Re: Citibank

Two words: Thrift Store

KT: ask them to contact Pres Jimmy Carter: he and his volunteers can help poor Citi get its digs into better shape.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/phd9/2703162859/in/set-72157594565763211/

Designer handcuffs.

KT:
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Yes, we’re all really, really angry that the class of people who abused their power and public trust were allowed by their counterparts in the Beltway political-media class to thoroughly screw over our country at no cost whatsoever to their standards of living.
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That said, apart from the relative pennies in conspicuous consumption like the huge “Citi Field” sign at the Mets’ ballpark (local fans have taken to referring to the stadium “F**k You Field”), where and how much money has been spent on what, exactly?
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(continued)

Don’t you get the sense that the public is even more enraged over the idea that the whole bailout is another series of shrink-wrapped pallets of money being left in abandoned warehouses in Iraq than we are over the executives’ lavish compensation for gross failure, KT?
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(continued)

Where is the money going –not the renovation money, or the bonus money, but the real money?
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Thanks in advance for reporting on where the money’s being spent, KT.

High Sherrifs:
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You’re doing a heck-of-a-job.
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I love having to figure out which part of my post will be rejected, and splitting my posts into three separate ones.
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Sure makes me want to post commentary.

I know its fun to play, but the fact that rich people waste money is hardly news. The fact that when it’s coming from corporate as opposed to personal stashes the waste is even more conspicuous is also unsurprising.
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This has been going on for years folks.
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This is the world you bought when you voted for tax cuts uber alles in the first place.

Decorate the walls with the skulls of banking executives.

But are the Citifolk smart enough to assemble IKEA furniture? Sounds like a hex-wrench-ready project to me! (Disclaimer: my SO builds the rooms at IKEA and we have a total of 4 items of non-IKEA furniture in our house.)

And speaking of reporting, I hope someone is sniffing for burrowers at Treasury. The anonymous leaks re: Dodd to NYT, WSJ have a familiar smell, and seem connected to nicely to GOP talking points.

Is anyone doing an hard hitting indepth piece about how the country finds itself in this situation, who should be in jail, what rules need to be changed? No. Too Expensive? Crickets? Maybe we can give some stimulus money to the press and they could cover more than interior design.

Two more words: Depression Chic

Is this really an issue?

Not to dampen the hostility to the financial elites, but didn’t Time Magazine lay off 400 people so they could hire the likes of Bill Kristol and Mark Halperin. Maybe Swampland should have a tall, frosty glass of ‘shut the f@ck up’.

OK, I’ll play. How many Ikea soft seats can they shove up… Oh forget it.

Dear Geniuses at Treasury:
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How’s the bailout working out?

I hear that steel bars are going to be all the rage.

There should be a blog post on the “genius” sitting in the Oval Office. Here’s the latest brillliant quote from the One:

“The same is true with AIG. It was the right thing to do to step in. Here’s the problem. It’s almost like they’ve got — they’ve got a bomb strapped to them and they’ve got their hand on the trigger. You don’t want them to blow up. But you’ve got to kind of talk them, ease that finger off the trigger.”

Is this the second coming of Dan Quayle?

I’m more concerned about their jailhouse tattoo options.

Dear Geniuses at Treasury:
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How’s the strategy of negotiating with the financial terrorists inside of the bank working out?
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The Financial Products [division of AIG] staff met twice Wednesday inside one of the firm’s large, glass-walled conference rooms to discuss the boss’s letter. Numerous employees indicated that they would be willing to return the money, but most wanted nothing more to do with the firm. It was a preview of the possible exodus to come, one that concerns Liddy himself.
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“My fear is that the damage is done,” he told a congressional subcommittee. “That they will return [the money], but that they will return it with their resignations.”
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There is little doubt within Financial Products that he’s right about that.
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“Nobody is going to give it back and then stay,” said one of the firm’s employees. “If they give back the money, then they will walk. And they will walk into the arms of AIG’s counterparties.”

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Hmmm…
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So if AIG’s employees walk, they get hired by firms like Citi’s financial products divisions, and then bet against the hedge funds they know are going to collapse?
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Why didn’t we just nationalize AIG and Citi in the first place, Secretary Geithner?

Or they could try another approach:
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/phd9/3001504638/in/set-72157608635921187/

It’s cute that people think any of these people are going to jail. If and when these guys lose all their money, get caught shoplifting $10 of sundries and have to stand in court w/ a public defender…then they go to jail.

“There should be a blog post on the “genius” sitting in the Oval Office. Here’s the latest brillliant quote from the One:”
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But, but, I thought that Rush Limbaugh was the One! He even said so himself! And his dittohead ‘believers’, agree.
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Spob, yer dumber than a warm rock on a windowsill…

SZ
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We effectively did. Remember Bush installed Liddy last year and fired most of the top execs and we own about 80%. This isn’t a situation where any move is going to easily change everything overnight.
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By the way I caught the convo last night about President Obama’s statement. Well it wasn’t actually a statement it was an answer to a question. A pretty long answer at that but that small part was excerpted of course to make his words look silly.
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There isn’t an “official” transcript that I have found so far but this is kinda how that part of the Q and A session went.
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http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/03/obama-town-ha-5.html
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At one point it was VERY wonky as the LATimes blogger points out. But this is where the analogy to a suicide bomber comes from.
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If you just got one small bank, take the community bank — what was the name of your community bank?” he asked the woman who had posed a question earlier. “If Fullerton Community Bank fails, we’ve got something called the FDIC — the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. — that would take it over, guarantee the deposits and it would be able to kind of sort things out and sell the bank fairly quickly and it doesn’t threaten the system as a whole.
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“When you’ve got big big banks — Citicorp or Bank of America or Wells Fargo — that control 70% of the banking system and all of them are weakening, you can’t afford to have all those banks going under, even though the deposits might be guaranteed. We had to step in, it was the right thing to do, even though it’s infuriating. …”
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Well, OK, that all made sense, but then he compared AIG to a suicide bomber, and at that, we really perked up.
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“Same thing with AIG,” Obama said. “It was the right thing to do to step in. Like they’ve got a bomb strapped to them and they’ve got their hand on the trigger, you don’t want them to blow up, but you’ve got to ease them off the trigger.”

SZ, it’s not just the geniuses at Treasury. It’s Obama himself. He stoked the fires too, and he’s going to sign whatever ridiculous bill gets passed to clawback these bonuses. Obama could have exercised leadership–instead he demagogued an issue. Why am I not surprised?

Citibank renovations?
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Yah. Put yer money where your mouth is! Call up the Millionaire’s Club and hire them to do the work.
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Come to think of it, lets have you CEO’s take the hopefulness out of the name of the organization that sends ‘em out and make it a reality:
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Give them a million-dollar bonus! Why not? At least, even at their worst, they certainly will work harder for that money than you ever did!

“Why am I not surprised?”
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Spob. See above reference to your integillance.

My last two words for the day: Extraordinary Rendition.
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Features:
1) Custom Millwork on their hotboxes
2) Waterboarding with Poland Spring Sprakling Mineral Water
3) Strappado with high-quality soft upholstering material straps
4) Sleep deprivation provided by cranking up Jim Cramer to 11, 24/7/365

Gee 53_3, I may be dumb, but I’m not stupid enough to compare AIG to a suicide bomber.

And I know that Illinois borders Kentucky, unlike the genius occupying the Oval Office.

“Why didn’t we just nationalize AIG and Citi in the first place, Secretary Geithner?”
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I’m pretty sure, SZ, it’s because Obama is mindful of Republican charges of ‘socialism’.
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I’m all for it, because whatever works, works, but some people out there are really skeered. They see commies, terrorists, and libruls behind every corner, and most time, aren’t able to figure out which is which…

“Sprakling”? Sparkling.

Right spob…
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The entire country will founder on those two MAJOR points.
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Shows where our respective priorities are, don’t it?
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arfing dittohead…

I really don’t think spob has enough imagination to understand the comparison of AIG to a suicide bomber.

53_3, it’s emblematic of the fact that Barack really isn’t all that bright. Or he doesn’t use the brain he was given. Either way, it’s not exactly confidence inspiring.

Here’s some reporting from BusinessWeek on which countries received AIG bailout, i.e. taxpayer money:
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Country———AIG-related payments in billions of dollars
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US————–43.5
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France———-19.1
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Germany———16.7
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UK————–12.7
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Switzerland—–5.4
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Netherlands—–2.3
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Canada———-1.1
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Spain———–0.3
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Denmark———0.2
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Total———-$101.3 billion
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Total to US counterparties: $43.5 billion
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Total to non-US counterparties: $57.8 billion

No, he doesn’t. He can’t even distinguish between commies, terrorists, libruls, and regular everyday Americans!
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You know, the ones that are absolutly tired of contrafactual ramblings from people who are so hypacritical as to hold a bigot like Rush up to diety level and then claim Obama is the ‘One’.
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How incredibly stoopid…

spob:
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I don’t get it.
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You do not think that Obama’s suicide-bomber analogy is apt?

It is, spob?
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Two problems. I’ve found in daily discourse with the rest of the country, he has been very eloquent and displays considerable intelligence in discussing issues.
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On the other hand, if you’re not buying that, let’s talk about who else but Sarah Palin!
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Like I said, spob, keep slapping those facts posilutely silly!

A suicide bomber deliberately blows stuff up . . . .

AIG isn’t doing that. They made bad business decisions. Big difference. The bomb analogy that would be right is that the people currently working there are in the bomb squad, but that would mean not subjecting them to calmuny, so that’s out.

Very eloquent, you mean, when he gets to read the right speech from the Telepromter? Or when he’s proclaiming that he was inspired by a Rev. Wright sermon that had this nugget, “white folks greed runs a world in need”. As one physicist said, “It isn’t even wrong.”

I know I understand it.
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But spob probably holds libruls closer to suicide bombers than AIG.
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After all, Rush Limbaugh, the real ‘annointed one’, has stated clearly that those AIG BONUSES WERE A GOOD THING.

spob
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You utter fool, he wasn’t saying they did anything on purpose nitwit. He was saying that if they go down they are taking the rest of the banks with them. If you had more than one diseased ridden brain cell you would have figured that out by now. But as it stands the more you post the more you reveal an IQ some where around the level of a amoeba. Before you try to educate anyone else how about trying to educate yourself. Don’t be a fool your whole damn life.

Okay, so you can’t see the parallel between AIG executives demanding millions in bonuses or else they hire on with their competitors and drive AIG into the ground, and a suicide bomber (or other form of desperate criminal who takes hostages).

I know where they can get a second-hand microwave for free!

Seriously, Karen, I can’t get over the lack of judgment here! I’m real torn on the AIG thing. I don’t like the idea of Congress being able to nullify contracts, but I think they (AIG) should streamline and cut.

Citi seems to have such a crazy sense of entitlement. Where is the wisdom?

The other stupid thing Barack said, and there’s really no excuse for this, since he’s a Con law professor (lecturer, whatever), was that the Senate could refuse to seat Burris. Seems Barack was absent the day they taught Adam Clayton Powell’s case in Con Law. Obama reminds me of a lot of judges. They seem to think that whatever random thought bounces around their melon is somehow genius, simply because they thought it up.

So, sg, let me get this straight. Obama uses the suicide bomber analogy, and I point out the obvious, that suicide bombers deliberately blow themselves up and I’m the fool. Like I said, the bomb squad/ticking bomb analogy is the right analogy–if we’re going to use bombs. To paraphrase Mark Twain, choose the right analogy, not its second cousin.

And it’s awfully rich, you calling me a fool. You’re the one who argued that a white high school student deserved a six-on-one beat down and then, when called out on that, pathetically accuses me of racism. Like I said, Charmin, pathetic.

Sg,

First of all, Cliff, the thrust of his comments were about the federal cash injections, not payments to employees.

Second of all, these guys are being paid to work long hours and are foregoing other opportunities. Wanting to be compensated for that is now akin to suicide bombing? Yeah, they have some leverage. But any employee in demand has leverage. So what?

spob:
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A suicide bomber deliberately blows stuff up . . . .
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AIG isn’t doing that. They made bad business decisions. Big difference.
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Oh, really?
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Must I repeat this quote?
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“Nobody is going to give it back and then stay,” said one of the firm’s employees. “If they give back the money, then they will walk. And they will walk into the arms of AIG’s counterparties.”
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Don’t you get it, spob? Haven’t you read anything about what’s going on? Haven’t you looked into what AIG actually did?
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This scheme that smacks of securities fraud facilitated the dreams of buyers called “counterparties” willing to ante up. Hedge fund offices sprouted in Kensington and Mayfair like mushrooms after a summer shower. Revenue from premiums for derivatives at AIGFP rose from $737 million in 1999 to $3.26 billion in 2005. Cassano reportedly hectored ever-willing counterparties to “play the power game”—in other words, gobble up all the credit derivatives backing CDOs that they could grab. As the bundled adjustable-rate mortgages ballooned, stretched home buyers defaulted, and the exciting power game became about as risky as blasting sitting ducks with a Glock.
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People still seem surprised to read that hedge principals have raked in billions of dollars in a single year. They shouldn’t be. These subprime-time players knew how to score. The scam bled AIG white. In mid-September, when it was on the ropes, AIG received an astonishing $85 billion emergency line of credit from the Fed. Soon, that was supplemented by another $67 billion. Much of that money, to use the government’s euphemism, has already been “drawn down.” Shamefully, neither Washington nor AIG will explain where the billions went. But the answer is increasingly clear: It went to counterparties who bought derivatives from Cassano’s shop in London.

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In fact, due to recent testimony, we now do know that this prediction is largely true.
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Here’s what “they will walk into the arms of AIG’s counterparties” really means, spob:
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The traders who have inside knowledge of AIG’s derivatives can then go sell AIG’s “Financial Products” short, and everybody will believe them, since they’re the ones who underwrote insurance on the counter-parties’ hedge funds to begin with. It will effectively bankrupt AIG all over again, except now the taxpayers own 80 percent of it.
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That’s called a threat. That’s called financial terrorism.
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Do you now understand why Obama’s analogy is actually more truthful than the Treasury really wanted him to let on?

Cliff
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That wasn’t the point President Obama was making although it was a good one. He went through and explained exactly what happened. From the bundling of mortgages, to credit default swaps, to AIG insuring all of the overleveraged derivatives by overleveraging themselves. It was as I said before very wonky but in the end it was like a house of cards. The investment banks and hedge funds were over leveraged and the regular banks were also overleveraged and AIG was over leveraged to cover all that overleveraging. Any one piece of the puzzle falls and all of them were likely to go down in flames. He went through and talked about why it was right to prop up the banks and why it is right to prop up AIG despite the bonuses and excesses in greed. Because if any of them go down it won’t just be them but instead it would be like a suicide bomber taking everyone down with them. And the finger off the trigger analogy was referring to the fact that you want to fix it but you can’t rush it because of the stakes involved. After he made the analogy he talked about how AIG would eventually be wound down. When I get a better clip I will post it but for now this one will have to do.
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That part of his Q and A had nothing to do with the bonuses. He addressed the bonuses in his prepared remarks.

All right, then I misunderstood the context of the quote. But I still feel that the executives are acting like suicide bombers and I still feel Obama’s comparison was apt, in that he’s highlighting the dire quality of the situation.
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Second of all, these guys are being paid to work long hours and are foregoing other opportunities.
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Do you shine rich people’s knobs professionally, or is it just a hobby?

SZ, there’s a difference between being forced to cough up a bonus that you negotiated when you had other opportunities and then walking and shopping your talents elsewhere and at the front-end negotiating bonuses when you have some leverage.

Oh I get that AIG is cooked if these guys bail en masse. But maybe the anointed One should have thought of that before he led the demagoguery. Maybe he should have listened to Summers, who quite sensibly commented that a deal’s a deal.

These idiots are getting worked up about $165MM, when we’ve got billions in this thing. Goyische kopf.

spob
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I guess you are back to your “gangsta rap” persona but nobody is buying it Vanilla Ice. How about this, how about you provide a link or some kind of back up to your allegation that President Obama said.
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the Senate could refuse to seat Burris.

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I can tell you that you won’t find it because he never said any such thing and instead said that he shouldn’t be seated. Big difference dumb ass.
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Now again you have proven over and over that you are dumb as a box of rocks, we get it, you can stop now. Hell at least rusty and hula play crazy so nobody can really call them out for just being plain dumb. I guess you didn’t have time to get your GED since you were spending all that time in county but your arguments are better suited for freeper where likeminded morons like you hang out. You gotta come with something better than redstate and powerline links over here tough guy.

No Cliff, I simply understand that people typically don’t work for free and get pissed when a deal gets retraded and when said deal gets retraded tend to exercise leverage that they have.

“You utter fool, he wasn’t saying they did anything on purpose nitwit. He was saying that if they go down they are taking the rest of the banks with them.”
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Actually, I’m with Stuart on this, I think he may have been saying exactly what our masters were doing. They put a gun to world’s head and demanded cash and, in doing so, coined a new threat: financial terrorism.

Gee, sg, I can see your non-hard militant poseur self is at it again. Man, just stay out of county . . . .

You see, genius, the “could”/”should” distinction really doesn’t matter. In any event, here’s the quote:

“Roland Burris is a good man and a fine public servant, but the Senate Democrats made it clear weeks ago that they cannot accept an appointment made by a governor who is accused of selling this very Senate seat. I agree with their decision and it is extremely disappointing that Governor Blagojevich has chosen to ignore it.”

But given Powell v. McCormack, Barack the con law prof (lecturer, whatever) should have known that the law provided that he had a right to the seat. After all, I thought the rule of law was supposed to be important to you.

No Cliff, I simply understand that people typically don’t work for free and get pissed when a deal gets retraded and when said deal gets retraded tend to exercise leverage that they have.
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Work for free? Who the hell is working for free? Bonuses means payment on top of their payment.
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And if you royally screw your job up, why shouldn’t you have to pay some sort of penalty for it? Like, say, working for free until it’s fixed?

Shepherd, these guys could have asked for a helluva lot more if that were the case . . . .

Cliff, the bonuses were “retention bonuses” and were specifically negotiated for, hence my use of the word, “retrade”.

And many, if not all, of those guys didn’t screw anything up, they are simply cleaning up the mess. If they clean it up well enough such that the taxpayer doesn’t get shafted (still a possibility with AIG), then that $165MM is money extremely well-spent.

You know, Cliff, a little learning is a dangerous thing, so drink deep or taste not the Pieirian Spring.

Cliff, you want some more.

spob:
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SZ, there’s a difference between being forced to cough up a bonus that you negotiated when you had other opportunities and then walking and shopping your talents elsewhere and at the front-end negotiating bonuses when you have some leverage.
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Are you an American citizen?
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I’d like to know because I don’t want to waste any more breath talking to someone who doesn’t give a f*ck about my country.
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Because I care about the welfare of my nation, I think that it really matters when “some leverage” means hurting the American taxpayer and the American economy.
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If you’re not inclined toward patriotism with respect to the United States, then I shouldn’t really be trying to convince you that this sort of leverage is unconscionably wrong, I suppose.

spob
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So uhmm Mr. Gangsta/Constitutional Scholar exactly how DID Harry Reid keep Roland Burris out of the Senate for something like a week? Ill wait while you furiously scour RedState’s archives trying to find an answer nimrod.

“Shepherd, these guys could have asked for a helluva lot more if that were the case . . . .”
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And just where were they going to get “a helluva lot more” money from? The whole point is that all the money is gone, sucked up by greedy fat cats with little or no concern for anyone but themselves. We’re currently running the presses at Treasury 24/7 to come up with what’s needed just to stabilize the system. And, if they could have gotten more, you can bet your last dollar (they would) they would have gone for it. You have no idea who and what we’re dealing with do you?

SZ, really, what do you expect? These people were already taking paycuts resulting from decisions that were not theirs (the brain trust that had made the strategic decisions was gone). So, they could have walked, but instead they chose to stay on, probably for below an amount that they would have gotten elsewhere, and so they used their indispensability to get what look like pretty market bonuses (you guys may not like the market, but hey, I don’t begrudge A-Rod, Tiger, Dale Earnhardt or Tom Brady the jack they make). And now, for their trouble, they have assholes like Barney Frank and Andrew Cuomo threatening to make their names public, and they’re supposed to forego money that they were entitled to out of some idea of patriotism? And now, they’re supposed to stay on at a job where they got screwed out of their money and not look elsewhere?

SZ,
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You just schooled spob in a way none of the rest of us would or could. Alas, he probably won’t notice, but thank you.

geez, SG, you really ought to stay out of two places, the joint and any discussions about law.

First, I am not a gangsta, and don’t aspire to be one. I just have the street cred to call out a bozo like you who thinks that because he listens to Straight Outta Compton you are hard. Going to college and getting militant doesn’t make you hard, SG.

Second, and to the point of your nitwit comment about Harry Reid, having the power to do something doesn’t mean that you have the right to do it. Had Harry Reid simply blocked Burris, there isn’t much Burris could have done except file a lawsuit, which, if you read Powell v. McCormack, Burris would have one, which would have meant that Reid’s actions would have been adjudged unlawful (hence the crack about rule of law).

Ignorance on stilts.

Au contraire, FT.

spob
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I know you hate it when negroes get an education but unfortunately for you I have that right now in this country. What is hilarious is that you don’t even have a clue of what being “militant” is all about. You just like to throw the word around because you heard the idiots on FoxNews say it every night during the campaign.
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And again you are mistaken jack ass. Harry Reid have every right to bar Roland Burris from the Senate until he was certified as the Senator. But you are too dumb to find that out on your own and I don’t imagine Eric Erickson puts that kind of information out on his blog. You are nothing more than a sock puppet with no real ideas or philosphy of your own. If anyone is coming off as “militant” here its you and your kind but you will never really understand that basic fact.

Friar Tuck:
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You just schooled spob in a way none of the rest of us would or could.
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That’s pretty unfortunate for us liberals, isn’t it?
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Why can’t we talk about patriotism? Is that what you meant?

SG, read Powell v. McCormack. Senate cannot add to qualifications. Real easy, genius.

And Sg, I’m throwing around the word militant simply because you sound like a candy ass suburban guy who’s jealous that he has no ‘hood cred so he overcompensates. No matter how much you listen to Straight Outta Compton you’ll always be soft. Like I said, stay out of the joint or else you’ll be some dude’s Charmin, or maybe multiple dudes’ Charmin because you’d accept your punk fate and do a real good job and be passed around the block.

SZ, really, what do you expect? These people were already taking paycuts resulting from decisions that were not theirs (the brain trust that had made the strategic decisions was gone). So, they could have walked, but instead they chose to stay on, probably for below an amount that they would have gotten elsewhere, and so they used their indispensability to get what look like pretty market bonuses (you guys may not like the market, but hey, I don’t begrudge A-Rod, Tiger, Dale Earnhardt or Tom Brady the jack they make). And now, for their trouble, they have twits like Barney Frank and Andrew Cuomo threatening to make their names public, and they’re supposed to forego money that they were entitled to out of some idea of patriotism? And now, they’re supposed to stay on at a job where they got screwed out of their money and not look elsewhere?

You know, Cliff, a little learning is a dangerous thing, so drink deep or taste not the Pieirian Spring.
Cliff, you want some more.
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Ironic, coming from a guy who doesn’t think global warming needs to be dealt with, and who refuses to acknowledge evidence of our Constitution being undermined.

Cliff, do you know that 50 years hence that we will have a huge greenhouse effect and that the oceans will swamp low-lying areas etc.?

You don’t. But we’re going to enact policies that (a) will cost a lot and (b) may not even result in a decrease in CO2 concentration.

You’ve gotten waxed in this discussion. Deal with it.

spob
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You seem to be VERY obsessed with man rape. Bad experience at County? I am sure they have counselors for that nowadays.
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Its amazing that a guy who threw out his hometown (allegedly) his ass kicking prowess, his bball game and talked about how “hard” he was just yesterday is so unnerved by a black man typing on a computer. You see I don’t need to fake anything spob. I am secure in my own skin. I don’t have to say Im from Compton or I am a Crip or I tote guns or anything like that. I don’t profess to be a thug. I hit you upside your head with facts backed up by links to credible information. Its only YOU who are putting out YOUR “hood” bonafides. That should tell you something.

Cliff, do you know that 50 years hence that we will have a huge greenhouse effect and that the oceans will swamp low-lying areas etc.?
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The evidence is undeniable, and yet you deny it.
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And show me where I got waxed.

“You’ve gotten waxed in this discussion. Deal with it.”
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Spoob! Ya you. Gangsta!
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Yo! Y’all didn’t know that the upwardly revised estimate for sea level rise is 1 to 1.5 meters, did ya. Word up:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/dec/16/climatechange-scienceofclimatechange
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There is more to it than just CO2, namely, methane (20 times as effective as CO2), water vapor (80 times as effecitve), ozone (2000)and nitrous oxide (200). All of these rise nonlinearly as CO2 rises*.
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The lifetime of ozone is approximately 10 years, water vapor and nitrous oxide, weeks, and methane is 9 years*. In other words, doing something, anything about CO2 is worth doing as these amplify the greenhouse effects of CO2.
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We have a lot more than 50 years, and unfortunatly, you and your compatriots, who in the past even refused to accept it and tried to politicize science to bring it in line with your disfunction ideology, are totally, posilutely wrong on this one.
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There are shorter-term CO2 cycles besides the geologic one, and artificial ‘sinking’ of CO2 is definitely one way to create an additional path.
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Live with it spob. It’s not Cliff that lost the arg, it’s you!
The Emerald Planet; Beerling, David; 2007: Oxford University Press. (With refernces)

Damn, this geologic ‘club’ I have is mighty handy.
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It makes such a satisfying “whock” when brought upside the heads of numbskulls like spob…

I could do this all day, spob!
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Wanna dance?

No SG, you’re the one who has espoused black on white violence. So yes, you are playing the thug. And yes I am calling out youre soft ass.

Does RedSate even have archives?

KT: Shubberies are the way to go to get the most bang for the buck. Not too short and not too tall. Before painting the offices, ask them their favorite color.

That should have been shrubberies. My bad.

53_3, I am well aware of the properties of methane. The real problem is all the CH4 at the bottom of the ocean. My point, of course, is that you clowns don’t know what is going to happen. You point to a “consensus”, which means, “we don’t know”.

She should pick C4 shrubs though. Much better at sinking CO2.
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Bush didn’t use the Hatch/Slack channel, hence, he’s only a C3 shrub…

Actually, methane hydrate at the bottom of the ocean is not nearly the problem you think.
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Much of that conjecture is based on the used to be called the “End Eocene Terminal” event or the “Blast of Gas”.
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But no one ever reminded you that these clathrates are not stable above 41F and the DSPD drilling program and it’s predicessor have shown that bottom waters during that time were as high as 56F (the lowest estimate was 45F).
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One gigantic hole in the methane burp theory. The second:
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The old estimates were 6000 to 1100 gigatons of light carbon (C13 depleted) generated by methanogens in those clathrates. The new estimates are:
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1500 Gigs.
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You looze. Again!
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“You point to a “consensus”, which means, “we don’t know”.”
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Sorry spob. No dicey wicey here. Only in the minds of Republicans using the stragedy of casting doubt on scientific findings for their political benefit does that definition apply.
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Consensus, in this case, is achived by intense scrutiny, debate, reassessment, and agreement among workers.
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As a point in the sciences, it should be pointed out that no theory is ever provable. They can only be disproved.

spob
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What you could never understand about me is that I endorse ass whuppings on people who do stupid sh*t. I don’t care what color they are. Hell if its 1 white guy vs 6 white guys and the 1 white guy says something about one of the other 6 guys mom I say WHUP HIS ASS. Ass whuppings are a way of life growing up or at least they should be. Those are some of the best teaching moments ever. I don’t advocate shooting anybody or stabbing anybody but a good old fashion beat down is a deterrent to bad behavior. The only reason you give a sh*t about that case is because it was black kids beating up a white kid. I don’t hear you talking about being any kind of lover of peace or a believer in non violence and you haven’t ever talked about a single solitary other instance of a kid getting jumped in America even though it happens every single day across all racial lines. Face it, you’re a racist and you are just mad because of the race of the ass whuppee and the race of the ass whuppers. If you are really so concerned about teen violence go out and organize a march or do some inner city mentoring. Otherwise STFU about it already internet gangsta.

spob:
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SZ, really, what do you expect?
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I expect fellow Americans not to “do their jobs” by the equivalent of selling T-Bond backed-securities short during a time of war.
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…which it is, by the way. A time of war, I mean. Two wars, actually.
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This whole thing amounts to a disaster in which all the bullet manufacturers’ warehouses mysteriously exploded in the same week, and then, while our armed forces in harms way were running out of ammo, ordinance dealers forming a f*cking ammunition-producing version of OPEC to fix prices at astronomical levels the country can’t afford. They’re lucky we’re Americans, because in other countries people who sell their countries out like that would be put up against a f*cking wall, and shot.
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The argument isn’t even “what do you expect them to do”, spob, it’s “what do they expect us to do to them”.

That’s probably why he hates OJ too, sg.
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He’s ignore white people like the menendezes and others who used money and influence to buy the system, but OJ?
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Bad berries! He only did the same thing white people do all the time.
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What he will never understand, is whatever the views on someone like OJ or the different case of Jena Six is that they both gave us several gifts:
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1. The end of ‘all white juries’ in the legal system
2. Bringing to the world the issue of ‘customary racism’
3. The end of the practice of involving racially motivated witnesses in crime cases to obtain easy convictions
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I would say that he spob doesn’t give a sh!t that the Black American who touched it off felt he had to ask the principal if he could sit under that tree.
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To spob, this is normal!

Fergot:
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4. The practice of using sentancing-range guidlines to implement racially motivated judgements.

53_3: I really do appreciate the backup, but the original argument was about Obama’s comparison of AIG to a suicide bomber.
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I don’t recall spob making a convincing argument that the comparison was false, or that I should in any way feel bad about making banking executives give back their bonuses.

53_3, check the end of the Permian.

Oops!
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I will correct myself, but also, to spobs infinate detriment, add references:
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I confused Le Grand Coupure (formerly EET) wtith the end-Paleocene “Blast of Gas” which took place 54.7 Mya. My bad.
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That clarified, here are the references alluding to bottom-water temperatures (differentials obtained from benthic and planktonic foraminifera were adjusted for):
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Miller, K.G., R.G. Fairbanks, and G.S. Mountain, 1987. Tertiary oxygen isotope synthesis, sea level history, and continental margin erosion. Paleoceanography 2:1 – 59
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Zachos, J. C., L. D. Stott, and K. C. Lohmann. 1994. Evolution of early Cenozoic marine temperatures. Paleoceanography 9:353 – 387
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Zachos, J. C., L. C. Sloan, E. Thomas, and K. Billups. 2001. Trends, rhythms, and aberrations in global climate 65 Ma to present. Science 292:686 – 693

spob:
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The end of the Permian was even murkier, and even worse. Some workers favor it as one of many possible explanations but there are many, many views and no real direct proof that a methane burp occured. They needed a source of very light carbon to account for the enormous swing in carbon isotope values. (Approximately 6 to 8 per mil). Volcanism, even from the Siberian Traps wasn’t considered enough.
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However, competing theories invoke the Traps’ magma eruptions eating up the carbonate (organic) under enormous Carboniferous-era coal seams to produce light carbon in large enough quantities to account for the swing.
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Just like the Early Eocene event, the Permian theory is fraught with the very same bottom water problem. We have a stratified (canfield-type) ocean with anoxic surface waters and euxinic bottom waters that were probably too warm at depth to allow such clathrates to form.
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Unfortunately, since the oldest oceanic crust is approximately 170,000,000 years old, there isn’t any possibility of using the differnce between benthic and palegic micro- flora or fauna to determine bottom water temps.
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Methane burps as a means of causing mass extinctions in general has lost it’s luster.

Sorry Cliff:
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I wanted the opportunity to catch him on his science.

SG:
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Ass whuppings are a way of life growing up or at least they should be. Those are some of the best teaching moments ever. I don’t advocate shooting anybody or stabbing anybody but a good old fashion beat down is a deterrent to bad behavior.
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Oh, man.
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You’re not actually advocating for group-against-one violence, are you, SG?
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By “a good old fashion beat down” you mean a “one on one fist fight involving honorable fighting techniques“, right?
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Please, please issue a clarification on that, SG. You don’t really believe that it’s honorable in most cases for groups of people to beat the crap out of individuals in order to punish non-conformity. I know that you don’t believe that. That’s evil in every situation I can think of, excepting extreme conditions like armed forces barracks and prison, perhaps.
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No, you couldn’t possibly make that argument. Right?

No sh * t, 53_3. The methane burps probably didn’t cause the Permian mass-extinction, just the German navy’s expansion didnt cause WWI–but it didn’t help and made a problem worse. Mass release of methane hydrate from sea floor (which would be tough, since you’d have to heat all that really cold water) would be a problem, which is all I said.

They’re also looking for evidence of an asteroid strike at end of Permian. Who knows, but we all know that warming itself is simply not ebnough to cause the kind of mass-extinctions found at the end of the Permian. The problem appears to be atmospheric low 02 and enough poison in the atmosphere (SO2?) to kill a lot of sea life as well.

Don’t resort to rhetoric in scientific debate, spob.
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You’re in the big leagues, now.
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First, let me repeat:
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There is no clinching geologic or paleochemical traces that are convincingly attributable to methane alone. It remains a theory, only, and one of many. You cannot have hydrate clathrates above 41F and that is all there is to that!
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Luann Becker’s assertions about Buckyballs and Iridium in bed 24 or 25 at the Meishan GSSP have not been duplicated, as of yet, at any other lab despite using splits of her own samples. Bedout is not large enough and is still not deemed to be an impact site. On top of all this, the Wilkes Land mascon has not yet been confirmed as an impact site either.
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I’m one who believes that impact might have an influence in the P/T mass extinction, but note that during and after the K/T impact, no methane hydrates were known to have been destabilized and the bottom waters 64.98Mya were colder than those of the early Paleocene.
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In addition, a deep water impact is much different in character than a continental (continental margin) impact like Chixulub. For one, the water, surrounding the entry path of the impactor will remain in place long after the shock waves of the initial impact propegate through the seafloor, creating a sort of “blister” with the skin being one to three kilometers of water on top of the expanding ejecta fireball.
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Hence, not only will there be a lot less debris distributed around the world given equal-sized impacts, they will through thousands of times as much water vapor into the atmoshpeere. With 80 times the effectivess of CO2 as a greenhouse gas, the superhot steam can have a decided effect on subsequent climate without having to invoke methane (for supergreenhouse effects). Note that there will be no shocked quartz as the impact site is entirely basaltic.
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The SO2 you refer to is what I referred to when I mentioned the ‘Canfield Ocean’. In this scenario, sulfate consuming autotrophs are considered the culprit. Any methane escaping from methanogic sources would be used by these autotrophs to sink methane and produce SO2 and CO2. This is a better explanation since the bottom waters were likely too high for clathrate formation.
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Like I said, because the current estimates of only 1500 gigs of light carbon in clathrates (remember, the earth is the coldest its’ been in a minimum of 330,000,000 years) exist, it is not enough either to explain the swing in the carbon isotope curve.
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An additional problem is that there is really no way to synchronize the destabilization of clathrates. They exist at too great a range of deptths even if the entire ocean bottom was below 41F. It is wothy of not that clathrate deposits are not contiguous meaning that they are only locally vulnerable to destabilization and the much needed ‘chain reaction’ to destabilize them within a geologically short period of time no longer exists – barring impact, which is not in the cards at the moment.

We have a stratified (canfield-type) ocean
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Wow! “canfield” as in Dan Canfield.
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http://fishweb.ifas.ufl.edu/Canfield/Canfield.htm
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A real person with a real, cantankerous personality. I didn’t know he was considered to be the owner of stratification, but he deserves it if anyone does. For a great read that includes some stories about Canfield before he was (canfield), I recommend Bill Green’s Water, Ice, and Stone, ISBN 9781934137086.

53_3, Canfield’s early work was limnological (small bodies of usually fresh water). Does this translate well to large bodies of saltwater with (presumably) a system of tranfer currents that mix layers?

Hey thanks, Friar!
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Yup. The very same. Did you know him?
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I’ve always been on the lookout for good books all this stuff. Thanks!
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He did some work on the the evolution of the ocean under the influence of the evolving atmoshpere spanning the 3.5 billion years since life took hold, so I see a lot of his work, or work built on his. One of the best and a major, major contributor to understanding paleoceanography and paleochemical aspects of it!

sz, I look forward to that clarification as well. But I assume that it won’t be: By “a good old fashion beat down” you mean a “one on one fist fight involving honorable fighting techniques”, right?
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The fact is, there are no rules in a street fight, which is why they are to be avoided at almost any cost and waged viciously if unavoidable (which is yet another reason to avoid them in the first place). Everyone loses in a street fight.

I’ve heard of his limnological work. I don’t know much about it though.
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He worked out scenarios charactizing the oceanic water column under conditions where the atmosphere was anoxic and high in CO2. He worked with modelling world ocean circulation regimes under a wide variety of conditions.
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The ‘Canfield Ocean’ was one of his most widely invoked regimes.

Friar:
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BTW, I could tell that spob has read Hallam and Wignells’ book (Extinctions?). I can’t remember the exact title, but it’s getting pretty dated as there has been a lot more up-to-date work since then.

53_3, I only know Canfield through the book I referenced, but it was a vivid portrait. It concerns work done in the Dry Valley lakes of Antarctica.
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I took a minor in chemistry when I got my undergrad in math. I probably should have done it the other way around, because I only retain enough of what I learned to appreciate how wicked cool these interpenetrating systems can be.

. . . and math is not much use at a seminary. Forgot to finish off my thought process.

Yeah, Friar, chemistry does go a lot farther than math these days.
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I hobby at this stuff. Too few people are good enough to get paid to do this stuff, and I wish that I was one of ‘em!

I do GIS as a first line of defence, but I have the great pleasure of being able to rub elbows with some of the lesser lights.
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When I retire, I’d love the opportunity to do something in geology or palaeo-anything!

Polymaths’R'Us

Friar:
Here’s a couple you might like:
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Ice Ages – Solving the Mystery, John Imbrie and Katherine Palmer Imbrie ISBN0-674-44075-7
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And this one, which is a very interesting read, but the author sound like she has a crush on Paul Hoffman, who is also a very cantankerous individual:
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Snowball Earth – The Story of a Maverick Scientist and his Theory of the Global Catastrophe that Spawned Life as We Know It, Gabrielle Walker ISBN 1-4000-5125-8

Many thanks, 53_3.

Friar:
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You suppose this is the internet tube’s equivalent of an ‘after the game’ conversation & drink?

Ok, I’m mentally blasted. That was a lot of work!
.
See ya!

Precisely. I think the reason we haven’t heard from SZ in a while is that he’s teaching himself oceanography. He should be finished in a minute. Can’t wait for the results.

Shoot, Friar (not you, of course!).
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In the course of my spob debate, I’ve dragged no less than 9 books out of my little library!

delaying exit
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After that, Friar, he has to master Paleoceanography and Paleoecology, so make that three minutes!

Guys, my point was that you guys dont know what the temps on planet earth are going to be in 50 years. But you’re willing to spend trillions to do stuff that might not even work. I may not be as up to speed as you guys on this geology thing, but my nose for crap is pretty good. Only a moron would deny that GHGs exert upward pressure on world temps. But, we don’t know what else may be exerting downward pressure. In any event, this isn’t a contest about who knows more about atmospheric science, it’s whether we should spend this money, allocate huge decisionmaking ability to federal gov’t etc. etc. My guess is that we will spend trillions and we’re basically going to be where we would have been and with people like you, smart that you are, saying whoops. I’m sure Hannibal was a smart guy too. But where did he lead Carthage. (Sg, am I allowed to criticize Hannibal, he almost certainly had a lot of African blood).

By the way, the Snowball Earth stuff is fascinating. 02 leading to the production of collagen. Would have been wild to watch all the melting ice once the positive feedback loop of ice exerting downward pressure on temps was broken.

53_3: No apologies necessary. Now I know who to turn to when I need the science hammer to be dropped.

“Only a moron would deny that GHGs exert upward pressure on world temps.”
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Keeping it civil here, too tired anyway, the point is that we can approximate what will happen. In 50 years, things will not be swamped, but give it 200 to 500 years, spob, and we are looking at another story.
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The Earth System models that me and Friar are talking about are the best single thing we have for being able to model the affects and actions we take in the future. Believe me, these models undergo improvement all the time, but I am not a pessimist, so I don’t favor just being a doubting Tom, stick my finger where the sun don’t shine, and point out the fallibles of what we are trying to do.
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The reason I attack you so relentlessly is that you have a bad habit of spouting talking points that really have nothing to do with reality. On that, spob, you should expect to get T-boned by me when you do it.
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And my point is that doing nothing is relentlessly, well, lets just not get into that.
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I’m not saying you should stop being a conservative, spob, but this relentlessly ignorant stuff has to be dumped. You know your science, and for that, I commend you, but science isn’t a hobby, spob. It has real purpose, and most of us would be dead without the advances made.

Cliff:
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He tried to whack me once when I was trying to demonstrate the absolute enormity of GOP waste in terms that were only fitting.
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Spob:
.
Check out this book:
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The Rise of Animals, M. A. Fedonkin, J. G. Gehling, K. Grey, G. M. Narbonne, P. Vickers-Rich, ISBN-10: 0-8018-8679-1

“…it’s whether we should spend this money, allocate huge decisionmaking ability to federal gov’t etc…”
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Yes, I think we can all figure out why you’re so willing to take crap shoot with the planet. If it requires a solution from government, better to just let it burn.
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Has it occurred to you that if we wait until we can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, it could be too late? Some very smart scientists think that it may be already. Anyway, fossil fuel replaced whale oil, perhaps it’s time we moved beyond the 19th Century.

spob:
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Yeah, I do think that what Hoffman had to say about the Snowball Earth scenario is intensly interesting, those other book gives a good rundown on the mechanics of ice ages, and some of the other stuff covered here.
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I’m pretty convinced that the stiffining that collagen offered might have been the key to exploiting some of the evolutionary advances by paleofauna before the Vendian. It’s pretty obvious that some fossil orgainisms found exhibit the basic aspects of segmentation, but little can be done with it unless the structures are stiff enough to actually take advantage of the motility and modularity offered. Horodyskia is one example of non-collagenic segmented life.

Sometimes, Swampland can be a fascinating place, huh, KT?

OK, you guys, take it outside.

53_3, in 200 years, none of this will matter.

Well, spob, in that case, why not at least try?
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Only governments are big enough entities to deal with such enormous problems. Either way, though, doing nothing is just plain pessimism.
.
And, even then, again, again what would you do with all that money saved by not doing anything?
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How much, after all, will it be worth in, say, 201 years…

I hate to rain on the parade, but when I die the universe ends.

My point is that we’ll likely innovate our way out of this problem . . . .

In 200 years we’ll be on Mars.

I can see it now, in Douglas Adam’s* new book:
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“Mostly Harmless”
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“Earths’ inhabitants in the spirit of thrift, died an agonizingly slow death by drowning. The former caretakers took the lambs’ way out, with one finger firmly up their arse, and the other, equally brown, having visited it’s conspecific in that rather unsavory location, guiding the eyes on a venture through the entries of a financial ledger showing that they at least left this mortal could in the black.”
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*Yes! He’s dead. Get over it.

“I hate to rain on the parade, but when I die the universe ends.”
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Well, you heard it here first spob. We’re all just a figment of sacredh’s imagination.
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Damn sacredh, what in hell did you drink to make you think us up, anyway?

“My point is that we’ll likely innovate our way out of this problem . . .”
.
Um, that’s what this is all about, spob. Did you expect solutions to worldwide problems to be handed to us on a platter for free?

I wouldn’t count on the Mars idea. It’s been a generation since we’ve even been to the moon. As for the idea of waiting, costs are only going to skyrocket and given our relative political instability…what if Obama fails to turn the economy around and the anti-science republicans get back in power for any length of time? Let’s not forget that the crazy wing of their party is anxiously looking forward to the Rapture. Why would they care about the planet since they assume they won’t even be here? It’ll just be us Godless heathens saying “I TOLD you the friggin’ world wasn’t going to end”.

“In 200 years we’ll be on Mars.”
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Only some of us, spob. I have a hunch that the ones left behind (almost 100% of ‘em) will certainly not see it your way.
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You really, really need to think all of this through. Self preservation is a mother…

I can assure you Douglas Adams never made those apostrophe usage errors.
.
Now seriously… knock it off or I’ll have Bubba the Bouncer deposit the lot of you in the alley.

I don’t get it. We are doing exactly what spob is saying. We’re innovating. Trying solutions. Picking out what will work from what won’t work.
.
So what’s spob really saying?

“In 200 years we’ll be on Mars.”
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Yes, because it will be far cheaper to move a few billion people to another planet than park our 8-mile-per-gallon pickup trucks and build our McMansions facing south.

53_3, not to get into a long discussion, but I look at two things:

1) Serious government intervention, which, as has been amply demonstrated by history is not a good thing and the spending of vast gobs of money coupled with the possibility, nay probability that we won’t reduce GHGs.

2) The horse manure problem that vanished once automobiles exploded on the scene.

Look, I recycle, I have fluorescent lights, and I take mass transit to and from work. But don’t trust government, and I am not going to start now because people say that there’s a “consensus”.

Does Bubba know Paleoceanography?

SZ
.
To answer your question from the other page I think you should go back and look at my premise. It didn’t have anything to do with non conformity. It had everything to do with that person doing something or saying something decidedly wrong to someone else in a group of people. And to succinctly answer your question put in the correct context, hell yes I advocate ass whuppings when people do that kind of dumb sh*t. I never claimed to be a proponent of non violence.

SZ, Barker was just some random white kid–guess that’s what qualifies as doing dumb things.

See SZ, sg disclaims his wannabe thug self. But we all know he’d be some dude’s Charmin in the joint.

And 53_3, with all the govt involvement that people advocate, I suspect we’ll get MiG-23s instead of F-15s and Kirov cruisers vs. AWS.

Point one, spob is balanced by a large number of examples where governments have improved the welfare of it’s people.
.
Of course, if we don’t use Earth System models to model ideas to filter the good from the bad, how the hedubblehockysticks do you suppose they will figger it out?
.
By reading tea leaves? Calling the neighborhood psychic? Praying to God*?
.
*I’m one of those that believes that God only helps those that help themselves, with the exception of the infirm.

I give up (sigh).
.
Tea leaves it is, then…

53_3, government is good in small doses. Where it has too much power, well, that’s a problem. See, e.g., USSR.

To me it’s a choice between having an F-15 or a MiG-23 or USS Port Royal vs a Kirov class cruiser. No contest.

My “solution” may not work. I believe that given the inherent limitation of government and the fact that we have a lot of other CO2 polluters in the world, your solution has zero chance of working and will actually make things worse.

53_3: Ursula K. LeGuinn wrote a book called “The Lathe of Heaven” about a man who survived a nuclear war and as he was dying he dreamed of a universe where the war had never happened. The dream became reality. I was either remembering that or else it was 2 Soma’s, a Vicodin ES and a mudslide. I sprained my back last night moving a jacuzzi. I dreamed my universe was mostly filled with social liberals. Is this heaven?

Well, spob, to be back on track, it’s T-bone time again. We can’t compensate for your fears.
.
I’ll take my leave. Bubba, as I just found out, worked in the field for some of the paleontolgists doing K/T extinction work and has a degree in paleobotany.
.
He’ll be a lot more interesting to talk to than some of these right wing hardheads…

SG:
.
As a fellow non-non-violence proponent, non-violence isn’t the issue.
.
I don’t have any problem at all with justifiable violence.
.
But, in my culture, even when someone does –and especially when someone says– something “decidedly wrong”, it’s considered the depth of cowardly and dishonorable behavior for a group to inflict physical punishment on an individual. It’s not a fair fight. There is no such thing as a good “beat down”, because the very act of a group taking advantage of numbers to hold down, or administer multiple kicks, or generally strike an individual completely removes whatever moral authority they possessed in the first place.
.
I don’t presume to speak for your culture, but in mine, that’s always revolting and despicable. No individual can insult another individual so badly that an entire group can beat the speaker into submission. That concept is disgusting to people who grew up like I did.
.
You must belong to a different culture to have the idea that group-on-one violence is some sort of good thing to do in some circumstances.

sacredh:
.
If it was, then why is spob here? Must there always be a serpent?
.
I really don’t want to cast any aspirations on squamata, however…

Last shot at spob:
.
As far as both examples of problem governments and problem ideolgies, you happen to be trying to sell something that has already been proven an abject failure.
.
And don’t let’s pretend the last eight years didn’t happen spob!

53_3: spob’s here because I had chili too.

sacredh:
.
Damn. One word, sacredh:
.
Zantac.
.
That all you needed to remember, but what did you do? You went and forgot. Swift one, sacredh. This is the last time I ever show up in one of you uvinerses, er, universes!
.
Damn. Some people…

53_3: Don’t be so hasty. Anna Nicole Smith lives in my universe too. Not the maggot ridden corpse with the needle tracks, the hot living one with amazing anatomical features. She doesn’t know the meaning of the word “no” either. Actually, the living one didn’t know the meaning of many words either.

Okay, okay, okay! All right, I’ll stay, but only because of that!
.
I’m dead though, mostly. Can you send someone to dig me up tomorrow?
.
It would be much appreciated…

Bubba knows only whup-ass.
.
Go ahead. See for yourself. Make Bubba’s day.