Why They Sent Joe Biden To Munich

The Emperor has no clothes!
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It’s absolutely depressing that the whole structure of our government precludes the possibility of just saying what you think without fear of gotcha games by the cable shows. Joe’s right. The Dems could get everything they ask for and the economy continue to tank anyway. The whole thing is a Rube Goldberg contraption in the first place, held together by faith and common interest.

“That’s it; we’re screwed.” – Commander Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
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KT, I am so irritated at Amy Sullivan that I am contemplating violence, but I’m willing to kneecap Blitzer instead if you’ll agree to have a conversation with Amy about issue selection and content.
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Seriously, I’m afraid we really are in the soup now.

KT – the Wonk Room is echoing your HHS suggestion of Jack Lew:
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http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/02/06/hhs-candidates/

You know, Karen, it irritates me when these number soundbites are picked out for special attention. I don’t have the journalistic/political sophistication of many swamp dwellers but I recognize a blatant attempt to create a story when there is none. Any intelligent listener with common sense would recognize Biden’s words for what they were — an ordinary (and well-intentioned, IMHO) attempt to give the administration’s preferred solution a rational perspective. We are in uncharted waters pulling tricks from our voodoo economics bag and there is a good chance it may not work. I think most listeners already understand that. So why make it into such a big deal?
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But it sure as hell beats the crap out of the tired ol’ Repub tax cut approach.
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And I really like Wolf Blitzer. His name alone gives him cred.

Oops, make that “Swamp Dwellers” as you are each deserving of respect.
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Well, maybe not hula.

KT, you’re the Jerry Seinfeld of journalism. Another post about nothing.

Biden went to Germany?

That channel chunnel must be really long.

Because uncertainty about the uncertain is a “gaffe” and certainty about the uncertain is smart politics (even though it’s a lie or a form of self-delusion)? That what your saying, Karen?

Joe hopes to convince Russia to re-subdivide Old Europe.

Since it worked so well before, and in Iraq.

Oh good grape.

Tumultuous tells a legit funny, and the leading limps of liberalism still can’t take a joke.

You’d think this week if any would have them laughing in the airhead amnesiac appeasenik aisles.

“KT, you’re the Jerry Seinfeld of journalism.”
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It’s worse, it’s Blitzer territory. Seinfeld is insightful on occasion.
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The idea that we are in uncharted waters here and that no one knows what will happen is so elementary, any idiot should understand it. To the Blitzer’s of the world, it’s a gotcha moment.

Yes the media and political world criticize politicians for merely speaking the truth, as Biden was here. And yes that’s unfortunate. But where has he been for the last 35 years? You need to recognize the Rules that govern your profession, however absurd they may be. Can he please go two weeks without giving ammunition to his boss’s opponents?
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Is it too late to make a New Year’s resolution?

President Obama knew Joe Biden was forthright when he tapped him to be veep. His good still way outweighs his bad. Maybe we’re just not used to this kind of honesty in D.C.

“Tumultuous tells a legit funny,…” – hulagate
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I rest my case.

PBS Updude: That walrus lib hack with the huge coke rims declares tonight that “the conservative era is over”.

How can that be, given it has a relatively short history in the last 70 years — where the liberal tenured union establishment retains the marvelous tax and spend controls over most of the failed budgets in modern U.S. history?

Bush was saddled with cleaning up the messes that Carter and Clinton left behind. Those troubles are not low cost, in any respect.

The GOP just “saved” taxpayers about $150 billion more in waste and abuse — but there too there was room for improvement. The left is so far left they’ve left for Canada, without even meeting Canada’s president, er, prime minister.

We can do more, starting with reversing the Medicrap math, the farm and union subsidies, the junior college funds wasted on dropouts that never learned the basic in hie skoo, a monstrous tax regime, leaking borders, and kicking the cheats out of Team Obama as a 4 Year Plan (it will be a recurring theme, apparently).

Don’t worry about the Republicans. They’re a known quantity, responsible, predictable, knowledgeable, thrifty, and loyal.

Wake us when the dems as a group show ANY of those tendencies, for longer than a campaign season.

CNN is reporting that Sen. Kennedy will be able to vote tonight.

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Biden pulled a Biden, and the talking heads are gonna focus on the number instead of the larger meaning which Axelrod nailed: the only thing guaranteed is massive failure if nothing is done.
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Actually, I’m pleased with the candid remark. We’ve been fed too much bullsh!t for way too long.
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The real reason Biden is in Munich, in case anyone is wondering.

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Bad linky! Bad!…We’ve been fed too much bullsh!t for way too long.

Biden’s one of the biggest blowholes in political history, when he bothers to use his own material. Truly, one of the most debilitating psyches in D.C.

My guess IS Obama’s regretting the choice every hour, where Bayh or Nunn would have offered much more useful content, and in a format that was not disruptive by design.

Biden has to know that, and it must suck being him.

I think I am in love with g_crush and PD. Now if we could just get Joe Biden to comment on Amy’s latest.

“Don’t worry about the Republicans. They’re a known quantity, responsible, predictable, knowledgeable, thrifty, and loyal.”
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What color is the sky on your planet?

KT–I wonder if you even care about the country you children will live in. Why is everyone expected to make sacrifices except the media. The rest of us have to tighten our belts and you and your brethren get to continue with your tomfoolery?
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Give me a break, what are you going to say to your children 20 years from now when they ask you and they will, what did you do to help the situation mommy? You going to tell them well nothing honey because what I do for a living really isn’t that important.
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Pearlstein at least asked for Congress people to get some econ education – he might have ever say to hire an advisor to sit by their side, If he can ask Congress to stop saying stupid things about the economy can’t you at least ask simple questions like to explain why what they say has any basis in reality — so they just don’t get to put out what ever crap they dream up?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090206/ap_on_re_eu/eu_russia_us_afghanistan

Biden’s really headed over the swamp to help increase Russian resistance to NATO expansion and victory over terror.

In that regard, Obama has likely picked the proper pinhead.

The problem is threefold:
1) Joe Biden pulled 30% out of his butt.
2) Wolf Blitzer zeroed in on the 30% that Biden pulled out of his butt.
3) Axelrod didn’t do the “what Joe meant to say” routine, explaining (with perhaps a laugh about the 30%) tha Joe is doing some plain speaking to Americans, telling them that we can’t know what other problems might occur, and that there are no guarantees — at that point, Axelrod goes on to talk about guaranteed failure if the GOP gets its way.

In sum, three people acted like idiots, and there is nothing wrong with Karen pointing that out.

“…what are you going to say to your children 20 years from now…”

Donde esta la biblioteca?

“In sum, three people acted like idiots, and there is nothing wrong with Karen pointing that out.”
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You just pointed that out. Karen, OTOH, used her valuable MSM real estate to promulgated a GOP-centric joke about that loose-tongued schlub Joe Biden’s supposed gaffe which was, in fact, closer to the truth than anything heard from the mouths of any Republican over the past week. Considering where we are, yes, there’s something wrong with that.

KT–I wonder if you even care about the country you children will live in.
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Dee, I don’t mean to single you out because you are merely one of several Swampland commenters who say similar things, but I just don’t see why that kind of judgmental and over the top rhetoric is needed. You don’t seriously think KT is unconcerned with the country her children will live in. That’s just a transparently false accusation. It’s not about criticism – I understand that I’m in the minority in my irritation with Biden. It’s how you (vous not tu) choose easy false attacks instead of taking the time to form a reasonable evidence-based critical argument.
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You’re right about this being a time to make sacrifices. Cheap personal attacks seem even more inappropriate than they normally do.

Biden is the actual President, after all.

…and STOP BLAMING DEMOCRATS for Republican lies and media water-carrying. We already have Republicans and the media for that.

“You don’t seriously think KT is unconcerned with the country her children will live in.”
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It seems that way sometimes. Maybe its that she feels her family is untouchable by this economic calamity…that kind of distance from consequences usually produces the provincial attitude she’s been displaying. KT’s fair game. Rose, these are dire times…I mean violence in the streets level dire. The media continues to treat it like a game. I saw Kyra Phillips talking w/ that woman at the Dow about the job losses…she was giggling. I wanted to kill her.

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pluk: In sum, three people acted like idiots…
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I get Blitzer, and Biden pulled a number from his nether regions, yes…but I’m not seeing how you lump Axelrod into your idiot count.
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Oh, it’s the Hillary thing again, isn’t it? Yes, pluk; if Hillary Clinton were President, no one in her administration or on teevee would ever say or do anything questionable, the right wingers would cower quietly in fear, and flowers would bloom all year long.
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And we’d all have ponies, lots and lots of ponies.
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Eventually you’re gonna have to let go of your anger, or that’s all that you’ll have remaining.
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…and there is nothing wrong with Karen pointing that out.
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I thought the post was just about Biden.

“You don’t seriously think KT is unconcerned with the country her children will live in.”
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I do and I’d bet that Dee does as well. But she did ask a perfectly reasonable and important question (for any political reporter): “what are you going to say to your children 20 years from now when they ask you and they will, what did you do to help the situation mommy?”
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If I were KT, I’d want the answer to be something like: “I did my best to help the citizens of this country understand what was happening” (see How Bad Is It?) not: “I ridiculed the Vice President, giving ammunition to his political enemies during a time of severe political and economic crisis.”

Why is everyone expected to make sacrifices except the media. The rest of us have to tighten our belts and you and your brethren get to continue with your tomfoolery?
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To be fair, there are all those newspapers shutting down – by no means are they immune to current economic conditions.
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It’s just that we don’t see Stupendous Moron Kristol and Glenn “The F–king Retard” Beck get canned. They get to blather on completely without consequences.

“Oh, it’s the Hillary thing again, isn’t it? Yes, pluk; if Hillary Clinton were President, no one in her administration or on teevee would ever say or do anything questionable, the right wingers would cower quietly in fear, and flowers would bloom all year long.”
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Two lovely words: Mark Penn

“I do and I’d bet that Dee does as well.”
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That should be: “I don’t and I’d bet that Dee doesn’t either.” Double negatives always screw me up.

If I were KT, I’d want the answer to be something like: “I did my best to help the citizens of this country understand what was happening” (see How Bad Is It?) not: “I ridiculed the Vice President, giving ammunition to his political enemies during a time of severe political and economic crisis.”
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shepherdwong, with a couple of substitutions – maybe cutting the word economic and adding a reference to national security – that could have been written by any Bush supporter from 2002-8.
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It seems that way sometimes. Maybe its that she feels her family is untouchable by this economic calamity…that kind of distance from consequences usually produces the provincial attitude she’s been displaying.
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Actually KT is closer to the economic crisis than many of us: she’s in a highly unstable industry and her brother has kidney disease but no health insurance. Look, you may have a hard time understanding KT’s journalistic choices in light of the severity of the economic situation. But instead of trying to understand them, or even concluding that understanding them is not that important, you’ve decided on a cruel and implausible explanation: she just doesn’t give a d–n because she’s a bad mother or she’s so rich that her family is invulnerable.

So in this tentative agreement, what ended up being cut? no doubt things that are actually useful like food stamps.

“shepherdwong, with a couple of substitutions – maybe cutting the word economic and adding a reference to national security – that could have been written by any Bush supporter from 2002-8.”
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And…?

Oh, I see.

A Bush supporter would be lying if they said they wanted their fellow citizens to understand what was happening, and they’d be lying if they said we in a severe nation security crisis. Also, giving ammunition to Dick Cheney’s political enemies would have been good for the truth, good for the country, and, possibly, for Dick Cheney’s hunting buddies.

I’m with Rose, though I’ve taken a pg. from Dee and co. often enough (and I’m afraid Amy Sullivan doesn’t make me want to be a better person). Bottom line: We all loathe the media, and KT, as someone decent enough to genuinely engage with us (the rabble), is an unfortunate conduit for that loathing. We project the failings of the entire, thank-god-dying, institution onto her. Venting as a nice distraction from our own impotence. So, while there are plenty of worthy candidates for untempered scorn and, yes, even personal vitriol (e.g. Hannity having a stroke on national TV–must see), I’d not say KT is among them.
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But there’s also something about if you’re not part of the solution… In the end, I don’t know how you can be a straight journalist in this day and age–at least in the political arena. Perhaps when the primacy of cable was not in place, perhaps when people actually read more than what occupies their cell-screens. Now, it honestly looks like a convenient cop-out. A comfortable justification for maintaining one’s position (for how long–ask Jay Carney), a way to hold together pieces of a damaged conscience, knowing how corrupt our media has become–how poorly it serves the people’s needs. All the while the gash from that iceberg has rended the entire ship of state.

“So, while there are plenty of worthy candidates for untempered scorn and, yes, even personal vitriol (e.g. Hannity having a stroke on national TV–must see), I’d not say KT is among them.”
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Agreed. But fair criticism isn’t scorn or vitriol. Ridiculing Democrats is good beltway sport and all but anything that contributes to Republican mischief right now is a particularly dangerous thing. And, quite frankly, I’m sick to death of it.

Here’s my one point of contention with KT: Her insistence that pundits don’t really matter, and the related implication that how a new story is framed doesn’t really matter. Or that if it does matter, that’s a subject for “media critics” to discuss and not the reporters doing the actual reporting.
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From where I sit on the outside, there is a bee line from GOP talking points to pundits, and then from pundits to how the stories are framed by journalists. Some of the stupider things that you see posted here (not so much by KT, but by others who shall remain nameless) originated either with Limbaugh or Boehner, and got picked up by the cable bloviators, and are now part of the day-to-day reporting, because so much “reporting” is of the “he-said-she-said” variety.
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Karen’s recommendation is to turn off the TV. But that only works if everybody does it. Personally, I don’t willingly watch Hannity or Wolf Blitzer or Larry King (why is he on TV, anyway?) or Matthews; they all suck. But I think Glenn Greenwald is right when he says that, to a large extent, these people control the terms of the public debate.
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That’s not an excuse for personal insults (mea culpa again). Even reasoned discourse probably won’t do any good. Fine, whatever. And I hope the one at Swampland doesn’t drive Karen out of the comments section, because she’s a good egg, and I’ve enjoyed her interaction down here in the comments section.

I don’t think she was ridiculing Joe Biden.

Oh, I see.

A Bush supporter would be lying if they said they wanted their fellow citizens to understand what was happening, and they’d be lying if they said we in a severe nation security crisis. Also, giving ammunition to Dick Cheney’s political enemies would have been good for the truth, good for the country, and, possibly, for Dick Cheney’s hunting buddies.
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Your argument was too “We Must All Support The President Because The World is Scary” for my tastes. (Also to be fair I doubt that most Republicans were lying when they said those things. Sometimes people are just wrong.) I’m not opposed to ridicule – I’m opposed to unfair ridicule and obsessing on ridiculing people at the expense of talking about more urgent issues. I didn’t see the ridicule as being particularly unfair, and since KT clearly spent very little time on this post I’m not worried that she is neglecting more important work. Those long carefully written Amy Sullivan posts that are based on oblique insults of Democrats and address nothing substantive are far more offensive, IMO.
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BTW, is it just me or has the preview stopped working?

I wrote: And I hope the one
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That should say: I hope the tone at Swampland …

Here’s my one point of contention with KT: Her insistence that pundits don’t really matter, and the related implication that how a new story is framed doesn’t really matter. Or that if it does matter, that’s a subject for “media critics” to discuss and not the reporters doing the actual reporting.
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Art Pepper, I agree with most of that. I’m more understanding about the “media critic” thing, but I agree that pundits do frame stories, which in turn helps shape policy.
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And preview is working again…

You don’t seriously think KT is unconcerned with the country her children will live in.”
Yes I do. If she had a brain in her head she would see that Time’s days are numbered. My husband bought a copy in October and it had about ten ads and was maybe thirty pages in total. Her husband works for a paper that is about to go under. When she can no longer pay for private school for her children she may come to realize that she should have taken her job more seriously but until then she is in a state of denial. Expect more puff pieces until Time folds.

I will say that KT’s distinction between dirty cable media whores and the fine upstanding citizens doing the people’s work here in print media is blurred at best. It’s either a) disingenuous or b) a comfortable defense mechanism. Look at how terrible they are, the foaming at the mouth goofball-entertainers on Fox, CNN et al. Meanwhile, I hope you all can ignore how we in the “liberal” print media have turned away from or enabled rightist excess over the last decade, and/or been willing to torch anyone who challenges the estab-status quo.

KT– since you insist on posting stories about nothing and you think cable chatter is about nothing please the clip of Rachel Maddox demanding that only truthful statements be allowed in the debate. This way we can both get what we want.
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SG you got that clip about bull pucky?

Rose- For the record stating my perceptions of an action is not an accusation. Selfishly, it would be better for my business for the media to continue behaving the way they do so I can predict their actions for my clients and appear prescient. But as an American and parent I am putting my country first by sounding the alarm to anyone and as often I can. KT doesn’t get a pass just because she responds.
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Moreover, I am not asking her to support Obama, I am asking her to pursue the truth. My bad, evidently I mistakenly thought the pursuit of truth in the face of government obfuscation was the thinking behind the 1st amendment.
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You know this unintentional singling me out seems to be a pattern with you. The next time you decide to accuse me of anything stop and reread.

Moyers had a superb segment this evening with Greenwald and Rosen that rather neatly explains the world KT lives in.
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NYU journalism professor and PressThink blogger Jay Rosen and political journalist and Salon.com blogger Glenn Greenwald explain to Bill Moyers that the press, once seen as an agent for change — the "fourth estate" checking power in America — has become thoroughly enmeshed in the establishment, and has a vested interest in preserving it.

I just think it’s easy to get distracted from what’s crucial by focusing on Joe Biden. He will always say what’s on his mind. He doesn’t seem to always have an “appropriate” switch! Of couse, that’s also kind of endearing.

Dee, if I understand correctly, you’re just frustrated with all of the bull getting in the way of what really matters. I didn’t really get an attack on KT out of what you wrote. You’re one of the more pleasant posters here.

Dee, first I’m sorry for imprecisely labeling your comment about KT and her children as an accusation. I would still say that in effect it IS an accusation, even if you feel it’s merely your perception. It’s kind of like those Amy Sullivan “Obama is opposed to killing innocent people. This feels like a departure from Democratic orthodoxy!” comments. When you share that kind of perception, you’re making an accusation whether it’s intentional or not. But I should have been clearer about the other possible meanings of your comment.
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Second, I’m really not targeting you. I’ve noticed this harsher and less reality-based tone in some of the commentary directed against KT lately, and I just hadn’t had time to post on it in-depth until now. I have an insane workload that I had to give up on this evening because I have a truly horrible flu. It’s true that we’ve had some “debates” recently but you’re the one who has been… less focused on finding common ground.
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On a broader scale, Swampland works best when people give each other the benefit of the doubt. That includes not suggesting that someone is unconcerned with the country their children will live in, or that someone believes in arbitrary one-strike rules and the impossibility of moral improvement. It’s just not helpful and rather unpleasant. If we try to interpret comments in the most d—ing way possible, we might as well be in DC! Honestly, I don’t see the point of Swampland if it’s just another place where people talk about politics through the medium of personal insults and distorted descriptions of other people’s points of view. It’s also strange to have manufactured conflicts when people really do have sincere disagreements, such as on how to get out of Iraq, what to do in Pakistan and Afghanistan, how to improve the educational system and how to handle climate change.
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Anyway I’m sorry again for not explaining my choice of the term “accusation,” and I hope that you no longer feel I’m singling you out. I had actually totally forgotten about our disagreement on Daschle when I wrote that post; I had been intending to make that general point and your comment was the first I saw when I had time to make it.

One thing I forgot to add…
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But as an American and parent I am putting my country first by sounding the alarm to anyone and as often I can. KT doesn’t get a pass just because she responds.
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Moreover, I am not asking her to support Obama, I am asking her to pursue the truth. My bad, evidently I mistakenly thought the pursuit of truth in the face of government obfuscation was the thinking behind the 1st amendment.
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I don’t disagree with any of this. No one gets a “pass” for responding. And needless to say, we agree about the intention of the First Amendment. In fact, I probably agree with 90% of the SUBSTANTIVE media criticisms on Swampland. I’m just opposed to masking substantive criticisms about the triviality and inaccuracy of the media with a trivial and inaccurate style of complaining. On a purely tactical level, it’s undermining some strong and valid arguments.

Rainbow thanks at least I’m sure you actually read my post. Rose has a habit of drawing her own conclusions based on info that was not included in my post.
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Rose– All I can suggest is that you take a deep breath and read before you write. In
all of my discussions with KT my comments focus solely on political gamesmanship and the media’s role in it. Frankly,because the 1st amendment prohibits regulation of the press we have to rely on them to police themselves. If KT and her colleagues are not doing the job in a manner that demonstrates a healthy respect for the responsibility that is inherent in such a fundamental right, I am going to call her on it.
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As for you I have mostly responded to you respectfully. But understand I don’t generally have a great deal of patience with stupidity or intellectual dishonesty. Either respond to what I actually say or don’t respond.

This Just Indy:

http://yhoo.client.shareholder.com/directions.cfm

Biden and Klein have both been diverted to Sunnyvale for an emergency Meet Up on how to make the web suck even more for the shareholders.

Flem at 11…

Rose– All I can suggest is that you take a deep breath and read before you write. In
all of my discussions with KT my comments focus solely on political gamesmanship and the media’s role in it.
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Dee, That’s not what you’re doing. That’s the whole point. Just to recap this is not focusing solely on political gamesmanship and the media’s role in it: KT–I wonder if you even care about the country you children will live in. Why is everyone expected to make sacrifices except the media. The rest of us have to tighten our belts and you and your brethren get to continue with your tomfoolery?
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Give me a break, what are you going to say to your children 20 years from now when they ask you and they will, what did you do to help the situation mommy? You going to tell them well nothing honey because what I do for a living really isn’t that important.
That’s a groundless personal attack.
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If KT and her colleagues are not doing the job in a manner that demonstrates a healthy respect for the responsibility that is inherent in such a fundamental right, I am going to call her on it.
What’s the point of that comment? You know perfectly well that I don’t disagree. I’ve criticized journalists here and elsewhere numerous times. Once again, there’s an Amy Sullivan-style suggestion that I DON’t think people should criticize the media.
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As for you I have mostly responded to you respectfully. But understand I don’t generally have a great deal of patience with stupidity or intellectual dishonesty. Either respond to what I actually say or don’t respond.
I guess we should not have any further discussions. It’s strange that we BOTH feel the other one is responding to things we’ve never said (and in my case would never say in a million years: Rose its okay if you believe that there are some mistakes that should weigh you down for life, but I feel that if you can never be rehabilitated then what is the point of learning from your mistakes?). It’s strange because we agree on virtually everything. If WE can’t get along it’s not a good sign. Because I DON’T think stupidity is your problem, I have to conclude that intellectual dishonesty is the problem.
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Which brings me to my final point (perhaps my final point here on Swampland – I wish everyone the best!). The real problem with these over the top personal attacks on KT and other Swamplanders is that they’re dishonest. You don’t sincerely think that I’m opposed to media criticism or have a fundamentally different view of the First Amendment. You don’t sincerely wonder if KT cares about the country her children will grow up in, as is shown by the fact you’ve backed away from that suggestion in your later comments. It’s the dishonesty that’s the problem, not the (quite moderate) level of venom. Cincinnatus is far more venomous in his comments but he’s intellectually honest. When he wonders whether KT cares about the country her children will grow up in, he’s being sincere. He was even being sincere when he said my brain doesn’t work correctly. It’s possible to have a productive discussion with Cincinnatus because you don’t have to worry that after writing several reasonable detailed posts you’ll discover at the end of the day he’s attributed absurd views to you that you’ve never expressed or thought.
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I won’t suggest a deep breath, but I would suggest asking yourself this before you attribute an absurd view to someone: “Am I right? Did they really say that?” If you find yourself making an argument in response to someone else’s comment that no reasonable person could disagree with – e.g. people who have made mistakes on their taxes can be rehabilitated – you might ask yourself whether they’re really saying what you think they’re saying.
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Anyway here’s the link to your Daschle comment I quoted: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/02/01/the-real-daschle-problem/?apage=4

Okay Rose it’s clear that you can’t connect the dots on your own so here is my final attempt. Picture our country like a big house we all live in but a few of us on the top floor could care less about the state of the rest of us as long as they get to keep the rooms with the view. Now those of us down below would keep the house from burning down if we knew what was going on but those in charge of getting out the information know that if they tell the truth they won’t get to hang out with the folks on the top floor anymore.
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In my book KT is shirking her duty to get out the truth but in her defense she says being truth tellers is highly overrated. She tells those of us in the basement where we can already feel the flames that what she does makes no difference. Even though we can prove that her actions help the folks on the top floor to burn the house down she denies that her action have consequences.
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Now reminding her what’s at stake is fairgame and reminding her that she and her family still live in the house is also fair. If she continues to act in a manner that benefits the folks upstairs with the torch then asking her if she cares about the house that we all live in I’d both fair and logical.
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Of course KT’s response is usually if the guy with the match scares you just close your eyes and he’ll vanish. In the mean time while the rest of prepare to live with the consequences shell continue hanging out upstairs. Twenty years from now how will we view this moment, how will history judge the truthtellers who ignored the truth.

Rose – thank you so much for your comments about the tone re KT on here lately. For some reason I feel a little sheepish when I defend her, because I haven’t found a good way to say that it’s not about her per se. As usual, you’ve been much more thoughtful and articulate than I’ve been managing to be about it.
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I’m always aware that this is an “extra” thing that Karen does, and is an opportunity for her to get feedback but also an opportunity for us to engage directly with a member of the “media” in a way there are very, very, few other opportunities to do.
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I’m truly baffled by the way in which KT is made to carry the sins of all the media, and commenters assume things about her that she herself has said are not true. I like it best when this is a reality-based blog, and we challenge each other vigorously about our expressed points of view and whether we have facts to back up what we say. You are right that this place works best when we give one another the benefit of the doubt.
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I think it’s also important to remember that the blog is not the place that Karen does her reporting, and it’s seems pretty unreasonable to me to demand that she report the blog just because she’s a reporter.

APPEASEMENT 101
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090207/pl_nm/us_security

.. … ..

= NEVILE CHAMBERLITE ACCOMPLISHED =

“I think it’s also important to remember that the blog is not the place that Karen does her reporting, and it’s seems pretty unreasonable to me to demand that she report the blog just because she’s a reporter.”
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It’s not unreasonable to expect anyone to not be destructive of an important national conversation. All week, the GOP and their the water-carriers in the MSM (I don’t count Karen among them) have been spouting ridiculous nonsense about economics and the stimulus (oh, sorry, “spending”) legislation with all seriousness and credulity, even having the cluelessness or the effrontery to make the President respond to their stupidity. Joe Biden speaks 10 seconds of truth to an audience whom he decided to inform accurately about our prospects for success, and it’s treated as a silly gaffe. And so it goes, the conversation among our political and opinion leaders – and the national conversation along with it – just gets dumber and more detached from reality. That intellectually bankrupt conversation has everything to do with how we got eight years of George Bush, six years of complete Republican dominance of government and why we’re letting the anti-government party of manifestly failed economic ideology and policy that put us where we are set the terms of how people who actually understand what to do are allowed to try to save us?

Rose: “Which brings me to my final point (perhaps my final point here on Swampland – I wish everyone the best!)”
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I’m probably not the best person to say this, but if so that is a real shame. One of the few voices on here worth reading. It’s healthy to disagree, but someone calling you “stupid” is absurd. There are voices here not worth acknowledging (I’m sure I’m one of them to many)–engage with who you want and ignore the rest.

[...] there are very legitimate reasons to oppose the stimulus bill. No one knows if it will work, and the Joe Biden gaffe that the chattering classes were worked up about a few weeks ago was a gaffe precisely because it [...]