In the Arena

Terror’s Next Wave?

The leader of the Pakistani Taliban, Baitullah Mehsud–who likely planned the assassination of Benazir Bhutto–has claimed credit for yesterday’s horrific attack at the Pakistani police academy near Lahore, and he is threatening similar attacks in Washington:

“Soon we will launch an attack in Washington that will amaze everyone in the world,” Mehsud told The Associated Press by phone.

This is not an insignificant threat: U.S. intelligence officials have been worried since the Mumbai slaughter in December that a new wave of low-tech terrorist attacks are in the offing, less spectacular that 9/11–but horrific nonetheless. “We’ve been lucky, if you can call it that, that Al Qaeda has been fixated on duplicating spectacular plots like 9/11,” one intelligence expert told me. “But these latest attacks may be a sign that we’re facing a new sort of threat.”

The Mumbai effort required no local infrastructure–no sleeper cells in India, nothing more than a few boats to ferry the attackers into Mumbai harbor, plus communications equipment and smalls arms. Similarly, and unlike the elaborate planning that preceded 9/11, Al Qaeda or Taliban terrorists could sneak across the porous Mexican or Canadian borders and hit a shopping mall, a government building, a sports event, a school anywhere in the United States. The effect of such an attack–the immediate call to beef up security everywhere–would be staggering.

Our enemies may have increased motivation now that President Obama has focused on the Taliban safe havens in Northwest Pakistan, and has also decided to put increased pressure on Pakistan–especially its Army and intelligence services–to stop aiding the terrorists. Obama’s low-key reasonableness has the extremists on the defensive and more likely to try to change the conversation with new attacks

Secretary of State Clinton has now acknowledged that the War on Terror is not the Administration’s preferred term of art. She’s right about that–calling the discrete campaign against the band of Islamic extremists who attacked us in 2001 a “war” gave Osama bin Laden and his pals a stature they didn’t deserve. It was too imprecise, too wantonly inclusive. It slopped over into unrelated problems, like North Korea–and to jurisdictional fights, like the Arab-Israeli battle, in which terror has been used as a means to achieve a very specific goal.

But even though we may not call it a “war,” that doesn’t mean the struggle, or the bloodshed, is close to being over. Obama’s new Af/Pak strategy is a necessary move, but not necessarily a safe one, however.

Update: I don’t know what to make of this response from Michael Goldfarb, noxious neocon. If he doesn’t somehow understand that an intensification of  pressure on our real enemies, Al Qaeda and the Taliban–eight years after Bush
let them off the hook–might result in some blowback, he’s dreaming. If he doesn’t understand that Obama’s calm and reasonable demeanor represents a much greater threat to the extremists in the court of world opinion than Bush’s cowboy bluster, he has a limited imagination. If you put those two factors together with a possible turn toward more rudimentary, less spectacular terrorist attacks like Mumbai, you have an increased possibility of  trouble here.

And if, God forbid, those attacks come, you know who’ll be first in line blaming Obama for “not keeping us safe” like Bush. But then, Goldfarb is interested in distortion and smears, not argument.

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  • spob

    Joe, the Bush Administration ramped up the Pred strikes against Taliban in NW Pak. I think you’re puffing up Obama’s policy a wee bit.

  • nhautamaki

    Terrorists get exactly what they want every time somebody is terrified. The answer is to put their attacks, and the possibility of their attacks in perspective. For example, every year tobacco smoking causes something like 400,000 deaths. Drinking causes another 120,000. Tens of thousands die in car accidents and suicides. Thousands die in murders. And people everywhere start sh!tting their pants after some terrorists kill a few dozen. Where’s the perspective? 3,000 people died in the WTC attack. How many people died that year of easily preventable diseases like the flu or diarrhea? And yet 2 or 3 trillion dollars and thousands more lives were spent to invade foreign countries in order to prevent, what, another terrorist attack that would claim less lives than the annual death toll of people who fail to buckle their seat belts?
    .
    That psychopath in Pakistan has delusions of grandeur. He thinks he can influence world policy by threatening to kill a few dozen or even a few hundred people in America? What a maroon. Kill a few tens of millions like Hitler, Stalin, or Mao, and I’ll be worried. Kill a few dozen? Big whup!
    .
    And yet. Americans have been trained to care about these terrorists by a media and a political establishment that profit from their fear. What once would not have even made front page news suddenly becomes a key, pivotal issue in the election for the President of the United States, the leader of the free world. Who are the real terrorists? If the definition of a terrorist is someone who terrorises, I’d say it’s the media and the politicians just as much as any extremist in a cave or madras. Blaring articles about orange alerts and graphic images of the results of terrorist attacks is the real problem here. What the media is doing is like screaming fire in a crowded movie theatre because one ignorant jackass decides to light up a cigarette.

  • Joe Klein

    spob–Just to be clear. I support the Predator policy, and special ops in the Northwest Frontier Areas. The Predators have been quite effective, and more accurate than much of the bombing on the Afghan side of the border, which has been poorly and hastily planned on the basis of informaton less sound than the CIA is using–apparently–in Pakistan.

    In any case, though, the Predators are a sideshow: the real threat to Al Qaeda is an America that doesn’t behave badly, doesn’t shoot first and negotiate later, doesn’t harbor a neocolonial disdain toward Muslims. Deprived of a Great Satan, the jihadis have little reason to exist.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Always wondered why terrorists didn’t do that small-scale stuff. This is pretty, well, terrifying.
    -
    And people everywhere start sh!tting their pants after some terrorists kill a few dozen. Where’s the perspective?
    -
    Unfortunately, nhautamaki, that’s not how humans are wired to perceive risks. Something sudden, new, and out of our control is much more likely to stick in our minds. I was shocked to learn that 0-3 people died in the Three Mile Island “disaster.” But it scares people because it’s new. You can argue that our leaders and the media don’t always help us out, and that’s true enough, but that’s just the way we are.

  • spob

    nhautamaki must be an educated man because only an educated person could be this ignorant.
    .

    The point is that if a terrorist can strike at will, they can put a lot of fear into a lot of people. Yeah, this guy may be blowing smoke. But the thought of terrorists killing large numbers of Americans in random and numerous attacks is a bit chilling, and rightfully so, particularly if they have the means to carry it out (we’ll see about that). The two lunatics in DC sowed a lot of fear–was the fear unjustified?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Americans have been trained to care about these terrorists by a media and a political establishment that profit from their fear
    .
    The tendency of humans to inflate unlikely sources of fear and ignore common ones is well documented and cannot simply be blamed on the press coverage. I suspect that Baitullah Mehsud is actually very busy dodging missiles and doesn’t feel compelled to actually have a plan in place before bragging about it.
    .
    spob raises an interesting point. Obama’s reliance on Predator’s is indeed a continuation of a Bushco strategy. The fact that Obama was widely ridiculed for advocationg the same strategy during the campaign seems to have escaped his notice however.
    .
    I’m still waiting for someone to patiently explain to me, why Pakistan differs from Iraq and Afghanistan in regard to the possibility of the USA operating within it’s borders. We had no qualms about leveling city blocks in the hopes that Saddam might be there. What’s the difference?

  • cfukara

    ” … who likely planned the assassination of Benazir Bhutto ..”

    ?

  • spob

    Joe, I didn’t say that you didn’t. I just see Obama’s NW Pak policy as either a continuation of a sotto voce ramped up Bush policy or a “variation” on a Bush theme. I think you puffed up Obama here. Your response didn’t really address that.
    .

    The real threat to al Qaeda is an American that doesn’t behave badly? Are you saying that the Clinton Administration behaved badly towards the Muslim world? Al Qaeda grew a lot during the Clinton Administration . . . .

  • nhautamaki

    Elvis, I’d argue that while it’s true that Americans today are not wired to percieve risks logically, the relevent question to ask here is ‘who’s doing the wiring?’
    .
    People are not born able to logically think about anything. Logical thinking is generally part and parcel of growing up and maturing and getting an education. Unfortunately, the job isn’t always completed. Sometimes people remain stubbornly illogical about something because they have not had a proper education or relevent life experience to draw upon. Sometimes forces act upon people to make them even more illogical, to encourage their base, instinctual, illogical lizard brains, and to suppress their higher order capacity for reason. This is certainly the case in the fear of terrorists. It is also the case in intense tribalism; uniting people against a common ‘enemy’ is the oldest trick in the book for getting them to do what you want. I learned that lesson in grade 3 when I realised I could get kids to stop bullying me for being the small kid by redirecting them to bullying the fat kid. As a resident of China I see how this works in the macrocosm too. Chinese children are trained to hate Japan and mistrust most foreigners on general principle. The fruits of that conditioning were easy to see last year when the Chinese people united ferociously behind their government in support of the brutal crackdown against Tibetan rioters. Never mind that Mao is responsible for probably ten times as many Chinese deaths as the Japanese or any other foreign power; the foreginers are not to be trusted. They just want to keep the Chinese people down. I see the exact same thing in China that I see in America; irrational fear and hatred of foreign ‘aggressors’ used to control the populace and stay in power. Never mind that more American lives have been lost as result of military action taken subsequent to the WTC attacks. The Muslims hate America damnit, and if you’re not with us, you’re against us!
    .
    Realising who is trying to pull the strings and why is the first step to true freedom. Only by understanding the causes of our beliefs, and the likely consequences of our actions, can we conduct ourselves as responsible, mature, productive members of society.

  • spob

    PD, from an international law perspective, the US would be justified in sending troops into Pakistan. A responsibility of sovereignty is that you either have to prevent guerrillas from using your territory as a base from which to attack another country or accept the fact that the other country may elect to deal with the problem itself.
    .

    “The fact that Obama was widely ridiculed for advocationg the same strategy during the campaign seems to have escaped his notice however.”
    .

    Au contraire. Obama was not widely criticized for advocating the ramping up of Pred strikes, but rather recklessly promising to send US ground forces into Pakistan, which, while legal, doesn’t seem to be such a hot idea, given Pakistani possession of nukes, their control of US supply lines etc.

  • rose83

    I’m still waiting for someone to patiently explain to me, why Pakistan differs from Iraq and Afghanistan in regard to the possibility of the USA operating within it’s borders. We had no qualms about leveling city blocks in the hopes that Saddam might be there. What’s the difference?
    .
    Paul Dirks, Pakistan has around 150 million people and it’s nuclear. Basically, it’s more dangerous to bully Pakistan than Iraq because Pakistan is so much more powerful. The consequences of handling Pakistan as badly as Iraq has been handled are almost too horrific to think about. That’s why I support a very cautious approach that recognizes things could be a LOT worse than they are in Pakistan. I’m not saying I’m happy that Al Qaeda is hiding out in caves in Pakistan, but let’s not forget that they are effectively trapped there. We shouldn’t assume that things can only get better in Pakistan; that could turn out to be one of the worst decisions ever.
    .
    Signing off now…

  • spob

    “I see the exact same thing in China that I see in America; irrational fear and hatred of foreign ‘aggressors’ used to control the populace and stay in power.”
    .

    The Chinese in power also use the barrel of a gun.

  • Matt

    Sounds eerily similar to Osama’s warnings that Bush ignored in ’01…

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    spob is once again flat-out wrong.
    .
    http://mediamatters.org/items/200802210003
    .
    As he was on this topic as well.
    .
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/28/AR2009032802066_pf.html
    .
    You’d think that knowing his track record, he might slow down with the provably false assertions.

  • nhautamaki

    spob–yes it was. The two DC lunatics killed probably less people than had died in the same period of time in car accidents in the DC area. People had no more cause to be afraid of them than they had to get into their car.
    .
    It’s like bungee jumping. Naturally it’s a fearful experience, but logically, you know that bungee jumping is very safe and accidents very rarely happen. You’re no more likely to die bungee jumping than you are to die getting hit by a vehicle as you’re walking down the sidewalk. And so yes, that fear may be natural, but it’s illogical and it can be overcome. If someone offered you a thousand dollars to do a bungee jump, you’d be highly illogical to turn it down. If you stayed at home and risked losing your job, for example, during the DC shootings, you would be acting highly illogically and if I was your boss, I wouldn’t be too happy about it. But then again I’m a really forgiving guy and I’d let it go, which is why I’ll probably never make a good boss.
    .
    If you think that letting foreign policy be dictated by a few psychopaths in caves is logical, I’m afraid that’s just insane. The reason that Obama is forced to take this somewhat seriously is because the public has been trained by the fear mongering previous administration and their happy collaborators in the press that need to sell copy and nothing sells like fear to demand that he do so. Luckily, Obama has the advantage of being somewhat competent and intelligent and doesn’t need fear to sell his agenda, so hopefully we’ll gradually return to some level of sanity. Much to the consternation of the press I’m sure.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    @rose83
    .
    Just to clarify. I’m not actually advocating a more agressive US military posture in Pakisatn. I’m just noting the hypocrisy that’s literally built in to our predominant narratives on the subject.

  • nhautamaki

    Spob: “The Chinese in power also use the barrel of a gun.”

    Is that supposed to be an indictment? I mean what does that even mean? You honestly think that Chinese people are less nationalistic than Americans? That the Chinese government only maintains power through the threat of violent force? In the case of the Tibetans; yes. But the overwhelming majority of Chinese people are almost fanatically nationalistic and have a severe ‘circle the wagons’ complex when it comes to any criticism whatsoever of how the Chinese government runs things.
    .
    At least you are willing to listen to me and debate with me. If I talked to you this way and you were Chinese, likely you’d be threatening to hunt down my IP address and post my personal information on a website specialising in ‘outing’ China-haters, so that rabid Chinese nationalists could phone me to harass me 24 hours a day, lobby my boss to fire me, lobby the government to revoke my visa and expel me, or just personally come and kick my ass.

  • nhautamaki

    Spob–if you don’t believe me, just try making a few posts critical of China in the China blog and see what happens….

  • stuartzechman

    Thank you so very much for responding to commentary, Joe Klein.
    .
    Staying engaged with your readers is an excellent way to make certain that your reporting is clearly understood, so that proper conclusions can be drawn, and relevant questions can be posed.
    .
    Thanks again for your important clarification.

  • cfukara

    Paul Dirks Says:
    ” .. We had no qualms about leveling city blocks in the hopes that (?) might be there. ..”

    Are you in this case carefully avoiding the use of the word “terror” or the phrase “unleashing terror among innocent civilians”?

    .

    nhautamaki said:

    “That psychopath .. has delusions of grandeur. He thinks he can influence world policy by threatening to kill a few dozen or even a few hundred people in America .. ”

    “world policy”?
    Do you remember the saying: “We will bomb them back into the stone age!”

    OurThe west’s threats (to unleash holy terror mostly on civilian populations?) and our overt/covert actions around the world does ” kill a few dozen or even a few hundred people “.
    Can we refer to Nixon/Kissinger’s delusions of grandeur in the execution of a ‘world policy’ in Vietnam?
    Well. Sometimes, often times, it works for us.

  • stuartzechman

    Commenters:
    .
    …the real threat to Al Qaeda is an America that doesn’t behave badly, doesn’t shoot first and negotiate later, doesn’t harbor a neocolonial disdain toward Muslims. Deprived of a Great Satan, the jihadis have little reason to exist
    .
    I can’t think of a better synopsis of the difference between the discredited orthodoxies of the neo-conservative cult, and the realist, comprehensive approach of the Obama Administration, can you?
    .
    Joe Klein has out-Obama’ed the great communicator Obama with this cogent rationale for a transformed foreign policy.
    .
    Extraordinarily well said, Joe Klein…Impressive.

  • nhautamaki

    cfukara: I can’t really figure out if you’re agreeing or disagreeing with the general thrust of my arguments here, but I will say that regardless, comparing the capabilities of the American military and the capabilities of a few dozen or even few hundred extremists with small arms is kind of silly….

  • cfukara

    rose83 Says:

    ” .. Basically, it’s more dangerous to bully Pakistan than Iraq because Pakistan is so much more powerful. ..”

    “bully”!
    That is a brutal indictment, rose.
    Its seems to be geared toward distracting us from the good works and the crusade to spread democracy all over the world and beyond. Are you, or have you ever been, a vile communist? ;-|

  • shakrai

    The threat of a Mumbai style attack should be a wake up call for those who are calling for new gun control measures. From this writers perspective, an armed populace would seem to be our first line of defense against such an attack. Does anybody recall the cameraman who took one of the few (the only?) photos of the attackers, saying “I wish I’d had a gun, not a camera.”?

  • nhautamaki

    stuart_z: nice to see you give credit where credit is due. Still, we’ve been saying basically that same thing here for years…
    .
    It does feel ever so vindicating to see it finally gain at least a little mainstream traction though, I must admit.

  • spob

    Don’t compare how people come to power here with how they do so in China.
    .

    PD, god, this is tiresome. I haven’t been proven wrong in here. And by the way, my track record is pretty good. Wanna redo the debate over the confiscatory tax on AIG bonuses?
    .

    First, we’re not hypocritical simply because we recognize limitations on power use. Would we be hypocritical if we invade Sudan to deal with Darfur, while ignoring Zimbabwe?
    .

    Second, Obama’s Paki comments during campaign were reckless. It’s one thing to quietly deal with a problem with Pred strikes. Quite another to specifically call out the leader of an ally and threaten a lot more than just a Pred strike. Obama’s current comments (as distilled, they aren’t all that consistent) reflect a bit more circumspection.

  • nhautamaki

    shakrai: The rate of death by guns in America is higher by orders of magnitude than any other country not in a war. Gun ownership and gun availability already costs Americans more lives than a dozen Mumbai attacks a year could. Your logic is like saying ‘we should reconsider our stance on assisted suicide. The easiest way to prevent terrorists from killing us is to kill ourselves first!’

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Wanna redo the debate over the confiscatory tax on AIG bonuses.
    ,
    Um no. You’re too oblivious to have noticed that we agree.

  • shakrai

    nhautamaki: Guns are nearly as accessible in other countries (Finland, Switzerland, Norway) as they are in the United States, yet those countries have lower violent crime rates than we do. By contrast, they aren’t accessible at all (legally) in other countries (Russia) with a MUCH higher violent crime rate than the US. Clearly, socio-economic factors matter more than the availability of firearms. Perhaps we should be looking at improving those rather than looking at infringing on constitutionally protected rights?

    Anyway, we are getting off topic. My underlying point was that an armed populace is a deterrent to Mumbai style attacks. Israel’s experiences would seem to confirm this. You ignored this point and went off on an unrelated rant.

  • spob

    Sorry PD on the AIG bonus point, hard to keep track of which moonbat I am swatting down.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    You flat-out asserted that waterboarding yielded good intelligence. You’re wrong. You flat out asserted that Obama advocated invading Pakistan. You’re wrong. I could backtrack and pick out plenty more instances but your pattern of simply ignoring such inconveninces reminds me that the exercise is pointless.

  • nhautamaki

    spob–The only objective way to compare systems is by looking at the results, and this may seem almost offensive to your sensibilities, but the Chinese system of selecting national leadership has a far, far, better track record of producing effective, rational leadership in the last 30 years than America’s. The only thing more dramatic than the decline of America as a global superpower in the last two decades is the rise of China. Hu Jintao is 100 times the statesman that George Bush is, by any objective measure. He has presided over the greatest improvement in quality of life for the greatest number of people in the shortest amount of time in history. I have been here and seen it and lived it. Meanwhile, George Bush took the greatest nation in history and completely ran it into the ground in less than a decade. You have been there, and seen that, and lived it. So have many of my American friends, who ultimately decided to come to China and try their luck in a country that’s actually growing and succeeding economically.
    .
    I think you have a somewhat antiquated idea of how leadership is chosen in China. This isn’t a monarchy. There’s very little nepotism at the top levels; certainly no more than there is in America. Chinese leadership may not be subject to a mass vote by the total populace, but they are elected in the sense that they are chosen by the majority of the country’s best and brightest from among the country’s best and brightest. America got darn lucky with Obama in that he is actually among the country’s best and brightest. The average upper-echelon politician? Not so much….. And certainly the average American has proven themselves over and over again to be far from educated enough on the issues or the stances of the policitians or even basic geography, history, and current affairs, to be making decisions on the policies of America. And yet they are asked to do so every two years. Is that really such a superiour system? If it wasn’t for the success of other democracies, if we were only comparing China and America, you’d have a pretty tough case to make….

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    socio-economic factors matter more than the availability of firearms.
    .
    That’s a fancy way of pointing out that Americans like guns and like to glorify their use. Certainly the historical precident of settlers preceding the politicians and soldiers in the march West has influenced our cultural heritage in unavoidable ways.

  • kathy

    I pray attacks don’t happen. I assume that since Bush got a pass from the right for failing to prepare in his first 9 months (Bush kept us safe), that Obama won’t be responsible until after September for anything that happens on his watch.
    .
    I always thought this kind of attack would wreak the most terror in this country. We’ve only got to look at what happened when a couple of kooks modified a car and gripped the Capitol with fear when they went on a one-at-a-time shooting spree at gas stations. But I’ve also never thought there was much benefit in having a discussion about what would terrorize us the most.

  • pirate wench (demwoman)

    shakrai – ye may not be lookin’ a’ th’ whole horizon, matey – it be our lax-type gun laws tha’ would be makin’ it ridiculous-easy fer’ th’ attackers t’ get whatever they be needin’ t’ carry out their scurrilous mayhem! If we really be serious ’bout stoppin’ these here low-tech sort o’ attacks, don’t ye be thinkin’ we ought t’ be makin’ it a wee bit more difficult fer th’ rogues t’ be acquirin’ th’ means t’ do their damage? We be just one gun show ‘r two away from armin’ th’ enemy, by my lights.
    .
    YARR!

  • shakrai

    Paul: No, that’s a fancy way of saying that the causes of violent crime are more complicated than the mere availability of firearms. Said another way, correlation does not equal causation.

    And what’s wrong with liking guns anyway?

  • stuartzechman

    Perhaps we should be looking at improving those rather than looking at infringing on constitutionally protected rights?
    .
    Hear! Hear!

  • shakrai

    pirate: How effective was India’s tough gun control measures at keeping the attackers from procuring firearms?

    Nice accent, btw.

  • spob

    I am wrong because WaPo says so? Try this on for size:
    .
    http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTEzMjc3YWU3ZmJiNzA3NThhNjdiMmY4MDkzNjRlMDY=

    RE: Invasion here’s a quote from the Saint:

    “There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered 3,000 Americans,” Mr Obama will say at the Woodrow Wilson International Centre for Scholars.

    “They are plotting to strike again. It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al-Qa’eda leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won’t act, we will.”

    .

    Remember, that the 2005 attack plan would not necessarily have been just a bombing run.

    .

  • spob

    To our Finn, I am done. The Chinese method of selecting leadership is better than ours. Gotcha.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    And what’s wrong with liking guns anyway?
    .
    http://www.onepaper.com/stthomasvi/?v=d&i=&s=News:Local&p=1223616767
    .
    I don’t know. You tell me…..

  • stuartzechman

    Dirks:
    .
    Can you seriously describe the situation in the USVI to “liking guns”?
    .
    Isn’t that a little imprecise?

  • nhautamaki

    shakrai; Israel is one of the very few places where a general sense of caution about terrorist strikes is actually rational. Not only that but because all Israelis have a mandatory 2 year military service, the general population is actually sufficiently trained to safely own a gun. To compare their situation to America would be innaccurate.
    .
    I do agree that obviously socio-economic factors are a much greater predictor for violent crime than the legal status of the availability of guns for the general population and that it would make way more sense to focus on those factors if the goal is to improve the general quality of life of the population. But I would further go on to say that that does not imply that gun ownership is a total non-factor. The other nations you cite do not, I believe, have handguns for sale in supermarkets and easily obtainable concealed weapons permits. I admit I’m not sure on that, but it’s certainly the case in Canada, though Canada actually has a higher rate of gun owernship than America technically.
    .
    You talk about how Russia has a high violent crime rate despite having strict gun control; I would think that the situation in Russia and China would be far worse if everyone could legally own a gun and carry it around concealed on their person. That would be my impression from first hand experience. Every Chinese and Russian person I’ve talked to whole-heartedly agrees. Americans always think about how great it is to own a gun. For some reason they never think how much it sucks when a drunken, enraged person has got a handgun on them. Moreover, legalising guns at all just makes it that much harder to keep criminals from getting them. It’s actually hard for gangsters in Japan, Russia, China, etc, to get their hands on working firearms because they are just not readily available by any means. They can’t be stolen out of stores or houses. They can’t be stored by mules with licenses. I have not actually seen a gun outside of armoured car guards since I’ve come here.

  • shakrai

    So if I can find a few articles about DWIs I can convince you that liking cars is a bad thing?

  • stuartzechman

    easily obtainable concealed weapons permits
    .
    I hadn’t realized that these permits were “easily” obtainable.
    .
    Are they on par with fishing licenses?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Children are shooting each other in broad daylight. They treat their weapons like toys. The notion that there’d be less of a problem if more people were armed is utterly insane.
    .
    Is that more precise?
    .
    http://www.virginislandsdailynews.com/index.pl/article_home?id=17619494

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    So if I can find a few articles about DWIs I can convince you that liking cars is a bad thing?
    .
    Cars have uses that don’t involve people bleeding out and dying in front of you.

  • stuartzechman

    The notion that there’d be less of a problem if more people were armed is utterly insane.
    .
    Regardless of the merits of the proposition, I still don’t think it’s accurate to describe crime phenomena in the USVI (or any place like them) as being in any way related to the cultural phenomenon “liking guns”, PD.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    shakrai
    .
    The United States has perhaps the most liberal policy in the industrialized world when it comes to gun ownership. Now, name me a time when a citizen in this country stopped gun man’s rampage with their own gun in the last 40 years. This ain’t the olde west and it doesn’t work that way. Its rare to even find an instance where a gun owner stops a crime at their own home. In the case of a coordinated terroist attack you wouldn’t have the advantage of knowing your surroundings better than them and or having a dog to alert you. I would be as afraid of some passerby with a gun than a damn terroist taking pot shots because the passerby won’t necessarily have any better aim or be able to discern who is friend and who is foe. More guns equals more people maimed and killed, plain and simple.
    .
    Or haven’t you paid attention to all the terror attacks in places like Iraq where EVERYBODY owns an AK47

  • stuartzechman

    …Come to think of it, if I were going to live on St. Thomas or St. John for any extended period of time, I’d sure as hell want to keep a firearm…

  • nhautamaki

    spob–it was easy for me to predict you’d be offended when I’ve been attacking two of the sacred cows of America (Democracy is always best, and gun ownership is a right not a priviledge) but if you can’t actually defend your viewpoints using the facts available, your hurt feelings are irrelevent.
    .
    All I’m asking you to do is look beyond the assumptions you were given in your basic upbringing and education and see if the facts actually support those assumptions. Are you so sure they do? And if not, what are you going to do about it? Withdraw, find more like-minded people, and reassure and recondition yourself that you’ve been right all along? That’s the problem with the internet; for all that it allows for the exchange of new ideas, ultimately what we are finding out is that people do not WANT to be exposed to new ideas. They’d much prefer to find people that support and reinforce their old ideas. It’s so much easier and more comfortable that way.

  • cfukara

    spob Says:

    ” .. Would we be hypocritical if we invade Sudan to deal with Darfur, while ignoring Zimbabwe? ..”

    Zimbabwe? How righteous!
    [Some background here: If a few French with known French allegiance controlled our resources and the economy of the USA, our patriots would resist the status quo - and the French would mount vicious campaigns to maintain it. Boston Tea Party anyone?]

    Granted with foresight while pontificating from a non-hypocritical perch, we would promote the invasion Uganda (to get rid of the our criminal Museveni who has killed nearly a million of his own people over the decades) and Kenya (to oust our murderous tribalist Kibaki who recently presided over the slaughter of thousands of his people) and … and perhaps the USA during the Bush years [to forestall the (horrendous humanitarian) crisis that we see in USA and the world today.]

    Hypocrisy helps calm our (vestigial) conscience so that we can live with our phony selves – by rationalizing our malice and the attendant duplicity, right?

  • nhautamaki

    shakrai: I don’t know if that’s directed at me, but you don’t need to convince me that cars are a bad thing. I’ve been cheering on the destruction of the auto companies with great enthusiasm. Cars are an extravagant luxury and they are killing our long term chances of survival on this rock. Using two tonnes of metal and plastic to move a single human being the same distance he could cover with a bicycle, some sweat, and about 10-15 minutes of extra travel time, is an absolutely absurd long-term proposition. People that live 30 miles from where they work and drive an SUV to get there can sit on an umbrella and open it as far as I’m concerned. Can’t get to your workplace by mass transit or bicycle? MOVE. An overwhelming percentage of the population of China lives within a 20 minute bus ride of their work place. It’s just one of the many, many, reasons China has such a big competitive advantage over the US.

  • spob

    My feelings aren’t hurt. I just think you’re an idiot. And I don’t have a dog in the gun ownership fight here.

  • afguy

    shakrai,
    .
    You missed a rather lively discussion yesterday in the commentary on one of Karen Tumulty’s posts concerning the VT shooting, but also remembering the Univ. of Texas mass shooting by Charles Whitman back in ’66.
    .
    Basically, the discussion was about how we tolerate restrictions on constitutionally-protected freedoms in a number of cases (e.g. free speech and the right to yell ‘fire’ in a crowded theatre; drinking and driving vs. driving while drunk or drinking; restricting firearms from college campuses) in order to protect the public.
    .
    As for the terrorists issuing an announcement right now, I compare it to the radar operator in N. Vietnam pointing his weapons radar at an incoming flight of aircraft, turning it on and watching them scatter, jettison their bombs, and take evasive action against the perceived threat. They were now harmless – and it didn’t even cost him a missile.
    .
    Right now, all Ben Laden needs is a tape to cause almost as much psychological damage as any actual attack could do. Plus, he gets the additional ‘treat’ of watching us turn on each other. I doubt he could have personally written a script that would have worked any better in his eyes.

  • shakrai

    nhautamaki: Gun ownership could be a factor in either direction. The gun control crowd always manages to discount the many stories of people that have successfully used guns to DEFEND themselves against crime (in most cases never even firing a shot). I’ve seen compelling arguments made that gun ownership _reduces_ violent crime.

    I’ve also heard compelling arguments made by the gun rights crowd that have little to do with firearms. Such as the fact that most violent criminals already have criminal records. Why are so many of them being let out of jail when they clearly aren’t ready for assimilation back into society? You don’t have to be in favor of gun ownership to ask some of these questions.

    Anyway, it’s nice that “every” Chinese or Russian person you’ve talked to is happy with the order of things over there. Here in America we have a Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms. If gun ownership bothers the gun control crowd so much, at least they could be honest about it and try to repeal the 2nd amendment. Going around it to try and kill it by a thousand cuts doesn’t seem particularly honest to me. It also sets a horrible precedent: If you can infringe on my 2nd amendment rights without amending the Constitution then why not my 1st, 4th, 5th or 14th amendment rights?

  • shakrai

    Cars have uses that don’t involve people bleeding out and dying in front of you.

    .

    And guns don’t?

  • nhautamaki

    spob, how many other countries have you been to? How long have you spent there? I don’t want to make assumptions, but I’ve heard that less than 10% of the American population has made use of their passports in the last 5 years; a staggeringly low percentage compared to other western countries. You’re so sure you’re right, (or perhaps so afraid that you might be wrong), that you are not even bothering to respond to my arguments, but do you really have the breadth of experience to justify that? Is it not a fact that the quality of life in China has increased dramatically for each of the last thirty years while the quality of life in America has steadily declined over the last 8 years to the point that America barely rates in the top 50 in the world in many objective measures such as infant mortality rate, literacy, life expectancy, basic language, math, and science skills among school aged children, and so on?
    .
    Not conforming to basic American assumptions does not necessarily make one an idiot spob. Looking objectively at the facts and drawing ones own questions and conclusions does not necessarily make one an idiot spob. And it’s strange to assert you’re not offended when all you’ve got is ad hominem attacks….

  • afguy

    Cars have uses that don’t involve people bleeding out and dying in front of you.
    .
    And guns don’t?

    .
    Suggest you go read the entire discussion. Nearly all of the rights you mentioned above have been restricted in some way to protect the general public. Part of the price of “promoting the GENERAL welfare”.

  • palininatowel

    As a resident a major metro, I have long thought that a decidedly low-tech attack could be carried out quite easily.
    .
    Back in 2003, there was a case in (then) Bombay of two taxi/car bombs exploding on a busy city street.
    .
    I remember wondering at the time if this was a test run for a similar attack in a major American city. Taxis are everywhere and can stop anywhere without drawing undue attention. The attacks in Bombay were coordinated.
    .
    Frankly, with the ease-of-access to weapons in this country, it is somewhat startling that we haven’t had a significant low-tech attack since 9-11.

  • shakrai

    Basically, the discussion was about how we tolerate restrictions on constitutionally-protected freedoms in a number of cases (e.g. free speech and the right to yell ‘fire’ in a crowded theatre; drinking and driving vs. driving while drunk or drinking; restricting firearms from college campuses) in order to protect the public.

    .

    afguy,

    I’d like to know how restricting firearms from collage campuses (or any other area for that matter) “protects” the public when such restriction is completely unenforced. Such a restriction does protect the public in a situation like a court house where EVERYBODY who enters has to go through a metal detector. It does NOTHING in a situation like a college campus — the law abiding people (whom were never a threat to begin with) will be disarmed while those that would seek to do harm to them will just ignore the unenforced rule against bringing firearms.

    Anyway, I’ll grant you that there are restrictions on certain freedoms. But those freedoms are never entirely taken away. My possession of a firearm in most cases poses zero threat to anybody who doesn’t seek to do me harm. What’s the problem?

  • Cliff

    Joe Klein: Do you have a response to Juan Cole’s reading of the situation in Af/Pak?
    .
    http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/03/30/afghanistan/index.html
    .

    A few thousand Pashtun tribesmen cannot take over Pakistan, nor can they “kill” it. The Pakistani public just forced a military dictator out of office and forced the reinstatement of the Supreme Court, which oversees secular law. Over three-quarters of Pakistanis said in a poll last summer that they had an unfavorable view of the Taliban, and a recent poll found that 90 percent of them worried about terrorism.

  • afguy

    Guess you’re not gonna read the discussion. Os, here goes . . .
    .
    Define “to do you harm”.
    .
    The guy that cut you off in traffic who pissed you off by flipping you the finger? Or the professor who gave you the bad grade in your college class? Or those people standing next to the guy in the bar who took your girlfriend after you’ve had a few? Yes, I know you would never do anything like that while sober and your aim is just a lot better when you haven’t had a few drinks but, hey, you’re just a law-abiding citizen exercising your 2nd Amendment rights.
    .
    What could possibly be a problem? THAT’S why we accept a few limitations, in order to kept bad situations from getting out of hand.

  • nhautamaki

    shakrai: don’t get me started on the criminal justice system; I hate it through and through. Obviously the solution to a ‘criminal’ is to find out what’s keeping him from functioning normally in society, and address that; not just stick him in a giant enclosure with hundreds or thousands of other guys that also couldn’t cut it in normal society for some arbitrary amount of time, then let him back out again. Unfortunately that would require an incredible amount of effort in changing the system as it exists, and the inertia has built up after 200 years of doing it this way to the point that it may never be changed, and if it does change it will be agonisingly slow. So lets just drop the criminal justice system as a point of debate.
    .
    The slipery slope argument about repealing the second amendment is an interesting one, but it’s certainly coloured by your America-centric viewpoint. Other countries manage to preserve the freedoms and rights of their citizens just fine without the American constitution or its amendments. Just because one amendment that’s turned out to be a net-negative is repealed doesn’t imply that other amendments which are net-positives are in any danger. All that’s required is a calm and rational look at the facts. The facts are that America’s gun crime and gun violence are orders of magnitude worse than other developed nations that have stricter gun control laws. The logical conclusion to draw is that maybe, just maybe, a gun in every household is a net negative.
    .
    Creating laws designed to protect people and improve the overall quality of their lives is not always a blow to freedom. Preventing the general population from having guns does not only take away your right to have a gun; it also protects your right to not be shot by some idiot that mistakes you for an armed robber. In an alternate universe we could imagine a strong pedophile contingent lobbying to protect their rights to create and possess child pornography. But surely you don’t think that merely because child pornography might be somewhat socially acceptable in this alternate universe, such a thing would be defensible merely because it would represent a ‘freedom’ that may be enshrined in a constitution. The only way to objectively determine whether such a thing is a net positive or negative is to look at the facts; obviously the victims that child pornography creates makes it a net negative by any objective standard.
    .
    Note that I’m not trying to say gun lobbyists are equivalent to pedophiles and sexual predators; I’m merely trying to illustrate the importance of objetively looking at facts when it comes to writing the laws of the land, rather than reflexively going with inherent ‘feelings’ about a given issue.

  • stuartzechman

    Paul Dirks:
    .
    One of the things that is often lost when discussing the current value of Second Amendment rights to individuals vs the potential dangers to “the public” is the dire fact that courts have repeatedly found –with the most recent example being the US Supreme Court in 2005– that “It is well-settled fact of American law that the police have no legal duty to protect any individual citizen from crime, even if the citizen has received death threats and the police have negligently failed to provide protection.”

    TOWN OF CASTLE ROCK, COLORADO, PETITIONER v. JESSICA GONZALES, individually and as next
    best friend of her deceased minor children, REBECCA GONZALES, KATHERYN GONZALES, and LESLIE GONZALES ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE TENTH CIRCUIT
    .
    [June 27, 2005]
    .
    Justice Scalia delivered the opinion of the Court.
    .
    We decide in this case whether an individual who has obtained a state-law restraining order has a constitutionally protected property interest in having the police enforce the restraining order when they have probable cause to believe it has been violated.
    .
    The horrible facts of this case are contained in the complaint that respondent Jessica Gonzales filed in Federal District Court. (Because the case comes to us on appeal from a dismissal of the complaint, we assume its allegations are true. See Swierkiewicz v. Sorema N. A., 534 U.S. 506, 508, n. 1 (2002).) Respondent alleges that petitioner, the town of Castle Rock, Colorado, violated the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution when its police officers, acting pursuant to official policy or custom, failed to respond properly to her repeated reports that her estranged husband was violating the terms of a restraining order.1
    .
    …[after a great deal of Scalia going on and on about the nature of property interest]…
    .
    We conclude, therefore, that respondent did not, for purposes of the Due Process Clause, have a property interest in police enforcement of the restraining order against her husband. It is accordingly unnecessary to address the Court of Appeals’ determination (366 F.3d, at 1110—1117) that the town’s custom or policy prevented the police from giving her due process when they deprived her of that alleged interest. See American Mfrs. Mut. Ins. Co. v. Sullivan, 526 U.S. 40, 61 (1999).14

    The fact is that, unlike anywhere else in the world, the responsibility for one’s own protection truly lies with the individual, and not with the state. The state does not have a recognized compulsion to enforce the law, even when there is an obvious necessity –even a matter of life and death.
    .
    Law enforcement has no legal duty to respond to or to prevent crime, or to protect crime victims. While this reality should not be interpreted to be in any way disparaging of the many heroic officers of the law who put themselves in harm’s way saving the lives of citizens every day, it is the case that our own duties to our families require us to be the last line of defense against violence, not the authorities.
    .
    The Second Amendment right to possess a firearm is the only real means for an individual to perform that responsibility for their own protection. In the case of Jessica Gonzales’ three dead children, the Supreme Court’s decision makes it quite clear that it was the only chance they had at life.
    .
    How can we even think of repealing the Second Amendment without ratifying another amendment to the Constitution: a right to individual protection by the state from criminal violence, PD?

  • nhautamaki

    stuart_z: I’d say you just made an excellent case for a whole different argument. Personally I find it morally repugnant that the police refused to help that woman, she wound up dead, and the Supreme court rules that it’s her own fault for not protecting herself.
    .
    Just what the heck ARE the police legally obligated to do? Every man for himself is NOT the way to run a modern society….

  • southernbell49

    Many great points being made.

    We Americans can basically ignore 8, 9, 10 or 20 people being killed by one made gunman but if “even” two Americans were killed by a foreign terrorist, the country would lose perspective really quickly and might explode into chaos.

    And I don’t trust the Republicans to behave the way the Dems did after 9/11. I’d be happy to eat my hat if the jokers at Fox tried to rally around the president if an attack happened again on our soil.

  • shakrai

    The guy that cut you off in traffic who pissed you off by flipping you the finger? Or the professor who gave you the bad grade in your college class? Or those people standing next to the guy in the bar who took your girlfriend after you’ve had a few? Yes, I know you would never do anything like that while sober and your aim is just a lot better when you haven’t had a few drinks but, hey, you’re just a law-abiding citizen exercising your 2nd Amendment rights.
    .
    Every one of those scenarios could be used as justification for taking away other rights. What if I run the guy who flipped me the bird off the road in a frenzy of road rage? What if I wait for the professor/guy-in-the-bar in the parking lot and run him down? Better take away cars, or at least ban them from college campuses.
    -
    On a related note, it’s nice to see that you have such a high opinion of gun owners that you are afraid of them opening fire over routine daily annoyances that happen to all of us. Have you ever talked to anybody that went through the process of getting a concealed carry permit? Every one that I’ve ever talked too says that it has made them LESS likely to allow such situations to escalate, because they are aware of the consequences of such a situation spiraling out of control.
    .
    THAT’S why we accept a few limitations, in order to kept bad situations from getting out of hand.
    .
    If you want to keep guns out of bars I don’t think you’d get much interference from the gun rights crowd. It’s already illegal in many states to carry a firearm into a bar. The college campus restriction is just stupid though. Can you really not see the folly of creating an unenforced “gun free” zone that disarms those who seek to do no harm while doing nothing to disarm those that do?

  • stuartzechman

    nhautamaki
    .
    I put forward this argument so that you can better understand why some proponents of the Second Amendment might seem “America-centric”.
    .
    Is there anyone who can point to a similarly insane definition of the role of the state –in which even micro-local authorities have no compelling interest in the prevention of death penalty-quality, violent criminal acts like multiple child-murder– in any other country in the world we could legitimately call a democracy?

  • afguy

    Stuart,
    .
    I’m not sure anyone has been talking about a repeal of the 2nd Amendment. That’s just not doable.
    .
    However, some are portraying the discussion as an “either/or” situation – either the 2nd Amendment is unrestricted or we are taking the first steps to repeal it by limiting it in any way.
    .
    Truth is, we already so some limiting. Don’t think owning heavy machine guns is open to everyone. Nor is armor-piercing munitions. Are fully-automatic weapons available at the corner gunshop?
    .
    The military won’t sell obsolete weaponry on the open market. Aircraft that could have weapons value are destroyed before being resold. Would think THAT would fall under the 2nd Amendment too, if someone wanted to buy one.
    .
    In today’s world, they are what is required to have a “well-armed militia”.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    @SZ,
    I’m not advocating repeal of the second amendment and as a point in fact nothing I’ve said today actually bears on current gun laws. What I have been complaining about is the fact that American culture is such that guns are glorified, gangbanging is celebrated and children in an isolated community of 70,000 people have the notion there’s something cool about opening fire on each other over trivia.
    .
    I feel that the second amendment remains important in that it provides an important check on government overreach. But we don’t need to pretend that guns are fun or that they have any purpose other than killing or threatening to kill a fellow human.

  • stuartzechman

    I’d just like to say this, just to clear my thoughts:
    .
    God, I hate that f*cker Scalia!

  • shepherdwong

    I’m with you, nhautamaki. Terrorism is about exploiting mostly irrational fear. I find it unbelievable to this day how we turned ourselves inside out and did far more damage to ourselves out of fear of 20 already dead lunatics with boxcutters and a diabolical plan.

  • afguy

    I’d just like to say this, just to clear my thoughts:
    .
    God, I hate that f*cker Scalia!

    .
    Stuart, you’re not alone in this. How is he NOT seen as an “activist judge”?

  • nhautamaki

    stuart_z; one of my best friends here in China is the son of the chief of police. He was telling me a story about how a madman got ahold of a machete and started attacking random people on the street right in front of a police station–and no police came out to stop him! Ultimately he was subdued by a bystander throwing a brick at him. Some police wandered out as if by coincidence a few minutes later. That whole police station was shitcanned by the mayor the next day. Of course none of it ever saw the light of a newspaper and who knows how many similar incidents of police incompetence here abound (having spent some time teaching at a police training college, I can only imagine….) but it was nice to know that the mayor did actually deal with things even as he covered them up. It’s nice to know that even in China, such blatant criminal negligence is punished.

  • nhautamaki

    oops, forgot to ‘censor’ sh!tcanned there…. sorry mods =[

  • shakrai

    “The slipery slope argument about repealing the second amendment is an interesting one, but it’s certainly coloured by your America-centric viewpoint. Other countries manage to preserve the freedoms and rights of their citizens just fine without the American constitution or its amendments. Just because one amendment that’s turned out to be a net-negative is repealed doesn’t imply that other amendments which are net-positives are in any danger.”
    .
    You’ve missed my point I’m afraid. If you think you can get 38 states to ratify an amendment repealing the 2nd amendment then be my guest. I’ll shut up about gun rights if you can manage to do that.
    .
    My point was that in the absence of such a repeal the people who seek to impose gun control seek to do so by going AROUND the 2nd amendment. The slippery slope isn’t in the repeal of the 2nd amendment — the slippery slope is in the precedent that we can go around parts of the Bill of Rights because it’s too hard to change the Bill of Rights.
    .
    “The facts are that America’s gun crime and gun violence are orders of magnitude worse than other developed nations that have stricter gun control laws.”
    .
    Orders of magnitude, huh?
    .
    “The logical conclusion to draw is that maybe, just maybe, a gun in every household is a net negative.”
    .
    Then how do you account for the fact that there are nations with liberal gun laws but low rates of gun violence? You’ve already admitted that socio-economic factors are more important than availability of guns in determining the cause of crime yet you continue to insist that we’d be better off with less guns? I’m afraid I don’t agree with your conclusion or even understand how you are arriving at it.
    .
    “Preventing the general population from having guns does not only take away your right to have a gun; it also protects your right to not be shot by some idiot that mistakes you for an armed robber”
    .
    I’m not worried about being shot by some idiot who mistakes me for an armed robber because the odds of that happening are much lower than the odds of me meeting any number of other unfortunate demises (car accidents come to mind). I’m also willing to accept the fact that freedom comes with certain risks and I’m not looking for the Government to mitigate those risks. Personally, I’d rather live in a free society than a perfectly safe one.
    .
    “The only way to objectively determine whether such a thing is a net positive or negative is to look at the facts”
    .
    Yet you refuse to even consider the facts presented by the gun rights crowd.

  • afguy

    I find it unbelievable to this day how we turned ourselves inside out and did far more damage to ourselves out of fear of 20 already dead lunatics with boxcutters and a diabolical plan.
    .
    shepherdwong,
    .
    But do you think the terrorists ever thought we would turn on ourselves to the degree that we have? That our own politicians would amplify that fear to their own short-term (hopefully)advantage?

  • shakrai

    “What I have been complaining about is the fact that American culture is such that guns are glorified, gangbanging is celebrated and children in an isolated community of 70,000 people have the notion there’s something cool about opening fire on each other over trivia.”
    .
    Paul: It sounds to me like you are complaining about two different things. One doesn’t have to glorify criminal acts to glorify guns. In the UK they have a knife violence problem among the youth. Perhaps we should be addressing youth violence instead of assuming guns are the cause of it?
    .
    “But we don’t need to pretend that guns are fun or that they have any purpose other than killing or threatening to kill a fellow human.”
    .
    Hunting, target shooting, pest control and collecting aren’t other purposes?

  • stuartzechman

    Dirks: Thanks so much for clarifying.

  • nhautamaki

    shakrai; I’m not sure what your definition of ‘more liberal’ is for gun laws in other countries. What other countries allow people to buy handguns on the spot at gun shows, and get a licence to carry them around almost anywhere, concealed, after a three hour course?
    .
    That people are forced to ‘go around’ the second amendment in order to pass logical, necessary laws, would seem more to be a general indictment of the American code of laws, than a cogent argument in favour of preserving or increasing gun ownership freedoms.
    .
    As for your third point, that gun ownership rights are really a minor issue, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I one-hundred-percent support any efforts to downplay it as an issue. I believe that gun ownership rights are merely a hot-button issue that actually have next to no net impact on the overal quality of life of average people in America, and that the issue was created and is used by unscrupulous politicians to manipulate a gullible electorate and drum up support around election time, in lieu of actually being in any way competent to form public policy.

  • shepherdwong

    “But do you think the terrorists ever thought we would turn on ourselves to the degree that we have? That our own politicians would amplify that fear to their own short-term (hopefully)advantage?”
    .
    afguy: I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: George Bush was Osama bin Laden’s wet dream.

  • nhautamaki

    Damn I really need to go to bed. I’ve missed this blog. The best, most enlightening conversation/debate I’ve been able to find on the web.
    .
    Cheers and goodnight to everyone, even if you think I’m an idiot ;p

  • afguy

    “I’m also willing to accept the fact that freedom comes with certain risks”
    .
    Just hope that you understand that the round fired from your “right to self-protection” won’t stop at your property line and MAY continue for several hundred feet if you miss. And, there’s no “remorse clause” in the ammunition if the person you hit isn’t who you aimed at. I’m not sure the victim’s family would understand that as just the “price of living in a free society rather than perfectly safe one”.

  • stuartzechman

    nhautamaki:
    .
    I’m not sure what your definition of ‘more liberal’ is…What other countries allow people to buy handguns on the spot at gun shows, and get a licence to carry them around almost anywhere, concealed, after a three hour course?
    .
    That’s what “liberal” means. It means “less restrictive”.
    .
    In the context of political ideology, there is a difference between older, Great Society era liberal orthodoxy, and newer post-Reagan era liberal thought.
    .
    Being a proponent of the Second Amendment is liberal in the latter sense, since liberalism takes a more expansive view of the Bill of Rights than the authoritarian right or the technocratic center. It’s just another individual right, like the First or the Fourth.
    .
    In that context, America is more liberal with respect to individual firearms possession than other nations –both literally and politically– and it is the responsibility of liberals to keep it that way.

  • afguy

    Cheers and goodnight to everyone, even if you think I’m an idiot ;p
    .
    Don’t worry – we don’t. Have a good night’s sleep. Enjoyed the conversation.

  • shakrai

    “Just hope that you understand that the round fired from your “right to self-protection” won’t stop at your property line and MAY continue for several hundred feet if you miss. And, there’s no “remorse clause” in the ammunition if the person you hit isn’t who you aimed at. I’m not sure the victim’s family would understand that as just the “price of living in a free society rather than perfectly safe one”.”
    .
    If I fire a round that strikes one of my neighbors then I deserve to be held responsible for my actions. What does this have to do with anything except to generate a generic victim to support your argument?

  • shakrai

    “That people are forced to ‘go around’ the second amendment in order to pass logical, necessary laws, would seem more to be a general indictment of the American code of laws”
    .
    What you see as “logical and necessary” others see as infringing on their natural rights. One could make an argument that it is both logical and necessary to censor the KKK but that wouldn’t fly under the 1st amendment. One could make an argument that it’s logical and necessary to torture terrorism suspects (the ticking bomb scenario) but that shouldn’t fly under the 4th, 5th or 8th amendments.
    .
    This is the reason why we have the Bill of Rights — to keep our leaders from taking away rights because it happens to be politically popular to do so. It’s SUPPOSED to be hard to change the Constitution. The fact that view that as an indictment of the American code of laws is troubling on many levels.
    .
    “I believe that gun ownership rights are merely a hot-button issue that actually have next to no net impact on the overal quality of life of average people in America”
    .
    You wouldn’t think that if you were a gun owner.

  • nhautamaki

    Last post–seriously.
    .
    stuart_z: That’s exactly my point. Though you restated it much better than I could have, so thank you. Shakrai was the guy trying to say that there are a myriad of other nations out there with more liberal gun laws and less gun violence than America; an assertion I found surprising to say the least….
    .
    As to your last point–luckily I don’t define myself as a liberal and so feel no obligation to maintain consistency in the face of facts that run counter to my positions. I consider myself a pragmatist, which by definition entails forming positions only after all the relevent facts are known, and adjusting those positions to reflect any new facts that may be uncovered. If it were actually proven in any reliable study that liberal gun laws actually decrease violence, I’d say gun activists are on really solid ground. Unfortunately, all the facts I’ve ever seen do not bear that out. A few anecdotes by pro-gun lobbyists about how they protected themselves and their family from a dangerous criminal thanks to the concealed firearm they carry around everywhere does not change the clear overall message of the statistics–which is that the more random people own and operate guns, the more accidents and mistakes happen, with tragic consequences, and the more criminals can get ahold of guns too.
    .
    But again I’d like to reiterate that I consider this almost a non-issue. It’s yet another argument used to divide people into ‘us’ and ‘them’, and demonise ‘them’ in order to convince ‘us’ to elect our would-be saviour and protect our right to own guns (and the right of said politician to snort coke off a hooker’s ass instead of actually doing his job).

  • afguy

    If I fire a round that strikes one of my neighbors then I deserve to be held responsible for my actions. What does this have to do with anything except to generate a generic victim to support your argument?
    .
    Because I really don’t think many understand that, while protecting yourself in your home may be one thing, the pentalty for missing still applies.
    .
    20 excited, armed people in a crowded school hallway, trying to take down a gunman, may end up doing more damage to each other than the gunman ever could. Firing on a range is one thing – the embankment stops the round. Get away from that, and things get decidedly more dicey. With greater consequences for missing. THAT’S why the college campus restriction is important.

  • shakrai

    “Shakrai was the guy trying to say that there are a myriad of other nations out there with more liberal gun laws and less gun violence than America”
    .
    Umm, no, I said there are other nations with liberal gun laws and less gun violence. I didn’t say there are nations with “more” liberal gun laws.
    .
    “But again I’d like to reiterate that I consider this almost a non-issue.”
    .
    Of course you do. You don’t view gun ownership as a natural right and would in fact be in favor of infringing it. Can you not see how those that consider it a natural right consider it a very important issue and will vote accordingly?

  • shakrai

    “20 excited, armed people in a crowded school hallway, trying to take down a gunman, may end up doing more damage to each other than the gunman ever could.”
    .
    Well, by that logic I suppose the police shouldn’t try to do anything about it either. I can’t help but notice how most of your arguments include the word “may”…..
    .
    “THAT’S why the college campus restriction is important.”
    .
    Because more people would have died in the cross fire than died at VA Tech when the shooter was completely unopposed by civilians or police? Please….. — BTW, you’ve managed to ignore my point about the folly of creating unenforced “gun free” zones.

  • smoothjazz2008

    Joe Klein makes a good point that it might be in Obama’s best interests to really tighten up the border. Why can’t terrorists get in that way?

  • afguy

    You don’t view gun ownership as a natural right and would in fact be in favor of infringing it. Can you not see how those that consider it a natural right consider it a very important issue and will vote accordingly?
    .
    Natural right?
    .
    Just for the heck of it, I ran a Google to see what the definition of a “natural right” was. This is what I found – Rights which persons possess by nature: that is, without the intervention of agreement, or in the absence of political and legal institutions. Natural rights are therefore attributable to individuals without distinction of time or place.
    .
    Sounds like the description of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, those “self-evident” truths. What you are describing is a legal right from the Constitution, one which we still discuss concerning its meaning and the advisability of any restrictions thereto.
    .
    Not ignoring your point about the “gun free” zones. Believe it or not, I have some very lively debates with myself, to see if my arguments have merit. Right now, it’s whether or not doing away with the gun free zone at Virginia Tech and other schools would prevent such horrors in the future.
    .
    You do have a point in this case. My question would be if the presence of firearms in that setting, given the stresses of college life, would contribute to more “conflict resolution” with a gun, with the attendant collateral damage.
    .
    Wish you would read the discussion from yesterday – it was a good one, with spob right in the middle.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I found gun ownership as a “Natural Right” odd as well. Only because I have difficulty regarding possession of a carefully crafted modern mechanical device as ‘natural’ anything.

  • afguy

    Paul,
    .
    Hard to have gun ownership as a “natural right” before there were same, eh what?
    .
    By their definition, I wonder if Jesus was a Colt or Smith & Wessen man? Uzi, maybe? Right nationality, anyway.
    .
    Sorry . . . couldn’t help myself.

  • stuartzechman

    You guys are laughing, but could “natural right” refer to the language and premise of the Ninth Amendment, perhaps?

    “ The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. ”

  • sniperct

    The 9th is my favorite amendment.
    .
    But in regards to the gun conversation, I’d argue that gun ownership is as much a part of the American Psyche as alcohol, and outright banning or repeal would go over as well as Prohibition did – or the ‘war on drugs’ is going, for that matter. (Which is to say, not very well.)
    .
    In other words, we’d see a new rise in violence, as bad as prohibition or the drug cartels. That is why you’ll never see a repeal of the 2nd amendment or a serious concerted effort to take away gun ownership.
    .
    What I’d personally like to see is a mandated course in gun safety and respect, for anyone who owns or buys a gun – and everyone who lives in that household.

  • Ffred

    Here comes McCain demonstrating his cluelessness again:

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/31/mccain.afghanistan/index.html

  • coldwarmonster

    I’m surprised that America’s enemies had not already done this. As the article pointed out, it’s cheap and easy. Attacks could be launched from virtually any unsupervised point of shoreline on either coast, and then the terrorists could rampage with whatever weapons they have at their target site(a public location with lots of people).

    This would also be effective for planting sleeper agents, many could pose as illegal immigrants if arrested(the only risk is deportation)and even that risk could be sidestepped with good-quality identifying documents. Sleeper agents could basically blend into the underside of their target city, working low-paid jobs and living cheaply. Then, when the day arrives, they go down to the beach and get handed a suitcase that arrived with a few bearded fellows on a small boat on another patch of unoccupied shore.

    Our little terrorist goes to the public building of his choice, sets whatever timer there is on the payload for ten minutes, and leaves it in a stall in the washroom ,taping a ‘OUT OF ORDER’ sign on the door.

    The two methods above are cheap, and easy to launch.

    Frightening, isn’t it?

  • nhautamaki

    shakrai; you’re right, I don’t view gun ownership as a natural right. I view it as an artificial right, and out of the norm for modern societies. I’m not particularly against hunting and hunting rifles though. I view hunting as a mostly harmless activity, and I’ve considered going on a hunting trip in the past. I have an uncle who hunts deer and bear for food, and I think they’re delicious. Gun ownership as an innate right or even a requirement for ‘personal defense’ is ridiculous in my opinion though. Every stat I’ve ever seen shows that having a gun in the house substantially raises the risk for being injured by a gun, not lowers it. Things in the real world just don’t work out according to the best case scenarios that gun ownership activists fantasize about as often as they go terribly wrong. I’m sorry, but that’s just the facts.
    .
    Overall, I compare gun ownership to my having had a paintball gun and occasionally enjoying a round of paintball when I lived in Canada. I liked it, and I had fun, and viewed it as a safe activity, but if it turned out that paintball guns were extremely dangerous and lots of people were getting killed by exploding CO2 canisters or something and the government ending up taking paintball guns off the shelves, I wouldn’t view it as having one of my basic rights taken away. I’d shrug my shoulders and get a new hobby. I wouldn’t devote my life to this single issue, donate money and time to candidates based around it, and generally identify myself and others by their stances on this one stupid issue.
    .
    And to clarify my point about changing the constitution; I think it’s great that the document your country is founded upon contains so much fantastic stuff, but unfortunate that it inexplicably lumps gun ownership in with the rights to free expression, free religion, freedom from torture, etc. I consider those freedoms to be on entirely different levels. I suspect that the writers of the constitution might have had something slightly different in mind than enshrining the right of people to carry around concealed deadly weapons with them wherever they go. But then again it was a much different time, so who really knows? And moreover, as other commentators have pointed out, every freedom has a vew logical exceptions, so it should hardly be seen as duplicitous or morally dishonest to place logical exceptions on the rights to gun ownership and usage as well.

  • afguy

    What I’d personally like to see is a mandated course in gun safety and respect, for anyone who owns or buys a gun – and everyone who lives in that household.
    .
    sniperct,
    .
    The military had something for the kids coming in who were old enough to drink and drive. The Ohio State HW Patrol Safety films. We sat thru an hour of watching video of crash victims being pulled from under/inside of crumbled wrecks, folowed by, if I recall, a delicious spaghetti lunch. It really got your attention for quite a while.
    .
    I’d like to see something like that as part of the safety course. To show others the results of being hit by that handgun they are getting ready to use, including those a block away who were no where near where the incident occurred. Make them understand that real world bullet wounds aren’t as neat and sanitary as the the shootings they “see” on TV. Then, turn them loose.
    .
    I know it won’t do a thing for the gang-bangers or psychopaths who just get off on that sort of thing. Might help the “reachable” though.

  • afguy

    Sorta like showing the coffins coming back from the war. To make us think about what we are getting ready to do, to decide if it’s worth it to have one.
    .
    I grew up with guns in the house. My wife won’t allow one because of the kids and what might happen. I respect her decision.

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