In the Arena

McCain and Kissinger on Afghanistan

John McCain and Henry Kissinger have weighed in on Afghanistan in the past 48 hours–and both have a good grasp of the problems we’re facing there, but their solutions diverge, at least in emphasis, and these nuanced disagreements illuminate the mind-boggling difficulties we’re facing in the Af/Pak region.

McCain’s speech at the American Enterprise Institute is far more detailed than Kissinger’s op-ed in the Washington Post today, and it shows a better understanding of the problems on the ground. For example, McCain understands that the Afghan national army has been a surprising success–an integrated multi-ethnic force that has performed reliably in battle against the Taliban. Not surprisingly, McCain is more bullish on nation-building than Kissinger, and–as he did in Iraq–places more emphasis on counterinsurgency operations (protecting the populace) rather than counterterrorism (chasing after the bad guys). Kissinger agrees with McCain on the potential efficacy of General Petraeus’s proposed counterinsurgency strategy–which already has had positive, pre-Petraeus success in some of the valleys patrolled by the U.S. military in eastern Afghanistan. But the fundamental difference between McCain’s nation-building and Kissinger’s more modest notion of preventing Afghanistan from being a terrorist haven is precisely where the rubber meets the road–and where the Obama policy team has to make a big decision. Kissinger is right that Afghanistan has never lent itself to coherent nationhood–a fact that McCain doesn’t mention–but then what? How do you prevent the terrorists from establishing havens if you don’t have a stable, effective Afghan nation-state?

Which is precisely the problem across the border in Pakistan, where the terrorist havens actually exist these days. Pakistan, it has been said, is an army in search of a country. That army has chosen to allow the terrorists to infest the northwest while focusing its attention on the Indian threat to the east. It seems to me that the problem with both the McCain and Kissinger speeches is that they have the situation precisely reversed: the stabilization of the Pakistani nation-state is far more important than anything happening across the border in Afghanistan. Get Pakistan right and you have a chance in Afghanistan. Get Pakistan wrong and you have no chance.

That’s why the most hopeful, and positive, development in McCain’s speech is his support for a major economic development package for Pakistan–presumably, the Kerry-Lugar legislation that will probably be the first major foreign aid bill to pass the Congress. The least hopeful aspect in McCain’s speech is that he has set himself up to be a hawk in the Afghanistan sideshow, favoring higher troop levels in a looming debate between the military and the Obama Administration that isn’t nearly as important as focusing now, intensely, on figuring out how much cooperation we can expect from the Pakistani military in the effort to deal with the terrorist infestations in northwestern Pakistan–and whether we can have any reasonable expectation that Pakistan, with its 100 nuclear weapons, can become a stable and reliable U.S. ally in the struggle against the jihadi extremists it now harbors.

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  • Friar Tuck

    Wonderful! The Serious People have spoken! Joke Line takes notes! We’re all so grateful. All we need now is the wrap-up from Auntie Broder.

  • FlownOver

    When Henry Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1973, the distinguished musical satirist Tom Lehrer decided that he could no longer perform. “It was at that moment that satire died,” says Lehrer, “There was nothing more to say after that.”

    What does Dr. Strangelove have in second place on his Afghan to-do list, after bombing the hospitals?

  • mccainfluffer

    How sad our establishment continues to listen to the opinions of Kissinger, the war criminal. (Remember, he has to check the laws of countries he travels to out of fear of arrest and extradition.) I also wonder what relationship his company, “Kissinger and Associates” has with the countries and business interests in the Pakistan, Afghanistan region? For example, when he talks about China, you won’t hear him acknowledge that the Chinese Government is one of his clients. But what does that matter? He is a “wise old man” whose opinions help drive conventional wisdom.

    As for McCain, he is more representative of the failed foreign policy of the last 8 years. His opinions are all over the place – depending on the politics of the moment. (See Joe’s recent post on Russia.)

  • centfan

    Joe, why do you assume that we can decide Pakistan’s fate for them? Short of “doing an Iraq”, marching in, killing leaders we don’t like, and fighting the backlash for thirty years, there isn’t much we’re going to guarantee about Pakistan’s future no matter what policy we choose. You say “tread carefully” of course, but any policy that has our military taking lead in any kind of visable action against Pakistan interests or has us obviously siding with India is only going to set the Pakistan populace against us.
    -
    Maybe we have to promote “Made in Pakistan” to make nice… or maybe we should get away from the Middle East and the oil industry there in and simply let sleeping dogs lie (or they get nuked).

  • stuartzechman

    Joe Klein:
    .
    Why is it that we only find you responding to discredited rightists’ foreign policy pronouncements?
    .
    Do you not know who Juan Cole is, for example?

  • formerlyjames

    I’m with centfan. What exactly is the limit of our interference in other countries? Infinity? I can’t imagine how anybody can read this blog post and not experience repeated mind flashes of the Viet Nam tragedy. How many years did we prop up corrupt, clueless leaders in the south? Only to forestall the inevitable after countless lives and unimaginable destruction. After finally prevailing in the long disaster, those evil communists then went into Cambodia where real genocide prevailed and kicked out the Khmer Rouge while we watched with our foreign affairs thumb in our ear.

  • plukasiak

    well, you know someone is full of it when they can’t tell the difference between “terrorists” and “the Taliban”.
    _
    here’s a clue. The reason that the Taliban did not turn over bin Laden was not because they thought that 9/11 was consistent with the Koran and Sharia law. It was because they wanted bin Laden tried under Sharia law (the Taliban was willing to turn bin Laden over to a council of Islamic clerics for trial), or at least have the US provide proof of bin Laden’s involvement in 9/11 consistent with the provisions of Sharia law. (Bush simply refused to provide any real evidence of bin Laden’s direct involvement.)
    _
    The simple fact is that authority in these areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan is harsh — and that acts of “terror” in enforcing authority are the norm. The Taliban is no more (or less) a “terrorist” group than the royal family of Saudi Arabia who preside over a justice system that includes torture, ‘secret trials’, and flogging, amputation of limbs, and beheadings as punishment for crimes.

  • oizydoizy

    I’m sorry to disagree with the prevailing sentiment here. Pakistan is not Iraq or Cambodia. Pakistan’s democracy is shaky, weak, and frequently in jail. Pakistan is run by a military with not-insubstantial ties to Islamic nihilists on one side and the keys to nuclear weapons and missiles on the other side. Pakistan has engaged in four wars since 1947, and nearly started another one after it demonstrated its nuclear capability.
     
    I understand that we can’t afford to march in there, and we’ll make even more enemies if we do, but Pakistan left to itself is shaping up to be a failed state. And this would be a failed state unlike any we’ve seen before.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “Kissinger is right that Afghanistan has never lent itself to coherent nationhood–a fact that McCain doesn’t mention–but then what? How do you prevent the terrorists from establishing havens if you don’t have a stable, effective Afghan nation-state?”

    Iraq just had wildly successful elections — with little international media coverage, never mind the price in blood and treasure paid to secure that basic right of modern human existence — and anything that comes close in Afghanistan or Pakistan or Iran et al will have to start there (i.e., fair and open elections, with the security it requires to not only hold the event but to implement the will of the people via their newly elected representatives).

    We take it for granted that we have these rights here, but they were attained and protected at huge costs that some nations are now just starting to grasp. And we too had outside support (and opposition), at the beginning of our democracy.

    If we’re truly a Global Village (and not just a global TMZ gutter) we deserve to offer our potential new allies the same sort of support we offered our old enemies after WW II.

    The people of the 3rd world are no less deserving of Western support and loyalty than any EU enclave — that hasn’t ever really lived up to the gifts they’ve been served by the American soldier and their supporters back home, despite the invocations of Albright and Holbrooke.

  • Cliff

    Hmmm. If I were Obama, I’d tell John McCain to shut the f–k up and get back in his box. (I can’t understand why you don’t do the same, Joe.)
    .
    Not sure I’d pay a lot of attention to Kissinger either.

  • formerlyjames

    hula, your reasoned post is a refreshing departure from the usual lists you post.
    .
    But, of course, I disagree. We are not truly a global village. And we did not kill, maime, bomb europe after WWII.

  • CP in FL

    Did hulagate just post something that didn’t contain all of the current Republican talking points and slander? He/She/It must have copied and pasted this from some sane person. If he/she/it keeps doing this, he/she/it might actually add something to the conversation instead of just taking up space and having people just skip over his/her/it’s nonsense.

  • plukasiak

    I understand that we can’t afford to march in there, and we’ll make even more enemies if we do, but Pakistan left to itself is shaping up to be a failed state.
    _
    uh, where do you get this “failed state” nonsense from?
    _
    A “failed state” is one that has no central authority — simply “losing democracy” has nothing to do with a “failed state.”
    _
    and btw, calling radical Islamists “nihilists” is just plain ignorant.

  • cougargal06

    I think it would actually be more beneficial to help the people struggling to survive in the third world countries. The Borgen Project (www.borgenproject.org) stats some interesting facts regarding global poverty and national security. If the U.S. and other Super-nations help those in need there are less people to be recruited by the Taliban. The Taliban goes into these countries and provide food and schools to the community, and if these people are doing things like that for them, then they can’t be all bad right? Helping the 963 million people that go to sleep hungry every night will benefit the world in the long run.

  • oizydoizy

    A “failed state” is one that has no central authority

    You mean like Pakistan? Where Swat is controlled by the Taliban and Punjab and Sindh are controlled by Zardari?

    and btw, calling radical Islamists “nihilists” is just plain ignorant

    The killing spree in Mumbai was nihilism. They made no demands, had no message. Lashkar-e-Taiba, based in Pakistan, sent the killers. “Islamic nihilists” fits.

  • stuartzechman

    …anything that comes close in Afghanistan or Pakistan or Iran et al will have to start there (i.e., fair and open elections, with the security it requires to not only hold the event but to implement the will of the people via their newly elected representatives).
    .
    If we’re truly a Global Village (and not just a global TMZ gutter) we deserve to offer our potential new allies the same sort of support we offered our old enemies after WW II.
    .
    The people of the 3rd world are no less deserving of Western support and loyalty than any EU enclave…

    .
    Question Hillary has actually reiterated Joe Klein’s sentiments on the “noble purpose” of our continued occupations quite well, fellow commenters.
    .
    Say what you will, but that distillation of Joe’s principles on the matter was quite cogent. Question Hillary should be writing articles in The New Republic, apparently.
    .
    Seriously, is there any real difference between what QH just put together, and say, any random column by Davids Brooks or Ignatius in WaPo or the Times over the past two years?
    .
    QH: You do realize that you and Joe (and Michael O’Hanlon) are in almost total agreement on this subject, right?

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090226/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/pentagon_war_dead

    Who elected John 4 MEDALS IN 5 MINUTES Kerry the conscience of the American people?

    Or Paul Rieckhoff?

    The PISS ON THE TROOPS PARTY never ceases to reach new lows of curiously morbid depravity, and self-serving BS.

    If U.S. troops were late term abortions, the libs would be screaming at the tops of their Marin County lungs for the press and people to stay the hell away from the butcher “clinics”.

    What a legacy.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “You do realize that you and Joe (and Michael O’Hanlon) are in almost total agreement on this subject, right?”

    To the contrary, I make no prediction as to what Klein or North Korea will be doing or saying in 5 minutes.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “Say what you will, but that distillation of Joe’s principles on the matter was quite cogent.”

    Until this week they still paid by the noun at Time, correct?

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Rest assured that I haven’t joined the ACLU and Peabrains For The Amer-Asian Wake just yet — since I won’t be subscribing to any tome that stupidly thinks we’re being now managed by a cadre of the best & brightest (versus Bush, Cheney). Holbrooke’s grand diplomatic victory in Yugoslavia was made possible by U.S. military power, not the power of Soggy Bottoms persuasion.

    Anyone that thinks the Taliban will be laying down guns as fast as the French, er, Paki army needs to have their noodle examined.

    Obama’s a bigger cheerleader than Bush (I really expected Skippy to do the splits on stage after his 10 Year tirade on Tuesday), but even the eloquent need a sense of reality.

    Hopefully that change won’t be too far gone either.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Did I mention that John Kerry’s still a flaming dork?

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    cougargal06

    Ahem.

    GIVE IT A REST, EH BABS?

    Hamas STEALS every other load of U.N. aid into Gaza, just like the thugs in Somalia, Darfur, Nigeria, on & on & on.

    Basic SECURITY is the first step, followed by fair ELECTIONS, followed by fair LAW ENFORCEMENT. Nothing good will flow short of those difficult realities being achieved, anywhere on the globe. Not rocket science, just harder for some liberals to grasp than their life partner’s nuts.

    The children will be fed when the adults start to act like adults, and not foaming rabid rats.

  • stuartzechman

    Did I mention that Joe Klein is not a liberal?

  • Friar Tuck

    Stuart, you big meanie, you scared QH into messing his/her/its diaper again.

  • formerlyjames

    sz, thanks for the link to your blog. Little did I know that you, Rose, Jay, and PD were a team. But how can you tell who wrote the blog post, for example, the one about Klein? There is no attribution.

  • plukasiak

    You mean like Pakistan? Where Swat is controlled by the Taliban and Punjab and Sindh are controlled by Zardari?
    _
    No moron, I mean no central authority at all. Not a nation where over 99% of the people are under “central authority” and less than 1% live in a region that is more autonomous than the others.

  • jcapan

    “Why is it that we only find you responding to discredited rightists’ foreign policy pronouncements?”
    ~
    Wonderful question. Where have I heard that before? At least previous to this he wasn’t agreeing with war criminals and discredited/defeated neocon presidential candidates.
    ~
    Groundhog Day redux
    ~
    Joe, honestly, could you illustrate for us why you exclusively link to/debate with the right wingers, but absolutely refuse to give a voice to anyone left of your estab. views? You don’t have to agree with them, mind you, but acknowledging that they do indeed exist, representing the views of millions of Americans (and most of the free world), would be appreciated. This is a genuine question and I’m really curious. Why is Henry F’ing Kissinger acceptable but Chomsky is not? How is Kissinger serious and Zinn is so easily dismissed? I get that there are some here who take what you say seriously, more who only read dead-tree, and sadly many who seem to think Obama marks a major departure from the Bush fo-po. But those of us who aren’t total rubes would appreciate not being assaulted with this CRAP.

  • stuartzechman

    formerlyjames:
    .
    It says “Posted by stuart_zechman at 7:53 AM” at the bottom.
    .
    Jay Ackroyd and I got together for coffee, and were discussing the hilarity of some commenters here suddenly exclaiming “Hey, Joe Klein isn’t such a bad guy!” as soon as Joe got himself hitched to Obama’s bandwagon –which was some time after David Brooks got himself hitched to Obama’s bandwagon.
    .
    I was telling Jay “Of course Joe’s for universal healthcare…Bill Clinton was for universal healthcare. It’s a huge part of centrist ideology. It’s not that they want liberalism to replace conservatism, though. They want us to shut up, go back to work/mall feeling more secure with technocrats in charge, so they then can go right back to attacking liberalism again for the crazy idea that ordinary people should get out of church/livingroom, and help run their government –whether their betters in the Beltway like it or not.
    .
    Jay looked at me strangely, and said “Hmmm…I haven’t heard it put exactly that way before. Can you write something about that tonight?
    .
    I told him “Sure, it’ll just take me a few minutes…
    .
    It’s too bad our managing editor seems to be AWOL, it’s a good blog. I love the other writers.

  • oizydoizy

    No moron, I mean no central authority at all
     
    Well, hey c*ck sucker, if huge sections of my putatative territory were under control of someone else, and I didn’t want it that way, I’d say I have a civil war on my hands. If the US mountain west broke off successfully, that is a failure of the central government. Even more so because so few of them managed to do it.
     
    So, thanks again for proving my point, jack ass.

  • atsegga

    The Borgen Project has some good info on the cost of addressing global poverty.

    $30 billion: Annual shortfall to end world hunger.
    $550 billion: U.S. Defense budget

  • hlongley

    “How do you prevent the terrorists from establishing havens if you don’t have a stable, effective Afghan nation-state?”

    Afghanistan was not historically a haven for terrorists, even though the Afghan state (pre-Daoud) was a pretty hands-off, limited operation. I believe the basic problem in Afghanistan is the continued clash between cosmopolitanism (all the stuff we in modern or post-modern people think important) and the traditional (lots of attitudes and values that we modernists thing repressive, retrograde and — in some cases — immoral). The fighters who took on the Soviet Union did not do so in order to build a democratic state. They did so because they were morally offended by the Western project. Whether this came in the guise of communism or capitalism was of much less import than the fact that the imposition of western/modern values on a traditional, tribal society was correctly perceived by the vast majority of Afghans (not the Kabul elite) as an assault on values they held deeply. It may well be that there is no possibility of a status quo ante in Afghanistan, given all that this sad an beautiful country has suffered in the last 35 or so years, but I see no reason to believe that a “stable, effective Afghan state” is in the offing, particularly not one that is designed in places like Washington D.C. It might make a bit of sense to give up the effort to impose a bunch of alien institutions on this country. Further, sending lots of young soldiers with little understanding of the history, culture and languages of Afghanistan wandering around the countryside with lots of firepower and justifiable anxiety about getting killed themselves is a great recipe for ensuring that “the terrorists” will find support. Until we understand that our troubles with terror are at least partly the result of our hubris and contempt for other ways of living, prescriptions from Mssrs. McCain, Kissinger, or any other advocate of the western project will miss the mark, or so it seems to me.

  • shepherdwong

    “…the stabilization of the Pakistani nation-state is far more important than anything happening across the border in Afghanistan. Get Pakistan right and you have a chance in Afghanistan. Get Pakistan wrong and you have no chance.”
    .
    And if Afghanistan falls back into the control of the Taliban and al Qaeda, Pakistan will be a cakewalk, right? Seriously, you need to give up your false dichotomy on this one. For the purposes of stability and safe havens for our enemies, you should learn to see it more as a single region that two separate countries. If either fails, it’s going to be a tough row to hoe to try to stabilize the other.

  • plukasiak

    Joe, honestly, could you illustrate for us why you exclusively link to/debate with the right wingers, but absolutely refuse to give a voice to anyone left of your estab. views?
    _
    because he would be forced to disagree with those on the left, because JK is (like everyone on the right) a hegemonist — and be in even deeper doo-doo with the commentariate here.
    _
    I mean, for crying out loud, half the time JK is doing everything he can to pander to us (see the matalin post above) — the commentariate is constantly pointing out something stupid that a right winger says, and demanding “why don’t you post about THAT”!?!

  • 836oak

    This moronic statement is what Joe said is the MOST important thing — FIGURING OUT how much cooperatinn.

    Cooperation my arse. Get the pudge out of Afghan, what the hell are we doing? Making sure there are no terrorist in the whole blooming world? What are you nuts? SO you want to dominate country after country to make sure there are no terrorists?

    You idiot, you will create more terrorist this way, dumb arse. Get the hell off oil you idiots, we should have done this 40 years ago, you selfish short sighted morons. THATS the most important thing – if its not too late.

  • jcapan

    P-Luk,
    ~
    To you, the ? was rhetorical, given that we agree on most things. To Joe, it’s not–I’d genuinely like to see his rationale, however disingenous or dismissive. I love the juxtaposition: how frat-boy MS can declare GG a liberal legal scold while JK spends most of his energy engaging with rightist loons. Again, fair enough if he thinks radicals like me are loons, but why lefties don’t merit a place at the table, at all, is obviously telling.
    ~
    For me, the neocon knuckledraggers are not perceived as a threat to the system while the left is.

  • jcapan

    And as for the pandering, whether it’s 4 or 8 years down the line, when the pendulum swings (Joe’s licked index finger in the air), he’ll be pandering to the repugs too.

  • formerlyjames

    sz, belated thanks for the info.

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