In the Arena

The Myth of the Decisive Blow

The brilliant Israeli writer David Grossman has an op-ed in the New York Times today calling for a unilateral cease fire by the Israelis in Gaza. I agree with him. 

It is significant that Grossman, who tends toward the peaceable and writes with the authority of a father who lost his son in the 2006 Lebanon fiasco, does not oppose the initial assault against Hamas. I agree with that, too. Hamas was asking for it. The constant missile strikes into Israel were intolerable, with the promise of worse to come. Hamas had taken the opportunity to build a considerable arsenal during the cease fire (a pause that Hamas, not the Israelis, abandoned). So, of course, Israel was justified in its targeted attacks on the Hamas weapons caches, military training facilities and military leadership in the first days of its offensive–and it is justified in its campaign to eliminate the tunnels from Gaza to Egypt that are the source of much of the weapons and contraband. 

But the longer this offensive continues, the more it begins to seem that Israel is aiming for a “decisive blow” against Hamas–an impossibility, a fantasy promulgated by decisive blowhards, that raises the stakes in this operation and makes it more likely that Israel will emerge from this the perceived loser. Beyond the public relations consequences, there is also the likelihood that with the best targets taken out, lesser targets will yield increased civilian casualties and foolish over-targeting, which is what happened in Beirut in 2006. If Hamas survives a continued aerial onslaught and ground war, which it surely will, it wins. 

 If the offensive ends now–with a flood of humanitarian aid from Israel and its allies–a significant message will have been sent to Hamas: if you persist in lobbing rockets at our civilians, we will reserve the right to punish you severely, peremptorily, at a time of our choosing. (The current offensive has also sent Hamas a significant message from the neighboring moderate Arab countries, especially Egypt: don’t expect any sympathy from us.) 

Ultimately, the only solution to the situation in Gaza–if there is one–is intense, patient, long-term negotiations mediated by the United States and, perhaps, by Israel’s neighbors. The Bush Administration, egged on by Jewish neoconservatives and Christian evangelicals, sided too often and without question with Israeli military overreactions and foolish strategies–such as the 2006 Lebanon war and the unilateral abandonment of Gaza (without fully negotiating the future relationship between Israel and Gaza). It thereby relinquished what should be the U.S. government’s natural role, as an interlocutor trusted by both sides. 

In the end, there are no decisive blows in Gaza. There are occasional military actions to limit the military threat of Hamas. And there are negotiations. If the negotiations–which should include direct talks with Hamas–work, ultimately there may  no longer be a need for military actions. But that will require a more balanced U.S. foreign policy and a saner Hamas, chastened perhaps by this week’s necessary Israeli kinetics.

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  • Andy from MA

    Happy New Year, Joe. Perhaps in the new year you can please comment on the fact the political views about peace with the Palestinians are not monolitic and that Israel is based on being a secular society.
    .
    I appreciate your posts on the middle east. Thanks for keeping this issue in perspective.

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    In addition to the unilateral cease fire, Israel should announce concrete action to increase the flow of non-military supplies into the region. I have no idea what is true and what is not, but the conventional wisdom that the blockade is causing starvation and suffering is troubling. Fix it, and publicly. Then, call for a permanent end to missile fires with clean(er) hands.

  • nibblybits

    Knowing Hamas will not stop the missile attacks on Israel (because they have no end objective other than to kill as many Jews as possible) why not finish the assault until current Hamas capability is taken out? (I say current, since we all know that Iran will continue to supply Hamas with all the weapons they want.) Why not take out the leadership? Why not take out all the military caches?
    .
    As long as the other ally Arab leadership are willing, take out as much of Hamas as possible. Why not?

  • srw12

    I bet that blockade was getting intolerable as well. Too bad Israel decided to say no to ending it in exchange for another ceasefire.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    As I’ve said before, I don’t feel fully qualified to speak of such things because the ‘calculus’ people use to gauge acts of war include infinite values. But if nothing else, one should always consider the possibility that you’re creating enemies faster than your eliminating them. Many acts of war fail this test and as always, the most enthusiastic proponents of the maximum amount of force can only be described as delusional.

  • bryanfromhouston

    What Paul said.
    -
    And. If Israel really wants to go down this road, do it wholesale. If you want to really cruch Hamas, you will have to crush the spirit of the people. They will essentially have to do to the Palestinians what Hitler nearly did to them. It will end the conflict, but at what cost.
    -
    For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Good post, esp. on the US role. Someone, I think Josh Marshall, said the US should push Israel to do necessary, difficult things– ie, disband unlawful settlements.
    -
    Also, I think that Israel is at some risk of losing, in the eyes of influential, favorably inclined Americans, its “Good” status. Of course Israel can strike against Hamas… but 300 deaths, many of civilians, after about5 Israelis?

  • kathy

    what pourme said.
    .
    and Paul’s “if nothing else, one should always consider the possibility that you’re creating enemies faster than you’re eliminating them.”
    .
    Very disheartening that Israel doesn’t understand the strategic importance of the sympathy they could gain if they ceased fire and brought and food and medical supplies in. They’ve never been particularly interested in what the world thinks, and therefore they’ve never gotten suckered into voluntarily disadvantaging themselves. But they’ve missed opportunities, too.

  • pintortwo

    Joe, I agree that ending the assault now is the best next step, but “Hamas was asking for it”? The scores of civilians killed or injured haven’t asked for it. By your reasoning Israel’s inhumane blockade constitutes “asking for it”. Isn’t that a violation of the ceasefire? And what of the aggressive settlement of disputed areas? My understanding is that Hamas has significantly curtailed missile attacks. It may well be impossible for Hamas to eliminate all attacks as some are perpetrated by rogue actors (foreigners, civilians).
    .
    Hamas is culpable for the atrocities they committed. So too is Israel. So too is the US for funding Israeli armed forces and providing the very weapons used in the attacks- and don’t think that the “rest of the world” doesn’t see this.
    .
    If we are to broker peace, the US must be a neutral actor. We are not. Your premise is hypocritical. It renders this: “The Bush Administration… sided too often and without question with Israeli military overreactions and foolish strategies… It thereby relinquished what should be the U.S. government’s natural role, as an interlocutor trusted by both sides” as a meaningless statement.
    .
    You justifiably criticize the Bush administration for blindly siding with Israel. But who in Congress has taken Israel to task for these “foolish strategies”? How about in the Media? Joe, don’t fall into that trap.

  • nibblybits

    Elvis says: “…but 300 deaths, many of civilians, after about 5 Israelis?”
    .
    Is it really 5 Israelis? You aren’t counting the suicide bombings, the constant state of attack with missiles incoming.
    .
    And the civilians you speak of, we know that Hamas hides within the civilian population in Gaza. That much of the civilian population are active Hamas participants, supporting, arming, manning their terrorist actions.
    .
    What I find interesting is how tepid has been the response by the Palestinian Authority from the West Bank. It reflects the fracture within the Palestinian leadership, which does not view Hamas favorably. And the surrounding Arab countries see the assault for what it is — deserved retaliation against Hamas — and have stayed out of it. So why not take the opportunity to do as much as possible?

  • Tom in The Swamp

    Of course, the problem with Isrealis rushing in aid is that some d@mned fool, Fatah or Hamas or just plain tickecd off because an Israeli air strike killed one of his relatives last weekend, will start shooting at the Israeli aid workers, and that’s the end of the aid.

    Like bryanfromhouston, I’m afraid that the “crush Gaza utterly” final solution will end up in play.

    Such a slaughter would be very convenient for Fatah (whou would love to see Hamas wiped out), Mubarak (who wants a mess like Gaza on ihis northern border?), the Saudi royal family (who is reputed to have given Israel a hush-hush gren light to go into Gaza), the Bush administration (what’s left of it) and even possibly for the Ayatollahs and their Iraqi friends (who can always make political use of distant martyrs to divert attention from their own inadequacies).

    All of them would stand to gain something from the mass shedding of Gazan blood.

  • nibblybits

    Well, it’s true that while the Hamas/Fatah divide exists, there is no single authority representing the Palestinians that can make a deal for the whole population. How do you conduct diplomacy when you know from the get that it won’t be honored by some part of the opposition?

  • pintortwo

    (N)othing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave.
    .
    It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. . . .

    -George Washington in his 1796 Farewell Address.
    .
    .
    Via Glenn Greenwald. The entire article is a worthy read.

  • Tom in The Swamp

    nibblybits:And the civilians you speak of, we know that Hamas hides within the civilian population in Gaza. That much of the civilian population are active Hamas participants, supporting, arming, manning their terrorist actions.

    Are you saying that you endorse Israel escalating its ongoing violation of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Conventions from withholding supplies necessary to survival (which it has been doing off and on since 2007) to its present active and violent collective punishment of non-combatants for the actions of combatatants who may live among them?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Joe Klein says
    .
    I agree with that, too. Hamas was asking for it.
    .

    Yeah Joe Klein. The people who were being starved out by the Israelis were asking for it. I mean who doesn’t want to have to eat grass to survive because they are blockaded in. Oh and next time try getting your facts straight ass hole, Israel broke the ceasefire by bombing tunnels in the Gaza strip. No wonder the great Joe Klein waited damn near a week to weigh in on the situation. He was probably at home cheering on the videos of dead Palestinians. I am sure you are so proud.
    .
    BTW Joe Klein, why don’t you include numbers in your post about how many Israelis were killed by those Hamas Rockets in the last say 5 years?
    .
    For some perspective on the Hamas “rockets” here is a clip from the Young Turks.
    .

    .
    I think I made the same point on Saturday but I used an automatic weapon instead of a flame thrower in my analogy.

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  • bitterpill8

    Gradually, very gradually, support for Israel is eroding. The tactics used by Hamas and Hezbollah of seeding their fighters among the population always presents a dilemma for the traditionalists in the Israel Army: men and women who prefer to follow the “rules and laws of war”. If one drops bombs, no matter how precisely, one ends up with five dead girls in one family dying in horrendous circumstances. That will sink into the Arab psyche. The same for victims of suicide bombers: Israeli survivors carry their losses too.

    In the end this will only be resolved by the Israelis and the Palestinians. We are hopelessly compromised, and the EU is reluctant to be forceful.

    The Israelis have lost the moral authority they once had.

    Joe, you have come a ways on this road to the middle ground and taken lots of flak. But people like you who know both the politcs here and in the the Middle East have to engage. I read Nir Rosen and take what he say seriously.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Nibbly says
    .
    Is it really 5 Israelis? You aren’t counting the suicide bombings, the constant state of attack with missiles incoming.
    .
    And the civilians you speak of, we know that Hamas hides within the civilian population in Gaza. That much of the civilian population are active Hamas participants, supporting, arming, manning their terrorist actions.
    .
    What I find interesting is how tepid has been the response by the Palestinian Authority from the West Bank. It reflects the fracture within the Palestinian leadership, which does not view Hamas favorably. And the surrounding Arab countries see the assault for what it is — deserved retaliation against Hamas — and have stayed out of it. So why not take the opportunity to do as much as possible?
    .
    1. Yes it is 5 deaths, Israelis do NOT live in a constant state of fear because its damn near impossible for any suicide bomber to actually get into Israel right now. If you think their living conditions are rough you should read up on what life is like for any citizen living in Gaza. And don’t forget that they can’t leave. Let me say that again, they CAN’T LEAVE.
    .
    2. Hamas doesn’t hide with the civilian population, they ARE part of the civilian population. They aren’t an army. They do have a police force and guess what, they actually do a pretty good job of keeping the peace. Hamas leaders are also duly elected officials as well as care givers in the community. Its easy for us to label them terrorists and put them in a box from our comfy seats over here but you might want to ask what that really means. Hamas hates Israel and is committed to their destruction. Ok what tools do they have at their disposal to carry that destruction out? Rocks and “rockets”. There is a reason why pro Israel politicians and groups always point to what Hamas SAYS they want to do to Israel.
    .
    3. Nibbly are you serious? You might want to google “protest” and “Gaza” and see what the other Arab countries are REALLY saying about this conflict. You might also want to look into what the prime minister of Iraq had to say about it yesterday along with the Ayatollah in Iraq monday. Egypt politicians want no part because they already took heavy casualties in other wars against Israel over Palestinians. But the Egyptian citizens are PISSED.

  • pintortwo

    nibbly- “there is no single authority representing the Palestinians that can make a deal for the whole population.
    I don’t agree, Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people. We chose to ignore the results since we didn’t like the outcome and actively undermine their democracy. Perhaps if we recognized the government, worked with regional partners (yes, I’m talking about Iran, and others) Hamas could have been a non-military entity and an advocate for peace.
    .
    Look, I’m not trying to argue that Hamas + Iran = good, US + Israel = bad. Rather that until we can evaluate the problem in an honest and non-biased way, we can’t begin to solve it.
    .
    For instance, is the US supplying the Israelis advanced weaponry “just” while Iran supplying Hamas with 20 mile range missile launchers “evil”?
    .
    And regardless of “right or wrong”, by supplying these weapons and not condemning Israel and Hamas equally, we have placed our soldiers at a greater risk, undermined the Iraqi government, fueled terrorism, strengthened Hamas’ cause and fostered instability. For further elaboration, Juan Cole makes all these points and more over the past three days.

  • bitterpill8

    nibbly: you sound like a propagandist. It is easy to understand passion. But in conflicts like this we and the Israelis prefer to talk to the people we like or who can be twirled around our fingers (Abbas) and we refuse to engage those we don’t like – Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran. Maybe we should be talking to Iran and by extension to Hamas and Hezbollah. That way we will get our own feel for issues. Nowadays we rely on the Israelis for a regional perspective, and they are not going to give us anything which undermines their own policy prescriptions.

  • centfan

    I think the problem has always been that things have to be “good” before anyone fears the return of bad times.
    .
    Let’s take a wacky example. How much support is there for a “Free Hong Kong from China” movement? What would the relatively prosperous people of Hong Kong do if young twits started carrying missiles through the streets and firing them at the Chinese soldiers? They’d go to the nearest Chinese soldier and tell them where the missiles were. That results from a balanced use of carrot and stick with China getting a piece of the action.
    .
    What would the Palestinians do if they had money or a hope to do something more than just survive and the same twits in Hamas showed up to get Israel to drop the hammer? They’d take out the troublemakers themselves.
    .
    If you never give people something they can then lose they have no reason not to kill you. Their choice is death or imprisonment then death.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Via Glenn Greenwald. The entire article is a worthy read.
    .
    The comments also deserve attention.

  • nibblybits

    I must say that I find my own reaction to the recent turn of events rather interesting, because up to now, I have been of the Jimmy Carter view of the Israeli-Palestinian situation. But I don’t hold any view about that region with conviction. It’s too complicated, too morally ambiguous. Day to day perspective shifts, and bottom line, I have never personally been there and seen for myself, though I am blessed enough to know many who have and are generous with their observations.
    .
    Because of that, I also reject dogma from any party that frames the situation as one side good, the other bad. And therefore I don’t really buy into sgw’s take on things. (I really don’t agree with you on those tunnels. And as for Egyptian citizens — that’s to be expected, knowing Egypt at all.)
    .
    Do I think humanitarian aid should be denied suffering children and women? Umm, I hope not. That would be pretty heartless, wouldn’t it? But I’m also wary over a civilian population that so eagerly straps on the bombs to kill other women and children.

  • nibblybits

    bitter: I hope I don’t sound like a propagandist. I hope you’re not saying that just because I hold a different opinion than you.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    But the Egyptian citizens are PISSED.
    .
    It’s not like there are any citizens anywhere happy about any of this.

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  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    But I’m also wary over a civilian population that so eagerly straps on the bombs to kill other women and children.
    .
    I’ve never really understood why retail attacks on civilians by small stateless actors is evil terrorism, while wholesale attacks on civilians by states is mere collateral damage.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    nibbly
    .
    You don’t have to “buy my side of things” the facts are the facts. Hell I didn’t say the Israelis were evil and Hamas was good. But people who can’t call something wrong when its staring them in their face are simply weak in my opinion. If you think Israel is justified to kill over 300 people and wound more than 1000 more because 1 person died then I think YOU are weak. Period. Is Hamas right for killing that one person? Obviously not. Is Israel right to deny the citizens of Gaza basic necessities because they want to punish them and force Hamas out of office? The Geneva conventions say they aren’t. If you can bring forth some facts that say Israel is justified then feel free. So far all you have done is made broad sweeping opinionated statements without many facts to back them up. It is what it is.
    .
    Go back and look up the terms of the recent ceasefire and notice that Israel NEVER complied with it in terms of easing the sanctions against the Palestinians in the Gaza strip.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    But I’m also wary over a civilian population that so eagerly straps on the bombs to kill other women and children.

    .
    Yeah because using tanks, helicopters and F16s is what “civilized” countries do when they want to make that kind of statement.

  • pintortwo

    FYI: Israel is the only Middle Eastern country with nuclear weapons. They are not a member of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Iran has signed this treaty granting them the right to develop nuclear energy for civilian use and they have complied with all disclosure requirements. Also, Iran has not attacked another country since the Ayatollahs have been in control. The US is a NPT member too. As such, we are obligated to protect Iran from Israeli aggression.
    .
    Just thought I’d throw that out there.

  • srw12

    jayackroyd,

    Its because the law reflects the interests of those in power. Terrorism is always a weapon of the weak.

  • jose

    On Cspan a few minutes ago, the UN representative in Gaza stated clearly that Israel was the one that broke the cease fire agreement and even stated that Israel pretty much agreed with her.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    jose
    .
    Be careful, you don’t want to be labeled an “extremist”
    .
    The facts. oh they burnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

  • bitterpill8

    nibbly: let me dispense with the word propagandist. I don’t want to split hairs. I said you “sounded”…perhaps I should have focused on the passion. You hold strong views, and express them forcefully, but propagandist no. By all means let us agree to disagree. I rather have some plain speaking than the namby pamby stuff. But you open yourself to rejoinders. I see things as more nuanced, with no good versus evil simplicity so beloved of our Bushites. Jay made the point: when we kill civilians it is often “accidental” and they are “collateral damage”. It is one of the more inhumane contributions we have me to our language. We kill from a long distance and do this with “precision guided missiles”. Pressing buttons is so clinical. We see F 16s (US made) at work over Gaza. I am guessing that our technical prowess has not allowed us to use weapons that identify terrorists or Hamas.

  • nibblybits

    sgw: If you think that you can look at the last week in a vacuum, then I think your perspective is rather narrow and uninformed. Facts are not facts; they are open to interpretation and change based on perspective. My viewpoint is based on Hamas being a proxy for Iranian mischief, and in that regard, I do think Israel has some basis for retaliation.
    .
    I guess you are against the inexorable ground invasion, huh?

  • grandsophy

    so, does this mean then that India can also begin air-strikes against the terrorist camps inside Pakistan since Pakistan is “asking for it” with its denials and continuous support of LeT terrorist activities in Kashmir ? What about in retaliation for Mumbai? No? But isn’t that the same principle that Israel is striking a “decisive blow” for?

    Ok, i guess, Pakistan’s nuclear weapon status is a deterrent. I wonder then why Iran wants to pursue nuclear weapons? Hmm.

    But I can see why Israel would want to bomb the daylights out of the people living in Gaza – seeing how it always yields a more compliant Palestine. Se?

  • grandsophy

    so, does this mean then that India can also begin air-strikes against the terrorist camps inside Pakistan since Pakistan is “asking for it” with its denials and continuous support of LeT terrorist activities in Kashmir ? What about in retaliation for Mumbai? No? But why not?

    Ok, i guess, Pakistan’s nuclear weapons pose as a deterrent. So that’s why Iran wants nuclear weapons? Hmm.

    But I can see why Israel would want to bomb the daylights out of the people living in Gaza – seeing how it always yields a more compliant Palestine. No more grandmothers becoming suicide bombers even.

    Way to go, Israel! Now that is being a “responsible” nation. Just the way the international community wants India and Pakistan to behave no matter what the provocation. I get it.

  • grandsophy

    sorry for the double post, browser problems.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    nibbly
    .
    Who do you think is looking at last week in a vacuum here, you or me? You say Israel was justified because Hamas broke the cease fire. Thats pretty vacuumish if you ask me. No accounting for what happened the previous six months. No accounting for proportion. No accounting for the FACT that Israel broke the cease fire. Just “Hamaas shot at them so they are right”. The only reason you reject my facts is because they go against your beliefs. But that doesn’t change them at all. Perspective has nothing to do with the facts of the blockade, the facts of the terms of the ceasefire the facts of the restriction of necessities into Gaza. Like I said if there is a different “perspective” on these facts than please provide them.
    .
    As for a ground invasion HELL YES I am against it and not just because of proportion. Its because when Israel is done and they won’t have totally destroyed Hamas they will give Hamas even more legitimacy and any danger they are now will multiply. That is a lesson of history that has stood the test of time. Its what made al queda strong in Afghanistan and Hezbollah strong in Lebannon. I am sure you think its a GREAT idea to go and kill those bad Hamas folks though right? Israel by there actions in dealing with the democratically elected government of Gaza is ensuring that Hamas will never be wiped out there. Just like we keep creating more al queda in Iraq and afghanistan.
    .
    Maybe you should step out of your own preconcieved notions about the situation and actually do some contemporary research on it. Just saying that Hamas is a proxy for Iranian mischief when you can’t possibly give me an example of that happening in the last 6 months is again weak. Hell I defy you to quantify your own statement and produce an example of “Iranian mischief” that Hamas in Gaza has pulled out any time recently. I dare you, I double dog dare ya with a cherry on top.

  • nibblybits

    sgw: It’s hard to respond to you when you react so emotionally. I get that you feel strongly about your position. I respect that. I’m not really interested in trading facts with you, because I think it would be pointless, and my mind is still open as to what is happening. I expressed that doubt in post #22.
    .
    That said, I never said Hamas broke the ceasefire. That thought really never occurred to me. I’m not for or against a ground invasion. I’m not even sure what they are trying to achieve. However, when you write statements like, “That’s a lesson of history that has stood the test of time,” I am agoggle that a thinking person would write so.
    .
    I also find it amazing that *you* are telling *me* to discard preconceived notions. I already said that I did, right there in post #22. Look, if you are pro-Palestinian, that’s a-okay with me. I’m not interested in telling you that you’re wrong. I may not agree, but I can’t say that you’re wrong. I think that’s the difference between us. You have a set opinion you think everyone else should share, or else they are wrong. Me, I don’t know who’s right and who’s wrong, so I’m not interested in changing anybody’s mind. As far as I’m concerned, anybody who says they can make sense of the Middle East is full of cr*p.
    .
    Feel free to flame me now.

  • fhmadvocat

    Sgtwhitefla,

    I agree with you that Israel’s reaction was out of proportion to the attacks by Hamas and that Israel has not lived up to lifting the blockade, but there are other actors involved. Don’ forget, Gaza has a border with Egypt and the Rafah crossing could be used to alleve any Israeli blockade.

    The problem is Egypt has not lifted the blockade on the orders of President Abbas who hopes to squeeze Hamas out. But the blockade has had the opposite effect, and Hamas can blame any problems on Israel.

    Hamas breaking the cease fire was a message for Egypt and Abbas as much as a message to Israel. However, Hamas miscalculated how far Israel would go. Israel, ironically, in going after Hamas, is doing the bidding of Egypt and Fatah. However, Egypt and Abbas are not happy with the extent of the Israeli offensive.

    Winners: Hamas, the moderate Israeli parties in power, and the hardliners on both sides. Iran. Hezbollah.

    Losers: Abbas (the biggest), Likud (only a very little bit), moderate Arab states. United States.

  • spacestationark

    I think that the utube photos show that Israel is justified in doing what they are doing/unfortunately we live in a very imperfect world.
    It is amazing how we are willing to spend tons of money on the wrong things. If both sides would spend the money spent on weapons on something more productive they wouldn’t have these problems but like all of use we rather run in circles. Resistance to change is really amazing.
    David Nowel
    http://www.spacestationark.com

  • fhmadvocat

    At first I thought the Israelis were being very dumb. They can’t get rid of Hamas. Killing and wounding civilians only plays into Hamas’ hands. A gound war only isolates Israel from the world community.

    However, Israel has to deal with the Arab regimes it is doing the dirty work for. Fatah would love nothing more than Hamas to be crushed. However, how many Palestinians must die for that to happen? Israel would love nothing more than to take out Hamas and turn Gaza over to Fatah. But the Israelis know Fatah could not hold on to Gaza. Israel already views Abbas as weak and ineffective. Granted, only belatedly has Israel sought to booster Abbas. (Sharon made the mistake of leaving Gaza unilaterally without a symbolic agreement with Abbas).

    The question for Israel is how do they get out without Hamas claiming victory? They can’t talk to Abhas, who had to suspend talks once Israel attacked. The Egyptians are between a rock and a hard place. They are as responsible as Israel, yet while privately they are happy to see Hamas attacked, as a mediator, they can not say so publicly.

  • sevenoaks07

    There was a post here by bitterpill8. I read it. It responded to nibbly. Nothing unexceptional yet is went for moderation? Why? Now it has disappeared. Is there a censor at work today?

  • nibblybits

    seven: #19?

  • http://jargonyowords.wordpress.com/ brooke

    Your article is no different than found in most other western media reports. Hamas’s bombs are nothing compared to the fire power that Israel has. Israel has one of the largest militaries in the world (for a land the size of Vermont). You aren’t mentioning WHY Hamas, and the Palestinians, may be ticked off – the blockade of Gaza, the slow starvation of it’s citizens. Honestly, if some country were doing this to American citizens, Americans would be calling for something worse than the hand built bombs of Hamas. Remember – when America was struck we not only devastated Afghanistan, but we also broke international law and attacked Iraq. To point fingers at Hamas and say “bad” is to not acknowledge our own responses when we are being oppressed.

    It’s not difficult to find the the stories of the effects of the blockade of Gaza and the occupation of Palestine on the people there. Do just one google search and find them. Read the stories of pregnant Palestinian women dying at check points during labor because the Israeli Defense Forces won’t let these women get to the hospital, read stories of the food shortages in Gaza and people dying because they can’t get adequate care for various illnesses, read stories about Palestinian school children afraid to go to school because they have to walk near illegal Israeli settlers who have attacked them. Then imagine those stories are talking about you, your family, your children.

    I don’t support Hamas’s violent actions, but I do understand it. I am a pacifist, but after walking around the West Bank this summer I began to understand why the Palestinians resort to violence. When you are slowly being choked to death sometimes the only action you can imagine taking is a violent one because it seems like the only way to save yourself from a slow death.

    -Brooke, Logan, UT.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    spacestationark
    .
    How much money would you say Palestenians in Gaza or even Hamas in Gaza spends on weapons?

  • sevenoaks07

    Thanks nibbly; it was in response to your #23 after #19. I recall him saying: No, you are not a propagandist!”

  • Art Pepper

    re: Hamas broke the cease fire.
    -
    This ties in with centfan’s comment @12:51. Wouldn’t it be helpful to the process if Israel took confidence-building measures during the ceasefires, such as suspending illegal settlement activity? Instead they continue to appropriate land.
    -
    I guess that can’t happen due to ultra-ortho factions within Israel. But doesn’t that fact itself signal that Israel is not yet serious about peace? So what’s the benefit to Hamas of maintaining the cease fire?
    -
    For 2009 I want p tags.

  • http://www.rivervision.com/upwp/?p=644 rivervision » new years resolutions AND more gaza.

    [...] that said.  here’s a comment i left at a time magazine blog in response to their post “the myth of the decisive blow” [...]

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Deep Thought
    .
    The majority of Americans think George Bush is a dumb ass when it comes to foreign policy, but they back him when it comes to Israel.
    .
    Go figure.

  • Cliff

    The majority of Americans think George Bush is a dumb ass when it comes to foreign policy, but they back him when it comes to Israel.
    .
    Greenwald has cited some studies showing 71% of Americans think we should stay uninvolved, meaning that the unequivocal support given to Israel by our politicians is not reflected in the populace.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Cliff
    .
    What Greenwald cited is that most of the people polled feel we either shouldn’t pick sides or should side with the Palestinians. But if you look further into Greenwald’s piece he admits that while most of the country thinks we shouldnt back either group, of the people who actually chose the people who wanted us to back Israel damn near blanked those saying we should back Palestinians. How much pushback have you sees here in America since last Saturday to what Israel is doing in Gaza? Hell people are scared to say anything because if you do you get labeled an extremist or a terrorist sympathizer. Don’t get me wrong, Greenwald’s piece still makes a lot of good points about what our role should and shouldn’t be in this conflict. But I just wasn’t impressed with his numbers all that much.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    I can’t spell for sh!t today. Im out

  • fhmadvocat

    Brooke,
    I appreciate your post. However, the Palestinians in the West Bank and not the ones firing rockets into Israel. In fact, the Palestinians in the West Bank has left it up to the Israelis to police violent settlers.

    At the same time, why doesn’t Egypt open up the Rafah crossing into their own country. It is my understanding they will only open up that crossing to the Palestinian Authority and not to Hamas. It is also my understanding they are doing this on the orders of President Abbas. Clearly Israel should lift its blockade, but so should Egypt.

  • 53_3

    Basically, Israel should simply let Gaza go, close it’s own crossings, lift the blockade and get out of the prison warden business once and for all.
    .
    If Gazans can build an economy and get a real chance at participation in the world economy unfettered (something that the WB still lacks due to “settlements” and other impediments), Hamas will probably refrain from attacking Israel with rockets. They would have too much to lose. Yes, they would be entrenched in Gaza, but that is beside the point, really. Like Joe has so aptly said, that is just blowhard cr@p.
    .
    Hamas had tried a ceasefire with far less payoff, so this isn’t so farfetched.
    .
    The only problem is that the Israelis seem to be too bloody-minded and too ignorant of the changing paradigm (cheap rocketry) even after their failure to muzzle Hizb Allah last year.
    .
    For the Israelis, the days of being able to act with impunity are over. Now, Israelis, for all their vaunted ability and military might, must consider other avenues, such as actual, real, humanitarian approaches instead of “do what I say or I will destroy you”. The Israeli body politic now experiences pain.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    fhmadvocat
    .
    Egypt got tired of getting their ass handed to them by Israel over the Palestinian people so they agreed to a peace treaty under Anwar Sadat. Now they will do whatever they have to including selling out the Palestinians in order to make sure peace is kept between themselves and Israel. Kinda like how even though we were “outraged” over Russia bum rushing Georgia you didn’t see any American intervention.

  • Cliff

    sg – First the obvious. 70-30 still shows that most people, by a wide, wide margin, do not agree with Bush’s views on this. And yes, there hasn’t been a lot of pushback, but since when is it news that our political discourse doesn’t reflect public opinion?
    Next, an idle thought: Greenwald’s stats imply 29% of people chose a side. Bush’s approval rating is about 28%, last I heard. Could there be a lot of overlap between the two?

  • ortidefan

    Until Hamas recognizes Israel’s “right to exist”. I don’t see anything other than war as the outcome. A truce does nothing more than prolong the conflict. Hamas (and the people who elected them) will need to win the war or recognize Israel for there to be peace.

  • ortidefan

    53_3,

    Hamas is not interested in a 2 state solution. Hamas is only interested in the distruction of Israel. Would you negotiate with someone who’s stated goal is the your death and the death of your family and friends?

  • nibblybits

    C’mon, people. Bush’s attitude towards Israel is the same as US leaders for the last 60 years, Dem or Repub. Obama’s isn’t likely to be much different.
    .
    What the US public is polled about their attitudes towards Middle East relations have to be taken with a grain of salt. Considering that after being in Iraq for almost 6 years, most of us can’t locate the country on a map. Or Israel, or most countries. Sad to say.
    .
    Egypt cooperates not out of fear, but because we pay them to. For the last 30 years, they have been the recipient of the 2nd largest foreign aid package* our government gives out. About 1.7B a year thereabouts. In exchange, the oppressive regime (not so much the citizens) stays out of most Israel issues and on occasion, they nicely interrogate our rendition suspects using methods most of us don’t want to know about.
    .
    Still, they do nothing about the tunnels that sgw mentioned earlier that link Egypt and Gaza in which arms and missiles are regularly smuggled. That’s why Israel targeted them.
    .
    On the other side, the settlements are ridiculous and to my knowledge, most Israeli citizens except for the extreme nutjobs are against them too. That the Israeli government doesn’t do something about them is a stupid roadblock towards some agreement.

  • nibblybits

    * Though in recent years Pakistan probably has overtaken Egypt in the foreign aid rally.

  • ortidefan

    Nibblybits,

    Although, the settlements are a problem. The deal breaker is Jerusalem. Israel is not going to give access to the Jewish sites to a hostile state. The Palestinians don’t seem to want peace enough to give these to the Jews. Sounds like war is the only option.

  • henqiguai

    re: #8 ortidefan Says:

    Wednesday, December 31, 2008 at 5:13 pm

    53_3,

    …Would you negotiate with someone who’s stated goal is the your death and the death of your family and friends?

    .
    Seems to have worked for African-Americans and (this may be open to debate) the bulk of the (surviving) indigenous peoples of the Americas. Kind’a worked out that way in South Africa as well.
    .
    It’s just not a black & white situation over there, and the myths we try to impose on how to work things out just don’t hold water for that part of the world (actually, said myths don’t really work all that well for us, and they’re our myths).

  • ortidefan

    Henqigaui,

    You missed my point. Israel will never seriously negotiate with Hamas until Hamas recognizes Israel’s right to exist. Any freedom/autonomy that is allowed Hamas will only be used toward the destruction of Israel. So there is Israel has no reason to negotiate or life the blockade.

    The only way they will move toward peace is if Hamas can convince Israel that any Palestinian state would not be a hostile one. Which at this point would be highly unlikely.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    ortidefan Says:

    Until Hamas recognizes Israel’s “right to exist”. I don’t see anything other than war as the outcome. A truce does nothing more than prolong the conflict. Hamas (and the people who elected them) will need to win the war or recognize Israel for there to be peace.</blockquote.

    Do you REALLY realize how ridiculous that sounds. I tell you what, I don’t recognize you right to exist. Do you feel threatened now? Of course Hamas has that in their charter yada yada yada. By what means could Hamas POSSIBLY stop Israel from existing? Is it stupid on their part not to change their charter? YES But ask yourself this question, how is Israel any different when they don’t recognize Hamas’ legitmately elected leaders? When Israel starts taking the high road and actually allowing the borders to reopen and let the people of the Gaza strip have access to their necessities THEN they will have the moral standing to retaliate against Hamas. Hell if they had just done that the people of Gaza just MIGHT have thrown the Hamas leaders out of office. But when you agree to a ceasefire and Hamas actually enforces it but Isreal still doesn’t open the borders who do you think the people will blame Hamas or Israel? Believe it or not there are factions of Hamas that actually do good things for the people in the Gaza strip. They also don’t play when it comes to enforcing the law in Gaza. So by collectively punishing the people of Gaza for Hamas’ transgressions they are effectively guaranteeing the continued support for Hamas by the Palestinians in the Gaza strip.
    .
    Its funny because didn’t we actually just pay off some “terrorists” in Iraq to run Al Qaeda out during the Anbar Awakening? Why the hell can’t we seem to understand that the same thing would work in Gaza? No we would rather make all the people suffer and starve and create more Hamas followers than do anything to actually, you know, promote peace in the region.

  • cfukara

    ” … not oppose the initial assault against Hamas. I agree with that, too. Hamas was asking for it. …”

    Joe, which of the following would you print:
    1) “I do not oppose the initial (Hamas) assault against Israel. Israel was asking for it. ”

    2) “I may viciously condemn what the USA DOES. BUT Israel, my Israel, can do no wrong.” [Treason?]

  • 53_3

    “Hamas is not interested in a 2 state solution. Hamas is only interested in the distruction of Israel. Would you negotiate with someone who’s stated goal is the your death and the death of your family and friends?”
    .
    Well, they simply don’t have the power to do it. No negotiations needed other than to give Gaza it’s freedom and get out of the prison business.
    .
    What would you suggest? Another hundred years of war, just on general principles.
    .
    BTW, “settlers” are a core problem.
    .
    Practicality over rhetoric, my man…

  • 53_3

    ortidefan:
    .
    Just because Israel wants this or that doesn’t mean it’s available for the picking.
    .
    The age of cheap rocketry has changed everything.
    .
    The prisoners can inflict pain on their captors…

  • ortidefan

    sgwhiteinfla,

    The “right of existence” is a critical step in the peace process. Without Hamas committing to an outcome that includes Israel as a state, war is the only outcome.

    I think Israel does recognize the election of Hamas. Israel recognize that the Palestinian people voted for war with Israel. So the Palestinians are getting exactly what they voted for.

  • 53_3

    ortidefan:
    .
    Have your ever read Leon Uris’s Mila 18?
    .
    You should.
    .
    It is about what people, without resources other than their own wits, can not only resist, but activly oppose a far superior military might.
    .
    I think you are much too caught up in the “rightness” and the “complexity” of the conflict to really cut to the core here. And that is that the Gazans really have nothing to lose by fighting.
    .
    Repeat. Rinse. Dry.
    .
    The Gazans have nothing to lose by fighting.

  • 53_3

    ortidefan:
    .
    It is only that in Isreali thinking. It is not, and never really was anything more than left over rhetoric.
    .
    If you were even halfway right, then the pervious ceasefire would have never happened. And, only in your mind did Palestinians vote for war.
    .
    They voted for Hamas simply because they have seen that after 40 years of settlers and relentless occupation, they knew Isreal was not interested in peace.

  • ortidefan

    53_3,

    The “settlers” are an issue. But one that can be negotiated for peace. i.e Israel abandoned the Gaza settlements. Jerusalem and access to the temple mount/western wall have been the cause of war for 1000 years.

    Opening up Gaza will simply give Hamas more resources to wage war. I can’t see why Israel would even consider it.

  • 53_3

    “Israel recognize that the Palestinian people voted for war with Israel.”
    .
    I think at the base of it, ortidefan is relentlessly avoiding empathy because it would have the opposite effect of what he is trying to acheive:
    .
    The demonization of the entire Palestinian population.
    .
    What I suggest is that ortidefan mentally place himself in Gaza city at this moment. He should see and feel and live at subsistance levels like the Isrealis have enforced on the common population regardless of whether those individuals approve of Hamas or not.
    .
    He would finally come to the realization, that they not only are people, too, but that, even if they disapprove of Hamas, they like Isreal still less…

  • 53_3

    ortidifan:
    .
    Really, there is no fundamental basis for your claims.
    .
    There is nothing fundamentally complex about this. As a matter of fact, you are simply claiming that that is what it should be because that is what has always been.
    .
    Not much in that for a solution.
    .
    As far as Israel will do, we don’t differ on that. But keep in mind that the human side of this demands a different standard, and it is likely that in the near future, the “do what I say or I’ll destroy you” approach will bring about lamentable consequences.
    .
    Keep closely in mind the Hizb Allah conflict last year…

  • ortidefan

    53_3,

    Well, the Palestinians voted for a party that was interested in War. So they did vote for war. Regardless of the reason for that vote. Now they are losing that war and people are bashing the Israelis for fighting the war.

    The cease fires are only due pressure put on the Israelis by the UN and Hamas needing a break to resupply.

    All (about 25) the Israelis I know want peace but they are not willing to give up Jerusalem or allow refuges to return to do it.

  • 53_3

    ortidefan:
    .
    This is not about just what Israel wants any more. What you are relentlessly overlooking is that Israel is currently in the business of imprisoning 4 million people.
    .
    The “settler” issue is one that should not require “negotiations”. The reason:
    .
    These are crimes against humanity. Ethnic cleansing is illegal.

  • ortidefan

    If It were me? I would call for unconditional surrender and beg the USA and UN for money! I would bulldoze the Mosque on the temple mount and build the 3rd jewish temple. Which would get peace and a better life for me and my family. But I am not enthralled by religion.

  • 53_3

    “So they did vote for war.”
    .
    So you’ve talked to a lot of Israelis. We already know where Israel stands. No new news there.
    .
    But, but!
    .
    You have yet to ask even one Palestinian what their views on your claim above is.
    .
    It’s not only demonization you are practicing, but also ignorance…

  • ortidefan

    I tried to talk to some Palestinians and the basically threatened me. So I got out of there as quickly as possible.

  • 53_3

    “If It were me? I would call for unconditional surrender and beg the USA and UN for money!”
    .
    Well, you appearantly seem to know what’s good for them, don’t you?
    .
    Your bigotry is showing here, just slightly, you know…

  • nibblybits

    sgw: I don’t think the Anbar approach would work here. Remember that in Iraq, al-Qaida were interlopers, mostly jihadis from other countries causing havoc for the residents. It didn’t take much persuading to convince the Sunni leaders to evict the foreign fighters, especially once they received an income to live on.
    .
    In Gaza, there’s not much you can do to pay off the citizenry. It’s religion. And real estate. And to their eyes, the interlopers are the Israelis. They will fight, money or no, for their religion and their real estate.
    .
    Perhaps there could be a debate about whether the Gazans would be less violent, less prone to Hamas, if they were more prosperous than less. But didn’t they try that route, paying them off, in the 70′s and 80′s with the PLO? And all Arafat did was steal the money. It’s a hard bet to take though, if you’re Israel. Because the money could be going straight to arms instead of schools or hospitals.
    .
    One last thing: you can’t argue that Hamas is actually doing good things for the people of Gaza. Yes, they might provide some services, like Hezbollah did in Lebanon, but it’s all for the purpose of consolidating their power. Then they start launching rockets and the retaliation falls upon the people, many of whom are used as human shields. Not so good after all.

  • 53_3

    Have you guys watched how ortidefan’s real motivation is slowly being exposed, here?

  • 53_3

    ortidefan:
    .
    It’s not likely you would get support there. You are beginning to sound the typical racist’s complaints about the Black community.
    .
    And the end product:
    .
    Your ignorance. BTW, did you know like Nibbly just mentioned, that Hamas and Hizb Allah both have performed social services for Palesinians?
    .
    It might have something to do with why they might side with them.
    .
    After all, food tastes a bit better than cordite…

  • 53_3

    I might point out here, ortidefan, that yes, you have accurately portrayed the Isreali governments’ point of view here, but you haven’t been able to support the rationality of any of what you have stated other than to put words in Palestinians mouths in order to paint all of them in the worst possible light.
    .
    What I would suggest you do is to try to look at this from a little different viewpoint:
    .
    One that is not rooted in dehumanization and dismissal.

  • nibblybits

    Oops. Sorry if I got the dates of the payoffs wrong. This article seems to outline the PLO and PA’s money situation, and the various aid they received from the US, EU, and other Arab countries.
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_14_54/ai_88990523

  • nibblybits

    And please don’t yell at me that the article is from National Review. You can quibble with the details, but the outlines and the general thrust of corruption is the point.

  • bitterpill8

    Nibbly: some time back I said you were NOT a propagandist and the post was monitored. I just saw KT on CNN – the BPT – and was impressed. But back to Israel: really neither side has acquitted itself with distinction. The Israelis with their history of suffering and oppression are now doing to the Gazans what was done to them. On this New Year’s Eve that is the real tragedy, Nibbly: the oppressed are now the oppressors.

    But to you and yours, and all fellow Commenters: Happy New Year. Wish I could send the same message to Israel and Gaza.

  • 53_3

    One final note to ortidefan:
    .
    Your contention that “the Palestinians voted for war”, besides being ignorant, is quite ridiculous when you consider this possibilty:
    .
    That the Palestinians voted for whomever they percieved as being most likely to look after their interests.
    .
    I should not fail to point out that there is no difference between their electoral motivations and ours!

  • 53_3

    A couple year stint at BBC’s Independant Argument BB would give anyone’s sword a sharp edge, if I do say so myself!
    .
    Should bump heads with real Israeli “settlers”. Ortidefan is milktoast…

  • nibblybits

    bitter says: “the oppressed are now the oppressors”
    Sadly, I agree with you. There are no white hats in the players, I fear. And now I’m going to stop before Mika’s dad shows up here and PWNS me.
    .
    Happy New Year to all. Here’s hoping that 2009 isn’t as big a mess as 2008.

  • 53_3

    Happy New Year!
    .
    I echo those sentiments, but I’m afraid that what’s on the plate for ’09…

  • 53_3

    One final note:
    .
    A quote, from this story from BBC about rockets falliing on Beersheba:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7806736.stm
    .
    On Wednesday, another rocket hit a high school, also empty because schools, the university and most businesses in Beersheba remained closed because of the attacks. “Just look,” said Eyal Khuzut, 36, gesturing to the near deserted streets. “No one wants to live like this.
    .
    Now look, baseline for all of you:
    .
    How do you think the Gazan’s live? Not only do they not have any options but to stay where they are and die, but the likelihood of getting killed by an Isreali air raid is much, much greater.
    .
    And, on top of that, they have been forced to live at subsistance levels or below.
    .
    Perhaps, just perhaps, Eyal Khuzut might realize that they shouldn’t force an imprisoned population to live like that as well.
    .
    After all, doesn’t one good turn deserve another? Don’t you reap what you sow? We’ll see…

  • ortidefan

    53_3,

    Actually, I am an Atheist. But the Palestinians have been at war for 60+ years and conditions are the worst they have ever been. Jihad has given them nothing except a lot of dead children. Why not surrender? Why not use passive resistance like Gandhi or MLK? Could it really be any worse?

  • Art Pepper

    re public opinion, do most Americans feel strongly about the affairs of other countries, other than feeling vaguely isolationist? Heck, most Americans probably think the West Bank is a finanicial institution.
    -
    Also, if you say in public that you support the Palestinian cause, the US gov’t will probably trace your IP address and start reading your emails, the 4th ammend being suspended and all.
    -
    Happy new year to all!

  • ampman

    It’s extremely difficult to stop the effects of constant brainwash from their early age of Muslims, about what to do to the Jews. I guess most commentors haven’t looked into the Quran.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Neither MLK or Gandhi were being starved out by their oppressors. Just something to keep in mind since people keep throwing their names out. I could also point out that at the same time MLK was preaching non violence Malcolm X was preaching “by any means necessary” and he had quite a few followers also. Do we really know if it was ONLY MLK that gave us a break through in Civil Rights? I think not.

  • stanley77

    Which side broke the rules of the ceasefire? Do we believe one sides version without knowing the facts? Is it not true that each side controls the ‘facts’ that their side reports in their news media? Is not the quickest way to determine one’s side is to question any ‘fact’? We do not know ‘who’ broke the ceasefire.

    Do we not all know that it is contrary to international law to impose group punishment on a population to gain an advantage? We may think this is OK in a case that suits our personal views but are we proud and do we feel that torture and indefinite detainment is also OK? Can we pick and choose what laws apply in each case? Is this a standard for todays moral, that we can decide if laws apply to us and conversely if laws apply to you?

  • http://www.diggcsdn.com/2008/12/31/year-end-clearance-all-medical-myths-must-go.html Year-End Clearance: All Medical Myths Must Go! | Digg PhotoBlog

    [...] The Myth of the Decisive Blow TIME ,January 01, 2009 The brilliant Israeli writer David Grossman has an op-ed in the New York Times today calling for a unilateral cease fire by the Israelis in Gaza. … [...]

  • 53_3

    ortidefan:
    .
    Riiiiiiiight.
    .
    And those Black Americans sure didn’t know what was good for them, either.
    .
    You just don’t get it, ortidefan. Look upthread to comments 19, 22, and with particular emphasis on 37 and then answer this question:
    .
    Would you die for America?

  • 53_3

    Oh, ortidefan:
    .
    Look at comment number 41, too.
    .
    I’ve made all these rebuttals there. No sense in me repeating any more than I have to.
    .
    Comment number 41 captures the essence of this debate…

  • 53_3

    Ortidefan:
    .
    One final comment.
    .
    I don’t say that you, by extrapolation, are a racist against Black Americans in my above example, but the point is this:
    .
    Your arguments concerning this issue frequently paralell racist rationalizations used agains the civil rights movement in the ’60s.
    .
    That is all.

  • 53_3

    sg:
    .
    ortidefan thanks it was all done by sitting in front of library entrances and singing cumbaya.
    .
    I remember debating H. Rap Brown (now deceased, I think) when I was in jr. high school. I was much more ignorant then (not that ignorant, though..), but I will say that he was part of the stick that complemented MLK’s carrot…

  • riteur

    One can not turn back the hands of time or rewrite History to repair all the numerous wrongdoings committed by both Arabs and Israelis since the creation of the State of Israel. How difficult is it for Mr. Joe Klien and all the other journalists reporting about the Gaza conflict to see, write or report that there are, and have always been TWO major wrongs occurring simultaneously in the M.E. equation? The M.E. equation as it presently stands is no different from asking “Which came first? The chicken or the egg?”. There is no single RIGHT answer. Regardless of which answer you choose, the outcome translates into senseless human suffering, maiming, bloodshed and loss of human lives on both sides. It is a vicious circle of violence where both Arabs and Israelis share equal culpability. The loss of a single Israeli life is one too many. By the same token, the loss of a single Arab life is also one too many. There can be no moral justification of putting a higher value of one human life versus the other.

    Blaming Hamas as being the sole perpetrators (or Israel) is siding with “the chicken came first” advocates and lending a blind eye to the egg alternative, or viseversa . Such biased stances (on either side) becomes a ruse or a literary euphemism to sanitize the death’s or sufferings of so many innocent victims, be they Arab or Israeli.

  • zebra23

    Likud party does not recognize right of a Palestian state on the west bank. How different is that than Hamas platform, which it has disavowed numberous time?

    Stop provoking starving people with blockades & then acting the victim with they react.

  • 53_3

    “The loss of a single Israeli life is one too many. By the same token, the loss of a single Arab life is also one too many. There can be no moral justification of putting a higher value of one human life versus the other.”
    .
    I agree with you entirely on this. If one looks at this more closely, one will recall that there were not just one, but several assaults on border crossings. This phenomona has been completely ignored, even if it was engineered by Hanas.
    .
    It points directly to the imprisonment of the Gazans – which is a crime against humanity.
    .
    The breakdown of the ceasefire is a direct result of Gazan desparation at being forced into subsistance-level living, denied access to medicine and health care, and any freedom of movement beyond the borders of Gaza.
    .
    You can blame Hamas if you want to, but it evades the truth that regardless of the desires or opinions of Gazans, they had no choice but to suffer under the blockade imposed by Israel.

  • ortidefan

    53_3,

    I completely agree that Palestinians are losing the war and are suffering worse than the Israelis. However, As long as Hamas fires rockets and does not surrender, they are at war and a blockade is part of war.

    Unlike you, I don’t believe that the US and UN would allow for the genocide of the Palestinian people after an surrender.

  • 53_3

    “Unlike you, I don’t believe that the US and UN would allow for the genocide of the Palestinian people after an surrender.”
    .
    ortidefan, they will not surrender.
    .
    You may think that that is the best move, in your mind, but they appearently don’t. And it seems that they are the ones to decide this.
    .
    I’m not impressed with either the Israeli governments’ strength, it’s philosophy when fighting wars, or it’s humanity. They, nor you, realize that the age of cheap rocketry has changed the paradigm for all.
    .
    And it’s the kind of stuff that by now should be quite appearant that the inmates have the capability to inflict pain on the captors. Israel is no longer invulnerable to reactions to it’s own conduct.
    .
    I would recommend again that you read Leon Uris’s Mila 18.
    .
    Like I said, my comment on 2, #41 (number 91, actually) places the situation in places like Beersheba in the context of the the region as a whole – which includes Gazans, 28 miles away.

  • 53_3

    Looks like I was right, ortidefan.
    .
    Maybe I just understand human nature better than you. Or something.
    .
    I mean, you do have the Israeli point of view down pat, but, like I said in one of my comments earlier, the Gazans have nothing to lose by fighting.
    .
    They didn’t and won’t surrender and it looks like the Israelis are moving in.
    .
    And a “blockade” when there is no war (such as during the truce) has a name:
    .
    imprisonment
    .
    Read Mila 18. It’ll do you good…

  • http://loolt.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/what-if-the-media-reported-9-11-as-it-did-gaza/ What if the Media Reported 9-11 as it did Gaza « Talking Virtually To Myself

    [...] Joe Klein, The Myth of the Decisive Blow, Time, December 31, 2008 (”Israel was justified in its targeted attacks on the Hamas weapons caches, military training facilities and military leadership in the first days of its offensive”) [...]

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