In the Arena

Why People Hate Columnists

Charles Krauthammer is working on the basis of, like, zero information when he says:

Obama has no intention of being a foreign policy president. Unlike, say, Nixon or Reagan, he does not have aspirations abroad. He simply wants quiet on his eastern and western fronts so that he can proceed with what he really cares about — his domestic agenda.

Actually, my sense was that, prior to the financial crisis, Obama seemed far more interested–personally interested–in foreign policy, in rectifying the massive overseas failures of the Bush Administration, than he was in things like health insurance. Krauthammer–one of those one-idea-at-a-time ideologues–does some mad extrapolation here: because Obama will be a domestic activist, he won’t be a foreign policy activist. Bolshoi. After all, Obama has already said that he’ll give a major speech in an Islamic capital in his first 100 days–a speech that may, or may not, be as important as Reagan’s “Evil Empire” or Bush’s “Axis of Evil” speeches in setting a new diplomatic tone. Obama has plans to use his leverage–and global post-Bushian relief–to change the dynamic in NATO, South Asia and Iran, among other venues. He will surely delegate some of the details of these responsibilities–but unlike Bush, who simply said to his vice president, “You do it,” I suspect that Obama will not only stay abreast of developments, but also relish the nuance of developments. Why? Because he’s intellectually curious. Because he enjoys learning new things and chewing over difficult problems. Because he already is doing so. 

Also, Krauthammer betrays his ignorance of the domestic policy challenges with this tidbit:

Obama claimed, “If we want to overcome our economic challenges, we must also finally address our health care challenge” — the perfect non sequitur that gives carte blanche to whatever health-care reform and spending the Obama team dreams up. 

But, of course, this is a “non sequitur” only in the minds of hermetically sealed conservative ideologues. Ask General Motors about its ability to compete, given the burdens of the current health insurance system. Ask any economist who knows even the slightest bit about this subject about the “opportunity costs” of locking potential entrepreneurs into uncreative corporate jobs because they don’t want to lose their health insurance. We don’t know that this will happen, but it’s entirely possible that a national health insurance system will have the corollary effect of unleashing a gush of entrepreneurialism. At least, that’s some people’s opinion…and I tend to hope it’s true. But then, I’m not nearly as certain of anything in this world as Krauthammer is about, well, everything.

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  • pierogielunaire

    Whoa! Nailed it, Joe!

  • wvng
  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    You headline is intensely misleading. Hating Charles Krauthammer bears little to no relationship it to hating Columnists. It is more along the lines of eating, breathing and having to take a dump in the morning.

  • vwcat

    The problem with these neocons like Kraut is they think foreign policy is the only thing that matters. Nevermind that the economy is melting and there are a host of domestic issues to deal with, they think the president is to only deal in foreign policy, especially their warped view of foreign policy.

  • Andy from MA

    Dr. Krauthammer wouldn’t be the first (or last) columnist who writes and opines with, like zero, information. That’s written into to the columnist’s job description and their contract. Is there an oath they also have to swear to?

  • http://nicewhitelady.blogspot.com/ joyomama

    Creepy! At 7:30 this morning I was reading Krauthammer’s column and traumatizing my emotionally needy beagle with angry outbursts along these very lines. Then 90 minutes later I discover that Joe Klein may have planted a bug in my living room (or perhaps the beagle is wearing a wire?) and borrowed my caffeine-fueled tirade for his morning post.
    .
    On second thought, it’s been pretty obvious for years that Krauthammer is “factose intolerant” (in the words of the immortal Stephen Colbert). Nice analysis, Joe.

  • kathy

    “factose intolerant” I like that.
    .
    I’m trying to figure out how I’m going to manage to be cheerful during the Obama years. I guess I just have to smile knowing he’s at the help and then drop off the news grid. No chance otherwise.

  • bitterpill8

    One of the sad things is that anyone with three notes becomes a columnist. Like others the Kraut is a re-cycler. That he gets paid for it is one of the wonders of our capitalist system. Only in America….

  • palininatowel

    Charles should speak with the folks at GM, Ford and Chrysler about health care costs which have been increasing at 20% a year for years.
    .
    Meanwhile, Republicans are anxious to paint union line workers as greedy slobs, unwilling to take a pay cut to survive. In truth, the pay cut Senate Republicans used as “leverage” against line workers was a massive cut, not some trivial buck or two an hour.
    .
    Yeah, and all the “rich” union line workers are vacationing at their second and third homes (cough) while the poor executive saps at places like AIG (which lied about its balance sheet, apparently, on its way to a bailout) and the banks that are “too big to fail” are off on “reward” outings to spas and golf resorts on the taxpayer dime.
    .
    I always get a sick chuckle out of hearing Republican country clubbers ranting and raving about the UAW or teachers’ unions, as if these working stiffs are just making too damn much money.
    .
    Yeah, they’re all rich. Aren’t they?
    .
    So Senate Republicans decide to tank the world economy because they hate unions so much. That’s it in a nutshell, isn’t it?
    .
    Look, there is no doubt that the auto companies need to change their ways, and that goes for concessions from the UAW, as well. But let’s keep in mind who drives product development at GM, Ford and Chrysler: The execs who don’t have their eyes on long-term sustainability or consumer demand, but, rather, quarterly results based on selling the most profitable vehicles (SUVs, trucks) in order to maximize their bonuses.
    .
    These clowns were selling over-sized gas guzzlers into the teeth of $4/gallon gas.
    .
    Meanwhile, the folks with last decent-paying jobs in America for those without a college education are looking at food stamps and the public dole.
    .
    And the idiot Republicans in the Senate will deny that we’re going to pay for all this, one way or another.

  • beccabyrd

    There are many unfathomable things in the world, like guppies eating their young and the WaPo publishing Charles Krauthammer.

  • James, Los Angeles

    Well, palin. What concessions should be union members be making? Take a pay cut? Give up their pensions? Reduce the pensions of those already retired? Give up health coverage? (Because, management negotiates the health coverage.)

  • James, Los Angeles

    They make, like $28 an hour. Under $60,0000 per year. What is a fair wage for an auto worker, then? 5% cut? 10% cut? Why would they do that?

  • joyfulalternative

    Right-wingers are putting out the word that autoworkers make $72/hour, but that figure includes pensions and health care for all retired workers. Autoworkers’ pay is just $26/hour, which is nice but not exciting, and newer employees’ pay has been adjusted downward.

    I’m getting tired of correcting this right-wing meme popping up everywhere, and I invite others to do so.

  • James, Los Angeles

    Crossposted from below:
    .
    A source over at TPM says:

    I don’t think it’ll be hard to explain why Senate Republicans had the final say: that’s what the Constitution and Senate rules require. How else would we have passed anything?
    .
    I do think it’ll be hard for Senate Republicans to explain themselves.
    .
    They were invited, repeatedly, to participate in more than a week of negotiations with a Republican White House. They declined.
    .
    They were asked to provide an alternative bill. They refused.
    .
    Finally, one of their members – Senator Corker of Tennessee – participated in a day-long negotiation with Senate Democrats, the UAW, and bondholders. Everyone made major concessions. Democrats gave up efficiency and emissions standards. UAW accepted major benefit cuts and agreed to reduce workers’ wages. Bondholders signed off on a serious haircut. But when Senator Corker took the deal back to the Republican Conference, they argued for two hours and ultimately rejected it.
    .
    Why? Because they wanted the federal government to forcibly reduce the wages of American workers within the next 12 months.
    .
    Heard this morning that President Bush may still use TARP money to rescue the automakers. He reportedly doesn’t want to end up as the next Hoover.

    Talking Points Memo | Breaking News and Analysis

  • wvng
  • Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Krauthammer hasn’t had a logical, coherent thought since 2000, at least. But he’s not the one responsible for his column appearing in the increasingly pathetic Washington Post oped pages.
    Donnie Graham is a better argument for estate taxes than Paris Hilton.

  • palininatowel

    James, LA,
    .
    They can take a modest reduction, as they offered to, in the spirit of events. That’s all I am suggesting. I am not saying they should do anything but what they had offered in conference with the Senate.
    .
    Let’s face it, the gap between rich and poor greatly expanded for a number of reasons, but one reason certainly was the demise of pension plans in favor of 401Ks and mutual fund investments, as so many have now painfully discovered.
    .
    There was a reason for the development of the pension system and Social Security. Republicans have fought for years to kill both. They have mostly succeeded with pensions. To the detriment of most American workers.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Great post, Joe.
    -
    As others point out, tho, it’s not fair to columnists to judge them based on Krauthammer. The real mystery is, how come, given his dedication to inaccuracy and ignorance, he has lifetime tenure?
    -
    I wonder what he thinks of the UAW, and how he manages to avoid applying the same standards to himself, when it comes to high costs at distressed industries. And he, unlike UAW workers, is dead weight.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Also, as to this other discussion, the UAW agreed to just such a reduction last year. Now, maybe they need to agree to more– I don’t know much about the economics of the auto industry– but the idea that the union is rigid and inflexible just isn’t true.

  • beccabyrd

    Bob Corker is really trying to make a name for himself on the Bail-Out. Doesn’t he look like Mr. Burns on the Simpsons? Very appropriate.

    Just think, Corker’s face could be forever a symbol of the demise of the American auto industry and the death of the UAW, which is his real goal. What a legacy he seeks!

  • davemc321

    FWIW, this AP story gives some specifics on auto worker wages.
    .
    Hourly wages for UAW workers at GM factories are about equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour. worker wages. But the unionized factories have far higher benefit costs.
    .
    GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69, including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers.

    It appears that the myth of the $72@hr auto worker stems from the the corporate side, or at least GM. If the workers have to make concessions in wages and benefits, that we’d better see some steep cuts on as well on management’s pay.
    .
    Does anyone truly believe GM’s CEO Richard Wagoner really deserves $14.4 million for whatever the hell he does?

  • James, Los Angeles

    .
    About those pension and health care costs for retirees. It is my understanding that by law, companies have to put that money aside in real time for pensions. Are they tacking that cost on now despite the fact that it was money they put aside for pensions years and years ago? If so, that is even more dishonest than it seems.
    .
    Unfortunately, journos don’t seem to be able to grasp these issues in order to report on them clearly and accurately. Though, that AP piece at least had some facts in it. That’s far better than most reporting I’ve seen on this.
    .

  • palininatowel

    davemc321,
    .
    Thanks for the info.

    Yeah, it’s those damn retirees in their condos down in Florida! Greedy bastards! Spent their lives attaching car doors and screwing in headlights! Well, screw them!
    .
    Sincerely,
    .
    Bob Corker

  • ivb3016

    Are they tacking that cost on now despite the fact that it was money they put aside for pensions years and years ago?
    .
    I think the real time aspect is relatively new. IIRC, a major company failed some years ago and all the pensions were lost because they had not funded them except on paper. A law was passed to require funding in real time. I think the auto makers have some legacy pensions they must pay on that were not funded.

  • postxian

    the “opportunity costs” of locking potential entrepreneurs into uncreative corporate jobs because they don’t want to lose their health insurance

    Amen Joe. I have seen this situation 1,000 times in the engineering business. The only people I know who independently contract depend on their spouses’ corporate jobs for healthcare benefits.

    A national health care program would unleash a a flood entrepreneurism by way of Coasean efficiency through reducing the transaction costs of an individual health care plan.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    Best part of this morning was
    .
    A. Watching Geltfinger totally call out Bob Corker and expose that he said the rhetoric about high union wages was just partisan politics and totally threw him under the bus.
    .
    B Watching Nora O’Donnell keep busting Corker in the mouth with everything Geltfinger said and watching him FAIL. lol
    .
    When the youtube clip comes up I will be sure to pass it along

  • bitterpill8

    1. I see no info on executive pay cut proposals commensurate with what the workers are asked to give up.
    2. Seriously, the Senate filibuster rule means that for anything to get passed one needs 60 votes. Filibusters were reserved for very controversial issues and that made sense. Perhaps it is time to go for the simple majority. It will then be a process that will advantage the winning side; and in the end it may the only way.
    3. The idea of a minority always blocking a majority with procedural votes does not sound democratic. The argument is always: but when Democrats lose??? Well Republicans lose, too.

  • beccabyrd

    palin-

    We have our very own Ebenezer Scrooge this holiday season. Bob Corker sez of pensioners “If they be like to die, they had better do it and decrease the surplus population!”.

  • wvng

    sgw, please do.
    .
    postxian, a double amen to your comment. Perhaps something would happen similar to what our next Energy Secretary Steven Chu said happened in California when refrigerator design (regarding energy efficiency) was done by engineers instead of lobbyists. That quote is somewhere in the middle of this video:

  • wvng
  • wvng

    Here’s a thought. If Bush does dig into TARP for a auto company bridge loan, it is a “Bush Legacy” twofer. It would make him look a little less awful. And it would make the repug caucus look that much worse in comparison.

  • James, Los Angeles

    .
    Talking Points Memo | Breaking News and Analysis has magnificent coverage of the auto bailout situation this morning. They are *all over it.* With fact, informative analysis, great sources. The whole bit. Kudos to them.
    .

  • bobcn1

    davemc321 asked: ‘Does anyone truly believe GM’s CEO Richard Wagoner really deserves $14.4 million for whatever the hell he does?’
    .
    Isn’t it interesting that the GOPers insist on micro-managing blue collar wages, but have nothing to say about white collar and executive compensation. Class warfare maybe? Or just union-busting?
    .
    Since we’re insisting that UAW workers receive the same pay as the workers at Japanese owned plants, maybe we can insist on the same for Wagoner. The CEO of Toyota didn’t make $14 million last year. He had to make due with a mere $900 thousand.

  • bitterpill8

    wvng/James: I read the post at TPM. I feel that the threat to filibuster has now replaced an actual filibuster. For form’s sake cots are brought in to show determination: the determination to have the shortest possible show for the plebes. In practice the majority leader has to refine the art of the “cave in”. Thus for issues that are important 60 votes is now the real requirement. Which is why the Senate is so easy to gum up. Passing note: the judges did not get a pay raise Reid slipped into the mix. He’s tried to be deft!

    Very defensive Corker being grilled by Norah on MSNBC. Hilarious: he wriggled when questioned about helping foreign companies. Seems the whole South is covered with M Benz, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda… as Meachum put it the three losers have come together at last: Japan, German and the Old South.

  • sakshibhava

    Krauthammer is a psychiatrist. Imagine laying out your problems for him to help solve. Closed minded at best. Evil at worst. I wonder if he ever practiced.

  • pintortwo

    Go Joe- “hermetically sealed conservative ideologues” – love it. Remember when “conservative” used to mean advocating a lean, efficient government that could pay for what it spends?

  • newliberty

    Joe Klein is working on the basis of, like, zero information when he says this:

    Obama has plans to use his leverage–and global post-Bushian relief–to change the dynamic in NATO, South Asia and Iran, among other venues. He will surely delegate some of the details of these responsibilities–but unlike Bush, who simply said to his vice president, “You do it,” I suspect that Obama will not only stay abreast of developments, but also relish the nuance of developments. Why? Because he’s intellectually curious. Because he enjoys learning new things and chewing over difficult problems. Because he already is doing so.

    I’ll cross my fingers and wait for the day when GM decides to take away their health care options and give their employees the opportunity to enroll in limited, government subsidized health care.

  • sgwhiteinfla
  • newliberty

    Haha…I’m sorry…but “he enjoys learning new things and chewing over difficult problems” gives him the ability to change the dynamic in NATO? I guess Sarah Palin must have been really qualified then! Haha!

  • dunedweller

    Obama realizes the importance of repairing our reputation on the global stage, as well as keeping us safe, and I believe that’s why he chose such a strong and capable national security team. However, I do believe his focus is at home and I am THRILLED about that. I can’t tell you how many times in the last 8 years – ever since we invaded Iraq – that I have found myself wondering ‘where is our president?’ All I would hear and read about was money going to Iraq, progress in Iraq – new infrastructure, schools, etc. I know we destroyed what little was there so we were indebted to replace it, but geez. The US has taken a huge hit on so many fronts because the president and his administration put absolutely NO focus here. In a selfish way I hope Krauthhammer is right about Obama’s first priority being at home (is it selfish to want a president of the US rather than president of the world?)

  • wvng

    bitterpill, here’s is what Josh said about the filibuster:
    .
    What I do think makes sense is for the majority to actually require the minority to filibuster — as in talk and talk and talk. We’ve arrived at a point in which it’s become standard, even in the most contentious of cases, for the minority to be allowed merely to signal the intention to filibuster rather than doing the actual thing itself. Filibustering is a tool of obstruction. It’s a critical right of the minority in the senate. But it is, by definition, obstruction. So it makes sense to put the obstructionists to their task, make them do it publicly. I don’t know why the Democrats are not doing that in this case.

  • http://thelonggoodbye.wordpress.com/2008/12/12/innovation-is-the-ability-to-see-change-as-an-opportunity-not-a-threat/ Innovation is the ability to see change as an opportunity – not a threat « The Long Goodbye

    [...] week to fulfill his contractual obligations, nothing to get really pissed off  about, but still, Why People Hate Columnists Posted by Joe Klein Actually, my sense was that, prior to the financial crisis, Obama seemed far [...]

  • ivb3016

    And, remember when the Democrats last had a backbone and weren’t going to allow a vote on some of the Repub judges, the Repubs were screaming “nuclear option” from the rooftops. Wasn’t that when the Gang of 14, including St. John McCain, came riding to the rescue and saved the filibuster and got most of the winger judges approved?

  • James, Los Angeles

    # pintortwo Says:

    Go Joe- “hermetically sealed conservative ideologues” – love it. Remember when “conservative” used to mean advocating a lean, efficient government that could pay for what it spends?

    .
    Kinda like this, eh?
    republican.national.debt.jpg (JPEG Image, 785×628 pixels)
    .
    Conservative, uh huh.

  • shepherdwong

    “But then, I’m not nearly as certain of anything in this world as Krauthammer is about, well, everything.”

    There’s another option here that you have either overlooked or refuse to say: Krauthammer is lying (he’s a Republican). He knows that healthcare and the economic health of the country are intertwined but he also knows that if Democrat provide a reasonable guarantee to access to a decent national healthcare system, Republicans won’t be trusted with the government for a generation (Bill Kristol told him so).

    I submit that people hate columnists for lots of reasons. Some of them make up stuff and lie for partisan purposes and, meanwhile, some discuss these lies but pretend that they are not lies.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    I think the real time aspect is relatively new.
    .
    No.
    .
    Under ERISA regs (I’ve developed a pension calculation system for a Fortune 50 company), the company is required to certify that the pension is fully funded, annually, and the calculations supporting tha claim is supposed to be checked by federal regulators. there’s an article in today’s NYT about giving companies a pass this year.
    .
    These funds were widely abused, counted as assets, and valued using unrealistic rates of return on holdings. Not just the auto industry.
    .
    There is a pension insurance fund at the federal level, which provides about 40% coverage in practice, and is widely believed to represent a large unfunded liability as pension plans prove to be underfunded.

  • ivb3016

    Jayack, ERISA was passed in 1974. Guess I’m showing my age if I think that was relatively recent. ;)
    .
    Your point about the abuse was the problem in a number of industries.
    .
    Hasn’t that federal pension insurance fund been stretched close to the limit within the past couple of years?

  • wvng

    james. Facts have a well known liberal bias.
    .
    jay, Senator Stabenow makes your point about the pension insurance fund, and how taxpayers will be on the hook for a whole lot of money if the big 3 collapse, in this impassioned speech:
    http://tinyurl.com/6nwj2t

  • wvng
  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    The problem is that conservative columnists are almost universally operatives. They work for the republican party. Brooks is something of a counterexample, but the rest (That I can think of)simply carry water for Republicans. You might think Will an exception, but recall that he did debate prep for reagan using the briefing book stolen from Carter.
    .
    This isn’t true of most liberal and moderate columnists. Markos, yes. I think it’s wrong that both he and Rove have Newsweek columns.
    .
    All that’s going on here is advancing the narrative that democrats can’t do national security or foreign policy. Given the disastrous failure of this untrammeled republican administration, only an operative would be able to write this column.

  • wvng

    jay, I don’t consider Markos, or any other progressive blogger, to be an operative. What I see is a commitment to progressive principles, not to party or individuals. I have no doubt that “our” side will hold the new administration to its promises, and challenge them strongly when they fall short.
    .
    Speaking of operatives, I expect to see a full court press by the entire RW machine on this issue that Steve Benen brought up a few minutes ago:
    .
    Rove, of course, said on the "Today" show recently that Senate Republicans should go after Holder. Soon after, the GOP base started targeting Holder, and all of a sudden, conservative senators who hadn’t said a word about Holder felt compelled to launch a campaign against him.
    .
    In the broader context, let’s remember that Obama campaigned on a new style of pragmatic, non-ideological politics, but Republicans didn’t. As Grassley, Kyl, and Coburn demonstrated yesterday, they see an opportunity to tie Holder to Clinton-era controversies, which would then tie Obama to Clinton-era controversies, and cast a pall over Obama’s young presidency. That neither Holder nor Obama have done anything inappropriate is irrelevant.
    .
    Republican obstructionism was overwhelming — indeed, record-breaking — in the 110th Congress, and after a series of humiliating election losses a month ago, one might think the party would be less interested in destruction and more interested in governing. Think again. The Holder fight is about setting a combative, contentious tone for Obama’s presidency.

  • henqiguai

    As usual, I’m late to these discussions…

    re: #9 palininatowel Says:
    Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:57 am

    Meanwhile, the folks with last decent-paying jobs in America for those without a college education are looking at food stamps and the public dole.

    Um, palin, it’s not just union workers. Techno-types are also facing that reality, as are other “salaried” types. In between the sounds of crashing ice chunks and large pieces of trees, I could here NPR commenting on Bank of America laying off 30,00 or more; and here in New England, one of the largest employers of software-types is the financial industry — lots of blood in the water in that industry.

    re: #22 James, Los Angeles Says:
    Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:01 am

    About those pension and health care costs for retirees. It is my understanding that by law, companies have to put that money aside in real time for pensions.

    That’s the rule (don’t know if it’s a law or not). But with all the news bites about under-funded pensions around the country, if it’s a law, it’s not particularly enforced. For instance, it seems virtually every public service unions’ pension fund is under funded.

    Hmm. Seems jayackroyd (in #46, pg. 1) has pointed out ERISA makes pension funding a legal requirement.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Out here on the mean streets, we call it ‘talking our of your @ss’.
    .
    And now we can again compare the establishment corporate media w/ the Big 3. Only it’s worse, they were at least smart enough to stop making Pacers, Gremlins and Cordobas. The MSM kept laying off actual reporters to make room for the likes of Krauthammer and Kristol…it fully deserves the disaster bearing down on it as we speak.
    .
    You are certainly correct in taking down Krauthammer but he hasn’t done anything that your colleague Scherer hasn’t done on a daily basis right here. A little in house flame war might be good for the bottom line.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Should have read: ‘Talking out of your @ss’

  • shepherdwong

    “The problem is that conservative columnists are almost universally operatives.”
    .
    And I say that the problem is that everyone else in the business knows that and knows that they frequently lie to advance the Republican corporatist agenda and, apparently, by some sort of tacit industry agreement, gives lying to the public a polite (private) wink and nod – all’s fair in love and politics (and career advancement) don’t you know. To make matters worse, they then ascribe false characterizations and motives to further obscure the public lie.
    .
    This is the very act which has kept the public so woefully misinformed about who their political friends and enemies are and which has led directly to the sort of tragic public policies we see before us.

  • shepherdwong

    “…one might think the party would be less interested in destruction and more interested in governing.”
    .
    Why should they? They claim that “government is the problem”. Their very reason for being is to undermine public faith in government so that it is unable to tax and regulate. What possible motive could they have to govern effectively, even if they understood how?

  • wvng
  • incandenzah

    It’s nice to see so many comments here, and such a dearth of them on Scherer’s recent posts. The commenter boycott (begun by sgwhiteinfla?) of Scherer’s posts seems to be working. I’m not sure if Michael has caught on yet, but here’s hoping that other commenters will take note & not enable the hack in his hackitude anymore. Directly engaging him through comments definitely wasn’t working, so maybe when his comments numbers fade away, he’ll fade, too.
    Here’s hoping.

  • wvng
  • sgwhiteinfla

    gotta love getlfinger
    .

    .
    wvng I wrote a diary about Eugene Robinson’s column today and got flamed at kos because i cast aspersions on his journalistic intergrity. But I stand by the substance of my argument, his column today was some bullsh!t

  • ivb3016

    wvng, thanks for the Digby link. I was endlessly annoyed with Robinson during the primary. Heard him last night on one of the MSNBC shows saying basically the same thing as in the column. Wondered if he now has moved on to Clinton Rules after being such a blatant Obama booster in the primary.

    sgw, will go read your diary, but I’m sure I agree with you!

  • sgwhiteinfla

    Here it is
    .
    Just disregard the pizzing match in the comments.
    .
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/12/12/881/94516/50/672181

  • wvng

    Directly engaging him through comments definitely wasn’t working, so maybe when his comments numbers fade away, he’ll fade, too. I don’t want MS to fade. I want to see him change, and embrace journalism and blogging at a standard that is worth reading and engaging. I personally became tired of railing against his use of RW frames and spreading drudgian innuendo. He wasn’t changing, or even engaging the threads in a substantive way, so why bother engaging a provocateur.
    .
    What I most want to see is for all of the Swamplanders to give up use of the passive voice when describing the role of journalism in our society. For example, the entirety of the speculative brouhaha about Obama and Blago is an active, enthusiastic creation of the media.
    .
    Watching CNN yesterday practically salivating at the opportunity to ask Obama questions about Blago when he called a press conference to discuss a subject of real national import – health care – was disgusting. As a commenter at Balloon Juice said earlier today: The big question for me is how f***ed up does the country have to get before the Villagers drop the cocktail party act? Who cares if Obama talked to someone who talked to someone who talked to Blago when there’s 1 million new lucky duckies next month and the Dow’s at 3000?

  • wvng

    sgw, fine post.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    wvng
    .
    Thanks. I guess I ruined the effectiveness by calling Robinson out at first which really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. But I feel like you are what you do. If you write a bogus story then you are a bogus journalist. And from watching Robinson all the time on Morning Joe one thing I have noticed is that he would never stand up to Scarborough and correct him when he was smearing Obama. He was just skinning and grinning all the time and going along to get along. I HATE that sheeit. But alas I pizzed off the audience and went down in flames. lol One thing about blogging is you get instant feedback on your work thats for sure.

  • constantweader

    Joe, I don’t think it’s useful for people of your stature, wit and wisdom to comment on Charles Krauthammer columns because it leaves some with the impression that Krauthammer’s prejudices are worthy of comment. So I don’t know what he wrote, and I don’t know what you wrote was wrong with what he wrote. Whatever it was, you’re right and he’s wrong.

    The way to deal with Krauthammer is to pretend he isn’t there. Then maybe, after a while, he won’t be. (Except at Fox.)

    The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com — a Krauthammer-free site

  • ivb3016

    sgw, I just read it and as I suspected ahead of time, agreed. Your update was even better.
    .
    I think the reason you got so flamed was the same reason I stopped reading Kos during the primary. They are all fanatical Obama supporters. Therefore, they have that long history with him and all think Robinson is super great. I remember Bob Somerby pointing out some dreadful things Robinson said and just checked to see if the column made today’s Daily Howler, but alas not.

  • wvng

    Joe, I don’t think it’s useful for people of your stature, wit and wisdom to comment on Charles Krauthammer columns because it leaves some with the impression that Krauthammer’s prejudices are worthy of comment.
    .
    I disagree strongly. I want to see good journalists actively responding to lousy work and false frame, in real time, instead of the norm – which is politely “grinning all the time and going along to get along.” Call em out. Somebody says Big3 autoworkers make $73/hr – call bull$hit.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    ivb
    .
    Thanks. You know I know I can be an azzhole sometimes but the thing that pissed me off the most was that the majority of commentors didn’t even read the substance of the diary, they just saw me insulting “their guy” and started flaming me. And when I flamed them back not even one could defend the article. But hey I know what I am getting there. I just have a hard time not hitting back. I swear I am actually starting to believe the “koolaid drinkers” meme the wingnuts were pushing during the campaign. Its sad really.

  • shepherdwong

    “I remember Bob Somerby pointing out some dreadful things Robinson said and just checked to see if the column made today’s Daily Howler, but alas not.”
    .
    Somerby has a long memory of supposed “liberal” media types, catapulting right-wing talking points, especially against the Clintons and Gore. I think he believes, quite plausibly, that they are truly responsible for the Bush years and the mess we are in today.
    .
    Richard Wolffe is another supposed “liberal” (with whom I frequently agree) who has been completely whacked out on the “Obama has some splanin’ to do” media meme. Since I think the press personally likes Obama, unlike the Clintons and Al Gore, I’m trying to hard to parse out industry arrogance, the pack mentality and/or their basic shallowness to explain this mass delusion that Obama has some sort of responsibility to explain his relationship to Blago. It’s quite obvious from the transcripts that the “bleeping” Obama campaign refused to play ball with Blago (“bleep them”) and that’s the end of any meaningful story related to Obama. Joe Klein gets it, why don’t the rest of his “liberal” colleagues in the corporate press?

  • shepherdwong

    “I want to see good journalists actively responding to lousy work and false frame, in real time, instead of the norm – which is politely “grinning all the time and going along to get along.” Call em out. Somebody says Big3 autoworkers make $73/hr – call bull$hit.</i?
    .
    Not surprisingly, I totally agree. Further, they should call out the writer’s agenda and explain any and all dishonest statements. That’s their f*cking jobs and why they’re getting killed by the new media, which has taken up the job they’ve abdicated.

  • wvng

    shep, PaulD, has a relevant point up in MS’ newest post (where angels choose not to tread), said:
    .
    http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2008/12/12/sign-of-the-times/#comment-27600
    .
    Mr. Madoff is principal Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC of New York, which he founded in 1960.

    Hmmmmm…
    48 Years in the business. I bet he has a lot of influential friends. Many of them might still be in important positions. Stay tuned for 96 hours of incessant speculation as to who else might be caught up in the ‘web’ and who needs to account for the possibility that they had any contact with him.
    .
    No?
    .
    I didn’t think so.

    .
    How much incessant msm speculation has there been over the last 8 years about Bush’s connections to indicted & venal people, or Cheney’s? Seems to me the approach was generally “nothing to see here, move along.” “No way Cheney is getting enriched by his connections to Haliburton which is getting huge no-bid contracts for the Iraq war he started -how rude of you to imply otherwise.” What we are seeing now is the return of Clinton Rules.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    wvng
    .
    Hell we couldn’t even get the MSM to talk about the Carlyle Group and EVERYBODY knew about them.

  • sgwhiteinfla
  • exile500

    As much as I don’t like Krauthammer, Brooks was even worse today:

    Such is the local boom that your humble ambassador can drive from his residence, and in a few minutes he can count 10 McMansions under construction….Perhaps the New Deal paradigm everybody is applying doesn’t actually fit the circumstances…Why is it, some ask, that America is so slavishly following the same failed route earlier taken by the Japanese — from bank capitalization, to industrial bailouts to infrastructure spending?….The wisest Americans are throwing piles of money around, while looking nervously for signs of fiscal ruin

  • wvng

    This kind of framing is at the core of the problem, from the NYT’s home page:
    .
    U.A.W. at Center of Dispute Over Bailout By MICHELINE MAYNARD 1:03 PM ET
    .
    The sticking point in the Senate negotiations apparently was the union’s refusal to agree to certain concessions.

    .
    The article itself wasn’t bad, but a more honest frame for the home page would have been:
    .
    “Republican Dispute with U.A.W. led to Filibuster of Bailout. The sticking point in the Senate negotiations was the union’s refusal to agree to immediate wage concessions demanded by Republicans.”

  • ivb3016

    sgw — perfect!! I knew he had called him out quite a lot. I, of course, was pleased to read all that in the Howler during the primary because I thought Robinson was just over the top and after a couple of times with him on KO, I quit watching that.

  • wvng
  • wvng
  • sgwhiteinfla

    ivb
    .
    You saw that they did have something on Robinson’s piece today right?

  • textee

    Is Joe Klein still alleging that the “uniformed military” supports the thoroughly unqualified, terrorist fraternizing, community organizer? Is Klein still promoting the thoroughly discredited fraud pushed by his like-minded kooks that Eric Shinseki was “forced out” of the military?

  • sgwhiteinfla

    pointing and laughing
    .
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  • sgwhiteinfla
  • James, Los Angeles

    Here’s the best wrap-up yet of the auto-bailout fiasco by WH reporter extraordinaire Olivier Knox:
    .
    White House mulls urgent new steps on autos – Yahoo! News
    .
    It has some good quotes from the union side.

  • shepherdwong

    “shep, PaulD, has a relevant point up in MS’ newest post…”
    .
    Thanks, wvng, I’m sure it has nothing to do with the fact that Madoff’s buds aren’t Democratic politicians.
    .
    They really appear clueless at what jackasses they sound like harping on this obvious non-story and repeating the same stupid question – who talked with Blago (as if it mattered one whit, other than the dumbest guilt-by-association accusation of all time), ad nauseam. Maybe laughing hyenas.

  • ivb3016

    ivb
    .
    You saw that they did have something on Robinson’s piece today right?
    .
    Duh. I skipped too fast past the TFA part and missed that he began with the Robinson column! Thanks.

  • sgwhiteinfla
  • wvng

    sgw, priceless indeed. In case people are shy about clicking thru: Senator Vitter would “rather pay a prostitute than pay auto workers.”
    .
    So true, so true. :-)
    .
    Say, Vitter is in the senate. So are other repuglicans. Vitter frequented prostitutes, and wasn’t there something about adult diapers involved? And he was also closely associated with a lot of repuglicans. You remember how the msm obsessed about possible connections, given how much they love sex scandals? Days and days of endless coverage, right?

  • wvng

    John Dean has an Open Letter to President-Elect Obama
    .
    Well worth a read.

  • wvng
  • wvng
  • joekleinsucks

    Yet another poopy article from the worst columnist out there. Just go away Joe, go away.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    jay, I don’t consider Markos, or any other progressive blogger, to be an operative.
    .
    Markos has been very clear in this regard. MORE and better democrats. I doubt he’d be offended by the characterization. And in a world where Rove has a column, it does make sense that he have one. I’d prefer columnists who do not commission polls.

  • wvng

    Markos has been very clear in this regard. MORE and better democrats. I doubt he’d be offended by the characterization. I think he would. Markos is clearly partisan, so am I, so are you. I think we have all been made more partisan by the excesses of the last 8 years – I know I have. But Markos does not take “marching orders” from the democratic party. In fact, the whole act blue movement was about challenging the party by promoting true progressives for office in competition with the “safe” democrats that the party preferred.
    .
    Contrast that with the right, where columnists and pundits clearly take marching orders and promote ideas according to a party script. That would be the definition of operative. And that is the farthest thing in the world from what Markos does.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Fair enough. But do keep in mind that people like Rove and Kristol issue the orders, prepare the source material and have taken the party over from others.

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