Size and Scope

I read your piece this morning JNS. Good reporting but I get the sense that they are driving for “bipartisan” just for the sake of being “bipartisan”.
I hope there isn’t a trade of quality for appearances.

The important thing, I think, is that the “centrists” seek to reduce all that “wasteful” spending that actually serves to, oh, what’s the word, ah yes – “stimulate” the economy, and are ignoring all those new tax cuts the repugs added in the interest of bipartisanship that they actually have no interest in and which are not stimulative.
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Ah, Centrists. What did atrios say about centrists just a few minutes ago? An impossible project is convincing journalists that contemporary "centrism" is a clubbish ideology which is usually not, as communicated, some happy medium between "left" and "right."

I hear that Snowe and Collins have full voice mail boxes. Elections have consequences.

this morning’s dismal job numbers should help add some pressure on the Senate to get something passed today
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Ha ha! That’s funny. So the sticking point is that they didn’t realize we’re in a recession?

It’s especially irritating to listen to this nonsense from Ted Stevens’ party, the party of the V-22 Osprey and the bridge to nowhere.

Obama is way too wishy-washy here.
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Simply put, his “there may be provisions in the bill that need to be left out and some that need to be added” is an invitation to the GOP to further politicize the bill, and change the subject from the need for the bill itself to what is wrong with it and needs to be changed.
And because of his emphasis on the size of the package, it encourages the GOP to continue to hammer the “tax cuts instead of pork-barrel spending” theme.
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What he should have said is “the bill may not be perfect, but we don’t have time to discuss whether each provision in the bill”.

jay, via a commenter at the other Klein’s place, those full email boxes are not helping move this forward in the right direction:
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I wrote this over at Yglesias too. Having lived in Maine, I can tell you that Susan Collins is getting tons of angry calls from her constituents who just can’t believe that spending money is the way to get out of a financial crisis. This is just the opposite of what most Mainers are currently doing, and many others have been doing their entire lives. It is in their DNA to hunker down and stop spending when times are tough, which they have been for a long time (if not their entire lives) in much of Maine. What this bill needs is a great communicator to explain to folks that what is good for a family’s financial situation is not what is good for the country as a whole. This is totally counterintuitive for millions of people who are struggling to pay for heat, food, and health care. The Repubs know this–they are great at scoring points by catering to gut instincts. It is hard to beat that with an intellectual message. Posted by: zyxw | February 6, 2009 10:33 AM

The so called “Centrists” are optimistic they will be able to cut programs that benefit women and children. It’s too bad they didn’t show the same budgetary concerns while Bush and Cheney were bankruptig our country.

pluk, Obama may not have been as specific as you wanted in JNS’ quote, but he has been abundantly clear over the last couple of days about the shape of the package. As he did last night:
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"[W]hen we announced the bill, you remember — this is only about, what, two weeks ago? When we announced the framework — and we were complimented by Republicans, saying, ‘Boy, this is a balanced package, we’re pleasantly surprised." And suddenly, what was a balanced package needs to be put out of balance?"
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Obama added that there’s simply no reason to re-embrace "the same policies that for the last eight years doubled the national debt and threw our economy into a tailspin." He added, "I don’t care whether you’re driving a hybrid or an SUV. If you’re headed for a cliff, you have to change direction. That’s what the American people called for in November, and that’s what we intend to deliver."

JNS…who exactly are the “gang of 18″?
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progressive Democrats need to get together and say that they will NOT support the bill if it includes cuts to education, mass transit, or aid to state government. Letting a small group of Democrats from GOP states determine our economic future is sheer insanity, and Senators who actually represent Democratic values have to stop allowing these DINOs to control the Senate.

You wrote “Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid”. Have we all forgotten who’s really in power?

formerlyrainbow68, Ooops. I fixed. JNS

Thanks! Now if only everyone else can remember!

pluk, Obama may not have been as specific as you wanted in JNS’ quote, but he has been abundantly clear over the last couple of days about the shape of the package. As he did last night:
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then he’s sending mixed messages, isn’t he?
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That’s a violation of a central tenet of messaging — consistency.
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again, this gets back to fact that Obama never submitted his own legislative proposal; by relying on Congress, he tried to have it both ways, and is now stuck with the worst of both worlds — not merely demagogic and united GOP opposition, but members of his own party trying to make major cuts from essential spending.
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So instead of Obama and the Democratic leadership having a consistent position from which to negotiate from, you’ve got Reid — who is from a state that is usually Republican — letting Democrats Senators from other traditionally GOP states set the agenda.
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Obama walked into the Oval Office with more than enough power to get a majority of both the house and senate to approve whatever he offered. (and the best thing that could have happened would have been an actual filibuster by the GOP in the Senate…) He’s frittering away the power to achieve real change — not the illusory change in ‘process’, but the change in policy that people want — in order to appear “bipartisan”. It may (or may not) be good for his image, but its bad for the country to continue to let the same people who ran us into the ground continue to run things in Congress.

this morning’s dismal job numbers should help add some pressure on the Senate to get something passed today

At some point, when will these people recognize that the Republicans don’t care about the consequences of their policies, except as it affects them politically. It’s clear that their strategy here is to make the economy as bad as they can make it, so that Democratic prospects in the next election are worsened. They are saying things that make absolutely no sense.

The presumption that they care about unemployment, or, ftm, whether you can safely feed peanut butter to your children or you can believe that a AAA security is a safe investment is simply false. They do not care about governance. All they care about is power, and cronies.

[Reid] went on to threaten a weekend “test vote” if an agreement is not hammered out today – a marked retreat from his boast yesterday on the floor that he had the 60 votes and he wouldn’t necessarily wait forever for the Gang of 18 to come to an agreement
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Hey, what a surprise.
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Harry Reid is a worthless git and he should be publically de-pantsed every day he retains the office of Senate Majority Leader.

Thanks wvng. Being from Maine I should have realized the possibility.

Cliff: I hate to say it, but Reid is a trembly paper tiger at best. I wish Obama had someone more worthy to assist him.

We all do, Rainbow, we all do.

Obama better start acting like Bush soon! Total dickitude is the only way to get things done!

At some point, when will these people recognize that the Republicans don’t care about the consequences of their policies, except as it affects them politically.
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jay, the GOP thinks that their policies are the correct ones. They aren’t opposed for the sake of being opposed.
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Nor do they have any real control over the situation — at least they wouldn’t if Obama showed the necessary leadership here. With GOP Senators up for re-election in states like Pennsylvania, Iowa, North Carolina, and Louisiana, there is no way that people like Specter and Grassley could withstand the public pressure, and continue to support the “same old failed GOP policies”
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I hate to say it, but Reid is a trembly paper tiger at best. I wish Obama had someone more worthy to assist him.
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I hate to break it to you, but Reid’s spinelessness is precisely what Obama ordered. Reid is the guy who “achieves bipartisan consensus” by abandoning Democratic Party priniciples, which is exactly what Obama is all about.
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WE NEED A REAL FILIBUSTER! REID NEEDS TO FORCE IT.
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Yeah, I know. I was dreaming.
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A “test vote.” Goody.

atrios: I know I should never stop being surprised at how stupid Republicans want our political debate to be, but I just can’t.
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pluk: jay, the GOP thinks that their policies are the correct ones. They aren’t opposed for the sake of being opposed. I don’t know if you are correct or not, but I don’t think that their thinking they are right and being opposed “for the sake of being opposed” are mutually exclusive. Either way, the simple fact that they don’t understand that spending IS stimulus should mean that no one should take them seriously.

I hate to break it to you, but Reid’s spinelessness is precisely what Obama ordered. Reid is the guy who “achieves bipartisan consensus” by abandoning Democratic Party priniciples, which is exactly what Obama is all about.
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You, uh, you remember that Reid’s been in charge (well, “in charge”) for the past two years, right? Two years that Obama has not, in fact, been the president?
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I mean, if Obama really could travel back in time and force him to be a spineless wimp, I would actually be impressed with that.

ay, the GOP thinks that their policies are the correct ones. They aren’t opposed for the sake of being opposed.
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If that were true, they’d be supporting infrastructure projects enthusiastically, as they did when they were setting earmark records. Moreover, it’s clear to any sentient American that these policies will not reduce unemployment, because they didn’t do so when implemented at a time when we were closer to full capacity. Cutting taxes is not going make Americans start buying cars, or books, again.
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Nor do they have any real control over the situation — at least they wouldn’t if Obama showed the necessary leadership here. With GOP Senators up for re-election in states like Pennsylvania, Iowa, North Carolina, and Louisiana, there is no way that people like Specter and Grassley could withstand the public pressure, and continue to support the “same old failed GOP policies”
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I continue to wait until this process is over before judging the efficacy of the strategy. I happen to agree with most of what you’ve said, but Obama is trying a different angle, and I think we can wait until see the result.

I think what P-luk want’s to say is Hillary would have had Reid on a short leash like a b!tch goddess headmistress. Sorry if that description sent little starbursts out of the monitors of you Nancy Photenhauer fetishists…and you know who you are.
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Anyone catch Krugman schooling the Morning Joke crew? Good stuff:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/vp/29051511#29051501

Either way, the simple fact that they don’t understand that spending IS stimulus should mean that no one should take them seriously.
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See, here is the problem. What if Obama’s stimulus plan was entirely based on defense spending and jail construction? Would it be a good idea?
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Now, the fact is that the GOP’s view of what makes the best stimulus is insane, and should not be taken seriously. But in order to get that message across, oppositional leadership is necessary, and the media looks to the White House for that oppositional leadership. And when that leadership isn’t there, they report Republican nonsense as if it makes perfect sense (after all, if it didn’t make sense, wouldn’t the White House have been saying so all along?)
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You can’t change the way Washington works without changing the way the media works. The media loves Obama, but it isn’t going to change the way it does its job, which is centered on conflict and simplifies all issues into two competing ideas.
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And if you think Obama understands how the media works because he won the election, keep in mind that this dynamic of conflict and two-sides was inherent in the general election, and made his primary win possible. (The media presented the primary as Obama v Hillary; from the moment Obama announced, all other candidates were marginalized, despite the fact that Edwards was well ahead of Obama not merely nationally, but in the early states as well.)
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You can’t rely on the media to tell the american people that the GOP is full of cr*p, you can only rely on them to report that Team Obama is saying that the GOP is full of cr*p. And when Team Obama acts like the GOP isn’t full of cr*p, the media isn’t going to contradict the White House.

i can think of a thousand of dirty jokes about the size and scope of the stimulus package.

If that were true, they’d be supporting infrastructure projects enthusiastically, as they did when they were setting earmark records. Moreover, it’s clear to any sentient American that these policies will not reduce unemployment, because they didn’t do so when implemented at a time when we were closer to full capacity. Cutting taxes is not going make Americans start buying cars, or books, again.
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jay, the GOP isn’t doing much criticism of the infrastructure spending as a stimulus (although they are using the fact that most of the infrastructure spending won’t come on-line to deal with the immediate problem. And that’s a valid criticism, IMHO, as long as we continue to frame the discussion in terms of a “stimulus”). What the GOP is going after is the spending on services (like education, mass transit, etc), especially the money that will go to states that will be used to plug the massive holes in their budgets that would otherwise require huge cuts in spending on services.

Are the Republicans hypocrites? Of course they are — now that they are in the minority and have to beg for scraps of pork, earmarks are a bad thing. But if the white house doesn’t call them on their hypocrisy, don’t expect the media to do so.

I think what P-luk want’s to say is Hillary would have had Reid on a short leash like a b!tch goddess headmistress
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while I agree with the overall sentiments, that’s not exactly how I would have put it.
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Indeed, Clinton’s willingness/eagerness to take charge is probably why Reid and Pelosi worked so hard behind the scenes to get Obama the nomination. There would be no vacuum at the top in this economic debate right now — we’d know exactly what Hillary Clinton wanted in this bill, and what she didn’t want in it — and while she’d take something less than exactly what she wanted, she would have fought for her proposal.

“we’d know exactly what Hillary Clinton wanted in this bill, and what she didn’t want in it ”
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I’m just not that convinced that she’s that divorced from the kind of pro corporate thinking that got us here in the first place. So I’m not sure this would’ve been an improvement. It was her husband that signed Glass-Steagel after all, and I know she’s her own person but she’s free market status quo CW through and through from what I’ve seen.

I continue to wait until this process is over before judging the efficacy of the strategy.
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the writing is already on the wall. A bill was always going to pass — the only question is what kind of bill, and how that bill would be perceived.
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and the bill that is going to pass is going to include massive unnecessary and economically unwise tax cuts, and a whole lot of spending that the GOP have already made the public think is “pork”. It will contain insufficient funds to prevent massive layoffs and reductions in services in state and local government — making it that much more difficult to achieve a turnaround before the 2010 elections.
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The media will present the bill as a ‘victory’ for Obama’s “bi-partisan” approach, but that kind of thing is transitory at best. What is really important is how this whole thing feeds into the 2010 elections — and its pretty obvious that the GOP has achieved a great deal because of the way that this has been handled by the White House.

This is what Nelson and Collins when they mean “size and scope:” Cut funding for police, fire departments, poor kids and women, and science. Give that money to the defense industry.

The “moderates” don’t care about the size of the bill. They just want to make sure that the Pentagon gets even MORE money for useless weapons systems.

Total Reductions: $80 billion

Eliminations:

Head Start, Education for the Disadvantaged, School improvement, Child Nutrition, Firefighters, Transportation Security Administration, Coast Guard, Prisons, COPS Hiring, Violence Against Women, NASA, NSF, Western Area Power Administration, CDC, Food Stamps

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Reductions:

Public Transit $3.4 billion, School Construction $60 billion

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Increases:

Defense operations and procurement, STAG Grants, Brownfields, Additional transportation funding

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/stimulus-package/latest-cuts-to-the-stim-package-head-start-child-nutrition-food-stamps-public-transit/

WHY ARE WE CUTTING PUBLIC TRANSIT AND FOOD STAMPS?????

Also, why is the mainstream media not asking republicans about their stance on the capping of exec pay??

I’m just not that convinced that she’s that divorced from the kind of pro corporate thinking that got us here in the first place. So I’m not sure this would’ve been an improvement. It was her husband that signed Glass-Steagel after all, and I know she’s her own person but she’s free market status quo CW through and through from what I’ve seen.

The Glass Steagall repeal bill passed the house by 343-86, and the Senate by 90-8. Not much point in vetoing it, because the veto would have been over-ridden, and reported as a political defeat for Clinton.
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As for what she would have included in her proposal — my guess is that she would have started with something very similar to what was introduced in the House minus the tax cuts — and then “compromised” with the GOP by allowing one. But it would have been one that was structured the way that she wanted (temporary tax credits).
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I think she’d also have been savvy enough to let Pelosi introduce the repeal of the Bush fat cat tax cuts as part of her bill, and try to make that the most contentious issue — putting the GOP in the position of defending the filthy rich at a time when the rich aren’t exactly popular.

“putting the GOP in the position of defending the filthy rich at a time when the rich aren’t exactly popular.”
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They’re already doing that w/ CEO pay limits, whether the media reports it……BWAAAAAHAAAHAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAA HA HA HEEEEE. Sorry. I know how ridiculous that must have sounded. I’ll try again: If somehow the American people become aware of this, it might work to the Dems benefit. Media reporting….heh heh, hooooooo boy.

Sounds like Obama wants the line item veto after all.

This Lush In:

Leo Paschetta testified today that Bernard Madoff was a Republican plant.

Then he took the rest of the afternoon off for Ellen.

BTW, thanx for educating me about the Congressional vote tallies on Glass-Steagall, I wasn’t aware they had veto proof majorities. Again, learning more in the comments section than in Time itself. Imagine that!

They’re already doing that w/ CEO pay limits, whether the media reports it……BWAAAAAHAAAHAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAA HA HA HEEEEE. Sorry. I know how ridiculous that must have sounded. I’ll try again: If somehow the American people become aware of this, it might work to the Dems benefit. Media reporting….heh heh, hooooooo boy.
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If you want the media to report it, get Obama to go medieval on their a$$es about it. The media reports on conflict – that’s what sells newspapers and provides audiences for advertisers.

hulu, stop whining.
You lost already.
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Now sit down, junior! You’ve had your AB’s, and you’re oh fer. It’s time for real Americans like the ones at bat to get us back in this game.

“If you want the media to report it, get Obama to go medieval on their a$$es about it. ”
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You letting the PUMA part of you brain take over completely. If Obama went medieval, THAT’S what the media would report on. Come on, really? The story wouldn’t be ‘wow the GOP is actually defending CEO pay’, no, it would be ‘wow what happened to Obama’s promise of bi-partisanship?’. Lots of tut tutting, no analysis of CEO pay caps and the people fighting against it. You know it’s true.

i’m absolutely a nerd for spotting this, but sen. mccaskill just posted this on twitter:

“meeting with Ben (Nelson) in 5 minutes Hopefully this will be the last ‘meeting of the moderates.’”

i love elected officials who update me with every move.

And to prove my point the chick from CitizenJane just reported that Obama’s new tone yesterday means that the Republicans are going to back down from their heretofore bipartisan rhetoric and start pushing back. Case closed.

And to prove my point the chick from CitizenJane just reported on CNN that Obama’s new tone yesterday means that the Republicans are going to back down from their heretofore bipartisan rhetoric and start pushing back. Case closed.

“Lots of tut tutting, no analysis of CEO pay caps and the people fighting against it. You know it’s true.”
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two things.
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1) while the talking heads would focus on the “shift in tone”, they’d be playing the clip of Obama “going medieval” over and over — and that would have an impact.
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2) As long as Obama stayed in “leadership/calling BS when he sees it” mode, the “change in tone” nonsense would get old very fast.

“while the talking heads would focus on the “shift in tone”, they’d be playing the clip of Obama “going medieval” over and over — and that would have an impact.”
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Well my studies of the Great Moron Majority would indicate that they are extremely malleable minds, susceptible to the interpretations of our esteemed pundit class. Not sure you’re correct here.

[...] barked at press this morning. “We’re still working on it. I can’t talk right now.” Time’s section tracking the package’s [...]

More liberal failures taxing me for more liberal failures…

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090208/ap_on_go_co/stimulus_higher_education

The percentage of Pell Grant recips that NEVER GRADUATE is freaking SKY HIGH.

This is monstrously stupid, wasteful spending, not based on merit, but the perceived needs of coddled academic staffers that are significantly anti-military, anti-business (source of all tax revenue), anti-reality, and of course anti-American.

We’re getting to the point where the IRS will have to open a new Service Center just to handle the influx of tax protest cases that refuse to pay for this and most of the other BS in the Obama 5 Minute Bankruptcy Assurance Plan (which will assure the nation’s fiscal frigidity for 10 years, at least, if put into play).

There’s no sense on these massive projects — as the economy will soon enough recover even without guvment meddling.

Absolutely abhorrent behavior, by the same flaming elites that brought you Fannie, Freddie, ACORN, SDS, and Bill Ayers.

Time Magazine: Anti Israel or Anti Semitic

Turkey’s Prime Minister Erdogan recently said: just because someone criticizes Israel does not mean they are anti semitic. Does this then mean that Time Magazine’s Tim McGirk is not an anti-semite? I don’t think so…. Tim has come to Israel from Iraq, a place where Sunnis and Shiites slaughter each other in the tens of thousands, where acid is thrown into the faces of children, where so many Palestinians have been threatened and attacked by Arabs that they call it: The Second Negba (catastrophe). Tim knows all this, yet he implies Israelis are: “devils” because they use phosphorus flares in their night operations. Rape is so common among Middle Eastern armies that it is almost considered “a tradition” (for example: the Turks raped Lawrence of Arabia), yet, while no Israeli has ever even been accused of rape in the last 60 years, Tim McGirk is horrified because a soldier wrote on some wall in Gaza: “you have nice underwear”. Hamas has repeatedly declared 1) It wants to destroy Israel and will not give up terrorism 2) It will never recognize the Jewish State 3) It will not abide by previous agreements, yet, in the title of his article on George Mitchell, Tim asks: “Will Israel listen?”. Egyptian border guards regularly shoot Sudanese refugees in the back only 100 meters from the freedom provided by the Israeli border, yet Tim McGirk doesn’t even mention these events. Likewise, one week ago, Hamas shot over 150 Gazan men and women in the legs “to set an example to the P.L.O.”, yet Tim does not feel the need to comment (obviously, these things aren’t as news worthy as a woman’s underwear). Time Magazine is anti Israel, Tim McGirk is an anti semite. The “time” has come to make a change: transfer Tim to Mecca or Rome.
Dror Ben Ami
Tel Aviv