Obama, Gays and the Radical Pragmatism of the Separately Equal

On his website, Change.gov, Barack Obama lists his gay and lesbian agenda under the heading of “Civil Rights.” It is, without any doubt, a very liberal plan: allow gays to serve openly in the military, expand hate crimes statutes, support same-sex civil unions, oppose a constitutional ban on same-sex marriage, and expand adoption rights for gays and lesbians. The platform, however, makes no mention of supporting gay marriage, because, well, Obama does not support giving gay couples the right to civil marriage. This is, it must be said, a rather conventional position for a Democrat to take, and it is widely seen as politically savvy. Around the country, voters continue to reject the idea of gay “marriage,” even as the nation becomes more comfortable with the idea of gay rights.

Obama himself has suggested that his position on gay marriage arises less from a personal conviction than from a tactical know-how. Back during the primaries, Obama explained that  “marriage” was not the best terrain to fight for gay rights.

Look, when my parents got married in 1961, it would have been illegal for them to be married in a number of states in the South. So obviously, this is something that I understand intimately, it’s something that I care about. But if I were advising the civil rights movement back in 1961 about its approach to civil rights, I would have probably said it’s less important that we focus on an anti-miscegenation law than we focus on a voting rights law and a non-discrimination and employment law and all the legal rights that are conferred by the state. Now, it’s not for me to suggest that you shouldn’t be troubled by these issues. But my job as president is going to be to make sure that the legal rights that have consequences on a day to day basis for loving same sex couples all across the country.

This is a remarkably complex, if only subtly controversial, argument. He suggests that laws preventing gay marriage are as unjust as laws preventing interracial marriage, the very union that led to his own birth. But he further argues that the best way to fight this injustice is to indefinitely cede the central moral argument–that in America all men (and women) must be treated equal–and rather score incremental victories that push the nation in the right direction. In Obama’s formulation, it would have been indefinitely acceptable for interracial couples to be denied the rights of civil marriage, if other progress was being made to advance racial equality. In the same way, it is indefinitely acceptable for gay couples to be denied the right to civil marriage, if other progress is being made to give gay couples similar rights. There is an unstated assumption here: If Obama is successful he will clear the way for a subsequent politician to support gay marriage, just as the broader civil rights movement cleared the way for an end to anti-miscegenation laws in 1967 by the (activist?) U.S. Supreme Court.

Whatever advantages this approach scores tactically, it also carries with it a cost. Namely, Obama effectively cedes the clarity of a moral argument for gay rights equality. He cannot argue that separate is not equal, because he is endorsing a separate system for gay and lesbian couples, an accommodation that seems, on its face, to contradict a central principle of the civil rights movement, as laid out in 1954 by the (activist?) U.S. Supreme Court in Brown v. Board of Education.

I write all this now (from vacation, no less) because I think Obama’s gay rights approach is at the heart of the backlash over his inaugural invitation to Rick Warren, a popular California pastor who opposes any sanctioning of same-sex unions. Those who have objected most strongly have objected to Obama’s choice on fundamentally moral grounds. The selection, they argue, endorses something un-American. Would he invite a segregationist to speak? Would he invite an anti-semite? TIME’s John Cloud compares the Warren invitation to the one-time adoration of Richard Russell Jr., the segregationist Georgia senator who put a warm face on southern opposition to Civil Rights. Joe Solmonese, who heads the Human Rights Campaign, asks “[W]ould any inaugural committee say to Jewish Americans, ‘We’re opening with an anti-Semite but closing the program with a rabbi, so don’t worry’?”

The objections of Cloud, Solmonese and many others are based on the idea that Obama is behaving like a hypocrite. “Obama also said [Thursday] that he is a ‘fierce advocate for equality’ for gays, which is — given his opposition to equal marriage rights — simply a lie,” writes Cloud. But there is a consitency at the heart of Obama’s position. He campaigned on the promise that he would not demonize, reject or even contest those Americans who believe that gay couples should not have the same rights to marriage as straight couples. He promised not to make the big moral argument, but rather to score the incremental victories. Rather than hypocrisy, Obama is demonstrating the radical pragmatism that has marked his entire career. If there is now buyer’s remorse, this is its true source. If there is now shock, it is because Obama’s campaign papered over just how radically pragmantic its candidate planned to be.

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  • Andy from MA

    MS I hope you’re enjoying your vacation. We are…but seriously folks:
    .
    I understand the consternation, anger and frustration by many with Obama selecting Rick Warren to come to the inauguration. But after giving this some deep thought, there is not going ever be a constitutional amemdment or any federal law to allow marriage between two gay people; not in next 8 years. This will happen at the local level.
    .
    Just like Reagan and the Bushes were never going to constitutionally ban abortion. It wasn’t going to happen.
    .
    I thought Obama’s pragmatism was pretty transparent (not papered over) and while some think he is driving a knife between the shoulder blades of the gay community, I disagree.
    .
    As replusive as I find the absolutism and intolerance of the fundamentalists, Obama has to walk the talk of his campaign.
    .
    After all he didn’t give Joe Lieberman the heave-ho for what Lieberman did in the campaign, turncoat that Joe is. So as you contribute to the media feeding frenzy that is this story, my judgment on Obama will be after he starts governing, which is 31 days from now.
    .
    He’s got the next eight years to have gay relationships legally treated just like straight relationships. By then the country might just be ready for gay marriage, and so may Obama.

  • Suzie in MD

    Interesting discussion, MS. Quick note: check out your spelling of “accommodation” in the 5th paragraph (including the quote block as one paragraph). You may want to change that.
    .
    I understand his pragmatism on this issue, and I can’t say I’m infuriated by his choice of Warren (maybe because I’m too busy for fury this holiday season)…but it’s certainly not the choice I would have wished Obama to make. I think you nailed why it makes me uncomfortable when you noted, “Obama effectively cedes the clarity of a moral argument for gay rights equality.”
    .
    I’m really torn on this issue. I’ve followed the argument on other threads, and everyone makes legitimate points. I guess there are limits to my pragmatism, however. I would find it difficult to be in the same room with Warren because of what he said, never mind deliberately choosing him as a major player at my inauguration. But I guess that’s why I’m not a politician.

  • postxian

    MLK decried the

    moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; … Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

    As true today as then, as Michael makes clear above. But Michael is also correct that Obama never promised to be a prophet. He is a pragmatist.

    I fear that the pragmatist’s goodwill is easily exploited by the scoundrels that constitute the right wing of today’s politics. I believe that a handful of Republicans in the Senate will rule our country for the next four years because of the pragmatist tendencies of our all-too-polite Democratic party.

  • Andy from MA

    postxian – My take on the Dems in Congress is that they’re wimpy not pragmatic.

  • michaelscherer

    Suzie, thanks. fixed.

  • firehawkbb

    MS-
    This is probably the most insightful and analytical post I have seen you make here yet. I admit to normally loathing your work, so apparently the vacation has done you quite a bit of good.

    Yes, that was a backhanded compliment, but keep it up and the backhanded part will go away.

  • constantweader

    By his choice to begin his presidency with a blessing from a homophobic, anti-reproductive rights, anti-Jewish, -Muslim, etc., creationist, Obama is sending one message to the nation and the world and it is not a message that can be printed on a Time magazine blog.

    To those attending the inauguration, please join others in singing “We Shall Overcome” throughout the invocation. The subtleties of Obama’s “separate but equal” rationale notwithstanding, let the people sing out against bigotry, even when the bigot has the bully pulpit.

    The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com

  • destor23

    Nice take Michael. But I’m afraid that, much as I’d like to, I can’t just call Obama’s hypocrisy on this issue pragmatism and make it all feel better. He’s on the wrong side of this issue and anyone who doesn’t support full equal rights for all Americans without regard to sexual orientation is on the wrong side of history.

  • Andy from MA

    MS snce you were covering the campaign, a question. There was an interview with Obama where he said and I’m paraprhasing, that people saw him and they projected themselves and their values on him, or something like that.
    .
    Would you say that some of this reaction is because this self projection, and that is not who Obama is?

  • nibblybits

    postxian says:
    “I fear that the pragmatist’s goodwill is easily exploited by the scoundrels that constitute the right wing of today’s politics. I believe that a handful of Republicans in the Senate will rule our country for the next four years because of the pragmatist tendencies of our all-too-polite Democratic party.”
    I couldn’t disagree with you more. I believe the situation is the direct opposite of how you’re reading it.

  • formerlyjames

    It’s an interesting argument, and I am drawn especially to the “incremental” aspect as opposed to in your face confrontation which has marked the discussion thusfar. I will mull it over, but I just don’t like religious fundamentalism, never will, and will make silly juvenile faces and hand gestures at my teevee screen when his holiness Warren prays on inaugration day.

  • pintortwo

    Good post MS, thanks.
    .
    …radically pragmatic“.
    .
    Governing via pragmatism does seem radical these days. A marked improvement over radically dogmatic too, I’d suggest.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    @MS – Thanks
    This is one of the best things you’ve written in a while. You’ve made clearer than most commentators, the importance of having a clear logical and moral basis for whatever positions you choose to defend. While it may at times be desirable to accept ‘steady improvment’ as a worthwhile approach to a problem, it makes no sense to advocate “somewhat improved” as the desired end state of the action.
    .
    History has shown us that there are indeed ‘degrees’ of Slavery but it has also shown us that being ‘mostly’ free simply doesn’t cut it compared to the real thing.

  • pintortwo

    Bahh- the last 2 sentences shouldn’t be in italics…

  • michaelscherer

    Andy, Yes. I blogged on this effect here, by way of a great TNR story by David Samuels.
    .
    http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2008/10/08/barack_obama_as_ellisons_invis/
    .
    Samuels wrote:”Here, Obama seems to agree with [Ralph] Ellison about the effect of the racial baggage that people bring to his public performance as a politician. The black candidate is rendered invisible to his white audience, a fact that would appear to leave him with little choice but to use that blindness in a strategic way if he wishes to lead. It is one of the outstanding ironies of Obama’s story that his political rise has been fueled by a tactical grasp of the same racial logic that condemned Ellison’s invisible man to living in a basement by himself. The blank screen approach that Obama has embraced works well in a moment dominated by the collapse of Wall Street and the Iraq war, issues for which all possible solutions seem unpalatable; what voters want is to feel that things will change, without too much uncomfortable detail about what will actually happen. The fact that the candidate does not make the usual appeal to the authenticity of his personal story makes the usual attacks on him seem nonsensical, regardless of whether or not they are true, a fact that the Clintons lamented during the primary season and John McCain will find equally frustrating during the general election.”

  • Jim, Foolish Literalist

    write all this now (from vacation, no less) because I think Obama’s gay rights approach is at the heart of the backlash over his inaugural invitation to Rick Warren, a popular California pastor who opposes any sanctioning of same-sex unions.
    **
    I disagree, because I agree with Barack Obama (and if what I’ve read in these threads is correct, with Rick Warren) on civil unions as a reasonable compromise. Because I believe that “marriage” is just a religious word for “civil union”. In my family there are half a dozen or so marriages that the Pope and my grandmother do not acknowledge, and they are all heterosexual. I don’t care about the Pope’s opinion or Rick Warren’s.
    I disagree with Joeseph Lowery on choice, and have no problem with his being there (beyond my Constitutionalist stick-in-the-mud objections to having Christian shamans cast their spells on my govenrment). Warren is a demagogue, a liar, a smarmy, divisive latter-day Elmer Gantry who dumbs down every subject he discusses, religion or politics; a cheesy self-agrandizing buffoon who poisons our civil discourse just as much as Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson ever did, even if he does it with a grin and wears a Hawaiian shirt.
    He didn’t oppose gay marriage by proposing a reasonable alternative or compromise; he did so by spreading a lie about the First Amendment and comparing gay people to child rapists. We’re supposed to consider Warren reasonable because he supposedly cares about poor people and allegedly opposes torture. Where is his political activism in this regard?
    When did he send his flock home to write letters and make phone calls and vote against Republicans for voting for the MCA?
    Rick Warren is a rightwing extremist and con-man TV preacher. And he has conned Barack Obama.

  • Andy from MA

    MS — I thought I would bring this quote from your post and in ject it into our discussion. It was quite prescient I think.
    .
    MS wrote: “I know people who passionately support gay marriage, for instance, who still see Obama as a sort of savior, even though Obama opposes gay marriage. Along the same lines, others who are against American military intervention overseas are able to overlook Obama’s hawkish views of Afghanistan and Pakistan”
    .
    I think we’ll have more of these “moments” as Obama reveals himself to us or as the situations in the world unfold.

  • dunedweller

    MS: Here you have disected this issue in a more thoughtful and complex manner than most Americans, including myself, but you have come to the same conclusion. Without the thorough analysis, I concluded Obama’s intention based on my belief that he doesn’t do anything without thinking it through from every angle. Not to say he will not take risks and fail sometimes – he will. But even though I’m repulsed by what Rick Warren stands for, I know Obama’s choosing of him goes far beyond the symbology it represents on the surface, and I’m going to trust him on this one because the risk isn’t high.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Just to illustrate a point I made earlier, check out this freeper thread and the comments.
    .
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2150348/posts

  • pintortwo

    Paul D: I agree with you (2:59) but I’m not sure that it applies to the POTUS and the ability to govern effectively. Moral clarity is important, crucial even, when we discuss an issue like this. It is especially important when trying to enlighten someone or to persuade them to seeing things differently. I’m not so sure Obama feels that he must enlighten us but rather that he is charged with changing the law, incrementally if necessary, to reflect an existing trend in society. At the very least, he may feel these are two separate tasks.

  • garychapelhill

    how is INVITING a bigot to your inauguration pragmatic? I understand choosing your battles, but surrendering before the first volley is just plain stupid (or an indication that you just don’t give a damn). And please, this isn’t about pushing gay marriage. Gay marriage WAS legal in California. People like Warren helped to strip those rights from other Americans. His invitation to the inauguration is unthinkable for liberal Americans. What nobody wants to acknowledge is that Obama lied when he said he supported gay rights, plain and simple. I don’t know why you’re surprised, pols do it all the time. Oh, and he is a hypocrite too, no matter how you try to justify his actions. And unless you are a gay man, I’d like for y ou and other pundits to stick a fork in it. When I get to vote to annul your marriage, then I’ll listen to what you (and warren) have to say. Until then, you’re just blowing smoke.

  • Matt

    This is what governing from the center is all about, right?

    http://www.political-buzz.com/

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  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    lol garychapelhill
    .
    When did Obama say he said he supported GAY MARRIAGE?
    .
    You might want to look up his record on gay rights issues before you come off as even more ignorant than your post suggests
    .
    I will get you started in the right direction
    .
    http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Barack_Obama_Civil_Rights.htm#Gay_Rights

  • http://www.mercenaryscookbook.com memekiller

    I hope he’s a pragmatist. I fear he’s an idealist. Best would be a pragmatic idealist. Which is what he wants to be.

  • nibblybits

    gary says:
    “His invitation to the inauguration is unthinkable for liberal Americans.”
    Well, guess what? America is more than just liberal Americans.
    .
    “What nobody wants to acknowledge is that Obama lied when he said he supported gay rights, plain and simple.”
    Really? He’s not even in office yet. He’s appointing 2 openly gay candidates to policy-making positions, including a gay man as Secretary of the Navy, which is about a de facto nullification of DADT as I can imagine. So where is the lie?
    .
    He also has the most pro-gay rights platform of any president to date. Do you think he can get that level of ambitious change passed without the help of moderate, religious Americans? Do you think gay Americans alone can make that happen? Let me answer that for you: NO. We see the proof of that in California, Florida, Arizona and Arkansas.
    .
    “And unless you are a gay man, I’d like for you and other pundits to stick a fork in it. When I get to vote to annul your marriage, then I’ll listen to what you (and warren) have to say.”
    Really? You really want to take this adversarial approach? Because once again, the gay community alone is not going to make your agenda happen. If anything, you should want as many people as possible express their opinions so that you know what kind of work you have ahead of you. As Dan Savage said after the Prop 8 failure, more outreach is the answer.

  • dunedweller

    sg #19 (link): that’s a real think tank for nut jobs… What post did you refer to it in?

  • nibblybits

    You know, after 4 substantive threads I can’t believe there’s more to say. Just this: For 8 years we’ve dealt with a nutjob administration that put a litmus test on every political appointee, policy and action. Half the country was left out of the governing of this country, at the expense of competency and diversity of opinion. And look where it’s gotten us.
    .
    Now the left wants to put a litmus test on a one-off two-minute prayer. I can’t believe we are falling into the flip side of Karl Rove’s 50+1 worldview. Our guy, ideologically pure, the activists are crying, or nothing.
    .
    Frankly, I’m can’t believe that some on our side is being as short-sighted as those crazy right wingnuts we’ve been disgusted by these last years. People don’t learn.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    dunde
    .
    A post about Rick Warren giving the invocation for the inauguration. You have some folks saying Warren got his ministry degree from Sears, you have others saying he isn’t a real christian, you have others that saying he is a sell out. Over 100 comments of people down right hostile about him accepting the invitation. Like I said before he will probably catch more hell for doing the invocation than he will get new support.

  • chrisdr

    He’s not even in office yet.

    Fair enough.

    But the tenor of this argument should make it clear to anyone that it’s not 1992 anymore. “The most pro-gay rights platform” and “two openly gay candidates” (WHOOP DEE DO) was perhaps enough to make the queers swallow DADT and DOMA from Clinton, but all talk and no action won’t work for Obama. Especially now.

  • Andy from MA

    sgw: How are you my friend? You commented: “Like I said before he will probably catch more hell for doing the invocation than he will get new support”
    .
    Is that a bad thing? That would be a good thing.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Andy
    .
    That was my point.

  • Tom in The Swamp

    I have to agree with others who have said this is MS’s most cogent and well-considered posting yet. Vacation must be good for Mike’s mind.

    I read another interesting political analysis in the comments over at Balloon Juice and it is serves as a fine companion piece to Mikey’s “radical pragmatism” observation:

    If you followed the internal politics of evangelical and fundamentalist leaders, you’d see this for what it is — not an elevation of Warren, but a slap in the face of the old guard leaders like Dobson and LaHaye. They’ve been fighting to see who gets to be the spokesman for the movement, and lately it’s been a tie. Obama just broke it.

    And let’s be clear, there is a difference between those groups. Warren may not be progressive on gay rights, but he’s been out front on a number of issues of global justice—traveling from Davos to Damascus, and working hard to get rank-and-file evangelicals invested in “creation care” environmentalism and the fight against global HIV/AIDS.

    If he were put in charge of HHS or listened to on gay policies, I’d be pissed. But what Obama is doing here isn’t that. It’s a move that marginalizes the worst on the religious right, elevates a guy who’s more progressive than most religious leaders on a number of issues, and earns him some moderate cred at the outset.

    If Obama sells out on the progressive promise in actual policy, I’ll be in the streets protesting with everyone else. But if his “selling out” is having a fairly moderate, popular evangelical give the invocation at the inaugural—when large sections of this country still worry Obama’s a scary evil Mooooslim—then who gives a flying f#@k?

  • dunedweller

    nibbly, sg: It appears both sides of the invocation choice are chatting, talking, arguing and down right freaking out about it. Obama and Warren’s intention? Hmmmm…

  • shepherdwong

    “He campaigned on the promise that he would not demonize, reject or even contest those Americans who believe that gay couples should not have the same rights to marriage as straight couples.”

    I missed that particular campaign promise and I heard just about every speech Obama gave. Even if he made such a promise, giving such bigots a huge platform and megaphone is an unnecessary step farther than not “contesting” those Americans.

    Otherwise, a very lucid description of Obama’s politic pragmatism, relative to issues surrounding the social advancement of disadvantaged groups – also reflected his comments about Roe v, Wade. Vacation agrees with you.

  • nibblybits

    chrisdr: Whoop dee do? Whoop dee do!?! Let me tell you something: If you don’t appreciate having a seat at the table, then you are an ingrate. Because he doesn’t owe any single interest group a damn thing.
    .
    Frankly, I’m starting to get pissed at the level of entitlement people are feeling. The I want it now and I won’t wait attitude. I starting to get pissed that people want to blow political capital on this two-bit penny ante stuff when we’ve got health care, energy reform, and education on the docket.
    .
    You want real change? Real progress for the gay agenda? Then don’t blow your wad on something this stupid. Save it for the stuff that really counts. Like policy!

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Andy
    .
    Rather than have you look thorough my other posts on other threads let me explain what I meant. People are saying that Rick Warren giving the invocation is going to legitimize him. My counter to that was that rather than legitimize him it is going to alienate him from some of his base. And I referred to the fact that his books and his huge following and the fact that he hosted one of only 4 presidential debates had already legitimized him and that the invocation won’t do him any favors. Thats all

  • shepherdwong

    “You want real change? Real progress for the gay agenda? Then don’t blow your wad on something this stupid. Save it for the stuff that really counts. Like policy!”
    .
    No, that’s not right. Markos explains why you don’t “save it for the stuff that really counts (because this really counts)”
    .
    “I think the Warren choice is bullshit, but if we want a silver lining, it’s that the President of the United States has just said:

    ‘I am fierce advocate for equality for gay and—well, let me start by talking about my own views. I think it is no secret that I am a fierce advocate for equality for gay and lesbian Americans. It is something I have been consistent on and something I intend to continue to be consistent on during my presidency.’
    .
    “That’s not a bad silver lining. But let me add this to John — Obama wouldn’t be out there making perhaps the strongest statement in support of gays and lesbians by a president (though he’s still not technically one, I know) if it wasn’t for the sturm and drang this choice generated. It is precisely this backlash that has forced Obama to clearly affirm his commitment to equality. And it will be continued pressure that will force him to do the right thing on the issue.
    .
    “If we shut up, he’ll take the path of least resistance. And that path of least resistance is kowtowing to the conservative media, the clueless punditocracy, and bigots like Warren.”

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  • Andy from MA

    That’s what I thought you meant SGW. I read some of the comments o freepers from the wingnuts. It really is a cult. He needs to be cast out. I find the entertainment factor in Warren alienating his flock rather cool.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Andy
    .
    Its amazing how many times you hear dailykos thrown around as a hate site but you NEVER hear folks throw out freeper. Thats one area where bloggers who get on Tee Vee need to step up their game.

  • chrisdr

    Nibblybits-

    I’m entitled?

    Your posts drip with condescension.

    Why won’t those uppity minorities wait their turn?

    Why are they so ungrateful for what we deign to give them?

    Get over yourself.

  • Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Its amazing how many times you hear dailykos thrown around as a hate site but you NEVER hear folks throw out freeper. Thats one area where bloggers who get on Tee Vee need to step up their game.
    **
    As Atrios likes to say, acceptable opinion in Broderville runs from The New Republic on the Left to Free Republic on the Right. Ann Coulter is “provocative”; Pat Buchanan is “charming”, Rick Warren is a “moderate”.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    chrisdr
    .
    Just so I understand you, exactly WHAT are you having to wait your turn on?

  • nibblybits

    chrisdr: Oh, do we want to get into which of us is in the minority that is more oppressed? Because I have a good shot at winning.
    .

  • chrisdr

    Nibblybits-

    I’m not interested in playing your smug oppression game. How about we just conclude that you win hands-down, okay? And why do you assume I’m gay? Because it’s inconceivable for you that a heterosexual could care about “interest group” politics? Maybe because they are human rights, not special interests?

    sgwhiteinfla-

    I’m still waiting for your answer to my previous post–should Obama give prime airtime to opponents of affirmative action as part of his effort to broaden the national discourse?

  • http://presidentbarackobama.ca/?p=4790 presidentbarackobama.ca » Blog Archive » Obama’s Pragmatic Gay-Rights Agenda (Time Magazine)

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  • http://mfeldstein.com/personal/2008/12/19/the-rick-warren-inauguration-thing/ e-Mediate » Blog Archive » The Rick Warren Inauguration Thing

    [...] force in the recent passage of Proposition 8 in California. Time’s Michael Scherer makes a good case that part of the problem is people don’t understand Obama’s philosophy and strategy. He [...]

  • bethnva

    Okay, MS has attracted my ear and has me thinking. Rick Warren really, really gives me the creeps. Barack Obama really, really gives me the hopes–a much needed thing. Dealing with this is difficult, and this article has given me more to think about.

  • plukasiak

    Michael does a good job of describing Obama’s “accommodate the bigots” philosophy — but fails to point out the glaringly obvious.

    In 1954 the Supreme Court unanimously declared “separate but equal” unconstitutional in Brown v Board of Education. The fact that in 1961 a few states maintained anti-miscegenation laws was immaterial; the Supreme Court had made it clear that all forms of racial discrimination was unconstitutional. Bigots couldn’t stop progress by promoting anti-miscegenation laws at that point.

    But the hatemongers are using anti-gay marriage laws and constitutional amendments to advance the cause of bigotry and hate. “Gay marriage” was chosen by the bigots and haters to be the central issue — and AFAIK, there has not been a single statewide referendum to legalize gay marriage; they are all about institutionalizing hate in the law by prohibiting gay marriage.

    Obama is lying when he implies that its the gay community that is pushing gay marriage — instead, the gay community is Pushing Back against the bigots on the gay marriage issue. And Obama’s attempt to explain away his own homophobic opposition to gay marriage by making it seem like its the gay community that is choosing the wrong battles is just one more example of how unprincipled and dishonest he is.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    chrisdr
    .
    Of course he should AND he has unless you weren’t paying attention. Quick name a Republican that supports affirmative action.
    .
    Your faux outrage is not compelling.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    lol there it goes, plukasiak has now prounced Obama a homophobe.
    .
    Great job there plukasiak, whats next? He’s a terrorist?
    .
    You and the other people saying the kinda sh!t you just said are doing your cause a great disservice.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Well we have our first “jumping the shark” moment
    .
    plukasiak your overheated rehetoric isn’t helping your cause. As a matter of fact its doing the opposite of help. So don’t be surprised when people stop taking you seriously, SERIOUSLY.

  • textee

    Michael Scherer dutifully and falsely alleges: “Obama does not support giving gay couples the right to civil marriage.”

    Obama does support same sex so-called “marriage”. He supports lawless so-called “judges” imposing their own political preferences (i.e., support for same sex so-called “marriage” and other fabricated “rights”) on the country. In California, Obama supported the lawless lunatics on the California Supreme Court who invented a “constitutional right” to same-sex so-called “marriage”. Obama then opposed the successful effort by the people of California to bitch slap their lawless Supreme Court.

  • plukasiak

    Rich Warren has compared gays and lesbians to child molesters.

    If a republican was giving the invocation to someone who regularly compares African Americans to monkeys, sgw would be screaming bloody murder.

    The fact that she (and Obama) are so tolerate of homophobia tells you everything you need to know about both of them.

  • chrisdr

    sgwhiteinfla-

    I’m not talking about Obama working with Republicans in Congress, and you know it.

    I’m talking about Obama inviting a popular speaker well-known for his controversial anti-black views and giving him prominent airtime in his inauguration. Yes or no?

    If yes, why don’t you strongly encourage Obama to do this on your website, in the spirit of fostering dialogue?

  • stuartzechman

    Michael Scherer:
    _
    I really appreciated this interesting, thoughtful analysis from you.
    _
    While I agree with the appropriateness of the phrase “radical pragmatism”, I disagree with your conclusions.
    _
    I think that the Obama people made this move at this time in order to get you guys to stop talking about how he “is reluctant to answer questions” about the Blagojevich matter.
    _
    Obama has understood the practicality of deliberately angering liberal Democrats since, well, probably before he started in on Clinton about “straight talk on Social Security” in that horrible debate.
    _
    A very obvious way to take control of the news cycle in a way that immediately puts the Centrist media and political establishment in Obama’s corner is to very publicly piss off the people whose support one can pretty much take for granted. Inviting the gay-outrage equivalent of Don Imus to share the inaugural stage ends the week-long “Is the honeymoon over!!” bloodletting perfectly, if one’s pragmatism is truly “radical”.
    _
    I suspect that Barack Obama’s “radical pragmatism” isn’t just a euphemism for “Establishment Centrism”, but for something much less high-minded and more mundanely political than even you’ve outlined here: the purpose of Barack Obama is probably always Barack Obama.
    _
    Thanks for reading this on vacation, Michael Scherer.

  • jcapan

    “If there is now buyer’s remorse, this is its true source. If there is now shock, it is because Obama’s campaign papered over just how radically pragmantic its candidate planned to be.”
    `
    If there’s shock, it’s b/c most BO supporters believed what they wanted to believe–projecting onto the cypher what they secretly wanted of him. A suspension of disbelief, as Coleridge put it. I loved his campaign, I find him to be remarkably grounded and genuine (precious oddities in DC, my native swamp), but whether his executive “rule” will be nearly as inspirational is another matter.
    `
    And Stu:
    `
    “I think that the Obama people made this move at this time in order to get you guys to stop talking about how he ‘is reluctant to answer questions’ about the Blagojevich matter.”
    `
    Are you baked? Listen, I hate the choice too. But saying it’s all a Sister Souljah to distract from outrageous Illinois shenanigans? Are you suddenly Drudge’s personal bee-otch? Furthermore, did any of us hear any of the major Dem candies show some cajones on this issue, during the campaign or in the last two decades?
    `
    Again, cling to your little fantasy world where St. Hillary would have ushered in an era of true progressive reform, b/c god knows her family has demonstrated so much above & beyond “estab. centrism” during their 16 years in power. Put down the bong, the kool aid or at least the thin mental construct. They’re all pols, they’re all estab. centrists. But if we’re not willing to suspend our disbelief for shirt or skin, wouldn’t we disengage entirely?

  • michaelscherer

    Stuart. You raise a great question: When does “radical pragmatism” become “establishment centrism”? Is is courage and smarts, or cowardice and weakness? Just another third way? I will think. The answer may end up defining Obama’s legacy. –m.

  • cityguyusa

    They oughtta just eliminate marriage for everyone. Marriage was originally conceived as a method of preventing property from slipping out of family hands and had nothing to do with “love”. Why not just create legal agreements that can be created or redacted at any point in time to create whatever we need in an arrangement with another person? Why do we need the institution of marriage to offer legal benefits while encouraging making babies? As a global community we need to work towards population reduction. Less is more.

  • vwcat

    I am getting so sick of my party I am ready to become an independent. This identity politics is so destructive and to a degree selfish in it’s thinking it’s all about them and their agendas.
    Today some women’;s groups are whining that there isn’t enough women in Obama’s cabinet. another writer on this magazine is calling Obama a bigot. nice, huh. All I hear is whining and b****ing. Not far left enough, not enough women, not this and not that. Enough!
    I wish people would step away from the self obsessions and look at the big picture.
    Obama has said for 2 years he wants to bridge the divide and bring in those he disagrees with. For two years he has promised to listen to all people and be the president to everyone.
    We on the left railed about the rightwing and their exclusions and divisiveness. Their rejecting anyone who did not agree with them and refusing to even talk and try to open their minds and just listen to what others say and try to understand.
    We always thought we were so much better then that.
    So, what does my side do when the finally get the chance to prove it. The behave just as nasty and narrow minded and ugly as the rightwing. They are no better.
    They are hypocrites.

  • stuartzechman

    Michael Scherer:
    _
    Thank you very much for responding to the Commentariat, it is very much appreciated.

  • formerlyjames

    The Time poll today, which isn’t on the home page anymore was interesting. It asked whether Warren was a good choice for the inaugration. The vote was split, about 50/50. Caused me to wonder what the voters in each half were thinking, and what the poll actually meant. I suspect that there were both liberals and religious freaks on both sides of the vote. And the 50/50 split is just about what comes out on any hot button issue that divides the country between progressives and religion…woman’s choice, homosexuality, war, religion itself, evolution (maybe not that).

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    chrisdr
    .
    Because its MY website. I have a post up about Rick Warren expressing without ambiguity my view on it. I am not pressed about affirmative action right now. How about you make up your own blog and say everything YOU want to say on there. I love how you are just running away from logic to try to avoid defending your words. Its cool though, I am used to it. Those who say wild sh!t rarely defend it.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    By the way I am sure there are some on this site that will be overjoyed that John a gay rights advocate just called Barack Obama a bigot on MSNBC and actually argued the point. Bra phucking Vo.
    .
    I just keep hearing this Obama quote in my ears.
    .
    “Its like they take pride in being ignorant”
    .
    Amen

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    That should have been John Cloud of TIME magazine who is also a gay rights activist

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    I’m glad to see so many of you are taking up the mantle to fight against this mass histeria. Frankly, I’m amazed that so many gay activists are ignoring the strategic advantage that the Obama method provides fir bringing about gay rights in favor of trying to repeat the history of 1992 and try to blow up Obama’s presidency from the outset. Personally, I resent the comparisons with the civil rights movement that fails to acknowledge that they were also strategic and incremental. And if for nothing else if this debate highlights the danger of creating a mirror image of the last eight years then it is well worth it.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    hey SG– I think we’re back on the same side again.

  • pm1nyc

    Very interesting and thoughtful analysis.

    One of my favorite little ditties is:
    “He drew a circle that shut me out–
    Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout.
    But Love and I had the wit to win:
    We drew a circle that took him in!
    (“Outwitted” by Edwin Markham)

    I think you outline what is in Obama’s head very well. However, it is not just about incrementalism in my view, as that is only technocracy without a soul. For me, this is a two-front campaign – pragmatism is part of it, but there is also the moral front. And it is a “circle drawing” against ignorance on both fronts. Ignorance about how real people live their real lives.

    On the pragmatic front, the unanswered question for me is whether this invitation really is part of a “circle” that will draw people like Warren in, even at the expense of the pain caused to gay people in the meantime and on such a special day? The argument being made is that despite his dogmatism on issues like gay marriage, he will be more inclined to soften his stance on other issues like workplace discrimination because he is included on this platform. But that seems like an unsupported approach with no evidence to show it would work.

    Why would it not be just as likely to produce the opposite result, that because he is given such an important platform, he becomes even more entitled and locked into even harsher views? He has shown no sign of moderation in his stance on gay issues thus far – why would he start now?

    The moral front also has to be part of this conversation, I believe. On the moral position, the internal contradictions in the anti-gay forces’ arguments make them collapse under scrutiny (the “5,000 years” trope is a particularly idiotic one) and the only reason they are able to repeat these screeds ad nauseam is because they get cover from supine media organizations because of the shield of religion (cf. Ann Curry’s rollover interview with Warren today). And the emptiness of the moral position on this side is that they have absolutely no proposal for how gay people should live. Zero. Nothing. Instead, they claim that as Warren does in the Curry interview that they should live empty, celibate lives as wannabe heterosexuals. It isn’t a moral position as much as a complete abdication of respect for fellow humans. The question is how do you treat people who have been neglected by society and often their societies for so long with the common respect that we all deserve? How do you love your (gay) neighbor as yourself?

    I do value the idea that we should be more inclusive, and talk to people we don’t agree with. But so far this tactic seems to be at best hamfisted, at worst neglectful. We need far more thought and planning in a well-calibrated strategy to “outwit” those who seek to shut us out and truly draw them in.

  • stuartzechman

    Oregon JC:
    _
    Are you baked?
    _
    No.
    _
    iListen, I hate the choice too.
    _
    Of course you do. That’s probably the point.
    _
    But saying it’s all a Sister Souljah to distract from outrageous Illinois shenanigans? Are you suddenly Drudge’s personal bee-otch?
    No, but it looked for a few days there like Obama was going to be (again).
    _
    Furthermore, did any of us hear any of the major Dem candies show some cajones on this issue, during the campaign or in the last two decades?
    _
    No. That’s because we elected Centrists (not Liberals), and those nice technocratic folks actually don’t have too much of a problem with social conservatism as it applies to the morals of the working classes, except (sometimes) when it exposes the worst, e.g. racist or xenophobic tendencies of such traditionalism. They actually like that nonsense about “helping parents cope with racy movies and lyrics”, because they’re nanny-staters above all. The more we’re concerned with our “families” and “family values”, the more they get to run things from their Robert Moses perches. The last thing (apart from half of the party being on the wrong side of segregation) they want to deal with is provoking the ire of the tent-revivalists. Above all they want to keep populism quiet, so that they can implement their precious third way. In this way they claim the superior mantle of modernism and progress (for themselves and other elites), whilst “representing” the people they don’t trust with political power. The Clintons exemplified this, of course. Dishonesty is essentially inseparable from their ideology.
    _
    Again, cling to your little fantasy world where St. Hillary would have ushered in an era of true progressive reform, b/c god knows her family has demonstrated so much above & beyond “estab. centrism” during their 16 years in power.
    _
    How many times do I have to tell you, JC? I didn’t vote for Hillary precisely because I knew what I was in for, i.e. DOMA, DCMCA, NAFTA, Joe Klein, etc.
    _
    Put down the bong, the kool aid or at least the thin mental construct. They’re all pols, they’re all estab. centrists. But if we’re not willing to suspend our disbelief for shirt or skin, wouldn’t we disengage entirely?
    _
    Nice to see you using the appropriate “shirt/skin” metaphor, but no: I’m not willing to suspend disbelief. They are all Establishment Centrists. My job (and yours) is to rhetorically punish them for being so at the top of our lungs, so that the Overton Window shifts our way, instead of the snake-handlers’ way. The purpose of our engagement is to replace the Movement Conservatives with them, and then these pompous ‘fraidy-cats with people who courageously represent our enlightenment-era interests.
    _
    Nice speaking with you, Oregon JC.

  • formerlyjames

    pm 1, this was never about converting Warren. That can’t be done. It is about inviting him into the tent for tea, and compromising the even more extreme right wing pr campaign. Be friendly with the more mainstream crazies and split their union with the seriously need medication crazies. Divide and conquer.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Dee
    .
    We are always on the same side, sometimes we just disagree about what and how our side should be doing something. But that don’t change which side of the fence we are on ;)

  • lawchic22

    This was a well reasoned post. And I have to agree about one major point of contention in the post, which is that some of the outrage about Warren, and I do mean *some* is being directed at Obama because people projected their own views on him. For people to come out now and say that he is a bigot, homophobe, and a hypocrite because he doesn’t support gay marriage…where have you been these past two years? You just eliminated your credibility right there. Obama has never supported gay marriage, and that fact wasn’t hidden. He does however support gay civil rights —which means he doesn’t view gay marriage as a civil rights issue, he views it as a moral issue. While this might be upsetting to some, it was hardly a secret.

    That being said. I really don’t like Rick Warren… but at the same time, I have friends, close friends, that share his views–extreme views at that. Including beliefs that allowing the “redefinition” of marriage so to speak will lead for a push to legalize other forms of behavior that we deem unacceptable such as pedophilia, polygamy, and incest. I have had arguments with these people–and while they have slowly budged over time, one thing that I can say for sure is that their views probably wouldn’t have budged at all by constantly being surrounded with other like minded people. It just doesn’t work. So even though I don’t particularly think the invocation is that important, this is the lens that I view Warren.

    Also, I find it interesting that no one has spilled much ink on the flip side of this equation. Back when Obama was just rumored to be running for President, Warren invited him to speak at his AIDS forum despite the consternation of his supporters. From what I read, many, if not all, have been more than willing to blow this *symbolic* gesture off. I may not like dude, but I have to at least tip my hat here. He didn’t back down, and he gave Obama a forum to speak in, and encouraged his supporters to be respectful. So for the people on the left to now say that Warren is akin to the devil that deserves no kind of platform from Obama seems tone deaf. People have rightfully been offended by Warren’s comparisons about gay marriage. But how do you think pro-life people felt having Obama at Saddleback? Don’t you think that was equally offensive for them? They value the sacredness of life above all else, and here was this politician with extremely liberal views on abortion speaking at their church. So in my mind, although picking Warren was rubbing salt in the wound, there is precedent—and we are not going to move forward as a country if we continue to isolate into groups and expect progress.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Hey Scherer, are you going to have a comment about your clown ass co worker going on cable TV and calling Barack Obama a bigot?

  • formerlyjames

    lawchic, I agree with much of what you say, but, I am tired of hearing about the invitation to speak at an AIDS conference. The religious freaks are just coming out of the trees on that issue, and it is incomprehensible that these same people at one time believed that it was a strictly homosexual disease, so let em die and go to hell.
    .
    The pro-life (anti-women’s freedom and equality) folks at the forum made their views abundantly clear when Obama fumbled around trying to talk reason to the unreasonable fools. Contrast that with the spontaneous outburst and applause when McCain procalimed that life occurs at the moment of conception. Conception is a complicated medical issue, but these folks don’t know that and live in a fairy tale world in that regard, and that’s the way they like it.
    .
    I will shoot the finger at Reverend Warren and his groupies on the sly, but I will try to be patient with Obama with a childlike trust. Same as a religious fundamentalist.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    good point lawchic.

    The point some on the left are missing is that the inclusion of Warren is not about elevating or bestwowing an honor on pastor rick. It’s about including the people who belong to his church, share his views, or are just plain socially conservative. I think it’s about healing you know incuding the 48% who voted fir the other side.

  • Jim, Foolish Literalist

    sg:
    That’s pretty funny. Cloud wrote that puff piece on Coulter a few years back. But Obama’s a “bigot”?
    **

    http://www.cjr.org/the_water_cooler/john_cloud_responds_to_his_cri.php

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Jim Foolish Literalist
    .
    Seeing as how John Cloud helped in the decision to put Ann Coulter on the front page of TIME magazine I am officially calling him a BIGOT for giving her that prestige.
    .
    Honestly I am phucking pissed off right now behind what he said. I would LOVE for Scherer to weigh in

  • bethnva

    That guy on MSNBC calling Obama a bigot is Time’s John Cloud?? Wow. Wierd and Wow. I saw it on TV but didn’t get the guy’s name. I’m so sick of ad hominem attacks, name-calling. Didn’t like it when they called Edwards a faggot, don’t like it when they call Obama a bigot. Name-calling is the exact opposite of constructive dialog.

  • stuartzechman

    I’m wondering:
    _
    What is someone who doesn’t believe in identical rights for everyone, including the rights of gay and Lesbian Americans to marry and have families?
    _
    What do you call that person, the person who doesn’t think that others deserve the same rights that the majority enjoy?
    _
    What’s the name for that?

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    stuart
    .
    You can save that sh!t. Identical rights? What exactly would be different in a frikking word? You tell me right damm now what gay couples in civil unions would miss out on other than a goddamm word. You want to know REAL phucking bigotry? Its having to drink sh!tty water while a few feet over is a water fountain with clean water. Its going to a school where you have no books when a school with books is a block away. You can keep that phucking weak sauce about unequal rights until you can damm well quantify it. And you can for DAMM sure keep that bullsh!t about Obama being a bigot. This false equivalency sh!t has gone to far and as far as I am concerned if you are dumb enough to think he is a bigot then DON’T PHUCKING VOTE FOR HIM NEXT TIME.
    .
    Yep I said it!

  • lawchic22

    This discussion is definitely interesting?…since people are throwing around titles now, can we please define them? I looked up the term for bigot—it is: one who regards or treats members of a group with hatred and intolerance. From my point of view, the belief that marriage between a man and a woman is different than a marriage/union between a lesbian/homosexual couple does not equate to bigotry. But please feel me in, oh, and by the way, if you are trying to convince people to understand your point of view, calling them a bigot is not the way to do it. It will only shut down the conversation.

    At least we have come full circle—people were recklessly throwing around terms like racists and sexist during the primary and general, and now post-election people are recklessly throwing around the term bigot. Fun times for all.

  • maurice2u

    I recommend that anyone who hasn’t, read The Audacity of Hope. In particular, read the introduction and Chapter 1. If you have the opportunity, the audio book with Obama reading it with his own tone and emphasis is an even better choice.
    .
    The reason I say this is that he specifically notes how people tend to place their own narrative upon him, and he specifically criticizes both the right AND the left for perpetuating what he calls “absolutism” above all else. Obama is first and foremost a pragmatic. While he is a democrat, and based on many of our country’s current conditions that makes him easier identified with the left, he is far from the (however true or implied it is) narrative of the “liberal”.
    .
    Frankly, anyone who is now in “shock and awe” at what we have seen thus far from the President-Elect simply were hearing what they wanted to hear, and not paying attention. That book came out over two years ago and he laid out in no vague terms exactly how he viewed the world, our country, and our politics. Now that he has won, either try to be part of the solution, or get out of the way of others willing to try. It is far and away past the time of being complainers and/or armchair quarterbacks holding any benefit. By default, it simply makes you part of the problem. From hence forth, if you disagree with a decision, bring a logical solution to the table in a reasoned fashion at the very minimum if you desire any serious consideration. I suspect that will be the position of the next administration, and it should be our position as well.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Why is it so quiet? I tell you what I will keep checking back because I really want to know from one of you weak minded simpletons what rights you are missing in a civil union.

  • stuartzechman

    sgwhiteinfla:
    _
    LOL.
    _
    It seems like you got a bit riled up, and stopped making so much sense.
    _
    Since you addressed me, I’m assuming that you were answering my questions, but it was a little tough for me to make out what you were getting to in between stuff about equivalencies and drinking fountains.
    _
    I’m pretty sure that you didn’t even mean half of that stuff, because it would only take an intelligent person like yourself a minute or two of thought to come up with analogues to “schools and shitty water” like, oh I don’t know, “pink triangles and death camps”.
    _
    So if you wouldn’t mind calming down a bit, and contemplating the questions I originally asked, I’d love to know what you’d call somebody who believed that a certain minority of folks didn’t deserve the same rights as others because of that difference.
    _
    It goes to the point in Scherer’s piece that Obama made, which was:
    _
    …when my parents got married in 1961, it would have been illegal for them to be married in a number of states in the South. So obviously, this is something that I understand intimately, it’s something that I care about…
    _
    Frankly, I don’t understand what Obama is saying here. Apparently he means that the two issues –interracial marriage and gay/Lesbian marriage– are related in a way having to do with the struggle for civil rights and justice. Of course, he also says that a marriage is “between one man and one woman” (an obvious point of agreement between Obama and Warren), so that’s a little confusing.
    _
    So if one accepts Obama’s premises about marriage being a civil rights issue, what would somebody who wanted to deny the civil rights of others –in this case the right of marriage equality– be called? What’s the name for that desire to discriminate based on the sincere belief in the differences between types of people being of primary importance?

  • stuartzechman

    sgwhiteinfla:
    _
    LOL.
    _
    It seems like you got a bit riled up, and stopped making so much sense.
    _
    Since you addressed me, I’m assuming that you were answering my questions, but it was a little tough for me to make out what you were getting to in between stuff about equivalencies and drinking fountains.
    _
    I’m pretty sure that you didn’t even mean half of that stuff, because it would only take an intelligent person like yourself a minute or two of thought to come up with analogues to “schools and sh*tty water” like, oh I don’t know, “pink triangles and death camps”.
    _
    So if you wouldn’t mind calming down a bit, and contemplating the questions I originally asked, I’d love to know what you’d call somebody who believed that a certain minority of folks didn’t deserve the same rights as others because of that difference.
    _
    It goes to the point in Scherer’s piece that Obama made, which was:
    _
    …when my parents got married in 1961, it would have been illegal for them to be married in a number of states in the South. So obviously, this is something that I understand intimately, it’s something that I care about…
    _
    Frankly, I don’t understand what Obama is saying here. Apparently he means that the two issues –interracial marriage and gay/Lesbian marriage– are related in a way having to do with the struggle for civil rights and justice. Of course, he also says that a marriage is “between one man and one woman” (an obvious point of agreement between Obama and Warren), so that’s a little confusing.
    _
    So if one accepts Obama’s premises about marriage being a civil rights issue, what would somebody who wanted to deny the civil rights of others –in this case the right of marriage equality– be called? What’s the name for that desire to discriminate based on the sincere belief in the differences between types of people being of primary importance?

  • pm1nyc

    Hey lawchic,

    About your terminology, here’s my problem with rejecting the definition of “bigot– one who regards or treats members of a group with hatred and intolerance” for those who believe that marriage can only be heterosexual. What happens is that you do end up simply excluding a lot of people without acknowledging the need for any alternative. This does seem like exclusion/ intolerance, don’t you think?

    But let’s say you don’t want to be exclusionary, you want to engage, so you think about it further and you come up with a potential alternative, let’s say “twin-spirit unions”. Well, when you work through carefully and systematically what it means, how it would work in practice, at the very best you will come up with a system that is completely equal and fair but it’s separate. So now you have two different systems that are separate and equal, but they are so similar, the idea of separation cannot possibly hold logically. Therefore, if you work through all of this, and you still believe in maintaining an exclusionary system, you are by this same definition being intolerant and bigoted.

    I actually would be interested to hear if you do work through this process and come up with a different perspective.

    From my own point of view in working with others, I agree that calling someone a “bigot” doesn’t help convince someone, but instead creates a distance that makes things worse. Instead of bigotry, I find it more helpful to think of it as ignorance (and I don’t even have to use that word out loud!), and I begin to look at ways to engage someone around what they know and don’t know about something, and where those views are coming from, and what is possible to change and what is stuck.

    I actually find this whole process fascinating.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    stuart
    .
    Once again explain to me what right is missing from a civil union. When you can do that then you earn the right to call Obama a bigot. If not then you don’t know the meaning of the word. There are people who never get married in a church who are called common law man and wife and they get the same thing as gay people would in a civil union. To try to compare not being able to use the word marriage to someone being deprived of their rights is disengenous at best and just phucking stupid at its worst.

  • lawchic22

    pm1nyc: Thanks for your comment. But I disagree. I do think there is a legitimate argument to be made as why two different institutions — marriage/civil unions — can coexist and not perpetuate bigotry or intolerance. Marriages have always been defined as a mutual contract/agreement/union between a man and a woman. The cultural norms may have changed over the years, but the basis of the institution itself, heterosexuality, has remained the same. However, any way you want to slice it, homosexual couples are different. The basis of their relationship is different. As a result, I don’t think that just because you believe that homosexuals should be able to have “civil unions/partnerships” instead of “marriage” means that you are a bigot. It is just a recognition that the relationships are different, and the preference to continue the tradition of keeping the institution of marriage between heterosexual individuals.

    Now in the grand scheme of things, will it matter? I doubt it. I personally don’t see–or have yet to at least–how someone else defines their commitment to each other will hurt me. That being said, it just makes me extremely uncomfortable when people start to equate bigotry with a difference of a opinion on how to define marriage—the institution of marriage has been around for hundreds of years and by saying that people don’t have the right to believe that they should be able to keep the traditional definition of marriage is hard to swallow.

  • Jim, Foolish Literalist

    a Lutheran group (synod?) and a Jewish group (don’t know the term) recognize gay marriage. Seems to me they and the couples they’ve married could sue and say PropH8 infringes on their rights (not a lawyer, perhaps ovbious)

  • Mitchell Aboulafia

    Michael makes the following point at the end of his blog, “Obama is demonstrating the radical pragmatism that has marked his entire career. If there is now buyer’s remorse, this is its true source. If there is now shock, it is because Obama’s campaign papered over just how radically pragmantic (sic)its candidate planned to be.”

    What holds Obama’s position together is not pragamtism in the sense of political calculation, how to accomplish an end by using various means, but a philosophical sense of what pragmatism is about. Until his commitment to the latter is appreciated, the how and why of many of Obama’s actions will remain mysterious.

    See,

    “Obama’s Pragmatism (or Move over Culture Wars, Hello Political Philosophy)”
    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/mitchell_a/2008/12/obamas-pragmatism-or-move-over.php

    and

    UP@NIGHT
    http://msa4.wordpress.com/

  • uhhuhh

    Mr. Scherer makes a compelling argument, except for one crucial oversigt: He fails to adequately weave Rick Warren himself into the argument. Scherer correctly describes Obama’ pragmatism and his focus on securing civil union rights instead of “marriage.” But Scherer fails to explain how Warren fits into this matrix.

    As chronciled by the executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights, Rick Warren’s views on gay people lie at the very fringe. He denies that gay people have any intrinsic orientation. Rather, he views them as having chosen to be gay. He is a major player in the snake oil “ex gay” ministry that tells gay people that they can pray away their sexual orientation. Warren uses exceedingly uncharitble language to describe lesbians and gay men, including repeatedly describing their relationships as morally equivalent to pedophilia. And, most relevant to Mr. Scherer’s argument, Warren denies that gay couples should receive ANY form of legal recognition of their relationships or rights as couples. He is not a civil union advocate; he opposes everything.

    So in reaching out to Warren, Obama is not reaching out to a fellow moderate or pragmatist. He is not undertaking any dialogue with a reasonable dissente who might accept civil unions or some non-marriae alterative for gay couples. Rather, Obama the pragmatist is reaching out and validating a harsh, ineducable bigot with extremist prejudices.

    Warren’s views are utterly incompatible with even Obama’s pragmatic positions on gay rights.

  • uhhuhh

    sgwhiteinfla, lawchic22, and others need to learn more about Rick Warren’s views before being too aggressive in their argumentation. The assumption here seems to be that Warren supports civil unions but just doesn’t support same-sex marriage. That is ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT. Warren supports NO FORM OF LEGAL RIGHTS FOR GAY COUPLES. For more, see Pos #39.

  • stuartzechman

    posted by sgwhiteinfla Friday, December 19, 2008 at 11:33 pm:

    stuart
    .
    Once again explain to me what right is missing from a civil union. When you can do that then you earn the right to call Obama a bigot.

    _
    sgwhiteinfla:
    _
    I suppose it’s not going to do me any good to explain to you that my goal isn’t to “call Obama a bigot”, nor to ask you to recall that I haven’t as yet referred to him as such, but trying to get to the same issue of what that “missing right” means, right?
    _
    If not then you don’t know the meaning of the word.
    _
    This is true.
    _
    There are people who never get married in a church who are called common law man and wife and they get the same thing as gay people would in a civil union.
    _
    Actually, this is called common-law marriage, and (at least in the state where I reside), couples do not “get the same thing”:
    _

    from http://www.nydivorceonline.com/nypages/Alimony/commonlawmarriage.asp
    _
    New York does not allow the creation of a “common law” marriage, a relationship in which a couple lives together but have not participated in a lawful ceremony. Unlike some other states, in New York a couple cannot acquire marital rights and responsibilities by living together for a particular period of time. You do not need legal action to end such a relationship, if it was created in New York.
    _
    As long as a couple lives together as husband and wife, the question of validity of their marriage is unlikely to arise. However, for purposes of inheritance or the benefits of pension plans or social security, a valid marriage is required.

    _
    So you see, you’re not quite correct in your assertions as a matter of law. I’m not of the opinion, though, that “separate but equal” relationships are even possible without violating the equal protection clause of the US Constitution. Many courts, especially those in CA and MA, have agreed with this interpretation of their states’ constitutions’ equal protection clauses.
    _
    To try to compare not being able to use the word marriage to someone being deprived of their rights is disengenous at best and just phucking stupid at its worst.
    _
    That’s an incredible statement, sgwhiteinfla. “just stupid”?
    _
    Try this thought experiment, and tell us all how stupid it is to compare the inability to be legally married with the loss of rights:
    _
    Imagine that the result of the US Supreme Court’s decision in Loving v Virginia was to mandate that interracial couples continue to be denied the right to marry, but that states could remedy any discrimination by creating equivalent-benefit Civil Unions, into which any racially heterogeneous couple would be free to enter.
    _
    Did you get that?
    _
    In this imaginary result, a Korean-American man and a European-American woman are not free to marry one another, but can take advantage of a separate-but-equal legal partnership contract if they so desire.
    _
    Is that result equality sgwhiteinfla? Is it justice? Is it right?
    _
    I invite you to read the real decision in that case, the decision in which it was made quite apparent that states could not impose arbitrary distinctions between citizens’ fundamental rights without undermining the principles of equality:
    _

    from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia
    _
    The court ruled that Virginia’s anti-miscegenation statute violated both the Due Process Clause and the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. In its decision, the court wrote:
    _

    “ Marriage is one of the “basic civil rights of man,” fundamental to our very existence and survival…. To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State’s citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.

    _
    If marriage truly is “is one of the “basic civil rights of man”, and “the Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination”, and you, sgwhiteinfla, actually believe as I do (and Barack Obama does) that discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is just as invidious as “invidious racial discrimination”, then I would suggest to you that righteous anger at “not being able to use the word marriage” is never “just phucking stupid”, but the only just conclusion to draw for people who prioritize such justice over their own religious traditions.
    _
    Barack Obama was a professor of constitutional law at U of C.
    _
    Barack Obama obviously understands the relationship between what made the Loving v Virginia the right and just decision that it was –even though it redefined “traditional marriage” as it was enumerated in many states’ statutes– and the injustice of legal prohibition of gay/Lesbian marriage (I will repeat):
    _
    …when my parents got married in 1961, it would have been illegal for them to be married in a number of states in the South. So obviously, this is something that I understand intimately, it’s something that I care about…
    _
    Why then, does Barack Obama state unequivocally that he opposes such marriages on the basis that he believes “marriage is between one man and one woman” –along with his hand-picked inaugural prayer-leader Rick Warren?
    _
    But really, my original question was simpler than that:
    _
    If a person believes in the principles of the Loving decision, i.e. that marriage is a fundamental human right not to be violated by the state in the interest of perpetuating popular discriminatory traditions, then what does it mean when that same person still denies that this right belongs to another group of fellow Americans because of their sincere beliefs? What is that kind of thinking? Is there a name for it?

  • EDS

    Obama’s choice is shameful. As a lesbian, I worked hard to get Obama elected, donated money, made phones calls, etc….the passage of Prop Hate was hard enough for those of us here in California, but for Obama to invite a man who openly equates gay/lesbian relationships to pedophilia and incest (among other things) to open the curtain to his Presidency is a huge slap in the face. It was a calculation, we got the gays, so let’s reach out….you know what, I’m all for building bridges, but don’t do it on our backs.

    He will have a great deal of work to do to regain support in our community. Yeah, he’s better than Bush but my “Hope” sticker has been stripped from my car. Perhaps I should replace it with one that says “Help.”

  • pm1nyc

    lawchic, so you didn’t engage at all with me or my argument, despite asking for answers in your original post, and after I made an attempt to connect with your concerns. Instead, you just repeated some old canards you heard somewhere that are easily disputed. I’m disappointed but not too surprised – it’s typical and, unfortunately, ignorant.

    As you would know if you did any of your own homework, marriage has evolved and changed tremendously over the past thousands of years. Polygyny and polyandry have been some of the fundamental forms since ancient times through today (and legal in the USA until 108 years ago), including fraternal polygyny, where a woman marries a group of brothers, that still exists today in Tibet. Twofer there – incest and homosexuality together – how about that? Divorce was present in ancient times, but was prohibited in all Christian countries for 1,600 years, and only became generally acceptable in this country in the last 150 years. And many more variations across different societies over the years – a very complex system. So it is plain false to repeat the trope that it has been “the same for 5,000 years” – worse, it is idiotic.

    And ironically the rationale supporting the idea of gay marriage as being similar to “regular” marriage is exactly because of all the changes in marriage itself. It is no longer a requirement that a marriage produce children; because divorce is allowed, couples commit adultery and marry in life after child-bearing age. It is a state regulation that enables Britney Spears to get married on a whim for 48 hours in Vegas.

    If you go through any of the anti-gay arguments carefully, they just fall apart under the light of day. This is a relationship between two loving adult human beings we are talking about here. All you are left with is an assertion of being superior/ different/ exclusionary with the only cover being a cloak of religious prejudice to protect these false assertions. And religious prejudice should not be the means of blocking rights guaranteed by the state and bestowed by the state. In the end, all you have is your opinion, one that may be shared by others but doesn’t have any substance other than an inchoate appeal to a “tradition” that never was.

    That is why I don’t like calling it bigotry, but it sure is ignorant.

  • vicmakky

    This whole issue just seems impossible to me. If the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, wouldn’t any christian pastor be opposed to gay marriage? Isn’t the gay rights cause inherently at odds with Christianity?
    .
    I’m not opposed to equal rights for gays but it seems to me that with the majority of Americans claiming to be Christian(and with Christianity labeling homosexuality a sin), civil unions are a more attainable first step toward equality.
    .
    I find it funny that this is the second “Reverend” that is causing backlash for Obama.

  • stuartzechman

    Isn’t the gay rights cause inherently at odds with Christianity?
    _
    …with the majority of Americans claiming to be Christian(and with Christianity labeling homosexuality a sin), civil unions are a more attainable first step toward equality.
    _
    Interesting idea!
    _
    The bible also says that slavery is way cool, by the way:
    _

    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

    _
    Awesome.
    _
    How about the New Testament, though?
    _

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

    _
    That’s all?
    _

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

    _
    So it seems that to the extent that Christianity is fundamentally at odds with gay marriage, it is also similarly opposed to the prohibition of slavery.
    _
    I am a Christian.
    _
    What is attainable and what is Christian are two different things entirely. Also, Christianity isn’t fundamentalism. A majority of Americans are not members of Rick Warren’s Taliban.
    _
    I guess that I’m just trying to say that it might be more complex than that equation.

  • jasap

    The consternation from the left-wing that has greeted President-elect Obama’s choice of Rick Warren, exemplified in most of the posts here, stems from at least two faulty premises.

    1. A Liberal sense of entitlement, a feeling that the President-elect belongs to them, having been elected on a liberal platform. Three things are wrong with this thinking.

    a) It ignores the major premise of Obama’s run for presidency which stated that there is not a liberal or a conservative America but one America. This implies that to get beyond the divisive issues that have hitherto bogged down the political process, both sides have an equal say at the political arena. This immediately justifies the choice of Warren, whose opinion, no matter how offensive, must be respected if the concept of a progressive, one America would have a life beyond empty rhetoric.

    b) It ignores the fact that there would not be a President Obama, without conservative and independent vote. Thus, conservative are as much entitled a say in the political arena as the liberals.

    c) It forgets that tolerance cuts both ways. These outcries flow from as much bigotry as that being leveled against Warren and even Obama himself. Indeed, many of these posts could fit snugly in an Anne Coulter book without anyone being the wiser.

    2. A misunderstanding of the function or role of prayer in public arena.
    It seems to me that the legitimate premise for an outcry would be to question the place of prayer in such a public sphere upon the ground of the separation of the Church and State. If this function is deemed unproblematic, then the consternations and outcries are based on gross misunderstanding of what prayer is as it relates to “church.” First, to invite the church to say a prayer at all means a recognition of her voice in the public arena. Such recognition grants her an authority that she otherwise would not possess. This authority incidentally is the bane of the Gay Rights Movement, to wit: by insisting on recognition by the church, Gays inadvertently submit to the authority of the church. To demand this recognition is a battle that cannot be won, based on the reality that the church is not a social club whose moral and ethical codes can simply be amended like the rules and regulations of a social club. The church’s moral and ethical codes are based on the belief that they are God-breathed, hence those that speak on her behalf, like Warren do so from this conviction.
    Second, to demand that gay-marriage -sympathetic -pastors are the qualified persons to function at the inauguration flows from the forementioned misunderstanding. In reality such pastors and such “churches” occupy the fringes of the Church. The Classical church does not believe in gay relationship, not to mentioned gay marriage. Thus, the safe argument would be to insist on the exclusion of the church from a public arena where, by necessity, the rights of all participants must be respected, including gay relationships. If the church is however invited, it must follow then that those who represent her classical views should be the ones given a voice at the inauguration. This means that by giving a platform to a “pastor” (to say the benediction at the inauguration) who holds an aberrated views of the church’s doctrine, is in actuality making a mockery of the process.

    This is our argument:
    Since the public arena is a place where all rights must be respected, the church has no business there. If the church is invited however, then she must be allowed to speak her “classical” voice. Thus, outcries and consternation should be the other way round.

  • pm1nyc

    Right on, Stuart. The whole issue seems impossible you say, Vicmakky. Yes of course, any pastor has to do what is ordained in the Bible. His hands are tied.

    Well you know what is impossible – a man who has 3/5 of your value in our Constitution being elected President. A man who should be your property, according to the Bible and Christian clergy. Really, it’s a grievous sin for Warren to attend this celebration.

    “Slavery was established by decree of Almighty God…it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation…it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts.” – Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.

    Isn’t this “black President” cause at odds with Christianity?

  • pm1nyc

    jasap, thanks for an elaborate laying-out of an unwarranted argument.

    [One tiny counterpoint: gay/ equal rights advocates don't want to go anywhere near the "authority" of a church - we would be very happy if the church got out of the realm of the state where it is trespassing.]

  • southmost

    To you all who believe that we’re fighting over words when marriage and civil unions are the same: If they’re the same, then why call them different things? Why use different words unless, at some point, you will want to discriminate between them? Marriage is not principally about lowering taxes, or employment benefits, or even about natural reproduction (does the woman with a hysterectomy have her marriage annulled?), but about two people joining their lives together.

    So here’s a real situation that strikes at the heart of what it means to be married. If you can point out *any* concrete civil union law that addresses it, I will drop my objections.

    Two people of different nationalities meet, fall in love, and decide to build a life together. Naturally they would want to both live in the same country. If they were heterosexual, the non-US person would be eligible for permanent residency. Alas, they are not.

    Civil unions to the rescue? No? Pity.

    This column has seen some one-upmanship about the hardships of discrimination. Here’s one to add to the list: the gnawing fear that, some day, any day, a letter will come, the phone will ring, or (God forbid!) there will be a knock on the door, and the State will step in and tear your family apart. And you live with the knowledge that you don’t have, you never had, any legal recourse to prevent it.

    Show me a civil union law that deals with this. Or else stop arguing that civil unions solve everything.

  • pm1nyc

    Yes southmost, the harshness of immigration discrimination is one of the worst features of the present situation. I have been so lucky to get a green card myself in the lottery, having gone through the agonizing process of visa after visa. And I agree that civil unions don’t help a bit in this country because of federal law.

    The one thing I will say is that other countries have done such a better job of this already – England as just one example brought in partner immigration laws even before civil partnerships were legalized there. I wouldn’t care what a new federal law here was called so long as it supported an equivalent process for heterosexual and gay couples here.

  • pm1nyc

    Ah the Onion, prescient as usual:

    > Obama Modifies ‘Yes We Can’ Message To Exclude Area Loser
    ‘Yes We Can, Except Nate Walsh,’ Obama Says

    http://www.theonion.com/content/news/obama_modifies_yes_we_can_message

    We are all Nate Walshes now

  • Art Pepper

    Of course opposition to gay marriage is a form of bigotry. (And why the scare quotes around “marriage”, MS?)
    -
    And of course many Dems oppose marriage equality on purely hypocritical grounds (sorry, tactical political) and not because of bigotry. Hence Biden during the debates: “I totally oppose all discrimination against gays, except for the discrimination that I do support.”
    -
    With Obama, I’m not sure if it’s bigotry or hypocrisy, but he’s just as wrong on this issue as he is on FISA. And with FISA, the only excuse for it is that the other side is even worse.
    -
    And Rick Warren can kiss my ass.

  • Art Pepper

    And the comparison to anti-miscenegation laws is apt. If the incrementalists had had their way, we’d still be debating Jim Crow.
    -
    Personally I don’t care whether Rick Warren is at the inauguration. And I never thought an Obama administration (or any administration) would be a friend to the gay community. But to pretend it is when it isn’t is silly.
    -
    “…this is something that I understand intimately, it’s something that I care about” is obviously doublespeak.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    uhhhh
    .
    I am not arguing in favor of Rick Warren and in fact I have argued AGAINST him but I am not going to sit here and let sanctimonious azzholes who have never known true discrimnations in their whole phucking lies refer to Obama as a bigot
    .
    Stuart
    .
    I won’t fight your strawmen because you are too much of a COWARD to even stand by your words. The quote you put up clearly shows that OTHER STATES recognize common law marriage and I clearly did not say it was applicable to all states.
    .
    But just to nip all this sh!t in the bud, the miscegenation laws were about restricting the actual rights for interracial marriage. At the time civil unions were not offered up as a solution. In my opinion if they were they would have been acceptable. Dumb azz white folks always think they can tell black people how we would feel about certain situations but mostly you just don’t have a clue. The civil rights movement wasn’t about labels, it was about actual rights. We weren’t actually getting seperate but equal, we were getting separate but inferior and that had not the first damm thing to do with what it was called.
    .
    Its funny how many gay rights activists are so against organized religion but so caught up on a largely religious term. Using a word to define your relationship is not a civil right. Being able to get their partner’s benefits if if the other one dies, thats a civil right. Being able to get on family insurance together, thats a civil right. Being able to visit each other and make decisions for each other in a hospital, thats a civil right. Being able to file joint income taxes, thats a civil right. Being able to open joint accounts, thats a civil right. But using a frikking word? Thats what you call over reaching. But you know what, keep it up. Keep on saying that not being able to use a word is the equivalent of the civil rights movement. Keep on saying that not being able to use a word is the equivalent of the womens suffrage movement. Keep on calling a Preasident Elect who has an aggressive agenda to grant you equal rights a bigot. And at the end of the day when you see your support eroded, look in the mirror for the reason why.
    .
    Im done with this bullsh!t

  • Art Pepper

    sg, tell that to the folks in Oregon who had their marriages revoked retroactively.

  • http://smoothlikeremy.blogspot.com/ sgwhiteinfla

    Art Pepper
    .
    I don’t know if you noticed but you aren’t even arguing the same thing. Obama opposed Prop 8 and he opposes taking rights away from those who have already received them. If you can show that I am wrong feel free to try. Secondly your diatribe against Obama being for gay rights based on the very very limited issue of a word is laughable and I AM laughing at you right now. The fact that he has pledged to repeal DADT. The fact that he wants to strengthen hate crimes laws and anti hiring discrimnation laws in regards to LGBT people. The fact that his record on gay rights is over 10 years long makes what you said a joke. And if you actually believe your rhetoric which has no basis in fact then it makes you a joke too. How about next time you just vote for the Republican and see what not having a friend REALLY looks like.

  • stuartzechman

    posted by stuartzechman
    _
    Saturday, December 20, 2008 at 1:33 am
    _
    Try this thought experiment, and tell us all how stupid it is to compare the inability to be legally married with the loss of rights:
    _
    Imagine that the result of the US Supreme Court’s decision in Loving v Virginia was to mandate that interracial couples continue to be denied the right to marry, but that states could remedy any discrimination by creating equivalent-benefit Civil Unions, into which any racially heterogeneous couple would be free to enter.
    _
    In this imaginary result, a Korean-American man and a European-American woman are not free to marry one another, but can take advantage of a separate-but-equal legal partnership contract if they so desire.
    _
    Is that result equality sgwhiteinfla? Is it justice? Is it right?

    # sgwhiteinfla Says:
    _
    Saturday, December 20, 2008 at 9:20 am
    _
    …the miscegenation laws were about restricting the actual rights for interracial marriage. At the time civil unions were not offered up as a solution. In my opinion if they were they would have been acceptable.
    _
    Thanks so much for engaging in that thought experiment, and answering that question honestly, sgwhiteinfla.
    _
    You and I will agree to disagree on this, and, quite frankly, I find your answer incredible. I also feel quite confident that your personal view does not speak to a majority of AA’s answers to this question if it were put to that community in a nationwide survey. I could be wrong, though. I am also pretty confident that a majority of all racial and ethnic groups in the US would have a different answer, if the hypothetical question were put to them today, in 2009.
    _
    My final thought to you is that you try harder to explain your arguments without resorting to racial epithets (“Dumb azz white folks always think“) and silly name-calling attacks (“you are too much of a COWARD“), neither of which is terribly productive nor persuasive, and (when put together) have the effect of making you appear sympathetic to the kind of generalizations of which bigotry is an extreme example.

  • jasap

    I would advise circumspection for Gays in their outright claim that the biblical position on homosexuality is the same as slavery. In many forums, I come across a pastiche of biblical verses quickly culled to show that the bible supports slavery, preluding an argument that warns against a literal interpretation of the bible, or else questions the rationale for claiming civil rights for slaves (when the bible says slavery is alright) while denying the same for Gays. “Selected passages” and “outdated” laws on the other hand are phrases that Gays use to dismiss biblical objection.
    The passages that Gay defenders cull as a support for the first argument amount to what they themselves claim in the second argument, “selected passages,” which only succeed in showing that most who quote these passages have little grasp of the fundamental position of the bible on slavery. Two quick points:
    First, the bible does not justify or support slavery. While there are slavery laws in the bible, they are part of the civil laws Moses gave the Israelites as a supporting sequence to the Decalogue, serving to regulate the treatment of slaves. That God never intended slavery is very clear right from the beginning of the nationhood of Israel: “there should be no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you (Deut. 15: 4 NIV). However in recognition of the broken human nature, and in anticipation of the eventual reality, Moses (speaking for God) continued: “There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land” (Deut. 15: 11 NIV). Slavery in the OT is rooted in poverty, where less fortunate Jews sold themselves into slavery to fellow Jews for the sake of body and soul. The bible is very clear on how these slaves where to be treated and very categorical about their freedom after six years. Foreign slaves, the result of war, were to be treated very humanely and were to be freed as well. Indeed, the status of slaves in the OT was that of domestic servants and can never be analogous to the North American slavery that most tend to allude to in their discussion.
    As to the Pauline letters in the NT that mention slavery, to construe the keyword, “obey” to mean support for slavery is a serious fallacious error, since in no way is that injunction synonymous to a command to enslave or a premise of justification for a “state” of slavery as it is an instruction concerning the domestic and civil conduct of members of a new sect that claimed transformation from the vices that enslave the human spirit and soul to a society already steeped in a caste system, the same way MLK jr. emphasized civil obedience while opposed to civil laws of inequality.
    Second, biblical condemnation of homosexuality in both Testaments is so compelling that the only viable premise of argument for Gays is an appeal to the spirit on inclusion, hence, the warning against literalism. There are two faulty premises when Gays try to build their argument based on the bible as the cover article of Newsweek magazine did recently. 1) A disregard or a misunderstanding of the teaching of the bible on slavery, thus equating it to the African-American experience. This, to me, never fails to sound insulting or come off as trivializing a horrific part of American history, to which all interest points would be best served to handle carefully rather than throwing it into every new fray at hand. 2) Appealing to archaism in terms of the biblical position of homosexuality for lack of substantive counter-argument, a shaky ground for three reasons. a) Appealing to faith, thus: we are “children of faith too” while dismissing the basis of that faith (the bible) as irrelevant raises a lot of questions. b) Biblical laws are foundational to the sociological facets of the modern society and so cannot be simply dismissed. c) History is against homosexual practice no matter to what civilized society one appeals, including biblical. It is very difficult to find a counter-argument for “God created them male and female and commanded them to be fruitful and multiply.” This is a compelling argument not only against homosexuality but also against other forms of sexual unions about which the bible is very explicit.
    Thus, it seems to me that it is best that arguments for Gay rights should be based on scientific grounds solely, for if these tendencies are natural, what right then does the modern society have in denying gays their civil liberties?

  • textee

    Michael Scherer dutifully and falsely alleges: “Obama does not support giving gay couples the right to civil marriage.”

    -

    Obama does support same sex so-called “marriage”. He wants lawless so-called “judges” to violate the written laws of this country and impose their own political preference for same sex so-called “marriage” on the public. Obama supported the lawlessness of the California Supreme Court when they invented/fabricated a non-existent so-called “right” to same sex so-called “marriage”. Obama then opposed the successful effort of the people of California to b!tch slap their lawless Supreme Court. Thus, Obama does support same sex so-called “marriage”. However, given the fact that Obama is an effeminate coward, he doesn’t have the guts to say he supports same sex so-called “marriage”, but he will nominate lawless lunatics to the federal jucidiciary who will do that work for him.

  • lawchic22

    pm1nyc: since it is obvious that you didn’t read my post, or did, but just want me to tell you what you want to hear, there is no use responding to your post in any substantive way.

    I see both sides of this issue. I have empathy for people on both sides on this issue. We disagree about each other’s perspective. If it makes you feel better to call an anonymous person on the internet “ignorant” and attempt to insult them because they disagree with you, so be it. Unlike you, I can disagree without being disagreeable–thanks Obama.

  • pm1nyc

    lawchic, I’m fine with you not agreeing or being as disagreeable as you want to be. It is the Internet, after all. But in saying that you see both sides of the issue and have empathy and then choosing to dismiss my response out of hand is not very friendly. In fact, you come across as being disingenuous here.

    My argument was that I had made an effort in good faith to respond to your question about why opposition to gay marriage can be called bigotry. I did this by going through a process of exploring two scenarios – one where you exclude a gay couple from any legal rights, and the other where you decide to offer a form of union that is different from hetero marriage.

    I concluded by saying that if you work through both of these options logically, neither option holds up. The only factor that ultimately covers a choice not to support full equality is prejudice. I asked you for another take on this process, or to show how my logical flow doesn’t make sense, and you decided not to engage.

    Now as I said, I prefer not calling people bigots because it shuts people down and keeps us apart – however I do think that prejudice is the only real explanation here, and you have done nothing in your actions and responses to suggest that you are not influenced by that. But we all are in some ways – remember the Avenue Q song, “Everyone is a little bit racist.”

    For me, it helps to think about ignorance instead of prejudice because I think it’s a more helpful and positive term here. It means that someone who isn’t as exposed, as aware, as educated, someone who can’t really imagine what it is like to be gay in this society, and someone who shuts down thought rather than working things through, can actually learn over time about something they don’t feel comfortable with – and slowly change. Ignorance can be overcome through engagement and education, which is why I choose to respond to you still here.

  • stuartzechman

    jasap:
    _
    You make quite a few unsupported (and ludicrous) assertions:
    _
    the bible does not justify or support slavery
    _
    That God never intended slavery is very clear right from the beginning of the nationhood of Israel
    _
    the status of slaves in the OT was that of domestic servants and can never be analogous to the North American slavery
    _
    to construe the keyword, “obey” to mean support for slavery is a serious fallacious error, since in no way is that injunction synonymous to a command to enslave or a premise of justification for a “state” of slavery
    _
    the same way MLK jr. emphasized civil obedience while opposed to civil laws of inequality
    _
    biblical condemnation of homosexuality in both Testaments is so compelling
    _
    “History is against homosexual practice no matter to what civilized society one appeals”
    _
    a compelling argument not only against homosexuality but also against other forms of sexual unions about which the bible is very explicit.
    _
    , in a verbose, fatuous style obviously intended to provide the rhetorical appearance of rigorous support, laden with equally silly and prolix conclusions, so time prevents me from addressing them all in proper detail.
    _
    I’ll try briefly, however:
    _
    “the bible does not justify or support slavery”
    _
    It does. The passages are not “culled”, they are representative. Biblical statute intending to regulate slavery in no way construes opposition to its practice, even if you would like to believe that laws regulating slave abuse somehow add up to its moral opposition. Repeatedly referencing these passages intended to regulate and mitigate slavery’s obvious (and horrible) tendency to foster unchecked abuse does not constitute an argument against biblical justification. It might be so if you could find a pattern of biblical law specifically prohibiting slavery on moral grounds, but you can’t.
    _
    That God never intended slavery is very clear right from the beginning of the nationhood of Israel
    _
    Quoting passages about “the poor among you”, noting that slavery is an economic foundation, noting that indentured servitude was a primary cause of acquiring the legal status of “slave”, noting that Moses had complex thoughts about poverty, and asserting the bible’s clarity of slave treatment –these do not constitute in any way support for the clarity of God’s intentions, much less your crystalline knowledge of them. It’s certainly no demonstration of lack of biblical support for slavery whatsoever. It’s essentially a set of non sequiturs asserted with certainty.
    _
    the status of slaves in the OT was that of domestic servants and can never be analogous to the North American slavery
    _
    Really? It can “never be analogous”? An institution of human property can never be really similar to other forms of human property? The fact that these institutions are so similar as to be similarly called slavery doesn’t seem indicate an analogous nature to you? How about the slave status being passed from generations to next generations? Again, assertions about when historical instances of slavery can be analogous do not make for either an argument that the bible somehow morally prohibits slavery nor an argument about what constitutes slavery. That’s because assertions are never arguments, of course.
    _
    “As to the Pauline letters in the NT that mention slavery, to construe the keyword, “obey” to mean support for slavery is a serious fallacious error, since in no way is that injunction synonymous to a command to enslave or a premise of justification for a “state” of slavery as it is an instruction concerning the domestic and civil conduct of members of a new sect that claimed transformation from the vices that enslave the human spirit and soul to a society already steeped in a caste system, the same way MLK jr. emphasized civil obedience while opposed to civil laws of inequality.”
    _
    That’s quite an incredible assertion there.
    _
    How do you know precisely that the injunction to obey is not “a premise of justification for a “state” of slavery”, since the obvious interpretation of its existence would be an acceptance and promotion of the existing social order, including slavery?
    _
    Paul’s concern in these letters (especially in his letter to the Romans) is to communicate that while Jewish law, e.g. circumcision, etc. is incapable of justifying humanity, and only goodness as exemplified in faith in Christ is truly redeeming, he in no way advocates that the law of his time is to be flouted simply because it is the law (and not therefore the provider of grace). This is why Paul goes out of his way to make sure that Christ’s discovery and revelation of the primacy of principles, i.e. the (literal) spirit of the law over literal biblical statute does not immediately follow with anarchy. It’s a complex task, and Paul does his best.
    _
    Obviously Paul’s lesson falls short when it comes to you, since you go ahead and ignore his key finding to proclaim:
    _
    Biblical laws are foundational to the sociological facets of the modern society and so cannot be simply dismissed.
    _
    “the sociological facets of the modern society”?
    _
    Alright, ignoring for a moment your humorous rhetorical stylings, Paul himself “simply dismisses” these laws in the same manner:
    _

    Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
    _ Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
    _ Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

    _
    Get it, jasap? Adherence to OT law does not provide salvation in an of itself, because it’s the spirit (the incarnation of Christ’s perfect goodness) of the law that is worth knowing, not the letter of the law as it was historically written.
    _
    Paul makes it even more clear in 7 (Freedom from The Law):

    Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
    _ Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

    _
    Paul is telling us that Christ’s message is to try to somehow (sacraments come to mind) get that spirit of the law into us, so that we can be free of the letter’s literal interpretation. It’s a huge advance forward for humanity, on par with Plato’s idealism.
    _
    At the same time, Paul doesn’t want his church at Rome to go hog-wild with their newly discovered freedom, so he tells them:

    Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
    _ Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
    _ Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
    _ Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
    _ Rom 13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
    _ Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
    _ Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

    _
    Paul is in no way telling his Roman brethren to behave like MLK, he’s saying the exact opposite. His point has nothing to do with yours.
    _
    biblical condemnation of homosexuality in both Testaments is so compelling
    _
    Really? How compelling is it? I haven’t found it to be nearly as compelling as the prohibitions against shellfish. Seriously, it’s not compelling. Even in the letter to his Romans, Paul isn’t making a case against gay people, he’s making a case against the abandonment of mental restraint. His problem is with wild profligacy, not homosexuality. Real condemnation of homosexuality just isn’t terribly compelling, actually. Asserting that it is so does not make it so.
    _
    “History is against homosexual practice no matter to what civilized society one appeals”
    _
    What? “History” itself hates homos? What a nonsensical statement! Really, if somehow history itself was the Hegelian force that you (and Marx) claim it to be, don’t you think that “homosexual practice”, as you misleadingly refer to gay people’s lives, would be, I don’t know, non-existent by now? This is a particularly ridiculous assertion burdened with patently foolish premises.
    _
    a compelling argument not only against homosexuality but also against other forms of sexual unions about which the bible is very explicit.
    _
    Again, I’d suggest that you’re missing the point of Christianity, which is to truly attempt to divine the good by accepting the grace of Christ, instead of performing the pitiful intellectual abandonment necessary to transform scripture into a morally absent forensics exercise with respect to everyday human behavior.
    _
    So there it is, jasap, your rhetoric in this instance: unsupported assertions, sad misunderstandings, non sequiturs and pompous filler masquerading as profundity.

  • Art Pepper

    sg: I know the GOP is 1000x worse than the Dems on this issue. No disagreement there. But that doesn’t make a wrong into a right.

  • jasap

    stuartzechman,

    What I find amusing is how quickly people can degenerate to the level of calling contrary opinions as “stupid” and “non sequiturs and pompous filler masquerading as profundity” as you’ve done here. Quite a reel of quotations you have here, and I suppose they are meant to cow me into shivering at the presence of your superior biblical knowledge? They didn’t. In fact, I laughed out loud at your suggestion that I miss the point of Christianity, good for you to say. Let me just point out that though you give the appearance of a point by point rejoinder, what you’ve done here is to heap up verses upon verses of scripture that do not really touch upon the issue. If you want to debate law against grace you are welcome to go ahead, but perhaps it is wise to scale back on such adjectives as “stupid” and so on.

  • formerlyjames

    I thought this blog was over, and did I ever waste today on other blogs thinking so.
    .
    I missed the spectacular fireworks of jasap’s most eloquent and verbose defense of primitive culture. For my part, I will cut to the chase of my belief in the bible. Your bible is a fairy tale, jasap. I don’t care what it says about slavery, about homosexuality, about bambi or micky mouse. It is a fraud. And so are you. Not supid. Just severly misdirected. The intellect that you quite obviously possess (a gift from god?), is squandered. You better pray on that, because I doubt that even the imaginary god would go along with your defense of the good book. What a waste.

  • formerlyjames

    Damn I wish I had been here earlier. Good night all.

  • jasap

    formerlyjames

    My point is not to convince anyone about God or the bible. You are entitled to your on views about life as I am mine. I’m not homophobic, I just find arguments for homosexuallty on biblical premise unconvincing. Am I a fraud? Probably, as you, yourself might well be. Is my life a waste? How can you know?
    I’m happy for this dialogue though.

  • stuartzechman

    jasap:
    _
    I suppose they are meant to cow me into shivering at the presence of your superior biblical knowledge
    _
    Of course not. That’s assuming some pretty base motivations on my part.
    _
    what you’ve done here is to heap up verses upon verses of scripture that do not really touch upon the issue
    _
    No, I’ve “heaped” just a few of the more obvious verses required to briefly, yet fully refute some pretty wildly inaccurate and unsupported assertions you made with total rhetorical certainty.
    _
    perhaps it is wise to scale back on such adjectives as “stupid” and so on.
    _
    Reading your response I thought to myself “maybe this person really hasn’t read a word of what I’ve written”, and then I got to this last bit from you, and realized that this was probably true, since you’ve apparently failed to notice that I haven’t used the word “stupid” once in any part of my arguments.

  • jasap

    stuartzechman

    Welcome back!

    I did read your response, which I assume was meant to educate me on the finer points of the law versus grace, and I understood why you started out by establishing that my argument was silly and non sequiturs. Like I said, if you want to elaborate on your law and grace explanation so I can get the point you are welcome to go ahead. It is lost upon me though (perhaps being so silly and thus slow) how your ponderous quotations “fully refute” the “pretty wildly inaccurate and unsupported assertions” you accuse me of making.

    Thanks for the exercise though, seriously.

  • masurix

    Obama can’t shove change down our throats, and I get the feeling that the gay community thought he would. Or that he really should – at least where they’re concerned. It just doesn’t work like that. Plenty of people believe the way that Rick Warren does, and they get a say in this, too. Right or wrong, good or bad, that’s the way it is. Obama is a representative of the people, all of them. Real change – change that people can embrace, accept, and support – takes time. It’s a process. Obama knows this.

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