In the Arena

It Won’t Be Short…?

Israeli ground forces have entered Gaza, further raising the stakes in what has, so far, been an extremely well-planned and, apparently, successful attempt to damage the military capability of Hamas. The incursion “won’t be easy and it won’t be short,” according to Defense Minister and presidential candidate Ehud Barak. Which sounds like trash talking to me–an attempt to maneuver Hamas into an early cry of “Uncle” and a cease fire agreement. Given Hamas’s essential intransigence, I wouldn’t hold my breath.

 Once again, Israel’s national security benefit will be severely mitigated if the impression begins to grow that it hasn’t been able to “wipe out” or “defeat” Hamas. The IDF can and probably will win an overwhelming military victory, given the fact that this has been much better planned (with much better intelligence) than the Lebanon campaign, and yet still be the perceived loser if the incursion isn’t a quick one–less than a week, I’d say. No doubt, the Israelis want the operation to be over before the Obama inauguration–it’s not neighborly to present your most important potential ally with a crisis at his moment of ascension. But it is very easy to get to stuck, and hurt, in alley-fighting.

I hope that Israel is working as hard behind the scenes to arrange a quick cease fire as it is fighting on the ground. It would be nice if we had a President of the United States with the credibility and ingenuity to make it happen. Perhaps we soon will.

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  • cfukara

    OK.
    You redeem yourself JK. But poorly.

  • newfloridian

    Gaza, then what Iran before January 20th. They’ve got to get their punches in before the adults regain control of American foreign policy. Another wonderful “No Win” operation by the Israeli government.

    When does it end……. “NEVER!”

    If we didn’t need middle east oil so badly we could tell them all to go F themselves and treat them like the Congo. But then again ther’d be some damn jounralist photographer taking pictures of some bloody child and we’d be all screaming, “Do something!”

    But I guess violence or hunger becomes the norm when that is all you know. The great commedian Sam Kinison used to have a bit about the starving children in Ethipia or somewhere else in Africa, saying don’t send them food, give them suitcases so they can move to where the food is. Same thing applies to Palestine, don’t send them aid, just help them all move to where the peace is.

    “What’s so funny about peace, love and understanding.”, Elvis Costello

  • formerlyjames

    What is the score now? 400 – 4 still? I became a non-supporter for the blitz krieg tactic after the first child was murdered. With all of the technology available, there isn’t a better way to neutralize the rockets? I guess that superb intelligence can’t pinpoint the location of rockets. At least we know the rockets exist, unlike the WMDs of Iraq that the neocons only claimed to have existed before the preemptive strike.

  • kathy

    Once again, Israel’s national security benefit will be severely mitigated if the impression begins to grow that it hasn’t been able to “wipe out” or “defeat” Hamas.
    .
    Or if the impression continues to grow that this is disproportionate. sgwhite: There are increasing members of the MSM who are pointing out, through stories or statistics, the burden on the Palestinians: Tom Aspell, Nic Robertson, Christiane Amanpour, among others.

  • rose83

    Has Gallup or anyone else done a poll of US public opinion on Israel’s actions in Gaza? (We all know what the results of such a poll would be elsewhere.)

  • kathy

    Nic Robertson is reporting that Israel is afraid that Hezbollah may support Hamas with strikes against Israel (and hence Israel is calling up so many reservists). Great. Now Israel is going to unite Hezbollah and Hamas.

  • formerlyjames

    But kathy, this is good news for our economy. Isreal has to spend all of the foreign aid we send, the most of anywhere in the world. They spend much of it on good ol’ Merican munitions. Bring ‘em on, by god.

  • kathy

    formerly: sigh.
    .
    Rose:
    If you go to Gallup.com there are a variety of polls relating to the Middle East, but it doesn’t look like there’s anything since November 26, so they haven’t polled this specifically. This discussion looks interesting (but I don’t have audio so I can’t listen):
    http://www.gallup.com/video/112402/Analyst-Insights-Mideast-Peace-Policy.aspx

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla
  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    “If we didn’t need middle east oil so badly we could tell them all to go F themselves and treat them like the Congo.”
    .
    “The majority of Americans want the US to play an active, but not a domineering, role in the Middle East peace process. A very strong majority of Americans wants the US to play an even-handed role in this process, but a majority feels that in fact the US favors Israel. This support for an even-handed approach extends to the idea of equalizing the level of aid between Israeli and the Palestinians in the event of a peace agreement, and a slight majority favors the idea of the parties sharing Jerusalem as an international city.”
    http://www.americans-world.org/digest/regional_issues/IsraelPalestinians/USrole.cfm
    .
    http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:pt91YAfH5tAJ:www.americans-world.org/digest/regional_issues/IsraelPalestinians/USrole.cfm+poll+israel+even+handed&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=firefox-a
    .
    I don’t think it’s the oil.

  • formerlyjames

    I will make one last explosive argument before I head out the back door. The establishment of Isreal is the problem, and it won’t go away. The Palestinians are the 2nd great victim of the holocaust, because that gave impetus to the zionist cause. Further impetus came from the failure to provide for the Jewish population in Europe after WWII. They should have been settled in their home countries, their financial losses, dignity, and roots restored. That didn’t happen, and we are still dealing with it. Again, I point to stupid foreign policy. Discuss or cuss as you may.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    It’s the confluence of neocon and fundie foreign policy goals.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla
  • rose83

    Kathy and SG, thanks for the data.

    formerlyjames, a Jewish state was and still is needed.

  • 53_3

    You know, all of this begs the question of why the Israelis persist in their “do as we say or we’ll destroy you” approach to any solutions to their security problems.
    .
    After 40 years of not finding peace that way, perhaps they really need to look themselves in the mirror and ask:
    .
    Is this really going to work?
    .
    If Israel is ever going to get peace, then perhaps they should be willing to give peace…

  • formerlyjames

    rose, why, exactly, is a Jewish state needed? To hark back 2000 years? Before the zionists, before Isreal, Jews had migrated and established communities throughout the world and most still exist in their own unique way. Why Isreal? For a head office or something? Rose, I suspect you will respond with a religious argument. Not being religious I will have no patience with it. I respect the Jewish culture, as I do all culture, but I respect no religion especally, other than for the hope that they don’t kill each other in the name of god.

  • 53_3

    ” hope that Israel is working as hard behind the scenes to arrange a quick cease fire as it is fighting on the ground. It would be nice if we had a President of the United States with the credibility and ingenuity to make it happen. Perhaps we soon will.”
    .
    I think that Israel has no intention of lifting the blockade. I think they will only demand an end to the rockets.
    .
    Everyone should remember that, since the blockade was imposed, the Gazans have nothing to lose by fighting. Death? They’ve already seen death. Peace? They run a far higher risk than the people of Sderot and Ashkelon do of dying in a rocket (or other) attack. Jobs? They havn’t had any for a while. Money? That’s choked off, too.
    .
    When you consider that Israel has done this, all because of Hamas’s charter and thier dislike for Hamas in general, why wouldn’t Gazans fight?
    .
    Israel is going to get mired there…

  • 53_3

    “formerlyjames, a Jewish state was and still is needed.”
    .
    I think Israel should continue to exist. They only reason they are mired in conflict with the Palestinians is that they have paid too much attention to the political wishes of the “settler” movement.
    .
    There are some raging racists in that group, and ethnic cleansing that includes death isn’t something they are shy about advocating.
    .
    If they were to clamp down on them, and pull out the “settlements”*, I think they would get peace.
    .
    After all, the entire Arab world is backing the Saudi plan, which calls fo just that in exchange for blanket recognition and trade.
    .
    Now what could be better than that? Another 40 years of war?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Here is my question, how can they tell who is Hamas and who isn’t in Gaza strip? At least with al qaeda in Iraq you could look for militants who were foreigners who came there just to fight. But these are people actually living in the Gaza strip their whole lives. Let alone the ones who are converting every single day because Israel’s over reaction. I really want to know how this doesn’t turn out horribly. There is no Hamas club house or costume.

  • formerlyjames

    53_3, the existance of Isreal is an empty debate, because as I mentioned earlier, it won’t go away any time soon. I agree with your summations of the desparation of the Palestinians, they are at the end of the rope and will fight like hell to survive as all animals, including humans, are wont to do. I agree with part of your last post about the zealot settlers. But in the end, Palestinian land, resources, dignity, very question of existance is challenged by Isreal. That will continue, until hell freezes over.

  • 53_3

    sg:
    .
    Here is a link from BBC that questions the film that the IDF put up on U Tube:
    .
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7809371.stm
    .
    It provides a very good argument against Israel’s ability to distinguish civilian from Hamas…

  • 53_3

    “I agree with part of your last post about the zealot settlers. But in the end, Palestinian land, resources, dignity, very question of existance is challenged by Isreal. That will continue, until hell freezes over.”
    .
    I think that the age of cheap rocketry has changed all of this, formerlyjames.
    .
    Israel is not large enough to support an army that could hold enough ground to keep them secure from rockets being fired from outside their reach.
    .
    This means that eventually, they must find a way to achieve peace, because if they don’t, any number of foes will be able to lob rockets their way with relative impunity.
    .
    A foretaste of the direness of this situation was their conflict with Hizb Allah.
    .
    They claim they lost because the war was “handled badly”. Not so.
    .
    They lost it because they are not equipped to fight an elusive enemy that does not need to hold ground to fire rockets.
    .
    And as time goes on, the rockets will only increase in range, power, accuracy, and detectability…

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla
  • formerlyjames

    53_3, point well taken, especially the elusive enemy part. Echos of VietNam, Che, and guerrila movements everywhere. I don’t mean to focus of communist wars, just sayin…Theology, ideology, it’s all the same when the blood flows.

  • 53_3

    You know, I used to think that Israel was a beacon of hope and morality following the hell the Jews went through in the Holocaust.
    .
    I even forgive the tactics used during their founding wars and can accept them for who they are and why they want to provide a homeland for anyone of Jewish faith.
    .
    What bothers me intensly though is their penchant for satisfying the needs of the “settler” movement has drawn them far from that ideal. So far, in fact, that to me, they are nothing but prison wardens trying to keep the inmates in the two largest open-air prisons from rioting.
    .
    This is a very ugly and reprehensable turn. The Palestinians fight for their homes, which are routinely taken along with their land, and Israelis still complain about Palestinians who have the temerity to disturb their peace.
    .
    This is totally wrong. The pundits have espoused complexity over empathy, and myopy over knowledge.
    .
    I don’t favor Hamas, even. One of them would probably be as quick to shoot me as anyone else, but I do see that Hamas and the terrorism problem in general is a byproduct of Israel’s unwillingness to reign in their own “settlers”.
    .
    I just cannot bring myself to respect any entity that has made a career out of imprisoning 4,000,000 people…

  • rose83

    rose, why, exactly, is a Jewish state needed? To hark back 2000 years? Before the zionists, before Isreal, Jews had migrated and established communities throughout the world and most still exist in their own unique way. Why Isreal? For a head office or something? Rose, I suspect you will respond with a religious argument. Not being religious I will have no patience with it. I respect the Jewish culture, as I do all culture, but I respect no religion especally, other than for the hope that they don’t kill each other in the name of god.

    formerlyjames, I only have time for a quick reply that will undoubtedly be inadequate. First, I definitely have no religious argument to make. My basic argument is that antisemitism had already been such an overwhelming presence in Europe for the last millennium or so before the holocaust that Jews could not feel sufficiently secure in Europe. They needed their own state. I don’t see why it necessarily needed to be in Palestine – I don’t know enough about the other options discussed to say that one of them would have been better – but it needed, and needs, to exist somewhere.

  • 53_3

    formerlyjames:
    .
    Israel doesn’t know it, but it is in a very, very serious quandery.
    .
    They eventually, in the near future, must find peace.
    .
    Unfortunately, they will never get it this way…

  • formerlyjames

    rose, thanks, but the existence of Isreal has probably exacerbated and inflamed antisemitism more than ameliorated it.

    53, I agree, and peace will only be achieved in restoring Palistenian dignity, assimilating the whole region, and living with mutual respect. Isreal holds the trump hand to accomplish that if they so choose. But I emphasize my pet peeve throughout these discussions, being the idiocy of US foreign policy, which as always has caused more harm than good.

  • gysgt213
  • formerlyjames

    BTW everybody, talking about antisemetism, the arabs, the Palestinians are semetic tribes too)).

  • toham

    53_3 writes:
    “What bothers me intensly though is their penchant for satisfying the needs of the “settler” movement has drawn them far from that ideal.”

    This is simple to understand. It is not the state of Israel that is satisfying the settlers needs. On the contrary, it is the settlers that are satisfying the state of Israel’s needs.

  • formerlyjames

    Yes, toham, of course, the crazy ass zealot settlers who occupy more land than has been stolen from the Palestinians already, and who rampage through the area creating havoc and hatred are the final solution to the deal. Thanks for sharing. Now we are informed.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla
  • formerlyjames

    sg, I went there and am not impressed. Phoney baloney politics as usual. Race is not even in the cards. The cards are corrupt and Burris should just decline the appointment. Let “honest” state government decide what to do next. They will be “honest” as long as the cameras are rolling on this issue. But race? Give me a break.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    formerly
    .
    Race IS in the cards now that the story about Harry Reid opposing three black men because they were “unelectable” is out. Phuck what you heard homie, its game set match for him. PERIOD.

  • formerlyjames

    sg, Reid is a fool. His clumsiness doesn’t bring race into it. I don’t really care about the Burris appointment. It’s just that it is compromised by Blago, and whatever Reid did or said doesn’t change that. The whole state government of Illinois, plus Obama, plus the whole Senate are opposed to whoever Blago appoints, regardless of race. But, phuck, homie sg, you do have a way with words.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    formerly
    .
    You are thinking of this in a scholarly way. But text books have nothing to do with emotions when it comes to racial issues and like I said before this issue is over for Harry Reid. The chances of him opposing Burris on Tuesday is now slim and none and slim just left town.

  • formerlyjames

    sg, I have lived for 8 years under the Bush regime. My scholarly thinking and text book knowledge have been greatly diminished as I have tried to be patriotic and support our president and our troops. But really, I don’t care about whether Burris is seated or not. And I don’t think Reid will have anything to do with it after having shot himself in the foot, for whatever reason or lack of he did that. Great if Burris becomes Senator. But if he does, unless he is a truly shining star, it will be the end of his political career.

  • formerlyjames

    I just reviewed this thread wondering how we got from Isreal aggression to the Illinois senator. It will be a long tommorrow I guess before Monday, when there will be a new blog.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    formerly
    .
    He is 71 years old. DUH

  • formerlyjames

    I laugh. Shows what I know. Good night, sg.

  • formerlyrainbow68

    Israel always shows great restraint, but has to defend herself. This is a terrible time. Hopefully, a truce can be brokered, but Hamas must be overthrown.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    formerlyrainbow
    .
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    .
    HAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHA
    .
    (deep breath)
    .
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    The first step
    .
    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6570544&page=1
    .

    Arrangements are under way for a Wednesday meeting between Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., and Roland Burris, the Democrat tapped by Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich to succeed President-elect Barack Obama in the U.S. Senate, ABC News has learned.
    .
    Burris confidant and business partner Fred Lebed of Chicago tells ABC News that, despite the opposition of Senate leaders, Burris is on track to arrive in Washington Monday, and on Capitol Hill, Tuesday.
    .
    “He intends to be sworn in and seated in the U.S. Senate,” said Lebed, who added that Burris and his “staff” are “looking forward to get sworn in, seated, and to roll up our sleeves.”
    .
    When Burris arrives at the doors of the U.S. Senate next week, says Lebed, “he will have a few close friends and supporters with him. he is very careful and has cautioned me to make sure this is not a spectacle.”
    .
    The Senate sergeant at arms, Chief Terry Gainer, expressed confidence that a confrontation on the Hill can be avoided, according to a Democratic Senate aide. The aide said the Senate majority whip, Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois, is working behind the scenes to set up the meeting between Burris and Reid.

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  • eumu1

    “Intelligence is a moral category!”
    All you guys, even our President and Secretary of State Rice are blaming the other; give me a break. Why and how do you accept the false headline of this article, “Israel Rejects Proposed Truce”? Well, what is the right one? All of you heard them saying it; the operation of the Israeli army is clear now because its intention is in fact “to break either Hamas’s capacity or its will to fire rockets” as Israeli Interior Minister, Meir Sheetrit even went further and said that the Israeli military operation aims at “breaking the will of the Palestinians, of Hamas, [the will] to continue to fire at Israel,” while an Israeli military spokesman, Maj. Peter Lerner, said a cease-fire is unnecessary because Israel is already allowing enough aid into the strip. The question is how are they (Interior Minister and the military) going to “Break the will of Palestinians…” without invoking the same old genocide policy, which in fact follows in the vein of the pedestrian logic, and there isn’t no other ways of interpretation, especially when combined together the Interior Minister Sheetrit’s renewed statement and Maj. Lerner’s horrifying statement? And so the right headline of the Post and even the Times ought to be ‘Israel confirms the old genocide policy by rejecting proposed truce’.

    So listen carefully to the following piece of advice about the self-importance of men: the statue of their consciousness that is very near the bankruptcy, as the freedom of technology which has been brought about as a narrowing process of choosing that has always slid down to the extermination of freedoms and the fxation of instincts by domination; and so stop babbling about “Intelligence” whatever you meant to be, because what we see here is no longer the issue of human intellect, which of the Jews and Hamas are prone to and superior to mass killing, but that comparable to the progress of animal power, which as we all know began in the 60s with the Palestinian Slingshot vs. Israeli missile, if you remember at all, which really reminds us of the intelligence factors about the North Vietnam equipped with the prehistoric weaponry against the modern monstrosity of the US War technologies (of the Nixon Administration).

    And so if you are serious about your own intelligence, may I suggest that you should stop tossing around that particular word, because you sound like a neurotic who keeps trying to wake up from an unpleasant delirium out of the dreams of an existence without shame: from the failed attempt at its identity with the absolute Idea (E.g. the fetishised globalization of exchange value: so that there is no idea of “outside” unknown to the sphere of exchange value, just as today there is no longer any thing that cannot be expressed in terms of exchange value, not even to the dreams of a ghost seer which would be thought-provoking by virtue of the very idea of the outside, instead of positing fear, just as the enlightened mind believes that there would be no fear where there is nothing unknown to men, but this parallel is undeniable to the aim as positive common to both, i.e., the elimination of outside as the target of fear and uncertainty, which in fact encroaches the reason of man’s basic fear to eliminate and confront its immediate, undermining thinking experience and promote its contrary; this false positivity that considers that the thought’s distancing from reality and its reaching for the outside is either non-existence or reducible to a part of reality, is unfortunate for it is to realize the obvious reason in reality as direct that the ghost seer’s dream instead becomes transformed into an absolute Idea of immediacy, because money makes the man).

    If you are so inclined, with your own impeccable points of intelligence, you would be able to respond to the little thesis I used to entertain my friends with; Given all the good qualities of men such as the reasoning for the advancing power of human progress against the progress of power, men are still not intelligent enough to stop killing other men, and I am afraid that their self-righteousness would continue until they would exhaust themselves with that reasoning in order to kill others, which, given its momentum unfettered or promoted by the privilege of self-preservation, would result in an end the helpless self-liquidation in a self-unconscious scheme of things.

    Here is the content of my thesis for you to argue against the unyielding self-abandonment: how to make these men aware of that scheme, which is apparently anti-reason used to be the coverup of the fallacy of existing, constituted subjectivity: in a permanent warfare, the stronger is always right, and who said this? …because it sounds like the self-righteousness of archaic Zionism! Nonetheless, it alternatively defines the modern self-righteousness, precisely because the latter aims at the eradication of the old concept itself. And so change the world from the bottom up. Is this ultimate ground that we still must trust in man?
    David D. Yun from Bangkok, Thailand: Jan. 4, 2009

  • 53_3
  • 53_3

    toham:
    .
    In a sense, you are right. There are many “settlers” or advocates of “settlement” in high places in Israels’ government.
    .
    Regardless of the views that might surround Zeevi’s assassination, Zeevi lacked a very large measure of humanity, and is someone who stands as a near perfect example of this…

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    53_3
    .
    At least one Klein got it right
    .
    By the way David Gregory is PWNING Harry Reid but good right now on MTP

  • mjkoch

    Palestinians send their children into Israeli schools, busses, restaurants, and supermarkets with bombs strapped to their bodies to kill as many innocent men, women, and children as they possibly can. After the suicide bomber completes their mission of wanton murder of dozens of people the Palestinians dance in the streets and pass out candy celebrating.

    Palestinians fire hundreds of rockets into Israeli villages and towns trying to murder as many innocent people as possible and when Israel responds Israel is called the aggressor. The aggressors are the people who have murdered thousands of innocents here on 911, in India, Iraq, Israel, England, Spain, Fiji, The Philippines and six different Moslem countries all in the name of Islam against Jews and Christians. The aggressor is not the nation of Israel, a country the size of New Jersey. It is the Palestinians and Moslems who teach their children, from the time they are born, to hate Jews and Christians.

    Have people forgotten that Israel withdrew every settler and every soldier from Gaza three years ago? What did they get in return? Six thousand rockets fired at their civilians the past three years. Let a terrorist group take over Canada or Mexico and begin firing rockets at American cities and let’s see how our government responds. People speak about proportionality as though a country has no right to do whatever it can to stop attacks against its own people. Hamas is sworn to the destruction against the State of Israel and Israel has the right to protect its people by any means possible. Period.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Harry Reid is now saying he never said he didnt want Jones, Triple J, and Davis. Gregory is pointing out the race element that Politico did a story on.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    mjkoch
    .
    You are an idiot. Try sticking to the facts at least a little. And invoking 9-11 after we went after the WRONG people in Iraq doesn’t help your simpleminded cause.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Harry Reid just admitted Burris might be seated. Predictable.

  • syedh03

    of all these “thousands” of rockets fired into israel, how many have actually killed civilians? have they caused billions of dollars in damages to infrastructure? have they created a humanitarian crisis? was israel occupied by palestinian soldiers? was israel cut off from food, water, electricity, and medical supplies? do israelis have to face check points when trying to go to work, school, or prayers? is it palestine who has been occupying israel for the last 60 years? this whole notion that hamas is the cause of all this by firing some fire crackers into israel is a weak and pathehtic argument. this current genocide is just another long list on crimes commited by the zionist regime. this is not the first time they have done anything like this and it won’t be the last. they will be the reason for the start of WW3. would’nt that be ironic that WW2 was a cause for the defense of the jewish people and WW3 will be because of the them?

  • 53_3

    “Have people forgotten that Israel withdrew every settler and every soldier from Gaza three years ago? What did they get in return? Six thousand rockets fired at their civilians the past three years.”
    .
    mjkoch:
    .
    As for the beginning of your rant, aren’t you trying to paint all palestinians as suicide bombers, or the breeders of suicide bombers?
    .
    I have to chastize you for this racist bit of rant. You should know better. You are trying to demonize all for the actions of a few. Talk about stereotyping with a vengeance.
    .
    Now, the “settlers” may be gone from Gaza, but Israel chose to replace them with starvation and imprisonment.
    .
    So do you value your freedom? Or are you going to next complain they shouldn’t have voted for who they voted for in what was as “free and fair” an election as could have taken place. So of course, bring that argument!
    .
    You’ll just make yourself look a bit stupid talking about “democracy” when you don’t really mean it.
    .
    On the subject of hate, well, yes, I’m pretty certain they do, and it has to do with that fact that you relentlessly ignore the death on the other side, which, by the way, is far more frequent than any of the the inhabitants of Sderot, Ashkelon, and other southern Israeli cities experience.
    .
    As for other countries, well, it’s no different from them hating us.
    .
    The trouble is, that they are your neighbors, and the tide is turning. You had better learn how to extend your hand in freindship and actually try to give peace rather than grabbing land by stealing it, building walls, assassinating their leaders, using checkpoints to deny medical care, and other various “tried and failed” methods the captors have visited on the inmates in these two territories.
    .
    As for the Palestinians hating you?
    .
    What do you really expect? They really don’t have the ability to do much harm to Israel and it is past time Israel give up the West Bank and Gaza.
    .
    Unless, of course, you like war, which I see as a distinct possibility…

  • 53_3

    sg:
    .
    I think they ought to seat Burris and let Paterson do what he is legally allowed to do.
    .
    I’ve never liked Harry Reid. At the risk of touching a nerve of yours (and I apologize in advance), he is only slightly better than Liebermann.
    .
    Have you noticed that the GOP has now picked up on Reid’s strategy and is taking a page from his book to threaten to block the seating of Franken?

  • 53_3

    Oh, by the way, mhkoch:
    .
    The palestinians have every right to fight imprisonment, harassment, and the misery imposed on them by the Isrealis.
    .
    Period.

  • Ohg Rea Tone

    The problem with a bar room brawl is that combatants will be back next Friday night it lubricate their cause. …………….

    http://thefiresidepost.com/2009/01/04/bar-room-brawls-in-the-middle-east/

  • 53_3

    Oh, and another thing, mjkoch:
    .
    Don’t tie 9/11 to the Israeli cause.
    .
    Don’t do it at all.
    .
    We do not have to blindly support Israel, even when crimes against humanity are commited by them, to fight terrorism.
    .
    As a matter of fact, more than a little evenhandedness in the future might just be a solution with a much better chance, mjkoch.
    .
    And, mjkoch, I might point out that Israel has committed terrorist acts too, and some of them are held up as heroes in the pro-”settlement” sector of Israeli politicians.
    .
    Not my cup of tea…

  • 53_3

    Ohg Rea Tone:
    .
    It’s a good idea to get away from that mentality.
    .
    Of course, who will make the first move?
    .
    The captors or the inmates…

  • 53_3

    mjkoch:
    .
    I might point out that I did a couple years at Independant Argument in the UK, and you are only mildly racist. I’ve tangled with much, much worse than you.
    .
    So if I was you, I would get your big brother if you want to continue this debate…

  • 53_3
  • helee

    Sanctions on Gaza were intended to prepare for the assault from Israel that
    is taking place right now, suggested two reporters at the main Israeli
    newspaper, Haaretz, about a year ago:

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/917385.html

    Specifically, the reporters, in their analysis last January, said the
    disruption of electricity and lack of fuel for Gaza were theoretically

    >>supposed to reduce the number of Qassam rocket attacks against Sderot and
    >>the other border communities. In practice, defense officials believe that
    >>the Palestinian militants will intensify their attacks in response to the
    >>sanctions.

    >>As such, the real aim of this effort is twofold: to attempt a new form of
    >>”escalation” as a response to aggression from Gaza, before Israel embarks
    >>on a major military operation there; and to prepare the ground for a more
    >>clear-cut isolation of the Gaza Strip – limiting to an absolute minimum
    >>Israel’s obligation toward the Palestinians there.

    >>Several weeks ago, Barak said Israel “is getting closer” to a major
    >>operation in the strip.<>Many soldiers will be killed and so will many innocent Palestinians,
    >>because the IDF will employ a massive artillery bombardment before it
    >>sends infantry into the crowded built-up areas. This will be a “dirty
    >>war,” very aggressive, that will have scenes of destruction similar to
    >>southern Lebanon in 2006. The sole exception: unlike in Lebanon, the
    >>population there has nowhere to run.<<

    Heather

  • 53_3

    helee:
    .
    This is entirely believable, and is a typical instance of Isreali “bloody mindedness”.
    .
    It solves none of their problems, though, and is not a departure from any of their tactics, either in Gaza or on the West Bank.
    .
    It is also, when you look at it, a very acuurate description of a prison. As a matter of fact, two of them, both of which are the largest open air prisons in the world.
    .
    Israel, by dint of the very act of enforceing Gaza’s isolation has tacitly accepted responsibility for their welfare as they have also done on the West Bank.
    .
    Make no mistake, that last point applies to both areas in Palestine, and unlike those in Ashkelon, Sderot, Beersheba, and other southern Israeli towns, these citizens cannot avoid Israeli raids, and must die in place.

  • 53_3

    The Israelis are also claiming that they are trying to avoid the mistakes of Lebanon:
    .
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28494226/
    .
    The problem is, that Israel did not commit any errors that led them to defeat in Lebanon. Their defeat there was inherent in the fact that they do not have a large enough army to hold enough territory with enough intensity to keep rocket crews, who don’t need to hold territory, from firing rockets.
    .
    I am thoroughly sick of hearing from those people who hide behind appearant “complexity” avoid this completely obvious flaw in conducting that war at all!
    .
    In Gaza, by dint of a small amount of territory only will they have a chance.
    .
    But, mind you, they will now become stuck there…

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Juan Cole. http://hellotxt.com/l/UfOf
    .
    Are Israel’s propaganda efforts failing because the neocons and Bush have undermined the credibility of such propaganda?

  • 53_3

    Well, Jay, they’ve certainly done the same thing with photointerpretation Bush and the neocons did…
    .
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7809371.stm

  • allie111

    The Borgen Project has some good info on the cost of addressing global poverty.
    $30 billion: Annual shortfall to end world hunger.

    $550 billion: U.S. Defense budget.

  • http://sudhan.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/bushs-last-war-crime/ Bush’s Last War Crime? « Dr Nasir Khan

    [...] of intervening, unless Israel gets into trouble and requests help. The Swampland blog at Time suggests that Obama’s approach might be different from Bush’s: “No doubt, the Israelis want [...]

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