Obama and the End of Torture

At the New Yorker website, Jane Mayer has a fascinating behind-the-scenes account of the evolution of candidate Barack Obama on the issue of torture, and how that resulted in the four executive orders he signed last week.

As Mayer recounts, the process began more than a year ago in Iowa, shortly before the caucuses, when Obama met privately with a handful of retired military officers:

Obama was “very excited” that day in Iowa, one participant in the off-the-record meeting recalled, “because he had just gotten polls showing that he was ahead,” but he didn’t seem particularly “comfortable” with the military delegation. The group of military men, which included retired four-star Generals Dave Maddox and Joseph Hoar, lectured Obama about the importance of being Commander-in-Chief. In particular, they warned him that every word he uttered would be taken as an order by the highest-ranking officers as well as the lowliest private. Any wiggle room for abusive interrogations, they emphasized, would be construed as permission.

Obama “asked smart questions, but didn’t seem inspired by it. He totally understood the effect that Abu Ghraib had on America’s reputation,” said the participant. But in general, “he was very businesslike. He didn’t flatter the officers,” as most of the other candidates had. In addition, Obama’s staff, the participant said, approached the meeting with the retired officers with less urgency than some of the other campaigns. “But,” in retrospect, the participant said, “it started an education process.”

Last month, several members of the same group met with both Craig, who by then was slated to become Obama’s top legal adviser, and Attorney General-designate Eric Holder. The two future Obama Administration lawyers were particularly taken with a retired four-star Marine General and conservative Republican named Charles “Chuck” Krulak. Krulak insisted that ending the Bush Administration’s coercive interrogation and detention regime was “right for America and right for the world,” a participant recalled, and promised that if the Obama Administration did what he described as “the right thing,” which he acknowledged wouldn’t be politically easy, he would personally “fly cover” for them.

Last week, as Obama signed the executive order, sixteen retired generals and flag officers from the same group did just that. Told on Monday that they were needed at the White House, they flew to the capital from as far away as California, a phalanx of square-jawed certified patriots providing cover to Obama’s announcement.

Shortly before the signing ceremony, Craig said, Obama met with the officers in the Roosevelt Room, along with Vice President Biden and several other top administration officials. “It was hugely important to the president to have the input from these military people,” Craig said, “not only because of their proven concern for protecting the American people—they’d dedicated their lives to it—but also because some had their own experience they could speak from.” Two of the officers had sons serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. One of them, retired Major General Paul Eaton, stressed that, as he put it later that day, “torture is the tool of the lazy, the stupid, and the pseudo-tough. It’s also perhaps the greatest recruiting tool that the terrorists have.” The feeling in the room, as retired Rear Admiral John Hutson later put it, “was joy, perhaps, that the country was getting back on track.”

Related Topics: Uncategorized
  • Latest on Swampland

    Image: Mark Halperin interviews Mitt Romney

    Romney Defends Bain Record, Hits Obama on Economy: ‘He Just Doesn’t Have a Clue’

    Mitt Romney lashed President Obama’s economic stewardship in an interview with TIME’s Mark Halperin on Wednesday, deflecting attacks on his years as a private equity executive and laying out how he hopes to take control of the economy as soon as he’s sworn in, should he defeat Obama in November.

    Lewis Eisenberg, Major Romney Donor, Accuses Obama Of Demonizing Wall StreetHuffPost Politics

    Image: Presidential candidate Mitt Romney

    Mother of Mitt: How Lenore Romney’s Failed Campaign Shaped the Presumptive Republican Nominee

    This week’s TIME cover story, “The Mother of the Mitt Campaign,” tells the tale of how Lenore Romney’s 1970 run for U.S. Senate may have made a bigger impression on the Republican presidential candidate than his years spent as the son of a governor. Mitt’s father lost his own presidential bid, but it was the lessons from his mother’s loss that are more instructive as Romney enters the campaign stretch.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Karen, I’m having a hard time finding that CBO report that you guys in the media are talking about, could you post the relevant parts regarding when that stimulus money hits the economy? Or post a link? This is the report I’m referencing, as reported by Time magazine:
    .


    “Not helping matters is a report from the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) that came out Tuesday, which shows that only 38% of the $350 billion in appropriated funds — which includes $274 billion for infrastructure investments — would make their way into the economy within two years of enactment.”

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!
  • Dee in Columbia MD

    “torture is the tool of the lazy, the stupid, and the pseudo-tough.”

    What part of that doesn’t seem to be a glove fit for Bush, Cheney and the neo con horde?

  • Friar Tuck

    Good for Obama. Now, let’s hope that all of the Bush plants in the CIA, DoJ, DoD, etc. actually change their way of doing “business.”

  • Matt

    Torture is easy. It’s what to do with the truly bad apples in Gitmo – and doing it within a year – that will be pure hell for the military and White House.

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

  • FlownOver

    Wait for it. Further knee-JERK criticism from the Right Fringe due in five… four…
    .
    Somebody, btw, should ask how a couple hundred Gitmo transferees are a greater threat on US soil than, say, the 3,000+ currently on U.S. Death Rows. If we’re safe from the latter, how exactly would the former threaten us?

  • davemc321

    Not to go OT yet again in this post, but hit the link and go to the very bottom to read seven lovely words: “This is William Kristol’s last column.”

    And you said there was no God.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    “Bill Kristol finishes his N.Y. Times run, will move to WashPost once a month ”
    http://www.politico.com/playbook/0109/playbook567.html
    .
    Now Karen, how about that CBO report….

  • wvng
  • wvng

    As for torture, I have rarely felt more hope for a return of our country than when Obama said, last Tuesday: “We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals. Our Founding Fathers, faced with perils that we can scarcely imagine, drafted a charter to assure the rule of law and the rights of man — a charter expanded by the blood of generations. Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience sake.”

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    Am I being overly simplistic here when I say that every day in this country we release violent criminals from our prisons and I’m confident that the recidivism rate for violent offenders outpaces that of the 2 of 61 terror suspects released from Gitmo. Now I recognize that the danger these individuals represent appears worse because we look at everything through the lens of 9/11. But as individuals they can not initiate that kind of carnage. And supposedly, since 9/11 the Bush administration put intelligence assets in place so these groups can’t just enter our country and operate undetected right?
    .
    I just don’t understand why our laws are so inadequate in the case of the detainees. No matter how many drive by shootings occur we don’t lock up every member of the gang indefinitely and without charges for life even though we know that their loyalty to the violent gang is for life. A violent death is a violent death to the dead person and their loved ones it doesn’t really matter if it was at the hand of a terrorist, gang banger, rapist, or pedophile etc.

  • Joe Bftsplk

    Thanks for the Kristol link, Cincy!
    (…he said, somehow finding that sentence particularly difficult to utter.)

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    “torture is the tool of the lazy, the stupid, and the pseudo-tough.”

    .
    Is it any coincidence that he described almost every conservative pundit in the world today?

  • wvng

    sgw – No. That is another simple answer to a simple question.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Cincy:
    .
    Email response from a WaPo article about the CBO “report”
    .

    I guess you can’t believe everything you read in the huffington post.
    .
    The report does exist and i have a copy of it. And i’ve discussed it with senior cbo officials, who confirmed the facts in my story, regardless of what an anonymous “cbo aide” might have to say about the matter.
    .
    I’ll refrain from the obvious invective or sarcasm, but do hope you’ll consider acquiring some firsthand knowledge of what you’re talking about before making unfounded accusations.
    .
    Thanks for writing

    .
    The crack about invective and sarcasm is in response to a crack of my own.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    There were reports that the CBO report was used to beat prisoners on the feet…Karen, any truth to that?

  • cdrwayne

    Here is a request for any conservative.
    .
    If torture works, please provide an example in the last 10 years where it worked and actionable intelligence was obtained. It you are unable to do this than STFU.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    I’d believe HuffPo before the WaPo any ole day of the week. They just hired Bill Kristol.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    As for Mayer, read the book. It’s really clear, really damning.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    They just hired Bill Kristol.

    Scott Horton: Has the Post made itself into the remainder bin for neocons?

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    SG — great minds think alike see post 11:22

  • lk312

    SOURCE INFO/CLARIFICATION ON THE CBO REPORT: The supposed CBO report on the stimulus looks to be based upon a actual recent CBO report issued Jan. 7th or 8th. The “fake” report is actually the real report recalculated using the stimulus numbers so as to show the difference that the stimulus package would have on the economy (i.e., a with or without scenario).

    You can find the report at the link below. See page 3 for the key stats.

  • lk312

    Merde! the link did not work. Hopefully, I get it right this time. If not, go to cbo dot gov and you’ll see it listed on the page.

    CBOreport

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Who was doing the ‘recalulating’ of the ‘actual’ CBO report? And where did you get this information?

  • wvng
  • lk312

    The acting CBO director (note to wvng – NOT the OMB director) presented the CBO report on Jan. 8th in his testimony before the US Senate. Here is the link to his testimony/report:
    link

    Many parties both inside & outside of govt have been using the report for analyzing the effects of the proposed stimulus. This is a means of showing the difference between doing nothing and the stimulus package. Parties both for & against the proposal are using the report. For example: The Tax Policy Center sites the report here:
    link

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    wvng
    .
    You should have replied that the incoming head of the CBO Peter Orszag begs to differ
    .
    http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/01/obama-presses-f.html
    .
    Reid said that OMB director Peter Orszag explained to the group today that the CBO study only analyzed 40% of the bill.
    .
    “He said he would guarantee that at least 75 percent of the bill would go directly into the economy within the first 18 months,” Reid said of Orszag’s prognosis.

  • lk312

    sgwhiteinfla – Orszag is NOT the incoming head of the CBO. He WAS the head of the CBO during the Bush administration. He IS the incoming director of the OMB (Obama nominated him on 11/25/08).

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    lk
    .
    You’re right, typing too fast

  • Cliff

    Who knew that so many four star generals hated America?
    .
    /troll

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Orzag WAS CBO director up until 2 months ago, to be clear.

  • usesherbrain

    This was in part of a link that jayackroyd provided in JK’s Cavedweller post earlier.
    .
    While I had some general distaste for the goings-on at GTMO due to respect for the JAG Corps and a distinctly unsettled feeling upon hearing that officers were resigning over the cases there, I had no idea the level of insanity that had been reached. My thanks to the LTC who had the guts to stand up for what was right, in 15 pages (entirely worth the read), no less.
    .
    The questions I was left with were these: How the hell do we get ourselves out of this mess? How can we possibly hope to do it in 12 months?
    .
    While a few options were put forth in discussion last week, I believe we’re down to one: we can only conclude the “evidence” is inadmissible and we’re unable to prosecute (either leading to more indefinite imprisonments or turning possibly dangerous criminals loose with greater ammunition against us).
    .
    Where does that leave us as a country?

  • Aaron

    So there was a CBO report that is:
    a) out-of-date, and
    b) does not say what Republicans are saying it says.
    .
    On Topic: The CIA will have to follow the same interrogation rules as the military. From the executive order itself:

    All executive directives, orders, and regulations inconsistent with this order, including but not limited to those issued to or by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) from September 11, 2001, to January 20, 2009, concerning detention or the interrogation of detained individuals, are revoked to the extent of their inconsistency with this order.

    Again, both the CIA and military are clearly covered under the same set of rules.

  • lk312

    I’m trying to find the verbatim quote from John Adams that he stated when explaining why he would choose to represent in the mid 1760′s British soldiers accused of opening fire & killing colonists during a riot. He felt that the rule of law was of the greatest importance in a democracy because it defended the rights and freedoms of individuals. I memorized the quote years ago – this is as best as I can remember its exact words:
    .
    It is as important to defend the rights of the accused as it is to protect the innocent.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!


    “Ben Pershing: It’s true that there is no official report from the CBO yet “scoring” the entire stimulus package. What the agency did is run a portion of the stimulus through it’s standard formula and then gave the basic data to some members of Congress, and it’s those results that we’ve seen written about in the press. The coverage has been a bit misleading.
    .
    Howard Kurtz: I agree that the media coverage should have made clear that 1) this wasn’t an official CBO report, and 2) this was spoon-fed to the media by Republicans to make their case. That doesn’t mean it’s not worth reporting, but the reporting was incomplete.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2009/01/23/DI2009012303458.html

  • lk312

    Cinci-that’s what I’ve been saying. The CBO report link I posted above is the source for the data, expectations, formulas for crunching stimulus numbers and then comparing them to a baseline (i.e. the CBO’s forecast) to get the delta or difference between the two.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Well, actually the source for the data is the GOP. No such report exists, the results painted by the Republicans based on the non existent report appears to be false and the press is complicitous in disseminating false information. Furthermore, they know this is the case and your attempts to legitimize this is strange.

  • lk312

    Cinci-you’re missing the point: there IS a CBO report (I’ve provided the link!). Confusion was created when GOP members plugged stimulus numbers into the report in order to see what the impact of the stimulus would have on GDP output, unemployment & the national debt. They then compared that total to the original CBO numbers as a means of making an argument for/against parts of the stimulus (most of the GOP is not opposing the tax cuts in the bill).
    .
    By using the recent CBO report as the baseline, the GOP is trying to make a reasonable argument that they are comparing apples to apples, since this is the baseline that the Obama administration also appears to be using. It’s not the baseline that is the issue here – it’s the comparative effectiveness of the components of the stimulus (i.e, which fiscal tools work better – tax cuts vs. govt spending). That effectiveness is boils down to how big or small the multiplier effect is once it hits the economy. Are you familiar with how the multiplier effect works for fiscal policy?

  • lk312

    Oh, and Cinci, one of the best ways for politicians to attack their opponents’ proposals is to start with the same data from an unbiased source. From there, manipulating the statistics is pretty simple. However, it also gives the proponents a better means for defending their bill if it based on sound judgment because it’s easier to see how the opponent is trying to twist the baseline numbers.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    So you’re “as much of a neo-Keynesian and Democrat” as anyone, but you’re in here pounding this non existent report, or rather the GOP’s take on a previous report? Uh, yeah.
    .
    YOU are missing the point, THERE IS NO CBO REPORT THAT SAYS WHAT THE GOP IS SAYING. There is a prior report, as there always are, and you are relying on the GOP for factual analysis. Good luck w/ that.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Can I make this any bolder or bigger so that it’s easier to understand?
    .


    I agree that the media coverage should have made clear that 1) this wasn’t an official CBO report, and 2) this was spoon-fed to the media by Republicans to make their case. That doesn’t mean it’s not worth reporting, but the reporting was incomplete.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2009/01/23/DI2009012303458.html

  • wvng

    ik: However, it also gives the proponents a better means for defending their bill if it based on sound judgment because it’s easier to see how the opponent is trying to twist the baseline numbers.
    .
    Only true if the media that presents these arguments to the public sphere consists of honest and knowledgeable people who stick to their area of expertise and call a foul a foul. Which they rarely do – normally it is serious sounding gasbags who don’t actually know more than what they are spoon fed by Drudge. Which leads me back to this:
    .
    To his credit, George Stephanopoulous had Paul Krugman on the roundtable this weekend to discuss the economy. If you want a treat, watch this 5 minute segment from the show. As you watch, ask yourself, "What would this segment be like if Krugman wasn’t there?"

  • lk312

    Cinci, I understand that you are angry that the reporting was flawed. It should have been clearer to indicate that the GOP was basing its analysis on a CBO report, which they used as a means of calculating the effect of the stimulus. However, that does not change the fact that there is indeed a CBO report that was used by the GOP.
    .
    Why accuse the GOP of lying when the whole problem boils down to a lack of clarification by the journalist(s)? It’s easier and more accurate to attack them using their calulations from inputting the stimulus numbers into the report. The GOP’s analysis is inherently flawed and relies upon economic theory that is either failed or does not apply in this type of recession (i.e., we’re in a deflationary/liquidity trap).
    .
    If your beef is with the journalists, then yep, it’s legit. However, don’t blame the GOP for faulty journalism.

  • wvng

    Why accuse the GOP of lying . . . perhaps because they were actively distorting the report in order to convince the public of something that was not true. It’s known as lying up in here the hills.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    “If your beef is with the journalists, then yep, it’s legit. However, don’t blame the GOP for faulty journalism.”
    .
    I’m ready to undercut your crack dealer by %20…what city are you in?
    .
    “if your beef is with the journalists, then yep, it’s legit. However, don’t blame the GOP for faulty journalism.”
    .
    If you can show where I’ve blamed the GOP for faulty reporting I’ll make it %30 off. I blame the GOP for being liars, I blame the media for not reporting FACTS and for reflexively using right wing talking points as sources. I blame YOU for being obtuse to the point of idiocy. Now it’s getting personal….you are a concern troll.

  • usesherbrain

    Ok, so I know this is totally against the grain here, but why are we so riled up about the GOP “creating” a report to make Obama’s recovery plan look bad? (Or, alternatively, the journalists failing to report the whole truth?)
    .
    I realize most of us have launched ourselves fully into hope-land now that an adult is in office, but the reality is that nothing and no one else has changed. Yet.
    .
    So, can we get over the in-character RW idiocy and get back to discussing more important topics, (like whether the “stimulus” will actually work) rather than rehashing the same predictable annoyance for 4 threads?

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    “Ok, so I know this is totally against the grain here, but why are we so riled up about the GOP “creating” a report to make Obama’s recovery plan look bad?”
    .
    Because the media has taken up this made up report as FACT and are reporting it as such. Remember when a large percentage of the American people though Saddam had something to do w 9-11? Think hard…can you remember whether good choices were made from that information or bad choices? It’s like that.

  • wvng

    Because the media is broadly reporting a fiction as truth (including JNS) and some of us would like to see serious pushback from responsible journalists. And because ik312 has been taking us on a confusing journey through the looking glass and we are trying to make sense of it. If a troll, ik is more subtle than most.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    lk312 is, I believer the most sophisticated troll to show up at Swampland to date…Scherer, is that you?

  • lk312

    wvng-I absolutely agree about how it plays out in the media & court of public opinion. Members of Congress and of each party have staff who know how to defend the numbers that they crunch from these reports. The problem is the lack of journalists with enough technical knowledge to understand and explain both sides’ arguments. This is particularly bad when those journalists get some of their information by picking up on arguments from partisan hacks in the media who wildly spin a party’s estimates and arguments. Add to that the fact that the more you repeat something, the better you are able to create seeds of doubts, perceptions, etc. (It’s not like that method is only used for attacking candidates during a campaign!).

    As for Krugman, I watched it. He is the best economist out there when it comes to explaining the current economic crisis. Unfortunately, “Roundtable” is usually not his best forum. He tends to be too polite at times and ends up getting cut off by others who have no clue what they are talking about (Sam Donaldson, George Will).

  • lk312

    So, I’m a troll because I am not willing to assume that a false or inaccurate media report is automatically the fault of the GOP?!?
    .
    Cinci/wvng- you’re as blind as the most loyal Bushies if you’re only willing to assume the worst in every situation regarding your political opponents.
    .
    Have you given any thought to the possibility that maybe this was NOT some sort of evil plot by the GOP or a partisan journalist? Human error, misinterpretation and simply not sufficiently understanding the subject matter are very common causes of errors and confusion. Add to that the fact that journalists often pick up “facts” from each other and end up with information about as accurate as what you’d get from a childhood game of “telephone”.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    lk312
    .
    After 8 years of Bush are you REALLY ready to give those clowns that kind of credit? Hell Peter Orszag corrected them almost immediately yet still they are repeating the same LIE. Now accepting your theory that initially they were simply mistaken, please posit a new theory about why they are still repeating it. If you can’t then you lose the entire argument. Game. Set. Match.

  • wvng

    ik, the only options are that the national GOP is, en masse, so stoopid that they blindly accept and believe and transmit clearly fallacious arguments from trusted authority figures (which is a distinct possibility I grant you), or that they are venal lying liars.

  • lk312

    Let me state it again: there is a CBO report. The GOP has inputted proposed stimulus numbers into the report’s calculations. The GOP is making arguments based upon its interpretation of the those calculations. From there, a lot of confusion occurred, but it looks a lot more like confusion than anything else. Not only does it appear to be a potential problem with reporting, but who knows where else the misconception was created/amplified. As a former political staffer, I can assure you that mistakes get made in the communication chain quite frequently. The sources of data sometimes get confused in the rush to find a basis for spinning an argument. I’ve seen plenty of politicians state inaccurate info because that is what they were provided by their staffs.
    .
    I am not saying that that is the cause in this case. Nevertheless, the starting point of this whole thing appears to be miscommunication. Once bad info is out there, it can be hard to correct because some people would prefer a positive mistake over a neutral or negagtive fact.

  • lk312

    One more thing, wvng- we are only about 3 weeks into a new Congress. Lots of returning members of Congress have had turnover in their staffs, which creates much more potential for confusion and mistakes.
    .
    Just because I might give the GOP the benefit of the doubt in some cases doesn’t mean that I don’t absolutely despise their policies and many of their tactics and members.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    I get it cincy: There is no CBO report that says what Republicans claims it says. I don’t care that some think that basing their numbers on a CBO report makes what the GOP and the lazy media report a partial truth. As a researcher the one cardinal rule I live by is that the minute someone changes my numbers to do their own analysis I am no longer responsible for the results and will not allowed my name to be used. So for the record lk312 these numbers being reported is a GOP report period.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    “So, I’m a troll because I am not willing to assume that a false or inaccurate media report is automatically the fault of the GOP?!?”
    .
    No, you’re an idiot for believing the GOP…you’re a troll for endlessly banging the GOP’s drum w/ this NON EXISTENT report.

  • lk312

    Cinci-you’re pathetic and part of the partisan problem we’ve had in this country for way too long.
    .
    I hope that you never serve on a jury.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Oh, so I guess you couldn’t prove your assertion that I wasn’t blaming the false media narrative on anyone else than the media. I wouldn’t want me on a jury if I was guilty either Einstein.
    .
    Let’s all bask in the reasoning abilities of lk312 :
    “I’m as much of a neo-Keynesian and Democrat as you’ll find, so I hope that you realize that my statements are basically defending Republicans who are criticizing the stimulus package”
    http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/25/mandela-king-ghandi-blagojevich/?apage=2#comment-36692

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    lk312 — Normally I’m the champion for nuance and trying to see all sides of an argument, but in this case you are just wrong. It doesn’t matter if there is a CBO report because it doesn’t say what they say it says, and the moment you say they input their own figures for analysis it is no longer a CBO report it is a GOP report and lack the very credibility that these stories in the news are trading on.

  • deathbypapers

    It would be nice if we could find a way to avoid ad hominem attacks in this blog as this blog is typically a rather civil and informative place (other than the omnipresent Scherer and occasional JNS bashing). I think the lk has a point in the sense that a lot of this is due to rather sloppy reporting and the fact that journalists are usually relative neophytes when it comes to the very sophisticated world of economics. they try to translate extremely complex, and controversial, models/theories/what have you in to lay person’s terms. That’s why for the majority of your economic news I’d recommend checking out Krugman’s blog.
    Secondly, lets put away the tinfoil hats. Certainly some individuals have nefarious plans but no major political party, gender, race etc should be condemned because of a few. It’s too easy to claim that you should never believe the GOP. That kind of thinking is exactly the careless and sloppy analysis that people on this blog rail against when it comes to Sherer, JNS or whoever.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    “It’s too easy to claim that you should never believe the GOP.”
    .
    I’m going to go ahead and believer everything they say is a lie, you go on and give them the benefit of the doubt and we’ll see who does better….mmmmmmkay?

  • lk312

    deathbypapers- Thanks for the comment. Clearly, in Cinci’s eyes anyone who doesn’t believe that everything stated by everyone in the GOP is a deliberate attempt to mislead the public is just a subversive GOP-sympathizing troll. Kind of funny if you consider that this means that Cinci thinks that the GOP is perfectly evil and thus, incapable of making mistakes.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Keep digging Einstein
    .
    “Clearly, in Cinci’s eyes anyone who doesn’t believe that everything stated by everyone in the GOP is a deliberate attempt to mislead the public is just a subversive GOP-sympathizing troll.”
    .
    No, I leave open the possibility of stupidity, and you’ve sorta proven my point.
    .
    “Kind of funny if you consider that this means that Cinci thinks that the GOP is perfectly evil and thus, incapable of making mistakes.”
    .
    Can anyone translate this for me? I don’t speak Moron-ese.

  • lk312

    Cinci- this is the last posting that I am going to make replying to your ridiculous accusations and rants.
    .
    “Kind of funny if you consider that this means that Cinci thinks that the GOP is perfectly evil and thus, incapable of making mistakes.”
    .
    It means that you think that all GOP actions are evil. If all GOP actions are evil without exception, then the GOP is “perfectly” evil. If the GOP is “perfectly evil” than there is no possibility that someone in their party could have made a statement or acted in a manner that is just an error because errors are mistakes, which are not necessarily evil (and certainly usually lack the motivation to be such).
    .
    Forget it. I’m wasting my time explaining an insult to a chimp.

  • James, Los Angeles

    .
    Here’s the deal.
    .
    1) The repubs put out a piece of paper with some numbers which they claim is a CBO report that “proves” not enough money will be spent the first year of the stimulus. That piece of paper is deceptive and based on outdated numbers and most assuredly is not a “report”.
    .
    2) Jay Newton Small and a lot of other reporters ran with that piece of paper and published the republican explanation wholesale, without checking to see if it was valid. Consequently, Jay Newton Small has misinformed her readers, due to sloppy, negligent reporting.
    .
    3) Jay Newton Small is called out for her sloppy, negligent reporting that misinforms and misleads her readers.
    .
    4) Jay Newton Small goes underground rather than address her demonstrably bad reporting.
    .
    5) In the ensuing discussion, people throw in all kinds of red herrings and straw men that detracts from the fact that Jay Newton Small has done sloppy, negligent reporting by reprinting republican-issued talking points without checking to see if they are valid.
    .
    That’s what the issue is. You can call it a report, even though it isn’t a report. You can excuse the republicans, or not be surprised that they would issue misleading information. You can attribute that to deliberate obfuscation or accident or stupidity, or all three.
    .
    The fact remains that Jay Newton Small is being called out for sloppy, negligent, erroneous reporting and Time Mag is not correcting it. Neither are any of the mainstream reporters who ran with the same set of false republican points.

    .
    I’d like to have anyone’s ideas on how to encourage reporters to do actual journalism, and to have the juevos to admit if they got something wrong. Actual journalism, I was taught to believe, is to do some independent checking and verifying of piece of paper, especiall those which the Republicans issue. But sure, the Dems too.
    .
    I use, of course, Agence France-Presse as my gold standard of reporting, so maybe I’ve set my expectations too high of American news outlets.
    .

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Dear Moron(lk312), so if the GOP is ‘perfectly evil’, then they are incapable of making mistakes because you chose the phrase ‘perfectly evil’ which contains the word ‘perfect’ therefore the GOP is incapable of making mistakes because they’re perfect….THIS is you assertion?
    .
    You are a walking, talking, typing turd.

  • lk312

    Cinci-you should get therapy for your rage/GOP paranoia issues. Bye!

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    “Cinci-you should get therapy for your rage/GOP paranoia issues. Bye!”
    .
    You keep saying your not going to reply to me, and yet you keep doing so and never addressing any of the issues brought forth. Buh-bye Einstein! Thanx for stopping by to tell us what a committed democrat you are and sharing your ‘concern’ that we not be too hard on the GOP. It was precious.

  • deathbypapers

    James, hear hear. I would like to note that red herrings come in all shapes and sizes.

  • http://ramblingandranting.wordpress.com/2009/01/26/obama-and-the-end-of-torture/ Obama and the End of Torture « rambling and ranting

    [...] Posted by tiffanie on January 26, 2009 Awesome [...]

blog comments powered by Disqus