the Palestinians are somehow different from other people in the world.
    .
    You seem to think, uniquely, that they shouldn’t fight if their freedems are taken away, their homes razed, or have to face roadblocks. It’s odd how you and others somehow expect that they love freedom any less than you.
    .
    Very odd, indeed. After all, take a look at the West Bank:
    .
    There, they have been relatively peaceful since 2004, and look at what Abbas has to show his own people:
    .
    Absolutely nothing!
    .
    So you tell me, spob, just why Palestinians shouldn’t fight?

  • spob

    Ask the Chechens about collateral damage . . . .

    Giving the Palestinians freedom would simply mean that Gaza would arm itself and attack Israel and then the Israelis would have to deal with an armed West Bank raining stuff down on the airport and god knows what else.

  • spob

    “relatively peaceful”? Only because they cannot get rockets. The security fence cut down on most of their shenanigans.

  • rustyreturns

    stuartzechman Says:
    Wednesday, April 1, 2009 at 4:46 pm
    spob:
    .
    Iranian leadership has said, bluntly, that it will wipe Israel off the map.
    .
    Do you have a source and a link for that assertion?
    .
    http://www.movietank.nl/video/w-R393bG2xI/iran-missile-test-footage.html
    .
    There you go Stewie. Hope you understand Farsi

  • formerlyjames

    All I know or care about is that Iran hasn’t committed genocide, massive killing, and torture of civilian populations lately. But Isreal has. Guess whose side I’m on? For now.

  • 53_3

    “Moreover, the Palestinians have chosen “governments” which either fight Israel or certainly don’t help matters.”
    .
    But spob, I thought that Palestinians have a right to choose who they want to govern! Isn’t that what democracy is all about? Does it matter that Isreal doesn’t like the government?
    .
    And “nettlesome issues” are issues of freedom, spob.
    .
    After all, I fail to see the difference between their freedom and your own. Would you consider yours simply a “nettlesome issue” because it inconveniences the government?
    .
    Of course you don’t!
    .
    Your “Lebanon” strategy:
    .
    “As for Lebanon, the 10 mile buffer could be enforced with a fence.”
    .
    Have you noticed that fences don’t do much good? Rockets go over fences, spob.
    .
    “Moreover, I think Hezbollah would find itself with some problems with the Lebanese if such a thing came to pass, which would cut down on the missiles.”
    .
    Sigiora himself said that Isreal isn’t a partner for peace.
    .
    “Israel could blockade Lebanon and could threaten Syria if it delivered missiles to the Hezbollah guys.”
    .
    Um, spob, didn’t you notice that they already tried that – and failed?
    .
    “Of course, international pressure would be a problem. But Israel would have every right under international law to do this.”
    .
    No, they do not have the right to flatten civilian targets in an effort to discourage missile fire.
    .
    My suggestion would be to negotiate a real peace, where the Palestinians actually get their freedom, Israel keeps the 1967 territory, and the Arabs recognize Isreal and sign peace treaties.
    .
    In short – the Arab peace plan, or some form of it.

  • 53_3

    spob:
    .
    “”relatively peaceful”? Only because they cannot get rockets. The security fence cut down on most of their shenanigans.”
    .
    Well then, if you are going to punish the Palestinians for what they might do, or some group of them might do, then what’s the point.
    .
    Here, I’ll give you a test:
    .
    Why don’t you come up with one reason the Palestinians shouldn’t fight.

  • 53_3

    Um, “Israel keeps the 1967 territory” should read:
    .
    “Israel keeps the pre-1967 territory…”

  • formerlyjames

    This is a little ot, but related to SAFP, Stupid American Foreign Policy. Earlier, for some reason I forgot, I was looking up literacy rates in the world, and guess what the most literate country in the world is? Cuba. True. Bush the idiot would have done better to link up with Cuba on education than malign them. But then again, he is only moderately literate after the finest education to be bought.
    .
    Again, ot, but America needs to wake up to stupid foreign relations.

  • 53_3

    Well, james, you’ve just seen SAFP in action!

  • 53_3

    formerlyjames:
    .
    That is pretty interesting. I wouldn’t have thought that Cuba would have that title.
    .
    I wonder what the literacy rate in the real America is?
    .
    45%? 55%?

  • rustyreturns

    formerlyjames Says:
    Wednesday, April 1, 2009 at 5:57 pm
    All I know or care about is that Iran hasn’t committed genocide, massive killing, and torture of civilian populations lately. But Isreal has.
    .
    Modern Islamic Wars since 1801 to present
    First Barbary War
    Fulani Jihad
    First Serbian Uprising
    Ottoman-Saudi War
    Second Barbary War
    Caucasian War
    Greek War of Independence
    Turko-Persian War
    Russo-Turkish War (1828–1829)
    First Anglo-Afghan War
    Dungan revolt
    Panthay Rebellion
    Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878)
    Mahdi Rebellion
    Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922)
    Rif War (1920)
    Indo-Pakistani War of 1947
    Algerian War
    First Sudanese Civil War
    North Yemen Civil War
    Turkish invasion of Cyprus
    Junagadh
    Operation Polo
    Indonesian invasion of East Timor
    Western Sahara conflict
    Lebanese Civil War
    Ogaden War
    Libya-Chad War
    Somali Civil War
    Indo-Pakistani War of 1965
    Iran–Iraq War
    Soviet war in Afghanistan
    Al-Anfal Campaign
    Indo-Pakistani War of 1971
    Second Sudanese Civil War
    Mauritania-Senegal Border War
    Afghan Civil War (1989-1992)
    Nagorno-Karabakh War
    Gulf War
    Bosnian War
    Civil War in Tajikistan
    First Chechen War
    Kosovo War
    Algerian Civil War
    .
    Current conflicts
    War in Somalia (2006–present)
    Darfur conflict
    Kashmir conflict
    Iraq War
    War in Afghanistan
    Israeli-Palestinian conflict
    Second Chechen War
    Fatah-Hamas conflict
    Islamic insurgency in the Philippines
    2007 Ogaden conflict
    South Thailand insurgency
    Waziristan War
    2007 Lebanon conflict
    Insurgency in Saudi Arabia
    Sa’dah conflict
    Kurdish insurgency in Turkey
    Civil war in Iraq
    Second Tuareg Rebellion
    War on Terror
    Just the last “conflict”, “War on Terror” has claimed the lives of 62,006 – the number killed in the ‘war on terror’

    By David Randall and Emily Gosden

    Sunday, 10 September 2006

    The “war on terror” – and by terrorists – has directly killed a minimum of 62,006 people, created 4.5 million refugees and cost the US more than the sum needed to pay off the debts of every poor nation on earth.

    Plus over 3,000 Americans on 9/11/2001, least we never forget!
    .
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/62006–the-number-killed-in-the-war-on-terror-415397.html
    .
    I’ll try and find a more up-to-date figure on the total civillian deaths for you formerlyjames.

  • 53_3

    formerlyjames:
    .
    That Sleeping White Giant is whispering in Rusty’s ear…

  • formerlyjames

    53, America is tied with about 30 other countries at # 17. All of the most literate countries are previously communist. My source is Wiki.

  • stuartzechman

    Rustydog:
    .
    What does that video have to do with anything?
    .
    Didn’t you read spob’s awesomely helpful linked Wikipedia entry, in which it was made totally clear that Iran has not threatened Israel (the only nuclear power in the region besides –and this is a stretch– Pakistan) with any sort of annihilation?

    “Wiped off the map” or “Vanish from the pages of time” translation
    .
    Many news sources repeated the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB) statement that Ahmadinejad had demanded that “Israel must be wiped off the map”,[5][6] an English idiom which means to “cause a place to stop existing”,[7] or to “obliterate totally”,[8] or “destroy completely”.[9]
    .
    Ahmadinejad’s phrase was ” بايد از صفحه روزگار محو شود ” according to the text published on the President’s Office’s website, and was a quote of Ayatollah Khomeini.[10]
    .
    According to Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, Ahmadinejad’s statement should be translated as:

    The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).[11]

    According to Cole, “Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to ‘wipe Israel off the map’ because no such idiom exists in Persian”. Instead, “He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse.”[12]
    .
    The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) translates the phrase similarly.[13] On June 2, 2006 The Guardian columnist and foreign correspondent Jonathan Steele published an article based on this reasoning.[14]
    .
    Sources within the Iranian government have also denied that Ahmadinejad issued any sort of threat.[15][16][17] On 20 February 2006, Iran’s foreign minister denied that Tehran wanted to see Israel “wiped off the map,” saying Ahmadinejad had been misunderstood. “Nobody can remove a country from the map. This is a misunderstanding in Europe of what our president mentioned,” Manouchehr Mottaki told a news conference, speaking in English, after addressing the European Parliament. “How is it possible to remove a country from the map? He is talking about the regime. We do not recognize legally this regime,” he said.[18][19][20]
    .
    In a June 11, 2006 analysis of the translation controversy, New York Times deputy foreign editor and Israeli resident Ethan Bronner argued that Ahmadinejad had called for Israel to be wiped off the map. After noting the objections of critics such as Cole and Steele, Bronner stated: “But translators in Tehran who work for the president’s office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad’s statement, including a description of it on his website, refer to wiping Israel away.” Bronner continued: “..it is hard to argue that, from Israel’s point of view, Mr. Ahmadinejad poses no threat. Still, it is true that he has never specifically threatened war against Israel. So did Iran’s president call for Israel to be ‘wiped off the map’? It certainly seems so. Did that amount to a call for war? That remains an open question.”[12] This elicited a further response from Jonathan Steele.[21]
    .
    Shiraz Dossa, a professor of Political Science at St. Francis Xavier University in Nova Scotia, Canada who presented a paper at the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust conference in Iran, believes the text is a mistranslation.[22]

    Ahmadinejad was quoting the Ayatollah Khomeini in the specific speech under discussion: what he said was that “the occupation regime over Jerusalem should vanish from the page of time.” No state action is envisaged in this lament; it denotes a spiritual wish, whereas the erroneous translation—”wipe Israel off the map”—suggests a military threat. There is a huge chasm between the correct and the incorrect translations. The notion that Iran can “wipe out” U.S.-backed, nuclear-armed Israel is ludicrous.[23][24][25

    What are you guys talking about?
    .
    More importantly, why do you care? Are you guys Israeli citizens or something?

  • formerlyjames

    rusty, don’t bother to find more Islamic atrocities for me. I believe you. Do we need explore Christian atrocities? No, thanks. We are here and now, not in the past. All of those wars you cite do not justify Isreal’s recent and continuing actions in Gaza to me in 2009. Thanks for the effort. It is indeed impressive.

  • 53_3

    I noticed, too, that he snuck in the Gulf War, Bosnian War, and the “Kosovo War”.
    .
    Interesting sleight of hand here. A secular Saddam Hussein fought the US. No Muslims involved, until the Basra uprising against Saddam was crushed by Saddam himself after the end of the of the war. In that case, some 30,000 muslims were executed.
    .
    As for the Bosnian War, of course, everyone knows the fine gentleman Milosevic who commited crimes against humanity.
    .
    Kosovo was a breif rebellion backed by NATO against a pogram Milosevic instituted to discourage the Kosovar muslims from asserting independance.
    .
    The 73 day bombing campaign compelled him to withdraw and suspend his activities against the civilian population there.
    .
    Just pointing out a few things…

  • 53_3

    formerlyjames:
    .
    Yeah, I knew America was down there, but I was asking about the real America Sarah Palin referred to. You know, that America. The one Rusty belongs to.
    .
    Betcha the literacy rate is lower…

  • rose83

    “Vanish from the pages of time”… I actually have the same hope for Iran’s current regime. Which does not mean I’d nuke them if I had the chance.

  • 53_3

    Joe:
    .
    Some rather nasty developments coming down the pike:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7977982.stm
    .
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29995778/
    .
    I’m not anxious to see what the eventual outcome of engagement is, if Obama can’t develop an extremely stong bite…

  • 53_3

    rose83:
    .
    I don’t favor Iran either, and I’m not interested in ‘chicken and egg’ arguments either, except to voice the opinion that the Palestinians, given that their freedom and land have been taken, have every reason to fight, and that when one engages on only one track, which is deterrence by threat of war, there is no incentive for peace.
    .
    The two links I just posted make the question that spob couldn’t, or wouldn’t answer even more imperative:
    .
    spob, let’s see one reason why the Palestinians shouldn’t fight.

  • stuartzechman

    Rose:
    .
    I’m with you. Not that he’s an important part of the regime, but I can’t wait for this rotten f*cker to go away.

  • formerlyjames

    sz, that is the funniest thing, in the sense of extreme ignorance, I have ever seen.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    I see lots of melons crushing today. But I wanted to say good post Joe Klein anyway. And I know you probably already knew this but I didn’t realize until today that Avigdor Lieberman actually lives in the illegal settlements area. How phucked up is that?

  • persianadvocate

    Mr. Klein,
    As a long-time TIME subscriber and frequent Middle East blog commentator, I demand that the publication triples your salary! Your insights are excellent, sir!
    —-
    I see I missed all the fun here. I’m a fluent speaker of Farsi and can read and write it at a graduate level. In 2006, when Nazin Falthi of the NY Times presented a translation of Ahmadinejad’s October 25, 2005, speech calling for Israel to be wiped off the map, I procured the original transcript in Farsi and translated it for myself. Even an elementary speaker of the Farsi language could tell you with 100% certainty that Ahmadinejad never called, implicitly or explicitly, for any attack on Israel or its people. How many times have we seen news sources in America and influential people repeat the lie about this translation? When will the media own up to repeating this lie and, in a very prominent manner, correct the error? While the blog readers here are obviously astute, I wouldn’t count on the rest of America to simply know fact from fiction. The level of anti-Iranianism in this country is on the rise and people don’t know us from extremist Arabs. Many mistake me for Italian or Greek and have not been shy about their ignorant sentiment towards Iranians. Thank you for at least dispelling some of the myths that have been leveled against us by those honest, integrity-filled Israeli politicians.
    -

  • modi43

    Spob,

    There isn’t much point in wasting time with 53_3. People like that just come to this board to hear Klein preach to the choir. Klein focuses disproportionally on Israel, because A) he knows it brings attention and clicks from the far left B) he is worried that people will think he is one of those “Bad Jews” who actually supports Israel. He’s gotta keep his liberal creds fresh, especially after he initially supported the Iraq war (or didn’t oppose it vigorously enough).

    53_3 apparently thinks Israel is totally illegitimate; doesn’t mention that Israel’s very existence was supported by both the U.N. and the League of Nations; doesn’t acknowledge that the land is disputed and there is nothing holy about the ’67 borders (the relevant U.N. resolution talks about returning “territories,” not “all the territories.” 53_3 doesn’t seem too bothered by 8 years of unceasing rocket attacks on Israel’s south. After all, Israelis are a bunch of war criminals and deserve what they get; oh, except he then claims to oppose collective punishment (when it is allegedly carried out by Israel). Right.

    Jewish history has taught Jews to believe that dicators usually deliver on their threats against the Jews, but Klein and 53_3 assure us that those mullahs in Iran are totally rational (which must be why they continue to do things that isolate their country from the modern world and hurt it economically rather than modernize and grant their citizens full rights). I’m sure Klein and 53_3 wouldn’t mind gambling with their lives if they lived in Israel. What a fun experiment: let’s see if 6 million Jews are exterminated again….

  • modi43

    “illegal Israeli settlements on the West Bank”

    They are not illegal. The land is disputed, and will be negotiated in final status talks (when the Palestinians give up trying to destroy Israel). The relevant U.N. resolution discusses Israel withdrawing from “territories,” not “all territories.”

    George Bush explictly acknowledged, in a letter to Ariel Sharon, that Israel would be able to retain the large settlement blocs. The Palestinians have also accepted this principle in negotiations, including the negotiations of 2000 with Clinton (but I guess that Klein has to be more Palestinian than the Palestinians). Funny how Klein is always so quick to label the settlements as “illegal” or Lieberman as a “racist.” When was the last time you heard him call an Iranian leader a “racist” for their animus against Jews, or a Hamas leader a racist? When was the last time he explicitly mentioned the illegality of rocket attacks against Israel?

    Classic liberal double standards. Meanwhile, the Palestinians are hard at work creating their Judenrein state (should be a real haven for liberals):

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1238562884554&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

    “The Palestinian Authority has issued yet another warning to Palestinians against selling their homes or properties to Jews, saying those who violate the order would be accused of ‘high treason’ – a charge that carries the death penalty.”

    Surely Klein will write about how racist this is….(I’m holding my breath….)

  • rustyreturns

    Very good comment modi43. It is nice to have another sane voice in the swamp.

  • 53_3

    Sanity is relative, rusty.
    .
    BTW, is that Sleeping White Giant still whispering in your ear?

  • spob

    53_3

    The Palestinians should not fight. Every Palestinian attack (and they predated the 1967 wars by the way) justifies the Israeli view that they should simply not trust that if they give up land they conquered in a war that they did not start, they will pay for it in Israeli blood.

    The settlement that was attacked by the ax-wielder was related to a settlement in the 1920s which was on land owned by a Jew. Arabs continually attacked that settement during the 20s and 30s. Are the Israelis require to accept those things as faits accomplis?

    I count myself a proud supporter of Israel.

  • 53_3

    spob:
    .
    But you havn’t given even one reason yet why Palestinians shouldn’t fight.
    .
    And likewise, why do you think that Palestinians should accept the loss of freedom, road blocks, “settlements”, frequent attacks, “accidents”, and imprisonment?
    .
    Even Israelis are unhappy with this government:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7978605.stm
    .
    And Avigdor Lieberman?
    .
    Yes, certainly a fine, upstanding individual…

  • 53_3

    Spob et al,
    .
    So far, you have spouted a lot of stuff, but mostly irrelevant stuff, and have not been able to dispute the contention that the days when Israel could secure it’s borders by overwhelming deterrance are over.
    .
    It should already be obvious that the Palestinians simply will not roll over and play dead. You can argue all the “persuasive superiority of Israel” all you want, but until you convince Palestinians then don’t look for peace.
    .
    It simply will not happen.
    .
    And to both of you, short of an Israeli-initiated nuclear war:
    .
    The range of rockets will get longer
    They will become more accurate
    They will become more sophisticated, including being able to use chaff to fool AMS systems
    They will become more difficult to detect
    They will move faster, giving less time
    They will become more portable
    .
    Now I don’t even have to argue for or against the rocket-builders’ agendas, but technology, even crude technology, will continue to improve, tactics will improve, and the Israel’s position as a small nation in the middle of a very, very much larger population of antagonists will become more precarious.
    .
    It behooves you to consider the fact that war, short of nuclear war, is no longer an option for Isreal, and that some form of viable, equitable peace that includes Palestinian aspirations is the only viable option.

  • spob

    “and the Israel’s position as a small nation in the middle of a very, very much larger population of antagonists will become more precarious.”

    .

    Might makes right? And if Israel gives in, these threats will disappear? I think not.

  • marcyhdg

    So Iran supplies Hamas with rockets that are fired on Israel daily (see article After the war in Gaza http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0314/p25s07-wome.html) and declares that Israel is a cancer and must be wiped off the face of the earth and you suggest………?
    Israel lives in fear for the day when one of these rockets hits the airport in Tel Aviv, ending tourism and pretty much international commerce. The US didn’t let Russia plant nuclear bombs in Cuba even though we really didn’t think that Russia would start a nuclear war. But we understood that the mere threat of a bomb off our shores would have changed the balance or power. And that we could not allow.
    Netanyahu unhinged? He would be if he lets this happen.

  • themaverickformerlyknownasbasilbrush

    “they are a dismal, hateful, occasionally violent lot”

    In other words, the GOP.

    “but they have no history of behaving irrationally in international affairs”

    So, they are not in fact the GOP. It’s those little nuances that matter.

  • 53_3

    spob, marcychdg:
    .
    You can spout all you want, really!
    .
    It makes no difference. My point is, regardless of the agenda of the rocketeers, Isreal cannot stop the march of technological progress and even though you hug the deterrance solipism even more tightly, it has already failed.
    .
    Next stop, two, and only two choices:
    .
    1. Nuclear war
    2. Make an equitable peace
    .
    The choice is yours…

  • 53_3

    I should modify these choices:
    .
    1. War, escalating to an exchange of WMD
    2. Make an equitable peace

  • 53_3

    I have no sympathy. Isreal does not want peace, and never did.
    .
    “Israel lives in fear for the day when one of these rockets hits the airport in Tel Aviv, ending tourism and pretty much international commerce.”
    .
    You of course, must be aware that Hizb Allah already has missiles that can reach Tel Aviv.
    .
    And as bad is this may sound, you all relentlessly avoid the fact that to solve this problem Isreal must make an equitable peace. Don’t ask me, ask the Palestinians!
    .
    After all, aren’t they the ones that you need to convince? Deterrance hasn’t and won’t work. Gaza and Lebanon proved that.
    .
    So now what? More war?
    .
    I suggest Isreal get out of the prison business and make peace.

  • 53_3

    Oh, and your relentless paranoia completely ignores the fact that the Arabs have offered universal recognition, peace treaties and trade ties if Isreal gives up the post-1967 territory.
    .
    It’s really simple to me:
    .
    It’s not that Israel can’t, its that Israel just dont wanna.

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