In the Arena

Is Islam Growing More Militant?

Mark Steyn argues yes, sort of. Mostly he’s concerned with Britain’s wussy, censorious refusal to allow the Dutch parliamentarian/documentarian Geert Wilders to show his film about Islamic radicalism, “Fitna,” in the U.K. Well, we can agree on this: the west should, under no circumstances, allow its freedom of speech to compromised by threats from the Muslim world. 

And we can agree that Pakistan’s government is losing–worse, it’s conceding–the battle against radical Islamists in  its northwest frontier regions…although that phenomenon is more attributable to the Pakistani military’s anti-Indian strategy, and the Islamabad government’s failure to provide basic services like a judicial system than it is to the philosophical appeal of the jihadis.

But here is where Steyn really goes off the rails:

Between 1970 and 2000, the developed world declined from just under 30 percent of the global population to just over 20 percent, while the Muslim world increased from 15 percent to 20 percent. And in 2030, it won’t even be possible to re-take that survey, because by that point half the “developed world” will itself be Muslim: in Bradford as in London, Amsterdam, Brussels and almost every other western European city from Malmo to Marseilles the principal population growth comes from Islam.

Along with the demographic growth has come radicalization: It’s not just that there are more Muslims, but that, within that growing population, moderate Islam is on the decline – in Singapore, in the Balkans, in northern England – and radicalized, Arabized, Wahhabized Islam is on the rise. So we have degrees of accommodation: surrender in Islamabad, appeasement in London, acceptance in Toronto and Buffalo.

This is not only crude religious bigotry, it also ignores recent indications that the jihadi tide is ebbing. The most exciting and hopeful example is in Iraq, where Sunnis thoroughly rejected Al-Qaeda style extremism, first via the Awakening Movement and more recently in elections (where secular parties made major gains). The more moderate Muslims are surging in strength in Indonesia–the world’s largest Muslim country–and in India, where the jihadi extremism of the Mumbai Attacks has been vehemently, publicly, rejected by the local Muslim population. It’s even possible that Iran will reject Ahmadinejad’s extremism and replace him with a more moderate president in elections this June.

Pakistan is a real problem, demanding a real response before the jihadis get any closer to Islamabad. There are other fruitless but compelling manifestations of Islamic extremism in the world–Hamas, Hizballah. And there are places, like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, where Muslim Brotherhood groups are strengthened by the brutal autocracy of the dominant governments. But make no mistake: wherever they’ve been given the free choice, Muslims have rejected extremism more often than not in the past few years. Which is excellent news, indeed.

Update: Mark Steyn has responded to this post…by not responding to this post, but to a commenter, Park Dirks, who–appropriately–called Steyn a lazy thinker. Which, of course, is the nicest way to put it. Steyn cites that transcendent authority, the former Malaysian leader Mohatir Mohammed, as his source on Muslim backwardness. QED, I’m sure. Unquestionably, the Muslims have had a dreadful century or three. The past hundred years have been particularly awful. But I’m not so sure I’d go much farther back than the Enlightenment for evidence of relative depravity–especially when comparing Islam with Christianity. Spain, for example, traded down in civilization and tolerance when the Muslims were kicked out. As a Jew, I’m pretty sure I would have fared better in the Ottoman than the Holy Roman Empire. And I’m not sure I’d vouch for the civility of the British and Russians who played their Great Game in Central Asia over that of the local tribes they invaded and butchered. 

Steyn is a certain editorial sort–the broadbrush mockingbird, a cynical satirist with not much interest in nuance or fact, an indirect descendent of H.L. Mencken. (Matt Taibi walks the same stony path from a different ideological direction.) This can provide a certain puerile entertainment. Mencken was no less intolerant of the American South than Steyn is of Muslims (read The Sahara of the Beaux Arts, if you haven’t). But the mockery is laced with an absence of humanity that seems harsher when times turn tough: Mencken’s work in the 1930s grew increasingly foolish and boring. And this sort of bitter satire is no fun at all when lives are at stake.

In Steyn’s case, a fierce insistence on the obvious comes equipped with a hung-over neocolonialist sensibility. I’m actually reading Churchill’s Malakand Field Force right now, which Steyn cites in his column…and I’m torn between curiosity and horror. Churchill was a fabulous stylist, but very much a man of his time–that is, a stone racist. He remained, to the end of his life, an unapologetic imperialist. You wonder what on earth the Brits were doing prancing about the Himalayan foothills, which had little possibility of economic exploitation, other than playing polo and slaughtering tribesmen. Indeed, we are paying the price for the British foolishness in the subcontinent to this day. Ask yourself why the Durand line, which divides Afghanistan and Pakistan, was drawn right down the middle of the Pashtun territorities? My guess is that if the Brits were a little more respectful of the locals, and drew lines that adhered to proper boundaries, the Pashtu wouldn’t be so interested in rebellion–or such easy prey for those, like Al Qaeda, who facilitate such.

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  • FlownOver

    At least our Brit cousins are being consistent in their wussy, censorious stands of late. They’ve also banned the Phelps Phamily Circus, the shame of Topeka, from bringing their congenital homophobic lunacy into Britain. Phred and Shirley and their zombie clan are foaming and fuming, evidently unaware their message is fast becoming “God hates humanity.”

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Between 1970 and 2000, the developed world declined from just under 30 percent of the global population to just over 20 percent, while the Muslim world increased from 15 percent to 20 percent.
    .
    Constructing a dichotomy bnetween “Developed” and “Muslim”?
    .
    The language cop in me, needless to say, not only finds that offensive but utterly lazy as well.
    .
    I’m reminded of a book I found among family heirlooms. It is a “Rand-McNally Geography textbook (Kansas edition) dated 1903. In it, there’s a chapter describing the various “races of man” sorting them by their degree of “development.” (It ranked the “Chinese” at the bottom due to their lack of a phonetic alphabet.) To my post-60′s ear I found the language expressed astounding and was amazed that this was being taught to children in my Grandfather’s lifetime. Little did I know that such thinking had not been rendered untenebale but had merely fallen breifly out of fashion.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Why do some men throw around the word”wussy” and use Gandhi as a pejorative? I have a guess.

  • Cliff

    I hadn’t heard that about the Phelps family. That’s pretty great.

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  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Again this is why I always search for the truth independently. Funny thing about this story, it assumes that the movie wasn’t shown. At least thats what this line sounds like to me.
    .

    Mostly he’s concerned with Britain’s wussy, censorious refusal to allow the Dutch parliamentarian/documentarian Geert Wilders to show his film about Islamic radicalism, “Fitna,” in the U.K.

    .
    There is only one problem. It WAS shown, at least at the very gathering that Steyn is complaining about.
    .
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7885918.stm
    .

    The Lords screening went ahead as planned, despite Mr Wilder’s non-attendance.
    .
    BBC political correspondent Iain Watson said about 30 people had been at the screening and had given a round of applause, while calling for a debate on the issues raised.

    .
    Of course any time some lightweight journo who has probably lost every fight he engaged in and whose views on the world change with the prevailing political winds calls someone else “wussy” it always makes me chuckle a bit. Now you can read the whole BBC account to see why this man was denied entry into the country, mostly its because he is up on charges for inciting hate in a Dutch court. This is not in any the way shape or form abnormal, as people like Snoop, Martha Stewart, and Louis Farrakhan have all been denied entry also. Besides that, I doubt Geert Wilders is the type any of us would be leading a protest for so he could get into the UK. Now to say we don’t censor in this country is to forget the sh*t storm a damn nipple at the Superbowl caused a couple years back. But I guess for some using macho words like “wussy” really makes them feel like a man lol.
    .
    Now don’t anybody hold Joe Klein accountable for this discrepancy. Remember, he doesn’t think fact checking blog posts is a good use of his time. lol
    .
    I can’t wait for another snide strawman response that doesn’t address why he was wrong about the UK censoring Wilders.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    By the way, I thought many of you might like to read the account from Congress members Ellison and Baird about what they saw when they went into the Gaza Strip on Thursday. For once there wasn’t any sugar coating.
    .
    http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/wa03_baird/morenews1/GazaTrip.shtml
    .
    “If this had happened in our own country, there would be national outrage and an appeal for urgent assistance. We are glad that the Obama administration acted quickly to send much needed funding for this effort but the arbitrary and unreasonable Israeli limitations on food and repair essentials is unacceptable and indefensible. People, innocent children, women and non-combatants, are going without water, food and sanitation, while the things they so desperately need are sitting in trucks at the border, being denied permission to go in” said Baird and Ellison.
    .
    Now lets be reminded that Congressman Ellison is a Muslim who knows full well that because of saying what he actually saw there will be a rush to charge him with anti semitism. Especially considering some of the rhetoric that has been thrown his way since taking office. However he still chose to call it like he saw it, politics be damned. Now thats what you call REAL courage. And him I could tolerate calling someone a wuss.

  • michaelevan

    If anyone’s interested, Mark Steyn has just responded to this post, weirdly going after Paul Dirks instead of Joe Klein. I haven’t looked up the context of the quote he cites, but I have a strange feeling he’s taking it out of context.

  • michaelevan

    oh, in case it wasn’t clear, by ‘he’ I meant Mark Steyn. He’s a bigot.

  • Cliff

    Go Paul Dirks!

  • rose83

    Thanks for the Steyn link. That’s a little… weird.
    .
    And I didn’t know that there are no Muslims in the developed world. I guess all my Muslims friends in developed countries are either illegal immigrants or lying about their faith. And even the President is a Mus- Oh, sorry I mixed up those two different types of bigoted paranoia.
    .
    Also… the Gulf states. Can we really saw they’re undeveloped?

  • rose83

    Of the 46 Muslim majority nations in the world, only three were free.
    .
    Well to be fair it doesn’t help that many Muslim countries either have, or neighbor countries that have, massive oil resources. That hasn’t always worked well for their political development: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Oh sh*t FRESH MEAT
    .
    Somebody better tell resident dumb ass Mark Steyn that Swamplanders not only stick together but we ALSO go to source links. Let’s provide some context to the quote from Mahathir bin Mohammad who is the former prime minister of Malaysia.
    .
    Here is what he went on to say in the article Steyn quotes and appropriately it pretty much addresses Steyn and other ass holes just like him.
    .

    In addition to poverty, ignorance and instability have become such common features in the Muslim world that its detractors assume these afflictions are the natural consequences of following the teachings of Islam, Mahathir said.
    .
    Yet it is a historical fact that Muslims were at one time the world’s most advanced people in all fields of human endeavour. When European Christians were wallowing in the Dark Ages and Jews were wandering rootless all over the world, Muslims were the biggest traders, producers of goods, strategists, navigators and defenders of their faith, he said.
    .
    Christians and Jews lived freely under the success of the Muslims; many people embraced Islam so that much of the world became Muslim, he said.Muslims were respected and no one dared to to desecrate the Qur’an or insult the Prophet and his teachings.

    .
    Now understand this is from the VERY SAME ARTICLE that Steyn uses for his justification. Now I wonder if he agrees with the rest of Mohammed’s statements or does he instead just give weight to the parts of the story that HE wants to pervert. Well Mr. Steyn, your turn. Try to squirm your slimy ass out of this one. Are you agreeing that the world was at one time Muslim and that Christians and Jews didn’t have a clue and we all were much inferior to the Muslims? Buehler?
    .
    And remember, don’t start nothing, won’t BE nothing. Punk.

  • formerlyjames

    Congratulations to Paul Dirks who shot and scored. Me thinks Mark Steyn doth protest too much. You hit a nerve PD.

  • http://michaelevan.wordpress.com michaelevan

    Yeah, and speaking of Freedom House rankings, Mark Steyn might recall this report (summarized here) from Freedom House last year about freedom under Bush.

  • formerlyjames

    PD, another thought-William Buckley would have given you one of those raised eyebrow smug smiles he did so well.

  • formerlyjames

    sg, in my haste to congratulate PD, I overlooked your fine contribution. The discussion could go on to include the advance of wahabism. Thanks.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    “Why do some men throw around the word”wussy” and use Gandhi as a pejorative? I have a guess.”
    .
    I was taking Klein to task for just that thing a couple days ago. Klein still lives in a Reagan world where men are men and women are liberals and war is always the answer and always, regretfully, the only serious course of action. As far as censorship goes, we censor plenty in this country, namely the corporate owned media’s censorious refusal to allow any viewpoints that do not further the corporate agenda or that threaten the interests of corporate America. So enough w/ the self righteousness already Mr. ke’Line.
    .
    Someone posted here that now that this America isn’t THEIR America anymore, the wingnuts really seem to hate it. I think this Steyn reaction, and the reaction of Glen BBeck is something we’ll see more and more from white heartland America as they see hegemony slip away. They’re scared. Maybe they feel a little guilty?

  • 2cute4prison

    PD and SG, get some!!!

  • bitterpill8

    Joe, maybe you should ignore NRO and Commentary.

  • flagrantenigma

    Wilders published his political manifesto in March 2005. Some of its key points included:

    Banning Islamic headwear in public functions,
    Ending all admittance of asylum seekers,
    Creating a maximum limit of 5000 political refugees,
    Creating a 5 year moratorium on bride taking from foreign countries,
    Cutting taxes dramatically,
    Decreasing the number of civil servants by half,
    Stopping enlargement of the EU,
    Changing prisoner laws to house 5 in one cell,
    Building feeding camps and discipline schools,
    Expanding the police while using the army within public zones,
    Deporting criminals with a dual nationality,
    Banning Islamic schools,
    Test school children about the Dutch national identity,
    Reorganizing the provinces and government system,
    Closing the Dutch Senate,
    Limiting public television to a single channel

    Yes, I can see why Joe Klein finds him so compatible. What a perfect match of bigoted minds. Tell me, Joe, when do you plan to sign up for the feeding camp? Or will it be the discipline school for you?

  • Art Pepper

    I’m not sure I’d vouch for the civility of the British and Russians who played their Great Game in Central
    .
    This is a really good point. I think we’re still paying for the damage caused by British imperialism and arbitrarily drawn maps.
    .
    But don’t forget the United States has played much the same game, albeit usually in a quasi-covert fashion. Who funded the mujahadeen, later to become Taliban? Who held hands with the Saudi royal family? Who staged the coup against Mossadeq and installed the Shah?

  • flagrantenigma

    “Who funded the mujahadeen, later to become Taliban? Who held hands with the Saudi royal family? Who staged the coup against Mossadeq and installed the Shah?”

    Well, Joe Klein, obviously!

  • cfukara

    ” “.. radicalization: It’s not just that there
    are more Muslims, but that, within that growing
    population, moderate Islam is on the decline …”

    ..a real problem, demanding a real response before the jihadis get any closer to Islamabad.”

    Somehow, JK doesn’t often use words like “moderate christians” or “radicalization” when referring to the likes of KKK and Aryan Nation.

    Is the creeping presence of the various supremacist, Palestinian-hating, radical, ultra-orthodox jewish groups in Israel (call them the “the extremist judaists, since we are into name calling) a concern to you and the USA administration?

    “jihadis”?
    JK, you may be a crusading extremist.

    .

    Day 34 – - Without a declaration from the president that the radical extreme judeo-christianist KKK and “Aryan Nation” of “hateful ideologies” are TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS – to be dealt with as such.

  • juniusredivivus

    “a cynical satirist with not much interest in nuance or fact”

    In other words, Jokeline himself! What sort of cretin asks meaningless, sensational questions like “Is Islam getting more militant”? Haven’t you learned anything from the Bush fiasco? You don’t remember the distinction between Sunni and Shia? You don’t realize that Wahhabi and Salafi intepretations of Islam (both Sunni) are not the majority at this point? You can’t be bothered to ask whether it would make sense to ask “Is Christianity growing more militant”? Can’t you see any difference between Catholics, Baptists, Episcopalians, the Wassila Assembly of God? Your lazy, arrogant and fact-free reporting is one of the reasons why people followed Bush to war, and why we continue to be in this mess.

  • bdcook

    Let’s stipulate for the purpose of argument that Mr. Klein is correct when he responds to Mr. Steyn with the following argument:
    “The most exciting and hopeful example is in Iraq, where Sunnis thoroughly rejected Al-Qaeda style extremism, first via the Awakening Movement and more recently in elections (where secular parties made major gains). The more moderate Muslims are surging in strength in Indonesia–the world’s largest Muslim country–and in India, where the jihadi extremism of the Mumbai Attacks has been vehemently, publicly, rejected by the local Muslim population. It’s even possible that Iran will reject Ahmadinejad’s extremism and replace him with a more moderate president in elections this June.” This argument doesn’t refute Mr. Steyn’s but rather complements it: where the jihadi movement has had its say, if you will – in Anbar, Mumbai, Indonesia, and Iran – those victimized societies have rejected it. If Mr. Steyn is right – as I think he is – then this wave of increased-then-decreased jihadism will flow east to west as those populations have. In otbher words we’ll see the accommodation spectrum he articulates as a continual movement from acceptance to appeasement to surrender, all moved along by the thrust of violence. I rather hope not, but I don’t think the West has done anything to slow or stop such an advance. Either way, Mr. Steyn and Mr. Klein are more compatible than they might appear.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    I hate proving myself correct…I really do:
    .
    “White folks in America are not responsible for the 70 percent illegitimacy rate in the black community…We are not responsible for the fact that African-Americans commit crimes at seven times the rate of whites. We are not responsible for the fact that many more children in the African-American community, 75 percent, are born out of wedlock, as I’ve said…In the statistics on group crime against individuals, gang rape and grang, ah, gang assaults, the numbers are almost 100 to one…In the statistics on group crime against individuals, gang rape and grang, ah, gang assaults, the numbers are almost 100 to one”
    -Pat Buchanan
    http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Buchanan_Dyson_disagree_over_Holders_race_0221.html
    .
    Remember, this person is allowed on television almost every day and his views given tacit approval by our corporate media, just as long as he parrots the corporate approved CWs we’ve all come to loath.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    cincy
    .
    Buchanans an ass hole but why is Dyson even entertaining that son of a biotch? The biggest part of the problem is that we continue to go on all of these shows which gives Buchanana legitimacy. MAYBE if somebody actually drew a line in the sand and declined to ever go back on air with the prick then they would have to get rid of him. But cats like Dyson are too interested in making sure THEY remain relevant to take a principled stance like that.

  • shepherdwong

    Along with the political power has come radicalization: It’s not just that there are more political Christians, but that, within that growing power, moderate Christianity is on the decline – in Shelby, in the Carolinas, in the northern plains – and radicalized, Evangelized Christianity is on the rise. So we have degrees of accommodation: surrender in Wacco, appeasement in Wichita, acceptance in Charlotte and Richmond.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Nicely done Mr Dirks.
    Who is most unhappy?
    Mark Steyn for being punked, which is evident by his last two paragraphs.
    The Corner, which is evident by the two and a half hours with no post on top of Steyn’s.
    Joe Klein for being ignored by The Corner in favor of PD, which is evident by JK’s NOT linking to the response.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Boy, it’s amazing what you can miss when you step away from the desk for a few hours.
    .
    When I thought of Steyn using Muslim vs Developed as a comparison, I immediatly thought of my Muslim co-workers in Chicago who managed the coatings lab where I worked. Were they members of the Muslim world or the developed world? Obviously the question is meaningless. Since the two categories aren’t mutually exclusive, pretending they are is lazy. It’s not very difficult to figure out.

  • ottoman88

    You lost me at “Mark Steyn.”
    .
    Seriously, wasn’t there some deranged homeless man whose opinion you could have used as a springboard instead?

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “…Pakistan’s government is losing–worse, it’s conceding–the battle against radical Islamists…”

    … … …

    Worse, they are state sponsors of terrorism.

    And have been for decades.

    The Russians will continue to screw around in the region, and that’s even more incentive for the U.S. and India to combine their resources to move forward against the known threats, and those in the future.

    NATO’s lack of testes discounted, always.

    Holbrooke and Obama would do better to remember that, and voice it — instead of bashing Bush for recognizing the Paki problems long before the loon left ever did.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    SG, yeah I’m not necessarily a fan of Dyson either but when the corporate media gives someone like Buchanan legitimacy in the first place it’s hard to fault him.
    .
    “Mencken was no less intolerant of the American South than Steyn is of Muslims”
    .
    The diff being that the American South was, is, and will probably always remain, a land of rigid backwardness and studied ignorance. Is there some alternative history in which the American South was once the center of intellectual pursuit and excellence that I’m not aware of? It is the land of the dumbest white people on this planet, and that includes Albania! Commenters like Vonda/Hula prove it everyday, right here at Swampland.
    .
    This is just the beginning. Buchanan, Steyn, Limbaugh, Dobbs et al are laying the foundation of a narrative in which conservative whites were cheated out of their rightful place in society and their ‘heritage’, and whipping up the religiously fundamentalist, nationalist and racist inhabitants of what I(and Robert Sigel) call Dumbf@ckistan. Things are likely to get violent.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “This is just the beginning… Things are likely to get violent.”

    Where?

    Philly, Compton, or NOLA?

    Freakin loontards.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    While the Ruskies and Red Chinese both continue to ramp up new military spending and arms exports, Obama plans massive cuts in U.S. readiness spending – to help pay for fat slacker gaybo “health” care…

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/21/AR2009022100911_pf.html

    Mitt Romney just won the 2012 election.

  • yutsano

    If y’all want to be REALLY ill, follow the link to Steyn’s Obamateur Hour column. Not even Hula could write such lunacy.
    -
    Mitt Romney just won the 2012 election.
    -
    I sit corrected…

  • jcapan

    Steyn himself is the extremist. He goes on Hewitt and Rush, according to Wiki. So, Joe, could you pick a better foil for your centrist/imperialist-lite discourse–text vs. subtext. As I’ve said before, could one of you MSM dullards just once link to a true progressive voice on fo-po or any other issue of merit!? Your calm, reasonable voice, vis a vis Steyn, masks the fact that the end results are largely the same–militarist (non wus/non Gandhi) intervention in 3 countries. You present no alternatives here–it’s all f’ing spin. You’re Hillary Clinton to his John Bolton. Meanwhile the fundamental underlying great-gaming goes on. Why is Chomsky too “radical” to have a voice, but you can link to these absolute nutters. Why are they better foils for your agenda. Perhaps b/c Chomsky, Zinn, et al are actually far more informed than the both of you. Perhaps b/c they’d eat your ass alive in any debate.
    ~
    F@ck me, it’s 7a.m. in J-town on Sunday, and I need a drink.

  • yutsano

    Have a traditional Japanese breakfast JC: grilled fish, rise, miso soup, and warm sake. Good for the soul that.

  • g_crush

    .
    Steyn’s just another right-wing tool who spins up plausible-sounding pseudo-facts in order to justify his own biases. For example, from the OC Register article:

    Between 1970 and 2000, the developed world declined from just under 30 percent of the global population to just over 20 percent, while the Muslim world increased from 15 percent to 20 percent. And in 2030, it won’t even be possible to re-take that survey, because by that point half the “developed world” will itself be Muslim…

    The idea of a ‘Muslim Baby Boom’ is something Steyn beats like a drum made out of a dead horse. But is it accurate? Not at all, apparently:

    The great sine qua non of Mr. Steyn’s argument is the idea that Muslims have more children than the rest of us. His article is based on a claim he has made repeatedly, including in a bestselling book, that Europe will have a plurality of Muslims, perhaps 40 per cent of the population, by 2020.
    .
    This number appears to have been plucked from space. Here’s the reality, which you can easily look up: Slightly more than 4 per cent of Europe’s population is “Muslim,” as defined by demographers (though about 80 per cent of these people are not religiously observant, so they are better defined as secular citizens who have escaped religious nations).
    .
    It is possible, though not certain, that this number could rise to 6 per cent by 2020. If current immigration and birth rates remain the same, it could even rise to 10 per cent within 100 years.

    The linked Globe and Mail article is a great takedown of Steyn, even though it does laud Steyn for his writing…on musical theatre.
    .
    Point is, whatever the equation is that Steyn concots to support his distaste of my coworker from Pakistan, the variables he uses are faulty in the first place. That’s not intellectual laziness, that’s intellectual dishonesty.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    The cock lobsters IS going bonkers over this Steyn dude.

    He must have said some truth, about something, or anything.

  • jcapan

    BTW, I’d take one Mencken for the entire horde of Joe Kleins. So, his trenchant cynicism isn’t up to describing the times, not when real “lives are at stake”!? Oh, good lord, I seriously have to consider a sabbatical from this joint. B/C it’s so obvious that what protects real lives is work like this:
    ~
    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/13390771/the_low_post_101_ways_to_lie_about_iraq
    ~
    Rest assured that Mencken’s place in history is assured–Joe’s, not so much.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Mark Steyn, white male conservative, is also a musical theater critic/expert? I’m gonna go out on a limb and say he uses the word ‘fagg0t’ a lot, is deeply concerned w/ the ‘homosexual agenda’ and is a frequent visitor of rest areas and airport men’s rooms.

  • donovong

    @cinncinattus etc., etc.: “It is the land of the dumbest white people on this planet, and that includes Albania!”

    Over-generalize much, dickhead? Looks like you are trying to give Steyn a run for his money. I live in the area you are disparaging, and can testify to the fact that there are just as many dumb, racist a$$holes in Indiana, Pennsylvania and California. So, stick that one up yours.

  • oizydoizy

    Ask yourself why the Durand line, which divides Afghanistan and Pakistan, was drawn right down the middle of the Pashtun territorities?

     
    Good question! On also wonders why, in the First Kashmir War of 1947, both Pakistan and India had British military advisors at their disposal.
     
    Kinda makes you think that when the British left a place, they wanted it to fall apart.

  • kathy

    Steyn’s response to Paul Dirks is unbelievably puerile (strike that. believably). At the least, he should have responded to Paul here.
    .
    I do find it hard to believe that any serious person could equate “there are more militant muslims” with “Islam is becoming more miltant.”
    .
    Ironically, in (generally Catholic) Christianity “the Church Militant” refers to all living members of the faith.
    .
    Having endured a lazy media for eight years equating “Christian” with a particularly American version of Evangelicalism I also can’t take seriously anybody who lumps “Muslims” altogether.
    .
    “How do you get to be a language cop?” Steyn must have set about to prove Dirks’ point.

  • stuartzechman

    …the American South…is the land of the dumbest white people on this planet, and that includes Albania! Commenters like Vonda/Hula prove it everyday, right here at Swampland.
    .
    A) That’s a pretty offensive statement, right there. Is there a need to be that casually derogatory of a whole group of people, simply on the basis of their race and geography?
    .
    If that was a joke, then please disregard my criticism (my sense of humor isn’t all there sometimes).
    .
    If not, then change “American South” for any other place, and “white people” for any other ethnic category, and ask yourself if you’d really be comfortable saying that sort of thing to the faces of some individuals you’d just met at a social event, who happened to be of that ethnicity and region you’ve just mass-disparaged. We’re supposed to judge people on the basis of their personal characters –no matter what the stereotype of their group identity– in America, isn’t that what we try to live up to?
    .
    B) I believe that Question Hillary (QH, Obamish, Hulagate, etc.) is from New York, like me, if I’m not mistaken.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Oh, donovong! Your prose is enchanting! Yes, the areas of which you speak contain just as many racist a$$holes in Indiana, Pennsylvania and California. However those states are much more populated so on a per capita basis, the are in which you live contains a much, much higher percentage of racist a$$holes. I see you’ve made no attempt to defend Albanians. Disappointing. I liked the ‘see, they’re just as bad as we are’ argument though.

  • themaverickformerlyknownasbasilbrush

    You do realize that the Durand line was drawn in 1893, between Afghanistan and British India, largely on the basis of the terrain in question? It did adhere to the proper boundaries of the day, although why Joe Klein didn’t bother to check this fact is harder to say. And no-one in the official regimes of Pakistan, Afghanistan or the USA has ever demanded an independent Pashtun state. Nor, for the record, has Joe “Weathervane” Klein. So perhaps we could dispense with the lies and the hypocrisy. Naturally the Pashtuns would like to be a unified people – but why should an old-school American imperialist like Joe Klein ever think about such things?

  • destor23

    Swampland has truly evolved. I never would have imagined when this started and it was “beat up on Joe Klein, all the time” that 2 years later I’d be reading Joe Klein defending one of the commenters here against an NRO attack.

    Or, heck, even an NRO attack against one of the commenters.

    And, heck, we’ve really gotten to know Joe Klein better too, haven’t we? I still disagree with him at times but he’s not who I thought he was when all this began.

  • themaverickformerlyknownasbasilbrush

    Destor, would you like your bridge delivered here or to your Alaskan address? Klein is the same ingratiating, manipulative, chicken-hawk fraud he always was. He’s just attacking Steyn because it’s a convenient way to play to the gallery. Our little Uriah Heep has taken off his neo-con mask and become Honest Joe the Liberal Hawk – again!

  • rose83

    What Kathy said.
    .
    Oh, good lord, I seriously have to consider a sabbatical from this joint. B/C it’s so obvious that what protects real lives is work like this:
    .
    jcapan, you talked me down so I’ll try to talk you down! We need your presence here, and your insistence on recognizing the common principles and interests that characterize elites of both (or neither) major parties. I don’t always agree with you, but I’m still enough of a Nader supporter to appreciate your perspective and understand that it is a necessary one.
    .
    Also thanks for that Taibbi link. I actually recently criticized Taibbi but it is absolutely ridiculous to compare him with Steyn. He is interested in nuance; it’s just that the nuances he acknowledges are inconvenient so followers of the CW tend to ignore them.

  • stuartzechman

    IMO:
    .
    Maybe the problem with Mark Steyn contrasting the “Developed” countries to the “Muslim” countries is that “Muslim” is a euphemism for “fundamentalist”, but either Mark Steyn is so boxed in by his rhetoric that he can’t imagine it, or he’s so comforted by his ideological company that he can’t admit it.
    .
    If the “Developed World” doesn’t have cultural and political defenses against populist outbreaks of fundamentalism period, then the West is f*cked. Unfortunately, that also includes the Christianists right here in the good ol’ USA, and an honest discussion of that would alienate Mark Steyn’s buddies (and publishers).
    .
    It’s strange that Joe Klein can’t make the connection between Steyn’s “Muslim” threat, and the threat of fundamentialism worldwide –after all, that’s really what’s at the heart of extremism, isn’t it?
    .
    Or can’t Joe imagine or admit that fundamentalism –Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc.– is the real threat, even here…?

  • 53_3

    Joe, you’re off target.
    .
    The question should be:
    .
    Are Republicans growing more militant?

  • trifecta55

    It is more militant than say 100 years ago. I wonder what has happened.

  • jcapan

    “jcapan, you talked me down so I’ll try to talk you down!”
    ~
    Well, perhaps less ledge than verge. Like all writing, I cling to the notion that it’s verb/process over noun/product, but I wonder sometimes what some of the saner members of the commentariat hope to achieve here, other than screaming into the abyss and/or bellowing across the sidewalk at their sandwich-boarded doppelgangers. Of course, it’s always nice to be exposed to like-minded souls. But most of us probably get that via family and friends. So it’s surely more than that. I hate to see it reduced to faux outrage. Nothing faux about mine mind you. I don’t see the MSM changing one iota. KT responding, as an example, doesn’t mean her coverage does (or can). I view their engagement with commenters as charity from the wealthy–exploit the workers, then toss them some duckets. So, what’s left–perhaps to reach the fence-riders that might swing by a “straight news” site and be exposed to diff perspectives? Fair enough, I guess.
    ~
    For me, I guess it simply amts. to venting, like our beloved former comrade, HH. God knows the Swamp provides one venue whereby radicals like me can be confident that our slams hit home. Maybe you can’t change the machine, but it’s always satisfying to tell the aristorcracy/courtiers they’re scum.
    ~
    And perhaps I’m still cranky from last night–my wife dragged me to Benjamin Button. Compared to that 3-hour assault on the senses, even Joe seems a salve. As if I needed more evidence that the Oscars are a joke. What the F was Fincher thinking.

  • flagrantenigma

    jcapan, I suspect that Fincher was thinking about the er.. benjamins?

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    jcapan, what was your prob w/ B Button? I thought it was harmless enough and better than most of the trip out there. If you’re disappointed w/ Fincher, I believe he’s wrapping up Arthur C Clarke’s ‘Rendevous with Rama’.
    .
    Destor, it’s the same Klein(albeit w/ a greater recognition of the obvious than before), but he’s been attacked by the far right and his ego demands retribution…don’t confuse it with his somehow having an epiphany. All that Reagan stuff is hard wired in his brain. I also think there’s a healthy dose of his getting tired of having his @ss handed to him by the likes of Greenwald and arguing w/ the likes of Commentary magazine and Steyn really is like shooting fish in a barrel and hence a boost to his ego.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “…plausible-sounding pseudo-facts…”

    STOP PICKING ON BLAGO & BURRIS.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Oops, Rama fell through this fall:
    http://www.slashfilm.com/2008/10/13/david-finchers-rendezvous-with-rama-is-not-happening/
    .
    …at least that Fight Club musical isn’t happening either, though watching Broadway dancers trying to interpret NIN music would have been interesting.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “I believe that Question Hillary (QH, Obamish, Hulagate, etc.) is from New York, like me, if I’m not mistaken.”

    YOU BETCHA.

    But we don’t miss the snow and toll roads.

    Now where did I put that new copy of The Clixon Quarterly…

  • apollodorus

    Is colonialism so bad? Look at the most civilized and advanced nations or parts of nations in the non-Western world: India, Hong Kong, Singapore… all “victims” of Western imperialism. Looks like it did more good than harm.

    -neo-colonialist

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    For the record, I proposed here about a year or so back that we have a Swampslackers Meet Up someplace central, on the Time-CNN-Jazeera dime, so that you myriad mishmash of quavering lefty kooks could get your sniff of me and what else Roger Ailes you.

    No takers, of course.

    I even suggested party hats with KT and Sully and Wankette popping out semi-nude from a giant hemp cake. And then a big old 10 Way on M Street up a flight ala Lowell George Allah rest his fat toes.

    Still no joy.

    There are more real deal men in Minnetonka than in the D.C. Moobway, apparently.

  • flagrantenigma

    Hulagate, what is your bizarre fascination with real men? And fat toes? Have you been providing gratification for Rushbo’s pink wrigglies again?

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “…what is your bizarre fascination with real men…”

    The rare Blue State kind, or the AWOL media kind?

    Please specify.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090222/ap_on_re_us/ny_post_cartoon

    The NAACP wants to fire some media people for a cartoon mocking Obama’s bogus stimulus debacle?

    Where were these STUPID people when Al Franken and Bill Maher were openly and daily making their “careers” cracking wise on Letterman and cable about Bush and Cheney getting removed by force?

    Hello?

    Anyone homer?

    The NY Post cartoon was in poor taste, perhaps, over the sudden death of a madly domesticated metrosexual monkey — and even with that, most reasonable people would not think it an invitation to violence against a HUMAN. Not even close.

    In an info-world filled with real threats far and wide against the prior admin, it really takes a liberal KOOK to commit to peace by tearing down the open press.

    What a legacy.

  • rose83

    Of course, it’s always nice to be exposed to like-minded souls. But most of us probably get that via family and friends. So it’s surely more than that. I hate to see it reduced to faux outrage. Nothing faux about mine mind you. I don’t see the MSM changing one iota. KT responding, as an example, doesn’t mean her coverage does (or can). I view their engagement with commenters as charity from the wealthy–exploit the workers, then toss them some duckets. So, what’s left–perhaps to reach the fence-riders that might swing by a “straight news” site and be exposed to diff perspectives? Fair enough, I guess.
    .
    jcapan, I realized that the challenging discussions and information sharing on Swampland make me better informed and a more rigorous thinker. I’m not here to improve the MSM; I may actually have a miniscule positive impact but if so that’s a bonus. But I hope that through our posts Swampland commenters create a kind of broad based and wide-ranging intellectual network that enhances our individual efforts to think and act productively. (I’d say that KT is part of that network) And I could not find such a diverse range of intelligent and politically informed people in my own non-virtual community.
    .
    And I’m glad that I avoided Benjamin Button. I just couldn’t stand the trailer… I still can’t believe that Doubt wasn’t nominated.
    .
    Or can’t Joe imagine or admit that fundamentalism –Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc.– is the real threat, even here…?
    .
    stuart, I’d add other non-religious types of fundamentalism: economic and masculine/military in particular.

  • bq45

    Freedom of Expression for the little man or the power elite

    In this ongoing heated debate in the West and particularly in Denmark, relating to unlimited and unrestrained Freedom of Expression – inflammatory or purposeful – two very important points are being over looked.

    In no country in the world, freedom of expression is total or absolute. There are judicial limitations, moral constrained and even constitutional limits. In Denmark which under the present right wing government has proclaimed itself as the defender in chief of total freedom of expression, the constitution clearly talks about freedom of expression under responsibility. There are laws in the country against dishonouring an individual and the royal household, make blasphemous speeches against Christianity, racist, anti-semitism and anti-homosexual statements. Islam is not covered in this protection. Is it by coincidence or on purpose? Take a pick!
    Freedom of Expression was made the central tenant of human rights in Europe to give the citizens the right to criticise the government, politicians and the power elite and not the other way around. It was never meant to give the journalists a cart blanche to tell lies, insult religions or sow the seeds of disharmony in the society. Media has a central role to inform the public and not misinform, write about factual stories and not invent these, criticise the misuse of power and not colude with the elité to suppress the truth.

    As long as people do not make a distinction between genuine criticism of an individual action, a group ideology or even a religious dogma to prevent oppression on the one hand and insulting, degrading and humiliating on purpose, an entire religion, its followers and their holy scripture under the false guise of freedom of expression, a society like Denmark, however democratic it may claim to be, will always remain uncivilised. A country which does not extend legal, moral and human rights protection to its ethnic and religious minorities can never create an inclusive society.

    As far as my freedom of expression is concerned, I have never used it to insult anyone but only to take part in discussions as a law abiding citizen. Gert Wilders and Pia Kjærsgaards of this world use their political platform not to criticise Islam, as they claim but to insult, propagate hate and create conflict. My criticism is never of Christianity, Jesus, Danes or Denmark but of the establishment. I use my pen and lips to better the situation of the minorities and build bridges while Danish Peoples Party uses its power to advance an agenda, a White, Christian Denmark. You deicide who should be supported.

    Bashy Quraishy
    Chair – ENAR Advisory Council-Brussels
    Chair – Jewish Muslim Platform-Brussels
    Mobile. 0045 40154771. 
    Tel&Fax. 0045 38881977
    http://www.bashy.dk

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “A country which does not extend legal, moral and human rights protection to its ethnic and religious minorities can never create an inclusive society.”

    How does a DEATH CULT qualify for any such protection?

  • sacredh

    I don’t think Islam is becoming more militant, I think the militant faction within Islam is becoming more militant. I also think there are paralles within our own country. We’re moving more towards the center and possibly center left. The militant conservative faction in the Muslim world and the conservative evangelical faction in our counrty see their power and influence ebbing and it scares the crap out of them. Nobody wants to watch from the sidelines while they become increasingly irrelevant. Neither are going down without a fight. IMHO, the actions of both only hasten what they seek to avoid. Unfortunately, we all pay the price for their actions.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    Don’t many of the experts estimate there are only about 150 to 200 actual members of Al-Qaeda, none of whom are in any of the cities in Iraq or Afghanistan. They are in that area that not even the Red Army could tame.

  • stuartzechman

    Rose:
    .
    What do you mean by the expressions “economic and masculine/military” fundamentalism?

  • olrtex

    So, Klein takes on Steyn. I’m not sure whether that’s a Lilliputian or a Yahoo taking on Gulliver. Maybe a bit of both. Still, it’s hard not to feel a little sorry for Klein in that match-up.

  • newfloridian

    hulagate: Just when you start to make sense you take a turn toward ????. If I could just make out what your point is.. sniff of me, giant hemp cake, fat toes???? The New York connection might explain some of it, but then again most New Yorkers are fairly sane, perhaps a bit too pushy and God!… way too angry… but sane none the less. Are you using Swampland to push out coded messages with the nonsense postings? It’s all too weird. We all are treating hulagate as some sort of right wing moron, wouldn’t it be ironic if he’s actually Osama Bin Laden or some terrorist henchman using Time’s Swampland to communicate with sleeper cells, right on an Islamic subject blog post?

  • sacredh

    Derek: I think the numbers are higher but their tactics are becoming even more deadly as their numbers shrink. Suicide bombers are effective because an individual can commit an act that is so disproportionate to the cost involved in commiting the act. It took only Timothy McVeigh to commit the worst domestic terrorist act in our country’s history. Even just a few hundred Al-Queda members can influence events to the point where we have to spend hundreds of billions to combat them. You are so right about about the area of Afghanistan where they are hiding. The government of Afghanistan has no control in that area and there are countless places for them to hide in. It’s a logistical nightmare. We can send thousands of troops into the area and all they have to is sneak into Pakistan until we leave and then return when we leave.

  • newfloridian

    Another weird thought, Someone report hulagate to the Department of Homeland Security. If’s he’s just some right wing moron spouting incoherant garbage instead of a terrorist messenger DHS probably won’t figure it out until he’s spent hours and hours being interrogated. Imagine right wing thugs interrogating another right wing thug for hours thinking he’s some sort of terrorist. Warms the cockles of a liberal’s heart! Wonder if he’d come out a liberal, or just thank his handlers for the interrogation?

  • sacredh

    newfloridian: Anything’s possible I suppose, but the “off the meds” theory still seems more plausible. I’m more leary of our own wingnuts in this country than I am of the terrorists.

  • sacredh

    Newfloridian: Here’s another thought. Hulagate is a republican member of congress. Waterboarding as a form of foreplay?

  • newfloridian

    sacredh: Off the meds is likely probability, but one can wonder as the posts get really bizarre in an organized sort of way.

    I am of the opinion that Al Qaeda’s numbers have always been relatively small and their true threat to America after the initial pounding is most likely quite small. They got off a lucky hit on 9/11, took money, planning and an incompetant American administration to achieve that result, but it was still rather lucky. There were just so many little things that went in their favor on that day and during the run up to that event. The flying lessons, the practice runs, the odd behavior…. anything could have derailed them. We were simply asleep at the wheel.

    I am beginning to believe the Taliban influence in Pakistan and not Al Qaeda is the greater threat. Al Qaeda as an active threat is pretty much over. What is left of them is fragmented and probably has minimal funds to carry out terrorist activities, if not actually on the run from Taliban agents. It’s the Taliban and Pakistani influences that are more dangerous. They no longer need Bin Laden and his organization. In fact the India operation is probably a Taliban Pakistani operation for which they are all too happy to let Al Qaeda take the blame. The Al Qaeda name has probably been assumed by the Taliban and Pakistani organizations to use as a cover for their own activities. If they keep America looking for the mythical Al Qaeda, they can continue to build their own terrorist organization and plan more Western hits.

  • sacredh

    I worry a little more about their funding. I’ve read and also think that Al-Queda/Taliban groups are getting money from some of the Arab governments in return for not conducting attacks on their soil. I agree that they are fragmented, but as I posted before, it really only takes a couple members and limited funds to execute a successful attack. One thing that really bothers me is the similarity between now with us spending huge amounts of money that we don’t have to fight terroriism and the old Soviet Union spending it’s way into bankruptcy trying to keep up with the west during the arms race. I hate to think that a small disorganized group of terrorists could accomplish the same thing on the cheap.

  • stuartzechman

    newfloridian:
    .
    Question Hillary isn’t a moron, he’s different. Fundamentally different.
    .
    Alright, QH is a moron about some things…OK, a lot of things, but so are we all.
    .
    Imagine that you were speaking to a person who suddenly materialized before you from feudal Japan…
    .
    Imagine that you were speaking to someone who didn’t have any of the cultural context or information that you take for granted, someone for whom the meaning of everyday events was completely different from what you understood things to be about.
    .
    QH has some really wrong ideas, but he’s not a moron at all.
    .
    He’s not a Nazi, and he’s not a Stalinist, and he’s not a Maoist, and he’s not a jihadi, and he’s not an ultra-orthodox Israeli settler, and he’s not a lunatic…he’s just very, very wrong.
    .
    If lots and lots of people get brain-fever, and they start subscribing to QH’s ideas absolutely and en masse, then we’ll have a Rwandan situation, for sure. QH’s ideas are really dangerous when put into practice. QH’s ideas are what have f*cked the country for the past decade or more.
    .
    That said, if you voted for Barack Obama, and were inspired in the slightest by what his impractical ideas are, then you’d have to admit that Barack Obama wants you to listen to QH, understand QH, and then argue with QH like he’s a human being, and without calling him a moron.
    .
    IMO, of course…

  • sacredh

    stuartzechman: I’d argue with you, but I have a close friend with a near genius IQ that sounds almost like hulagate without the stream of consciousness thing thrown in. I’ve been arguing with him for years but he’s so convinced that he’s right that he’ll only accept sources that echo his own opinions. Everyone and everything else is just wrong. He can offer convincing arguments that sound reasonable, but they’re built on a house of cards that can’t take the slightest breeze or else they’ll tumble. Even if I can convince him that one of his basic premises is wrong, he’ll just dig and dig until he finds an alternate that convinces him that he was right all along. It never ends. He couldn’t be more wrong, but he’s certainly not a moron. Obama’s election has him in a near panic. He’s convinced the US is finished.

  • mmchampion

    sz, I completely agree with your assessment of QH/Hulagate/etc.
    .
    Even in the midst of his rants, if you ask him a direct question and ask for information in a serious way, he provides a thoughtful answer. Unfortunately, he will (sometimes) revert to ranting and hurts his case. He has proven himself to be no moron, just a little too prone to histrionics.
    .
    Interestingly enough, he mentioned a while back that he (unlike the true lunatic Limbaugh) that he doesn’t wish to see Obama fail, he just thinks it’s inevitable. I think he cares very much for this country and pines away for Reagan, but thinks liberals are too weak.
    .
    I think he’s way off base, but he does bring something to the table (when he isn’t ranting.) I’d never want to see him in power, but there’s Econ 101 at work here – we shift from one extreme to another and the laws of ‘even-tude’ bring things back to the middle.

  • jcapan

    I have to admit that Hula’s Swamp-social sounds pretty amusing.
    ~
    Rose: Doubt does indeed sound excellent. Or, anything with PSH–I’m still trying to get my head around his turn in Before the Devil… Simply-f@cking-brilliant. My mom also mentioned Doubt this a.m. but when I checked IMDB, I couldn’t find a release date for J. Some films open here simultaneously, some like Into the Wild arrive a year later. Have to wait until like Nov. for The Reader.

  • mmchampion

    The Swamp-social does sound pretty fun – it’d be just like having dinner with my parents back in the 70′s and 80′s.

  • rose83

    What do you mean by the expressions “economic and masculine/military” fundamentalism?
    .
    Well, when I hear about religious fundamentalism I think of selective and literal interpretation of precepts. (Thou shalt not kill and other principles are often ignored; it’s all selective) I think the same is true of certain economic belief systems. It’s not necessarily about strict laissez-faire capitalism, but doesn’t the fear of bank nationalization for example resemble the fear of marriage equality in its fierce attachment to an unproductive literal interpretation of a principle? The principles are different – government ownership of the economy is bad vs. marriage is for maintaining heterosexual hegemony – but they are interpreted in a similar literal and uncritical way. Similarly, the notion that committing thousands of soldiers and billions of dollars to ill-defined military efforts that the US is not well suited to undertake is reasonable if not admirable, is contrasted by a dismissal of, say, not unconditionally supporting everything Israel does. That contrast seems to be motivated by a fundamentalist/extremist attachment to something, some kind of orthodoxy.
    .
    jcapan, yes Doubt was much faster and wittier than I thought it would be from reading reviews and watching the trailer, but it was also challenging and smart.

  • cfukara

    rose83 Says:
    “economic and masculine/military” fundamentalism
    Thanks rosie.
    It is a joy when I look at life or words from a different perspective.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Of course, our own leading ACORN militant gets an hour of prime Time this Tuesday night.

    So they have that to deal with.

    I understand that the Hawaiia-Indonesia delegation will be handing out discount coupons for 57 Flavors in his honor.

  • stuartzechman

    Thanks for your response, Rose.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “We all are treating hulagate as some sort of right wing moron, wouldn’t it be ironic if he’s actually Osama Bin Laden or some terrorist henchman using Time’s Swampland to communicate with sleeper cells, right on an Islamic subject blog post?”

    Oh good grape.

    You know we can’t afford EU encryption on Medicrap.

    Besides, everyone knows that Osama has CNN on satellite.

    He loves Letterman, apparently.

    BTW, is Bill Moyers Junior out of rehab yet?

    I hear they’ll need some more humus panty shields in Waziristan later this month.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “Another weird thought, Someone report hulagate to the Department of Homeland Security…”

    I’ll report myself.

    Since I’ve worked with them.

    Would you like a souvenir post card from St. Paul?

    I tried to chat up Klein in the RiverCentre lobby but he was busy being wrong about peace with some of the local media mutts.

    A crowd of 2, as I recall.

    But thanks for playing PARANOID IN THE PUBLIC LIEBERRY.

    Next!

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    I never did get around to telling all the funny stories from the RNC (that were publicly available).

    Maybe a book deal?

    Better be anonymous about IS, to protect the infidels, er, innocents in the press section and/or kitchen bypass ramp.

    I’m thinking an October 2012 release date…

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    I like to think of Swampcranks as my home version of the Combined Federal Champagne.

    With fewer forced union dues.

  • rose83

    Thanks for your response, Rose.
    .
    stuart, I hope you could make some sense of it. I have a fever so eloquence seems very far away.
    .
    cfukara, thanks.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Good news on the very late breaking Obama admin slots:

    Commerce will be getting Bill Ayers.

    A step up from Richie Richardson, at least.

    Ayers being well vetted, to date.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    I am sorry but a moron who every once in awhile talks with some sense is still a moron in my book. Nobody could fake the ass hattery that hula pulls off. I have actually tried to troll at townhall before and its not as easy as it looks if you aren’t really bat sh*t crazy. Hula comes up with orignal wingnut talking points over and over again and thats authentic bat sh*t crazy folks. It aint a game.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “Even just a few hundred Al-Queda members can influence events to the point where we have to spend hundreds of billions to combat them.”

    Yes, that would be where the TERRORISM part kicks in.

    So endeth the lesson for today.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    stuartzechman
    … … …

    In Stewie’s limited warranty defense, I think his being accused here from Time to Time of being Klein — in a less wordy recline — is a bit of a missed opportunity to expose his true identity:

    Oprah.

    I’ll take a Pontiac Vibe 4WD in silver, thanks.

    Hopefully some still in stock before the Chapter 11 deal on Wednesday.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    In an interview with the BBC’s World Today programme he said that regardless of what terrorism suspects had done, the US still needed “to afford them some sense of due process.”
    .
    “It has taken a while for us to get to that point but we are certainly there now,” he said.
    .
    He added that there was now a consensus in the US and beyond that water-boarding – a harsh interrogation technique that simulates drowning – was torture, saying there had been no allegations of its use since 2003.

    .
    Just FYI, that’s former head of Homeland Security Tom Ridge talking.
    .
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7903516.stm

  • jcapan

    Not sure if this would make Barack the communicator proud, but in lieu of “moron,” perhaps this is a better description of QH’s condition:
    ~
    Wiki: Savant syndrome—sometimes abbreviated as savantism—is not a recognized medical diagnosis, but researcher Darold Treffert defines it as a rare condition in which persons with developmental disorders (including autism spectrum disorders) have one or more areas of expertise, ability or brilliance that are in contrast with the individual’s overall limitations.[1] Treffert says the condition can be genetic, but can also be acquired,[1] and coexists with other developmental disabilities “such as mental retardation or brain injury or disease that occurs before (pre-natal) during (peri-natal) or after birth (post-natal), or even later in childhood or adult life.”[1]
    ~
    … or to return to the film subthread–he’s like that brilliant madman in Revolutionary Road. In other words, the perfect dinner guest.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    sgwhiteinfla

    … … …

    They’re POWs, and should remain in the clink until we’re through going after their cohorts.

    Then they can sue for redress of grievances at The Hague or anywhere else the EU wants them to reside in the open.

    Or IS your town now volunteering to house them?

    Maybe they can add a theme section at Disney World…

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    hula
    .
    We have plenty of supermax prisons here buddy that already hold the worst of the worst. I don’t have any problem with them sending the detainees here because unlike you I am not afraid of my own shadow. Only cowards like you are scared to have prisoners housed in a prison. But I am sure you are the worlds biggest cheerleader when it comes to torture right hula?
    .
    dumb b*tch

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    jcapan

    Nah.

    I’m just a deluded narcissist waiting on the next cheap flight.

    Never mind the fact that even Obama’s DNC clunkers have put at least half of my long ago written suggestions into his various programs, to date.

    Problem is he’s already water boarded them down into submission, with tons of excess that basically supersedes whatever little good he could have achieved, had he had the discipline to limit his tac to a timely, necessary, and brief injection of orderly federal action. Cripes, he hasn’t put enough people in Treasury to count the cars on PA Avenue, much less corral the crooks in the investment houses and condo flipping shops.

    Yes folks, the FDR years too were a freakin MESS.

    Unemployment was almost 20% after 7 years of his screwing around with everything from union access to protectionist measures up the wazoo to outright business bashing to make work that only an infected river beaver could love.

    Had Hitler not invaded France, FDR’d have gone down as the WORST financial exec in national history (he had his Mama’s money, of course), and in any event was the biggest party flak to date. If not the biggest philanderer.

    The dems tried to emulate his race baiting BS with LBJ and Clinton (our first two black presidents), but hopefully those days are the crest of the worst and we’re not about to hand somebody like Eric WHAT PARDONS Holder the reigns of law enforcement…

    Whoops!

    Spoke too soon.

    And you thought cop troop morale in 1974 was bad.

    I’m just a nut though.

    Don’t mind me.

    Out of the loop.

    No overriding legal authority.

    No new taxes…

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    sgwhiteinfla
    … … …

    Sweet jeezes liberals are dumb mo-fos:

    The t-head prisoners, if on our domestic soil, would be a renewed cause for TARGETING by their Al Queda franchisees, get it?

    And an expensive, illogical pain in the azz.

    But if Uncle Teddy or Leahy really want them in THEIR windmill views, by all means go for it.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Clarification: Jimmy Carter was not one of the liberal black presidents, contrary to some media reports.

    He was our first Cuban president.

    And a female one at that.

    Thank You.

  • stuartzechman

    QH:
    .
    Did you just call me Oprah?
    .
    Like when the audience on Springer chants “Go to Oprah! Go to Oprah!”?
    .
    F*cker.

  • stuartzechman

    LOL

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    hula
    .
    Yeah because they have been targeting the sh*t out of the supermax in Colorado that holds Padilla and other al qaeda terrorits right? Coward.

  • Cliff

    I think me and sg are on the same page about hulagate.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “Yeah because they have been targeting the sh*t out of the supermax in Colorado that holds Padilla and other al qaeda terrorits right? Coward.”

    Look Bozo.

    Me & mine have been a hell of lot closer to the fray (foreign and domestic), as a lifestyle and not just a path to Pell Granthood, than you’ll EVER be.

    Enough about me. I’m not Klein, after all.

    There remains a vast shortage of Republicans in government, at every level, elected and appointed, in every venue, in every specialty — because most of us tend to tire pretty quickly of the burrocrap BS that some of you think constitutes full employment programming for the otherwise marginally educated.

    Most of the people in my world are masters and doctorate level types that worked for the feds for awhile (most over 20 years, some over 30, some the minimum) and none of them think we’re moving on all cylinders after the election. Not even close.

    Obama promised transparency, clairvoyancy, and no conspiracy.

    We’ve already seen the largest spending spree in our nation’s history, guaranteed tax increases for the next 10 years at least, a promise to crack down on taxpayers at all levels with an expanded if messy IRS, meddling in medical choices, abortion exports, terrorist imports, limo liberal lobbyists deluxe, pre-emptive gutting of DOD as the Reds increase military outlays and Pakistan implodes — and he ISn’t even wet behind his gigantic ears yet!

    So yes, I’m a tad concerned for the well being of our once proud nation under Obama’s Brother Jones of a regime change.

    The Cult can keep blaming Bush I suppose — but at some point Mr. Obama needs to own the office he chose to buy, er, seek. Nobody said it was going to be easy, cleaning up after Carter and Clinton. Bush had 8 years and even that wasn’t long enough to fix things.

    Munich was in 1972.

    What year was Obama suckled, and could he find Germany on a map without a hand-hold from Holbrooke or Halfbright or one of the other geniuses of the vital Balkans?

    I look forward to a clear and concise speech on Tuesday.

    I won’t hear one, but I’ll look forward to it.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    hula you don’t have a clue what I have been close to and you are still a coward. Grow a spine and quit being scared of your own shadow, b*tch.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    sgwhiteinfla

    … … …

    “…you don’t have a clue what I have been close to…”

    I’m guessing rehab, or the closest rest area.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “Did you just call me Oprah?”

    Well I did.

    You go girl!

  • flagrantenigma

    I see why people are trying to make Hulahoop/Fruitloop into some sort of idiot savant – but I have trouble seeing the savant part of the package. Still, he does have his own idiolect, which argues that somewhere in there a human mind is attempting communication.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “In other words, the perfect dinner guest.”

    I’ll take the lamb kabobs, spinach salad with creamy French dressing, a Creamsicle, and a Sprite.

    You know.

    What Zech eats.

  • flagrantenigma

    The difference being that SZ uses a knife and fork, while Hula dines off the floor.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    I recognize that there are some number of doctoral thesis candidates frequenting the Time alley, testing their content and footnotes and introspection and such quibblings. Huz-zaw for projections re-posted from Hoofy.

    I haven’t listened to Limbaugh since about 1990, don’t need to. I’m sure what he says is true, just as I’m sure Newt is working the same line of logic that drives liberals absolutely bonkers. Truth will do that.

    If I do read, I read Coulter’s column every few months but that’s about it. Well, that and Maxim. I love my hair care updates.

    Which reminds me of a joke and then I’m outta here…

    … …

    The 2nd grade teacher asks Bobby, “Bobby, what would you like for Christmas?”

    Bobby says, “For Christmas, I’d like some Tampex.”

    “You’d like some Tampex, for Christmas? Do you even know what they are?”

    “No, I don’t exactly, but I do know I want them.”

    “And why is that, exactly, Bobby?”

    “Well, if you have Tampex, then you get to go water skiing, and scuba diving, and horse back riding, and kite flying…”

    … …

    Anyone awake in Fairfax yet?

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg
  • jcapan

    OK, first the Oprah hit, then this:
    ~
    “In other words, the perfect dinner guest.”
    ~
    I’ll take the lamb kabobs, spinach salad with creamy French dressing, a Creamsicle, and a Sprite.
    ~
    You know.
    ~
    What Zech eats.
    ~
    Priceless. We simply have to keep this guy around–too freakin’ funny. I don’t know where King Lear is but we’ve got us a fool.

  • newfloridian

    Congratulatons Swamplanders You kept hulagate responding until 3:16am. Please note the time frame between 2:45 his second to last post and the 3:16 post. That means he spent a half hour in the middle of the night waiting for repsonses and only one.. a good one came down the pike. Salivating, slobbering and drooling waiting for another retort to his moronoic posts. Yes I agree with sqwhiteinfla, you can have moments of clarity, make sense and still be a moron. Just because the light comes on for a moment doesn’t mean an intelligent idea will appear.

    The good news… he is now asleep and can’t be out pulling wings off of butterflys, shoving little old ladies out of line, etc. For a few hours the world is a better place until he returns from his slumber.

  • plukasiak

    I am beginning to believe the Taliban influence in Pakistan and not Al Qaeda is the greater threat
    _
    neither is a real threat.
    _
    The notion that the Taliban will somehow take over Pakistan is non-sensical in the extreme. Neither the Pakistani military nor the ISI (let alone the Pakistani political establishment) has any interest in allowing Pakistan to be run by the Taliban — its just that the priorities of Pakistan make it far for sensible for that nation to focus its efforts elsewhere.
    _
    The population of the Swat district was (in 1998) less than 1.3 million — less that 1% of Pakistan’s 1998 population of over 132 million. And if/when the Taliban engages in violence elsewhere in Pakistan, the reaction will be swift and uncompromising.
    _

  • sevenoaks07

    pluk: I agree. It may be worth recalling that Swat was included or “forced” to enter into the new Pakistan nation against the wishes of those who “governed” that territory. The British allowed them to maintain their tribal laws and customs and manage local government. New Delhi was far away. Pakistan’s successive governments have let that practice continue. I make no judgement about how the “Swatians” apply their customary laws under Sharia. I have seen practices which offend me e.g. in the way women and girls are treated. But I don’t live in “Swatistan”. So I take long distance assessment and snap judgements from fellows like Mark Steyn as so much wind. Who exactly reads Steyn and acts on his ramblings?

  • Amrita

    Why did the Brits draw the Durand line where they did? Because they had no fricking clue who or what they were dealing with, refused to listen to the few officers who did know what was going on, and it made sense for them at the time.

    Same goes for the Radcliffe line, which has the added bonus of being drawn up in extreme haste by a man who’d never been to the subcontinent at all.

  • stuartzechman

    Oregon JC:
    .
    I won’t try to talk you down; I’ll let ex-journalist Robert Niles explain what we’re doing here at Swampland.

  • flagrantenigma

    Amrita, I don’t suppose you’d like to offer some evidence, rather than bleating out politically correct and content-free slogans?

  • bill45

    “As a Jew, I’m pretty sure I would have fared better in the Ottoman than the Holy Roman Empire….” But that’s not the point,is it, Joe? The point is how you would fare as a Jew under any Islamo-centric government today. Ask Danny Pearl his opinion on that. Or go to Iran and ask Aiamyourdinnerjacket.

  • sevenoaks07

    flagrantenigma: apropos Amrita. Both the India Office Files and the Colonial Office Files(available at the Public Record Office in Kew, London) and in their counterpart offices in Paris are replete with discussions about the way colonial boundaries were drawn. There is ample documentation on how African colonial boundaries between British and French Africa were drawn splitting communities and families who happened to live on opposites of the Niger River.

    It will take time and I can find the file references for you. British and French civil servants did ask serious questions about the way boundary lines were drawn.

  • shepherdwong

    “Is there a need to be that casually derogatory of a whole group of people, simply on the basis of their race and geography?”
    .
    From what I’ve read, I’d lay odds he was disparaging their thinking and voting choices, not their race or geography. (How do you disparage someone’s geography, anyway?).
    .
    Look, whether hulagate or red staters, we’re not talking about lack of intelligence we’re talking about closely held belief, which has a long and storied history among the highly intelligent and even the quite knowledgeable. If you want to look at what separates mostly lucid progressives with mostly deluded “conservatives” it has to do with how well they can use the critical thinking skills that lead to understanding. That’s what we’re talking about, the ability to use reason and logic to put together the things we learn in such a way that we achieve a better, more accurate view of the world. It requires: a) a strong desire to know the truth of things, b) the ability to think rationally and c) a self-secure personality.
    .
    I’ve come to the conclusion that this combination of attributes is actually pretty rare. The reason I came to support Obama is because I think he has them all (Bush was missing both a and c, Clinton just c). The important thing to remember about everyone else is: belief trumps knowledge and emotion trumps rationality. Intelligence, raw knowledge and “character” really aren’t at issue.

  • flagrantenigma

    Shepherdwong – I think we are in agreement that more awareness of these issues would benefit everyone – from Joe Klein to Amrita. I don’t want to defend colonialism, but I also deeply dislike the recent tendency that insists that everything done by colonial powers was bad or failed to consider local needs/boundaries/feelings. Equally, it’s profoundly foolish to assume that India/Pakistan/Afghanistan etc can blame their current state on the British, who handed over power 60 years ago. At some point, the subcontinent has to realize that this sort of moral blackmail is no better than a figleaf for a failure to manage its own affairs.

  • sevenoaks07

    flagrantenigma to sheperdwong” You are on point. It is easy to show a history of incompetence and corruption in many countries which emerged from their colonial past. So blaming the Brits, the French or the Belgians worked for a while but no more. Still, Mugabe of Zimbabwe bangs his anti- British drum so successfully that he has managed to intimidate South Africa. What seems to be missed in the discussions about Swat and the Tribal areas is that Pakistan exercised the rights of administration and left local government severely alone. There in not one governing entity in Pakistan. Look at our own complex model of local, state and federal government and the problems we have.

    Of course, Steyn plays the same game: banging the anti-Islamic drum.

  • themaverickformerlyknownasbasilbrush

    The major problem with calling all of Islam “militant” or condemning all Muslims as terrorists is not simply the injustice and dishonesty of doing so, but the fact that it pushed people into the arms of the radical Wahhabi and Salafi fanatics. After all, if you are told that you and your faith are evil often enough, you might as well join your co-religionists.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    “…That’s what we’re talking about, the ability to use reason and logic…”

    No, you’re talking about which memo from DNC HQ gets picked up by NPR as the day’s opening story.

    We’re not living in a vacuum tube, after Oprah.

  • jcapan

    P-luk: Bingo. Again, a few of us circle back to the nagging realities and duplicitous motivations involved. Your population figures put things into perspective–it’d be like China invading the US to free Americans from the KKK/other supremacist gangs. OK City vs. 911–questions only of degree. The huge variation in response is telling.
    ~
    Stu: Thanks for the article. Intriguing. Might provide answers/rationale for what you do. Not sure it resonates for me. Two immediate thoughts though: his idea of community formulation reminds me of churches or worshipping communities–seeking out like-minded indiv’s. How is that diff than Fox News? And I like his farm system analogy. I’ve always wondered what happened to the 4th estate–turns out it became the Yankees.

  • shaldi

    I usually could care less what a revisionist hack like Joe Klein thinks or writes, nor what the syncophantic messages posted to the message board of the discredited liberal rag that is Time say, written for the most part by people who hunched over a keyboard in their parent’s basement.

    Joe Klein is a fool and manages to mangle history and insult the greatest human of the last 500 years, all in one fell swoop. No wonder Time and its minions are the laughingstock of that laughingstock of all professions, “journalism.”

    Churchill is no longer a great statesman, adventurer, painter, writer, orator, soldier, thinker, inventor or liberator; he is a “stone racist.”

    Good ole Joe then goes on to bask in the love he would have received from ancient Islamic societies as a contrast to the bruatl treatment he would have received by the Christian contemporaries.

    Mr. Klein then goes on to describe Iraq as a success…gee, like the rest of us have not known that for years, no thanks to TIME and its ilk.

    What a putz!

    And his defenders are not much better. These mindless, effete intellectuals stroke their chins, furrow their brows and huff that they are offended or put off by civil disagreement with their enlightened selves. SGWHITEINFLA reminds us, yet again…yawn, of the Golden Age of Islam, using those much-loved Islamic verbs of the past tense such as were, were at one time, lived, respected and dared as proof that we and our society are not better than the now revered “other.” Hey SG, you may want to see if you can update your multicultural love letter to Islam to include some reference to something more recent than the Dark Ages…they were, after all, dark ages.

    Everyone here is offended or put off or deeply hurt or holds misgivings; Have you folks forgotten the Western tradition? About everthing? Not to call names, but you are, for the most part, multiculturalist pansies.

    Buck up gents! A storm is brewing and it may require you all to act like men; let us hope you have not forgotten what that means.

    As Winston said, “Arm yourselves and be men of valor.”

    Or you can just hide in your parent’s basement. And please let Joe in when he knocks because he will need somewhere to go and someone to tell him how smart and how empathetic he is.

    Gotta validate those feelings, no matter what.

  • shaldi

    I apologize for the typos in my last post as I realize how irritating such things are.

    And I forgot to add that Mark Steyn is a man of courage and a very sound and engrossing writer and thinker, unlike Joe Klein.

    Joe Klein and his ilk are the Walter Durantys of this age.

  • btgiv

    O.K., so Klein bashes Steyn for supposedly offering a non-response response, but then does the same thing himself. Steyn says there are no Muslim nations that can be called developed, and Klein’s response is to cite the Ottoman Empire and other long-gone civilizations. What the hell?

    Following up on that blatant non sequitur, Klein then resorts to ad hominem blather, not having anything else to offer. How typical.

    But Klein’s bottom line remains this howler of a statement:

    “Make no mistake: wherever they’ve been given the free choice, Muslims have rejected extremism more often than not in the past few years.”

    Seriously? All over Europe and Canada, second- and third-generation Muslim youth who were raised and educated as Europeans and have the freedom to choose whatever they want are rejecting moderation in favor of Jihad. In nations such as Nigeria, Indonesia, and India, radical Islam is asserting itself and bring death at every turn. These are the facts, and insulting Steyn won’t change them.

  • Ike Jakson

    With all the mudslinging in the article and in the comments I don’t know how anyone can talk about a United America. This is more venomous than War.

    Seems to me Mark Steyn has a point and I suggest Time Senior Writer Joe Klein should obtain the President’s view on the matter. They are very close and all he has to ask is: Mr. President, seeing as you wish to escalate the War in Afghanistan with a huge surge, please give us your viewpoint on the state of Islam in World Affairs.

    I rest my case.

  • http://www.drasties.com/?p=8284 Drasties – Dutch on the World – World on the Dutch

    [...] These days Wilders, 45, charismatic, shock-haired and articulate, warns of a different sort of conflict between Dutch Muslims and the rest of his country’s citizens. Many of his arguments begin with the events of Sept. 11, 2001, and the ensuing “war on terror,” which have helped create a toxic alchemy that has given a new focus to far-right politics in the Netherlands and elsewhere. (Read: “Is Islam Growing More Militant?”) [...]

  • dbentley1267

    You know it is amazig at how ‘fast asleep’ the west has become. How we totally disregard our not so distant past. How we now are so hush hush and have to be politically correct.

    We fail to see all of the signs around us. No I do not agree that all muslims are bad or radical. But there is one small hitch the koran teaches that muslims are to put the entire world under islamic law. Many countries have been taken by force already. But the west will be taken by out growing our native populations. It is already happening in europe. There are videos (not bashing by the way) just showing by the numbers of how fast muslim populations are growing in the west. Within 30 years islam will be the defacto in europe.

    If you go and trace foreign news lines you would find muslim leaders praising for their victory in europe with a war. And it goes on and on.

    There is another done by an (I believe) ex hezbollah terrorist. He shows how radical and extreme the palistinians teach their children to hate Jews and the west. And we wonder why Israel has a hard time with them.

    How about all of the curent wars going on in the world today? How many of them are muslim backed and started. What about the state of affairs in africa today? Sudan, Darfur, Etheopia, Somalia, Nigeria, and the list goes on.

    How about the proof that has been hidden from the news how some of these peaceful muslims crying out against the radicals on our news and in the presence of non-muslims. But when in private quarters with just muslims they speak of praise about the radicals.

    How about the honor killings in Dallas and other cities across our own nation, muslim law on our turf yet it was hush, hush so we do not confront or seemingly place blame on their beliefs.

    You know what would happen if we stopped buying oil from the middle east, terrorism would decline rapidly. Because there would be no more billions of dollars available to fund it. Now isn’t that a novel idea.

    We thought at one time communism was our worst enemy. Not hardly watch the news, what do you see all around the world? Terrorist bombings in Spain, India, England, and the list goes on. YOu need also remember there are 2 sides to the koran. The peaceful first half when mohammad was in the midst of jews, christians and tribal peoples, Then when in medina (I may have them backwards please forgive me) when he became a majority it was slaughter all who did not convert.

    So who side am I on. I am on a side of peace. This is a Judean/Christian country. If you want to come here you become a part of our country. You become loyal to our country. You serve our country if called upon. And you speak english.

    But I have met many, many muslims here that have been ‘nice’ people, have been helpful people. But will tell you straight up that they hate our government. They hate our society etc… etc… Well if they hate us so much then go back to where they came from.

    Oh yeah that is right, the world of islam today in a report by the UN is one of the poorest, underdeveloped, no true freedoms, no equality etc… outside of africa. What brought them to this point?

    Well our writer tells us that muslims were at one time the greatest of cutures while europe was in the dark ages. Well he should have done some more research. The persians and arabs were very literate, scholars and scientists for their day. Once Islam took control they discarded all of this.

    So when writing an article at least do some real research. There are many, many videos done by ex-muslims and muslims alike that will show the west what is really going on today.

    And no we do not have true freedom of speech or press anymore. Truth is almost always put down in light of being politically correct. But only time will tell and when the proverbial fat lady sings we will know the truth about islam and it’s over all objectives in our country and culture.

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