“Say Amen!”

Rick Warren was a lousy speaker, just skilled base, forgetting the content.

That gives him a sensitivity to secularists that is rare in politics.
.
You know, that is effin’ nonsense You have no way of knowing this, no way of knowing which politicians pay lip service to this while retaining a personal atheist or agnostic status. And, in fact, in my experience, people who have the educational attainment of most politicians are much more likely to be “secular.”
.
And moreeffin’over, the US IS a secular country. There is no established religion. Established religion is expressly banned.

Yeah, trifecta. He was awful, wasn’t he?

I was listening to him wondering how he built up such a large congregation with such craptastic delivery skills. Perhaps he had an off day. It was also creepy the way he said Sasha and Malia’s names.

Being a non-believer myself, I certainly did notice his acknowledgement of a group that usually gets little but scorn. Bush Sr said years ago that he didn’t consider atheists to be either real citizens or patriotic. Atheists are usually considered the lowest of the low. I saw a poll not to long ago where more Americans would vote for a Muslim or a gay than an atheist. There’s nothing wrong with belonging to any of those three, but it would have been nice to have finished ahead of SOME group. Of course, they could have mentioned pedophiles and crack dealers in their survey. Then again, I’d really hate to rate lower than them too. Oh well, at least my curse that he beget an idiot son seems to have worked.

Loved the “no faith” shout-out. Now, I’d like to hear more people call what happened with Flight 1594 not a “miracle” but a triumph of engineering, training, intelligence, and willpower.

Not to pick on a quibble, but “secularism” is not the same as non-belief. Secularism means respecting the proper division between religion and politics. In this country, all religious folks should be secularists.
-
That said, I was startled this morning to hear myself included as a citizen in good standing, part of “Real America” as it were.

re: AS

But it is interesting that Rick Warren led off with the Jewish Shema prayer.

.
Why ? Christianity is, after all, just a radical off-shot of Judiasm. And especially with regards to Evangelicals and the use of Old Testament material.

To me it seemed much of the day’s message was this: if you want to define yourself predominantly as a “person of faith,” fine, just don’t let it get in the way of getting things done.

Obama’s shout-out to “non-believers” was, as far as I can tell, the first such acknowledgment in an Inaugural address.
†
And, sadly, I doubt they will appreciate it.
†
Most secularists, as far as I can tell, tend to be self-righteous blowhards who insist on demanding “proof” and “evidence” for everything, as if there were video cameras during Genesis or the the Passion.
†
Sorry, secularists, it’s not CSI Jerusalem. Just be happy Obama considers this land to be your land.

As we have observed over the last couple of years BHO has pretty strong strategic ability.
Inviting Warren and Lowery illustrated how pedestrian Warren is AND threw the right a bone.
Two boxes checked.

“grew up in a secular home”
.
Amy, do you have a particular problem with acknowledging that his grandparents were members of a Unitarian church, that his mother attend a Unitarian youth group as a teenager and that Obama attended Sunday School at a Unitarian church? I mean, really now! Many UU’s are secular humanists (and many are not) but that’s no reason to erase or ignore the fact that Unitarian Universalism is an actual denomination. Understanding this background makes his approach to faith much more comprehensible.

Rick who? Amy don’t they teach fact checking at Harvard Divinity School? See number 12.

I demand proof of nothing. If a person gets comfort or solace from believing in a higher power, that’s fine by me. I don’t believe and the only thing I really want is to be considered as much of a citizen and patriot as those who believe in talking snakes. As for “Just be happy Obama considerers this land to be your land”, isn’t that about as condescending and self-righteous as you accuse secularists of being? Blowhards come in all shapes and sizes.

Precious moment?

I managed to spare 2 minutes to catch the following moment in history:
.

I, Barack Hussein Obama, do solemnly swear …

.

{Why were we so worked up over John Kennedy being a Catholic? Then it came to pass. Lo! The world didn’t end! And god didn’t strike America dead! Now, I look at the portraits – the parade of our nation’s presidents, past and current. There is one named Barack Hussein. What a day.}

@ pourmecoffee: If you want to thank someone, try this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Albert_Link

Warren ended up being a disappointment as far as impact goes, leaving any hint of controversy far from the pomp and circumstance that followed. Does his flat invocation allow the gay activists to let Obama off the hook?

http://www.political-buzz.com/

Sqr1, secularity was the foundation upon which the Mayflower pilgrims built their government. In those days, the concern was to keep the King/government out of their religious beliefs/customs. Over time secularism has evolved to ensure that religious beliefs don’t muddle up our laws that are “for (all of) the people.”

“Just be happy Obama considers this land to be your land.”
.
An alternate, less idiotic, way of putting that might be “Just be happy Obama considers the Constitution”

@ Andy – Thanks for the link. I thought this was interesting, too.

I’ll echo Pourme et al. In fact it came as quite a pleasant surprise to be acknowledged as a non-believer. The majority view seems to be that we atheists are either fictitious, or closet devil-worshipers. As opposed to, say, people who embrace ethics because it makes our lives and world better, rather than because somebody told us we’ll burn if we don’t.
And by the way this helps me sympathize with gays, who were not specifically welcomed.
I look forward to the day when administering an oath to defend our Constitution doesn’t require 20 minutes of Christian sermonizing. I mean, among other things, wasn’t it horrifically boring?!?!!

Every part of the ceremony was beautiful until Rev. Lowry used a prayer to divide the races and then scold the white race. Obama has been all about inclusiveness and togetherness and adding a racist dig was very unfortunate.

I do believe Flight 1594 was guided by the hand of God. Too bad about that mother of three that was run over by the ambulance on its way to the scene. Guess His hand had a cramp at that point…

What steams me is the way that atheists and open-ended believers are lumped together. I look at the infinite reach of the universe and the intelligence that thought it all up and I don’t see the writers or watchers of How I Met Your Mother sharing eternal spiritual bliss in His presence after they’re worm food. Same for the Bible. It’s just not good enough. It’s not big enough. Funny how most religions, when faced with a greater reality than theie stories cover, simply ignore the existence of anything outside the realm of blue sky and daisies (like black holes, relativity, and life all over the cosmos).

I find pure atheism just as nutty. “Got earth beneath my feet, what more do I need to understand? It’s just there…”.

Ha-the poor down trodden “white race”, rainbow?
Scolding by asking for the day when “white will embrace what is right”?

I didn’t know a woman was run over by the ambulance. That saddens me. I believe in a loving God, but I also believe this world is marred by sin. People have choices, and we sometimes make the wrong choice. Those decisions have consequences. Bad stuff happens. Suffering occurs.

Amy — I hope you are just off your game otherwise …
.
Once again you’ve missed the point entirely. Obama’s inclusion of atheists is not a reflection of his faith or his late embrace of it. Obama’s inclusion is based on his strength of character and his willingness to see the world as it is and accept it. When you compare Obama to politicians who are afraid to stray from the religious dogma, established or not, that dictates who can enter into the public square — not surprisingly the difference is courage.

Every part of the ceremony was beautiful until Rev. Warren used the Lord’s Prayer to divide Americans into the saved and unsaved. Obama has been all about inclusiveness and togetherness and adding a sectarian prayer was very unfortunate.
.
(Apologies to rainbow, but I thought you said it so well, I’ll just drop in the parts that bothered me.)

@Joe B, most of my friends are conservative and christians. All things considered, the few atheist friends I have have higher moral standards and are more compassionate. Believing that this world is the only one we get to experience makes us appreciate the friends and family we have while they are alive. I don’t need the threat of eternal damnation hanging over my head to make me act civilized. Morals and ethics have nothing to do with religion. Helping those less fortunate comes from within, not without. And yes…it was horrifically boring. On the other hand, he could have sacrificed a chicken,drank the blood and read the phonebook as long as it was followed by Obama taking the oath. Some things are worth waiting for.

Sorry Rainbow, no woman that I know of was hit by an ambulance. That was thrown in for ironic effect. I’m sure someone was dying of cancer in a painful way somewhere in the New York area though, but that doesn’t evoke the same visual. My point is that explaining God like He/She/It is sitting on a cloud making a naughty/nice list and saving runaway baby carriages… or not… well, it’s the People Magazine scope of religion to me.

Oh, and Mr. Obama? Don’t walk outside the limo again. Powerful visual. Made the point. Don’t Don’t Don’t do it again.

@pourme thanks for your link!

@ centfan, I agree 100%. It was a powerful visual and it made the crowd go wild, but I held my breath until he got back in the limo. It wasn’t just the size of the crowd that justified the heavy security. There are some seriously deranged wingnuts out there who would like nothing better than to make it into the history books and become a worldwide celebrity. Famous or infamous, it wouldn’t make a difference to them. At this peroiod in time we need a visionary, not a martyr.

I’m afraid that I’ll have to agree with y’all that some of the meanest people I’ve ever known are professing Christians. Some of the best people I’ve known were also professing Christians. They are not God.

My dad was a deacon, a Gideon, a well-thought of man in the church. He was also distant and abusive. When he died in a freak accident when I was 18, I guess I was relieved.

God really is loving. It’s been hard for me to accept the term Heavenly Father, when my earthly one was so lacking. But I’m finding I can.

Remember that this is the first U.S. president who grew up in a secular home and became a Christian in adulthood.
.
Hogwash! Let’s start with Thomas Jefferson, who was a deist, a believer in “Nature and Nature’s God”. Also worthy of mention is Abraham Lincoln, who held his beliefs so close to his chest that even today it is impossible to say anything more precise about his belief in God than that he appears to have had one.
.
Amy, despite your credentials, you are intellectually lazy. If you’re going continue to make sweeping assertions without factual basis, you’re going to keep getting called on it.

“Deism” gets capitalized. Sloppy post.

Rainbow, I understand where you’re coming from. My own history includes not only de facto segregated schools but school days which opened with the Lord’s Prayer, despite the fact that half of my classmates were Jewish. I look forward to the day when a Christian prayer at a public, secular event is as out of place as a “Whites Only” over a water foundtain.
.
Can we agree that today’s events not only shone a light into the future, but illuminated some of the obstacles that lie in the way?

Man, sqr1 is just reeling all sorts of people in today.

Amy-
Your paragraph including “put aside childish things” and “the theology of certainty” rings true for me. There’s a psychological condition called “splitting”, which is literally the 3-year-old’s childish worldview that all things are either all good or all bad. Which of course leads to “you’re with me or agin me” thinking.
When you apply such thinking to yourself, it goes like “I’m not a bad person. Therefore I must be entirely good, and whatever I do is also by definition good.”
Take this far enough and you come to “Therefore anything bad must be your fault, not mine.” By this time it’s probably Borderline Personality Disorder, as covered nicely by Time last week (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1870491-2,00.html). (Personal note: DO NOT marry anyone with this condition!!!)
Anyway, even without the pathology, this is no way to live a life, or run a government. And for that matter, religions that think this way scare me.

joyomama: I think I saw what I expected to see: a very gracious and inclusive man and his wife humbly accept the most important job in the world.

As an aside: I wish our new Presidents would dispense with the habit of leaving their safe, bullet-proof car and taking a stroll down Pennsylvania Avenue on Inauguration Day! It makes me a nervous wreck! They seem so vulnerable.

Could someone post a list of the trolls so that I can just scroll by their posts? I’m new here and haven’t separated the wheat from the chaff. I could figure it out for myself but I’m lazy.

Dee at 26–
.
Well said.

And another thing…

It’s the pits that other cabinet members were confirmed today and Hillary’s stuck in limbo.

Ken Burns on Countdown, “The Civil War is over.” Docked a notch for his candyass attempt at facial hair.

Could someone post a list of the trolls so that I can just scroll by their posts? I’m new here and haven’t separated the wheat from the chaff. I could figure it out for myself but I’m lazy.

.
hulagate
textee
ilikechips
onlystandstoreason1
kattest123
.
I think that’s about it right now.

what joyomama said in #36.
.
If it’s to be true to itself, Christianity (I don’t presume to speak for other religions) must always stand over against the ruling authority (Romans 13:1-4 to the contrary notwithstanding). The Kingdom of God must not be confused with any earthly construct.
.
When Rick Warren forced the Lord’s Prayer into a pre-eminently secular occasion, he did a disservice to religion in general and Christianity in particular. Christ was never in cahoots with Caesar, and Caesar was never in cahoots with Christ . . . until Constantine the Great came along, but that’s another sermon (and Constantine was wrong).

Cliff! Have you forgotten our beloved Rustydog?!

Thanks Cliff. I won’t waste my time reading them. I’ll waste it on something else.

Rustydog came back under another name but didn’t last long – can’t remember what it was (a blessing of age)

Welcome, sacredh!
We should have plenty of opportunity to discuss religion (or lack thereof) on Amy’s posts.

It was all very nice. A great day. Although I don’t really care for the negative “non-believer” terminology. I believe in lots of things; people, science, hope, humor, etc etc…just not supernatural beings. But I guess “atheist” is just too strong a word for people to take.

Right you are, Joe. I was just thinking how interesting it is that Amy’s post provoked such a valuable (to me, anyway) discussion. I really enjoy this community.

Long MetaFilter thread on the topic, with some interesting quotes and opinions.

It’s a really good group, joyomama. Have you met Kathy yet? She’s awesome, kind of the dorm mom.

When we were fleeing Gustav last year, everyone was so supportive.

Now that you mention it, Friar Tuck, Rustydog did reincarnate. What was that new name? Shoot, that’s going to drive me crazy.

Old Swamplander AMC is on with Maddow.

PNNTO: I missed it! What did she say?

“Remember that this is the first U.S. president who grew up in a secular home and became a Christian in adulthood. That gives him a sensitivity to secularists that is rare in politics”
-
While I appreciate the sensitivity, unlike you, I maintain doubts about BHO being a Christian. The Road to Damascus is crowded indeed, with pols seeking higher office in the US, where a statement of mere doubt, let alone atheist tendencies, would merit instant DQ. See Dean and McCain, men who could barely disguise their discomfort amidst the faithful, or WJC or BHO, who can talk the talk just fine. But how they really feel, of their doubts or beliefs, f-ck me, spare us the knowing piffle of your navel.
-
And I’m sure we’re all thrilled that Time chose to employ the likes of you, obsessively interpreting the great moments of the day through your wind-up Jesus kaleidoscope.

Just some silliness Rainbow. What kind of dancers the Obamas are etc.
Rachel said AMC would be back later in the hour if you want to tune in.

pourme, thanks for the link to the discussion.

If it is possible to blend politics and romance, the Obamas dancing to Beyonce singing “At Last” was it. Beautiful on so many levels…where’s my hankie?

joyomama, I have no strong feelings about Beyonce but she can sing the heck out of that song.
She played Etta James in the movie Cadillac Records. Impressive.

Thanks, PNNTO! Good night everyone.

Sullivan sounds shocked that Obama saluted the atheist left. Someone please clue her in to the fact that the atheist left has been the dominant base of the Democrat party for at least 50 years. Is Sullivan 18 years old?

Yes, pourme, thanks for the MetaFilter link. But who are all these people who can stop after one sentence?

OT — are we supposed to get any “pool reports” from those lucky Swamplanders in D.C.?
Not that I’d expect them to be coherent…

Ha. I’ve been reading Metafilter for over eight years. Never posted, but I love the depth and breadth of topics. It’s more information sharing than discussion. I used to love Robot Wisdom and Memepool in that same genre, but they are dead now.

“I was listening to him wondering how he built up such a large congregation with such craptastic delivery skills. ”
.
You’ve obviously never been to Orange County CA.

Why no mention of the big tragedy here, which is that aside from one throwaway line to non-believers, there was a bunch of religion in all of this and no real secular content at all? You note Rick Warren and Reverend Lowery speaking and then say “oh, no Jews or Catholics.” Well… not like he was Richard Dawkins up either! Why isn’t that a tragedy?

sgr1, aka the real blowhard, got a few folks going, but not as many as the prayer givers themselves.

Actually, what us non-believers need is a good PR firm and solid rebranding. If we had a better image, one not borne out of evil communism back in the mid-20th — atheists? don’t they torture small animals? — we would see our number rise. Back in my dating days, “Do you believe in God?”, I would wait for a commitment from the date, but usually had to resort to the old stand by, I, well, I believe in the goodness of man, natural law, and utopian energy fields that surely . . . how’s your wine?

This as opposed to, I’m an atheist! Which generally meant an early evening, alone. Of course that was before the Atheist Dating Service, etc. Yes, rebranding is what is needed and Amy (or Joel Stein) should propose this in a future article.

As an atheist, let me assure you it’s nice to have a President who considers you a real citizen again.

BTW, most of the Founding Fathers were agnostic at best. John Adams didn’t even take the oath on a bible – he used a book of law. I wish we would follow his example, because I put a lot more “faith” in the Constitution than I do the Bible, or any other so-called “Holy Book”.

Excellent post. I too thought that Lowery made Warren look more lame than he did anyway. Lowery left everybody (well, almost; everybody can’t be done at such an event), with a smile on their face.
.
Also, in union with fense at #20, it will be refreshing if everybody stops assuming that everybody else in on their religious wave length, or any religious mind trip for that matter.

Amy –

I think you hit a lot of nails on the head here. Especially with #3.
.
(I am still thinking WTF with Warren’s craptastic delivery and I have spent a lot of time in the OC. Urf.)
.
Not surprised about the Shema, due to the interest a lot of conservative evangelicals (yeah, I used to be one) have in a lot of the Hebrew Scriptures. At least it isn’t the scary scorched-earth “Joel’s Army” stuff that Warren also seems to be a part of (which, if TIME hasn’t covered it, is well worth the ink IMO).