Doubleplusgood Bush

I know I am late on this, but every American should take note of the incredible ne0-Orwellian, near-totalitarian powers that President Bush’s Justice Department granted the White House in the days after September 11, according to new memos that were released Monday. They are certainly not based on a “conservative” limited government reading of the constitution. They are, by almost every account, of doubtful constitutional merit. And if we wish to continue to teach our children that freedom and liberty are the bedrock of the American form of government, we should as citizens take care to make sure they do not become a precedent for future Presidents to use in responding to attacks on the homeland. This summary comes for the New York Times account of the recently released documents:

The use of the military envisioned in the [John C.] Yoo-[Robert J.] Delahunty [memorandum] appears to transcend by far the stationing of troops to keep watch at streets and airports, a familiar sight in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks. The memorandum discussed the use of military forces to carry out “raids on terrorist cells” and even seize property.

“The law has recognized that force (including deadly force) may be legitimately used in self-defense,” Mr. Yoo and Mr. Delahunty wrote to Mr. [Alberto] Gonzales. Therefore any objections based on the Fourth Amendment’s ban on unreasonable searches are swept away, they said, since any possible privacy offense resulting from such a search is a lesser matter than any injury from deadly force. The Oct. 23 memorandum also said that “First Amendment speech and press rights may also be subordinated to the overriding need to wage war successfully.” It added that “the current campaign against terrorism may require even broader exercises of federal power domestically.”

Mr. Yoo and Mr. Delahunty said that in addition, the Posse Comitatus Act, which generally bars the military from domestic law enforcement operations, would pose no obstacle to the use of troops in a domestic fight against terrorism suspects. They reasoned that the troops would be acting in a national security function, not as law enforcers. In another of the opinions, Mr. Yoo argued in a memorandum dated Sept. 25, 2001, that judicial precedents approving deadly force in self-defense could be extended to allow for eavesdropping without warrants.

Still another memo, issued in March 2002, suggested that Congress lacked any power to limit a president’s authority to transfer detainees to other countries, a practice known as rendition that was widely used by Mr. Bush. Other memorandums said Congress had no right to intervene in the president’s determination of the treatment of detainees, a proposition that has since been invalidated by the Supreme Court.

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  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Scherer
    .
    Don’t forget that it was revealed yesterday also that 92 tapes of harsh interrogations torture were destroyed by the CIA. I wonder if anybody still believes that we shouldn’t have an investigation. That is other than the people who were committing the crimes against the constitution.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    I know I am late on this,
    -
    That’s cool, I’ve been reading Glenn Greenwald and Marcy Wheeler instead of the MSM for the last 5 or so years, so I pretty much know what’s up. Thanks for the link, though.

  • queencersei

    Once again, the only real way to deter future administrations from this type of behavior is to prosecute wrongdoers. Simply shaking your head, saying that sure was illegal, but actually going nothing to punish any criminal activity just encourages people down the road to try and get away with even more wrongdoing.

  • gysgt213

    What if you lived in a dictatorship and were to intellecutally lazy to realize it?
    .
    We may not have realized it at the time, but in the period from late 2001-January 19, 2009, this country was a dictatorship. The constitutional rights we learned about in high school civics were suspended. That was thanks to secret memos crafted deep inside the Justice Department that effectively trashed the Constitution. What we know now is likely the least of it.
    .
    http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/?source=rss

  • Joe Bftsplk

    String ‘em up!

  • bitterpill8

    You’re a bit late: Glenn Greenwald, Marcy Wheeler and lots of others have been all over this topic during the Bush second term. The issue is not that bad things happened; its that we lack the courage to live up to our own set of values.

    The powerful are not going to be held to account. The little guy selling drugs will be.

  • mccainfluffer

    Shorter Bush: Constitution? We don’t need no stinkin’ constitution!

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    I do believe it was OLC, not the Justice department that issued these memos, at Addington’s direction.

  • Cliff

    So what do you say, Scherer? Are you for investigations or not?

  • Art Pepper

    Thanks for this post, Michael.
    .
    Now entirely without snark I ask: Next time will the MSM look down their noses at the “civil rights scolds” who were talking about this in the first place?

  • stuartzechman

    Holy sh*t.
    .
    Have any “liberal legal scolds” warned about the possibility of the Executive operating in a manner consistent with the opinions contained in these memos, Michael Scherer?
    .

    …those who have spent the last several years pointing out how unprecedentedly extremist and radical was our political leadership (and how meek and complicit were our other key institutions) were invariably dismissed as shrill hysterics. As but one of countless highly illustrative examples, here is a November, 2004 David Broder column scoffing at the notion that there was anything radical or unusual taking place in the U.S., dismissively deriding the claim that there was anything resembling an erosion of basic checks and safeguards in the United States:
    .

    Bush won, but he will have to work within the system for whatever he gets. Checks and balances are still there. The nation does not face “another dark age,” unless you consider politics with all its tradeoffs and bargaining a black art.

    .
    That was (and still is) the prevailing attitude among our political and media elites: it was those who were sounding alarm bells about the radicalism and damage of the Bush administration — not Bush officials themselves — who were the real radicals and, worst of all, were deeply Unserious.

  • slaneyblack

    Nice post Scherer, but WHERE THE F*&^ WERE YOU AND YOUR M$M BUDDIES when this was going on????

  • http://policingwingnutwelfare.blogspot.com/ JJ

    I was interested to see that Orwell was very cagily mentioned in this Sam Tanenhaus talk (he leaves no fingerprints, but I think it’s implied). He’s the first conservative to broach the subject. Of course, liberals were there first.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    I was wrong. DOJ.

  • Deggjr

    This is an important post Mr. Scherer. You may be behind Glenn Greenwald and others, but you’re far ahead of most of your colleagues. My local paper printed this story on an inside page. The headline is: ‘Secret Bush anti-terror memos aired’. The story states ‘The Bush administration eventually abondoned many of the legal conclusions …’ without providing the date of January 15, 2009 (date from Glenn Greenwald).
    .
    One of the front page stories in the local paper is McCain criticizing the Stimulus Package, as if McCain’s reflexsive criticism is front page news. This post is a welcome alternative.
    .
    Sure, the MSM was failed to cover the story as it happened, but where was Congress, the peoples’ representatives?

  • spob

    How would we have fought the Civil War?

    And what of Nazi spies, could we have used the military against them?

  • palininatowel

    There is a rich irony in the fact that the denizens of FreeRepublic and other conservative blogs are throwing sh** fits about Obama publishing these previous secret memos.
    .
    The complaint at the right wing blogs? Obama is a traitor who is siding with the terrorists and is plotting a totalitarian police state!
    .
    Friggin’ hilarious considering the powers these insane memos gave Bush and the even more sociopathic Dick Cheney.
    .
    Apparently, these jacka**es on the right can’t see themselves in mirrors…

  • http://policingwingnutwelfare.blogspot.com/ JJ

    And it’s become hackneyed to allude to one of these things, but this is the ultimate parallel to Orwell over the past 8 years:

    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/149156.php

    http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2006/12/18/suskind_empiricism.html#comment31226

  • egilsson1

    Gee, welcome to 2004. When everyone already knows it, now he’s hopping on the “Liberal Legal Scold” bandwagon.

    How about saying you are sorry to Greenwald? At some point folks like you who are wrong or blind need to recognize that you’ve been wrong or blind, and that others have been right. The ones who have been right deserve credit, and they also deserve to have what they are saying now treated, as Greenwald would say, Seriously.

    But get back to us after you have slobbered over Halperin first.

    Good news for McCain, right Scherer?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I’m waiting for Joe Klein to weigh in on how much we were overreacting when we took note that the NSA scandal represented a abrogation of the Constitution.
    .
    I recall a significant amount of “centrist’ thinking going on that suggested that Yoo and Addington must be at least half right if its folks like Glenn Greenwald and the ACLU who are complaining!

  • Cliff

    How would we have fought the Civil War?
    And what of Nazi spies, could we have used the military against them?
    .
    Always good to see members of our armed forces pushing to uphold the Constitution.

  • palininatowel

    Another case of the media asleep at the switch, just as in the run-up to the Iraq war.
    .
    There were warning voices out there, but they were either ignored or relegated to page 15 of The New York Times or never mentioned in publications like Time.

  • spob

    Well, Cliff, perhaps you could answer my question–how did we fight the Civil War? And could we have used the military against Nazi saboteurs?

  • stuartzechman

    Cliff, do you want to take this one?
    .
    -how did we fight the Civil War? And could we have used the military against Nazi saboteurs?

  • sqr1

    Please, spare us the b.s.
    .
    There’s a Democratic President. And it is time for Republicans to dust off their copies of Burke and act the part of Defenders of the Constitution and Limited Government. Boy, I never saw this coming.
    .
    Don’t get me wrong. Obama should not continue to pursue the extra-Constitutional powers sought by Cheney, Addington, and Yoo. And the recent representations made by the Obama DOJ to the 9th Circuit regarding State Secrets are an embarrassment to the country and a slap in the face to the civil liberties defenders who supported and voted for Obama.
    .
    But Scherer would have us believe that not until this recent memo dump did he realize what the Bush-Cheney administration was asserting. Only now can he come forward. We must not permit the terrible precedents to be set if the media does not immediately hold Obama to account!
    .
    Republicans sure are silly.

  • stuartzechman

    A commenter at Greenwald’s blog mentions something relevant:

    And especially to the right wingers who claimed that “Protecting the 2nd Amendment would rein in government”. No, they did they exact opposite. The extremists that “single issue” voters delighted in electing to office took away the very rights that they insisted their guns protected. They were wrong, and they need to take some personal responsibility for their mistakes…
    .
    – Baron Dave Romm Tuesday, March 3, 2009 07:37 AM PST

    .
    How members of the NRA can look at themselves in the mirror after carrying water for these Bill-of-Rights-deniers –instead of finding common cause with liberals like Markos Moulitsas, Howard Dean and me– is beyond understanding.

  • Cliff

    Civil War – with hundreds of thousands of soldiers using muzzle-loading rifles, cannon, ships, and rail.
    .
    Nazi spies – I suppose they could have, if they wanted to be dumb about it. But then again I’m no expert on Nazi saboteurs.

  • Cliff

    SZ – if you’ve got something more substantive than that (not hard to do) then by all means go ahead.

  • Friar Tuck

    And could we have used the military against Nazi saboteurs?
    .
    J. Edgar Hoover got there first, spob. And did a pretty ham-fisted job of it, too. But we did manage to win that one, somehow.
    .
    For more info, read the old but still excellent Bodyguard of Lies by Anthony Cave Brown.

  • spob

    The point, of course, guys, is that we used the military right here at home to prosecute a war. If you buy into the fact that al-Qaeda is our “enemy” and that military force can be brought to bear against our enemies, then how is doing so shredding the Constitution? I think it beyond dispute that the military could have been used against Nazi saboteurs, so why not vs. al-Qaeda? What about Hezbollah sleeper cells?

    Just askin’.

  • ames1008

    Speaking of Nazis and WWII:

    MSM on Civil Rights during Wartime, 2004:

    “Only shrill, far-left whackos worry about quaint niceties like free speech, the Geneva Convention, and the rule of law in Wartime. After all, it’s us or them!”

    MSM on Civil Rights during Wartime, 1946:

    “Do you remember that while London was being bombed in the daylight the House devoted two days to discussing conditions under which enemy aliens were detained on the Isle of Man? Though Britain fell, there were to be no concentration camps here.

    “Do you remember that two days after Italy declared war an Italian citizen, convicted of murder in the lower courts, appealed successfully to the highest court in the land, and the original verdict was set aside? There was still law in the land, regardless of race, nationality or hatred. Representative government, equality before the law survived.”

    Edward R. Murrow on the BBC, February 1946.

  • pmorlan1

    Mr. Sherer, Yes you are late on this, but now that you are finally on board, I hope we will see you advocating investigations and prosecutions for Bush administration crimes because you’re late on that too.

  • koabd

    “The point, of course, guys, is that we used the military right here at home to prosecute a war.”
    .
    Uhm, the American Revolution, War of 1812 and American Civl War all used the military “at home” to “prosecute a war” because the battlefield was US soil. Those conflicts in which actual armies were under arms against one another — not an open-ended “war” against a tactic.
    .
    “I think it beyond dispute that the military could have been used against Nazi saboteurs, so why not vs. al-Qaeda?”
    .
    I believe the spy-hunters in the United States during World War II were FBI agents — not exactly the military. If you’re referring to military personnel defending ports, their encampments or prison camps, those are defensive actions and not actual LAW ENFORCEMENT. And I find it interesting that conservatives always need to go to the extreme of Nazis when referring to Al Qaeda — one was an organized political movement that took control of a country and its formidable military, the other a terrorist organization run out of caves and never actually in control of any army or nation.

  • Cliff

    If you buy into the fact that al-Qaeda is our “enemy” and that military force can be brought to bear against our enemies, then how is doing so shredding the Constitution?
    .
    This argument is so distorted that it’s hard to wrap my head around it.
    .
    My understanding is that the US military is Constitutionally barred against being used against US citizenry. The Civil War doesn’t count, because the South declared that it was no longer a part of the US.
    That’s why we have police forces – to maintain the rule of law within our borders.
    .
    What Bush did was abduct US citizens and hold them without trial or due process of law – severely unconstitutional. He also violated our privacy without due process of law – also unconstitutional. He held that the Executive Branch could not be restrained by the Legislative or Judicial branches – insanely unconstitutional.
    .
    So again, it’s always a pleasure to see the military betray its oath to the Constitution.

  • spob

    You know, Cliff, you’re talking out of your ass.

    First of all, you recite “your understanding”. Well, all of the Confederate soldiers retained their US citizenship. So, apparently, the US military was not constitutionally barred from being used against US citizenry. And did the South’s declaration really have any legal force–they didn;t really have the legal right to declare themselves independent. Besides, the military takes an oath to defend our nation against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Confederate soldiers (US citizens) were held without trial (in pretty nasty conditions). I guess that violated the Constitution.

    Second of all, I presume that when you talk about the violation of our privacy you are talking about the listening in on conversations where one party is without the US. Well, guess what, Bush won the legal battle on that one recently, but more to the point, a sovereign gets to check things that cross the border. These communications crossed the border. Now you may not like that, but it flows from Katz and rules governing border searches.

    As for the comparison to Nazis, well, you guys would agree that our military IS fighting terrorist groups. So why does the use of military force, which is acceptable overseas become not acceptable within our borders? How do you distinguish between the ability to emply military force against the Nazis here and abroad and only the ability to use military force against al-Qaeda overseas? Is US soil kind of an “ally ally in come free”, where al-Qaeda can operate with zero threat from the US military? Surely that can’t be right.

    And the people that keep pointing out that the FBI tracked down the Nazi spies–uh so what? The question is whether the military could have done it, not what actually happened. So kaobd, does the fact that US soil was not a “battlefield” (whatever the hell that is) mean that the US military could not have tracked down Nazi saboteurs? And kaobd, think about the defense/offense distinction–does that make any sense in the real world.

    I get that there’s the possibility for abuse. But the reality is that al-Qaeda in Afghanistan was a military force–so we could use military force against them incountry, but not here, if they happened to show up?

    Guys, this is a lot trickier question than meets the eye. Too bad that the MSM doesn’t seem to get that.

    Just once would I like to see someone from the MSM ask the obvious question–what about the mass detention of US citizens in the Civil War (i.e., Confederate POWs)–why was that constitutional then, but not now–the relevant provisions of the Constitution HAVE NOT changed.

    You know, I know a lot of you people in here think I am a moron. I don’t really care if you do, but I pack a pretty good rhetorical wallop. Misunderestimate me at your peril.

  • stuartzechman

    How would we have fought the Civil War?
    .
    Well, obviously Lincoln would have secretly had his legal team craft a series of secret memoranda justifying his secret creation of new secret laws (and overturning those old, public laws passed by Congress), at which point he would have enacted publicly illegal yet secretly legal programs –in total secrecy.
    .
    That’s how we would have secretly fought and won the Civil War without anybody –especially our enemies– knowing about it.

  • spob

    SZ, are you really that stupid?

  • spob

    Mr. Scherer, perhaps you’d care to join in? Am I “neo-Orwellian”?

  • egilsson1

    If al qaeda parachuted in storm troopers and seized a building while shooting everyone up, nervous bedwetters like Cliff needn’t worry.

    Just like when gunmen shot up a bank or whatever (remember those 2 guys in CA who wore body armor and walked down the street shooting assault rifles?), police and relevant agencies can react, legally, to an immediate threat.

    What these memos address is something far more insidious. Bush had the right to point his finger at you, in secret, and have you whisked off to a cage for years of abuse without any due process at all. No right to a lawyer, no right to court to claim that you were the wrong guy, no contact with family, nothing. They did this Americans (Padilla), to legal residents (al marri), to simple goat farmers, and to actual terrorists. They turned our national security apparatus inward, on to Americans.

    Rebellion is something very different, and if you are actually interested, then read American History 101, because you clearly need remedial help.

  • spob

    Palininatowel–hard to take you seriously with that moniker.

    Cheney is not a sociopath. Is that what passes for intelligent discourse around here. Small wonder Obama won the election.

  • spob

    First of all, egilsson, the rebellion point was to deal with fact that people said that we categorically could not use the military against citizenry here. Uh, wrong. Second of all, I am not just talking about rebellion, I am talking about military action carried out by small groups of people. How do you distinguish between the military being allowed to go after the Nazi saboteurs, which it clearly could, and al Qaeda emissaries? The citizenship status really doesn’t matter here, as a combatant vs. the US could be a US citizen. Some of the Nazi saboteurs were. And I am not sure the fact that Nazi Germany was a country matters either–we are prosecuting armed military action vs. al-Qaeda, are we not.

    Like I said, these issues are hard, very hard. You know, BushMcChimpHalliburtonHitler is no longer president. You can actually think now.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Besides, the military takes an oath to defend our nation against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
    .
    No, the military takes an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
    .
    http://www.history.army.mil/faq/oaths.htm
    .
    Not surprising that you would get that little detail wrong.

  • spob

    Oh Paul, youre right, but it doesn’t matter. The point is not, of course, whether the military takes the oath to defend the constitution or the nation, but that the military can fight domestic enemies. Moreoever, I didn’t quote it, and I think defending the Constitution and the nation are pretty close, wouldn’t you say?

    Take a look at the Soldier’s Code and swap country for nation. American soldiers defend the country–period.

    So, can any of you turkeys take me on? Huh? Is this all you have? Come on. Liberals are supposed to be oh-so-smart.

  • egilsson1

    Sorry Cliff, I meant that spob was the nervous bedwetter, not you.

    Spob believes his ignorance justifies extra-constitutional police state action apparently. Why do you conservatives profess to love something you trash every chance possible? So much for that “strict constructionism” stuff huh?

  • egilsson1

    America’s security agencies, whether it’s the local police, the FBI, the Secret Service, the ATF, whatever, routinely follow the law and break up violent conspiracies. And a violent conspiracy that is occurring and represents an immediate threat can certainly be met with force, and they obviously have been in the past.

    Do you actually not understand how this happens?

    You aren’t nearly as smart or challenging as you seem to think you are. The Constitution works, you should have faith in it.

  • Cliff

    If al qaeda parachuted in storm troopers and seized a building while shooting everyone up, nervous bedwetters like Cliff needn’t worry.
    .
    Uh, do you mean spob, egilsson? Because I’m actually the one who said the police are meant to maintain order inside the US.
    .
    And did the South’s declaration really have any legal force–they didn;t really have the legal right to declare themselves independent.
    .
    That’s kind of what the whole war was about – whether or not they did have the legal right. The Union won, so the Confederacy was deprived of the legal right.
    .
    but more to the point, a sovereign gets to check things that cross the border. These communications crossed the border. Now you may not like that, but it flows from Katz and rules governing border searches.
    .
    Bush wasn’t a sovereign. And we already had a system set up to monitor communications, the issue is that Bush didn’t use that system, and so avoided all accountability.
    .
    So why does the use of military force, which is acceptable overseas become not acceptable within our borders?
    .
    Because it is unacceptable to use it against US citizens. Go read the Founding Fathers’ warnings on a standing army.
    .
    I don’t really care if you do, but I pack a pretty good rhetorical wallop. Misunderestimate me at your peril.
    .
    Ha!

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I didn’t quote it, and I think defending the Constitution and the nation are pretty close, wouldn’t you say?
    .
    So when Sherman was marching from Atlanta to the sea was he defending the Constitution or the Country? The Constitution includes a significant amount of text outlining the various duties of the government branches in times of war. The Yoo memo’s under discussion asserted that those limits didn’t apply. They abrogated Bush’s both the Posse Comitatus Act and FISA. They have been determined by people smarter than you to be contra the US Constitution. (That would be the thing your supposed to defend.)

  • spob

    Cliff, egilsson, the point is not whether our police can do this. They can. It’s whether the military can.

    It is indisputable that during the Civil War, the US held American citizens without trial and that the American military conducted armed action against enemy soldiers who were Americans and against civilians too. That means that there is no per se bar to (a) holding Americans without trial in the military context or (b) using the US military to prosecute a war here at home against US citizens, notwithstanding the warnings about a standing army.

    Second of all, the Civil War didn’t change the law, so if something was not legally possible before, then it wasn’t legally possible after. But who cares, the Confederates were american citizens.

    Bush wasn’t a sovereign. Ok. So what?

  • stuartzechman

    The point is not, of course, whether the military takes the oath to defend the constitution or the nation, but that the military can fight domestic enemies…
    .
    …of the Constitution.

  • spob

    Both, paul. Military Ops aren’t that granular.

    I’m done here. Bottom line is that the President is the CIC of armed forces. There is zero doubt that he could use the military to deal with a Nazi saboteur situation. When you guys can readily distinguish military action against the Nazis (which apparently could be done worldwide) and military action against al-Qaeda, which apparently can only be done outside the US, come talk to me. These questions aren’t easy, and I agree that there is the possibility for abuse. But your responses are silly.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    http://balkin.blogspot.com/2009/03/end-of-yoo-doctrine.html

    These two disowned claims lie at the heart of the Cheney/Addington/Yoo theory of presidential power– namely, that when the president acts as commander in chief Congress may not restrict in any way his military decisionmaking, including decisions about detention, interrogation, and surveillance. The President, because he is President, may do whatever he thinks is necessary, even in the domestic context, if he acts for military and national security reasons in his capacity as Commander in Chief. This theory of presidential power argues, in essence, that when the President acts in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief, he may make his own rules and cannot be bound by Congressional laws to the contrary. This is a theory of presidential dictatorship.

    These views are outrageous and inconsistent with basic principles of the Constitution as well as with two centuries of legal precedents. Yet they were the basic assumptions of key players in the Bush Administration in the days following 9/11.

  • spob

    Oh god, SZ, are you really arguing that the military’s duties are coextensive with the oath? Are you really that stupid?

  • spob

    These views are outrageous and inconsistent with the Constitution. Says who?

  • alaskanturkey

    here’s to the laws of Alberto Gonzalez,
    congress will pass an act in the panic of the day,
    and the Constitution’s drowning in an ocean of decay,
    and freedom of speech is dangerous i’ve even heard them say,
    .
    here’s to the land you tore out the heart of,
    Gonzalez find yourself another country to be part of
    .
    here’s to the businessmen of George W,
    who’ll want to change the focus from Halliburton to Enron
    and their profits like blood money spilled out on the white house lawn,
    to keep their hold on power they’re using terror as a con,
    while the bombs they fall on children dont know which side…dont care which side that they’re on
    .
    here’s to the land you tore out the heart of,
    George W find yourself another country to be part of
    .
    here’s to the land youve torn out the heart of,
    George W find yourself another country to be part of

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Says the current DOJ of the United States Of America via the Office of Legal Council.
    .
    The heart of the issue isn’t what operations the military can carry out. The heart of the issue is what the President can order sans Congressional approval.
    .
    Again, your disdain for the actual Constitutional foundation of our nation is rather troubling.

  • egilsson1

    Here’s the Constitution on this commander in chief stuff:

    “The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States….” Article 2, Section 2.

    That’s it. Where, O-Strict-Constructionist, does this give the President authority to suspend ALL OTHER PROVISIONS of the Constitution?

    This provision was only intended to ensure civilian control, because the Founders actually feared too much military authority, which would weaken the institutions they wanted to create.

    The right wing is loaded with modern day authoritarians (or ignoramuses) who do not actually care about the Constitution at all, but instead want to pervert it to accomplish what it sought to prevent.

    In fact, the Constitution makes clear that CONGRESS is the branch responsible for declaring war, not the Executive branch. How these lessons have been lost…

  • Cliff

    Greenwald laysit out better than I can:

    This is factually true, with no hyperbole: Over the last eight years, we had a system in place where we pretended that our “laws” were the things enacted out in the open by our Congress and that were set forth by the Constitution. The reality, though, was that our Government secretly vested itself with the power to ignore those public laws, to declare them invalid, and instead, create a whole regimen of secret laws that vested tyrannical, monarchical power in the President. Nobody knew what those secret laws were because even Congress, despite a few lame and meek requests, was denied access to them. What kind of country lives under secret laws?

    .
    And your Civil War argument is stupid – Confederate troops were part of a legal body that had declared war on the United States. There is a vast gap between that and possible Al Qaeda operatives in the population.
    .
    And saying “possible” gives it too much credence – we are never allowed to see the evidence that they are terrorists.

  • stuartzechman

    I love it when I get called “stupid”.

  • foggg

    United States Constitution, Article 4, Section 4, Clause 2
    permits the federal authority inside the US to respond “…against Invasion; and, on Application of the Legislature (or of the Executive when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.” aka insurrection/rebellion

    The military fought the insurrection of 1860-1865 with the approval of the Legislature. Not pursuiant to some secret, undebated and undebatable Presidential Edict.
    The FBI fought Nazi spies and saboteurs inside the US with the approval of the Legislature (Smith Act in 1940, etc).

    After all this bleating about “my oath to protecting the Constitution”, the wingnut has no idea what it says.
    Having interacted with reactionary military types, it’s not the Constitution – it’s their honorbound oath to protect it that motivates them. Should another aspect of their honor or moral code override the their pledge to protect whatever they imagine (or not) the Constitution says, so much worse for the Constitution.

  • jcapan

    You beat me to it SZ: “Have any ‘liberal legal scolds’ warned about the possibility of the Executive operating in a manner consistent with the opinions contained in these memos, Michael Scherer?’
    ~
    As well as your Brooks’/centrist riffs on another thread. I’m simply in the wrong time zone.
    ~
    I imagine MS as a German journalist after the allied victory, saying look at what those nasty Nazis did, his own lookaway (at best) or propaganda (at worst) role somehow written out of the record. But let Blagogate rear its head and he suddenly attends to his duty as intrepid gossip whore.

  • Deggjr

    “Oh Paul, youre right, but it doesn’t matter.”
    .
    Modern day ‘conservatism’ in a nutshell. The rest is just details.
    .
    The details include the clip of Rush Limbaugh quoting the Declaration of Independence and identifying it as part of the Constitution. His audience didn’t recognize the difference (of course).
    .
    Hey spob, when you can identify the difference between Nazis, who had a military of seven million and an industry to arm them, and American citizens, come back.

  • jcapan

    Said liberal legal scold today:
    ~
    UPDATE II: It’s somewhat surreal to witness — now that George Bush is out of office — the avalanche of establishment media reports suddenly acknowledging today, rather explicitly, how radical and lawless his presidency was, as though we only learned of that this week with the release of these memos. As the commenters to Michael Scherer’s Time post point out, there were people who have spent the last several years documenting that and trying to sound the alarm over it, yet were largely dismissed as shrill unSerious partisan “leftists” and “civil liberties extremists.” I suppose it’s acceptable to observe these facts now that Bush is no longer the President (this happened in the “past”) and the evidence for all of it is rubbed so unavoidably in our faces that denial is no longer possible.

  • Deggjr

    Ah, never post from memory. That’s 5.5M military war DEATHS, not a total military of 7M.
    .
    Why are Nazis and Al-Queda ever mentioned in the same sentence? For contrast?

  • http://www.drasties.com/?p=6224 Drasties – Dutch on the World – World on the Dutch

    [...] was, as though we only learned of that this week with the release of these memos.  As the commenters to Michael Scherer’s Time post point out, there were people who have spent the last several years documenting that and trying to sound the [...]

  • yutsano

    Why are Nazis and Al-Queda ever mentioned in the same sentence? For contrast?
    -
    Because, at some point, Godwin’s Law must take effect. Especially when debating with wingnuts.

  • rojax

    Way to go TIME magazine– and only seven years after the fact… outstanding! And after the administration has left office as well– oh perfect! Good to know the MSM is up on the ramparts protecting our delicate democracy from tyranny. Yes indeed, a golden moment in the history of American journalism. Katy bar the door! Bush and co. were up to Orwellian hi jinx? You don’t say! What’s next– Kennedy was a womanizer?

    Swampland is an appropriate title– that’s about where mainstream journalism is in America today. You’ve failed us deeply and you should be ashamed. And as for Michael Scherer– you couldn’t hold Glenn Greewald’s jockstrap.

  • spob

    Oh good grief. You people really are f’in morons. First of all, there are a lot of different issues here. I’ll spoonfeed it to you.

    1) No one is saying that the Nazis and al-Qaeda are the same. What I am saying is that Nazi saboteurs and al-Qaeda sleeper cells are similar. It is without question that the military could have taken the lead in going after the Nazi saboteurs. Why then is there a problem with the military going after al-Qaeda? Posse Comitatus probably doesn’t apply, and the AUMF probably gets the job done. (This is not even getting into the constitutional issues that would allow the Prez to defend America.) Remember, guys, our military is fighting al-Qaeda. Do they get an “ally ally in come free” from military intervention if they come to America? And if they do, why didn’t the Nazi saboteurs have that right?

    2) The Civil War. The US military captured US citizens and held them without trial. Whether the states’ secession was de jure or de facto, these were US citizens. Plus, on top of that, some of the Nazi saboteurs were US citizens. The military could have dealt with them too. So?

    3) The constitution/nation–not germane, since the military can defend against domestic threats. You just show your ignorance seizing on that immaterial inaccuracy.

    Second of all, let’s not forget that all these horribles (grabbing people, wiretaps etc.) are going to be continued under Obama. Why? Because Obama knows that if something goes boom, game over for his agenda. I mean, really, surely you don’t think Obama is a principled guy, do you?

    The ignorance on display in here is hilarious.

  • rojax

    Spob– Your Civil War example is perfect and totally applicable to our situation today. Thank you for setting us all straight. Your mind is like a diamond. Just amazing… really.

  • spob

    Rojax, are you really that stupid? The Civil War example simply shows that American troops can hold American citizens indefinitely without trial. The relevant constitutional provisions have not changed since then.

  • Cliff

    It is without question that the military could have taken the lead in going after the Nazi saboteurs.
    .
    But why would they bother? Especially when they were busy fighting the Nazi army at the time, why not leave it to an investigative organization that specializes in these issues? Your whole point makes no sense..
    .
    Why then is there a problem with the military going after al-Qaeda? Posse Comitatus probably doesn’t apply, and the AUMF probably gets the job done.
    .
    You seem to have this idea that Al Qaeda is walking around inside the United States with turbans and Korans and big black spherical bombs.
    .
    They’re not. Random innocent people have been getting abducted, sent to military holding camps, and denied their Constitutional rights.
    .
    President Bush argued that he was beyond any accountability, that no one could question or investigate his actions.
    .
    I don’t know how you can not see that this behavior is antithetical to everything America was supposed to stand for.
    .
    You are a moron, and the ignorance of you and people like you are the greatest danger our nation faces.

  • http://www.30fps.com rynato

    …and 20 years from now, Michael Scherer or his journalistic heirs will write that maybe back in 2009 we should have listened to those Dirty F’ing Hippies and investigated/indicted the Bush regime for their constitutional abuses and war crimes.

    Pardon me if I am not impressed, Michael. Maybe this time you should try to make a difference in the present instead of wrining your hands about the past.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Second of all, the Civil War didn’t change the law, so if something was not legally possible before, then it wasn’t legally possible after.
    .
    I suppose its too late to point out that this is also utterly wrong.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
    .
    The Act was a response to, and subsequent prohibition of, the military occupation by U.S. Army troops of the former Confederate States during the ten years of Reconstruction (1867–1877) following the American Civil War (1861–1865).

  • spob

    Paul, perhaps if you’d read, you’d understand there’s this thing called “context”. I wasn’t talking about military occupation, I was talking about the legal (as opposed to de facto) ability of the states to secede. Moreover, SFB, the Civil War itself didn’t change the law. Subsequent legislation did, you effing moron.

    Cliff, you really are an idiot, aren’t you? The topic at hand is whether the US military can deal with al-Qaeda cells in the US. One thing that’s clearly relevant to that question is whether the US military could deal with Nazi saboteurs here in the US during WWII, and the answer to that question is that they could have. There were guys on the beach where these turkeys landed–I guess if they had spotted them, they wouuld have had to call the cops–ok gotcha.

    Cliff, you also may want to check your history. When the saboteurs landed, the US really wasnt all that busy “fighting the Nazi army”.

    Nowhere in any of my posts have I said these issues were easy. I have said the exact opposite. But this idea that the Bush Administration was simply acting completely outside the bounds of propriety is nuts.

    Also, Cliff, the point is not what I think al-Qaeda is here, but rather what law can you point to that says that we can fight them with military force outside America but have to leave them alone (militarily at least) inside America.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    spob,
    Are you blithely unaware that all the people who have been busy disavowing the Yoo memo’s are Bush officials? Obama simply published the memos in question. All the backing away and pointing out their Unconstitutionality happened DURING the Bush administration.
    .
    You’re by yourself on this one.
    .
    Google “Jack Goldsmith”

  • spob

    of course, they are, because they are cowards. But let’s say that something does happen . . . . Wanna bet that Yoo becomes a hero.

    The constitutional authority of POTUS is a lot broader than you guys think it is. How much encroachment Congress can do is an open question–War Powers Act, FISA etc. have not been resolved by the courts (and no one really wants that, you know?). The other point is that these are hard issues–clearly, the US could deal with Nazi saboteurs militarily. How do you make a meaningful distinction between them and an al-Qaeda or Hezbollah sleeper cell? Saying that the Nazis were a threat from a nation with a national army really doesn’t get the job done, since we are currently fighting al-Qaeda militarily–so that raises the question of why the US border is dispositive of how we can fight them but is not dispositive of how we can fight Nazis.

  • Cliff

    Also, Cliff, the point is not what I think al-Qaeda is here, but rather what law can you point to that says that we can fight them with military force outside America but have to leave them alone (militarily at least) inside America.
    .
    And you call me the moron? People have been pointing out the laws that prevent that for two pages now, you f–kwit.
    .
    But this idea that the Bush Administration was simply acting completely outside the bounds of propriety is nuts.
    .
    Go read Greenwald. He clearly lays out the severe breaches of the Constitution that took place under Bush.
    .
    But I know you won’t, because you apparently cannot accept evidence that contradicts you. So go watch your war porn, scum.

  • foggg

    >that raises the question of why the US border is dispositive of how we can fight al-Qaeda but is not dispositive of how we can fight Nazis

    Frightening insight into the authoritarian mind.
    The borders of the US deliniate where US citizens, who are supposed to ultimately control the government uncoerced and unintimidated, live.
    During WWII, Roosevelt did not declare he had unlimited power to suspend the First and the Fourth amendments, to seize any citizen, disappear and torture them, nor employ military against them with no legislative oversight. Normal people understand that effectively as keys to a dictatorship-in-the-making.

    >of course, they [various DoJ Bush officials] are [busy disavowing the DoJ policies and the memos attempting to legally justify them], because they are cowards.

    LOL. What do they have to be afraid of? That any judge, indeed any lawyer, who is not a bush sycophant nor a closet authoritarian, will see thru the patently absurd legal rationales for all of it?

  • spob

    First of all, Cliff, you’re the moron. You’ve clearly gotten your ass kicked on the Civil War thing. American troops can hold American citizens who are combatants. Get that right. And moreover, no one here is seriously disputing that the Nazi saboteurs (some of whom were American citizens) couldn’t be treated as a military threat and dealt with by military means. Why aren’t al-Qaeda emissaries able to be treated like Nazi saboteurs? Certainly, al-Qaeda is a military threat to the US (after all, we are using military means against them), and so why can’t we deal with al-Qaeda guys in exactly the same manner if they are here in US?

    You see foggg, you have to answer why US borders are irrelevant with respect to the Nazi saboteurs but are relevant when it comes to al-Qaeda. And that’s a lot harder than it seems. Complaining about dictatorship etc. doesn’t really address the point. Now does it?

    You guys make a big deal about Congress’ ability to check the president. Fine. But remember that things like the War Powers Act may or may not be Constitutional, and ponder this, would a statute that set forth the rules of engagement in Afghanistan be constitutional? Would a statute that required the President to consult with Congress before using US troops to defend the US from attack be constitutional? These issues get really muddy, really quickly.

    And all you people who think that the courts should be involved in this. Ponder this scenario. In President Obama’s second term, a major terrorist attack occurs (say dirty bombs in NYC, Chicago, DC, LA and Boston). Obama then blames the courts for hamstringing his right to defend america. (Do you really think that Obama wouldn’t refrain from assigning blame to any plausible subject?) Where does that leave the rule of law in this country? The judiciary would instantly be done. I, for one, am not enthralled with the federal judiciary, but I want one that has power.

    I am far from a closet authoritarian.

    There is a lot more to all of this than meets the eye. And remember, not to point fingers at the “wall”, but remember, being overly legally cautious decreased the possibility of nipping 9/11 in the bud. And remember too, if we did have dirty bomb attacks in major US cities, you would be looking at a lot less civil liberty.

    You can call me names, think I’m an idiot–whatever you want. But reading Glenn Greenwald doesn’t make you enlightened on this issue.

  • spob

    “I know I am late on this, but every American should take note of the incredible ne0-Orwellian, near-totalitarian powers that President Bush’s Justice Department granted the White House in the days after September 11, according to new memos that were released Monday.”

    I forgot to comment on this quote from Scherer. “Near totalitarian?” Are you kidding? North Korea is totalitarian. Nothing Bush did or claimed to be able to do is anywhere close to “totalitarian”.

    Scherer, youre a moron too.

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