Good Idea

Just throwing a crazy idea out there, while we’re brainstorming: how about Israel stop wounding so damn many Palestinians.

Damn! Elvis beat me to the punch.
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Stopping the explosions would certainly be more effective and humane than treating the injuries.

‘Jocelyn Znaty, a stout 60-year-old nurse for Magen David Adom, the Israeli counterpart of the Red Cross, can hardly contain her glee at the site of exploding mortars below in Gaza. “Look at that,” she shouts, clapping her hands as four artillery rounds pound the territory in quick succession. “Bravo! Bravo!”…Ms. Znaty lives in Sderot, the immigrant community on Gaza’s border that has long been a target for rockets fired from Gaza by Palestinian militants…It’s weird that we have to take lives in order to save lives’
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123136613816062175.html
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Uh….no.

Cincy, I thought that link might take us to Joe the Plumber, er, journalist.

So many posts today. This is cynical.

It’s ‘Joe the Welfare Recipient’ first and foremost Andy.

Yeah a tent in Srderot might have helped the UN aid workers who were bombed and killed by Israel yesterday while trying to deliver humanitarian supplies.
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Joe Klein, the more you post, the dumber you look.
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Cenk Uygur of the young turks
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Ah, Joe’s having a bad week. He’s going to have to put his finger in the wind again to figure out whether to follow the CW of the rest of the idiot Villagers, or that of his well-informed commenters.
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I think we all know which he’ll choose.
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Poor Jokeline.

OT is anyone from Swampland going to post on the Blago’s impeachment?
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Or is that a non-story.

Wow, that’s a horrible idea. I mean it just screams “cherry armchair general moron.” Obviously from someone who’s never spent time in a combat zone.
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I mean really, who the hell thinks its a good idea to set up a hospital to be run by the people who are killing and wounding all the civilians, in the town that was being most often hit by enemy rocket fire? You’re just asking for some extremely distraught person from either side to do something violent and destructive. Not to mention the tone-deafness of the idea. You really think someone who lost two sons to an artillery shell is going to be mollified and NOT hate Israel because the third kid got medical treatment from the Israelis?

JK’
You are a fair man of the “free and fair” American MSM.

And they trust us to broker peace in that Israel(US)-Palestinian(Arab) conflict because were are even handed.

This trashy propaganda seems to be the type that Israel would pursue (and, as usual, funded by the USA taxpayer.)

We are dying to hear from you some good propaganda that benefits the other side in that conflict …
[Or are we waiting for 6 million Arabs to be killed ..]

Andy from MA Says:
” .. OT is anyone from Swampland going to post on the Blago’s impeachment? Or is that a non-story. “

According to JK, there are other priorities – like the economy and Israel’s supremacy – that take precedence over concerns over the rule of law in USA, the Constitution, human rights, Geneva Conventions etc.

I worry over JK lately. Maybe the Swamp should let him go …

SeanDecoursey: Sally Quinn. Like what the farmer said when the jackass kicked him, “you just have to consider the source.”

Sean DeCoursey forgot his password Says:
” .. You really think someone who lost two sons to an artillery shell is going to be mollified and NOT hate Israel because the third kid got medical treatment from the Israelis? .. “

“A good idea”?

Suppose a lobbyist or consultant in Washington would have recommended to the Al-Queda that they set up a hospital to treat those wounded on 9/11. …

Now, what would be JK’s or Goldberg’s response if an Arab-American recommended such an idea? Suddenly it wouldn’t be just a discourse or an intellectual exercise.

!!!! Now, what would I think of it if JK came up with the idea?

OT — Court rules that “not THAT Jesse White” has to sign and seal Blago’s appointment of Burris.
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Ball back in Reid’s court. I said Reid would cave by 12 noon Friday. I’m only off by two hours.

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/01/state-court-rebuffs-burris-on-senate-signature.html

Andy: read the judgement. Burris can obtain a copy of the registration of the appt by paying a fee. It cannot be denied to him. The Senate cannot demand one because the letter of appt was delivered personally to the Sec of the Senate by a Blago envoy. So Hopeless Harry can use that as a fig leaf. All the time, money and effort to deals with assorted egos. What a waste!

sevenoaks07 — What the egos will out as Obama tries to get his stimulus package through congress. Congress is a lagging indicator of the change people voted for in november. While the financial world collapses around us, the members of Congress are unscathed.

OT is anyone from Swampland going to post on the Blago’s impeachment?
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Or is that a non-story.
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It’s only a story when it might look bad on Obama.

Joe – yes, this is an obvious and very good idea. Time for the Israelis to demonstrate that their enemy is not the people of Gaza. If they don’t do it they add to the justified impression that they bear tremendous enmity to these people who are not their enemy.

Andy – I think Blago’s impeachment interrupts the story line that the Democrats are persecuting the poor old man that Blago appointed to the senate.

Kathy:
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Senator-designate Burris certainly has the poor man’s version of the Lincoln Memorial. When I lived in Maine, the Portland Western cemetary had the 15 to 20 foot tall obalisks commemorating the life some wealthy merchant or landowner. I always wondered what type of ego would commission such a memorial. Then I saw Burris’s monument to himself.
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My wife and I have a running joke about the size of a man’s stainless steel barbecue grill in proportion to his height, lack of self esteem, or other man related component that might be smaller in size. Our assumption is the larger the grill, the smaller the…well you get the picture. I have a hunch Mr. Burris has truly a 5 megawatt stainless steel barbecue grill.
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Since I have high self esteem, and am 6’0″ tall, I only need to get by with a 25,000 BTU grill.
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“poor old Man pfui!!”, someone we both know well might say.

Are any of you guys watching Blago’s press conference? Apparently the Illinois House has impeached Blagojevich because he wanted to bring the people more health care. He’s surrounded himself with the ill, including a guy who got a liver transport and who is now going to live a full and long and happy life, and “that is not an impeachable offense.” It certainly makes it clear why Fitzgerald thought we needed a little bit of a reality check with the tapes. Now Blago’s reading poetry (Tennyson, I think). Totally amazing.

Andy – very satisfactory

And Blago’s grill…well it can power a major metro area.

Kathy: I watched on CNN. I was gobsmacked. What was this all about? Looks like Bush’s Washington is not the only place where another reality operates. Bizarre. Is he going to get poetic justice? Will the Senate hand down its decision in iambic pentameter?

Don’t tell Glennzilla, but Joe Klein may not be entirely consistent on this one.
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Remember when Giuliani refused Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal’s check for $10 million to help with relief efforts?
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Here was Joe Klein’s take: “And the nerve of that Saudi, in effect blaming the U.S. for 9/11–a month after 15 Saudi terrorists were involved in the attacks, directed by the Saudi Osama bin Laden! Thomas Friedman, no hothead, wrote a column offering “three cheers for Mayor Rudy Giuliani” for stiffing the prince. At the time, I was cheering too.”"
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Granted, bin Talal made a statement that was highly inflamatory and suggested that the I/P conflict was one of the root causes of 9/11. But, honestly, if a month after 9/11 was “too soon” to get a helping hand along with a moral lecture, do we really think that it would be a “public relations coup,” as Goldberg put it, to have the very people who are shelling, shooting, and bombing the Palestinians to offer some medical assistance?

bitter – Pat Quinn just quoted poetry back at him, the third verse of America the Beautiful. Who knew their discourse would be so elevated.

sqrl- he’s not the only one to suggest that:
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In 1996, Israeli jets bombed a UN building where civilians had taken refuge at Cana/ Qana in south Lebanon, killing 102 persons; in the place where Jesus is said to have made water into wine, Israeli bombs wrought a different sort of transformation. In the distant, picturesque port of Hamburg, a young graduate student studying traditional architecture of Aleppo saw footage like this on the news. He was consumed with anguish and the desire for revenge. As soon as operation Grapes of Wrath had begun the week before, he had written out a martyrdom will, indicating his willingness to die avenging the victims, killed in that operation–with airplanes and bombs that were a free gift from the United States. His name was Muhammad Atta. Five years later he piloted American Airlines 11 into the World Trade Center.

sqr1 – very good point at 26. I wonder if the Gazans need medical help so much more than we needed help that they wouldn’t see it that way. We have always been arrogant about the notion of accepting help – unwilling to let others have the pleasure in giving that we recognize we have in giving, and unwilling to be looked down on the way we look down on those we give to, as well.

This is just a guess but does anyone think the public relations boost being suggested by Quinn is not being aimed at Palestinians but rather being directed toward the UN or the European Union whose opinion of Israel is not as supportive as the US.

Joe:
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I think that Palestinians treated at Sderot would find the surroundings to be absolute heaven…

The stupidity of this post screams open thread, so in honor of the 524,000 people who lost their jobs this month, a poem for our times(warning, not for the easily depressed):

“the car’s on fire and there’s no driver at the wheel
and the sewers are all muddied with a thousand lonely suicides
and a dark wind blows

the government is corrupt
and we’re on so many drugs
with the radio on and the curtains drawn

we’re trapped in the belly of this horrible machine
and the machine is bleeding to death

the sun has fallen down
and the billboards are all leering
and the flags are all dead at the top of their poles

it went like this:
the buildings tumbled in on themselves
mothers clutching babies picked through the rubble
and pulled out their hair

the skyline was beautiful on fire
all twisted metal stretching upwards
everything washed in a thin orange haze

i said: “kiss me, you’re beautiful –
these are truly the last days”

you grabbed my hand and we fell into it
like a daydream or a fever

we woke up one morning and fell a little further down –
for sure it’s the valley of death

i open up my wallet
and it’s full of blood ”

-God Speed You Black Emperor!, “Dead Flag Blues”

Joe in a sane world… but we are not living in a sane world.

So forgetaboutit!

Maybe, instead, Joe, the residents of Sderot ought to be forced to live the way they (together with the rest of Israel) have foced the Gazans to live.
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I know that this is somehow, in your mind, “ironic” and “poetic”, but believe me, unless you feel that Israel can do no wrong, the irony and poetic justice just might apply more aptly to the Palistinian reaction to such high quality and safe surroundings.

Ok I don’t know how many of you know about this but for those who don’t you aren’t gonna believe this sh!t. Israel bombed a shelter that they told Palestinians to go to in order to get out of harms way.
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The UN is demanding an investigation.

BTW, I didn’t mean to step on sqr1′s point (nicely elaborated on by Kathy) with my last post… I do find it interesting how even when considering treatment of the critically wounded or providing much needed emergency assistance, that appearances are often the foremost consideration. Humility and respect are too often in short supply.

I read about it yesterday.
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Have you noticed that in order to actually hear news that is negative about Israel, I have to go to BBC?
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I wonder why…

cincy:
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I feel your pain!

Israel bombed a shelter that they told Palestinians to go to in order to get out of harms way.
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They were using an outdated map and thought they were targeting a Chinese embassy.

O/T
I found this interesting article from the International Center for Transitional Justice. Apparently, presidential pardons may not protect Bush and administration official from prosecution for violating international laws:
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(A) pardon would not prevent another country, or an international tribunal, from investigating and prosecuting war crimes and other violations of international law.

When you get resolutions of support passed by Congress what is the incentive for the Israelis to tread carefully? When you can keep the foreign press out why do you complain that Al-Jazeera and Al-something else controls the Arab perception. BBC has made many an effort, as does the CBC, to get information from inside Gaza. But we know that the Israel incursion is not pretty. Maybe that is why we see mournful ads calling on us to support Israel against Hamas. We are in Potemkin’s Village now.

Actually, on second thought, maybe Israel should open some tent orphanages. Talk about a p.r. stroke of genius. People love kids. The world would see Israel taking in all these poor children who have lost their parents…some of them with missing limbs or other serious injuries.
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It is sad that these sorts of sensible ideas don’t get done, for whatever reason, but it would be nice to be proven wrong.

How about a tent for showering, where no water comes out of the nozzles bur rather some sort of gas?

Another poem for our times

Damn depression it tumbles in upon us like an angry wave

Forcing some to go live in concrete overpass caves

Tossing people asunder from job of worth and wonder

Because we elected people, who mastered in the blunder!

Damn depression…With babies hungry, the electricity out and buildings with no name

Comes a confession…Materialism is a mother and greed is the game, face it America… we are all to blame.

Look in the mirror damn you… it’s you who caused this economic abomination.

Just remember that!…. as you seek shelter in prayer with your disinterested God of creation

You enabled the silent watchdogs, promoted your own greedy ways; and it’s you who diminished your own 401Ks

Now it’s time to listen carefully to that cold voice of reason … which whispers silently… your ass is grass in the coming season

DS 2009

On the other hand, Joe, maybe Israelis should be as a matter of a lesson in civics, be forced to experience what they visit upon others.
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Now, that’s extreme!

Hey, a tent hospital! That ought to fix everything!

“We’re not intentionally bombing the s**t out of you! See, here’s a band-aid.”

“How about a tent for showering, where no water comes out of the nozzles bur rather some sort of gas?”
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Hydrogen sulfide, perhaps…

Hmm. I’m going to go against the prevailing grain, here, and suggest that people remember that Hamas has been lobbing bombs into populated Israeli cities for a while, now. Or doesn’t that matter?
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I offer this, but it might be too subtle for some of the gallery:
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http://cartoonbox.slate.com/hottopic/?image=4&topicid=50

Mr. Nice Guy: We remember that Hamas is lobbing missles.

It’s just the idea that with a full-on Israeli assualt on Gaza, that Israel is somehow going to convince average Palestinians that it’s actually Hamas afflicting them is pretty ridiculous.

It would take a lot of tent hospitals. Oh, and maybe no economic blockade. And maybe some freedom of movement or self-determination. And maybe not colonizing the West Bank.

But look: a tent hospital! No need to feel guilty anymore! We offered a tent hospital!

They could let in medical supplies from Egypt, too.

Mr Nice Guy
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And Israel has been starving out the Palestinians for some time now. Do you really want to try to compare images? Trust me Israel will lose every time.

> convince average Palestinians that it’s actually Hamas afflicting them is pretty ridiculous.
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And there’s a point to convincing them? Is that even possible?
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> And Israel has been starving out the Palestinians for some time now.
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If that were in response to the Palestinians acting like good, responsible neighbors, I might see your point. But strapping bombs to women and children and sending them to pizza parlors; applauding snipers who target infants held in their mothers arms; abducting kids who happen to get lost and then torturing them before dragging their mutilated bodies through the streets doesn’t fall under neighborly behavior, in my book.
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If the Palestinians want to act like animals, I’ve no problem with Israel treating them like animals. In fact, anything less simply encourages that behavior.
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Why should one side be held to higher standards than the other?

kathy Says:
“..this is an obvious and very good idea. Time for the Israelis to demonstrate that ..

“demonstrate” what – to the Palestinians (who have been traumatized by the Israel/USA/UN axis for generations)?
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sqr1 Says:
” .. maybe Israel should open some tent orphanages. ..”

Kathy and Sqr1, if you really tried, you could think of a good idea that would have made Al-Queda look good after the 9/11 attack. Goebbels could have found you useful.

How about some ideas that Hamas can use after a rocket drop in Israel?

After all, Americans are neutral brokers of peace in that conflict and we have ideas for both combatants, right?
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bitterpill8 Says:

” … we see mournful ads calling on us to support Israel against Hamas. ..”

Must we? Why should we?
We ARE the Americans. We are THE superpower. We are the brave and the free. We are NOT dictated to by Israel or Israel’s apologists. And Israel does not determine who our friends will be.

Now about the over $2,000 that Americans send to each person in Israel- free money – from a land of over 30 million starving Americans.
I didn’t vote for that.
Gosh! we vehemently support or oppose – and then vote on far lesser expenditures in our cities! Why should we, the Americans, be taxed for Israel without our say so?
What happened to “no taxation without representation”"
Do we have to have another tea party?

Why is it that the very prospect of confronting Israel’s apologists suddenly turns the hitherto ‘brave and the free’ into lily-livered, yellow-backed, jello-footed, spineless, intellectually vegetative zombies who could have just graduated from Cheney’s Guantanamo or Israel’s torture chambers?

Mr. Nice Guy Says:

” .. If the Palestinians want to act like animals, I’ve no problem with Israel treating them like animals. .. “

And vice versa?

Mr. Nice Guy:
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All your points would mean more to me if Israelis and their supporters actually had any solutions. Their only answer is slow-motion ethnic cleansing through colonization.
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If your point is that this re-occupation is justified, I’d ask, where does it end? How many days are enough? How many lives are enough? Because the rockets won’t stop. You know that, and I know that.
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So what’s the magical stopping point? You don’t have an answer and neither do the Israelis.
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So are they “justified”? Sure, why not. Good luck with the re-occupation. Gaza is all yours. Enjoy!

It’s a kind idea, but the Israeli doctors would be targets of violence. They’d be sitting ducks to every suicide bomber out there.

I think the Israelis have demonstrated time and again that they are far more willing to sit down and negotiate, in good faith, than the other side. Israel was willing to give everything Arafat wanted – even though it meant risking their own security – and what did he do? Walked out of the meeting, leaving Albright to chase after him. That was right before the Second Intifada, which Arafat initiated to save face.
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I’m sorry, but until you can show me a comparable image of the Palestinians _really_ offering something of value to engender some peace in the area, you won’t convince me of anything. They don’t _want_ peace; they want the destruction of Israel. They want the death of Israelis. They don’t care if it means the death of their own people; they welcome that and use it for propaganda against the Israelis. I can’t believe a group of otherwise intelligent people can’t see that.
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Egypt could manage to wrangle a workable peace settlement. What’s stopping the Palestinians?
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Again: why is one side held to higher standards than the other? Why does Israel have to make all of the concessions for there to be any hope for peace?
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Gotta head to the gym. I’ll leave you folks to ponder that for a bit. Not that I expect a different response; it seems like the Israelis are as well-liked around here as Repugs.

I’ll add, before I skedaddle, that I applaud the Israelis for standing up to thuggish behavior. We had an opportunity to do likewise, here in this country – I refer you to Bush’s hegemony over the last eight years – and what did we do? Sat on our as.es, bitc.ing about it. We got our as.es kicked by Bush and his buddies, and we just sucked it right up like the scared little twits we are.

Is that even possible?
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I think the burden on that one lies on the guys claiming this would be a “public relations coup”.
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If the Palestinians want to act like animals, I’ve no problem with Israel treating them like animals.
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I will agree that the particular tactics employed by Palestinians, and Arabs and Muslims generally, are more offensive to Western sensibilities than those employed by the Israelis. However, if the Palestinians turn my stomach qualitatively, the Israelis do so quantitatively. There comes a point where killing hundreds or thousands of civilians through — at best — “collateral damage” becomes equally if not more offensive offensive as deliberately targeting dozens.
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More Palestinian children have been killed in a single bomb strike than have been killed by Hamas’ rockets since 2001.
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Aside from that, there is no justification — either morally or under international law — for collective punishment. Nor is there any excuse for dehumanizing the Palestinian population in order to justify abhorent tactics. They are human beings.

cfukara:

I appreciate the apparent insult, but I honestly couldn’t tell what the hell you were saying. Care to give it another go?

I’m inclined more to the traditional forms of poetry. I’ll start one – feel free to create your own Lines 2 through 5:

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There once was a group called Hamas…

“If the Palestinians want to act like animals, I’ve no problem with Israel treating them like animals. In fact, anything less simply encourages that behavior.”
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It goes both ways and when a bunch Jews/Israelis get blown up by jihadis, we’ll all say….’well, anything less would only encourage them!’. It’ll be fun, you’ll see.
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It’s an eye for an eye, not a thousand eyes for an eye.
I really hate the god of Abraham.

Oh, and speaking of animalistic behavior:
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1937-1939 The Irgun conducted a campaign of violence against civilians resulting in the deaths of at least 250.
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Nov 6, 1944 Lehi assassinated British minister Lord Moyne in Cairo. The action is condemned by the Yishuv, but the bodies of the assassins are brought home in 1975 to a state funeral and burial on Mount Herzl.
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July 26, 1946 The bombing of British headquarters at the King David Hotel, killing 91 people — 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 others. Around 45 people were injured.
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Oct 31, 1946 The bombing by the Irgun of the British Embassy in Rome.
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Jul 25, 1947 The reprisal killing of two British sergeants who had been taken prisoner in response to British execution of two Irgun members in Akko prison.
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Sept 17, 1948, Lehi assassination of the UN mediator Count Bernadotte, whom Lehi accused of a pro-Arab stance during the cease-fire negotiations.
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Israel is a terrorist state.

MNG: In case you read this upon your return.

Again: why is one side held to higher standards than the other? Why does Israel have to make all of the concessions for there to be any hope for peace?
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I find the second part of your question absurd. OBVIOUSLY, Israel does not have to make all of the concessions for peace to occur. There are going to have to be concessions all multiple stake-holders: Israel, Palestinians, other Arab states, the U.S.
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The first part of your question is interesting though, so let me address that more fully.
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Is Israel held to a higher standard? In some respects, yes, and in some respects, no. Israel IS held to a higher standard in two regards.
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First, Israel, by its own choosing, has hitched its wagon to the U.S. As an American citizen, I am held responsible for the actions of the Israeli government in a way that I am not for the actions of the Palestinians. Thus, I hold Israel to the standards that I hold the U.S. If Israel doesn’t want Americans to treat Israel like they treat their own country then I would respectfully suggest that they stop buying our weapons and treating our foreign policy interests as identical.

Second, the political dynamic between Israel and the Palestinians is assymetric, so the expections placed on them is going to be assymetric. Israel is occupying the Palestinian lands, not the other way around. Israel is denying the Palestinians’ the rights to travel, self-govern, etc., not the other way around.
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Now I freely concede that Israel has legitimate security concerns. And those security concerns may grant Israel the right to take security measures in the Palestinian territories. But the burden will ALWAYS be on Israel to justify any security measures that it takes. Not because they are Jews and everybody hates Israel, but because that is the burden that every occupying power has.
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I have spent the vast, vast majority of my life being far, far, far more sympathetic to the Israeli side than the Palestinian side. But, increasingly, Israel’s justifications are looking weaker and weaker. And it is increasingly looking like it is the right-wingers in Israel and the U.S. that are the bad faith actors in negotiating a peace agreement.
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Do some Palestinians want Israel pushed into the sea? Obviously. But it is also obvious that Israel isn’t going anywhere. Hamas doesn’t pose an existential threat to Israel. Jews in Brooklyn face a graver threat on a daily basis from random gang violence than Israeli’s do from Hamas’ rockets. But you don’t see the U.S. launching F-16 airstrikes into the outer boroughs of New York.
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Eliminationist rhetoric directed towards the Palestinians — and describing Palestinians “animals” or “vermin,” as is popular at sites like LGF — is just as offensive.

What sqr1 said.

A PR coup indeed. What a cynical view in light of how Isreal has conducted this rampage. There are enough PR firms to put a positive spin on what is happening. A start might be to allow humanitarian aid in and to operate without being targeted. Oh, and don’t bomb UN schools being used as shelters. Oh, and don’t kill medics performing rescue. Oh, and don’t shell indescriminately in general. Oh, and figure out a more humane means of dealing with the rockets.

Cinci: what would you have them, the Israelis, do? They’ve done just about everything the Palestinians have asked for, over the years – EXCEPT commit mass-suicide. They’ve ignored the attacks; they’ve come to the bargaining table; they’ve provided money, health care and educational facilities, weaponry and training for internal police forces; they’ve made land concessions, even land they took in a defensive war – name another country that’s done that; they’ve released honest-to-goodness terrorists from Israeli jails. None of it has worked with the Palestinians. What more would you have them do?
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Why has Egypt been able to maintain a peaceful relationship with Israel? Why haven’t the Palestinians consulted with Egypt, learned from their lessons, and made peace with Israel?
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The only roadblock to peace in the region is the fact that the Arabs don’t want it. As soon as that changes, there will be peace.
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And even without considering the Israeli relationship, America is also a terrorist state. Iraq proved that. Or is it not terrorism if _we_ do it?

Mr. Nice, Egypt is autonomous and not subject to the whims of Isreali politics. They tried war, found it to be most unpleasant, and moved on, and in fact cooperate in keeping the gaza a goat pen of neglect.

The arabs in gaza have no choice and nothing to lose. They have been backed into a wall of deprivation by Isreal and are doing what they can. I speak in general terms yet we know that most of the victims in gaza are innocent of anything. How many children have died now? The response by Isreal, as has been pointed out again and again, and is obvious, is disproportionate and cruel. I know you are in agreement with this action, but I am not, will never be. You understand the shame of the Iraq destruction, but see no fault in this gaza debacle. I don’t understand that.

MNG: Most Americans and 90% of the commentators here are sympathetic to Israelis. I don’t want to minimize or dismiss the psychological impact of living with constant threats of mortar and rocket attacks. I certainly wouldn’t want to live like that and I completely understand that Israel has the right to live free from such attacks.
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But two important facts need to be kept in mind. Hamas poses no existential threat to Israel from the rockets and mortars. It is no exaggeration to say that a New Yorker faces a greater chance of being killed by a falling crane than an Israeli does of being killed by a Hamas rocket.
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Second, it has been demonstrated that Hamas can be negotiated with. Instead of throwing your hands up as if at wit’s end and acting like Israel has absolutely no recourse lest the country be physically shoved into the Mediterranean by teeming hordes of Palestinians, you might reflect that there was a cease fire in place as little as a couple of months ago and that rocket attacks were reduced to a handful from June until November.
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I do not want to absolve the Palestinians of their part in breaking the cease fire, but there is significant evidence that right-wing extremists in the Israeli government, who never have and never will believe that peace is possible, used the violation of the cease fire as a pretext — much as the Bush admin. used 9/11 to invade Iraq — in order to implement their long-term plans to wipe out Hamas. That the violation of the cease fire wasn’t a straw that broke the camel’s back, but rather a window of opportunity that the extremists did not want to see pass, lest peace break out again.

Why has Egypt been able to maintain a peaceful relationship with Israel? Why haven’t the Palestinians consulted with Egypt, learned from their lessons, and made peace with Israel?
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This comment is tremendously ironic. Rather than holding Egypt up as a model of good citizenship, Israel and its supporters would be far better served by calling out its Arab neighbors for their failings.
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Why don’t Palestinians consult with Egypt? Maybe because Israel won’t let them go there and Egypt won’t accept them. If Israel wants a p.r. coup, I’d suggest stop demonizing the Palestinians so much and start putting pressure on other Arabs countries to make their lives better.

In the name of democracy, I might add that Hamas is the elected authority. One problem is that it has been slapped, ignored, insulted and otherwise not recognized as the elected authority which it is. The neocon philosophy for exporting democracy ends when the result is not satisfactory. According to their agenda.

formerlyjames: > keeping the gaza a goat pen of neglect.
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You’re saying that Israel _wants_ this condition? I disagree with that. I’m not an Israeli, nor an expert on their country, but I seriously disbelieve that Israel stands anything to gain by maintaining hostile neighbors in slum conditions. They’ve shown time and again that they’re willing to negotiate, and have gone out of their way to provide assistance to a people that seem to then turn around and slap the Israelis in the face as a measure of gratitude.
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And I’m not necessarily in agreement with their, the Israeli’s, recent action – I haven’t really been paying attention: is there anything new to the situation? It’s the same stuff that’s been going on since I was a tadpole. The Arabs pay lip-service to peace, and in fact fire rockets into Israel, or otherwise attack them, the Israelis respond, and it goes round-and-round.
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If, say, Canada or Mexico fired rockets into the US, don’t you think we’d fire back? What kind of scale do you think we’d use? We’ve waged a five-plus-year war against a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.
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As I said: when the Arabs truly want peace, there will be peace. The Israelis are not the ones holding up the peace talks.
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sqr1: > and that rocket attacks were reduced to a handful from June until November.
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Exactly my point. When the Arabs want to stop the fighting – miracle of miracles – it stops.
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> implement their long-term plans to wipe out Hamas.
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Eh, didn’t we do something similar with Saddam & his regime? Aren’t we trying, now, with bin Laden and al Queda? What about the Taliban? It seems to be commonly accepted as Ok to wipe out proven terrorists. I don’t necessarily agree with it, prima facie, in this case, since Hamas _was_ duly voted into power. But, as I’ve said, if they wanted peace, all they have to do is put down the guns. Israel has done miraculously well in making something out nothing in the desert over there. I’m sure, if they all worked together, almost everyone could prosper.
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Those hardliners in the Israeli government, if I may speculate, are probably just pragmatic about the fact that, for years, they’ve been going round-and-round about this, and the Arabs always manage to start another round of fighting. How many times would you let yourself get stabbed in the back when trying to work with someone? How long would you allow a neighbor to fire missiles at your house?
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> Maybe because Israel won’t let them go there and Egypt won’t accept them.
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A. Israel has to protect its borders – period. To simply let people in and out of the territories as they wish would hardly serve the security of the country. We do the same thing with our own borders; you should see the Peace Bridge between Canada on a weekend night: the backed up traffic stretches almost into downtown Buffalo. If Canadians exhibited a hostile tendency toward America, we’d implement border constraints even worse.
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B. Isn’t Egypt then part of the problem? Of course they don’t want the Palestinians: its better to keep them poor, broken down, with nothing to lose, and more likely to be terrorists. As I’ve said, when the _ARABS_ want peace, there will be peace.
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B.1. In spite of that, Egypt has still managed to negotiate a workable peace. It _can_ be done, and any reluctance is not likely to be on the part of the Israelis.
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> I might add that Hamas is the elected authority.
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With which I agree. As such, they have a responsibility to their people to behave in a manner that benefits their people. Causing retaliatory attacks against their people doesn’t serve that purpose.
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Unfortunately, the locals, and some folks on this site, don’t see it that way: it’s always the big, bad Israelis kicking the snot out of helpless Arabs. That’s the crap with which I have to disagree. If you start a fight with me, I’m not the bad guy for whupping your butt. The Arabs, in all honesty, bring this on themselves. Other cultures – Japanese, Vietnamese, Northern Ireland (?) among others – were able to move past the fighting to become productive contributors to the global society. Meanwhile, the Arabs are still stuck in the middle-ages with their desire to vaporize Israel, just because it exists.

Mr. Nice, I understand and agree with your position so far as the bad arabs who fire rockets and commit suicide attacks (none lately).

But I distill my question of this carnage to the following: why do the arabs who have nothing to do with the above have to be killed and suffer on such a grand scale?

But you don’t see the U.S. launching F-16 airstrikes into the outer boroughs of New York.
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Don’t give the Weekly Standard any ideas.

Mr. Nice Guy Says:
Gotta head to the gym. I’ll leave you folks to ponder that for a bit.
My!
At times we are shocked to find that our twaddle in neither novel nor significant.

I don’t want to minimize or dismiss the psychological impact of living with constant threats of mortar and rocket attacks.
In addition to the psychological impact of living with the constant threat of nuclear annihilation by Israel .. for generations.

If USA government were to discontinue its military, humanitarian and other financial support for Israel … there will be peace in the Middle East within the year: Israel will have seen the writing on the wall.

And a belligerent Israel will no longer have the funds and the diplomatic cover to hatch bloody designs against her neighbors in the region.
So, it seems, the USA is central and culpable in the continuing carnage. It is essentially a USA(Israel) vs. Palestinian conflict.
–
[Did you notice the goings on during (Pres-elect) BHO's pilgrimage to Israel? His commitment to Israel is total. Did you witness the venom in (VP-elect ) Biden's response when challenged on his support for Israel: He may as well have taken an oath to die for Israel. Total commitment to a foreign power, Israel, (which is appears indistinguishable from allegiance) essentially becomes a litmus test for anyone aspiring to a high office in USA. Treason?]

“If the Palestinians want to act like animals, I’ve no problem with Israel treating them like animals. In fact, anything less simply encourages that behavior.”
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Um, MNG, I’m going to have to point out that this is the kind of mentality that causes me so much discomfort.
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You, of course, have to realize that “Hamas” and “Palestinian” are two different things.
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This particular statement is typical of what I saw at Independant Arguement over in the UK.
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It is patently racist and demonizing. You should know better.
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Whatever your views on Israel are, which is your privelage, you should avoid racist commentary in your arguments.

MNG:
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There is no question that as a function of strategy, Israel did, in fact, keep all the inhabitants of Gaza at subsistance levels or worse.
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This is illegal, MNG, whatever the justification and was the cause of the rocket fire. Note that no less than three attempts were made to breach the crossings.
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MNG, I cannot respect any entitiy in the business of operating enormous open-air prisons.
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Times have changed, MNG, and the prisoners now have the capability to inflict pain on their captors.
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As another point, MNG, the fact that Israel is often blamed for kicking the snot out of helpless palestinians is true. That is because they do. But you refer to them as Arabs, which is true, but your purpose is to tie all Arabs to two of Israels’ most implacable enemies, Iran and Syria, and somehow extrapolate Israels’ conflict with them to the Palestinians themselves. Voila! Not such a nice tactic, here, MNG…
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Again, MNG, I’m going to chastise you for demonization and racism for justifying your postion.

“I’m not an Israeli, nor an expert on their country, but I seriously disbelieve that Israel stands anything to gain by maintaining hostile neighbors in slum conditions.”
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Where do you get this reasoning. Look up the “settler” movement. These individuals have very strong influence on all political sectors in Israeli government, and are the reason why Israel is even involved in the West Bank and Gaza.
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Now, MNG, what do you think of home-stealers?

“If the Palestinians want to act like animals, I’ve no problem with Israel treating them like animals. In fact, anything less simply encourages that behavior.”
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This is what I was responding to Mr Nice. I provided a list of the activities that lead to the founding of Israel. Terrorist activities. The same kind of activities you characterize as acting like animals, the kind of activities you think give Israel the authority to blindly strike out at jihadis without consideration for innocent lives. So sorry, the Israelis don’t get to wear the white hat, maybe grey, definitely not white. Again, it’s an eye for an eye, not a thousand eyes for an eye. You worshipers of the god of Abraham really f@cking ruined this place.

I’m really sick of the ignorance displayed by what are otherwise pretty decent people.
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It is astonishing to me how people can equate an entire captive population of 4,000,000 in both Gaza and the West Bank with the actions of at most, two hundred or so suicide bombers, and in the same breath, relentlessly ignore their own rampant racism.
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It’s sick how people, who otherwise are very decent people, can ignore the practice of “settlement activity”, yet blame the palestinians for resisting.
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To MNG, et al,
What would you do if someone knocked on your door, and told you that your land and house were being siezed for “security reasons”?
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I have, in my criticisms, have been very polite, except to place emphasis on clear acts of racism and demonization that have pervaded nearly every statement in defense of Israels’ actions!

Looks like we got a new thread, but this one needs a response:
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> It is astonishing to me how people can equate an entire captive population of 4,000,000 in both Gaza and the West Bank with the actions of at most, two hundred or so suicide bombers, and in the same breath, relentlessly ignore their own rampant racism.
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It’s curious – an understatement, of course – to see how the Arab population responds when, say, 19 Arab hijackers crash a plane into a building. Or when an Arab murderer holds his bloody hands – bloody from an Israeli who had been abducted, tortured and murdered – out a window to the applause of the crowds below. Or when a state-sponsored TV station broadcasts obvious lies about the Holocaust.
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If it’s just a few “bad apples,” where’s the condemnation from the rest of them? Where are the people marching in the streets for peace with Israel? Where are the people demanding that Hamas negotiate peacefully with Israel? Oh, that’s right – they voted for Hamas, a known terrorist organization. That doesn’t tell you something?
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And Cinci, don’t lump me with those lovers of Abraham’s God. I respect a lot of religions, but don’t follow any.

“Oh, that’s right – they voted for Hamas, a known terrorist organization. That doesn’t tell you something?”
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Yes, it does, MNG, but it tells me something different that what it tells you.
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The first point is, do you know what a circular argument is?
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Here goes:
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Bad Apples. No condemnation. The Bad Apples are Terrorists. Hamas is Terrorist. They voted for Hameas. They’re all Bad Apples.
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See? Nice. Like I said, in science, this is one of the most frowned upon faux pas one could commit.
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But that would only be appearant if one isn’t a blazing racist. So that statement of mine still stands.
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As for you litany, of course these things happened. But what of the literally thousands of incidents, large and small, from similar full blown terrorist acts, to letting Palistinians die at checkpoints, to stealing their land and houses?
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What of those things?
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I don’t blame the Palestinians for fighting…

juggernautcincinnatus est exterminata! Says:

” .. July 26, 1946 The bombing of British headquarters at the King David Hotel, killing 91 people… Around 45 people were injured. ..”
Wanton. Premeditated. Slaughter of the innocents.

When we thought that Libya was implicated in the slaughter of civilians we tagged it as a terrorist state, demanded punishing retribution for the realtives of the deceased and put in place a campaign od demonization ans economic sanctions that lasted for decades.

What about the terrorist state of Israel?

For starters, Rahm Emmanuel is at the highest level of government. He grew up in a family that supported and still supports those who unleash terrorism and commit terrorist acts.

Rahm’s father – his role model – was implicated in that bombing of King David Hotel and he is unrepentant. It is curious that BHO would not think THAT to be significant.

Would one who grew up in a family headed by a vehement supporter of terrorism and member of Al-Queda find himself or herself in the highest levels of Obama’s administration, say as a Chief of Staff? Would the mum-on-Rahm Joe Klein we know sit by idly, let it happen and hope for the best for war on terrorism and peace in the Middle East?

Therein lies an early indication that we may be in for upheavals in perhaps the most bloody chapter of pious USA’s recent history.

“Oh, that’s right – they voted for Hamas, a known terrorist organization. That doesn’t tell you something?”

OK. Suppose the issue is “those who vote for terrorists and known terrorist organizations”.
So, the people of the foreign country of Israel have voted for – and have been led by – known terrorists and terrorist organizations.

Does that tell you something?
- [That we love OUR terrorists? Of course we do. But keep that truism out of the discourse for now ..]

- [That we need to neglect the many voices in the world which refer to US as terrorists. Whose word?]

“For starters, Rahm Emmanuel (will be) at the highest level of government. He grew up in a family that supported and still supports those who unleash terrorism and commit terrorist acts.”

It is curious that those who were most vocal regarding BHO’s occasional encounters with Ayers are so blasé about the appointment of Rahm who spent a lifetime in an environment that celebrated, and still celebrates, terror.