In the Arena

Latest Column

From my travels. Jet-lag receding, I hope to resume less foggy blogging today…or maybe tomorrow.

Response: Several commenters approve of the criticism leveled by sgwhiteinfla below. Let me respond. The commenter makes two points. He says I’m snarky about Joe Biden because he sometimes says things like, “Vladimir Putin, Lord love ‘im.” Actually, I love that about Biden. It’s eminently human. I also love most of his gaffes–like when he said there was a 30% chance the Obama stimulus plan would fail. Sounds like truth-telling to me. The point of my comment was a) affectionate and b) to reinforce the obvious importance of the speech, which hasn’t received the attention it deserved. But this was a very minor point.

More important, although still peripheral, was sgw‘s dismay with my criticism of the German Defense Minister’s vapid and disingenuous speech, which made no mention at all of the deteriorating situation on the ground, except to echo Karzai’s criticism of the increased civilian casualties (which is what Karzai does instead of cleaning out the corruption in his government). It’s nice that the Germans are adding 2000 more troops–and it’s also nice that Jung held out the German stewardship of its northern areas as a model for the rest of Afghanistan. It is, however, a comparison of lambs and piranhas. The north is essentially peaceful and taliban-free, which is why the Germans chose to station themselves there. They do  sustain casualties, on occasion, but only in defensive, daylight situations. Their troops operate under so many caveats, imposed by their Bundestag, that they are incapable of performing useful military operations, which infuriates those NATO members who are doing the heavy lifting in the active war zones–which was my point: there is a severe breach within NATO, which may cripple the alliance.  Sgtwhiteinfla has nothing to say about this or any other central assertions of the column.

I should add that those allies who are actually fighting–the Brits, Canadians, Dutch, Australians, French, Danes etc.–are doing so in an enlightened manner, using counterinsurgency principles designed to protect local populations, first and foremost. Yes, civilian casualties are rising–because enemy operations are rising and because of the use of aerial bombardment, a consequence of too few troops on the ground. One hopes that aerial problem will be rectified with more troops and better intelligence, both U.S. and Afghan. (The Predator strikes in Pakistan–which are very accurate, by the way–are a separate issue that I intend to discuss in some detail after I do some more reporting.)

In sum, I stand by every word in the column. If it were longer, I would have described the German and British Defense Ministers’ speeches in more detail–as I did in a post here last week–but I have only 800 words in a print column and had a lot of ground to cover this week.

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  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate
  • bitterpill8

    I am familiar with the doings in Doha and wonder if you can do a specific post with details on how the Arabs are lining up especially in their views on Iran. On a personal note: I was in Malaysia when Anwar Ibrahim was charged and railroaded into prison (and I know him personally having met with him regularly when he was Minister if Finance). His problem has always been that he is less than tactful in holding his own people to account and was seen as “pro-American”. Did not help him. The Malaysian judiciary was in the PM’s pocket then.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Joe Klein
    .
    Since some commenters seem alarmed at the level of vitriol I will try to put forth my questions as non threateningly as possible.
    .
    1. Why did you feel the need to try to make fun of Joe Biden in an otherwise “serious” article. Here is the relevant part I am talking about.
    .

    The clearest statement of American intent came from Vice President Joe Biden in Munich, in a speech so important that Biden read it word for word, without Bidenic huzzahs — he didn’t say, for example, “Vladimir Putin, Lord love ‘im!” He did say quietly startling things like “We will listen. We will consult.” And “We will strive to act preventively, not pre-emptively.” And “America will act aggressively against climate change.” He offered an unclenched fist to Iran and a willingness to push “the reset button” with Russia.

    .
    Now I have to ask is Joe Biden now the Al Gore of 2009? Here is the same paragraph without the over reach for snark.
    .

    The clearest statement of American intent came from Vice President Joe Biden in Munich, in a speech so important that Biden read it word for word. He said quietly startling things like “We will listen. We will consult.” And “We will strive to act preventively, not pre-emptively.” And “America will act aggressively against climate change.” He offered an unclenched fist to Iran and a willingness to push “the reset button” with Russia.

    .
    Now you still portray the same thoughts just without the need to try to kick the guy again. Joe Biden is a gaffe machine, we get it. But to put gaffes in his mouth is a big much don’t you think?
    .
    2. You referred to the German Defense Minister Franz Josef Jung as a “Gandhian archetype” who “gave a ridiculously optimistic report about progress in Afghanistan.” However the BBC characterized his report thusly.
    .
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7233971.stm
    .

    German Defence Minister Franz Josef Jung had already announced that Germany would send an additional 200 troops as a quick reaction force to help in the north, which could also in theory be called upon to help Nato allies in need in the south.
    .
    But he made it clear that Germany was not able to deploy combat troops to the south.
    .
    “Within Nato, we have agreed on a reasonable share-out of tasks, which in my view is very wise,” said Mr Jung in Vilnius. “I think our contribution in Afghanistan is sufficient.”

    .
    Then they quoted a spokesman of the German Defense Ministry who further clarified.
    .

    “Our allies might think we should do more in Afghanistan, but our message is that we are already the third largest troop-contributing nation and we are doing other things for the whole of Afghanistan,” he said.

    .
    And in a different article the BBC said this about his report
    .
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7877505.stm
    .

    However, German Defence Minister Franz Josef Jung, whose country is a major troop contributor in Afghanistan, insisted that civil reconstruction was as important as the military effort.

    .
    So I am wondering if you can amplify what Jung said that was ridiculously optomistic. I am not saying he didn’t say anything that could be characterized that way, I am just asking for clarification so we can all see if WE would characterize it that way.
    .
    Now these are the questions I have of your article and I don’t think I projected any ill will towards you in asking them. So whenever you get a chance I am hoping for a response.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    The last 2 paragraphs shouldn’t be blockquoted

  • mmchampion

    SG, you not only immensely improved what JK wrote, but you did it with total class. I would’ve glossed over what he wrote with a trace of annoyance without knowing exactly why. Many thanks.
    .
    I have to sign off before the IT folks track me down and flog me but just wanted to say that the difference between your comment and hulagate’s shows why some comments are read, re-read, and read again and why others are scrolled-by.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

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  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Biden:

    “We will listen. We will dissect. We will genuflect. We will regale. We will plagiarize. We will obfuscate. We will get free train fare to almost Scranton on some sorry sack’s tax dime because I’m Joe Freakin Biden and I’m that good…”

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    Wake us when NATO finds their missing balls.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    German Defense Ministry = Petra Kelley Fan Club

    In a word, USELESS.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    I think it’s a pretty good column, illustrating that a reasonable America is a game-changer.
    -
    Also, it seems to me indisputable that sgwhiteinfla’s comment adds immeasurably to a reader’s understanding of what’s going on.
    -
    The original column engaged in two notable rhetorical flights of fancy– re: Biden and Jung– and sgwhite’s comment brings both of them back down to reality. Great, great comment.

  • Friar Tuck

    Nice job, sgw.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    In light of the recent admonishments for being overly personal in our dismissal of certain posts — this was a truly elegant critique of the propensity of some swamplanders to substitute what they think is entertaining banter for actual reporting.
    .
    JK – While I am a fan of the good one liner, humor requires an unexpected truth to be revealing, relevant, and reformative.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    The elegant critique belongs to SG not me.

  • kathy

    Good column, and I couldn’t help but hope, as I was reading it, that the world’s leaders might deal with Obama more constructively than this country’s Republicans, (who seem increasingly intent on taking down this President and the rest of us with them. I can only think they all have enough money that they don’t think they will possibly end up in serious trouble if the economy tanks.)

  • ivb3016

    Sorry to waste time with a me too, but sgw’s comment was really edifying and I very much appreciate it. My understanding of the situation was dramatically enhanced.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Yall have got to stop this, you have me over here blushing for real. But thanks for the props.

  • yoshiattack

    Let me get this straight. Vice President Biden makes a statement to the effect of “we will think before we act,” and this is interpreted as a “clarion statement of international sanity” by you, Mr. Klein? There was nothing that Biden said that could possibly warrant your overwrought phrasing. In fact, I’m pretty sure that your knowing exaggerations of the Bush years has actually become reality in your head. (in that case, at least, your prose about everything Obama would make sense)
    .
    Obama has barely stepped out of the gate in his presidency. There’s really nothing to say. Yes, the world is puzzled…that makes sense, because the world has to wait for the newest President to actually do anything of lasting substance. If it was McCain, they’d still be guessing at this point. I know it’s your job to write something about the Washington think tank scene, but can you please write something that means more?

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Me three. Thanks sg. I was thinking along these lines as I read the piece, but I would not have expressed it so well.

  • g_crush

    .
    JK: ..without Bidenic huzzahs — he didn’t say, for example, “Vladimir Putin, Lord love ‘im!”
    .
    Joe, Biden is more than capable of being serious. Did you get him confused with Sarah Palin, maybe?
    .
    The article contains a mild ragging of Biden, yes, but it serves to accentuate the sea change in America’s approach to diplomacy and foreign policy that comes with the changing of Presidential administrations. Overall, it’s a decent snapshot of what’s happening on the foreign policy front and what it might mean to the world. Not bad, Joe.

  • stuartzechman

    I have to ask is Joe Biden now the Al Gore of 2009?…Joe Biden is a gaffe machine, we get it. But to put gaffes in his mouth is a big much don’t you think?
    .
    sgwhiteinfla:
    .
    Excellent point.
    .
    Joe Klein:
    .
    Do you insert these irrelevant Village-isms out of sheer habit, or do you do so because you believe that appeals to the Beltway’s commonly accepted narratives enhance the credibility of your reporting?
    .
    If it’s for the latter reason, you need to understand that this is highly counter-productive. You see, The Disconnect between your community’s Conventional Wisdom and us regular Americans’ perspectives on just about everything is so wide these days that these sorts of “I’ll just throw that in there so they all know I’m an insider…” appeals don’t enhance your credibility with us atll –they detract from it.
    .
    So either try a bit harder to suppress the same tic that was so shamefully on display during campaign 2000, or please get the hint that sticking to the Village personality narrative gets you far more looks of incredulous disgust than gape-mouthed nods from us rubes in 2009, Joe Klein.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Shameless promo
    .
    Dna Froomkin with at Virtually Speaking tonight. His tweet:
    .
    whitehousewatch Froomkin in Second Life: Hey, who’s that over there? It’s me. Well, virtual me. That’s my Second Life avatar.. http://tinyurl.com/cxx3gd

  • deathbypapers

    I’m one of those commenters (sic) who occasionally posts complaints about tone and props to sgw for his insightful and respectful critique of Klein’s essay. Now I don’t know if it will do any better to get a response out of Klein than the other, more vitriolic… dare I say troll-like… complaints (see sz), but at least it elevates the debate above name calling.
    Bravo sgw, bravo.

  • g_crush

    .
    Oh, and I’d like to echo SG’s earlier point…

    “So I am wondering if you can amplify what Jung said that was ridiculously optimistic.”

    I’d find that interesting.
    .
    I realize that in the dead-tree world, there’s such a thing as available column inches, but elaborating on why you feel that way would be informative. You could even do it, say, in an online blog, where available space is not as much of a consideration.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    We all agree…
    SG wins not only the thread but the post itself!
    .
    Yesterday I was defending JK’s tendency to think with his gut, today I won’t do so. His description of the European’s seem to operate under the assumption that there is a certain fixed amount of Warmaking that is necessary in Afghanistan and that the only question is who is to do it. I reject the premise.
    .
    The idea that considering foriegn policy holistically and actually noting how things are interconnected slows reaction time and can be construed negatively is a poisonous one, and I think that deep-down, Joe realizes this. But the notion that there is something noble about shooting from the hip with inadequate information is a pervasive one, and it will be difficult to get past the power of that particular myth.

  • g_crush

    .
    jayackroyd: Shameless promo..Dan Froomkin with at Virtually Speaking tonight.
    .
    heh. Froomkin’s avatar looks like a younger, Westernized Osama Bin Laden.

  • 2cute4prison

    I like Joe Biden and I got a little chuckle out of it. While I don’t completely agree that this little joke was an abomination and the end to civil discourse as we know it (don’t kill me for hyperbole), I thought the way the dissenting viewpoints were articulated and presented separates this blog from others.
    .
    That’s why I comment rarely but read often.
    .
    I will say that when the subject of the comment is on the other side, the little snark is rarely criticized.
    .
    I’m with G_crush though, not bad Joe.

  • stuartzechman

    This is “vitriolic“?

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Froomkin’s avatar looks like a younger, Westernized Osama Bin Laden.
    .
    I don’t think so myself. More a crazed R. Crumb character. But I’ll tell him you said so.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    .
    I will say that when the subject of the comment is on the other side, the little snark is rarely criticized.

    .
    I’d say, rather, that this kind of snark was rare when Little Boots was in power.

  • themaverickformerlyknownasbasilbrush

    It’s refreshing to see people removing the rhetorical pork from Klein’s latest attempt at stimulating interest in politics.

  • Suzie in MD

    sgw,
    .
    As others have said, you wrote an elegantly constructed critique of JK’s article that added crucial information and context. It was a wonderful reminder of why I started reading Swampland in the first place. Thanks.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    But the notion that there is something noble about shooting from the hip with inadequate information is a pervasive one
    .
    I’d substitute “manly” for “noble” and suggest that is a big part of the problem. The nuclear arms race was really a “my dick is bigger than yours” issue. And Johnson’s (hah!) unwillingness to withdraw was also associated with manhood perceptions.

  • 2cute4prison

    Jay, no argument. But snarky was known by a different term back then, “unpatriotic”.
    .
    basil, “rhetorical pork”. Nice. I’m dreading the day someone takes this out of my vocabulary and I have nothing left to say.

  • rose83

    SG, great post.
    .
    The truth is that politicians (especially the career politicians who have spend decades with safe seats, like McCain, and yes, Biden) make so many gaffes that journalistic exaggeration is unnecessary. Joe may feel like this is some minor issue, but it is very frustrating to see people criticized for things they haven’t done. It shows a lack of respect for evidence that is unfortunately characteristic of the MSM. The other problem is that this “innocent” ridicule of politicians is never equally harsh towards all politicians. It’s still amazing that Al Gore was the ridiculous candidate in the 2000 election. It’s bad enough when journalists exploit these gaffes to target the politicians they don’t like for whatever reason, but it’s even worse when they just make things up.
    .
    So Joe, if you’re going to insist on these personality narratives, could you please at least restrain yourself by only citing real gaffes, not “hypothetical” gaffes that a politician could have made but actually did not?

  • deathbypapers

    sz, don’t have time to reply in depth, on a deadline, but i’ll get back to you if you wish. i was referring more to comments in the past, and it was unfair of me to single you out there, as other than your two references to “village-people” there wasn’t anything objectionable there. So I apologize.

  • stuartzechman

    Joe Klein:
    .
    Thank you very, very much for responding to commentary; it is appreciated, and adds immeasurably to the value of your blogging.

  • stuartzechman

    deathbypapers:
    .
    Thanks for your clarifying response.

  • Art Pepper

    Joe – out of curiousity, was the headline an intentional reference to the Graham Greene novel? If so that’s rather ominous.
    .
    It’s interesting that a simple declaration that the U.S. will pursue diplomacy could change the tone to such a degree. Interesting also that the UK Defense Minister argues for a “wartime” mentality. It’s not at all clear to me that’s what is needed in Afghanistan right now. (btw, anyone catch Brzezinski on Maddow last night?)

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    jay points out
    .

    I’d say, rather, that this kind of snark was rare when Little Boots was in power.

    .
    Hell you couldn’t snark Bush because his actual words were better than any joke. When you have volumes of “Bushisms” it kind of makes him an easy target, no? Still I don’t recall a time where Bush said something serious (I think there were at least a few) and a journo still took the occasion to insert what he MIGHT have said in a MSM print source. Rememember this wasn’t a Swampland post, this is for “serious” consumption.

  • plukasiak

    One question about the whole “German” thing…
    _
    The north is the where Afghanistan’s opium poppy industry is centered. Are the Germans actively engaged in efforts against these people (whose product creates huge addiction problems throughout Europe), or is it allowing the druglords to operate a mini-narcostate without interference in the name of “peace”.

  • Matt

    No need to get snarky about Biden. Just post his comments verbatim and let the laughs roll in… And, yes, that is a lovable quality in him. He balances out the wonkish O.

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Art P
    .
    Dr Z is a MONSTER! I caught it and I am very glad I did.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Joe Klein
    .
    You might actually want to reread my post. Here is what I actually said.
    .

    So I am wondering if you can amplify what Jung said that was ridiculously optomistic. I am not saying he didn’t say anything that could be characterized that way, I am just asking for clarification so we can all see if WE would characterize it that way.
    .
    Now I await your correction in your “response”
    .

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    BTW notice that even when I am civil towards Joe Kline the response I get is ass holish. Makes you wonder why I should even try, right?

  • Art Pepper

    TIME should let you guys write longer articles and then trim it to 800 words for the print edition but publish the longer version online. The online edition is the future anyway.
    .
    As always thanks for engaging w/us, Joe.
    -
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Jung’s statement was totally self-serving. But what exactly is the mission in Afghanistan now? To kill Taliban? To buttress the Karzai government? It seems the U.S. has not had a real strategy there since ~2002.

  • Suzie in MD

    Can’t speak for others, sgw, but I appreciate it even if JK doesn’t.

  • sqr1

    (which is what Karzai does instead of cleaning out the corruption in his government)
    .
    Here’s the thing. Karzai may very well not be the best possible President for Afghanistan and there may very well be more that he could do, but it is pretty rich listening to American journalists lecture Afghanistan on its corruption problems when the ignore if not praise the revolving door of money, lobbyists, “access”, and corruption that is pervasive in America.
    .
    And when people like Glenn Greenwald or Jay Rosen address the corruption in American politics and journalism, Joe Klein and his colleagues at Time are nowhere to be found…unless it is to lob snarky put-downs like “liberal scold”.
    .
    It is hip for the Kool Kidz to dismiss America’s corruption problems but get on a soapbox about the leaders of a poor, weak Central Asia country that is being pulled in a thousand directions by everyone from U.S. politicians to oil and gas companies to opium traders to religious fundamentalists to the Pakistani intelligence service to regional warlords.

  • rose83

    SG, because when people read the thread you look like the reasonable one. Most people just read and don’t comment. And since Joe wrote this long response to you in the actual post, there’s a good chance a lot of people scrolled down to see your comment. Your measured tone and citation of evidence probably persuaded people who are less obsessed with politics than we are. (The whole “I’m a reasonable guy” thing worked pretty well for Obama.)
    .
    Basically, you won.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Spectacular exchange.
    -
    Thanks for engaging and adding new info, Joe. As you’re aware, lifetime tenure can create terrible incentives to indolence and ignorance– see, i.e., the career of George Will. It’s great to see you engaging in this kind of back and forth.
    -
    And yeah, sg, it wasn’t the politest response of all time, it was kinda petulant, but it was very substantive. I confess to having mixed substance with sneering on occasion. I really like Joe’s response. It adds to my understanding of what’s going on in Afghanistan, and w/n NATO.

  • stuartzechman

    The tension splattered into full view once, in an indirect confrontation between the Defense Ministers of Germany and the U.K. The German, a Gandhian archetype named Franz Josef Jung, gave a ridiculously optimistic report about progress in Afghanistan. The British Defense Minister responded elegantly during the next panel, “We need more of a wartime rather than a peacetime mentality at NATO … There’s too much of an obsession with process and prevarication.”

    .
    Interesting.
    .
    Here’s what the Secretary General of the UN had to say last summer about the Germans:
    .


    I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate my gratitude for Germany’s contribution to peacekeeping operations. Germany is not only the third largest financial contributor to the United Nations, but has been actively participating in many UN peacekeeping operations, and also international and stabilization forces, namely in Afghanistan.
    .
    Germany has also increased its military contributions to many areas and I’m encouraged by all that German men and women have been contributing for peace and stability in Lebanon, the maritime task force, and also in Afghanistan, you have the third largest forces in Afghanistan.
    .
    I was encouraged by Minister Jung’s determination to increase by 1,000 more soldiers in Afghanistan. I’d really like to express my sincere appreciation on this. We have also agreed to work very closely in Afghanistan and Lebanon and for overall peace and security in the Middle East and also peacekeeping operations in Darfur.
    .
    I also wish to note that Germany has contributed significantly to training and capacity building for the Afghanistan national police and I have especially requested the Minister to consider increasing additional female police officers to Afghanistan and Israel. All in all I’m very much grateful to Germany’s contribution and cooperation for the work of the United Nations and I’m looking forward to welcoming him to the United Nations when he comes to the UN on November 20th. Thank you very much, Mr. Minister, for your support. Thank you.

    .
    Interesting…where’s the full quote from Jung, in which he gave “a ridiculously optimistic report“?

  • mmchampion

    SG, I noticed the same thing about his response. One thing we all seem to have in common is a strong urge to protect Biden (probably because he does seem to be such a lovable lug.) He doesn’t need any help in the gaffe department, he does just fine by himself…
    .
    Also agree that you weren’t criticising JK, but asking for clarification and more information. He provided more and the exchange was interesting and informative and pretty darn civilised. And gosh, he did respond and that’s always good to see.
    .
    If it sounded unkind I’d just chalk it up to jet-lag or low blood sugar. Manners be d@mned when I’m tired or hungry.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    A few additional questions for Joe Klein since he says I have nothing to say about questions that weren’t asked of me.
    .
    1. Does Germany in point of fact have the 3rd highest level of troops in Afghanistan?
    .
    2. Did the Taliban or Al Qaeda attack Germany?
    .
    3. Has Germany lost troops fighting in Afghanistan?
    .
    4. Are German troops helping in reconstruction?
    .
    5. Would we be better off if Germany withdrew all of its troops?
    .
    6. Should Germany be more concerned with the safety their own troops or with what America wants?
    7. What SPECIFICALLY did Jung say that was “ridiculously optomistic”? In reviewing your response I still don’t see where he commented on the conditions on the ground. In point of fact you said he didn’t make mention of the deteriorating situation. So did he say things were getting better on the ground? Did he say we were close to “winning” in Afghanistan? As was my original question, I am still waiting to see what he said that was “ridiculuosly optomistic”.

  • 2cute4prison

    Joe, just want to echo the thanks for engaging. Also, regular commenters here often make points using a lot of facts and a few niceties. I don’t think Joe was over the top in his response and he did add some facts. I enjoyed the exchange.
    .
    I do want to say that I’m glad to see the effect of Obama on our image abroad. I understand the economy should take up a lot of coverage here in the US, but Americans need to be reminded that just by his being elected the “tone” towards America has thawed a bit.

  • Andy from MA

    Joe, thanks for the interaction with commenters here.

  • stuartzechman

    (from Joe’s piece):
    .
    “The German, a Gandhian archetype named Franz Josef Jung…”
    .
    (from Joe’s response)
    .
    It’s nice that the Germans are adding 2000 more troops…
    .
    It’s not only “nice“, it’s, well…not exactly “Ghandian” of the German Defense Minister, is it?
    .
    They do sustain casualties, on occasion, but only in defensive, daylight situations.
    .
    German forces aren’t exactly vacationing in Tahiti, are they?
    .
    That seems to be a far cry from a “…split between countries whose troops actually fight in Afghanistan and those whose troops do not.
    .
    The worst thing about the piece is that the whole “Ghandian archetype” angle is a pretty thoughtlessly insulting characterization of our ally (who at this very moment has forces in the field), isn’t it? It almost sounds like something John Bolton would say.
    .
    If “…the U.S. was done with thoughtless bellicosity…“, then why isn’t Joe Klein?

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Thanks Joe. Disagreement and discussion are good!!

  • Paul-no not that one

    While unconvinced that Joe actually addressed sgw’s questions I do appreciate the response.
    And sgw not only did you get a response you were promoted. “Sgtwhiteinfla” Or busted, I guess.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    PNNTO
    .
    LOL yeah he got it right the first time then added a t the second time so I guess its a promotion of sorts. It looks more to me like he used a helluva strawman in his response but hey, I guess a sh*tty response is better than no response right?
    .
    BTW if anyone wants an example of what I mean about Al Gore 2000 check out this dailyhowler archive.
    .
    http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh102008.shtml
    .
    I am unconvinced that Klein’s explanation of his snark towards Biden holds any water. If you think he put that line in the story because has affection for Biden I have a bridge to nowhere to sell ya. Notice he complains of having limited space in the dead tree edition to fully explain himself but he found a way to fit in his snark, didn’t he?

  • formerlyrainbow68

    I’ve said before that I find Biden refreshing. He’s shoot from the hip and very honest. I remember when I was in college how our vice-president at the time (Quayle) couldn’t open his mouth without saying something bizarre. Republicans used to go on tv saying he was kidding and was really brilliant, but I don’t know…

  • bitterpill8

    sgw: thanks for taking a tack that produced a response. Joe: I can never understand how serious issues can be reduced to 800 words. Maybe that is why our journalism is often deplorable.If you count words you lose quality content. I know! the High Panjandrums issue these diktats.

    In that case why not come in the way KT does and become a commenter: you can elaborate, engage and expand and educate and be educated. Use the 800 words limit and a stepping point into Swampland Commentaria : most people are ready to engage.

  • Art Pepper

    bitterpill: I agree, but it also depends what the bean counters think is important. If the print edition is considered the “real” work and Swamp is just something the writers are supposed to do in their spare time or while on vacation (KT!) then I can’t fault them for devoting more energy on the former than the latter.

  • themaverickformerlyknownasbasilbrush

    “They were out of excuses, especially our NATO allies. If the U.S. was done with thoughtless bellicosity, the peaceable Euros might have to respond more substantively to our requests for them to live up to their pledges in Afghanistan.”

    Of course, you conveniently omit the fact that the US failed to live up to its pledges – the result being too little funding and too few troops. Trying to shuffle the blame on to the Europeans exclusively is a squalid lie, and makes me wonder whether your days of whoring for Hoekstra are really behind you.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    It’s interesting that you consider a comparison to Ghandi to be a pejorative. The Europeans who don’t want to send troops to Afghanistan are have their eyes wide open, because Joe the one thing missing from your piece is WHY they should send more troops. To what end? Because they gave us their pledge? Our behavior in recent years removes any obligation made by any European country after 9/11 in regard to Afghanistan. Period. You still believe in an extant American hegemony and tend to stamp your feet and become dismissive when others demonstrate a greater grasp of reality. Based on your MO, I have to assume the German Defense Minister slighted you or didn’t show enough deference to your journalistic know-it-all-ness and you’ve responded as you are prone to do.

  • dunedweller

    sgw, I really appreciate that you have raised the comparison of the treatment of Al Gore 2000 with how VP Biden is being portrayed. I’ve had a difficult time swallowing all the hype about Biden’s so-called gaffes. Yes he has gone off the board in a few public comments – frankly, I find it very human and refreshing. But make no mistake, Biden is an intellect, a visionary, and a seasoned pro at communicating. From first becoming aware of him as a senator to the primaries of 2008, I have been impressed with him. My only concern that he wasn’t President material was that he lacked the newness and star quality we often expect from candidates. Anyway, I am pleased he’s VP and sincerely hope the BS about his gaffes will stop and that people start to really listen and report honestly on his behalf. After all, didn’t the Gore libel teach us a harsh lesson? Just think where we would be had he been taken more seriously in 2000…
    .
    And thanks for comment #3 – it preempted a robust exchange.

  • ivb3016

    OT – the my evil twin hopes that Phil Graham may get caught up in this.
    .
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a6R_EXquwBi4&refer=home

  • MapGuy

    I’m another of those that post very infrequently, but read almost daily. I do so because of the often passionate but thoughtful discourse found in these discussion threads. The better threads are definitely those where there is strong interaction between the blogger and the commenters; the best are those where the conversation is not derailed by vitriolic, unreasoned ranting. This has been a great thread because both conditions have been met.
    *
    If I could be so presumptuous, I’d just like to add that the best thing this (or any) political blog can have is a wide range of opinion, with frequent but respectful and reasoned conflict. When respect and reason isn’t forthcoming from one side or another, I’d rather see that opinion ignored in the conversation, rather than let it dilute the high quality of other discussion. This thread sets that tone perfectly.

  • Cliff

    Looks like we’ve found HH’s successor.

  • flagrantenigma

    I have to agree with the earlier poster who thought Klein’s attempt to put the blame onto the Europeans was extremely dishonest. Doubtless Europe isn’t perfect, but they have carried a lot of the burden, often with little acknowledgment, while Bush decided to invade Iraq, thus neglecting the war in Afghanistan. Throwing cheap shots at the Europeans, as Klein does, is simply false to the facts, and a very silly Ugly American viewpoint. I can’t comment on Klein’s relationship with Hoekstra, but I do worry about his relationship to the truth.

  • jcapan

    Ah, Graham Greene–I’d give a kidney to hear his take on Joe’s reporting. You know, Mozart commenting on Salieri’s primitive, conventional strivings. For anyone who’s not read the Q. American, you’re missing out on one of the most penetrating and elegant take-downs of American fo-po going. The Noyce adap. is pretty brilliantly done as well. It helps that Greene wasn’t on a strict diet of Potomac kool aid.
    ~
    As a lit guy, I maintain that one work of art can cut through mountains of rhetorical B-S and spin, of which Senor Klein is the master. Boil it all down, all these posts, and it amts. to nothing more than PR and propaganda for war. The debate, as always, strays no further left than the establishment center. On one hand, Pyle might seem a poor stand-in for Obama. But if one gives Obama credit for having a more grounded understanding of the world, an African father, the Indonesian and Hawaiian years, perhaps he’s worthy of far less sympathy and far more scorn for his fo-po articulations thus far.

  • http://www.hulagate.org hulagate

    http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=6916695

    … … …

    My favorite part of the new administration IS when Bill Clixon chips in his 2 cents of RWANDA and KHOBAR TOWERS and USS COLE legacy.

    You know.

    The Halfbright-Holbrooke Regime Change.

    Holbrooke’s on the moob tube last night and when asked about anything in Kashmir being part of the peace vs war equation he says “that’s not part of the process” or words to that effect.

    I suppose they’ll run with that in Pakistan too.

    Good God I miss Dick Cheney.

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