In the Arena

The Russians Are Coming? Really?

Various conservatives have jumped on my support for President Obama’s attempt to negotiate with Russia–and my belief we should keep in perspective Russia’s various attempts to intimidate its near-neighbors. My favorite is Michael Goldfarb, who served as a McCain pistolero during the campaign and now blogs for the Weekly Standard. As we saw last year, Goldfarb has a penchant for reinventing history–and now he defends McCain’s “We are all Georgians” blurt, and criticizes Barack Obama for calling on both sides to cool it.

But, of course, Obama was right. According to the Organization for Security  Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) and British monitors on the scene, the Georgians–whose democracy is an inspiration, but not a vital national interest of the United States–foolishly provoked the Russian assault. Furthermore, Goldfarb slags me for pointing out that the Abkhazians (and the Ossetians, for that matter) see themselves more as independent ethnic entities than part of Georgia. Ethnic atomization has been a distinctive part of the post-Soviet crackup–and I, for one, don’t know where to draw the line: Should Chechens get their independence, the Ossetians, the North Ossetians, the Abkhazians? Or is this an internal Russian affair? Reality dictates the latter. We’re not going to go to war over Georgia–although McCain might well have, which is why we’re lucky he lost.

Finally, I love these guys who go after me on motes of dust, but don’t engage on the larger point. Let me repeat: Russia is not the Soviet Union. Except for its nuclear arsenal, it is in no way, shape or form a credible rival–which is why we should be doing what Bush neglected to do: buying up and negotiating down as much of the Russian arsenal as we can. Furthermore, Russia has the potential to be very helpful to us in both Iran and Afghanistan. We should see if we can exploit that, rather than ginning up a rivalry that was always overstated–as Daniel Patrick Moynihan used to say, the Soviet Union was a “sham”–and is now twenty years out of date.

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  • FlownOver

    Interesting question – should Georgians subdivide based on ethnic distinctions? If so, how about South Carolinians?

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    In this world, we have finite resources and finite power, so we have to make choices.
    -
    Goldfarb, and the rest of the GOP, are playing GI Joe instead.
    -
    A fine post.

  • queencersei

    We may understand that the Russia we are dealing with is not the old Soviet Union. But do the Russians understand that? And I am still in no way convinced that the Russians want to do anything constructive about Iran. At least how we would term it. Does Russia really want Iran and the U.S. to have a better relationship? I doubt it.

  • 53_3

    “If so, how about South Carolinians?”
    .
    I think the those SC’ers that are also GOP’ers would be very much at home in Ossetia.
    .
    It’s pretty white…

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    When Putin has a journalist popped, Klein thinks that’s just collateral damage.

    No big whoop.

    Move On.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “…It’s pretty white…”

    GO WAX OBONGO’S CADILLAC.

  • 53_3

    “GO WAX OBONGO’S CADILLAC.”
    .
    I would, but I already have a job, and I don’t need yours…

  • Friar Tuck

    I think the those SC’ers that are also GOP’ers would be very much at home in Ossetia.
    .
    They’ve certainly made the place a lot like Ossetia for the rest of us here.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    this also means that the wingnuts are beginning to believe that the war on terrah doesn’t have legs.

  • hotbbq

    If only we could spin climate change to the GOP into an eco-friendly arms race with the rest of the world. They would get a nice, easy to understand enemy that must be destroyed. We must not have a carbon sequestering mine-shaft gap!

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    When Putin has a journalist popped, Klein thinks that’s just collateral damage.
    -
    Nice– to folks of this mentality, the US bears more responsibility for the Putin-ordered death of a journalist in Russia than for the collateral damage we have actually caused in Afghanistan and Iraq (to say nothing of the increased mortality, at least in Iraq).
    -
    One might think that people who think like that should be on display in the zoo like some sort of Wingnut Mars. Instead, they’ve been running foreign policy in this country for the last decade.

  • palininatowel

    What would Bobby Jindal do?

  • sneezeguard

    Russia wants to do what’s best for Russia, if we seek to be antagonistic what’s best for Russia very likely will be what’s bad for the U.S.
    .
    We have to stop looking at international politics as a zero sum game, of winners and losers. There’s a lot of reasons why negotiations and cooperation will provide for benefits to both sides of the table. Pretty much every country is selfish, but we’ll probably all do better cooperating than squabbling, so we should really start moving towards that (in the very broad, general theory of international relations. Sometimes you’ve gotta be mean, sometimes you’ve gotta be nice, I’m not talking about specific situations here, just the overall goal.)

  • plukasiak

    Shorter Joe Klein:
    _
    “The Taliban is coming! The Taliban is coming!” alarmist rhetoric?
    Si!
    _
    “The Russians are coming! The Russians are coming!” alarmist rhetoric?
    No!

  • palininatowel

    sneeze, this is the Bush-Cheney hangover:
    .

    We have to stop looking at international politics as a zero sum game, of winners and losers.

    .
    Eight years of “black or white,” “with us or against us,” patriot or cut-and-runner.”
    .
    This simplistic drivel infected every branch of government and every discussion, from foreign policy to the environment.
    .
    It is going to take Obama and his administration a while to get us out of this inane rut of anti-intellectualism that was the hallmark of Bush and Cheney.
    .
    Yes, Virginia, there are gray areas…

  • billiecat

    If South Carolina subdivides based on ethnic distinctions, I’m going to have to secede. I don’t want Mark Sanford and Jim DeMented moving next door to me or trying to marry my daughter.

  • piper1

    “the Georgians–whose democracy is an inspiration, but not a vital national interest of the United States”
    .
    This bring up a very important point that was seemingly lost in the “democratize Iraq” battle of years past- since when does “democracy” mean “friendly to American interests?” If you give every Palestinian a vote, does anyone really think they would vote to maintain Israeli oppression over their society? How about the Iraqis, Lebanese, Syrians, or anyone else that the Bush Administration set its “democracy agenda” upon? Given the choice, does anyone think they would side with the American and against their Arab and Muslim brethren?
    .
    Bottom line, democracy is probably the least-worst governing scenario yet devised, but a more democratic society does not automatically make one more accomodating to the Great Hegemony Project. The goal of democratization sounds a lot better in theory than it is likely to manifest itself in practice.
    .
    I’d like to see the Obama Administration focus on more practical goals than democratizing the world.

  • piper1

    Oh, and Michael Goldfarb is a tremendous tool.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    since when does “democracy” mean “friendly to American interests?
    .
    ‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,’ it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.
    .
    It is in this same sense that “terrorist” means “whoever happened to be in that building we just blew up.”
    .
    You get used to it after a while.
    .
    You’re not bucking to be the new language cop, are you?

  • 53_3

    “They’ve certainly made the place a lot like Ossetia for the rest of us here.”
    .
    Does this mean that Russia is about to attack SC?
    .
    Damn! Lets blame this on Canada, and attack them!

  • piper1

    “You’re not bucking to be the new language cop, are you”
    .
    Umm, I don’t think I am. Never was a big fan of police (at least in America. In Europe they actually make you feel safe instead of oppressed).

  • formerlyjames

    I very much agree with every word in this blog post. I think an aliance with Russia would be of great value. We collaborate fully it seems in scientific fields. Why not on earth? America has been brain washed so thoroughly over the past 60 years that it may be impossible to break out of the mind set which conjures images of Stalin when Russia is mentioned. He was Georgian btw. The scenes in the movie Paton when the Russians are celebrating WWII victory and Paton’s staff are sitting like church ladies with sticks up their behinds still linger in this country. Russia has experienced a great evolution and is continuing to do so. America has not evolved in regard to Russia. It is stuck in the past.
    .
    I really think a US/Russian alliance could be the greatest in history. I also really believe that it won’t happen in my lifetime. I would place the major part of the fault with the US. Next topic of diminished returns for US foreign policy? Cuba?

  • FlownOver

    billecat –

    +1 for the obscure Dylan reference.

  • Friar Tuck

    53_3,
    .
    The Russkies are no threat to South Carolina. The minute they venture out on to I-95, every single one of their vehicles will need an immediate front-end alignment. While stuck, we will lure them into our public schools, where they will lose 30 points off their IQ before the fish fry, which we will taint with some fine Georgia or Texas peanut butter.
    .
    They’ll be toast before Governor Sanford even has a chance to deny them unemployment benefits.

  • iwasindependent

    Joe- I would say one interest of the United States in Georgia is the BTC oil pipeline. While the value of that interest may be debated and also lead into discussion of energy independence, we shouldn’t fool ourselves into thinking there’s nothing of American interest in Georgia.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan_pipeline
    .

  • 53_3

    Ve should consider dropping Hula into their midst armed with a green swizzle stick and bright read tights. That will only add to their confusion.
    .
    Yessssss. Our zeecret veapon…

  • billiecat

    FlownOver – I’m liberal to a degree, but I have my limits.

  • http://www.ghostnote.com Cookie Puss

    Palin on DefCon 1.

  • FlownOver

    billie – apropos here –

    Well, I don’t know but I’ve been told
    The streets of Heaven are lined with gold.
    I ask ya how things could get much worse if the Russians happen to get up there first.
    .
    Wow-ee. Pretty scary.

  • koabd

    “since when does ‘democracy’ mean ‘friendly to American interests?’”
    .
    Well, there was a time when the two could have been interconnected. Right after World War II, when the United States was pushing its British and French allies to turnover its colonial holdings to the indigenous populations, if we had just let nature take it’s course, we might have had friendly democracies.
    .
    Instead, we depose Mossadegh in Iran because he threatened the oil bidness. We played a role in the murder of Lamumba because he had ideas to better the lot of his people that were contrary to the US’s Cold War objectives. We provided for the coup that removed Allende from power because he said things that sounded vaugely communist.
    .
    The problem is we have always talked a good game about “freedom” and “democracy” as long as those we are talking about practice those things within narrow guidelines — namely be good for American business and don’t say anything that can be construed as communist. Otherwise, your country gets the pleasure of having a US armed and backed dictator.
    .
    Hopefully we’ve turned the corner on this type of short-sighted behavior in foreign policy, but that has yet to be seen.

  • Cliff

    Never was a big fan of police (at least in America. In Europe they actually make you feel safe instead of oppressed).
    .
    I’ve read that the Italian cops are pretty nasty:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/2403866/Italian-police-officers-found-guilty-over-G8-protest-brutality.html
    .
    Is that still the case?

  • jcapan

    I’m shocked, shocked! Joe linking to another wingnut.

  • atsegga

    The Borgen Project has some good info on the cost of addressing global poverty.

    $30 billion: Annual shortfall to end world hunger.
    $550 billion: U.S. Defense budget

  • afguy

    koabd Says:
    .
    Hopefully we’ve turned the corner on this type of short-sighted behavior in foreign policy, but that has yet to be seen.

    Yeah, me too. Your summary encapsulates our philosophy of failure in many areas of the world over a long period of time.

  • bitterpill8

    Joe: Why are you engaging wingnuts? First it was Commentary, then the NRO and now the Weekly Standard. Why are you responding to idiots? Look: if you want to do something worthwhile why not go to Russia and interview both Medvedev and Putin. Ask them to talk about how they want to project Russian power while their economy is tanking? Then come back home and ask our folks how they intend to project power while our economy is on the skids.

    Frankly Joe: you are dealing with a collection of a##holes and the whiff they give off is a downer. By the way, if you want to appear on Morning Joe know that Joe and Pat have a one note issue and Mika is an idiot.

  • WisconsinLiberal

    As far as European (or at least Swiss) police (especially airport police) are concerned, 3 times as likely to be carrying an automatic weapon, 5 times as likely to smile. Though I suppose the mentality could be that you don’t need to look intimidating if you’re carrying a machine gun…

  • jcapan

    Again, Afghan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, name the country or conflict, real or imagined. There is what Joe will talk about and there is reality, geopolitics and the resources that drive the debates and our policies:
    ~
    http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/5462
    ~
    Just once I’d like to hear a pol or their MSM shills speak of reality. Hey, our fo-po is fundamentally about protecting/strengthening access to resources. Cool–I may disagree but I can respect the honesty involved. But democracy, human rights–utter f@cking hogwash. Save it for the cocktail circuit Joe Klein.
    ~
    Note: I do appreciate that you see this potential conflict, war over Georgia, as nonsensical. Nice to know you have limits.

  • centfan

    As someone who works with a large collection of educated Russians (or in some cases those from territories that were very close to the communist hub) transmogrified to this country, I have to mention that the communist management structure, or its shadow, was very damaging to their psyches. Obviously much depends on the individual and their confidence in handling some of the culture shock, but in the work place it’s the boss playing the minions off against each other. It can be a real head scratcher, but dividing into “camps” and stabbing each other in the back to get a crumb from “he who sponsors their visa” seems to be a survival behavior pattern left over from their upbringing (these aren’t old guys by any stretch).
    -
    I’m not saying cooperation is bad, but it might take one more generation to shake off the ghosts… especially when organized crime (from their accounts) has taken over where the communists left off.

  • stuartzechman

    I largely agree with Joe Klein on the substance of his objections, but it is rather odd that he will only debate the rightest of the rightists, and continues to pretend that nobody to his left exists…

  • Art Pepper

    pluk: That may be shorter Klein, but I’m sympathetic to the view. It wasn’t the Ruskies giving Al Qaeda safe haven before 9/11.
    .
    I’m kind of surprised that some of the commenters here are so sanguine about Afghanistan and Pakistan. (Or just resigned?) From everything I’m reading and hearing, the situation is scary and getting scarier.

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